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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in.
- [00:18]
B
Well, first, Timothy never disappoints. And we're in week three. The Gospel saves the worst of us sinners, we. Which we all are.
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C
Amen.
- [00:31]
B
I want to start Pastor Joby with this question, and you. You spent some time on it in the message tonight. But the word law. You know this. We can talk. We're talking a lot about the law. What are some of the ways that the. The word law is used in the scripture? Because it's not always the same. Like, it's not always used to refer to the same thing, right?
- [00:51]
A
Correct. It's almost always, at least either the entire Hebrew scriptures or a portion of it, unless it specifically says, like, you know, the law of your conscience or something like that. But mostly it is. It is in. In totality. It'll usually be called the law and the prophets, but it means, like, the canonized scripture of what we would call the Old Testament. And then sometimes specifically, it's talking about the Mosaic Law.
- [01:17]
B
And you. You talked a lot about when Apostle Paul says it. We know that the law is good. That's the first phrase of this text. And there are people out there who are familiar enough with reformed doctrine who may have wandered into this negative view of the law. And that could have been. That could be. That could be striking this. This phrase, the law is good. So why would people think that it's negative or not?
- [01:43]
A
Because in Galatians, Paul says that we have died to the law, but he means in regards to salvation. So I spent a lot of time tonight talking about what the law is good for. The law is good as long as it is used lawfully. Or the law is good when you use it for its intended purpose, which primarily was to point us to a savior post salvation. It is good. Well, it's also good, even if you're not saved, to restrain a people. Again, you've got a slave nation coming out of Egypt. They ain't never been charged of anything. They don't know how to live with each other because they've been told when to get up, when to go outside, when to eat, when to go back home. Okay, so it restrains bad behavior. That's kind of the second role of the law. But then third, it is a guide on how to rightly live before a righteous God, you know, and then again there are, you know, people break it up in different terminology. It's almost all about cleanliness. The moral law would be like how to be clean before the Lord. The sacrificial law would be what do you do when you do unclean things? And then the social or religious law was some rituals that demonstrated what cleanliness looked like. And then most people will talk about when Christ fulfilled the law. The ritualistic laws no longer apply. Things like don't wear polyblend shirts and can't live by brackish water. But the moral law remains because our right standing before God, God still matters. And the way we live in the gospel matters.
- [03:23]
B
C. S. Lewis, one of his most famous books, maybe his most famous Mere Christianity, he talks about the law and.
- [03:31]
C
Just about moral law.
- [03:32]
B
So is that different than what Paul's talking about here? Like when you are talking to someone about, hey, that there are laws in the world or that the moral law of conscience, like, how does that fall into that conversation?
- [03:44]
A
Well, it's a part of the Mosaic law. I mean, there's nothing, you know, there's nothing in say, the Ten Commandments that would be outside of what we would consider the moral law. You know, you didn't create you. So really, even outside of a surrender to God, the first four would really be about pride. And then all the rest of them are how we were to live with one another. So that moral law, so what, what Paul will say, like in Romans 1, is that was written on the conscience of every man, so no one is without excus. Like, you know, it's wrong to kill people whether you saw it written on a tablet or not.
- [04:21]
B
Yeah, yeah. Isn't that funny how people who would say that right and wrong is socially constructed, you know, just to flat out in a deny what you just said. But it's like, it's pretty obvious that everywhere, everywhere there, there are people nobody likes their loved ones getting killed.
- [04:43]
A
It's fundamentally the same and only superficially different. So like in every society, there are laws about marriage. And you'd be like, nah, but this place, they have a bunch of wives, okay? But even if they do have a bunch of wives, there's still laws about who you can and can't marry and you can't take that person's wife and you can't marry your sister. You know what I mean? So the laws may be a bit different, but fundamentally they're all the same and they all boil back down to the, basically the Ten Commandments. And then superficially Some of them are a bit different. Yeah. And that's a part of what C.S. lewis's case is. He just starts with, where does that come from? Because we're not tuned to one another. We're tuned to something different than us, outside of us. And after about seven chapters, he ends up with Jesus on the cross.
- [05:31]
B
That's a fascinating way to think about law as, like. I think I've heard it once described as the fabric of the universe. Like the way things are. It's like the way things are. You know, go against the grain at your own peril. What you got to add there?
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A
Yeah.
- [05:47]
C
The whole time I was. You were talking tonight, there was a book written years ago. Well, by Rob Bell, and it was his first one. And in the. In the opening of it, he talks about. I think it was his first one, Velvet Elvis. It was the one that made him big originally. And in the opening, he's talking about theology in general, which is more than just the law, but he's talking about it, and if I recall correctly, he's talking about it as though it's a trampoline. He's like, you know, good theology's got a solid framework, but you can bounce up and down in the middle, and it's flexible. And I just remember that image in my mind. And that's the first big, like.
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B
Where.
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A
Are we going here, Rob?
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C
Yeah.
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A
To hell.
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C
On second, are we talking about secondary and tertiary issues, or are we talking about, like, you know, definitive primary things? Anyway, I think that's a lot of times how we treat the law is like it's a trampoline. Like, we want a moral law that keeps people from killing people that we love. Like, we want this broad, firm base, but when it comes to the details of the law, we want it to be very flexible in the middle. Especially in regard to me.
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A
Yeah.
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C
And how it applies to me. And I thought you did a wonderful job tonight of talking through just the impact and the implications of the law. And there's so much of the law that reveals. So much of the law is there. Yes, to reveal to us our condition. But really what we're looking into is a facet of God's character and God's nature. And that one is his purity and his perfection and his high and holy standard that he is not just that, that he holds himself to, but he actually is. But we're also looking at it from that he's a God of details, and the details matter, and that there's an inflexibility to the law. It is inflexible. It is not going anywhere. You can treat it like a trampoline only to find out that it's a concrete. It's concrete.
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A
Yeah. You don't actually break the law, you break yourself against it.
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C
Exactly.
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A
Disobey and watch what happens through your whole life.
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C
Yeah. Which I think is so fascinating when you get into the justice side of the gospel. Is it grace? Is it mercy? Is it peace? All the things that Paul writes about and we're going to talk about. Yes, but is it also justice? And is it not that singular thing that sets it apart in regards to its totality of a God doing something for the people? You know what I'm saying? Every other religion in the world is going to fall short somewhere on the justice thing. They may claim grace, but grace without justice is no grace at all.
- [08:28]
A
In Romans Chapter three, one of the most amazing lines in the whole Bible that just gets read over too quick, I think, is in Romans Chapter three, at the end of, like that, what Luther calls the most important paragraph ever written, you know, where he starts out by, you know, no one will be declared righteous by works of the law. And then by the end, he just says, he is the just and the justifier. I mean, that should make your head explode. And I've talked about this before, but if you look at the two beams that make up the cross, you see the just and the justifier. You see the justice of God because all sin must be paid for because he's a just judge. And to overlook sin would make him unjust. And he can't do it because he's not a liar, he's not unjust. You know, think about whatever the worst thing you can think of happening to the person you love most, and they catch the criminal and the judge is like, nobody's perfect. Don't worry about it. You'd be like, what? Okay, well, we've slapped the face of the infinite Almighty God and deserve to not breathe again. And so that sin will be paid for because he's just. And then the other beam, which Jesus's hands are literally spread open wide because he is the Justifier, because he would love you so much and demonstrate his grace. And then why a substitutionary atoning sacrifice? Because that. Can you think of a picture that would bring more glory to a holy and just God to be ultimately just and the only justifier to be perfect enough to live the perfect life and humble enough to be willing to die. That's some CS Lewis stuff from like three chapters after, when you Mentioned like, as you begin to think about that, because I can remember thinking, well, it seems kind of arbitrary that God, you made it this way and then did you paint yourself in a corner and you're like, dang it, now I gotta die. You know, no, no, no, no, no, no. There's no more. There's no more way for God to even be perceived as more glorious than ultimately just and ultimately paying the penalty for anybody that would receive his love. He is the winner on all fronts.
- [10:33]
C
I was thinking tonight, one of the things I thought would be, it'd be cool one day, one year to do if we did a preaching series on the covenants and just walk through the different Old Testament covenants. Because the law is so binding in its covenantal nature. Because. Because it's an outworking of the covenant that God made. You know, covenants. And that's when you think about the law of the word. Binding. It's binding to us, but it's also God binding himself to the solution. It is binding on God.
- [11:09]
A
Well, when he cuts cover him to give us the law, he walks through it by himself.
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C
Right?
- [11:13]
A
Yeah. Well, I mean, Paul's going to do this a lot in Romans. He's like, you, you, you. Judaizers. What are you talking about? The law? How did Abraham get saved? The law doesn't come till generations after Abraham. So was he not saved? And we know that his. His faith was credited him as righteousness. So what do you mean? He did not even have a 10 Commandments to obey yet.
- [11:34]
B
Right?
- [11:36]
A
They're like, oh, yeah, that's right. But it's. I mean, it's very similar to the. You know what a lot of Christians do. I didn't talk about this at all tonight. So they say, all right, we, we. So the Old Testament doesn't matter anymore. And our new law is the Sermon on the Mount. So you got to be kind, you got to be generous, you gotta pray, you gotta fast. But you can't tell nobody. And they just trade in another set of rules for a new set of more internal, less external, less ritualistic rules. And say, this is our new standard, which is a complete misunderstanding of the Sermon on the Mount. The way you know what a sermon is about is how does it start and how does it end? He starts with the Beatitudes. The first words are blessed are you who are poured in spirit. In other words, you're about to hear this whole sermon. And when you think, oh, no, I have hated my brother in my heart and I have a lusted after somebody I'm a murderous adulterer. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I pray in front of people because I want credit. Oh, no. I want credit for the giving that I've done. Dang it. I worry, like, you know, you're gonna get to the end of this, and then what wraps it up is. All right, you got two choices. You can build your life on the sand, which is your effort.
- [12:54]
B
Yeah.
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A
Or you can build it on the rock of that thing I told you about, which was the Beatitudes. Blessed is the me. Turn the reins of your life over to me and you won't ever fail. Ready? Break. And then we dummies, the church just substitute one law for another. So now it's not about don't get your stubborns cut. Now it's like we call it.
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C
We call it a kingdom ethic.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Instead of the law, you know?
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A
And it is. It is a mandate how you live when Jesus receive his love. But it's not a standard to reach in order to be one. And, dude, it's hard, man. We all have a tendency to think performance of salvation.
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B
Yeah. But the order is everything.
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A
Everything. I even mentioned it tonight, just to not, like, dunk on the law. Even the law itself comes post salvation for the nation of Israel. He doesn't give them the law in Egypt and says, if you pass, I'll get you out.
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B
Yeah.
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A
He says, I heard you cry. I save you. I am your God. You are my people. That's the declaration. And now, as a people, here's how we're going to live.
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B
That is literally in Exodus 20, I am the Lord your God, who brought you up out of Egypt. And now let me tell you how to.
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A
Right, we're at. And there's only one guy. Just. You'll have no other guys before me.
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B
That was so mind blowing when I. When I first saw that. Because for years, I spent years thinking that it was like that's. It was a different. He was doing it different back then, you know?
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A
Yeah. Now there is. I mean, you know, Moses brings the law and Jesus brings grace. There is an element of grace for all peoples that is unrealized in the old covenant.
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B
Right, Right.
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A
But everything's pointing to it. These aren't like.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Different things.
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B
And Paul goes to great. He goes to great lengths to make sure that we don't overstep as we're clarifying what the purpose of the law is that we don't overstep it to say that it's not good. Like in Romans, he said the law is holy and righteous and good. But even in verse eight, there, you know, if there's a big if there, the law is good if it's used lawfully. And you, you allude to some of these things, what are some unlawful ways.
- [15:08]
A
To use it for salvation? Or is it a measure to see if somebody else is saved? That it's not used as a sword of the spirit against the demonic, but a sledgehammer against a person, as binoculars to look at what everybody else is doing wrong, as opposed to a mirror also, it's like the example I used. If you try to use the mirror to clean your face, it's not going to work. So when you try to use the law to clean your sin, it's just not what it does. It's like an X ray machine, like an mri. It can just expose there's a problem, it cannot solve the problem.
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B
I don't know enough about the Greek there, but it almost seems like a turn of phrase, like the law unlawfully thing. And the next verse when he says it's not laid down for the just, but for the unjust. And I've often been curious about that. He's not saying that there are just people out there who don't count. He's saying. He's talking about how you see yourself. Right, the poor in spirit thing.
- [16:14]
A
Yeah, he's saying that. Well, I mean, you can use. The great thing about the Bible is we have other texts from Paul. So if you have been justified in Christ, then you have died to the law. In other words, it's not your guardian or babysitter anymore. You have the spirit of God in you and when you live the gospel infected life, you will live out much of the law as you pursue Jesus. Again, the example I gave is, dude, I'm not a drug person. So drug laws, it's like I'm dead to them because they have no impact on my life. Me and Gretchen don't do drugs. So we don't. It's not like we, we are not changing our behavior based on drug penalties that they pass. Okay? If you're not a murderer, the murdering laws, you're dead to those. They don't apply to you. You know now a part of what he means. He talks about this in Galatians when he says, I've been crucified with Christ, it's no longer I who live. Imagine I was a murderer and I go to the, I go to the courthouse and they say, guilty life in prison. And then I physically died in the courtroom. They're not going to put my dead body in the jail for life because my life's over. I'm dead to the law, right? Well, when you're crucified with Christ, then your sin has been paid for. So the penalty of your sin is covered. And now Christ in you leads you to walk in a. Paul will say this in Philippians in a manner worthy of the Gospel of Jesus. So this is why we see the law as good when we use it lawfully. So it's a map. It's a mirror to show us where we're wrong, but it is also a map to show us how to rightly like the law. It's like you said, the law gives us a clearer picture to the character and nature of God. So what does it say about poor people? What does it say about your wife? What does it say about your children? It will prescribe ways that we treat one another not for salvation, but we are saved to good works. How do you know what good works you're saved to? Well, this book is full of instructions on how to display God's character towards one another and towards him. So you share the Gospel of the lost, you forgive, you reconcile, you greet one another, all of these things.
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B
Yeah, I love that.
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C
Go ahead. To say the law is not laid down for the just. It is a way to say God did not give us the law merely for God's sake. You know what I'm saying? God didn't need the law in order to do whatever God wanted to do. And he's the only one that's just. And so he didn't lay it down for the sake of Himself only. He did. You know, does he get glory through the revealing of the law? Of course. But the point of the law was the later sentence which we'll get to was so that sinners could be saved by Jesus.
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A
Right.
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C
That's the point.
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B
Well, he's implying that. What's. He's implying that the misuse of the law is that people are saying they're using the law to prove themselves just right instead of the opposite. He. The law is not for that. The law is not to prove that you're just.
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A
So in Romans and Galatians, he more blatantly just says, he says that.
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B
Yeah, yeah. And I love what you said when you said, hey, good news, if you're perfect, you don't need any of the laws.
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A
That's right.
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B
You, you, you got it all covered. Guess what? There are zero people that fall in that category. One, one, one. And he still was punished for our sake. Now he goes. He goes on. And there are other places in Paul's writing where he gives a list like this. And I love. Where was it. We just studied it. Was it Galatians where he says. And things like this?
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A
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
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C
He always. He always gives the old. The old y', all, too.
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B
Yeah. So let's. Let's unpack a little bit more about the. This is not an exhaustive list. He's. He's intentionally choosing some things that cover some categories and sweeps everything together. They say whatever else is contrary. And Pastor Joby, you mentioned what we tend to do. I love the group photo thing. Talk about it again. The group photo thing about lists in the Bible. We do. We all do that.
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A
Yeah. When there's a list in the Bible, the first thing you do is like, am I on this list?
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C
How about zoom?
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A
Oh, you just look at yourself.
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C
I'm asking.
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A
Totally.
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C
Is that funny? When you're on zoom, you're, like, meeting with people on zoom, of which I'm zooming all the time.
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A
And you're like.
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C
And you're like. You're like, you're. Yeah. You're like. You're. Somehow your eyes just naturally go to your mug.
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B
Weird, isn't it? You tell yourself that it's because you don't want to look. You don't want to look dumb. You know what I mean? But then.
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C
Yeah, as if I have a choice.
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A
Exactly. Yeah. The example I was using is, so when you hit the list, the first thing you're. When you see the list, you're like, am I on the list? And it's like a group photo. You just. You look at you, and if you go, man, this is a good picture. What you mean is, I like the way I look, relatively speaking, in this picture. Yeah. Everybody else could have their eyes closed and look weird and have their mouth open. You're like, nah, this is the keeper. This is the one we're using. And then the next thing you do is people get super judgy about everybody else on the list. Isn't that crazy?
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C
I think this list is important in regards to really understanding first and Second Timothy, because I do think Paul is specifically speaking to things that he knows are being similar to the Corinthians. And when he writes to the Corinthians, he talks in lists about things that he knows specifically that they are struggling with.
- [21:46]
A
So I just turn to that, because, again, let's let Paul, like, be a commentator unto himself. Yeah, I agree. I think. All right, so a Lot of times when I'm preaching, if I get to like a personal application, I'll just kind of look around the room or if I'm like, you know, your past doesn't define you. And I make a list, it's cuz I can just look around the room and be like, abortion, divorce, you know what I mean? Like I can just go around the room. Okay, I think he's doing that. He says he's doing that in 1 Corinthians 6. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God and don't be deceived neither? And then here's the list and he lists a bunch of the same things. Sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy drunkards, evildoers, swindlers. And I think too when they're reading it, cause they're reading this in public at church and he gets to like drunkards and everybody like looks over at that guy, you know, and then he says, and such were some of you. This is not a theoretical. Let me just pull out of my mind some things I've read about people struggling with particular in this church. All of those people are represented and they have been saved.
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C
Well, don't you think that he's, he's preloading a little bit in regards to. Because he's gonna. Sentences later he's gonna talk about the qualifications for leaders.
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A
Yeah.
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C
And he's in this, the same, he's writing to leaders in Corinthians, to the leaders of that church who are gonna be the ones who get the leader the letter, stand up and read the letter, figure out how to apply the letter in their local context. And I think he's actually saying in Corinthians and some of you, like the ones that are actually going to receive this letter, you were a drunkard, you were on this list. And I think it's the same thing here in Ephesus, that. And he's preloading a little bit of like, hey, just to be clear, there are folks in Ephesus who have struggled with these things and if they're still struggling, love that. The aim of our charge is love. However, one of the qualifications for leaders is integrity and character and dignified and all the things that he's going to go to later. So it's all interconnected, you know, that's why it's like if you read five or six verses at one time, if you're going to listen to the sermons, listen to all the sermons from the Whole book. Don't just take the six verses and you see what I'm saying?
- [24:23]
A
Only here is something I noticed for the first time I read this. I wasn't smart enough to figure this out. He does go in order of the commandments five through nine. So strike your fathers and mothers. Number five is honor your father and mother murders. Number six is don't kill. Sexually immoral and men who practice homosexuality. Number seven is don't commit adultery. Enslaver is don't steal. That includes people which I was looking.
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C
A minute ago in Leviticus. It clearly says that in Leviticus. To your point tonight.
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A
Right, right, right.
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C
There is a verse that says don't steal humans. Some version of that.
- [25:01]
A
Yeah. And there's a difference. So like in Ephesians where it. Where it says some English translations will say slaves obey your master. And obviously if you've grown up in America your mind automatically goes to like transatlantic race based slavery and think what? Okay, but the word there is doulos. So bond. Servant is better because it was. It wasn't like a particular group of people were enslaved. Anybody could subject themselves to somebody as a servant to pay off a debt. That's different than stealing people. It's just different. We don't really have that kind of thing today. But it's not. So the thing that happened all over the world where groups of one race would steal another race and enslave them is forbidden as sin in the Bible. The only place you see that happening biblically was. Would be like Egypt did that to the Israelites and look at what God did to them. He wiped them out. Like it's not. Nowhere does the Bible condone what we think of as slavery. Yeah.
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C
There's still lots of people being stolen and trafficked.
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A
More than ever in the history.
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C
More than ever in the history of the world.
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A
The number one story on the news every night should be 300,000 kids were raped again today.
- [26:17]
C
Yeah, that's right. And it's Nothing more than 1 million crimes a day are committed online against minors. 1 million a day.
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B
Think about what I'm saying.
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C
So yeah, we have.
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A
There's something really dark and shady in our world because I mean I know some people personally that, that are. Dude, they try to fight against this and they get. And there's some powers that be that don't want it to go away. Like it's. It gets really weird in our country. I mean you get into like Epstein island stuff and some people that have been. I don't know, dude. And some cultish Stuff, it ain't good, dude. It is. Our battle is not simply against flesh and blood. There is a, there is a demonic stronghold for sure in that area. And I don't know how it's not the lead story on the news every day.
- [27:06]
C
I agree.
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A
And even, even movies come up about it and stuff like that, like begin to shine a little bit of light. And sure enough, man, there's like another force that tries to take out those people or like find some shady stuff in their past or. I mean, it's a. You know what I mean?
- [27:21]
C
Well, that's how evil wins when men and women don't stand up and preach and teach and lead and speak out against it. Right. If you think about the atrocities of the transatlantic slavery that you were talking about earlier, about how it wasn't on the front page of the newspaper as evil back then either. Tragically correct.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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C
And in the same way we have a whole different kind of slavery going on in our world through human trafficking that is as ignored and as naively. I don't want to say it's embraced, but it's out there happening to someone else. And I say that with no judgment because it's not like I'm thinking about this every day or praying into this every day like I should be. But when, as you were talking tonight, I was thinking, God break my heart for that.
- [28:11]
A
Right?
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C
Like how can we get more involved in that and how can we speak out more about that, you know, and, and because that's, that's. I heard. What got me thinking about was I heard another, a different Jordan Peterson interview earlier today and he was just talking about this. How do, how do you, how does evil take charge? Good people don't say anything.
- [28:35]
B
That's right.
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C
You just don't speak out when your conscience has been violated around good. Don't say anything. And then evil wins it. Paul's saying something here, not in this church.
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A
To slavery. Everywhere people have been treated with dignity. It was always led by Bible believing Christians.
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C
Amen to that.
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A
Everywhere.
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C
That's a fact.
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A
Right?
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B
You want to like, mind blowing lesson in faithfulness and diligence, study the life of William Wilberforce.
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A
No question, bro.
- [29:10]
B
What a freaking.
- [29:11]
A
But here's the thing, bro. He had such an impact on, on Britain. Not to just change a few laws internally, but at one point, man, they're sending out thousands of naval ships to the coast of Africa to put down slavery. I mean, many, many, many naval sailors in the British Navy lost their lives fighting against the enslavers that's different than just not in my house. That is. We're going to try to find the root of this and stop it.
- [29:47]
B
I don't remember how many years. If you don't know the story, he was in parliament in Britain trying to end slavery legally and, like, presented it and was laughed out of there. I mean, for 20 years. Right.
- [29:59]
A
Like.
- [29:59]
B
I mean, like a long time. And just kept going, kept trying, you know, kept.
- [30:04]
A
I had the only seminary professor I like. He. He was on the very front end. It's very appropriate for, like, Martin Luther King weekend. He was on the very front end of the civil rights movement in North Carolina, like late 50s, you know, and he. So he's pastoring a church and white guy in North Carolina and baptized a black lady. And it was a mess. And he just has this one line I just will never forget. He said, it's really hard to be right early. Eventually he's a hero. But, man, when you really stand on the implications of the gospel against the flow of the culture of evil, bro, you're gonna stick out, you're gonna get your nose busted, you know?
- [30:55]
B
Yeah.
- [30:56]
A
And a lot of times the easiest things to do is just go with the flow. Yeah.
- [30:58]
C
Well, thank God for him, no doubt. And for Dr. King and for William Wilberforce, and.
- [31:04]
A
Well, it works best when it starts in the church. Yep.
- [31:07]
B
You know, I want to thank you, Pastor Joby, for. For not m. For not passing over verses that. That might cause some questions or. You know, I'm sure there are churches out there who would skip verse 10 or maybe others in this text because they didn't want to deal with the emails or the questions. I would love to chat a little bit about specifically the topic of homosexuality, just because I think he talks about it. So when Paul's writing about it, it was a big part of the pagan religious practice. And some people today use that as a argument that what we're dealing with today is not the same. So this. They're saying, oh, what he's condemning here is prostitution. And to, you know, in today's world, it's consensual relationships. And those are acceptable. You know, so. Which I don't think is.
- [32:03]
A
Is true, but it's not what it says.
- [32:05]
B
It's not what it says in Greek.
- [32:07]
A
It just literally says men who lay with men. That's all it says. So what you have to do is. You have to start with. So the. The. The origin of what you are hearing, it basically comes down to authority. I don't know the person that through deep Bible study moved from, I think sex. Sex is a gift from God, between one man and one woman in the covenant of a God centered marriage. And then through deep Bible study, move to a place that says, you know what, I think I'm gonna be gay. It always goes the other way. It's either there's a person that they are or that they love or that they, you know, whatever. And so they've got an idea in their mind first which is their ultimate authority and then they're going to bend everything to support what they want to be. And in so doing that is not submission to God. It's just not. Yeah, so. And it's not like there's just a verse. I mean there's so many verses and it's outside. It's different too. Okay? It is different. Romans says that, well, Paul says in First Corinthians 6, Romans chapter 1 says, these are unnatural. This is against the creation of God. Now everything is busted and broken. I mean God's original design was that it was one man and one woman. And yet all of us have twisted sexual desire. Everybody's bent, right? My desires aren't unnatural, but they're ungodly. Then there's like another category. So it's not the exact same, but it does fall under the category of sexual immorality.
- [33:55]
B
Right.
- [33:56]
A
So insofar as every believer must surrender all of their desires to God, that's what it means, man. You want your life, you lose it, you take up your cross. So I just can't stand before, dude. Tonight on the, on the carpet there's a girl who at some point will tell her story. Just an incredible young lady. She's been with us for a couple of years now too, which is really helpful. She came in here just leading a full on homosexual lifestyle with a partner. All the things met Jesus, surrendered her. I don't, I don't have any, I haven't had enough discussions to talk about what her attractions are or any of that. But she loves Jesus, surrendered to it, and is being used by God to help folks in this world know who Jesus is and what it means to walk with him. How can I if I believe that this word is inspired by God and true and don't teach it. I don't get to say I love you like crazy at the end, right? You know, you just can't, man. And so I ain't trying to beat people up. I will tell you this, if anybody's listening is like, well, I don't believe that there are Plenty of churches you can go find that say, nah, they'll do it. They'll do a, they'll do gymnastics to say, here's what the words don't mean, what they say. It doesn't really mean what it means. The apostle Paul was not authoritative because there's no way a first century Jewish rabbi would say, yeah, two men can have sex together and it's fine, God blesses it. Do you think Paul thought that? Do you think Jesus who was a rabbi, do you think he thought that? So they have to go, no, I don't think so. But we know better than him because he didn't know. So he had a very limited understanding and all he knew was his own society. Which then means the Bible's not authoritative, okay? So it gets real shaky real quick, okay? All that to say, you go find you a United Methodist church that did not split off of the main thing, okay? And, and here's what you're going to also find, that they also don't think that the life, death and resurrection of Jesus is sufficient for salvation. They don't. They think that other man based ways will save you. Okay? That being said, you could be wrong about this one and go to heaven just like you might be wrong about some other thing, okay. You know, like, I don't know, some other, like baptism, Right. Maybe the, maybe the baby baptizers are right and we're wrong. Okay? But we can, we're still going to heaven because we trust Christ for salvation, right? You get the Jesus salvation thing wrong, you go to hell. And every other church that is going to waffle on this has already waffled on the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. In fact, they won't even like the words atoning sacrifice. And so it just all goes together, man.
- [36:52]
B
Yeah.
- [36:52]
A
And ultimately what happened is, well back to Sermon on the Mount. They built their theology on sand of their own idea and are trying to conform it to what they already believe versus building it on the rock. And again, man, it's not submission because you don't like it.
- [37:08]
B
Yeah, so you mentioned. I mean, so one error would be to, to say it's not what it means and, and to go this direction. Another error which you mentioned is to put a big old bullseye around it and to make it the thing that you just go, so how is that, how is that a mistreatment of the list here?
- [37:29]
A
Yeah, I mean it's the, it's the pick one, you know, to say, all right, just pick a different one. Be like you know, if, if you've ever. If you're a liar, then you can't get saved. Right. It's basically to say that there are some sins that are greater than the finished work of Christ on the cross. And we, the church historically has just picked on certain people and certain groups of people. Honestly, oftentimes it picked on the people by people that struggle with the thing that they wanted to pick on. You know what I mean?
- [38:03]
C
You find that a lot.
- [38:04]
A
You do.
- [38:05]
C
The people who were loudest against something.
- [38:09]
A
Trying to cover me.
- [38:10]
C
Yeah, there's, there's. Yeah, that's sad.
- [38:14]
A
I tell you, I'm amazed. The number of same sex couples that come to our church and just graciously I love. We're a moment for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus. I need, I want every single one of us, regardless of where you're starting, to discover your salvation in Christ and deepen your relationship with Him. And I want all of us to surrender all of our life to all of Jesus, period. That's all, that's the strippers and the, the drunkards and the, all the things and all the lists. If you put all the lists together. Yeah, such were some of us too.
- [38:48]
B
Yeah, the, the. I chuckled because we all went to churches where they would rail on certain sins but then go to the potluck dinner with.
- [38:57]
A
Oh yeah, you know, didn't hear a lot of gluttony sermons, pounds and pounds.
- [39:01]
B
Of fried chicken and pudding and all.
- [39:03]
A
Kinds of judgmentalism or.
- [39:04]
C
Well, you quoted some Barna stuff tonight and which. I think some of those tools have been really helpful, you know, over the years. But I was thinking about, I think I made these categories up if I heard them from somebody else. I can't remember, but there's kind of four types of Protestant. What would post Protestant Reformation churches call it the last 200 years? And you mentioned some of this tonight, but one is like a gospel centered church. You talked about that at the beginning that it's just the life, death and resurrection of Jesus as the point, the source, the reason, the why, the what, the how of all things.
- [39:43]
A
Right.
- [39:44]
C
So the church that is just centered on the gospel. It's like we read a passage of scripture. What does that say about the gospel? We read a different passage of scripture. How does that show us the gospel? We read a different passage of scripture. And so it's a theologically gospel centered, philosophically gospel centered, systematically gospel centered as best as it can figure out how to be.
- [40:03]
A
Yeah, right. Even grace driven effort, post Gospel to do stuff about it. Yeah, yeah.
- [40:07]
C
Which is what we are.
- [40:08]
A
We're trying to be.
- [40:09]
C
We're trying as we can, as gospel centered as we possibly can. There's another category which is what I would call gospel informed, which is they believe the gospel, the life, death, resurrection. But I would not call it gospel centered. I would. Maybe it's gospel adjacent.
- [40:25]
A
I don't know the right word, and.
- [40:26]
C
I don't want to get hammered for it. But it's the. It's gospel informed. They believe it at Easter, at Christmas. They give you a chance to surrender your life to Jesus. They even have some kind of invitation. But there's a lot of, like.
- [40:41]
A
Oh.
- [40:41]
B
There'S other stuff going on.
- [40:42]
C
There's a lot of other stuff going on. Worked at some of them. So I'm not, you know, I'll let it go there. And then the. Then there's like an. A biblical church, which I wouldn't put it completely in the unbiblical category, but it's a biblical in the sense that it's pop psychology and cultural redemption. And it's very like almost Eastern mysticism a little bit. You know what I mean? But it's shrouded in Jesus and gospel. But then there's the completely unbiblical.
- [41:16]
A
But that one, the. A biblical can. One of the ways I see it play out recently is every sermon is about how about how you can make it. Like, I know you're in the ditch, but tomorrow's gonna be better. I know you feel like you've been buried, but you just been planted. Like, that's every sermon.
- [41:36]
C
Something I've been thinking about lately. This may just be a pet peeve. And to. And I don't mean this to anybody on our team necessarily. It's.
- [41:44]
A
I.
- [41:44]
C
My first experience with it was actually at a different church or my first like. But isn't it funny that sometimes as pastors, we just generally assume that everybody that walked in is in some kind of ditch. Hard place. I don't know what you're walking in here with here today, and I don't know what you're carrying, and I just don't know what you're going through. But we're all going through something and we just. It's like. There's like a 21st century general assumption that you're sad and that you're having a really hard time in life and that you're.
- [42:14]
B
Meanwhile, we live in literally, like the best time in history, especially where we are.
- [42:17]
C
It's like dang Disneyland, man. And I'm not saying we don't have hard stuff going on, but is why is that the general assumption that everybody's trapped in a struggle versus, like, hey, sounds deep. I bet you came in here and you're having a great week.
- [42:32]
A
Yeah. Sounds deep.
- [42:33]
C
And that you're seeing God's blessings around every corner. That's it. Is that. Is that it makes us sound like we're empathetically deep.
- [42:39]
A
Also, I think a generation ago, they never acknowledged the people hurting, so the pendulum swung way too far over here.
- [42:44]
C
Yeah. Which I do think people are hurting.
- [42:46]
A
And I don't think if you. If you've ever recalled when I'm doing James 5, he says, anyone among you sick, let him call the elders. If you are rejoicing, sing songs of praise. So I'll do that. Some of you are having a great day.
- [42:58]
C
Let's do both.
- [42:59]
A
Yeah. So you need to be singing over all the people down here that need prayer. Okay. And then what's your last one? Unbiblical.
- [43:04]
C
The forest Gospel centered Gospel Informed. A biblical and unbiblical there. You mentioned the churches that have completely drifted.
- [43:12]
A
There's most of the mainline.
- [43:13]
C
You're unbiblical. You've abandoned the Bible.
- [43:15]
A
Yeah. You just do what you want. Yep.
- [43:18]
C
You have abandoned the Bible. The Holy Spirit has been grieved.
- [43:21]
A
Yeah. You ain't got a lampstand anymore, bro.
- [43:23]
C
Just makes me sad.
- [43:27]
B
You. You mentioned that when Paul uses this phrase, the saying is trustworthy and deserving, a full acceptance. That that's the signal of, like, hey, pay attention to this is like flashing neon sign. And what I noticed when I was reading and listening is that of course he says Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. The gospel. But it also has a huge dose of humility in there. Huge of which I'm the chief.
- [43:56]
A
And he goes on to tell why he says that. He's basically saying, listen, y', all, if God can save me, he can save you. What I love about it that it occurred to me, I don't know, a long time ago, is that Paul is an example of salvation for the saint and the sinner. I don't use saint biblically there.
- [44:15]
B
Right, right.
- [44:15]
A
Like, if you're really Good, see Philippians 3, resume. You need salvation.
- [44:21]
B
Yeah.
- [44:21]
A
Care how much you've been to church and when you got baptized and all that, you're not as good as Paul. And if you're really bad, I got really good news for you. You're not as bad as Paul and you. So it's like the most all inclusive example of salvation maybe in the history of the world.
- [44:37]
C
I don't know that I've ever met anyone that would argue with me on the, the indictment of being a sinner. I don't know that I've ever met anybody that'd be like, no, I'm not a sinner. Where the gap is in my experience is what, what does that require now to be done? Everybody, I got problems, I got issue, I'm a center, you know, but what does that actually mean and what can be done about it? That's where the gap comes in. That's what Paul's addressing here.
- [45:09]
B
They'll argue that they're a sinner, but not that bad.
- [45:13]
A
Well, great God graves on a curve, right?
- [45:15]
C
Yeah.
- [45:15]
A
And I'm gonna be in the top 20%. Yeah. And I'm definitely on the good side of the ledger.
- [45:20]
B
Yeah. That's what makes it shocking. He's like sinners and I'm the worst. Who says that they're the worst? A lot of people say, well, I'm not as bad as Hitler or it was somebody out there they can think of is worse. And we have a, we have a thing that we talk about with our staff team that's we walk in humble confidence. And so I think that there's a, a confidence in the power of the gospel, what Jesus came to do, and also his humility. If you're only focused on man, I'm just the worst of sinners. He probably won't proclaim that message of the gospel. Right.
- [45:52]
A
He also proclaims he's more than a conqueror.
- [45:54]
B
Right.
- [45:54]
A
Yeah.
- [45:55]
B
And if he's all just, if he's just full on confident with, with none of the humility, then he's not going to be able to, to relate to either one of those audiences.
- [46:05]
A
Who wrote Amazing Grace. Isaac Newton.
- [46:08]
B
No, no, no. John Newton.
- [46:10]
A
John. John Newton. Okay. Yeah, I know that wasn't right. Yeah. One of his last things he said, he was like, I'm losing my memory. I cannot remember much, but this I know I am a great sinner. And he is a greater savior. That was. He was. And then, you know, and that's the guy that wrote A Maze of Grace and he was a slave trader. Yeah, that, that's a bit of, that's very Pauline.
- [46:29]
B
Yeah. Later became a pastor.
- [46:32]
A
Yeah.
- [46:33]
B
After his conversion.
- [46:34]
C
Amen.
- [46:37]
B
So I love that.
- [46:39]
C
Usually goes better when you become a pastor after conversion.
- [46:43]
B
Yeah.
- [46:43]
A
We had a pastor get savior. Not on our staff. We did, yeah. It was amazing. Retired.
- [46:47]
B
I thought you're gonna say it's better to become a pastor after you've given up slave trading.
- [46:51]
C
That's true.
- [46:52]
B
It's also true. Did not do that after. So I love this. I received mercy for this reason. By the way, I noticed you know what chiasm is?
- [47:03]
C
I see it written there. I can spell it because you wrote it in front of me. But no, I don't know.
- [47:08]
B
I may. This might be wrong, but I. When he. Yeah, it's kind of like a reverse order sandwich. But when he says grace, mercy and peace, which talked about in week one, he then talks about like, hey, don't let the people argue about dumb stuff. Peace. I've received mercy from God because of the grace of God through the gospel.
- [47:29]
A
Did you also notice his, like, trinity of evil that are the opposites of the grace, mercy, and peace?
- [47:34]
B
Yeah.
- [47:35]
A
When he says what he is, he was the three opposites.
- [47:37]
B
Oh, yes, yes. But so he says, I received mercy for this reason. That in me, as the foremost of sinners, Jesus might display his perfect patience. You have this phrase, Pastor Joby, that you say, God can take your mess and turn it into a message.
- [47:55]
A
Yeah, the gospel message.
- [47:57]
B
Did you. I. I forget I was talking to this week, but we're talking about how we grew up in the youth group and stuff and had testimony envy.
- [48:06]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [48:07]
B
Did you ever. You never had testimony envy. You were the one that everybody who grew.
- [48:11]
A
Yeah, I spent a lot of time on my testimony.
- [48:13]
C
Let's continue.
- [48:16]
B
No, but that's true, right? Like, I mean, the. The all. How have you seen all the. All the crap? Like, he. He chose. He. I received mercy for this reason. That in me, I would display his perfect patience as an example to those who would believe.
- [48:34]
A
So I would say God can use whoever he wants to use and equip them in any way that he wants to equip them. But I do think a part of the reason that God would use a guy like me in a place like this is your average Jacksonville guy that has chased all the wrong things in this world and gotten them and found them wanting and heartbroken over it can connect with me, because that's me. And if they felt beaten up by a church, that's me. And if they, like, fell in love with Jesus but got really put off by churchy things, that's me, you know, Like.
- [49:20]
B
Right.
- [49:21]
A
So some brothers that are like, you don't know what I've done, bro, I probably do know what you've done and have probably done them. There's only a few Little categories out there in the. In, like, the big sins that wouldn't. That I wouldn't be able to check that box in my testimony days. But, yeah, man. And the Lord's like. And I just think. I really do. I think there's a lot of that at our church. A lot of that. Like, well, if God can save that guy, I think he can save me. We see in our testimony videos. Think about how crazy this is. In what world do you make an iPhone video in your car that's going to be shown in front of, like, 25,000 people in real life and another 50,000 people online and just freaking confess sins? Ain't another world where you're gonna be like, I'm gonna say out loud 10 things I'm ashamed of. And you just say it. But knowing that the gospel cleanses. You actually do it. And then the room stands up in cheers. We don't know. We don't have to tell anybody to cheer anymore. Standing ovation every time we do a testimony of baptism, bro.
- [50:23]
B
Yeah.
- [50:23]
C
Praise God.
- [50:24]
A
I mean, what we're. The only way that makes sense is what Paul's talking about right here.
- [50:28]
B
Yeah.
- [50:29]
A
Because the whole room's going, me, too.
- [50:30]
B
Exactly.
- [50:31]
C
I think that's the power of testimony, you know, like, the power of testimony is so much rooted in the promise of unity, that we're all in this thing together and that we're unified by something greater than ourselves. And as unique as your story is, you don't need to have testimony and be Pastor Vincke.
- [50:49]
B
I don't anymore.
- [50:51]
C
I know. I'm just saying. But I know that your story is as unique as your fingerprint, you know, and that God can only. Well, I love that thinking about that. And I say it all the time, that there's no. You're the only person who will ever have the chance to glorify God in.
- [51:07]
B
And through your life.
- [51:08]
C
You're the only one that gets to glorify God in that unique way. What a gift that is. But I think about. Pastor Joby and I were talking this morning, and we were talking about families and kids and all his sons in college and doing great and seems to be in a real great place. But I was. We were just talking about college and all that stuff, and I was like, bro, don't worry about anything going on with your son. When I was a sophomore in college, I was. And I gave testimony like, I was on academic probation, and I was an absolute train wreck. And you know what I mean?
- [51:40]
A
And you're exactly right in that Moment you're like, oh, gave me perspective, though.
- [51:45]
C
Yeah.
- [51:46]
A
Because, dude, you can get. You can get. So parenting you can get. So you can celebrate everybody's story at church and not, thank God isn't working your children because of some momentary event. And then if you get even worse, because then you want to talk about prideful parenting, the moment your first instinct is, what have I done wrong? Now you're the problem and the solution. Like, I mean, that's. Dude, I. We. Maybe. Maybe I'm.
- [52:16]
C
You're trained to think that in the Christian world.
- [52:19]
A
Yeah.
- [52:19]
C
If you're. If you're a pastor for sure, and your kids are acting up or whatever, you're trained to think you failed as a dad or you failed as a mom. Like, that's your. Your natural instinct goes to that or your trained instinct. So, anyway, I'm sorry.
- [52:32]
A
No, it's very helpful, though. Part of the reason testimony matters to your point, like, in disciple group is because it gives you a little perspective. And you're like, well, one. It can give you a hope because you see some other people where God has moved in similar situation gives you a little perspective. Like, I'm not this. In this alone. I can remember one time. Y' all know Cliff Long.
- [52:51]
B
Oh, yeah, bro.
- [52:52]
A
The first disciple group we ever started. When we got to. When we got to Jacksonville beach in 2001, our first friends were Cliff and Selena Long and one other couple. And we. This is how old this is. And we were like, bro, we need to do a small group. And so we would meet on Thursday nights, watch Friends, and then do Bible study. It was online. Like, it was like, new ones were still coming out anyway. I remember way early, bro, we're doing this. We've been like, three Bible studies together. And I'm the youth pastor, and they're everybody's youth workers and whatever. As we're like, all right. Prayer requests. And it's like, surface, surface, surface, surface. You know, and we're kind of faking, like we're being real. And Cliff is like, I just need you to pray for me. And lust I remember we're going like, geez, do. Your wife's sitting right here. You know, that's what I thought. And then I was like, I think we need to go again. And everybody's like, yeah, because we all just lied. Nobody shared anything that actually mattered. It was like, just pray for me because I'm, you know, I'm just a perfectionist or those kind of things. I try too hard.
- [53:58]
B
My great aunt has pneumonia and dumb stuff.
- [54:00]
A
Bro, that bro went first. And everybody was like, all right, what, are you scared that somebody would know or what do you not. You know what I mean? And him going first.
- [54:12]
B
Yeah.
- [54:12]
A
Shined light. And honestly, that group was really redeeming for a really long time because we really got into the guts of that. Because if you actually believe that Christ is your savior, what are you ashamed of now? I don't think you need to spend a ton of time glorifying the devil in the past and the sins of your past. That's not what you do. But to admit a current struggle is a really, really positive thing to do in light of the good news of the gospel.
- [54:43]
B
Yeah, that's true. In your career. I mean, like, you. I. I can look back and be like, hey, man, there's two years that I worked some random job with this guy and I learned this skill and I didn't have any idea why. And there's a point later in your life that you're like, well, that really comes in handy, like, thanks, Lord. You know, and I mean, people going through hard things, we do this right. As pastors referring others. Somebody's coming up to you and says, hey, I'm really struggling with such and such a thing. What do you do? Oh, so. And so went through that exact same thing. Get together with them. You know, they lost their husband or they've, you know, really struggled with infertility or whatever. We try to put those people together because there is power in that common. That common story.
- [55:24]
A
Yeah. And in Corinthians, Paul says a part of the reason, like, God's going to use your suffering to help other people experience peace.
- [55:33]
B
Yeah.
- [55:33]
A
That you are ministers of reconciliation.
- [55:35]
B
Oh, I love that.
- [55:37]
A
I mean, I talked to a dude and I grew up my youth group, man. Poor guy, he's awesome, man. And found his wife was cheating on him and he just went headlong and he was a part of a different church. And then he's found himself here, front row, worshiping with his hands. He's worshiping his way through the pain. And he just came out. He's in my youth group, man. Great guy. And just hugging him and loving him and. And he was. And he was just like, man, you know what one of the best things is? He's like, there's not an official group, but somehow God has surrounded me with some single dads that have been through divorce, raising kids right now, and they're just in this fight together, you know? Amen.
- [56:20]
B
Well, he ends with this, this little doxological love it phrase. You know, to the king of the ages, immortal and immortal, invisible. The only God be honor and glory forever. And so he's talking about his story. And if you're good, you can be saved. If you're bad, you can be saved. And it's all for the glory of God. But how is God's purpose in all things to glorify himself as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords? How does that shape our everyday life?
- [56:48]
A
Well, I think what he does. I mean, I. I'm probably reading me too much into this, but, like, I get it. I'll be preaching a sermon, and I've got notes, and I'm like, here's what I'm gonna do. And I'm trying to teach people about what the law is and what grace is. And then it gets real personal. And I remember, dude, it's what we were talking about last week, I think, and you were like, when I just think about Jesus hanging on the cross for my sins, it takes me to a place, it seems to me, a few times. He also does it in Romans. You know, there's a few times where Paul basically kind of starts re. Experiencing his salvation. You know, like he's. He's just sharing his testimony, and it swirls him up to worship, to a doxological statement about who God is. And even my salvation isn't about me. It's about him. And to him and him alone be the glory. And then he's like, amen. All right, hold on. I'm not even. I just. I'm not even done with the first chapter. I got a lot more to go.
- [57:46]
B
He probably wrote these letters a lot like you and Charles, right? You know, where he's kind of walking around or standing there and he's talking to some friends or whatever, somebody else writing. And so he's just like, man, he just. He's so patient with me. He's so good. And to praise the King of kings. And the guy's just like, over there, right? He's like, oh, wait, was that supposed to write? Yeah, I just leave it in there, you know?
- [58:03]
A
And then in Galatians, says, hey, will you sign this at the end? Yeah, Paul. Real big.
- [58:09]
B
See what large letters I write with? I love it. Well, I think we're out of time, but I love any closing words for somebody listening. I mean, the law is for you, so that the gospel can be for you.
- [58:27]
A
So back to your kind of doxology question. Regardless of what kind of church you grew up in or what kind of experience you had or maybe somebody unlawfully used the law or whatever. Well, the reality is, is that God is at work under his own glory in your life and all of your past and current circumst circumstances. But the only way for that to be really manifested in your own life is to know Jesus as your Savior. Like this is a trustworthy and true saying. Jesus came to save sinners.
- [59:02]
B
Yeah. You use the word redeem and that's what that means, right? Like when he takes it and it becomes the, the message of his glory, that's, that's redemption.
- [59:15]
C
Amen.
- [59:18]
B
Let's pray.
- [59:19]
A
Father in heaven, the law of the Lord is perfect reviving the soul. So God, we thank you for the good gift of your word and your rules and precepts and the law. Thank you so much that it would expose our need for you. And so God, may our knowledge of our own sinfulness just drive us to worship you and run to you and love you and know you. We pray this in Jesus name.
- [59:49]
B
Amen.
- [59:50]
A
Thank you for listening to the podcast the End.