The Meaning of Christmas - S17E6

Summary

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Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin

Episode: The Meaning of Christmas (S17E6)
Date: December 23, 2024
Host: Pastor Joby Martin with Church of Eleven22 team

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Episode Overview

In this special Christmas episode, Pastor Joby Martin and team delve deeply into the real meaning of Christmas, exploring how the incarnation of Jesus speaks to the human condition, especially amid suffering, loss, and the busyness of the modern holiday season. The conversation weaves together personal stories, biblical insights from Luke 2, theological reflections on the Incarnation, and reflections on grief, waiting, and grace—unpacking why “What Child Is This?” is still the most important question at Christmas.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Pain and Pressure of Christmas ([00:41]–[08:59])

• Main Idea: Many people come to Christmas carrying grief, pain, or loneliness. The busyness and expectations of the season can distract or even obscure the central message of Christ’s coming.
• Pastor Joby highlights how even amidst a “merry” atmosphere, many are suffering: “Pain can often blur your vision to the Lord, especially when the whole vibe in America is Merry Christmas.” ([02:07])
• Pastor Brit shares personal grief about losing his mother at Christmas, connecting it to the hymn “What Child Is This?”—originally written from a place of pain.
• Grief’s Process: The team discusses how grief begins with “why” questions and, with faith, shifts to “how can God redeem this?”—referencing Romans 8:28 and the choice to allow God to redeem rather than redact hard history ([05:14]–[07:38]).
• Faking Wellness: The pressure to “put on a face” at church is real; faking it too long leads to being “loved for a version of you that isn’t known.” ([09:07])

  “To be known and not loved, that’s rejection. But to be loved and not known is fake. …when you fake it, then you can’t actually be loved because you’re not known.” – Pastor Joby ([09:21])

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2. The Real Historical and Social Context of Jesus’ Birth ([12:03]–[29:12])

• Historical Reality: Luke 2 is not a fairy tale but rooted in verifiable history:

  “This is an actual event that can be documented in historical reality. …Not a fairy tale in a galaxy far away.” – Pastor Joby ([13:09])

• Rome and God’s Timing: Caesar Augustus, the most powerful man, is now just a “footnote” in the story of Jesus—a reminder of God’s sovereignty and the upside-down nature of the kingdom. ([13:23])
• Center of the World: Jesus was born not in Rome, the center of power, but in a poor, insignificant place, to poor people.

  “He was like a little poor kid born to poor people in a poor little place.” – Pastor Joby ([18:15])

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3. The Significance of Shepherds ([20:55]–[28:03])

• Shepherds as First Witnesses: God’s first announcement of Jesus’ birth goes to shepherds—outsiders, marginalized and “nobodies” in their world ([21:28]).

  “From the highest high of angelic host to the lowest low of shepherd boys…God is truly no respecter of persons. If you are a person created in the image of God then God treats you as very, very valuable.” – Pastor Joby ([21:28])

• Swaddling Clothes and Lamb Sacrifice: The detail of the baby wrapped in swaddling clothes resonates with shepherds who swaddled spotless temple lambs for sacrifice, highlighting Jesus as the Lamb of God ([24:07]–[24:43]).
• Good News for All: The gospel’s message is for “all people”—breaking social and religious barriers.

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4. The Theme of Waiting and Fulfillment ([29:12]–[36:44])

• Presentation at the Temple: Even Jesus’ family submitted to the law, fulfilling prophecy and demonstrating faithfulness. Simeon and Anna, who had waited faithfully, saw the coming of the Messiah.
• Advent and Waiting for Christ: Advent is more than remembering Christ’s first coming; it’s also about waiting for His return ([34:42]–[36:10]).

  “We have Christmas built in to think about the Incarnation…But we don’t have the other Advent, waiting for His return.” – Pastor Joby ([34:39])

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5. The Deep Mystery and Good News of the Incarnation ([39:06]–[47:44])

• Jesus, Fully God and Fully Man: The Incarnation means God became man—as one speaker puts it, “the King of all glory straight put on a skin suit.” ([40:41])
  • Jesus subjected Himself to time, boredom, discipline, human limitation, temptation, and suffering.
• Why Did God Become Man?

  “The biggest shift there is the Incarnation, stepping out of heaven...he humbled himself and became obedient to being a human. Like, he cried. He got real sad and cried.” – Pastor Joby ([43:12])

• Not a Reaction: The incarnation was part of God’s plan “before the foundation of the world” ([46:54]).
• Redemption by Becoming One of Us: Only by assuming humanity could Jesus redeem humanity ([43:39]).

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6. Christianity’s Uniqueness: Grace Over Works ([50:25]–[54:36])

• Grace, Not Performance:

  “Christianity is the only belief system…that claims that God came here to get us, to take us there. Everything else is, we must make our way there.” – Pastor Joby ([50:42])

• C.S. Lewis Anecdote: On religious studies, Lewis distinguishes Christianity by grace—not just superficial similarities ([51:54]).
• Who Do You Say I Am?: Christmas asks the question: “What child is this?” which is really, “Who do you say that I am?”

  “He said, I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life…every other world religion and belief system makes truth claims. Jesus’s claim is him.” – Pastor Joby ([53:12])

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7. Final Encouragements and Prayer ([57:53]–[59:51])

• Treasure These Things: Just as Mary “treasured these things in her heart,” listeners are invited to cherish and trust God’s plan, despite the messiness of life or the season ([57:53]).
• True Joy at Christmas: Presents and outward merriment are fleeting; lasting joy comes from trusting God’s sovereignty and love ([59:23]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Grief and God’s Redemption:

  "You have a choice to either redact history or to allow God to redeem it. ...God will redeem. That’s Romans 8:28." – Pastor Brit ([05:14])

• On the Humility of Jesus' Birth:

  “If the King of Kings is born as a king...everybody would be confused and try to. Jesus said, I did not come to be served, but to serve. But if you’re the king, then every, the whole system would be set up to serve you.” – Pastor Joby ([17:46])

• On Grace and Religion:

  “They say, ‘all religions are fundamentally the same and only superficially different.’ [C.S. Lewis] erases it, writes ‘grace’...‘No, no, no. They’re fundamentally different and only superficially the same.’” – Pastor Joby ([51:54])

• On the Incarnation:

  “Jesus, for the first time in his existence, had to wait on something.” – Pastor Joby ([40:36])

• On Faking Wellness:

  “To be loved and not known is fake. ...they love a version of you that you’ve put forward, and you know that.” – Pastor Joby ([09:21])

• On the Uniqueness of Christianity:

  “It’s God with us, not us with God. Grace is the game changer.” – Roundtable ([52:10])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening Challenge: Why We Miss Christmas [00:41]–[03:03]
• On Grief and Holiday Pain [03:43]–[07:38]
• The Cost of Faking It [08:59]–[10:27]
• Jesus’ Birth: Historical Context [13:09]–[18:15]
• Shepherds as First Witnesses [21:28]–[24:43]
• Continuity with Old Testament Prophecy [28:42]–[30:49]
• Simeon and Anna: The Importance of Waiting [32:43]–[36:44]
• The Deep Mystery of the Incarnation [39:06]–[47:44]
• Christianity’s Uniqueness: Grace [50:25]–[52:10]
• Final Reflections and Prayer [57:53]–[59:51]

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Conclusion

This episode invites listeners to:

• Embrace honest reflection and grief in the presence of Christ
• Recognize the astonishing humility of Jesus’ incarnation
• See the radical, inclusive invitation of the Gospel
• Treasure God’s grace and presence above holiday traditions
• Respond to Christmas by answering, “Who do you say Jesus is?”

Final Encouragement:

“Wherever you are right now, I pray that you would treasure these things in your heart. That God loves you and has a plan for you. …the holidays are a great time to focus our attention on the sovereignty of God in the midst of a mess and to treasure those things.” – Pastor Joby ([57:53])

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Merry Christmas from Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin!

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in.

[B]

We are in this series when he asks, which I think has been awesome. Don't you love the questions?

[C]

It's been great.

[B]

And this one, we had a little bit of a different approach. So for all your purists out there, Jesus didn't actually ask this question.

[A]

Well, he did. He asked. We. We handled one of his questions.

[B]

We. We.

[A]

We.

[B]

Yeah, we took two questions. It was a very. It was a very good combo of circuitous rally. Yes. Yes. I love Pastor Joby. When you said you're. You're introducing the concept of why we would talk about what child is this? And you said, it's kind of like saying, what in the world does all this Christmas stuff have to do with my life? So Christmas comes every year. It seems to be busy for most people, and there's an opportunity to understand the most important message in the world. And yet it's often missed. So you work very hard every time on Christmas to make sure we don't miss it. But why do you think it's so often missed?

[A]

Well, generally speaking, it's missed just because of the busyness that the Christmas season brings. And you can kind of be Christ adjacent but not focus on Christ, sing songs about him, watch movies about Christmas, yada, yada. But the reason I thought about that intro while we were singing and I was tonight was packed, and I'm looking around the room, and I know stories. And then I thought about the guy that wrote the hymn. And what led him to write the hymn was like, sickness, pain, and depression. And you don't get to choose what happens to you, but you do get to choose how to respond.

[B]

Love that.

[A]

And I'm looking in the room, and there's one half of a couple that I know, and they're getting divorced because of infidelity, and there's a dad with cancer. And we buried Frank today. And it doesn't take me very long to look around the room and kind of. It just lands on me. There's a lot of people that are coming to this Christmas. Like the guy that wrote the Christmas Carol, what child is this? You know, in pain. And so anyway, that's. Pain can often blur your vision to the Lord, especially when the whole vibe in America is merry Christmas. I don't know where I didn't have time to look up like where that, like why don't we say Happy Christmas or joy filled Christmas. We say Merry Christmas. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, it's a weird, like this mashup time. Because I do think we're wired for hope and expectation and we put all those hopes on like the perfect get together or Christmas morning presents. And yet, you know, Pastor Brit, you're good at talking about grief, so maybe you have a comment here. But grief is a funny thing because it's never gone, you know, and so when you make memories, the thing about making memories is that when things change in your life, someone's gone or you're not married anymore, then those memories then become all mixed in with the times.

[A]

Of year, you know, and the holidays amplify it for sure. Yeah, Like Thanksgiving, man, we had the best Thanksgiving. My whole family went to the retreat center and it was so great. And all I could think about was my grandma. She's been dead, but that's, you know, you miss her. That's not tragedy. She was 90 something when she died. She loved the Lord, so that's not a tragedy at all. But oftentimes Christmas take me to like in high school, our family situation was not good. And it was most amplified at Christmas. You know, Christmas really puts a magnifying glass on family pain a lot of times.

[C]

Yeah, I think. Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry.

[A]

Well, and then even after that, you know, you're a 17, 18 year old kid and then now, now you got two Christmases, right? Or like one of our favorite Christmas movies, four Christmases. It's complicated, right? A spoiler is what I did. That's my favorite line.

[C]

Put a roof overhead, never lied to her face. Spoilers what I did.

[B]

That's a great line.

[C]

Robert Duvall, man, he's a classic. Yeah, I mean the thing about the holidays in grief, you know, for me is a huge part of my story. I've shared it at our church. But the last time my mother left our house was December 26th of 1995. She died in early January of 96. And I was young, my brother and I were both young. And I mean that kind of just ruined Christmas for a lot of years.

[A]

And.

[C]

You know something, I've been thinking about a decent amount. 2 thoughts in regards to grieving. You know, maybe it helps encourage some folks. We talked about this today at Eamon Frank's funeral, was that the process of grief is a growing process if you'll allow the Lord to work in it. And it happens slowly. But you start with a bunch of why questions. And the why questions are, why did this happen? Why did this happen to me? Why did this happen to this person? They didn't deserve it? Or why at this time, why so surprising? Or why so much suffering? There's just all these why questions that are on the front end of grief and very all appropriate and all meaningful questions that need to be asked. But over time, if over time, through faith, if faith is in the middle of it, why will turn into how questions? And the how questions are, how can this be used to be a blessing to other. How can God use this chapter in my life for something more significant than just than my hurt? As significant as it is, how can I learn the lessons that I'm supposed to learn? How can I. And I think the thing I've been thinking a lot about is that you have a choice with grief, especially grieving loved ones or grieving loss of relationship or grieving like, you know, real grief. You have a choice to either redact history or to allow God to redeem it. So you can go back and try to like, just chop out all the hard stuff and the, and the painful stuff and put it in some category you don't deal with and try to like, only redact your memory to the positive things, or you can be trapped in all the negative things. Right? But your choice is try to redact history. And I think there's a better road. And the better road is to allow for God to redeem the situation, because he can and he does. That's my story, is that through my relationship with my wife, through God giving me two beautiful kids, the Christmas has been completely, this time of year has been completely redeemed by the gift that they are and God's grace that's revealed through it. And so God will redeem. And that's Romans 8:28, that God is at work in all things for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose. And so it's just, you know, where are you? Are, are you closer to the wise side of grief? Or are you. Is God moving you gently to that, to the how questions and allowing for him to do that makes all the difference.

[A]

The only reason I shared a little bit about my family situation when I was in high school and Christmas that sit that like having to. In case you don't listen to the sermon, my parents were in the process. They were separated but not yet divorced and hadn't told anybody. So we had to like put it all together and go to grandma's house and act like a family. And, you know, that can be harder than just being honest about the pain that's happening for sure. And then you get these little hopes of, like, oh, maybe the Christmas miracle is going to happen. It's all going to work back out. So I. I'm in no way wanting anybody to feel sorry for me. I don't feel like I conduct myself as a victim. I just wanted people to know. I get it, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I know several families right now, and they're not doing anything wrong. Some things have very recently come to light in their family that are not public knowledge. And they're all sitting in church with a smile on. And if you ask them how they're doing, they're not going to throw up on you. And they're not lying, but they're going to say, we're fine, because you're not. You're not in the trusted group of people that they've chosen to share some of this stuff with yet. And that can be. One of the hardest things in the world is to. Is to show up to your church and just put the smile on. And, you know, and. And I at least want people to be honest with the Lord and their mat carriers, you know, that. That beginning. So that's why I mentioned it.

[B]

What will it cost? What does it cost over the long term if. If you fake it like that? Too long.

[A]

Man. Speaking of Frankie's funeral, dude, his kids rocked it.

[C]

This is great.

[A]

I've done a bunch of funerals. I mean, they're all so smart, and they're. They're. I don't know what the youngest one is, but.

[C]

21.

[A]

Yeah, 22, but good gosh, they did so good. But one of them had a Tim Keller quote that I'm gonna butcher as his niece. Yeah, yeah. She's the one that quoted, like, to be like. Basically our heart's desire is to be loved and known, to be known and not loved. That's a big fear, right? Because that's the. That's rejection. But to be loved and not known is fake. And so when you fake it, then you can't actually be loved because you're not known. They love a version of you that you've put forward, and you know that. Like, do you realize that? And then what. In my experience, what begins to happen is the enemy come along, comes along and whispers, what is actually true about that? Well, if they really knew these things about you, then they. Then they wouldn't be your friend or your spouse or Your loved one. And so, I mean, one of the amazing things about the, the holistic gospel is that God fully knows you and loves you.

[C]

The past has a really strong hand. And if you allow for the past to take a grip over your life, it will. And you can just live in things that have happened to you. And every conversation runs through the filter of those hurts and those pains. And those could be deep family hurts, those could be work hurts, those could be whatever. But if your brain stays in the past, then the past will grab ahold of your filters and your thinking. It's really, really, really tough to get the past to let go when it grabs on.

[A]

And in our hyper therapeutic society, that is a real thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But you can't ignore it. The only way forward is through it and through it with trusted people, with believers, with the power of the Holy Spirit, you know, and yeah, the other.

[A]

Extreme is you live so far ahead in the future, you never have GR Gratitude for today. Today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you're not living in the mercies that you have today because you're looking forward to what's happening tomorrow. You never. Your gratitude list is very, very small because you don't wake up grateful for what God is doing today. You're always just, you know, you don't have this, this contentment with godliness. It's a real gift because you're. Everything's in the future. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, is that control? Does that come from control, what you're talking about?

[A]

I don't know. I think it's more of a manifestation and it could be one of the four deep idols of that Keller talks about, you know, could be applause, could be comfort, could be control, could be fear driven.

[B]

We're going to talk a little bit more about how what we celebrate at Christmas, you know, Jesus coming redeems so much. But let's look at Luke 2 just for a second and. And there's like kind of four major movements of the chapter. We didn't cover all of them, but there's a lot to bring out. We did cover this first part and it's funny, I think every Christmas I hear a different pronunciation of Corinus. Qu.

[C]

Quinus. That's how.

[B]

Querus Quirinius. The. Yeah, that guy.

[C]

I know, I know it.

[B]

You know it.

[C]

Yep. Never question it again.

[B]

Good job. You're welcome. I'm just saying. I. I'm just saying I hear different people say it different, that's all. Anyway, when it says that Caesar Augustus decided that all the world would be registered, there's A lot. That's loaded with a lot of stuff. Right. This is talking about the imperial rule of Rome over the world that Jesus is born into. So what's the significance of that world?

[A]

How about a. This is an actual event that can be documented in historical reality. This is not a fairy tale in a galaxy far away, a long time ago. This is not actual God, an actual place.

[B]

Because you can look at different historical records and know exactly when that was.

[A]

Yep. One of my favorite things is that if you were asked Caesar Augustus, who's the most important person on the planet right now, he would be like, I am. I have the authority to say move. And the whole world has to move. And then just a little while later, 2,000 years later, he is but a footnote in the story of this baby born in a manger. He is not big deal. He is not the main actor. He is a very, very minor supportive role.

[B]

So that's part of what Luke is doing. Right. And he also is. That's. That reminds me of when you read the genealogies in Scripture. Right. Similar, similar point there of like being able to trace it and, and the accuracy there. It's written by Luke. He's a very detailed writer.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, he says, you know, he tells Theophilus in Acts. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm going to give you a very detailed account of all the things he's very detailed oriented. It's interesting, man. I was listening to these two guys on Joe Rogan that are like geologists, archeologists kind of guys, and they're talking about the rocks and the pyramids and all this. It's incredible. Okay. The one dude is like, listen, I didn't grow up in church. I'm not a Bible thumper. I studied this stuff long enough. And the most trustworthy source document I can find to describe anything I'm looking at is the Bible. And, and he's like, I'm, I can't believe I'm even saying this right now. He's like, when I was in college, I'd argue with all those nuts, you know, but this dude is incredible. To listen to these, these guys and they're, you know, they're, they're talking about how the flood impacted all the things in archeology. And, and it's, it's, it's kind of like that. It's, it's like this, this is actually historical reality. That's a big part of it.

[C]

Well, it's an interesting note in, in as we head Toward talking about the incarnation in part of the what child is this? Is this the most shocking. The most shocking part of the way Jesus came was that that's the way he chose to came to come, you know what I mean? Like, in poverty and like, we're nowhere near in the landscape of the world. And a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world, by the way, that all the world should be registered. Rome was the world, and they were not too far from. They're just picking fights and taking over and picking fights and taking over and picking fight and doing a pretty good job of it. 1.5 million kilometers over 1500 years. They ruled. Yeah, this is impressive. This is an impressive run they had, but this is.

[B]

That one was. This is the point of that. I forget the name of it. There was this one civilization that they're like, we're going to take you over. Like, no, we have this island that we're going to go to, and you can't reach us here. And they go to the island. Room's like, cool, we'll just build a bridge there. And they just started, like, knocking rocks down and filled the entire channel until they just walked over and conquered it.

[C]

I mean, same thing with Masada, for sure. So there's a little mountain side in. In Israel called Masada. It's where they get the word Mossad from the Israelis, Their. Their special forces in the Mossad, you know. And Masada was a plateau. And when the Romans were taking over, these people were resisting, and they lived up there for years, resisting. And Rome was like, we're coming. And they just started building a land bridge from the ground up to the top of the mountain. And four years, these people stood on top of this plateau, watching Rome build a mountain to come and take them. And then as soon as the Roman armies came to take over their fortified little town on top of that plateau, they all killed themselves because they'd never be slaves again. And you can go visit this place today and hear the story. It's wild. It's a wild thing. That said, what's interesting about it is that we're nowhere near the center of the world at this point in time. Rome is the center of the world. Rome's the most important city in the world. And we understand that Jesus had to be born in Bethlehem in accordance with prophecy. But it wasn't like when God spoke that prophecy into existence, the number of times that he did it, that he didn't know that Rome was going to be headquarters at that point in time.

[A]

You Know, at just the right time.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Also, I think. I mean, think about it. You know, if the King of Kings is born as a king, then I'm sure everybody would be confused and try to. Jesus said, I did not come to be served, but to serve. But if you're the king, then every. The whole system would be set up to serve you. I mean, so everything he does is on purpose, on time, just right. I mean, just humanly speaking, could you have created a bigger movement? It's the biggest movement in the history of humankind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he was like a little poor kid born to poor people in a poor little place.

[C]

There's a gap I've never closed in study. I probably should look into it. But, you know, King Herod, the wise men come and make themselves known to Herod, and they're like, we're looking for the king, the fulfillment of the prophecies. And Herod's like, oh, okay, let's just kill all the firstborn kids, just in case.

[A]

Two and under, right?

[C]

Yeah, two and under. Male. All the males and from. But Herod dies shortly after that. From the time that Herod died to the time that Jesus was. You don't really ever hear about that genocide again, you know, so the. The folks that took over after Herod, like, you got to wonder, like, did they ever. Somebody ever raise their hand and be like, hey, did we actually kill the. The one that Herod was trying to kill? Do we have any proof that this did anything? Isn't that interesting? They just kind of vanished out of history.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe it was not that uncommon, like a mass killing for the sake of his whims. I mean, he was a wicked dude.

[C]

Wicked. They all were.

[B]

So another thing that I read recently, which I thought was interesting, like, there's a lot of these. There's a lot of these Western. Like, we have these modern visuals of a lot of this stuff, especially on the Christmas story, that are incorrect. Like, it probably wasn't like, Mary and Joseph just, like, walking through the desert with a donkey heading to Bethlehem. Like, it's probably like a huge group of people for sure, because they did everything in, like, clans. And so if it was like, his whole family had to go back to their ancestral city, then it wasn't going to be like, all right, well, you go first, you know, and you're off alone by yourself. So they went there to register for some reason. They couldn't have, like, mailed it in, I guess, but they just had to go there. And then she gives birth to Jesus. I Love what you said, Pastor Joby, about prophecy and arrival. I think it really resonated with the Amazon illustration because it. Because it being Christmas time, because Amazon's coming to my house about every day. The second thing happening here is that.

[A]

I. I've used that before. But the first time I ever used the illustration is because it literally, like I would. I was working on sermon one night in my living room, and I clicked like a buy now, you know, next day delivery. And then the next day I was sitting in the same spot on my computer again. I hear ping dong. And it's like, your package is here. And I was like, this is like Christmas, you know, so if. Yeah, the announcement is better than the prophecy.

[B]

Yeah. So the. The arrived an angel comes to shepherds. And you talked about this. I mean, that's. That's incredibly significant. I mean, so not only do we have this major world power who thinks he's, you know, God, and now the whole world's being registered, but we're for some reason hearing about this town in Nazareth now. You have an angel, a messenger from God, shining light in the middle of a field to these other unknown group of people, shepherds. You know, what's the significance of that?

[A]

I mean, to put it in our context, when we say we are movement for all people, God is. I mean, this is the perfect example from the highest high of angelic host to the lowest low of shepherd boys who cannot. They can't even give testimony in a court of law because they don't have a permanent address. They would have been the nobodies, you know, the day laborers. And God's like, yeah, I'm going to make my announcement to these people, and they're going to be the first witnesses of this. It's kind of like the women at the empty tomb. They didn't. They also could not give testimony in a court of law. And so God is truly no respecter of persons. If you were a person created in the image of God, then God treats you as very, very valuable. Not. Not based on your socioeconomic status or your race or ethnicity or where you came from or what you've accomplished.

[C]

A long time ago, I went and spent. I was in North Africa, in Morocco, on mission for a little while with a missionary family that lived there. And one of the missionary families, one of the things that the husband would do is he would go out and minister among Bedouin nomadic tribes. And they were shepherds, and they moved around, packed their tents up and. And he would go and live among them for days. At a time. And, and dude, you talking about rough. This is a rough way to live. Yeah, I mean, you go over there right now to, you know, North Africa and the Middle east and you can be driving around, touring, looking at whatever, and you'll see 11 year old boys moving goats and sheep all over the field.

[A]

See it in Israel like crazy.

[C]

You see it all over Jericho. Remember we go to Jericho, there's that in Palestine.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

In the Palestinian territories. You see it all the time. And dude, it's a tough, tough, tough way to live. I mean this is, this is a lonely and hard and dirty and so the significance of it can't be overstated.

[B]

It's so odd. So the message that the angel says is, I have a, I have good news, it's of great joy and it's for all people. And it's just like if I was a shepherd, I'd be like, so why are you telling me?

[C]

Right?

[B]

You know what I mean? Like, shouldn't you tell, shouldn't you tell somebody like who's got a voice or who's got, you know, influence or who's got an outlet, you know? And Pastor Joby, I don't remember the first time you talked about the Bethlehem lambs swaddled. Was that like a year, a year or two ago?

[A]

Yeah, last Christmas Eve.

[B]

That gets me too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Bethlehem is strategically placed. All those shepherd's fields are walking distance from the temple. The Levites, part of their like JV priest job would be to go gather the spotless lambs. I mean, you can keep going with this. The morning sacrifice and the evening sacrifice just happened to exactly align with the time that Jesus went to the cross and the time where he breathed his last. He is the perfect spotless lamb. This has been going on for, you know, a thousand years before he ever shows up on the scene. Yeah. He is the Lamb of God.

[B]

And it's so, it would be so easy to miss that. And you'll find the baby wrapped in swaddling clothes, laying in a manger. They'd have been like, oh, you mean like a sacrificial lamb.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, but that's not written in there anymore.

[A]

Right? They're like a baby.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, no, no, you mean them a baby. You know what I mean? It's that.

[B]

Yeah. Do you think that these shepherds are, would they have been kind of like, you know, you talk about the disciples a lot. Like they grew up going to Hebrew school and so a lot of times they would know a lot of The Old Testament.

[A]

Yeah. They would at least know the Torah and the Psalms would be my guess.

[B]

Because something I noticed tonight was it they say to each other, let's go to Bethlehem and see the thing that's happened that the Lord has made known to us. And so they were like, God just spoke to us.

[A]

Correct? Yeah.

[B]

You know?

[A]

Yeah. This is not like a premonition. This is not like a feeling. This is like, this isn't like I felt the Lord did my quiet time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The angel showed up in the field with them and they were scared and he. The angels said stuff and then a choir of angel joins in later and sings.

[B]

And they didn't just say, I've had, I've seen a ghost.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They didn't say like this could be an alien. You know, it was the Lord. And they went with haste and they found, they said, well, yeah, that's exactly what they saw.

[C]

Don't you think that part of the reason he chose, that he chose the shepherds was because it's a, it's, it's a faith based message, you know, that if a shepherd's going to come and tell you I saw the Lord, it's going to take a little bit of faith to believe the shepherd. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. What's in it for the shepherd?

[C]

Right.

[A]

If it's not true? And so, yeah, if this is propaganda, it's the worst piece of propaganda ever written.

[C]

Right.

[A]

They don't do anything.

[B]

Right, Right. And if it had been to like, let's just say it was some sort of like, you know, magic person or a sorcerer that the angel showed up to, then it's like, okay, here he comes again with another vision for what he saw from the Lord. Or here's he saw another angel.

[A]

Great.

[B]

You know, it's like these guys have probably never seen anything like this, nor have they ever said to anyone, hey, we, we just saw something.

[A]

Well, the other thing too is that the, the, the temple system was not open to these kids. They were too dirty all the time. They were never clean. You can't, you only get to get out there and get animal crap on you and then just go to temple one day and worship. So they did not believe or understand that there was good news of great joy for all people. They thought that was for those people. That's for the guys that come down in the, with the funny hats and the fancy robes like this. This, this God of Israel is for those people that go to the synagogue and teach. And you know, I'm sure they've probably been to Jerusalem and they saw Gamaliel and him teaching class, and the people all gathered around and they're like, this whole God thing is for good people, for righteous people, for religious people, not for us people. Most. Some scholars think that most of the. The shepherds in this day would have been younger kids in a family that were basically given by the family as whether you like an indentured servant to pay off a debt. That's who these people are. Not, like, wise, not like shepherds in the kata.

[B]

And not. Not big enough to, like, do something that would require more responsibility. Like David in the Old Testament. Right. Like, he's too young to go to war, so he's a shepherd. And. And it's. Man, it's crazy how the more you study a lot of this, not only is the fact that Jesus is going to be the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, it's there from the beginning. It's not like when he finally. When John says, it's just like, wait, what? Like. No, it's. Yeah, it's been there the whole time. This whole idea of it's for all people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is also there the whole time. If you. If you have eyes to see it, you know that it goes to these shepherds, it goes to these women. You talk. I mean, all this, all this stuff.

[A]

Well, even in the Sermon on the Mount, when Jesus says, you're a light of the world sitting on a hill, he's quoting the Old Testament. Israel got turned in on itself. The Jewish people were a chosen people, a holy nation, in order that the whole world may know that there is one true God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there is a way to him. But then they got real insider, outsider real quick. And by the time the New Testament begins, dude, it's. It's all about circumcision and uncircumcision.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they missed the whole point.

[B]

Yeah. I was just reading in Acts and when. Remember that debate in Acts 14 and 15? And they're talking about, like, okay, how Jewish do the Gentiles have to be before they can be saved? And I think James is like, hey, listen, it's in the Old Testament, right? He's like, it's the Gentiles will hope. He's right there in Amos. And you know, like, they're like, okay, we get it now.

[A]

Joel, too.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. We didn't really get into this tonight, but the next thing that happens in Luke 2 is Jesus being presented in the temple. And that goes to another. We're going to get into the incarnation in a minute. But this goes to Jesus. Part of his fulfilling of the law. Right. Like that Joseph and Mary were going to abide by the Mosaic requirements of him being the firstborn. He was going to be circumcised on the eighth day. And, and there's this awesome episode of these two old people who've been waiting for the Messiah. So yet another, another signpost of Jesus being them. Anything you would point out about that? Even they didn't preach on it tonight, Pastor Joby?

[A]

Yeah, just that, I mean, Jesus says it later. He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. And multiple times the Bible's being repetitive because that's how, you know how important something is. So multiple times, just in the first few verses about him being present, it'll say, in accordance with the law.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they didn't show up and be like, well, that doesn't count anymore. That's dumb. Or we should just unhitch from the Old Testament that we don't need that anymore. This was, this was in alignment with the way God had ordered things.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

This is one of the preeminent places where you, you know, you read in Genesis, the Spirit of God hovered over the waters. The Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is upon me. The Spirit. You know, Isaiah talks about the Spirit of God all the time. This is one of the fascinating things about Simeon is that it says, and the Holy Spirit was upon him pre Pentecost. And so we're not talking about two different spirits. The Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God are one and the same. And so most people listen to them be like, is that even a debate? Well, it is a debate because Christians like to debate about things. But there's one spirit, you know what I mean? And there's a lot of triune stuff going on right here too. So super, super significant. You know, there's something too waiting in the history of Israel. There's something to waiting that I think in a lot of ways the Advent Christmas time, that's what it's about, is the waiting. And you ask your, your first question early was, how do we miss it? Well, it's because we're not a people who like to wait. And Simeon and Anna are a great example of like, oh man, the wait is worth it. And that we're not just waiting on another Christmas and we're not waiting on better understanding. Like you said tonight we're waiting on the full and final divine revelation of Christ the King. And we're Waiting for heaven. And the waiting is worth it. And man. May God grant us the grace to wait. Well, you know, it gets a little.

[B]

Bit into what you said about how we miss it too. Like the constant looking ahead. And when you're doing that, you're really not able to, like, you're, you're, you're not thinking about anything. You're just look like you're constantly going, next, what's next? What's next, what's next? So you're never in that season of waiting.

[C]

One of the things about the Incarnation, like a, a, a fruitful question that grows out of studying Christ's landed invasion in this way that we're looking at tonight. I mean, a real fascinating question is how many days do you string together in a row where you don't think about the return of Christ? Oh, as if it's not the most important thing yet to happen. Like, of all the things that will ever happen, it's the one more most important thing to happen.

[A]

You know what I'm saying?

[C]

You know what I'm saying? Like, you can't separate the return from the cruc, from the birth, from the crucifixion and the Resurrection. Right. So those things are equally important.

[A]

So why is that, do you think? There's been, like, you know, I can have a tendency to overreact to what other people do. In other words, it seems that there are some, some churches, some preachers that are so obsessed with the end times stuff. And I'm, I wouldn't put myself in the, like, dispensational category of, you know, with the maps and the, you know what I mean? And I'm like, I'm not doing that. So I can, much like many Protestants have done kind of throw the baby out with the bath water in many things. Yeah. I mean, honestly, when Chandler was here, you know, doing his Overcomers tour, and it was a good reminder that, that we should be praying, come, Lord Jesus, come. And I'm, I'm, I'm definitely in like the Baptist camp on this one. He ain't coming till every child, tongue and nation knows. So you better get to get busy about the Great Commission for the sake of his return. Amen, you know?

[C]

Yeah, I don't know why, I don't know why that is. It's an interesting thing to think about. Like, we have Christmas built in to think about the Incarnation, but we don't have, we have, we have Easter built in to think about the Resurrection, but.

[A]

We don't have the other Advent waiting for His Return.

[C]

Yeah. I mean the Advent technically is.

[B]

Advent's a different season than Christmas.

[C]

Advent is a different season, but in our calendar they lay on top of each other.

[B]

I think in the modern, in the modern use. Yes. But like if you look at the.

[A]

Word just means waiting. So there's two Advents, there's a second, there's only one that we pick back up. That's what I mean. And the only reason I know is because the denomination that Gretchen comes from is like a really tiny one called Advent Christian. And it was a breakoff of the, like a regular mainline Baptist or whatever. And they got real obsessed with the Second coming over a season, you know what I mean? And they were like, nobody's talking about this enough. And you know, that's how denominations get started. And they're a Bible believing Protestant denomination that her granddad was a, a pastor of and I preached at their church, they. This last year. But that denomination was basically addressing that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, we need to, we need to pay more attention. We need to be in waiting for the return of Christ.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That in Advent that's what it was. That's why it's called Advent Christian. That there was, there's two waiting preparations. There was one for the Incarnation and then now there's one for the Second coming.

[B]

Yeah. And it has a, it has like a dual meaning when you, when you celebrate Advent.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Like in trying to get yourself in the story of the people of Israel waiting for all those years for Messiah preparation, you put yourself also in the age of, of the church waiting for the second coming.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then Advent leads into a Christmas. That's why the 12 Days of Christmas comes from, is that once you hit Christmas, there's the 12 feast days of Christmas and then you get epiphany in the church calendar.

[A]

That's why you need a good Episcopalian on your podcast.

[C]

I think they're, I think Simeon and Anna's prayer is, you know, fascinating. He says, lord, now you're brutal. Letting your servant depart in peace according to your word. For my eyes have seen your salvation that you've prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the gentiles. Controversial enough. And he's declaring this on the steps of the temple.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And for glory or for weight, for significance to your people, Israel.

[A]

Dude, how about this? Okay? He's brutal, man. He's like Dr. Paul. Dr. Paul's so old that he just, he. There's no filter anymore. Y. He just says what it is that love him so much and his father and mother, that's Mary and Joseph, marveled at what Simeon said about Jesus. And Simeon blessed them. Mary and Joseph. And here's the blessing. Ready? He says to Mary, okay, is this a blessing? Behold, this child is appointed for the fall and rising of many in Israel. Okay, that's cool for a sign that is opposed and then in parentheses. So I guess this means he like whispers to her, and a sword will pierce through your own soul. Also. This is her at the foot of the cross, watching her son crucified. The boy that when he was born she counted fingers and toes, and now those hands and feet are pierced. And this is a blessing so that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed. So in Simeon's mind, he.

[C]

Yeah, Mary's what? You know the time on this? Mary's what?

[B]

Sixteen.

[C]

Sixteen year old. Sixteen year old Mary at this time. So all those progressive swords, huh? That's cool.

[A]

All those progressive lost people that call themselves Christians that are like, Jesus never claimed to be God. This was like put on him later. You don't. So John the Baptist in the womb thinks he's God. Elizabeth calls in utero. Jesus God. The angels call. Just born baby Jesus God. Simeon says he's going to die for the sins of all the world. I get so mad at these people.

[C]

If you're listening, you can't do.

[A]

Here's what happens. Here's what happens with those jokers. I'm going to tell you what happens. It's. It's probably sexual sin, but it might be something else. And they know the Bible says you ain't supposed to do something they want to do. And that's where it started. And now they've just unpacked the whole.

[C]

Thing, you know, I do, I do. The Bible has a word for it. It's real heartbreaking.

[B]

What's the word?

[C]

Apostasy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Before we. We're not out of time, but I want to spend a little bit of time talking about this big theological world, the called Incarnation. I was listening to somebody pray the other day and I'm terrible about like judging your prayers. Evaluating, judging.

[C]

I feel you're judging me when I'm praying.

[B]

You know, I just think about things I might want to talk about to him later, you know, based on what they're praying. And so a lot of times people pray something like this. They'll say, you know, thank you, Jesus, that you came to be a sacrifice for us. That's not wrong. But I was thinking like, man, there's so many things that Jesus came to do. When he, when he was in. Incarnate, in flesh. You know, sometimes I think about carne asada, because carne means meat, you know, incarnate. Anyway, when he was incarnate, I want to talk about just so many of the things that he. He did. Like, what are some of the things that come to your mind? Like, besides, oh, he came to die, like, what did he do when he was born as a human? What did that mean?

[A]

That we have a high priest that can empathize with us because he was tempted in every way that we are tempted.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you can't be tempted in heaven.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's a thing he did.

[B]

Yep. He also had to go through. He had to go through time. Like, there's a lot of boring things that happen when you grow up. And he just went through all of it.

[A]

Yeah. For the first time in his existence, he had to wait on something.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

Yeah. The, the. The monotony of living, you know, the. I mean, the king of all glory straight put on a skin suit. And this is how he chose to do it. He chose to grow up. He chose to be disciplined by his parents. He chose to, you know, be a brother, to be a son to. You know what I mean? Like, he chose all this for himself. And it's pretty wild to think about the. How extraordinarily common it is. You know, it really is a simple. The simple means by which the most significant thing in the world ever happened, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Philippians 2 is a good description of what Jesus does when he condescends to become, when he. When John 1:14 happens. Philippians 2 is a descriptor of what is going on, that. And, and that, you know, Paul's admonition is that our attitude would be like that, that being in very nature God. He did not consider equality with God something to flash, to grab onto, to hold on to, but he humbled himself, he became obedient to become a man, to put on flesh, and even obedient unto death. So that. That's a description. I mean, the biggest shift there is the Incarnation, stepping out of heaven. I mean, even if you think about it like, theologically, I could get in some hot water because I can misuse a word, but the concept holds. He is the everlasting almighty second Person of the Trinity, and that never goes away. And yet he decides to sort of put on pause some of his not divine attributes, but thing he has access to as the divine. So he's not omnipresent for 33 years because he's a man in a place, you know, at any time, he can decide that he can walk on top of the water instead of be subject to the laws of nature. But most of the time, he's kind of subject to the laws of nature. He gets tired and hungry. He could turn hungry off if he wants to, but he. That's a big part of what Philippians 2 means. When he says he humbled himself and became obedient. He even became obedient to being a human. Yeah, like, he cried. He got real sad and cried.

[B]

The thing you're talking about, there's so much that's been written about. If you, if you get into some of the commentaries that write about, like, what exactly. How exactly did he limit it or how. What did. You know?

[C]

Like, you start using the limit word.

[B]

And I mean, just.

[A]

You gotta. Yeah. So you start making up theological term terminology to try to describe what you're trying to explain.

[B]

I think I. I think I read this article, like, on one of these websites, like the. I think maybe Don Carson or somebody wrote it.

[A]

He's smart.

[B]

Yeah, he's smart. And there was this. He was talking about how he. He was reading a catalog and he saw a nativity scene that had, like, bears as the nativity characters and just wrote this whole thing about how God didn't come as a bear. Like, and. And then, like, he just used to talk about the. The incarnation. By assuming humanity, he was able to redeem humanity. Like, he assumed human, like God assumed humanity so that humanity could partake in the divine nature. You know, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Is it not. Is it not why God chose to create humanity as the pinnacle of his creation? What made humanity the pinnacle of his creation was not merely that they were created. Is that the point of them being created was that Jesus was going to come as one of them.

[A]

One of the things that helped me a long time ago.

[C]

The highest treasure.

[A]

If you ever ask a why. Why words did God. Okay, I know the answer. For his glory.

[C]

For his glory.

[A]

If you start there, it will actually help you reverse engineer into the answer of your question. And then you may get to. And though I don't see it on this side, I believe Romans 8. I believe that when I see through a glass clearly, then. Then I'll say, oh, there you go. That's how you were glorified in this.

[B]

Yeah. And you can see a lot of times in, in popular stories, like, you know, the movie Avatar, where he's like, he has to become one of those people in order to lead them to and save them. That's, that's happens a bunch like, like he, he becomes, I mean it's crazy. Becomes one of us. I remember used to listen to a lot of Christian radio and there's this. Do you remember this? Let's see if you remember this. There's this guy, it's like it come on around Christmas time and it was like kind of a song. Like there's music going, but it's some kind of preacher narrator guy. He's talking about this guy who won't go to church on Christmas Eve. And then his wife's inviting him, but he, he like is a farmer. So he goes out to his barn and he's trying to save this little bird, these birds, something like that, that won't come inside the barn in the snow. And he starts thinking, man, if only I could just become a bird. Then I could speak to them in bird language. Then I could tell them they're going to die out here. They got to come. Because he keeps trying to like shoe them in or like put little breadcrumbs and they just don't listen. And then that's how he's like all of a sudden gets it like, oh, I get it now.

[A]

That's my ant analogy that I've shared.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

When Cycle Boy is running over the ants with his big wheel. Yeah, I can't communicate the ants unless I were to become an ant. C.S. lewis talks about it in the chapter after I quoted tonight. And it gets a little bit confusing, but it's like God had to become a man because you had to be God to die for man, but you had to be a he. He describes it, I, I'd have to look it up, but it's a pretty philosophical description of why the God man had to be the sacrifice. Because if just a man died for you, he doesn't bring any righteousness to the equation. So I don't know, he kind of dealt with that.

[C]

Yeah, the incarnation. He's not reacting through the Incarnation.

[A]

No, it was pre planned for the foundation of the world.

[C]

That's the thing about the incarnation is it's not like he was surprised by how criminal man was or how corrupt everybody was and then was like, oh no, I got to go down there and rescue him. Like it was always the point, this was always the plan. And we're talking about the Trinity in time. And you know the verse that really blow your mind is that before the foundations of the world the Lamb was slain. And this had already been done in some cosmic outside of Time. It's all settled. It's just getting inside of time for the greater glory of God. And so, amen and amen.

[B]

And in order for him to be the firstborn of the resurrected humans. Right, Right. To be a human.

[C]

And the line in what child is this? The one that I. My favorite line is, why lies he in such mean estate? And then it goes on to say, where ox and lamb were feeding.

[A]

It didn't say lamb. We changed that.

[C]

We changed that. It says.

[A]

Yeah, my notes were oxen. So I just almost. I was like, I'm such a dude. I'm 51 years old and a pastor of a great church, and my mind is still. I'm a seventh grader.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

My notes said ass. And I was like, while I'm preaching in front of however many thousands of.

[C]

People, I'm so in the. In the planning meeting, when they told us they were changing the lyric, I was like, can we please sing the word donkey? Like, I know it doesn't fit. I know, but it'd be awesome if we just sang donkey. And I think the. The writer Willie was talking about the manger and the humble.

[A]

Yeah, just the.

[C]

The. The dirty. The dirty gas station bathroom that Jesus was born into. That's what. That's what he was born into here. And. But there's so much more to it.

[A]

So much, you know.

[C]

Why lies he in such mean estate? What a fascinating lyric. You know that. That's the. Because if you really think about, like, if he had come. Let's just say he was born into the Roman category. Like, he's still a Jew, but through the means of Rome, he was going to come, and he was going to kind of take and become the emperor of Rome. Like, let's just say he wasn't just going to rule the Jewish people, but he was going to be a Jew. And the plan all along that he would be the Caesar and redeem the world that way. Well, the trick of that was that Rome was so syncretistic and pluralistic that everything that every Caesar did in Rome, every time that they would talk, they would say, the gods have spoken. And nobody could debate with it. So anybody in power would just always be like, well, the gods have spoken and do this. The gods have spoken and do this, and Caesars are saying, I am God. And so Jesus would have just been another. It would have just been another emperor claiming to be divine, you know, but to come through the people that have said, singularly, there is only one God, and then claim to be God, the magnitude of this is significant. But they're also an oppressed people. It is a mean estate. They're an oppressed people. They're a subjugated people. They're a ruled people. And so anyway, it's transcendent on every level. No question.

[B]

It's a very deep well. I encourage you to dig into it some. Pastor Joby, you've talked a lot about the uniqueness of Christianity as evidenced by the incarnation. So talk a little bit about that.

[A]

So Christianity is the only belief system. Here's what we all agree on. God, heaven, nirvana, perfection, whatever is there. And we are here. And there's a gap. And the only one that claims that God came here to get us, to take us there is the Gospel. Everything else is we must make our way there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's kind of. You know, there's an old account of C.S. lewis walking around Oxford, and the religion department are writing all the things that major world religions have in common. And we would agree with all the things they wrote on the list. You know, sacred text and prayer and pursuit of holiness or righteous living, whatever. And they say, hey, Jack. I found out. Somebody told me they called him Jack because he was dog. Yeah, I didn't know that.

[B]

So anyway, just like Indiana Jones.

[A]

Hey, Jack. Yeah, we called the dog Indy.

[C]

Just like Indy.

[B]

And that's about where their common traits is.

[A]

And they. And they say to him, see, all religions are fundamentally the same and only superficially different.

[C]

What say you?

[A]

And he erases it, writes grace. And he's like, no, no, no. They're fundamentally different and only superficially the same.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that's the fundamental difference that he came for us.

[B]

Yeah, it's grace.

[A]

It's God with us, not us with God.

[C]

Grace is the game changer. Yeah, that's it.

[A]

He wants us.

[B]

Yeah. Like Mark 3, the thing you talked about.

[A]

Rain a cherry. Just spit out that verse. It's a little bit out of context, but I'm gonna start saying it.

[C]

Mark 3. 13.

[A]

Yeah. And God and Jesus called unto himself all those whom he desired. Is what the ESV says it. Or all those whom he wanted. He's talking about going up on the hill, but that he wanted him. He wants us.

[B]

One of the things that I was like, man, I'm gonna chew on that one. Was when you. You were talking about the question that Jesus, who do you say that I am? And it's like. It's kind of like the. Another way to say, what child is this? You know?

[A]

Yeah, you like that, didn't you?

[B]

And well, now, the thing that I'm gonna. This is the thing that I like. When you said Jesus didn't say, I want to show you the way or I'm going to teach you the truth or I'm going to lead you to life. He said, I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life. So what's the difference?

[A]

It's say Previous comment. Every other world religion and belief system said makes truth claims, life claims and way to live claims. And Jesus's claim is him. The old school how to share your faith class, where you, you draw the you and God and chasm of sin and the cross is the bridge, is a beautiful picture of that. Jesus goes, I am not. Here's how you cross it or here's what you do. It's I am every single time goes.

[B]

Back to the divinity of Christ. Right? Because if he's just a messenger or he's just an apparition or just a great prophet or great teacher, then he can't say that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's what C.S. lewis is saying. Anybody who calls him great moral teacher, I would say you've never read his teachings. You've never read his teachings. You've heard about them.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Part of them. You've only heard the good parts about being nice to people. You've never heard the claims that he made about bringing a sword to divide families, about nations bowing down to him, about him being lifted up, that all men might be saved. I mean, he's either an egomaniac or he's bipolar, or he's a liar or.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He's telling truth.

[B]

There's no real version of what's there that would allow him to be just a nice guy.

[A]

Correct. And what's really interesting now, so what? So when I was in seminary and all my lost professors would say is that he didn't really say that. Those words were put in his mouth later during the Byzantine Empire. I wish I was going to seminary right now because all of the biblical, all of the biblical archeology has refuted all of those claims. You know, there's really, really, really smart textual criticism now that's like me. So. So, for instance, one of the things he'll claim is, so what happened in the first century is if you made up some stuff and you wrote a letter, then what you would do is you would attribute it to somebody very famous that had a lot of pull and power so that your thoughts would be. Would catch on, like, cool, okay. Like Mark. Why would you pick Mark? Who is Mark? Mark wasn't even one of the followers of Jesus. He wasn't one of the 12 disciples. If anything, if he's John, Mark, he got kicked out from a mission trip because he sucked. And you're going to attribute. He interviewed Peter. So surely you would just say Peter, John. You would pick the guys. Why Luke? Nobody. Luke's. Who's Luke? Luke's not even a Luke. Links up with Paul way later, you know. So all of these things begin to break down. What's. What's great, man, is over the last hundred years of real progressive biblical criticism is every argument. If you just give enough time, it falls apart again. And they're like, I think, I think it is what it is.

[B]

Remember, we're hanging out with Dr. Moeller, which was really cool. But then he's like, he's like, oh, all you. I fired all your professors.

[A]

All right? And I was like, you should have. Yeah. Shout out to Dr. Al Mohler. I mean, he is Mr. Southern Baptist.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

I'm g. Tell you, dude, that guy's brilliant. He know. He knows more Bible than I will ever know. And we had this sweet dinner with him and it was really great because I think his grandkids go to 1122 or something like that, you know, Cuz he, he was like, can I get a picture with you? I was like, what? And so I asked him about how he got into ministry and he, he just began to recount a story about teaching his first Sunday school class. Got all choked up. I'm like, come on, man, you've. You've, you know, I mean, so good. Yeah, you can tell that guy just loves Lord, loves the word and wants to connect those two things.

[C]

Theological beast, beast.

[B]

He's Bob.

[C]

Kind of like you, Vinky.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We're about out of time and we're about to end 2024.

[C]

Merry Christmas, my friends. And to all my friends listening, if you're still hanging with us, Merry Christmas to you too.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So wait. Well, my friends, wait.

[A]

Well, so when's this coming out? This will be a couple days before Christmas.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you ended tonight, Pastor Joby, with the best thing you could do in your life or in the year 2024 would be to surrender to Jesus and say that he is Lord. But any other closing thoughts or prayers for anybody listening to this podcast?

[A]

You know, I think, I think Luke kind of alludes to when Mary treasures all these things in her heart. That's kind of a sort of an equivalent of a. Of a gratitude list, you know, I mean, bro, she's just living her life. And the angel shows up, it's like, hey, guess what? God has placed his favor on you. You're going to be blessed. And that blessing though, is also going to be a sword through your heart. But ultimately it's all. You're in God's hands because God has placed his favor on you. And she treasured these things. It doesn't say she just remembered them or she feared them. She just. She treasured. Which means she valued God's plan for her life. And so wherever you are right now, I pray that you would treasure these things in your heart. That God loves you and has a plan for you. And that plan is for his glory and for your good and for your joy unto the glory of Jesus. And so the holidays are a great time to focus our attention on the sovereignty of God in the midst of a mess and to treasure those things.

[B]

And maybe that's a good reminder that maybe you don't need new stuff. Like, you know, sometimes in Christmas you're thinking more presents or a better, a better thing.

[A]

Like I love presents so much though.

[B]

The treasuring your heart makes me think you have, like you have what you need. Oh my God, you know what I mean? To. To have a great Christmas.

[A]

Totally, man. You just, you know, you can really only enjoy presence when you realize there are means to an end. And the end is like our joy in the Lord towards one another at expense to ourself, you know, but if you ever get it, if the, if any of the Merry Christmas terminates on the presents, boy, it falls apart pretty quick. Yeah, unless you're a three year old, then it falls apart even quicker.

[B]

Yeah, the box is more interesting.

[A]

No doubt.

[B]

Would you pray for us?

[A]

I would love to. Our good and gracious heavenly Father, we love you because you love us. And Jesus is the proof. We thank you for this season that reminds us that you so loved us, that you took your son, the one that you have lavish loved on from eternity past to the eternity future, and you sent him, you gave him, you assigned him to here to be the propitiation, the redemption, the ransom, the sacrifice, the spotless lamb for us, that you would redeem us and buy us and adopt us. And so God, may we not forget that this Christmas season. Thank you for listening to the podcast the End.