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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in.
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B
Paul says that I'm writing. He gives his reason why he's writing.
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A
Helpful.
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B
This section which is so helpful, what you pointed out, Pastor. He said so that you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God. So there's ways to behave and there's ways you ought not to behave. What's a way you're not supposed to behave in your house. House, Pastor Britt.
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C
Well, in my house. House, where you're not supposed to talk back, you're not supposed to interrupt. I'd have to think. We don't have a laundry, a long list of rules.
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A
And then what about for the kids?
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C
Yeah.
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A
Our. Some of our, like are. You just have to understand other people live there.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So like, if mama wants to take a nap, which she hardly ever does except Sundays, but you just can't walk into the room assuming all attention is on you. That's for me. That's for the kids. Or if I'm taking a nap. Same thing. Or if the kids are doing homework. It's not like we have a mini. We don't have like multiple rooms to do homework. Then you've just got to be respectful that there's four of us. Yeah, sometimes that live there.
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C
Are you a big napper?
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A
No, except on Sunday afternoons. Yeah, but I am a big cab. Haven't seen the end of a movie in a long time.
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C
Fall asleep faster.
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A
Fall asleep on the couch. But I don't like, be like I'm going to take a nap. No. It just happens to me and, you know, but I get angry.
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C
Do you ever nap?
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B
I have a hard time. It's like, it's got to come on me and I gotta, like, take advantage of it. Otherwise I miss the window.
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C
I read an article today that said the best time of day to nap is 1:42pm let's go. And the. The ideal nap is 44 minutes long.
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A
Huh.
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B
I always thought it was like 20, but I can never.
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A
Like, Reagan would nap with his keys in his hand. Have you ever heard this one?
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C
Yeah, I thought I heard it was a CEO something.
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A
Yeah, maybe that. I thought it was Reagan, but yeah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You know, because it's like just enough to reset, but when the keys fall out, it'll wake you back up.
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B
So when I think about My household. I think about all the things that my parents would say about, like, like either frustrations or whatever, and then you look at your own house like, dang, I'm doing the same thing. My, my parents would always, or my mom especially would tell me, if I say something to you, you have to answer back because I would.
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C
That's a good one.
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B
You know what I mean?
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C
And my kids are notorious. One of them, for sure, about. We'd be speaking in their direction and they just wanted to say words back.
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B
Yeah, mine too. I just, I was saying that this week. I was like, I'm speaking right to you and you're just looking at me. So do you understand the words that are coming out of my face? And it's weird, man. But, but. So, yeah, the field guy for the Family of God is what we've called this study in First Timothy and is.
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A
Where it comes from.
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B
Yeah, it's, it's a really helpful picture. It's like, hey, this is how we behave as a church. It's almost like church culture. That's a kind of a buzzword, right?
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A
Yeah.
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B
And, and that, that's essentially just means how you behave. Right.
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A
So a lot of the correlation is like, in my household, I want us to conduct ourselves in a way that is honoring to God and honoring and respectful to one another that would also translate into the family. So, like, I was talking to this lady tonight in worship or afterwards, but she's a very, very charismatic, full body dancer kind of worship person. And she was, she was kind of checking. She was like, is it cool? Because sometimes I get the whispers of condemnation. But what I heard you say tonight, and I was like, listen, you're doing the Corinthians things of checking with the elders to make sure. And I think it's great you have my permission to dance your heart away. And you're like, it's good. It doesn't look awkward. You don't look like Elaine from Seinfeld trying to, you know, that'd be bad. But it's cool. She's trying to express her joy in the Lord and be respectful to not make it about herself. So that's kind of like in our house, if you're ever making it about yourself, you're not doing the right thing. So, like, if you're being a mess, you're not. You're making it about you. You're not thinking about who else is going to clean up after you. I'm, I'm guilty of this. Gretchen always wants to take our shoes off and I don't like doing it, but I need to because I'm thinking of everybody else. You know, same thing in the church, if you're thinking all about you, what you've done is you've turned a family into a source of goods and services. And I mentioned that tonight. And if you're thinking about church that way, it's wrong. You got to think about this. You say this all the time, Brit. The church isn't a place to go. It's a people to belong to. And when you belong to a people, you have other people under the glory of God in mind.
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C
I was thinking about it tonight when you were preaching. It's a good question about my. In my own household, because I try to think about them similarly as much as possible. And one of the things that I like, if I'm just struggling with, you know, whatever worry, fear, anxiety, or I'm just struggling with, like, a challenge that I just can't figure out, the solved a problem, whatever the challenge is in my life, you know, one of the things that my home is with my family is a place where I'm reminded, where I hear, I believe and I enjoy. That's what I was. The three words I was thinking about tonight was like, in my house, I hear the sounds of my house, and it reminds me of all the things that I believe that are true about God's faithfulness. And it's the place, maybe more than anywhere else, where I can enjoy life and enjoy being me and enjoy being with the people that I love. And I think that's so anchored into the household of God is this place where we hear, we believe, and we enjoy. That third one is the one you will never do. If the church is a place of goods and services, you will never really enjoy it.
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A
That's right.
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C
Until you belong to it.
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A
You know, I think, too, we use on staff, we use the term humble confidence a lot. You know, we walk in humble confidence. I think a rightly ordered home will help you live in that humble confidence. Right. Nobody calls you Pastor Bread at home, do they? Never again will really keep you humble. I mean, it's funny, my neighbor is Jeff Kopp, who played in the NFL for six years and, you know, on top of the world. And we. We tend to take out the trash all the time at the same time. You know, we always see each other, and it's just. It's just like, I don't care who you are, you got to take trash out, you know, and so you get that kind of humility at Home, because they're like, okay, neat people line up to say hey to you and get you to sign books in one arena of your life, but ain't nobody lining up at home. And yet there's this other part of your life, especially for. I mean, this is true for all of us. But in this year of stand firm and act like men, you have this almost overwhelming responsibility that of all the people in the world that God would trust with the humans that live at your house, he's entrusted you, man. So there's a part of that that ought to transfer into the church, too. Like, you know, you're a big deal, but not nearly as big a deal as you think you are, and yet God would choose you to be a part of this kingdom advancement, and it ain't about you. These things are simultaneously true in the church and at home.
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B
A really good companion text to this topic is First Corinthians 12. And I just was. I read it recently, so I was thinking about it, and it's where it talks about all the gifts, right? It talks about. And it talks about the fact that we use them together, and we use them to help each other and think rightly about yourself and think rightly about others. The phrase. So he says, the household of God, the church of the living God, which is a pillar and buttress of the truth. And those are kind of funny words. And I actually have looked up. What is that? What do they mean? Because we don't really use. I mean, do you have pillars and buttresses in your house? I don't. I don't know.
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A
I don't know.
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B
I don't know that I do. I don't know that I do.
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A
It's architectural terminology.
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B
It's architectural terminology for sure. And I think. I think it means, like, the column and then the foundation that upholds something, right? Basically. So what does that mean? If it's for the truth?
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A
That means that the church's job is to lift up, hold, secure the truth. I think a parallel text to that would be Jesus talking about salt and light and city on a hill, that that is in relationship to the lies of this world. Like, there's truth that preserves holiness and human flourishing and godliness, and then there are lies that tear those things apart. So I think this church has experienced a lot of it in the last, like, political season, because there was a bunch of times where some people would be like, are you getting political? But no, no, hold on, man. We have been in the truth lane since. Since 2000 years ago. And this Weird crazy thing was happening in our society is happening in our society where it's like the government is swinging into the theological lanes, trying to like redefine marriage and male and female and all that kind of stuff. And we are supposed to be a pillar and buttress of the truth. There's not your truth and my truth, those are called opinions. There is the truth, which is the word of God. And the church is to put the truth of God on display in every season and situation and culture for the glory of God and for human flourishing. The reason we're doing. The reason you hold up the truth is not to be right. The reason you hold up the truth is because outside of it, you're not going to, you're not, you're not going to even going to break God's word. You're going to break yourself against it. That's not, I didn't make that up. But that's. So when you, when you live in alignment with God's word, with the truth, things go better in your life. And we are for. That's what we're for for people.
- [09:50]
B
You can sometimes, I mean, depending on who you are, you might forget that there's like, if you've been in the church a while or if you've been following Christ for a while, you can forget that you have a lot of fundamental questions about life and about the world and about yourself. They're answered for you. Right. And so you haven't figured out, but just take a step back and think, before I knew Christ or the people who don't know him, they don't have any kind of compass for the truth. Right. So you think about how the, the household of God, the family of God is that place. It's the place like, where are you, where else are you going to go to find it.
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A
Yeah. Like the questions like origin, meaning, purpose and destiny, they're all answered right here.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And part of the reason our world's so screwed up is because, I don't know, 100 years ago in our country, we just pulled the rug out from under all of those. I mean, I've said it before. You tell an entire generation that you're nothing but a cosmic accident, that it went from goo to zoo to you. And then you wonder why you have a purposeless generation that is lost. Well, you told them there was no purpose to their life. There was no origin story. There was no reason for them to be here.
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B
You told him that you were just an animal. So people act like.
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A
People act like it.
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B
Well, you you talked about this song. That's that he goes into in verse.
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A
Don't you love it?
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B
16. And, and there's this, there's this thing in like church history called the mystery of faith. You know, have you heard of this? It's like this, it's like an early creed statement. It's Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again. It's. It's like this thing that was often recited and said again. So I've heard this described as a song and as like an early creed. But I want to ask this question because he says, great, we confess is the mystery of godliness. And then he gives these very clear statements which you unpacked so well. So how do you, how do you hold this tension about mystery and clarity? So this is like a statement about the gospel. And then he also says, but it's also a mystery. So it's two rows of ditch maybe on two sides of the road. If you go too far, mystery. Like I can't know. Or if you go too far and there's no mystery.
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A
Yeah. The mystery is that a holy God would even want wretched people. This is how. And the why is for God's glory, because he wants to. But the mystery is that it would even be a possibility.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I think this doxology and I totally made this up, but I like it. So whatever humble confidence, it's personal, supernatural, eternal, global, practical and final.
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B
I love that.
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A
I mean, you think about what the gospel is. It's personal. This is not just a theology, theological reality that you have to ascribe to he being Jesus manifested in the flesh. I mean, how more personal that God became a person. Yeah, it's supernatural, vindicated by the Spirit. What that means is that Jesus did not attest to himself alone, but the, the Spirit of God and the Father speaking over him, attested to him. This thing is supernatural, seen by the angels. This is eternal. Like they get to see it. They saw him before he ever showed up. They've seen the second person of the Trinity since they were created. And you know, get a bird's eye view on this proclaimed among the nations. This isn't just for the Jews, man, or just for the church people right now. This is a global. The gospel's global. This part gets me. It's so practical. It's believed on in the world. Like later he says that, you know, physical training is of some value, but this gospel is of eternal value. Not just when you die, but even right now. This thing is very practical and final. Like Jesus says it is finished and he's in glory. But then Paul says in Colossians, though, but there's the unfinished work of the church is to take the finished work of Christ to all the people. And so again, I would say it's personal, supernatural, eternal, global, practical and final.
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C
Do you think he's saying the mystery side of it? Do you think he's just saying in a different way or he's talking about maybe a different facet? Because, you know, in Ephesians 3 he says the mystery is that Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the Gospel.
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A
I think this part is the godliness part. I mean, dude, think about this. Like, if you weren't. If you weren't like, immersed. Timothy uses, Paul uses godliness eight times. So you start kind of getting a good idea of what he's talking about as you read through 1 Timothy. But imagine if you're just out of context. I looked at you and said, like, you are godly. You'd be like, hold on. You know, your human breaks would come up and be like, hold on, man, I'm a sinner. I got a lot wrong. You know, that's kind of. I mean, this idea that for those whom he foreknew, he predestined that he called into the. To be conformed to the image and likeness of his Son. That'd be another definition of godliness, but from Romans 8. And you'd be like, how in the heck. And Paul goes, but I know it's a mystery. Like, that's crazy, man.
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C
It is crazy. And I was thinking. Yeah, I was thinking about it tonight. When you're preaching that the, There's a, the fundamental, A fundamental misconception that you run, regularly run into is that Christianity is positional. It's a positional reality, right? And so one of the phrases that Paul uses all over the, the New Testament. Excuse me, all over the New Testament is in Christ. In Christ. In Christ. In Christ.
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A
I think it's 261 times or something like that.
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C
It is the definition of what it means to have experienced this mysterious, supernatural overthrowing of the Holy Spirit of God that we call salvation and have all kinds of words to explain it. But your position has now completely changed. And so the word Christian was used, what, two, maybe three times?
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A
And two, one, at least we're in negative.
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C
I heard somebody preach on this. Sam Albery maybe preached on this, but talking about the positional reality. And so if you think about It. In terms of like a plane. The. The. The analogy is, you know, what good is it for you to be under the plane? What good is it for you to be beside the plane? Like, standing in the window looking at the plane, going, hey, plane. What good would it be for you to be behind the plane? No, in order to get where you're trying to go, you have to be inside it.
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A
That's good.
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C
And to the First Corinthians thing about the body of Christ, that these are different images that provoke in our minds the right thinking about our positional reality in Christ. And this positional reality is something we can get our heads around, inspired by the Holy Spirit. But there is a part of it that is just a mystery, that somehow Christ is the head and I am the body. I am a part of the body, and we are eternally connected forever and ever and ever. And I am cosmically placed in him as he holds all things together, including my entire destiny. It's a pretty wild. So you believe it and you know it, and it's true, but yet there's this mystery side to it of, like, how can this be true in the sense of, how could you save a sinner like me? And how could this actually be true? Like, how did this actually happen?
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A
This is why I find myself leaning into the big glory of God preachers, because they point to this mystery more than anybody. You don't get a lot of tips and tricks on a better version of you. You get a whole bunch of preaching about the mystery of godliness because of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And, you know, it's like the diamond thing with the light, and you just keep turning that thing around and it refracts in different ways, and you're like, man, I don't think I'm gonna ever get tired of looking at this.
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B
It's almost like you could use the word wondrous instead of mist or like, awesome, like, in the right way of using the word awesome.
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A
Like, the lowest slang would just be crazy.
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B
Yeah. Yeah.
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A
This is crazy. Yeah. For sure. God would call us into godliness.
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B
Yeah. So it's not like, mystery like a mystery story. Like, I wonder what it's all about. Like, even though there is that. That sense to it, he also talks about mystery as something that was hidden at it at a time which is now revealed. Like the Gentiles thing. It's like it was not as obvious for a certain period of time of history, and now it is revealed, and it's like the mystery is now solved.
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A
Yep.
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B
Yeah. And Pastor Joby, you talked about how he then almost checks himself and says, but here's another warning as he gets into chapter four. And so what does he mean by later times? Does it mean the time that he was writing or sometime after or what? What does that phrase tell us?
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A
Sometimes it'll make a. I mean, I think he means particular to the church in Ephesus, you know.
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B
Okay, yeah.
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A
And these are not necessarily the last. There's a bunch of words that get thrown around in the New Testament that especially people obsessed with the end times get. You know, so we are in later times or the last days from the moment that Jesus ascended to the moment he returns. This is like the final era of the church until his return. Okay, the church age. But yeah, but then there are like the end of the days, which will be the days right up to when Christ returns. But I think not specifically to this church. There's going to be times where wolves rise up from among you. But I also think this is a warning for all churches. Just pay attention at your church. Because people take their eyes off Jesus and they get focused on all kinds of anything that leads them away from Jesus. And all of those things are demonic, which, I mean, you don't talk about strong language. We're not just talking about theological disagreements. We're talking about Christianity and a demonic religion.
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B
Yeah. And he specifically points out as examples marriage, like you forbid marriage and then the eating of certain foods.
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A
Yes. There was a group of people in Ephesus known as the Essenes, and they were living an aesthetic life. An aesthetic life. And that was basically, it was like, all pleasure is bad and kind of sacrifice and pain is good. There was also a little bit of this kind of like all things physical were evil and all things good had to be spiritual. And it's what theologians would call an over realized eschatology. Like, we're not going to be married in heaven, therefore you shouldn't be married on earth. And Paul's like, what are you doing? What are you doing? And practically speaking, it was just an extreme form of legalism. And those two things were the things they were getting legalistic about. And then they did take a thing that Paul did say, like, hey man, if you're just taking my advice on this and you're single, just stay single so you can just serve all day every day at church. But then Paul says in First Corinthians, but this is just my own personal opinion. And then some people tried to apply that as salvific and that that is what Legalism is like let me help God get you saved by you doing some things.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And then. But Paul says that's demonic. It's not just like a oops, misreading. That is demonic because what the devil does not want you to believe in is grace. And any works based righteousness is void of grace.
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B
It's, it's very, it's very convincing because he says that they, you're led away by this, these liars. Right. And so that's a warning against like if you just like to listen to people who are very passionate and convincing, it's not enough. They gotta actually be saying the truth. And you talk a lot about the prosperity gospel. That is a heresy. It's a, it's an abuse of this idea of grace. But the opposite is this poverty mindset. And verse four of chapter four is, is a corrective to that which I think you, you live out really well. So how does that verse correct us from this thing, this idea that's still very active today, that it's somehow more holy to not have fun or not have good things?
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A
Yeah. James says every good and perfect gift comes from above. And so when you, when you begin to see the good gifts of God, I mean like air condition or a nice house or a healthy family, these are all good gifts from God. The, the prosperity gospel is, is that you use God to get those gifts. The actual gospel is those gifts are to motivate you to worship God more, but that your worship does not terminate on the gift, it flows up to the giver of the gift. I mean Jesus uses 189 times, he calls God father. He wants us to know he's a good dad. And what dad among you? If you evil, wicked, lazy dad can give good gifts to your kid, how much more does the father want to give to you? Now again, listen, as dads, you know, you want to like, you don't want your kid to be spoiled, but you want to spoil your kid. Well that's, yeah, that could be said of. The Lord wants to lavish good gifts like grace and love and great relationships and all that kind of stuff on you. But if that begins to sour you, then he wouldn't be a good father to give you more of the thing that is driving a wedge between you and him. Because ultimately the good gift of God is God.
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B
Yeah. How do you, how do you know where that line is for you? Because when you think about something that's nice or a good, a good thing in your life, it's, it's always relative. Like, there's somebody who's living with a crappier car and is happy, and there's somebody who's living with a nicer car and thinks it's not very nice. You know what I mean? Like, so how do you find that line, especially as Americans, right? Like, you can look around the world and say, we have freaking amazing stuff, right? So, so. So where's that line? How do you know how to live that out without taking it too far?
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C
I've learned a lot from Pastor Joby on it, but I don't know that I'm. I don't know that I've got it figured out by any means. I think I would have. I would have lived for many years in the. You shouldn't have nice things, you shouldn't enjoy things, you know, and be hard on yourself. Pastor Walker used to make fun of me. He's like, I think you go home and just whip yourself with chains. You know what I mean? And he wasn't all that. He wasn't all that wrong, you know, Never got that far. But I was very much into kind of like the. On the wrong side of this for sure. I think for me, the only way I know how to navigate it is anything I have on that I have an instinct or a nudge from the Lord that I would have a temptation to. For that thing to terminate on itself or for me to do that for selfish gain. Ult honestly, I just put it in his hands or I'll put it in the A team that we work with hands. I'll just be like, hey, this opportunity's come my way. Or this, you know, even talking about, I mean, two or three cars that I've bought for at my house before I buy them. I talk to you about it. And I just. I just try to put anything in somebody else's hands that I trust and respect and that are my authority in life and go. That's how I try to navigate it is with godly counsel. So I don't know if that helps, but that's just how I know how.
- [25:38]
B
To navigate, you know, a person like that, though, who's like, oh, I don't want to buy the nicer popcorn at Walmart because it's gonna send the extra 3 cents to missions. And you're just like, I mean, they're not fun to be around for.
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A
On if I'm on for sure, I'm.
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C
Not that person, but I am the, like, hard to receive a blessing.
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A
And.
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C
And also, I don't know. I. I'm A head case when it.
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B
Comes to that stuff.
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A
The first step for those listening is super simple. If you're not bringing God your first and best, your for at least your first 10% and then not just determining what you should bring God by rationality, but revelation, Lord, what are you asking me to bring? Then you are stealing from God. And you should feel conviction about a joy and a bunch of stuff of this world when you're not trusting God with your first and best. The other side of that too is, hey, man, walk in a little bit of freedom. If you know you're bringing your first and best, then your first instinct does not need to be like, oh, can I not enjoy this golf membership if I really love golf? Because, you know, God has provided me this opportunity to play golf and enjoy it, man. Like, there is so much freedom in obedience. If you just walk in the obedience first.
- [26:43]
B
Right.
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A
Then it's for. Then the next step is what Pastor Brett's talking about. It's a really good idea to have some other folks that love you enough. They can just look into your life and say, I don't know if you should do that or that, you know, so, you know, we actually have processes in place here for pastors and staff folks in regards to things like receiving gifts or opportunities and stuff, just so that we've got other people's eyes on it to help each other out. Because we, you know, we want to just. We want to be above approach when it comes to that.
- [27:12]
B
It gets you out of your own head for sure. With other people will.
- [27:16]
A
Yeah.
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B
Help you. I love that he says, you know, he talked about the mystery of godliness, but then he says a little bit later, train yourself for godliness. So he says a bodily training has some value, which he could have said no value, but it's not true.
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A
It has some.
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B
So go work out some.
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A
Yeah, you need to be a good steward of your body.
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B
But how, how do you train yourself for godliness? Like, when I think of godliness, I think it almost like it's something God does. Right. Like because God is making you like him. And then maybe that goes into the thing you said about efforts.
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A
Go to second Timothy. I think that he does farmer, athlete and soldier.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And it's a boat. It's a, it's. It's a combo all the time. Like God's not just gonna grow corn for you, but you can't grow corn without the miracle of seeds turning into corn. So the farmer works his tail off and then God makes it rain.
- [28:13]
B
Yeah.
- [28:13]
A
So that That's. That's sanctification. You're never going to. If you just sit around in your butt waiting on God to make you godly, you. You'll never be godly. God is God of action. God calls us to be, like, warriors and farmers and athletes, you know, and so training matters. That's what he's saying. And godliness. You're never going to just be in this relentless pursuit of comfort and convenience and be godly. It doesn't work that way. You have to train. Just, like, you're never gonna, like, make the easy, convenient choice every time and look at. See if your body's fit. It won't be. It'll be fat. Everything is leaning towards right fatness, not fitness. You got to train. You got to, like, go the other way. And so he's using that as an example, I think.
- [28:58]
B
Yeah. I think Carrie Groel says that comforting growth cannot coexist.
- [29:04]
A
He does. Dude, I just had breakfast with that cat last week for like, an hour and a half. I just want to give a shout out to Craig Rochelle. So what a. He was so humble, so helpful, so encouraging. I mean, dude, it also reminded me, man. So you take people like Craig Gerstel, man, there's a lot of people that just want to bash everything he's doing. I'd be really, really careful. There's a whole industry of church bashing out there. And I'm telling you. I mean, I mentioned it briefly. You. You talk about all the time. One of the primary terms used for the church is the bride of Christ. If you told me, Vinki, we were friends, and you talked about my bride the way people talk about Jesus's bride. Me and you ain't gonna be friends. Now, the church is certainly not perfect, but she's clean by Jesus, and you better love her and be for her. And there's. Now Paul gives a lot of instruction to make sure the church is, you know, rightly ordered. So that's fine. You know, if people have had a bad experience here and they want to let us know so that we can help everybody have a better experience under the glory of God. Praise God for that. We're wide open. That. Bro, if you. If somebody's just doing a version of church that you don't love the flavor of it, and you think that they're the target of your scrutiny. I mean, again, imagine if I was just. If. If I just came after your wife all the time with negativity and yet thought me and you were friends. It don't go that way, bro, for sure. And then here's the other thing that I found multiple times now. I'm talking about, you know, people that believe in Jesus and believe in the authority of the word of God. So there are some things in buildings with crosses that aren't churches anymore because they have swerved into the lies of the demonic. Okay. Every one of these folks that I've met, man, that I've heard all this criticism about their church, and then just because of the nature of what I do and they do, and we have big churches, we're in places. They're just some of the most godly people I've ever met. And I'm like, wow, all of these things I've heard about you aren't true. Wow, you. They never. Here's the thing. I'm. A couple weeks ago last week, I was with, I don't know, a bunch of pastors of all the biggest churches. Nobody's ever talking about how big their church is. All they're talking about is individual stories of people that have come to Christ, that have moved their heart, and they're just overwhelmed with what God is doing with a bunch of rejects like us. That's. That is. That has been the normative experience that I have had with the pastors that I've gotten to know. So. You mentioned Craig Garcelle. Dude, I mean, what a champion.
- [31:40]
B
I've learned so much from that guy. So.
- [31:43]
A
And he does things. If you went to Life Church and then you came 11:22, you would see many, many, many kind of. I mean, some. Some stylistic differences. But, dude, we preached the Bible. He loved Jesus. Pointing people to the cross. He's serious about people coming to Christ, man.
- [32:00]
C
Very.
- [32:01]
B
Bro.
- [32:02]
A
You.
- [32:02]
B
You pointed out that one of the things that's. So there's an analogy that she said, like your godliness training and your physical training, you can. You can think of them almost like similar analogies.
- [32:13]
A
Right.
- [32:13]
B
And you said one of the things is you don't get results quick sometimes. Right? What. What other things can you think of that, you know, are helpful? Helpful comparisons there.
- [32:23]
A
Everything that matters, like school. I mean, you learn a little bit every day, but it's not like. I mean, you don't get. You don't get a degree overnight. Takes a long time.
- [32:32]
B
Yeah.
- [32:32]
A
Experience in anything takes a long time. Becoming proficient at any, like, a sport or, you know, there's not like a golf lesson. You're like, oh, sweet, now I can break 80. Oh, dude, it takes a long time.
- [32:44]
C
Tell me about it.
- [32:44]
A
Sanctification takes A long time.
- [32:47]
C
Yeah. Instant gratification. Instant gratification has to. To be a demonic lie. The idea of instant gratification has got to be a part of the. The enemy's strategy. And now we're so addicted to it, you know, we're just so addicted to instant gratification. But there's really no such thing there. There's like instant passive, you know, but it's not real. You're not really. It's not gratifying to your life. It's not gratifying to your purpose. It's not gratifying to your significance. It's like a momentary relief.
- [33:21]
A
Yeah.
- [33:21]
C
And we call that grat, and it's just not that. And so nothing hard thing. Do hard things over and over and over and over again. I'm preaching to the choir, but do hard things, you know, and that's training yourself for godliness. And I'm sure in the gym there are two words that equal this. But what pastor Joby talked about in the sermon was vivify and mortify. This is how you grow in godliness, is you vivify and you mortify, or you mortify and you vivify whichever order you want to put them in. At the end of the day, you're never going to walk in the freedom and in the joy of the Lord when you are allowing for that besetting sin to enslave you. Because it's enslaving your conscience. Like, yes, you may be free in Christ in the eternal, but your conscience is a slave to that sin. The more room you give that sin to wiggle, right? And so you think about demonic lies. You think about the number of people who are struggling through porn addiction. And it's all in the secret. Just ask a straight up question is how much time does your conscience spend slave to the shame of that sin? Inordinate amount of time. There's no way for you to truly enjoy life when your conscience is a slave to sin. So you have to do the hard thing of whatever it is. Throw your phone in the ocean. If you have to do it, don't do it. You do the hard thing to mortify.
- [34:48]
A
There's only one step. Worse is when your conscience gets seared because God turns you over to the hardened heart of which you have been callousing your heart for so long. And then you're living in that habitual sin without even the conviction anymore. Bro, you're. You're. You're in a. You're in a spiritual kind of living hell, right? That Is just terrible. All right. The other side of that. So the. The words in the gym, man. But it's sort of like mortification is your diet and vivification is working out. You can never outwork your. The table. You cannot go to enough church services to kill the sin in your life. But if all you ever do is kill the sin and you don't go to church services to stir your heart for the Lord, that's like eating good. You don't ever work out. You're going to be kind of skinny fat, where you just. You got to. You got to go build some muscle too. Like, there's so many correlations there, man. An incredible experience testimony tonight. People say nice things to me about standing in the hallway to say hey to everybody. I'm the blessed one. Every single time. You know what I mean? So anyway, this lady comes up. She's like, we talked two years ago and the team around here has been so good. And she starts naming names. Goshot and a few other people. She's in her disciple group. This lady came full of sin and shame about abortion from. She's at least my age, so it's probably 30 years ago, and she just wrecked with it. She just wanted to come up to me tonight and she. She just started repeating some verses that she had memorized. And she is just walking in the freedom of the forgiveness of Christ and the shame of that is not over her head anymore.
- [36:19]
C
Amen.
- [36:19]
A
And dude, you could just see in her. Her face, you know, and the Lord helped me. I don't have a good memory, but I. I remember her because what she did is she filled it out on a card and then I called her. It was a prayer card. It's like, God can never forgive me because, you know, and the language she used because I murdered my baby 30 years ago. So I called her, that girl on the phone girl, she's probably 55 or something. I called her on the phone. Let's talk about the gospel just a little bit. And today, man. So what she did is she did not live in that besetting sin and keep it a secret. I mean, of all the people, she wrote it on a card. She didn't even know who's going to read it, right? But she's confessing. She's like, I'm going to drag this sin into this old one, man. And the current, you know, condemnation that the enemy continues to pile on her. I'm going to drag it out in here to the light of the gospel and I'm going to Try to believe all that stuff you're saying up there about Christ has forgiven you for real. And, dude, you could see. You ever see somebody free in their face? And then I asked her, I was like, listen, I need. I need some help. She's like. I said, sometimes people come and confess these kind of things, and they can't even imagine what freedom might look like. Would you be willing to share your story with people? Because if they can see it in you, they may be able to believe it for them. This is what Paul means when he says, in Corinthians, God's going to use some pain that you went through to help some other people walk in freedom. And this is also what the Bible means. Like in Romans 8:28, the God's at work in all things, like even your own sin for the good of those that love him. And this is kind of like in. In Genesis, when what the enemy intended for evil, God intended for good. And so God's going to use that for his own glory. But that's the kind of stuff you're talking about, man. Yeah, this is a lady that drugs himself out into the light.
- [38:09]
C
There's a. There's a guy who writes articles, and it's called the. I think they're called the Glob Drop articles. Have you ever read this? The Glob Drop.
- [38:18]
A
It.
- [38:18]
C
It's like. It's like his. It's like his spin on Screwtape letters.
- [38:23]
A
Okay.
- [38:24]
C
Oh, and so Glob Drop is a character, and it actually may be from the Screwtape letters. I'm just kind of.
- [38:29]
B
I'm.
- [38:30]
C
I'm trying to piece it together in my mind as you're talking. But one of his. One of the narratives that he writes in these articles is he talks about the power of sin and the demonic lies. He talks about the lies and ultimately the. The lie around sin is that if you keep it invisible, you should keep it invisible. And you should keep it invisible because it's ultimately insignificant.
- [38:56]
A
Yeah.
- [38:57]
C
And if you believe that, you should keep it invisible because it's ultimately insignificant. What the enemy knows is that he's going to render you impotent. And so you're just going to be completely powerless in this life. You're just going to have no power. And what worse way is there to be than to be powerless? And ultimately, if you're powerless, you're dying. That's what you were dying from the inside out. And as you were just talking, I was just thinking about that article, and I thought that's a really Interesting connection that he wants us to keep things invisible. That's John 3. He doesn't want us to bring into the light. And the way we keep it invisible is he thinks. You know, we just start thinking, well, it's not that significant. It's not that big a deal. It's not that big a deal. It's not that big a deal. Or it's just my deal, and I don't want to burden other people with it, you know, and if you. If you let sin stay in an insignificant category, pretty soon you're going to be impotent spiritually, meaning you just have no power and no authority.
- [40:00]
A
And, you know, I have one of.
- [40:03]
B
Those lessons where you're teaching your kids something and then you end up being like, oh, God, you're teaching me a lesson about me. You know, I don't really think I'm a perfectionist, but both my kids have this thing where if they're not amazing at something, right away, they're just like this, I should never do it. This is terrible. Like, I should not even try. And I'm, like, trying to explain to him, you're gonna be bad at it at first.
- [40:26]
A
Yeah.
- [40:26]
B
And. And then you'll get a little bit better and a little bit better, and you just gotta, like, stay at it and stay at it. And then it was just like, crap. That's how you talk about instant gratification. And that take training, and it takes hard work. I mean, we don't have. We don't have the patience with ourselves that God has with us. Talk about grace. I mean, he. He's patient with us as we're growing. And we're not. We're thinking, man, if I don't have this figured out on day three, then I might as well quit. That's the work of the enemy. That's demonic.
- [40:55]
C
Well, one of my favorite books is Steven Pressfield's War of Art. It was actually a copy of it around here somewhere a minute ago. But he's not a Christian, but he wrote, like, Gates of Fire, which is one of the books that the movie 300 was based on. And great writer. And in this book called the War of Art, he's talking about creating art and bringing ideas into reality. And so he's a writer. But one of the things that he talks about is the hardest part is just putting your butt in the chair over and over again. The hardest part of writing is just put your butt in the seat. He uses way different words because he's not a Christian. But what he calls this thing between. He calls it the resistance. The whole book is a book on spiritual warfare. He just doesn't know the words. And he says, there is a resistance at work against me that is constantly trying to get me to do anything except that which is meaningful. And he takes it to a massive extreme. And he uses Hitler as an example. And he says that Hitler went to school to be an artist and to paint pictures, and he wanted to be like a Rembrandt, like a legit artist. And Pressfield makes the statement in the book that's daunting. But he says, he goes, hitler found it harder to stare at a blank canvas and create something meaningful than he did to start world wars.
- [42:23]
A
Well.
- [42:26]
C
And ultimately his argument is what he gave into was the resistance. He wanted instant gratification, and it was easier for him to get over here than it was over here. And so he went for it. And now there's a whole bunch in there that. But that said, that idea is legit. Anything meaningful takes dedication, commitment, and you have to put your butt in the chair over and over and over.
- [42:49]
A
Well, let me ask you this. What is easier, man, to help, like, start a church or just start a blog critical of churches?
- [42:57]
C
For sure.
- [42:57]
A
I mean, dude, it's so easy to tear down. It's really hard to be a part of building a thing, knowing that you're imperfect. I mean, you know, but you can. If you are the. If you were a serial cynic, you're gonna be right so many times if you just disagree with everything, always, you know how often you're gonna be right. You can be like, see, I told you. But those people never build anything for human flourishing or good or godliness. They just tear down.
- [43:29]
B
Is it easier to tear apart a kitchen or to be a really good tiling?
- [43:33]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [43:33]
B
You know what I mean? Like, totally it. And one of the things later in this chapter is my favorite phrases, maybe in the whole New Testament, so that all will see your progress. He's saying you don't have to be perfect, and everybody else should see you grow, and you're their leader. I thought you exemplified. You exemplify this amazing all the time by your authenticity. But he's saying it's like a stab in the heart to the fear of man. Like this whole leadership thing that. That there's a school of thought that's like, you got to appear perfect, you got to appear above.
- [44:09]
A
I was taught that in seminary.
- [44:10]
B
Exactly right.
- [44:11]
A
The mystique.
- [44:13]
C
That's somebody about that.
- [44:14]
B
That's the word I was looking for mystique.
- [44:16]
A
I mean, literally, my professor said, don't live in the town that you pastor. And, you know.
- [44:21]
C
What are you talking about?
- [44:22]
B
Yeah.
- [44:23]
A
Oh, they had a whole thing like, a shepherd's not a sheep. Those are two different things, right?
- [44:28]
B
Yeah.
- [44:28]
A
I mean, I was like, that sounds miserable.
- [44:29]
B
Am I?
- [44:31]
A
No wonder you got all these secret lives.
- [44:34]
B
I was talking to somebody about you, actually. And that's funny.
- [44:37]
C
I thought about you when we were thinking talking about that earlier.
- [44:39]
B
But, well, and. And. And they're like, man, I don't know. I don't know Brit very well, but he just seems so humble. I was like, it. It has been amazing to watch what God's done in his life over the past few years. I mean, we've known each other a long a while. And it's undeniable what God has done in your life. It's like, you can't deny it and God's done it, but you've been, like, submitted to the process, and it's exactly this, so the people could see your progress. And I just love that because you don't have to be perfect. And God's. God's working on all of us.
- [45:13]
C
Amen. Thank you.
- [45:15]
A
I mean, the idea that. Paul, that last line, you know, the way I say it is, you have no idea what hangs in the balance. No idea what hangs in the balance. You know, what people don't think about, man, is like, you get saved, and you, like the lives of your great grandchildren that you may never meet could be radically different, because now you train yourself for godliness instead of chasing after the temporary things of this world, like their family lives could be completely different because your grandchildren are raised in the church, and they do. They start off with a moral compass that is about the glory of God and human flourishing. And these kind of things change everything. Coach Lee. I ended the sermon talking about Coach Lee. That guy had no idea what hung in the balance when he said yes to run a camp. You know, all these people here that have met Christ, you begin. You can trace it all back to Pastor Jerry allowing me to, you know, hiring me to work at a. To work at his church. Had no idea he was being faithful to say yes to God. And that is true for every single person. All of us. We have no idea. I don't know how it's going to work. This is total speculation. But, you know, there's some verses in Corinthians talking about how God is working all things together for our glory. You can't take that too far. And then you get some verses about, like, jewels in the crowns, you know? And then you get some verses about laying crowns at Jesus feet. Okay, so you put this, all this stuff together. Well, heck, the only thing you can take to heaven is people. What greater glory could there be? I mean, just imagine, maybe it works this way, that now we know in part. Then we will know fully and be fully known. And what if God allows you to see? Every time you planted a seed, but you didn't see the harvest, and then one day that thing harvested and God's like, look at how I used you to bring all these people. Like you were a part of a church that planted a thousand churches in 10 years. Here are the nations that are here now. Because you were generous way back there. Remember that time you sold that thing to give that thing? And this is what I use that thing for. And I want you to meet this tribe. This. You know what I'm saying? What else you gonna get with golden streets? Who cares about golden streets? You got plenty of food. Who cares? You know what I'm saying? There's not like a. There's no earthly thing. So imagine that's your crown in heaven. Like, where did I say yes to God? And he used my little cruddy yes, just like the kid with the fish and the loaves and he did miracles. And then you are like, almost crowned in glory, right, Because God used you until his great commission. And then you, like, go to the feet of Jesus and be like, exactly.
- [48:01]
B
Yeah.
- [48:01]
A
That was for you. That's way better than singing a song.
- [48:05]
B
Right?
- [48:07]
A
There's something to all that.
- [48:08]
B
Is it fair to say it this way? That part of the joy of heaven will be like the celebration of all the uplines of evangelism, Right? It's like, yeah, the links in the chain that. Most of which we don't know.
- [48:21]
A
Right? It's like the. The biggest holy pyramid scheme of all time. It's just all in the glory of God.
- [48:27]
B
Right, Exactly.
- [48:27]
A
You know what I mean? Totally.
- [48:28]
C
Sure.
- [48:30]
B
And. And we can. We can end with this. But you pointed this out. I. I'd never seen this before. The verse 14 of chapter 4. I always read, don't neglect the gift you have, which was given to you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. And there's probably part of this that's true, but I saw it mainly as like this supernatural, like, whoa, thing that. You know what I mean? But when you said prophecy, it was given you by prophecy during this time of prayer. It was like it came out to me, much more like the encouragement and truth telling of these people.
- [49:06]
A
Prophecy doesn't just mean predicting the future. It just means saying things that are true in alignment with the character nature of God. We need more of that in the church. The way it. You boil it down to Bennettsville, South Carolina, and whatever year it was, when Coach Lee says, hey, man, I see something in you.
- [49:22]
B
Right?
- [49:22]
A
That's prophecy.
- [49:23]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [49:25]
C
I mean, to comment and expound the truth, I think, is actually what it means.
- [49:29]
A
Yeah.
- [49:30]
C
To comment on and expound the truth.
- [49:32]
A
I try really hard to do that. I mean, like, with y', all, if you run around with me long enough in ministry, I'm. I'm trying. When I see God doing stuff in people, I try to, like, put words on it, into it, you know?
- [49:49]
B
Yeah.
- [49:49]
A
Because it's been done to me.
- [49:50]
B
Right.
- [49:51]
A
Pastor Jerry did it, Bill Ross did it. Coach Lee did it. Like, these guys just spoke life. They said things. I was like, what? We'll put that in the prophecy category. So I think it's probably more like God had already implanted in Timothy. I mean, this is why he's going to say in second Timothy, fan the flame. So, like, you can't start the spark, but, you know, the rest of us can, like, fan the flame. I mean, both of you guys have some really, really gifts given to you by God. And a part of my job, our job as brothers in this thing, is to, like. Because the enemy's lying to you. You know, Brit, you're one of the smartest church guys I've ever been around in my life. And you can kind of get in your own way because you're not you. You're trying to not be rude and not, you know, all that kind of stuff. And so sometimes I prophesy via text in a meeting, I'm like, don't stop. Keep going. Like, you're on it. Trust your instincts. That's this kind of stuff, right? Same thing with you, Vinky. You know, you're in charge of a lot of people, man. A lot of very. Everything y' all see on the weekends, then he's responsible for it. And, boy, it's like herding butterflies, you know, all the worship leaders and all the feelings and all the things, man, and you can get all in your head, man. And the enemy is trying to dampen that. Like, who do you think you are in that role? Well, bro, we. God put me in my role to put him in his role, to put you in your role. So if you don't trust you, no Problem, trust God. And a part of our job is to. I mean, you said it last week. Encourage means to put courage in because the enemy doesn't want you to have courage. Enemy wants you to have fear. And the opposite of fear is courage. You know, the thing to fight fear is courage. And you just move forward even though you don't have it all figured out or even feel it. Right. It's going to keep coming up in Timothy's life. Yeah. And so. And. And the reason I use Coach Lee as an example is because everybody is literally sitting in to prophetic truth of what God did in that man's life when he said yes to lead a camp.
- [52:01]
C
Amen.
- [52:02]
A
And you're like, I'm sitting in chair. If you drop a whatever. Like a third grader off. Your classroom is the coach bully classroom. You know what I mean? So you're sitting in the truth of a man a long time ago that you've never met that just said yes to the Lord, so why not you?
- [52:19]
B
Right?
- [52:20]
A
And he don't even know. See, Coach Lee didn't even get to see it all. And there's about 20 of us that are in ministry that are all pastoring churches and stuff. We're just one of them.
- [52:29]
B
Yeah. It's so motivating, too. Like, you think about. I think sometimes about encouragement, like prayer. Like you talked about. Like, why am I. Why don't I pray more? Or am I passive in it? When I hear stuff like this, I'm like, I am leaving stuff on the table for people by not encouraging them. It's like you said about. I thought maybe I was sinning by not encouraging Pastor Adam. You know what I mean? It's like, I want to be better at that. Because think about the power that it has. Like, he's saying, this is part of the gift that's in you because things were said to you that, you know, probably by him and others. We didn't hold it back.
- [53:01]
A
Yeah. And you never know, man. See, here's what you don't know. You don't know what that other person is going through. You don't know. Brett, you talk about this really good, like, the power and mystery of prayer. Like, what you don't know is the nudge that you have to say. The thing to the person is not the spirit of God answering this prayer, as they're in spiritual warfare against the lies of the enemy. And they're like, lord, I need whatever words they use. I don't know if I believe I'm in the right spot. And then you say to the person at just the right time, Amen. I see what God's doing and you keep it up. You just don't know the power of your words.
- [53:37]
B
Amen.
- [53:38]
A
And one, let me just say this because I hear this all the time when everybody starts their thing with, hey man, I don't want to give you a big head. Shut up. Nowhere in the Bible can I find that it's any person's job to keep another person humble.
- [53:51]
C
Amen.
- [53:52]
A
It's your job to encourage that. Humility is between you and Christ, and the spirit of God will humble you. I mean, you should read Philippians 2 every day of your life and humble yourself like Christ does. But it is not my job to discourage you for the sake of humility. We have an accuser of the brethren and you don't need. The devil does not need an advocate. Jesus is an advocate for us to speak life into us and over us.
- [54:19]
B
Amen. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
- [54:23]
A
Let's go.
- [54:24]
B
So close us out. Pastor J.
- [54:26]
A
Let's pray. How about that? Our good and gracious Heavenly Father, Lord, I thank you that what we are doing is not new. It's just our turn. And we all stand on the shoulders of faithful men and women that said yes to you a long time ago. And God, may we just be. And by we, I don't mean just the three of us here, I mean the all. Every person listening, like in their car on the way to work or working out or walking around the house, whatever they're doing. May we just be another faithful link in the chain of what you are doing. For your glory to the ends of the earth. We pray in Jesus name. Thank you for listening to the podcast. The End you nails it.