Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin

Episode: The Scandal of Grace – S23E5
Date: October 13, 2025
Theme: A deep dive into “Amazing Grace,” the hymn, and the centrality, scandal, and practical implications of grace in Christianity.

Episode Overview

This episode explores the deep, transformative, and, as the title suggests, scandalous nature of grace in the Christian faith. Using the hymn "Amazing Grace" as both a launching point and a lens, Pastor Joby Martin, Pastor Adam, Pastor Joe, worship leader TJ Madison, and the host unpack the theology, history, personal resonance, and misunderstood facets of grace. The roundtable digs into why grace stands at the core of the Gospel, how it shapes and distinguishes Christianity, and its practical outworking in believers’ lives.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Unique Place of Grace in Christianity (02:36, 05:28, 23:59)

• Grace vs. Religion:
  Pastor Joe notes, "Grace is the thing that sets Christianity apart from every other world religion. And we use that word and that concept so ordinarily that we can become numb to it." (02:36)

  • All other religions teach earning God’s favor; Christianity proclaims God coming to humanity in grace.
  • C.S. Lewis’ famous anecdote is recounted: "He just takes a big fat eraser, erases a big chunk in the middle, writes the word grace, drops the chalk, and in his CS Lewis way, just Mic drops and walks out...Grace is the difference." (24:12)

• The Scandalous Edge of Grace:
  Pastor Adam shares, "When a preacher rightly preaches grace, the longtime church people get real nervous because it really is scandalous... they’re just afraid that other people are going to be licentious." (04:17)

2. The Hymn “Amazing Grace” as Theological Anchor (03:15, 06:26, 13:12)

• Why the Hymn Matters:
  • The hymn’s power lies in its concise, memorable summary of the Gospel: "When you rightly understand grace, it changes everything about your life," reflected in, "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind, but now I see." (06:26)
• Personal and Generational Resonance:
  • The hymn’s presence across generations and contexts, from funerals to moments of national tragedy, illustrates its binding and comforting power (09:09, 10:57, 11:48).

3. John Newton: The Author’s Story Shapes the Song (12:50)

• Radical Testimony:
  • From running slave ships to being enslaved, receiving little education, falling into wild living, then experiencing a Gospel transformation, Newton’s biography (shared by Pastor Joe) displays the radical reach of grace: "These words were not theory. These are...his life." (12:50)
• Historical Note:
  • “Amazing Grace” was once considered too contemporary for church, highlighting that even “classic” hymns were new once and met resistance (15:52).

4. Grace Misunderstood: Theological Ditches (05:28, 31:12)

• Two Ditches (using a Scottish proverb):
  • One: "I’m too far gone. Grace can’t reach me."
  • Two: "Well, I’ve received grace, so now I can do whatever I want. No, you can’t. The grace that doesn’t change you didn’t save you..." (05:28)
• Not Just Undeserved, but Ill-Deserved:
  • "It’s not just, it is undeserved, but it’s more than that. It’s ill deserved." (31:12)

5. The Role of Hymns and Contemporary Worship (17:10, 18:49)

• Spirit and Truth:
  • "We sing songs that we think make God happy...we aim for doxological excellence. And so first and foremost, we’re going to sing songs that are true." (17:31-18:48)
• Cultural and Personal Variation:
  • Styles of worship differ worldwide; what matters is authentic worship in “spirit and truth,” not musical preference or tradition (19:31, 21:20).

6. The Impact and Universality of “Amazing Grace” (21:11, 22:31)

• A Global Hymn:
  • The tune and message cross national and linguistic barriers, with the hymn sung in countless languages; it powerfully images the Revelation ideal of every tribe and tongue worshipping together (22:31).
• Hymns Carrying the Gospel in Secular or Nominal Settings:
  • TJ shares about singing “Amazing Grace” at a Catholic funeral that led to Gospel conversations even when no sermon was given (11:48).

7. Grace in Practice: Forgiveness, Relationships, and the Church (39:16)

• Extending Grace:
  • How church and society often misunderstand or withhold grace, becoming polarized or self-righteous (39:16).
  • The ability/inability to extend grace reveals the degree to which one understands and believes the Gospel (39:55).

8. Theology of Salvation, Sovereignty, and Response (43:17, 49:01)

• Both/And Tensions:
  • Salvation is secure not because of human effort but because, "He grasped you, you didn’t grasp him." (35:23)
  • Tension between God's sovereignty (“election”) and human responsibility to respond is addressed using the “railroad track” metaphor: "parallel tracks in the universe you cannot get your head around. And they’re true because the Word says they’re true..." (47:02)
• Balance vs. Both/And:
  • Church philosophy: Not trying to “balance” discover and deepen, but to “both/and" teach Biblical truths (48:24).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Scandal and Power of Grace:
  "If you rightly preach this grace thing, then people might think that they don't have to do anything to be saved...It makes religious people really, really nervous." – Pastor Adam (04:17)

• On Real Discipleship: "When a preacher rightly preaches grace...the longtime church people get real nervous because it really is scandalous." – Pastor Adam (04:17)

• On Newton and the Hymn:
  "These words were not theory. These...describe his life...He made sailors blush...ran transatlantic slave ships...became a pastor. And that’s where [the hymn] came from." – Pastor Joe (13:12)

• On “Grace that Doesn’t Change You”: "Because the grace that doesn't change you didn't save you. And if you get hit by the grace train, it changes everything." – Pastor Adam (05:48)

• On Universal Impact:
  "You go anywhere and just hum the tune, people will pick it right up and run with it." – Pastor Joe (21:20)

• On Undeserving Grace:
  "It’s not just, it is undeserved, but it’s more than that. It’s ill deserved. We're not just morally neutral, right, towards God...we are, we are enemies of God apart from Christ." – Pastor Joe (31:12)

• On the Father’s Heart:
  "The distance between Allie's dad's capacity to give grace and the capacity for the fountain of grace to give grace is greater than the distance between whatever that sin is and tying your shoe. That’s how big the grace of God is." – Pastor Adam (41:47)

• On the True Reward:
  "He doesn’t say ‘well done, good and fruitful servant.’...He says ‘well done, good and faithful servant’. And if it was based on your activity, then there’d be a fruit measurer outside of heaven saying, ‘you almost did it.’" – Pastor Adam (43:17)

• On Worship and Tradition:
  "We don’t try to harmonize these things...We just try to bless God by worshiping Him in spirit and truth." – Pastor Adam (18:10)

• On the Global Church:
  "I’ve been in many places where everybody’s singing in their own language, but you’re singing the tune of Amazing Grace...the only thing we had in common was this amazing grace that unifies us around the cross." – Pastor Adam (22:31)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Grace as the Radical Distinctive – 02:36, 04:17, 05:28, 23:59
• Amazing Grace – Personal and Collective Impact – 06:26, 09:09, 10:23, 11:48
• John Newton’s Story – 12:50–15:52
• Hymns, Worship, and Church Practice – 17:10, 18:49, 19:31
• Amazing Grace Across the World – 21:11, 22:31
• Practical Implications of Grace – 31:12, 39:16, 39:55
• Theological Tensions: Sovereignty, Effort, Faith – 43:17, 47:02, 48:24, 49:01

Conclusion & Takeaways

• Grace is not merely a concept, but a life-altering reality that distinguishes Christianity.
• The hymn “Amazing Grace” is a touchstone for both personal testimony and collective worship, across cultures and generations.
• Grace is misunderstood as “cheap” or “license”; however, true grace transforms and compels godly living.
• The Gospel encompasses both the initial act of saving grace and sustaining, sanctifying grace.
• Debates about old versus new worship styles miss the point: authentic worship is oriented to please and glorify God in spirit and truth.
• Salvation and good works are both outcomes of grace—works are evidence, not the basis, of salvation.
• Extending grace to others is rooted in truly embracing the Gospel’s reality for ourselves.

Final Prayer Highlights (50:52)

"God, thank you for this conversation, Lord. Thank you. That Jesus, you are grace. That you have sought us out when we were far from you and you've brought us near...no matter what we're going to face you have new mercy, new grace for us tomorrow...not because of anything we've done, but because of your work. So we're so grateful for your grace, Lord, and we just give you all the glory tonight. In Jesus name, Amen." – TJ Madison

This summary is designed to engage and inform both long-time churchgoers and those examining the claims of Christianity, offering clear insights into the “scandal” and the comfort found in grace.