Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin

Episode: The Law, Grace, and the Gospel - S18E3
Date: January 20, 2025
Host: Pastor Joby Martin
Podcast Description:
Pastor Joby Martin and his guests explore what Scripture means by “the law,” its role in the gospel, and how grace reshapes our understanding of obedience, salvation, and the Christian life. The episode centers on understanding the purpose and power of the biblical law, the meaning of grace, and how the gospel is good news for everyone.

Episode Overview

In this episode, Pastor Joby Martin and his two co-hosts (B and C) dig into the biblical concepts of law, grace, and the gospel, using Paul’s teachings (especially 1 Timothy, Romans, and Galatians) as their springboard. The conversation tackles misconceptions about the law, its continuing goodness, the way grace is both humbling and empowering, and how the gospel transforms individual lives and the church community. They address contemporary issues—like judgments in and outside the church and cultural confusion over morality—while anchoring their discussion in the redemptive heart of God’s word.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is "the Law"?

• Multiple Meanings in Scripture
  • The “law” can refer broadly to the entire Hebrew Scriptures or more specifically to the Mosaic Law (the commandments given to Israel via Moses) (00:50).
  • Sometimes refers to moral law, sacrificial/ritual law, or social laws.
• Intended Purposes of the Law
  • Shows humanity’s need for a Savior (01:43, 03:43).
  • Restrains evil (02:11).
  • Guides godly living (02:18).
    “The law is good as long as it is used lawfully... primarily to point us to a savior.” – A (Pastor Joby Martin) [01:43]
• Universality of Moral Law
  • C.S. Lewis’s view: Moral law is written on every human’s conscience, not simply imposed from outside (04:20).

2. Law and Gospel: Relationship and Tension

• Negative Views of the Law
  • Some Christians misunderstand "dying to the law" as law being bad, when Paul means it “in regard to salvation” (01:43).
• Law Remains Good but Cannot Save
  • The law exposes sin, not solves it: “If you try to use the mirror [law] to clean your face, it’s not going to work. ...It can just expose there’s a problem, it cannot solve the problem.” – A [15:07]
  • The law is not a means of righteousness or a weapon against others; it’s a diagnostic tool, not a cure (15:07).

3. Misusing the Law

• Unlawful Use
  • Treating law as a means of salvation, a tool for judgment, or a way to rank sins (15:47–17:13).
  • Using the law “as binoculars to look at what everybody else is doing wrong, as opposed to a mirror.” – A [15:07]
• The “Group Photo” Analogy
  • When people see biblical lists of sins, they search for themselves and then “judge everyone else.” – A [20:24]

4. The Law, Social Justice, and Cultural Context

• Slavery and Modern Injustice
  • The Bible forbids slavery as understood in American history; biblical “servitude” was different (25:01–26:07).
  • Pastor Joby highlights the ongoing, ignored evil of human trafficking (26:10–27:41).
  • “Everywhere people have been treated with dignity, it was always led by Bible-believing Christians.” – A [28:48]
• Wilberforce, MLK, and Early Stand for Justice
  • Stories of sustained, sacrificial effort by Christians to end injustice (29:08–31:04).

5. The Law, Sexuality, and Church Response

• Homosexuality in the New Testament
  • Paul’s original language in 1 Timothy and Romans is plain: “It just literally says ‘men who lay with men.’” – A [32:07]
  • Argument that contemporary Christian revisionism bends Scripture to personal preference rather than submitting to biblical authority (32:07–36:51).
• Gospel for All, Grace for All
  • The church is called to invite everyone, regardless of their starting point, into deeper surrender to Jesus (38:13).
  • Critique of churches that fixate on certain sins to the exclusion of others (37:28–38:04).
  • “I want every single one of us, regardless of where you’re starting, to discover your salvation in Christ and deepen your relationship with Him.... such were some of us too.” – A [38:13]

6. Law, Grace, and the Structure of Church Life

• Categories of Churches
  • Gospel-centered
  • Gospel-informed (“adjacent”)
  • “A-biblical” (culturally adapted, not fully scriptural)
  • Unbiblical (fully abandoned scriptural authority)
• “We’re trying... as gospel centered as we possibly can.” – C [40:08]

7. The Heart of the Gospel: Grace, Mercy, and Humility

• Paul’s Testimony: Chief of Sinners Saved by Grace
  • “Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners—of whom I’m the foremost.” (cf. 1 Timothy 1:15)
  • “If God can save me, he can save you.” – A [43:56–44:21]
  • Humble confidence: Christians ought to hold both deep humility and bold assurance (45:19–45:54).
• Famous Quote:
  • “I am a great sinner, and He is a greater Savior.” – John Newton, author of "Amazing Grace," referenced by A [46:09]

8. Power of Testimony and Church Community

• Testimonies publicly shared at Eleven22 demonstrate that “the gospel cleanses”—with authenticity leading to community celebration and solidarity (49:20–50:23).
• Sharing struggles in small groups breaks isolation and builds true fellowship (54:00–54:43).

9. God’s Ultimate Purpose: His Own Glory

• All salvation and redemptive work is for the honor and glory of God (56:48–57:46).
• Suffering, redemption, and testimony are all means by which God glorifies Himself in and through changed lives.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Law’s Purpose
  • “You don’t actually break the law, you break yourself against it.” – A [07:50]
• On Legalism and Grace
  • “We dummies, the church, just substitute one law for another. ... Now it’s not about don’t get your stubborns cut, now it’s ... a kingdom ethic.” – A [12:53–13:13]
• On Misuse of the Law
  • “It’s not used as a sword of the spirit against the demonic, but a sledgehammer against a person.” – A [15:07]
• On Heart of the Gospel
  • “If God can save me, he can save you.... It’s like the most all-inclusive example of salvation maybe in the history of the world.” – A [44:14]
• On Redemption
  • “God can take your mess and turn it into a message.” – A [47:54]
• On Community
  • “The power of testimony is so much rooted in the promise of unity.” – C [50:31]
• On God’s Glory
  • “Even my salvation isn’t about me. It’s about Him. And to Him and Him alone be the glory.” – A [56:48]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Defining the Law and Its Purposes: 00:50 – 04:20
• Conscience, Moral Law, and C. S. Lewis: 03:22 – 05:30
• The Law Restraining and Revealing Sin: 06:56 – 07:54
• Law as Mirror & Misuse of Law: 15:07 – 17:13
• Church and Social Justice, Slavery: 25:01 – 29:46
• Homosexuality, Biblical Authority, and Church Witness: 32:02 – 38:48
• Gospel-centered vs. Other Church Categories: 39:43 – 43:26
• Paul’s Humility & The "Chief of Sinners": 43:56 – 45:54
• Testimony, Community, Transformation: 49:20 – 52:32
• Final Doxological Reflection (God’s Glory): 56:19 – 57:46

Conclusion

This episode unpacks the biblical law’s purposes—pointing to Christ, restraining evil, and revealing God’s nature—while warning against misusing the law for legalism or secular moralism. The hosts call the church to a gospel-centered identity, rooted in humility, radical grace, honest community, and concern for the marginalized and suffering. Through Paul’s teachings and their lived experience at The Church of Eleven22, Pastor Joby and his co-hosts invite listeners to deeper surrender, richer community, and worshipful wonder at God’s redeeming love.

“Even my salvation isn’t about me. It’s about Him. And to Him and Him alone be the glory.” – Pastor Joby Martin [56:48]