The Scandal of Grace - S23E5

Summary

Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin

Episode: The Scandal of Grace – S23E5
Date: October 13, 2025
Theme: A deep dive into “Amazing Grace,” the hymn, and the centrality, scandal, and practical implications of grace in Christianity.

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the deep, transformative, and, as the title suggests, scandalous nature of grace in the Christian faith. Using the hymn "Amazing Grace" as both a launching point and a lens, Pastor Joby Martin, Pastor Adam, Pastor Joe, worship leader TJ Madison, and the host unpack the theology, history, personal resonance, and misunderstood facets of grace. The roundtable digs into why grace stands at the core of the Gospel, how it shapes and distinguishes Christianity, and its practical outworking in believers’ lives.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Unique Place of Grace in Christianity (02:36, 05:28, 23:59)

• Grace vs. Religion:
  Pastor Joe notes, "Grace is the thing that sets Christianity apart from every other world religion. And we use that word and that concept so ordinarily that we can become numb to it." (02:36)

  • All other religions teach earning God’s favor; Christianity proclaims God coming to humanity in grace.
  • C.S. Lewis’ famous anecdote is recounted: "He just takes a big fat eraser, erases a big chunk in the middle, writes the word grace, drops the chalk, and in his CS Lewis way, just Mic drops and walks out...Grace is the difference." (24:12)

• The Scandalous Edge of Grace:
  Pastor Adam shares, "When a preacher rightly preaches grace, the longtime church people get real nervous because it really is scandalous... they’re just afraid that other people are going to be licentious." (04:17)

2. The Hymn “Amazing Grace” as Theological Anchor (03:15, 06:26, 13:12)

• Why the Hymn Matters:
  • The hymn’s power lies in its concise, memorable summary of the Gospel: "When you rightly understand grace, it changes everything about your life," reflected in, "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind, but now I see." (06:26)
• Personal and Generational Resonance:
  • The hymn’s presence across generations and contexts, from funerals to moments of national tragedy, illustrates its binding and comforting power (09:09, 10:57, 11:48).

3. John Newton: The Author’s Story Shapes the Song (12:50)

• Radical Testimony:
  • From running slave ships to being enslaved, receiving little education, falling into wild living, then experiencing a Gospel transformation, Newton’s biography (shared by Pastor Joe) displays the radical reach of grace: "These words were not theory. These are...his life." (12:50)
• Historical Note:
  • “Amazing Grace” was once considered too contemporary for church, highlighting that even “classic” hymns were new once and met resistance (15:52).

4. Grace Misunderstood: Theological Ditches (05:28, 31:12)

• Two Ditches (using a Scottish proverb):
  • One: "I’m too far gone. Grace can’t reach me."
  • Two: "Well, I’ve received grace, so now I can do whatever I want. No, you can’t. The grace that doesn’t change you didn’t save you..." (05:28)
• Not Just Undeserved, but Ill-Deserved:
  • "It’s not just, it is undeserved, but it’s more than that. It’s ill deserved." (31:12)

5. The Role of Hymns and Contemporary Worship (17:10, 18:49)

• Spirit and Truth:
  • "We sing songs that we think make God happy...we aim for doxological excellence. And so first and foremost, we’re going to sing songs that are true." (17:31-18:48)
• Cultural and Personal Variation:
  • Styles of worship differ worldwide; what matters is authentic worship in “spirit and truth,” not musical preference or tradition (19:31, 21:20).

6. The Impact and Universality of “Amazing Grace” (21:11, 22:31)

• A Global Hymn:
  • The tune and message cross national and linguistic barriers, with the hymn sung in countless languages; it powerfully images the Revelation ideal of every tribe and tongue worshipping together (22:31).
• Hymns Carrying the Gospel in Secular or Nominal Settings:
  • TJ shares about singing “Amazing Grace” at a Catholic funeral that led to Gospel conversations even when no sermon was given (11:48).

7. Grace in Practice: Forgiveness, Relationships, and the Church (39:16)

• Extending Grace:
  • How church and society often misunderstand or withhold grace, becoming polarized or self-righteous (39:16).
  • The ability/inability to extend grace reveals the degree to which one understands and believes the Gospel (39:55).

8. Theology of Salvation, Sovereignty, and Response (43:17, 49:01)

• Both/And Tensions:
  • Salvation is secure not because of human effort but because, "He grasped you, you didn’t grasp him." (35:23)
  • Tension between God's sovereignty (“election”) and human responsibility to respond is addressed using the “railroad track” metaphor: "parallel tracks in the universe you cannot get your head around. And they’re true because the Word says they’re true..." (47:02)
• Balance vs. Both/And:
  • Church philosophy: Not trying to “balance” discover and deepen, but to “both/and" teach Biblical truths (48:24).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Scandal and Power of Grace:
  "If you rightly preach this grace thing, then people might think that they don't have to do anything to be saved...It makes religious people really, really nervous." – Pastor Adam (04:17)

• On Real Discipleship: "When a preacher rightly preaches grace...the longtime church people get real nervous because it really is scandalous." – Pastor Adam (04:17)

• On Newton and the Hymn:
  "These words were not theory. These...describe his life...He made sailors blush...ran transatlantic slave ships...became a pastor. And that’s where [the hymn] came from." – Pastor Joe (13:12)

• On “Grace that Doesn’t Change You”: "Because the grace that doesn't change you didn't save you. And if you get hit by the grace train, it changes everything." – Pastor Adam (05:48)

• On Universal Impact:
  "You go anywhere and just hum the tune, people will pick it right up and run with it." – Pastor Joe (21:20)

• On Undeserving Grace:
  "It’s not just, it is undeserved, but it’s more than that. It’s ill deserved. We're not just morally neutral, right, towards God...we are, we are enemies of God apart from Christ." – Pastor Joe (31:12)

• On the Father’s Heart:
  "The distance between Allie's dad's capacity to give grace and the capacity for the fountain of grace to give grace is greater than the distance between whatever that sin is and tying your shoe. That’s how big the grace of God is." – Pastor Adam (41:47)

• On the True Reward:
  "He doesn’t say ‘well done, good and fruitful servant.’...He says ‘well done, good and faithful servant’. And if it was based on your activity, then there’d be a fruit measurer outside of heaven saying, ‘you almost did it.’" – Pastor Adam (43:17)

• On Worship and Tradition:
  "We don’t try to harmonize these things...We just try to bless God by worshiping Him in spirit and truth." – Pastor Adam (18:10)

• On the Global Church:
  "I’ve been in many places where everybody’s singing in their own language, but you’re singing the tune of Amazing Grace...the only thing we had in common was this amazing grace that unifies us around the cross." – Pastor Adam (22:31)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Grace as the Radical Distinctive – 02:36, 04:17, 05:28, 23:59
• Amazing Grace – Personal and Collective Impact – 06:26, 09:09, 10:23, 11:48
• John Newton’s Story – 12:50–15:52
• Hymns, Worship, and Church Practice – 17:10, 18:49, 19:31
• Amazing Grace Across the World – 21:11, 22:31
• Practical Implications of Grace – 31:12, 39:16, 39:55
• Theological Tensions: Sovereignty, Effort, Faith – 43:17, 47:02, 48:24, 49:01

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• Grace is not merely a concept, but a life-altering reality that distinguishes Christianity.
• The hymn “Amazing Grace” is a touchstone for both personal testimony and collective worship, across cultures and generations.
• Grace is misunderstood as “cheap” or “license”; however, true grace transforms and compels godly living.
• The Gospel encompasses both the initial act of saving grace and sustaining, sanctifying grace.
• Debates about old versus new worship styles miss the point: authentic worship is oriented to please and glorify God in spirit and truth.
• Salvation and good works are both outcomes of grace—works are evidence, not the basis, of salvation.
• Extending grace to others is rooted in truly embracing the Gospel’s reality for ourselves.

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Final Prayer Highlights (50:52)

"God, thank you for this conversation, Lord. Thank you. That Jesus, you are grace. That you have sought us out when we were far from you and you've brought us near...no matter what we're going to face you have new mercy, new grace for us tomorrow...not because of anything we've done, but because of your work. So we're so grateful for your grace, Lord, and we just give you all the glory tonight. In Jesus name, Amen." – TJ Madison

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This summary is designed to engage and inform both long-time churchgoers and those examining the claims of Christianity, offering clear insights into the “scandal” and the comfort found in grace.

Transcript

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in.

[Podcast Host]

All right, welcome back to the Deepen podcast. We are in our week five of our Worship is War series, unpacking some different, common, familiar hymns throughout church history. And this week is kind of like the hymn of hymns. It is Amazing Grace week. And joining us here tonight is TJ Madison, one of our worship leaders, serving at our Ponte Vedra campus.

[TJ Madison]

Yep.

[Pastor Adam]

Very fun.

[Pastor Joe]

Fancy, fancy.

[Podcast Host]

Except it's in a high school gym, so we have to.

[Pastor Adam]

You know, I love it so much. Of all the places that needed to be portable, St. John's was. First, they needed to be there to sweat Ponte Vedra. Next, they needed to be there to sweat wildlife. They think they're bougie, too. Put em in an elementary school.

[Podcast Host]

That's right.

[Pastor Adam]

Smells like square pizza at that camper.

[Podcast Host]

It's all part of the game. And TJ and his wife just had a baby.

[Pastor Adam]

Let's go.

[Podcast Host]

Congratulations, little Lucy. Yeah. So exciting. Two boys and now a girl. So a little bit of a different thing going on in your family now.

[Pastor Joe]

You'll sleep someday.

[TJ Madison]

Yeah. Yeah. It's been tough at night.

[Podcast Host]

All right. Amazing Grace.

[Pastor Adam]

So I don't feel like a dad should ever say that. I just don't ever say that out loud with women around. If it's just us boys, be like, it's rough, right? Like, it's so rough. But when actual moms are here, be like, I'm just happy to be there. Just glad I get the opportunity. You should talk like a quarterback after a big college football win. You know, the line's blocking great receivers did their job. Coach called the right call. I'm just happy to be here. That's kind of your attitude.

[TJ Madison]

Yes.

[Pastor Adam]

So, you know, it was real life discipleship just happened.

[Podcast Host]

That was. We love that. Okay, so Pastor Adam, Pastor Joe, being in our sermon series, prepping long, long ago.

[Pastor Joe]

Yep.

[Podcast Host]

You were assigned this week. He said, pick a hymn and some scripture, and you went, Amazing Grace and 1 Corinthians 1, 1, 10. How'd you get there?

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah, I mean, when you said, hey, pick a hymn, and I looked at the other ones you had picked, and, I mean, the first thing that came to my mind was Amazing Grace. And a part of me was like, how are you gonna do a series on hymns and not talk about the Hymn of hymn.

[Podcast Host]

It was a test. He was saying, what hymn do you want, Les?

[Pastor Adam]

Congratulations.

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah, not my first rodeo. And I do think that, that what this hymn is talking about, grace is the thing that sets Christianity apart from every other world religion. And we use that word and that concept so ordinarily that we can become numb to it. And so that was why I was just like, I need reminding. We need reminding of, of just how wildly lavish God's grace is and what it is. So yeah, that's kind of.

[Podcast Host]

And then First Corinthians, little obscure for grace text.

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah, there were, you know, there's 250 other passages we could have looked at for grace. But we talked about this in the message that if you look at the context of what's going on in First Corinthians, Paul writes, because there's people sleeping with their mother in laws, there's.

[Pastor Adam]

That's so weird.

[Pastor Joe]

Oh my gosh. I mean, getting drunk on communion, eating everything before people show up for communion. I mean, can you imagine like if that's going on at church, they're suing each other, pagan temple worship is all going on. And you would think if he's going to write to them, it's going to be a letter where he. And he does, he gets, I mean it gets tough love. But the way he starts, of all the places to start with a letter to address that stuff is grace to you. And it's just like. But that, that alone should tell us something about grace.

[Pastor Adam]

I'll tell you when I'm. When a preacher rightly preaches grace, the longtime church people get real nervous because it really is scandalous and hesitation or the fear is, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Pastor. If you rightly preach this grace thing, then people might think that they don't have to do anything to be saved. I know, but doesn't that mean they might go out and do crazy stuff or whatever? They might, but it does, man. It makes religious people really, really nervous. And they really don't think that they are in trouble of being self righteous. They're just afraid that other people are going to be licentious. Yeah, it makes them nervous.

[Podcast Host]

Well, grace like you mentioned, very central to our faith and really what sets us apart. Pastor Joby, you wrote a whole book about grace and which stemmed from something you've said for years. This, this idea of being run over by the grace train. So can you talk a little bit about the need to under. True. Rightly understand grace and how that plays out in the believer's life?

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah, you know my favorite Scottish proverb. I feel like I say this every week. For every mile of Road, there's 2 mile of ditch and 33 years in full time vocational ministry. What I've seen is one misunderstanding of grace is I'm too far gone. Like you don't know what I've done. Grace can't reach me. And there's more grace in Jesus than sin in you.

[Pastor Joe]

Period.

[Pastor Adam]

End dot. But then the other side of the ditch is well sweet. I've received the grace of Jesus. Now I can do whatever I want. No, you can't. Because the grace that doesn't change you didn't save you. And if you get hit by the grace train, it changes everything. You simultaneously understand I did nothing to deserve it. And yet he placed his love and approval on me. So now everything about my life changes. I'm going to walk in a manner worthy of the gospel of Jesus.

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

And that's grace.

[Podcast Host]

Which isn't that so much like the first. What do you call this, tj? The first stanza.

[TJ Madison]

Yeah, that's it.

[Podcast Host]

Amazing grace. How sweet this sounds. So you understand the magnitude of grace. And then the next line that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I'm found. Was blind, but now I see. Like that is what you're talking about. That when you rightly understand grace, it changes everything about your life. So what do y' all feel when you sing Amazing Grace? Or what memories does it stir up? Is there a certain season that God has or moment that God has used this hymn in your own life?

[TJ Madison]

Yeah. I mean, for me, man, it just reminds me that I didn't do anything to earn God's favor or love or approval. That I was lost, I was blind. I needed complete rescue and I couldn't do anything about it. Dead. My sin. And it was only because of his kindness and goodness towards me by his own volition. I didn't, you know, he didn't have to do that for me, but he did because he is a gracious God and I can only be grateful.

[Pastor Adam]

Honestly. Sometimes my mind goes to like funny video clips. I saw this funeral where they just did open mic. It's not a good idea. And this dude gets up there and he's either something's off, like he's. I don't know if he was chemically off or his internal chemical something wasn't right. And he was like, sing with me. Oh, may sing grace. And then he didn't know the words and he's just humming and people are trying to help him and they're trying to find that it didn't. It just wasn't used to YouTube, that. That's pretty fun. So I do think about that. That's terrible, because that's how my wicked mind works. One of the things I think about, you know, you see it at a lot of funerals, but it has got to be one of the most intergenerational, binding songs that we have as a church, you know, and so young kids and old folks and all of us in between can grab on to Amazing Grace. How sweet the sound. Yeah. And so I love that. I mean, it's a big part of the reason I wanted to do this series, focus on the hymns is one. I don't ever want them to be lost. You know, they've just. They've been a tool. They're not to be idolized or worshiped, but they've been a real tool in the hands of God's people to worship God in all kinds of different contexts and all kind of different age groups, you know, for a long, long time. So I think about that. I think about, like, singing it at my grandma's church and me and my grandma, when I'm whatever, probably 20 years old, kind of having some songs we could sing together that were. They kind of tugged at the heartstrings.

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah. I think, for me. So all my grandparents have died, but my dad's mom, we called her Mim. And at the last 10 years of her life, got dementia. And so, you know, I'd call her and as it progressed, you know, we had to give her a list of who's who. We'd tell her to get the list out and all that sort of stuff. And at the end, I mean, she just. She. She didn't remember anything. Anything. And it would agitate her and get her worked up and she'd get upset and all that sort of stuff. But I wasn't going to stop calling my grandma. And so. But what I found was if I called her and I sang hymns with her, it just like it took her to a whole other place. And so I would call her, you know, we talk, and she. You could feel her start to get agitated and I would just go, hey, can we sing? And I don't. I can't remember too many lyrics to a lot of hymns. And I'm a terrible singer. You were in the video. Oh, amazing. That would have been me. O Amazing grace O amazing grace but so that's. I mean, that's a memory that I'll have forever is singing with my grandma.

[Podcast Host]

When 911 happened, President Bush at the time came to Jacksonville to the stadium, and there was a big 911 vigil. Did you live here at that point, Pastor Joby?

[Pastor Adam]

No, it was a few years before.

[Podcast Host]

I moved here and I was in third grade.

[Pastor Adam]

I know, that's adorable.

[Pastor Joe]

That's cute.

[Podcast Host]

Listen, I'm about to say something very profound.

[TJ Madison]

I was in fifth grade.

[Pastor Adam]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Pastor Adam]

So I was married.

[Pastor Joe]

I was ordained the weekend of September 11th.

[Pastor Adam]

Oh.

[Podcast Host]

So my family, we went to the stadium for this 911 service just a couple days after. And I remember the entire stadium acapella sang Amazing Grace. And you know, I'm in third grade. I don't even. I can't even really process what happened, let alone. Yeah, just know the magnitude of it. But I just remember being a really powerful moment. And now in light of that, I just think about when. When a desperate world is trying to make sense of confusing and tragic things. Isn't it funny how hymns like this, we said it's like a simple hymn that people are able to grab a hold of. Then you have a stadium of 80,000 people who are definitely not all following the Lord closely, but they're clinging to some of these truths in a confusing time in our country. It's pretty wild.

[TJ Madison]

I have one story about that too, and it is at a funeral. So my wife's dad passed away a couple years ago and they were die hard Catholics and we went to mass. And amazingly though, he did receive the gospel and believed before he passed, four months before he passed. But we did a traditional Catholic service and the gospel wasn't preached at the funeral. But they asked me to sing Amazing Grace. And so in that way it sparked a lot of conversations about Jesus and grace and who God is, even in a place where the Bible wasn't preached. So the song really, it carried the message of the gospel in that way at his funeral. It was amazing.

[Podcast Host]

So let's talk about the writer a little bit. You unpack some of the history. But John Newton, what a character. Before we press record, Pastor Adam, I think you were being inspired to write a book about John Newton.

[Pastor Joe]

No, no, I got some other things. No, I actually brought. So yeah, John Newton, this is, this is a modern version. But he wrote a thing called the Authentic Narrative. And it's a series of seven letters that he wrote to a friend about his life and then his friend published them. So he was born in London 300 years ago this year. And I mean, you want to talk about like these words Were not theory. These are. These describe his life. Like, he only had two years of schooling. His mom died when he was, I think, seven or eight. His dad married like, three weeks later after his mom died. His dad was a ship captain. He was on a slave ship by the time he was 11. Grew up in that. I mean, made sailors blush. He would have these moments with God, and then he would go right back to it. He fell in love with this girl he called Polly, and it took years before he could marry her. He was enslaved in Africa for a while by a African wife of a slave trader. Wrap her head around that one, I mean. And ran number of transatlantic slave ships. Came back, became a port, like overseeing the port near London. Took bribes left and right, Ended up becoming friends with John Wesley Whitfield. All these guys. Lord gets hold of him, and he becomes a Church of England pastor. And they don't allow anything but hymns to be sung in their buildings. I mean, psalms to be sung in their buildings. And so he starts writing a song, almost a song a week, to re. To emphasize his preaching. And they would do it over in this little house across the way from the building. And so he would preach, and then they would sing the song. And that's where this came from. It was a New Year's Day sermon on First Chronicles about David.

[Pastor Adam]

So you guys are too young to know this probably, but Adam and I are not. For a decade or more, churches kind of went through worship wars about what was okay and what was not okay. I mean, obviously you've heard about it, but I doubt y' all experienced that. Right, Right. And when you tell people that are just tried and true. My God, if Jesus sang the hymns, we're going to sing the hymns, which. That's a joke because they were written 1500 years after he lived anyway. And you say things like, did you know Amazing Grace was not originally allowed to be sung in the church it was written in because it was contemporary music. They're like, no, that can't be true. Like, it's true.

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

It's kind of crazy, isn't it?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

What the kind of perspective a little bit of time will give you?

[Podcast Host]

No doubt.

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joe]

We don't even know that the original tune.

[Pastor Adam]

Right.

[Pastor Joe]

Like, the tune we have really is at least 50 years later.

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joe]

Somewhere from the United States, we think, called New Britain, but probably a bar, dude. There are all kinds of tunes that were sung to. And I mean, just the last kind of interesting fact. The. The stanza that says, when We've been there 10,000 years bright shining the sun we have no less days to sing God's praise Than when we first begun. That is a. That's a stanza from Uncle Tom's Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe, and a guy named Excel took it, stuck it in. So it's not even original. It's not original to the song. So, I mean, there's. The song has like, lived this life. That's crazy.

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah. One of the things, like Luther was famous for this. The Wesley brothers were famous for this. Like A Mighty Fortress is Our God was a straight drinking pub song in England. The tune was. And he just. Weird. I'll yank. Evict it and made. Y' all don't know who that is either?

[Podcast Host]

No, I do know.

[Pastor Adam]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

I love that you just.

[Pastor Adam]

But he. That's what he did. And he just made up his own words and it's a mighty fortress is our God. And the church went. Lost their ever loving mind over that. They're like this. And now people think it's the foundation of our faith.

[Pastor Joe]

Right.

[TJ Madison]

Original worship war.

[Pastor Adam]

It is. Yeah, totally.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, well, this is a little bit in line with that, but what is the. I don't want to say the balance, but the partnership between singing hymns that have been tried and true throughout the church for many, many generations and singing new songs that come out. Like, what's your philosophy or your approach around that? Pastor Joby, I.

[Pastor Adam]

We sing songs that we think make God happy.

[Pastor Joe]

That's right.

[TJ Madison]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

Because my. Our aim is not at people. It's not what we like. It's not what you like. That's not what it is that we try to.

[Pastor Joe]

We.

[Pastor Adam]

We aim for doxological excellence. And so first and foremost, we're going to sing songs that are true. Right. Because Jesus told the woman, the Samaritan woman at the well, Jesus, that God is not looking for worship. He's looking for worshipers that worship him in spirit and in truth. And so you got to have both power and word. And you see some power churches, man, and they sing some incredible powerful stuff. It's not true, but man, it's good. You know what I mean?

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah. Get you all stirred up.

[Pastor Adam]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. But. But it's just not true. So, you know, talk about. Anyway, I won't pick on anybody right now. And then you got some word churches. It's incredible. There just no power. It's just so bl. And so we. We. We don't try to harmonize these things. We don't try to balance these things. We just try to bless God by worshiping him in spirit and truth. And some of these songs, the reason that they're so popular for so long is because they're full of both power and word, you know, it's good.

[Podcast Host]

Go ahead.

[TJ Madison]

Yeah. I think what's interesting, the hymns teach such rich theology. Maybe that's why they've been around for a long time and God ordained it. It's interesting with the worship movement when people started writing songs that were very personal, like I'm gonna sing a song about God to God, like draw me close to you or you know, in the 90s, the 2000s. So it's interesting that it went from very, just like theological truths to very personal, repetitive, maybe a little bit more heartfelt language. But I think both are powerful and needed.

[Pastor Adam]

Listen, it's all the music thing is crazy. It's just subjective to your own preferences. Like do you think God's listening and he likes whatever they sing in China? I don't know what they sing in China, but it's Chinese versus what they're singing in South America. Does not sound the same. What they're singing in the dirt floors under the banana trees of the churches we plant in Africa. None of these things sound the same. Do you think one is more holy than the other? I mean, a part of the reason there's such rich theology in the hymns is because it was like the smartest white dudes out of England who had gone to these Christian schools their entire life and had a command of the English language like Shakespeare are writing these things. They're going to be theologically rich. I don't think God is more pleased by that than when, I don't know, some pure hearted 20 year old worship leader spills out their heart with a guitar. And so that's the thing, that's what we're doing. Worship and truth, Worship and truth. You know, I mean, both of these things are spirit and truth. And so the whole, like I would be very, very. This is all the way back to that. In the arena series. It is not the critic who counts. So one of the things we're not going to do is sit back with our hands in our pocket and tell everybody how they're not worshiping God. Right? We're just going to get in the arena and we're going to mix it up. I mean, sometimes people giggle at me about what I. I don't make suggestions. The songs that I say we're going to sing and I'm like, just trust me, kids, you know, we're going to sing true things with a lot of meat behind it. And here we go.

[Podcast Host]

Pastor Adam, you travel all over the world. Is this. Is Amazing Grace sung like it is here? Is it sung around the world?

[Pastor Joe]

In general, yes, but because of the relationship of America to England, specifically 250 years ago, I mean, it traveled so quickly from there to here. And I mean, there was these. They had. They called them tune books. And I mean, they were all getting printed in the time of the Civil War, and then it got picked up post Civil War. I mean, one of the things that's interesting about Newton is he mentored William Wilberforce, who was the guy that ended the slave trade in England. And so there is a. Because of some of that relationship, it get picked. It gets picked up in kind of the Civil War era, and then it gets picked back up in the civil rights era. So I think it. It holds a place in the United States that's maybe a little different than the rest of the world, but it gets sung everywhere. Yeah, I mean, you. If you go anywhere and just hum the tune, people will pick it right up and run with it.

[Pastor Adam]

It's also neat because it's such a familiar tune in so many places especially impacted by the West. I've been in many, many places where everybody's singing in their own language, but you're singing the tune of Amazing Grace and it, you know, it feels a little maybe revelationy where every tribe, tongue and nation are all singing holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. You know, cuz like. Or another thing that's really cool. We were in Israel and right outside of the pool of Bethesda, there's this old Byzantine church. And the acoustics of it, everybody knows, it's just so awesome. And my favorite is when whoever's turn it is, it's kind of like a little karaoke kind of thing, right? Everybody takes their turn in the middle to sing whatever. But when you do, especially Amazing Grace, I can remember there were some folks from Korea next to me and Peru right over here. And you know, there's just all these different nationalities and again in their own language and everybody's just singing about this amazing grace of God. And the only thing these people we. I was in there too. The only thing we had in common was this amazing grace that. That unifies us around the cross.

[TJ Madison]

Wow.

[Pastor Adam]

It's pretty cool.

[Podcast Host]

It is cool. Let's talk about that grace, the scandalous grace. Why is it so central to Christianity? How does it set us apart from every other world religion?

[Pastor Adam]

There's this really famous story, we've all heard it a million times. But C. S Lewis is a professor at Oxford, and he's walking the halls, and the religion department is in there having a debate, and they're writing all of the things that all the world religions have in common on the chalkboard. And the list is long. We all sing, we all have scriptures, there's all. We all have devotion, there's charity, there's take care of weirdos and orphans, you know, and they read. They. He comes walking through, they stick their head out and they say, hey, Jack, come here. They call him Jack. That was his nickname, after his dog, I think they hold Jack. We postulate that all religions are fundamentally the same and only superficially different. What makes Christianity different? And he just takes a big fat eraser, erases a big chunk in the middle. It writes the word grace, drops the chalk, and in his CS Lewis way, just Mike drops and walks out. Because all religions are superficially the same. We have buildings and we have worship services and we have people, but fundamentally, there's nothing like it. And grace is the difference. Every other religion is God. What do I do to get to you? And the message of the gospel is by grace, he came and got us. Yeah, it's just not the same.

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah, I mean, Christianity, to that same point, is fundamentally different because every other world religion says, you behave, you work, you achieve your way up to God. And Christianity says, no, God worked. God came down to us and we receive him. And those are two completely different. Yeah, they're just two completely different systems. They're. They're fundamentally different in that.

[Pastor Adam]

And I think. I mean, Adam and I for the last, whatever, 15 years have been a part of a movement of the resurgence of gospel centrality in the church. You know, grace centrality in the church. Because somehow what happened in the evangelical church is everybody's like, of course grace gets you in the game, but then you better get to work. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, flip over 14 chapters in First Corinthians. He's like, let me remind you of what I preached, which is of first importance, that this gospel not only saves you, but sustains you, sanctifies you, not just justifies you. Well, I mean, one of the things that's pretty cool is one of the verses. Through many dangerous tools and snares we have already come. Twas grace that brought us safe this far, and grace will leave us home. So you never graduate from grace. You never. Grace is not like the ABCs where you're like, well, I don't need grace anymore because now I'm going to be righteous by my own merit.

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

That is the sustaining grace of God that calls us back to the cross over and over and over and over.

[Pastor Joe]

And you see grace. I mean, it is that in that personal way, but you see it on a big macro level that it is the red thread that's woven throughout. I mean, scripture starts in the beginning. God created. So it begs the question, well, why did God create? Did he create because we compelled him to? Well, no, we didn't exist. Was God needy? No, he was perfectly fine in and of himself, the triune God. So God. The whole thing starts out of a completely free overflow of God. So you would go, well, the whole so first starts with grace, and then, I mean, you can just track it. Like, why doesn't God just end Adam and Eve on the spot? Why does he go, I'm going to send somebody grace. Grace. You get to Genesis 12 with Abraham, I'm going to bless you to be a blessing. What's that? Grace. Why does he take them out of Egypt? Grace. They rebel in the. You know, in the desert. Why does he sustain him?

[Pastor Adam]

Grace.

[Pastor Joe]

I mean, the whole thing all the way until you get to the end in Revelation and we go home. The whole thing is grace.

[Podcast Host]

We just started House of David.

[Pastor Adam]

So good.

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah.

[TJ Madison]

So good.

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah. Season two's not publicly out, but it's coming out.

[Podcast Host]

You got insider access.

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah. The guy that does it all is a 1122 fan. So there was a big premiere. I couldn't go because I'm going to be somewhere. And so anyway, he sent me, like, a little private.

[TJ Madison]

Wow, that's awesome.

[Podcast Host]

Well, it's really good, but because it's good.

[Pastor Adam]

Good. It's like, it was real.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's legit good.

[Pastor Adam]

Like, legit good. And, you know, the whole family can watch because, you know, it's not gonna get weird.

[Podcast Host]

Except, I mean, the. We're only in, like, episode two. The Amalekite leader is terrifying, truly terrifying. So I wouldn't really want, like, my young kids seeing that. But anyway, you think about Saul's life, or I was thinking about Saul's life watching the depiction of it. And we just watched the scene where Samuel comes and says, you built a tower that says that gives all the glory to yourself. And he removes the anointing from Saul. And you just think about grace is what had Saul in the position of leadership. He's in the entire time for his reign, and yet he took that As I got this, I can do this. And went in like that other ditch you're talking about. And anyway, it was just an interesting. As you're saying, the scarlet thread throughout the Bible is grace.

[Pastor Adam]

A great misunderstanding of God between Old Testament and New Testament. It's like Old Testament, God was mean and grumpy and then Christmas happened and now he's full of grace. Like, no, no, no, no, dude, he's so patient, he's so gracious. And the reason that God demonstrates grace is because God can only act within his own character and nature and he is gracious. And that grace, you know, overflows the right word. I mean I say this all the time when I'm trying to describe the creation. Out of an overflow of God's love for God's self, it spilled out onto the canvas of this world and he created image bearers. His love for him, himself spilled out into us. And that spilling is an act of grace. Yeah, like, and the old school definition is still real dang good. Like unmerited favor. We don't bring any merit to the equation. That acronym like God's redemption at Christ's expense is a really good way to remember that.

[TJ Madison]

Yeah, I think that's such great news too because the reason it's great news is because you don't have to merit God's favor. Like you don't have to perform. And I think sometimes as Christians we're like, man, I gotta, I gotta do something to please God, like my living, I gotta make sure he's happy with me. But because of his grace and kindness towards us, he has given us everything we need for Godliness. Like he's given us Christ.

[Pastor Joe]

I think I talked about this in the message and I don't know that I have the words to go far enough with this idea. But it's not just, it is undeserved, but it's more than that. It's ill deserved.

[Pastor Adam]

Right?

[Pastor Joe]

Like we, we're not just morally neutral, right, towards God, we're not in a neutral position towards God for which he would just go, well here you, it, it's 50, 50. We are, we are enemies of God apart from Christ, right? Like we, we are, we are in direct opposition to God in our sin. And if you think about that like the, the God of the universe freely sends his son to live, die, be resurrected, and then adopt us as children when we are spitting in his face and just railing. You know, you said again the David thing, like David, you know, just, you know, but we're, we're railing against God. And then God goes, come here. And so it's.

[Podcast Host]

It.

[Pastor Joe]

It's not. It's so much more than undeserved.

[Pastor Adam]

Yes, it's.

[Pastor Joe]

It is ill deserved.

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah. The. I was lost but now I'm found and blind but now I see. He was obviously grabbing from Luke, chapter 15, John chapter nine.

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

But the depths of those realities is not. It wasn't. You were just randomly lost. You were a glad part of an uprising to try to dethrone the God of the universe.

[Podcast Host]

Yep.

[Pastor Adam]

And then he adopted you as son.

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah, that. That prodigal son. I mean, we can talk a lot about how he comes home, but the way he left was. I mean, it was the middle finger to the father.

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Spitting in his dad's.

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pastor Joe]

And. And then the father humiliates himself to go get his son while his son is still trying to justify all his behavior.

[TJ Madison]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

There's a lot of commentators and theologians that believe I'm in this camp that that was a. That the. What we know as the prodigal son story was in existence in the first century. Everybody knew that story. It had a different ending. The ending was he comes home and there was an honor killing by the elders at the gate. And everybody's like, as it should be. So when Jesus starts telling the story, everybody's like, oh, this is a good one. You know, the Pharisees, like, I love this story. Especially when the kid gets stoned at the end. Can't wait for that part. And then Jesus freaking Tarantino's that thing. I didn't see him going that way. And they're like, wait, what?

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

You know, and especially in that. In that shame honor culture. Yeah, dude. And that's. And it's by grace. And the answer, the why to all these questions is the glory of God.

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah.

[TJ Madison]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

Like this is. I mean, can you. There's no other scenario that we can come up with in our minds by which God is more glorified.

[Pastor Joe]

That's right.

[Pastor Adam]

Them being the author and finisher slash perfecter of our faith of being just and the justifier of being the ones that set the rules into existence whereby sin enters, and only by blood is sin atoned for. And then he decides to shed his own blood to adopt a traitorous race.

[Pastor Joe]

I mean, it's so interesting how we think our right behavior is going to somehow impress God and that's going to bring God more glory instead of no God. I bring nothing to this equation. You and you alone did 100% like, think about standing before God and what brings God the most glory. Hey, God, I tried really hard. You should let me in or, I don't know, I'm. I'm here with the man on the middle cross. Yeah, you did everything. You get all the credit.

[Pastor Adam]

So I think part of the reason, part of the way Adam and I know each other is years ago, before he even started working here, theologically, we found ourselves aligned in this little camp of pastors that it's just trying to hammer the gospel, the gospel of grace. So when it comes to things like can a person lose your salvation? And they go, well, of course you can, then you're like, you don't understand what grace is. You've missed the whole boat here. So if you think you can lose it, then it's clear to me you're very unclear on how it was ever within your grasp to begin with. Because he grasped you, you didn't grasp him. You know these kind of things now. I think you grew up more Presbyterian, I grew up more Baptist. So what would happen in my world is, of course it's by grace that you're saved. So you did not. You were not employed by God based on any, based on your resume. But now that you're on the staff, you better get to work or you might get kicked out. And even though we were taught and believed, once saved, always saved, it was like, I'm just telling you, when he returns, if you're at the rated R movie, you're gonna be left behind. And there was just this fear of, am I doing enough? I mean, I'm telling you. And it's probably because too, I wasn't really plugged into like a good local church. I was just kind of like camp to camp to camp. And if you want to up your evangelism numbers as an itinerant speaker, just teach wheat and tares every time and have all the Christians get resaved because it's easy to make them 13 year olds question their salvation. And there's just a lot of that which is a complete undermining of the grace of God in your life. Now, again, I wrote a whole book, it's like the anti Cheap grace book because it'll change everything. But if you don't get grace and all, and it's kind of like you said, I. And it's almost impossible to be like, I get grace right? You know, it's a constant. Listen, one of my one mores. I've been praying this guy for a long time and I finally give him to Church and we show the Ike Brown video and he's out. He's like, nope, if that's what this is about, I'm not into it. Because if somebody killed my son, I'm killing them. Period. End dot. And I don't care. He actually gets grace. You don't want it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, right.

[Pastor Adam]

Maybe one day he will, but he understands the cost of grace. He actually counted the cost and said, no thanks, I only want justice.

[TJ Madison]

Wow.

[Pastor Adam]

You know what I mean?

[TJ Madison]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

He wouldn't use those. Yeah, no, I know. But for sure, that's different than somebody had an emotional response to something and says, okay, I think I'm in. Yeah.

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

But grace is in my opinion, one of the most misunderstood and foundational doctrines of the entire church. I will tell you this, here's how it plays out in our society because the church can misunderstand grace and for sure our society just. We don't give grace to each other. It's so stinking polarized and people are just a million miles away from each other, looking at each other in two dimensional images and just lobbing bombs at each other and not giving a little bit of grace to one another, you know, because. And what I mean by that, I know we, we'll use that terminology, right. Which you talked about in your sermon, how it's just kind of common vernacular, but when we say, hey man, show a little grace to that guy. What I think what you're saying is the amount of grace that God has shown to you, could you let that overflow and you gonna just choose to trust a little bit or okay, he or she misspoke or you know, and it is a complete misunderstanding of grace. Yeah.

[Pastor Joe]

I found every time I don't extend grace to somebody, like I'm not forgiving, I'm not understanding, I'm not like all the fruit of the spirit. That, that just points out an aspect of the gospel, particularly grace that I don't believe in that moment, like I might articulate it. But I think it's why Jesus in, you know, in when he's teaching him to pray and he says, forgive me as I forgive others. It's like you do you. If you really got what a wretch like I am, I'd have so much grace for you.

[TJ Madison]

Ali.

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you.

[Pastor Adam]

Wow.

[Pastor Joe]

That turned tables on me.

[Pastor Adam]

It is so.

[Podcast Host]

This is a silly illustration, but when I was really young, it's like one of my earliest memories. I was on a plane with my family and I couldn't tie my shoe and I was getting so frustrated to the point of crying. And I saw my dad see that I couldn't tie my shoe. And I remember thinking, like, he's about to be so, so mad at me because I can't tie my shoe. Which obviously, as adults now, like, we don't like. Yeah, you're a little kid. You had just learned how to tie your shoes. You couldn't tie your shoes. And I remember my dad looking over at me and being so kind and felt so bad that I was emotional about it and really met me with what I can see now as grace. And it's. Again, it's a silly illustration, but that is the life of us as believers. Like, we think we're like, okay, I just gotta do this thing or else God's gonna be mad or I'm not gonna live up to it. He's. He's up there just looking at us like a loving father. Like, no, just bring it to me. You know, I don't.

[Pastor Adam]

The best illustrations are the ones that everybody can get on board with. And so I don't think it's silly at all because it's so obvious.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

That only a crooked dad would, like, yell at their child for not being able to tie their shoe when they just learn it. Right. And you're like, of course a good dad. Okay. So when Jesus would teach parables, parable means to lay aside. So sometimes he'd teach parable and be like, well, see, God's not like that at all. And then sometimes, especially when he talked about God as father, he would say, okay, so if an imperfect dad that was born with a sin nature, if he could show grace to his little girl like this, how much more would a perfect God, who is the source of grace show to you?

[TJ Madison]

That's right.

[Pastor Adam]

And I think the human instinct is like, yeah, but she was just talking about tying her shoe. And I'm talking about the abortion I had. Do you see the distance between these two? To which, parabolically you would say, yeah, yeah, but the distance between Allie's dad's capacity to give grace and the capacity for the fountain of grace to give grace is greater than the difference between whatever that sin is that you're most ashamed of and you tie in your shoe. That's how big the grace of God is.

[Pastor Joe]

And. And how good is God's grace that it would extend to a little girl tying her shoe?

[Pastor Adam]

Right.

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah, like that. That's how expansive it is. Like, it. Thank God it covers the abortion.

[Pastor Adam]

Amen.

[Pastor Joe]

And thank God it covers the little girl about to melt down on the airplane.

[Pastor Adam]

Amen.

[Pastor Joe]

Like it's.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's good.

[Pastor Joe]

There is no aspect of our life that is like, well, grace can't go there.

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joe]

Big or small. And so. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, so then let's lay this against, you know, you. The words you want to hear. Well done, good and faithful servant. So what's. How do you reconcile these two ideas that we're talking about of this overflow of grace? We do nothing. And there is a category of the life of the believer in what we do.

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah. I think Ephesians 2 is probably the best place where these two things are most closely aligned. Like the word distance is none. I mean none. Like you're saved by grace through faith. All right. And not by works so that no one can boast. And then immediately after this. And you are God's workmanship prepared from before the foundation of time for good works. So the idea that the good news of the gospel is not anti effort, it's just anti earning. That's the difference. So we're not working so that we hear well done, good and faithful servant. But because we have received the good news of the gospel, the free gift of grace, the one way love of God towards us, it motivates or compels us to be about the Father's business. Because here's the difference. He doesn't say well done, good and fruitful servant. And if it was based on your activity, then there'd be like a fruit measurer outside of heaven saying, you almost did it.

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's interesting because so I get to work with a bunch of our preachers here and teach in, you know, our internship class and stuff like that. And one of the things we talk about is inviting people to receive the grace of God in Jesus Christ. And it's like, hey, this needs to be a part of your sermon. And inevitably we get to the like, basically I'm scared. What if nobody responds?

[Pastor Adam]

So.

[Pastor Joe]

And I just go, but it's all by grace. So if it's all by grace, then grace your fears relieve. So sling it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joe]

Like it's God's going to do what God wants to do. It is his sovereign grace. You don't have to worry about that. You just make the invitation and then you get to close your Bible, walk off the platform, go eat fried chicken, take a nap, watch NASCAR. And it's all fine, whether 347 people or nobody, because it's all grace. And so it's not dependent on me either way. Therefore to the point is, therefore I'm free to run so hard after those things, and I don't have to earn a thing for it.

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah. And then I've mentioned. This will be the third time now, in the kind of the theological world that camp, whatever you want to call it, that Pastor Adam and I find ourselves in, one of the incredible deficiencies there is these. These high sovereignty of God and salvation. These highly reformed guys don't ask people to put their faith in Jesus.

[TJ Madison]

Yes.

[Pastor Adam]

And I'm like, what are you doing? So at Acts 29, which is, you know, that's our crew, when they asked me to preach, which is a lot. Now I'm just like, please tell me you're the kind of Calvinist that thinks God delights in saving his people. Some of you can't get past total depravity. That's not the good one. You got to keep going, man. You got to go get.

[Pastor Joe]

The angels are rejoicing.

[Pastor Adam]

Join them. Right?

[Pastor Joe]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

You know, so. And oftentimes, that's. People like to use your language, trying to find a balance.

[TJ Madison]

Screw balance.

[Pastor Adam]

Say the things that are just true and use Bible words. You know, when. When John MacArthur passed away recently, I somehow in my algorithm, a bunch of his quotes came up and all these things. Okay. And one of them that I loved most because, I mean, he's pretty hard line guy, all right.

[TJ Madison]

And.

[Pastor Adam]

And it's whatever. One of my favorite things about him is Kyle Thompson from Unalted Life. He loves to say, nothing will help you. Nothing will make you doubt your salvation more. More than listening to a John MacArthur seminar about the assurance of your salvation. You're like, oh, God, am I in or not? Okay.

[TJ Madison]

Grace to you.

[Pastor Adam]

But one of somebody was asking him, how do you harmonize God's will that all would be saved and God's election? And he's like, who said you had to harmonize? And then he just starts spitting truth from the scriptures about all who call on the name of the Lord, who will be saved. And that Jesus says, you didn't choose me. I chose you. He said, these are parallel tracks in the universe you cannot get your head around. And they're true because the Word says they're true and because of Christ's life, death, and resurrection. And it was one of the most beautiful and succinct understandings of our very limited understanding of God's sovereignty in salvation and election and our role and agency and participation in it. And those things are not in conflict any more than the left rail and the right Rail of a railroad are in conflict one another.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

This is the structure by which the train rolls.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. You've always been a both and pastor preacher. We're a Bothan church. You denied that. We have to choose between discover or deepen when it comes to the discipleship of our people. And it's one of the things I love most about our church. Like we're just not going to say, yeah, we're anti. Balance. We're not trying to balance the scales. That's impossible. We're just trying to be a both and church. Like we believe everything the Bible says.

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah. And let me. Here's some questions. Do you think you're born good or bad? Do you think you're born righteous or sinful? I'm asking you, Adam.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, sinful.

[Pastor Adam]

Great. Do you think you got saved because of your goodness? Nope. Great. Do you think everybody goes to heaven or just people that believe?

[Podcast Host]

Just people that believe.

[Pastor Adam]

Right. You think you can lose your salvation?

[Podcast Host]

I think it's the wrong question.

[Pastor Adam]

Even better. Even better.

[TJ Madison]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

That's just tulip. I just used different words. I didn't use words like unconditional election or limited at home it. Which aren't Bible. I mean, those words aren't Bible. I told them it's a Bible word, but all I did was just use other words. So, yes, God is sovereign over salvation and yes, you have a responsibility to receive the gift of God. Both of those things are true.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Adam]

And so, you know, depending on the text, we just teach what it says as we're there. Yeah.

[Pastor Joe]

I think it's, you know, to your question of like, are we saved? And then we get to work. You know, there's the past that says that it's God who wills and works in us.

[Pastor Adam]

Yes.

[Pastor Joe]

And I think that's so helpful. Like, I need God to will and work in me from the moment he sets me alive till the day I draw my last breath. I need it. I mean, I know the truths, but just. And then experientially on top of that is I don't have enough power in myself. I don't.

[Pastor Adam]

True.

[Pastor Joe]

And God help me if I ever get to the place that I think I'm good enough to run the next 30, 40, 50 years on my own power.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Amen. TJ will you pray for us as we close?

[Pastor Adam]

Yeah.

[TJ Madison]

God, thank you for this conversation, Lord. Thank you. That Jesus, you are grace. That you have sought us out when we were far from you and you've brought us near. And God, we just thank you that man your grace is going to sustain us to the end. You're not going to let us go. And so no matter what we're going through, no matter what we're going to face that you have new mercy, new grace for us tomorrow. Lord and God, we just thank you for these amazing truths that we can walk, just enjoy and knowing that you're for us, that your goodness is for us, not because of anything we've done, but because of your work. And so we're so grateful for your grace, Lord, and we just give you all the glory tonight. In Jesus name, Amen.

[Podcast Host]

Amen.

[Pastor Adam]

Thank you for listening to the podcast the End. You nailed it.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

The reality is everything already belongs to God and when we give financially, we're acknowledging that we trust him. If you just watch this and feel led to make a donation, text the word donate to 441-122 or visit coe22.com donate. Your generosity is not only an act of worship, but an investment so all people can discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus.