← Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin
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- [00:01]
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Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ.
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And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him.
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Now let's dive in.
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All right, well, welcome back. Hello, pastors.
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What's up?
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Hello. Season three of Matthew, and we are barreling towards Holy Week, barreling towards Easter, and Pastor Joby, this was quite a word, fear over faith. I want to start by, you know, these headings. You've pointed out many times. These headings over the sections in your Bible, they're not part of the text. They're added by the translators. Right. And the one says, you know, in verse 18, it says the cost of following Jesus. And so when that scribe comes to Jesus and asks that question, why would you choose to put that as the heading? I mean, like, what's his answer? Tell us about that.
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Well, Jesus, he doesn't do the seeker sensitive thing very well. You know, he doesn't give him all the short, easy steps of, you know, he doesn't say, oh, you want to follow me?
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C
Well, good.
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Well, I've got a class for you. And it doesn't take that long and it's not going to be very inconvenient. He doesn't. He just said, all right, it's going to cost you everything. And I'm homeless. I got nothing. That's it. No recruiting. He just lays it out there. The next one's worse. Yeah,
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C
I think I've read that. I mean, I don't know if you know this, but when he says, I need to bury my father, does it mean wait till he dies?
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Or maybe I think that's what the commentators are trying to do because they're trying to soften what Jesus is saying. I mean, every commentary I read was making excuses for Jesus to not make it sound so harsh.
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C
Right.
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And I don't think that's what it is. I'd be very careful about trying to tone down the words of Jesus.
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Yeah.
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I think it's just simply but first. If you've got a but first in your life, then Jesus is not first.
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I mean, he doesn't hold back with the scribe at all. I mean, this is Jesus. If we, you know, we see the title Son of Man. So it's just Daniel 7. So he's. So we're being told here that the one who rides on the clouds now doesn't have a place to lay his head. And so he says, this is what it's Going to cost you. Like, if you're coming to me and hoping that it's going to make you famous, you're going to get a platform, you're going to do this, you're going to do this. It's going to be a soft landing. It's like, no, quite the opposite. And so it is. It's putting to test the call to follow Jesus. That it is. No, it is no easy thing. It is no simple thing. It is. No, it's like, this is going to cost you something. Even the word follow in the text is, is. It's both follow, but it's also behave like me. Come and behave like me. So. So the cost is high to follow Jesus.
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Now the reality is, is, is you give up your life and you get life. I mean, but that's not what he. He doesn't. He doesn't talk about heaven, doesn't talk about eternity, doesn't talk about forgiveness. He just says, yeah, it's going to cost you everything. Especially the scribe. The scribe should know better. He has. He's a professional Bible person.
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C
When you're preaching. I thought about that great prophet of our time, Kenny Chesney, who said, everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to go now.
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B
Wow.
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C
You know the but first. I think there's two versions of the but first, like, and you mentioned them, clean up my act first and then I'll come to God. And that's maybe one version of it. And then the other version is, let me get some stuff out of the way first. And yeah, to your point, it's like, that's not how it works.
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Yeah. Jesus is, you know, he's the shepherd. He we the sheep. Don't direct the shepherd. If you want to be his follower, then you follow him. And he is first. That's the thing. He doesn't do second. Like, he is preeminent. Just like he's not confused. Just like he's all powerful. Just like he's all knowing. He's never surprised. He doesn't do second. He is first.
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Yeah.
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And this guy was like, you're going to be second to what I need to do with my dad. I honestly think if the guy come, came to him and said, you are my Lord, help. I need your help here. My father has died. What do I do? Yeah, there's probably a different answer, you
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know, but I love that you said it that way because what it does is it. It communicates that I am aware of who Jesus is. And so we've culturally have created the scenario where it's like, if I get Jesus, it's like an add on to my life. And that's kind of what the scribe is doing here. And he's like, no, no, no, I'm not just a teacher. Like, it's no small thing that, you know, Son of man is there. Like, I think Jesus is really pointing to something. He's going, hey, I'm more than what you think. And it's, and this is a big deal, but culturally we, we don't do that. We're not, we're not in awe anymore. Especially how, you know, the, the sermon ended this week or tonight, it was like, we're not in awe of who Jesus is. And so we've lost that reverence. And so it's like, oh, well, if you, if, if on my schedule.
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Yeah, the guys in the boat are, I mean, that's why they, you know, they're like, whoa, who is this that even the wind and the waves obey him. Yeah, I mean, I do agree. We have, in our attempt to, even if it's a pure hearted attempt to try to help people, kind of ease their way into the church. I get all that. Acts 15. Why would we make it difficult for the Gentiles who are coming to the Lord? So you don't want to make it unnecessarily difficult and add things that Jesus doesn't add, but you cannot, you don't need to feather the hair of Jesus. He does not need a makeover to make him relevant to today.
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That's so good.
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He is Lord.
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And you've said often the thing that you need is need. And we live in a, we live in an affluent time, in an affluent country. And so sometimes it seems like when you're trying to tell someone about Christ, it's like, come to Christ. And they're like, well, why would I do that? You know, I'm not sure if other times or other places, it's more like an obvious choice that improves your life. But I do think, and I want to ask this question, you know, contemporary examples of a wrong motivation, someone coming to the Lord because they think they're going to get some kind of benefit. Like the scribe, because it seems from Jesus's answer, he's saying, this is not about what you're going to get out of it. Like some kind of big palace or some kind of, you know, so what, what would be some of those, you know, more familiar examples of somebody coming to the Lord thinking, oh, this is, I'm going to get something for me.
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Well, there's a lot. I mean, you see it financially a lot. You know, I mean, this is the. The heresy of the prosperity gospel that I am preeminent. And so if I give, God owes me tenfold or 100 fold. I do think we, as we've worshiped at the altar of family, and I think there's a lot of folks that are like, we need to start going to church because we need to raise our kids in this because we want to have a better family. Now, quite honestly, that should be a result. If you do life God's way, it tends to go better. But God doesn't play well with idols.
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Right.
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And especially if you're trying to use him to get what you want, then what you want is actually your God. And he is not a means to an end. He is the end.
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Yeah, it's like we talked about with the Sermon on the Mount. Like, the motive of the heart matters is everything. You know, he can't be anything. But first the. The Sea of Galilee. And this is, you know, as he moves into this calming the storm account, you know, have you been. You've been there?
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I have not.
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Oh, wow. But it literally is like inside of a bowl of all these hills. And so I want to ask you just talk a little bit more, Pastor Joby, about how those storms come up so big. But also I've. I've read many commentators say that sea and storm are very much. They would very much be figures of chaos inside of a Jewish perspective. So let's talk a little bit more about that.
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Yeah, it's all the way back to Genesis 1, you know, and God created the heavens of the earth, and the earth was formless and void, and the spirit hovered over it. And so he's going to take disorder and make it order. This is why there is no sea in heaven. That really means there's no chaos. Yeah, in the new heavens and the new earth. You know, there's also a lot of superstition in 1st century Galilee. Lots of people drown in the Sea of Galilee, and they believe that ghosts would be there. So in a couple of chapters, when they see Jesus walking, they're like, oh, it's a ghost. Because they're believing the superstition of the. Yeah. And then God comes and brings order where there is disorder.
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Also depending on how big the open water is. It's, you know, land. When you come to the end of the land, it's almost the end of the known. And now I'm staring into the unknown. And so there's chaos. But there's also. I have no idea how far this goes. I have no idea what's beyond that. So it's. It creates that uncertainty and that anxiety that a lot of us carry.
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And they. But having grown up on this, don't you think they would have been familiar with these storms if they were common?
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I do, but it's easy to be on the land and think, that storm's not that bad. I mean, that's what I was saying. We can all become drama queens. You ever overestimate the situation that you're in? I mean, think about whatever your worst day was, like when you were in ninth grade or something, like some girl broke up with you or, you know, and you're like, oh, this is. My life is over. And you're like, is it? I don't think it is, because Jesus is napping. So how bad could it actually be?
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Yeah, and. And. And maybe this is speculation, but, you know, your point was when Jesus says, we're going to the other side, it's a done deal.
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Correct.
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And what if they were like, weather don't look so good.
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Correct.
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But he was like, we're going.
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Yeah.
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You know, so they may have even thought before they got out there, there's a storm coming, you know, but you
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make a point about. I mean, these cats were. Some of them were fishermen. They were familiar with this terrain. And so there was. It can be a tendency to lean into your competency to be like, we've done this before, you know, and so we. Even if it gets a little bad, you know, because it doesn't. I don't think the storm is like, you know, it's switched from great to, like. It starts off and you're like, okay, this is some wind. You know, it's getting a little. It's getting a little bad. I think I can lean into my competency. And a lot of us do that. I do that. It's like, no, I've done this before. I think I'll be okay. But I'm. That's the me show. And it quickly turns bad. So. So. So there's that reality as well, that, like, yeah, they may have. They may have been familiar with this, but that's not. That's not what you put your trust in ever.
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Yeah, I said it last week, but I'll say it again. I kind of see it in the Roman centurion, man. It is not until your need exceed your ego that you will be in your knee to Jesus.
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Yeah.
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Because if you think you can handle it, then you'll handle it. Yeah,
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I was talking to somebody in my disciple group about like hermeneutics. And when you read the Bible, when do you go from meaning, interpretation, application, like that kind of stuff? So this storm, we talked a lot about how this storm can be a figure for things in our life, you know, so before we talk about those specifics, is there any insight you could give for when, when to. And when not to, you know, use that figurative picture? Because I've heard, I've heard some preachers where it's just like God, you're really riding that one, you know? You know, so how, how do we know when reading the Bible when to take those as like a figure or. The storm represents the thing in my life, you know what I mean?
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First and foremost, you just needed to read it for what it says, you know, so just because something can also be allegorically true doesn't mean it wasn't actually true. So a good example of this, what is it, Galatians 4, where he's like, let's look at Sarah and Hagar allegorically, and he uses it as a picture of the law and grace. Paul does that. That doesn't mean there wasn't actually a lady named Hagar and a lady named Sarah, and they had a baby of the promise and a baby of their own doing, you know, so the Bible does give us room to do that. I think three great questions to ask every time you do Bible study is just simply, what happened? So Jesus calmed the storm. That's literally what happened. And then so what? And then you begin to make all the applications and implications of so what does it mean that Jesus can calm storms? And then the now, now what do I need to do about it? And if you, if you answer those three questions, then it's not enough to just have the commentary of what happened one day, but this is the living word of God that is applicable to our lives. It's not just a. It doesn't just tell us what happened, it tells us what always happens. And it's living and active and so how is it living and active and applicable in my life?
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Yeah, yeah, it's dangerous to start there. I, I remember as a 12 year old in an English class and our teacher got up and read a poem and then looked at us and said, so what do you guys think it means? And a bunch of us put our hands up and he was, he was from, I think he was Scottish. And so in his Scottish way, he threw the book out the window and said it doesn't matter what you think about it. What matters is the intention of the author. Like, and. And it just. That stuck with me to go, you know, we've taken the way that we interpret the arts today to interpreting this by starting with, well, I wonder how this makes me feel. Like, what do you think? And it's like, that matters. But what is God communicating to us? Like, what is he saying? And so we just need to reorient that. Because if when we do it that way, we see so much of God's goodness in here, but when we don't, we completely miss. Then we're like the scribe we come with. Well, I think to me, he's teacher. And he. And he is. But it's like, hey, there's so much more there. What is God saying? So the order matters.
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C
And you mentioned several examples of what that storm could be. You know, and also that it's. It could be external or internal. And sometimes the internal. I mean, that's really the realm of it. Right. Like, because you. We've seen people go through external things, and they're. They're okay because something's okay inside, you know, so the inside is. But finances, relationships, sickness, setbacks caused by us. Here's the crazy thing. Caused by us or caused not by us, you know, but it still feels like that chaos. It feels like that unknown. It feels like, I'm gonna die. And it just changes so much. To go back to the. The point you started with, Jesus said, let's go through it.
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Yeah. He is not caught off guard. He is not surprised.
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Yeah.
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So he intentionally set sail into the storm.
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Yeah.
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He's also building the Christological understanding of his disciples. So at the end of this calming of the storm, they say, who is this that the wind and the waves obey? The next time in Matthew 14, they're like, surely he is the Son of God. This is the second time they've seen him do it.
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C
Oh, wow. Yeah, we'll get to that. What sort of man is this? That question always stuck with me. Well, what's the significance of Jesus being asleep? I mean, Pastor Toby, you've said you have the gift of sleep. You can sleep in in many, many different scenarios. I don't have that gift, do I? It's recently on a plane, and I was like, I would love to sleep right now, but I can't just relax. So what. What does it mean that he was
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like, I. I don't even know how
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he was asleep, because if the boat's being swamped. Have you ever been Sleeping while you were wet. That's terrible.
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I mean, remember, he's the. I think of it this way, that he is the. He's the creator of everything that we see. And so, you know, the way that a baby is cradled, like Jesus, every time I've read this, I've asked the same question, like, how on earth is he sleeping? Well, it's like he's the creator of everything. This is just cradling him to bed. And he knows. He knows, like you said, he's like, guys, we're going to the other side. We're going to make it, so we're going to be okay. But I do the same thing that I go, well, it's because he doesn't care. That's, you know, he's just. He's given up or he's not in control. You know, we run all the lies that Satan whispers in our ears and that we believe instead of looking at him and going, no, I believe who he says he is. And if that is true, and it is, then I should get a pillow and lie down and go to bed.
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You know how your kids are, like, scared of thunderstorms, but then as you get older, it's like, ooh, this is gonna be a good nap, you know?
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Yeah.
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I wonder if he was like, oh, yeah, this is good. Like, he's kind of enjoying the way that it goes.
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The peace that you experience is directly related to how much you trust God.
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It's good. Yeah.
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And so he complete. He knows the will of his father. He knows. I mean, he trusts God completely. So he is at complete peace here.
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And something. I wrote this down. Christ being at peace does not indicate indifference.
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Correct.
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You know, and sometimes when we're freaking out and losing it, we want other people to, like, join us because it makes us feel, like, empathized with or something, or cared about. But he's never going to do that. Like, he's never going to join you in your freak out. Not in that way. You know, he's going to help you come out of it. Well, this. When they, when they wake him up, he. He gives this interesting response to them. Why are you afraid? Oh, you have little faith. And it just makes me think of how you. So often, Pastor Joe, we talk about the opposite of faith is not doubt. Right. Like, so often we think, oh, if faith is something I believe in, then the absence of belief or a doubt is. Must be the opposite. No, no, it's actually fear. So is this, Is this the place where you primarily get that from?
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I mean, all over the place. You know, John 6 is my favorite place to go. When they don't understand what Jesus means by eat my flesh, drink my bl. And what he. And he doesn't explain himself. And then Peter's like, but where else am I going to go? You're the only one that offers eternal life. So the opposite of faith isn't doubt. If you've got doubts and unanswered questions, just pick them up and follow after Jesus by faith. The opposite of faith is fear, because faith always produces action and fear paralyzes. The caveat, though, is you do have this feeling of. So we kind of interchange like fear and scared. But. And for this teaching purpose, I would differentiate and say scared is a feeling, no problem. So just do it. Scared, be scared. And by faith, do what Jesus says. That's called courage, and we need courage, and that's the difference. But fear paralyzes and faith produces action. And so an actionless faith is worthless. That's kind of what James says. Faith without works. There's no faith at all,
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man.
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But our emotions get in the way. Like, I'm hearing you say that, and I, I. But you say it all the time. You know, we've got a. Emotions, Emotions are great. They're pretty good consultants. They're horrible CEOs. And, and too often we, we, we put them in that position to be able to make the decision. But doubt, I love it. I mean, Matthew 28, this is how it all ends. Even after all of these things, they're disciples who still had doubt. I mean, the text says that they showed up before, you know, Jesus is about to give the great Commission and they worship. And then it says some doubted.
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Yeah.
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And then Jesus goes, okay, cool, but I'm still going to give you the Great Commission. Like, we're still carrying on.
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Yep.
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So it's a big deal.
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And I had never, I don't think I've ever seen it before. The way that you said when their response, it's, it's irrational. Right. Save us, Lord. We're perishing. But yet you can wake him up and you're having a conversation with Jesus. You know, I'm pretty sure if you're perishing, you're like, under the water or struggling for breath. And so that just tells you that he's, he's pointing at this, like, being overcome with that emotion in that moment because of the circumstance. He's like, no, no, you're, you're letting that thing run run wild.
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Yeah.
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On you. So scared. You said that Fear and worry actually don't add to your life. Referencing, you know, from Matthew 6 and you know, have you ever studied the way that stress and anxiety shorten your life?
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Tell us more.
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So you're, you're. It has to do with your fight or flight, the system, your nervous systems in your body. So when you have that fight orf. Flight response, it's adrenal and so it's hormonal and glandular and all this kind of stuff that happens in your body. And when you. It's supposed to act very quick and it produces amazing results like being able to run fast, lift heavy things, fight, all that kind of stuff. Um, but it's just like all these other different chemical processes in your body. It can't go on indefinitely. And so it does produce all these byproducts in your body and it needs to be replenished. It increases your need for rest, to rest and restore and to re. Establish that stasis. And so if you are in this fight or flight state for too, too long, it's, it does. It just wreaks havoc to your body, makes it impossible for you to replenish and repair cells which causes them to break down, cause heart failure, cancer, all that kind of stuff and get rid of waste and you'll just be exhausted. So whether it's in our minds or just because of this, the state that we're in with so many of our modern stimuli, we live in that state of like, constantly on edge, constantly on alert.
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B
And you can see it on people's bodies, on their faces. It's like, you know somebody, how you doing? And they're like, no, I'm fine. It's like, oh, your, your body's not saying that. Your face isn't saying that. You, you are, you're gripped by fear. And so it's, it's like, how do you get. That's the question. I'm always wondering, how do, how do you get someone to that place where they're aware that fear has got a hold on them? Because they'll say all sorts of things. They'll say like, well, no, it's this, or I'm being wise or I'm discerning, or I'm, you know, and it's like, no, that's not what's happening here. Somebody's like, how do you. How does one get to that place of realization that this, this is. I am now in the realm of, of fear. Being gripped by fear.
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A
I think one of the things is to check your prayer life like that's good. The first pastor I worked for at a seminary, he would say, if you pray, why worry? And if you worry, why pray? That worry is just misplaced prayer because they're both. You have. With both of them, you have a problem, you have a thing. And with worry, you're trying to control it. You know, you're taking the faith that God has given you and you're putting it in your circumstances. And prayer is the opposite of that. You're taking the trust, the faith that God has given you, and you're bringing it to him, the king of your circumstances. And if you're still worried about it, you're not done praying about it. So I think Paul in Philippians 4 is basically saying, when he says, be anxious for nothing, but by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your request known to God. He says it four times. I think what he's saying is, so when the enemy tries to get you with anxiety, why don't you use that as a reminder to pray all the more? And then the peace of God that transcends understanding will guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus.
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B
That's why I love. Like, one of our responses here is, you know, after every. Every service is, come, come and pray. Yeah, come and pray. I mean, you know, sometimes the most courageous thing you can do is just confess that, hey, man, how I need help. I love it.
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C
I was thinking about that because I was thinking about one of our codes of conduct at the church is we pray first and decide second. And one of the marks, what's like, what's the mark of somebody who's. Who prays a lot? You know, I think it's p. One of them is peace. And it's like I was challenging myself internally as I was thinking about it, like, okay, is it. I know it's not like a formula because sometimes you pray or. Or is it, you know, like, can you pray and still not have peace? And maybe I think what you just said is you're just not done praying. You know what I mean? Like, what. But like, what. What about the person who's like, no, I am really praying, but I can't find peace. I really am still struggling with anxiety, or I really am still struggling with fear, even though I really. I think I feel like I'm praying a lot.
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What do they do then? You might want to dig into. Tell me what you are talking about when you're praying. I mean, Jesus is not at peace when he is in the Garden of Gethsemane. He's Sweating drops of blood. But he does get to the place where he says, not my will, but thy will be done. So he has resolved to be about his father's business. So his feelings might not be. That's the thing when we say peace, what in America, we mean, I feel comfortable, you know.
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Yeah.
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And what does that have to do with anything? But he was at peace with the will of the father. He knows that he, he is going to be crushed at the pleasure of his father for the redemption of the world. And he goes, okay, I'm in.
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C
That's good.
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But it was a struggle fest his prayer time. It was not a peaceful, easy feeling.
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C
You got to use the, the, the Bible's definition of words when we're thinking about what the Bible says. Can you either of you think of a time in your own life when that was you in the boat? Like, I'm overcome by fear, Lord, Lord, help me, I'm perishing. And he would have said to you, why? Oh, you have little faith. Why did you doubt or why are you afraid?
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Yeah, I think of, I mean, one of our girls went through some really, like a really tough sickness. And I wrestled. It was like I was in the boat and, and it was getting to that point where I had to realize that God loves my daughter more than I do. I keep just coming back to who he is. The moment I take my. And you pointed us to it, the moment I take my eyes off Jesus as the author and perfecter of our faith, then everything goes out of control. Everything. And I need to fix it. I need to find a solution. And he's going, it's me. I am your only solution. And so in that moment, just I'm crying out to God and saying, she's yours, she's yours, she's yours, she's yours. And this overwhelming sense of peace, I'm still in the chaos, I'm still in the crisis. But that's the difference. We think peace is like, well, okay, everything is fine. I'm removing whatever you're facing. It's like, no, no, no. Peace is. There's this idea of wholeness and sometimes even in the midst of the crisis that like, no, I'm, I'm okay because I'm with my father. I'm okay because I'm with Jesus. That's, that's, that's a thing that people look to and they go, there's something radically different about this individual. What is it? And you go, it's not the resources. It's not my intellect. It's not, it's. I just. Jesus is right here with me, and so I'm just experiencing this, this peace, this wholeness.
- [30:27]
C
And there's another. I forget where there's another gospel where they're immediately at the other side when he calms the storm. But doesn't say that here. And so if we're talking about like kind of inter. Interpreting some, Some figurative things here, it makes me want to think of what you just said. They were still out in the middle of the water.
- [30:48]
B
Yeah.
- [30:49]
C
You know, so sometimes in. When he calms the storm, you're immediately through it. But sometimes you still got a little ways to go before you get to the shore.
- [31:01]
B
But he's doing a work in you. I think that's why he rebukes them in the boat first and then rebukes that which is outside. He's like, I need to deal with you. Because even if I, If I don't deal with you first, I can change all the circumstances outside of the boat, but you're still going to be in the same situation.
- [31:18]
C
That's good.
- [31:19]
B
So the rebuke is in the boat first. And then it's like, okay, now let's deal with what's outside.
- [31:25]
C
It kind of goes back to the but first thing. You know, it's like anybody who says, well, but first and then is really fooling themselves. Right. Because they're going to get to the. They're going to get past whatever the but first is, and then there's going to be another thing. Right. It's not. Nothing internally will have changed.
- [31:41]
A
Yeah, well, the person that comes to Jesus and says, if you'll calm the storms in my life, then I'll follow you. They actually have the same attitude as the, the other guy on the cross, not the one that comes to heaven, but the guy that says, if you are the son of God, save us and us with you, and save yourself and us with you. Like, they come conditionally, like, if you'll do this for me, then I will follow you. And, you know, nobody's a big fan of that guy on the cross. We're a fan of the other guy that says, hey, will you do me a favor? You don't owe me anything. Will you remember me? And yet, so many times we come to church and say, if you'll heal my marriage, if you'll save my kid, if, if you'll calm the storm and demonstrate your power, then you will have earned my approval and I will submit to you.
- [32:37]
C
And the Pharisees say that to him once. Yeah, at Least once they say, if you truly are, prove it, you know? And he just doesn't play that game. Nope. Yeah, well, you mentioned this also, but I noticed that they marvel, you know, and it's like, I think they're maybe more afraid when he. When he calms the wind in the ways than they were when it was, when it was going. But it's different kind of fear, right? Like, it's, it's, it's reverence.
- [33:12]
A
Yeah. The fear of God brings freedom and fear of circumstances brings terror.
- [33:19]
C
Yeah. Yeah. But I think we talked about this recently. It is still kind of a holy terror. When you, when you feel, when you feel like you're kind of coming to that edge of experiencing the holiness of God. It's not a. It's not a terror, like horror, horrible terror. But there is something terrible about it. So terrified, terrifying about it. Because you. Because it's just like raw power. Yeah. You know, and raw otherness.
- [33:51]
B
Following Jesus, it just simply means that you're always constantly coming to the edge of who he is. Like, every time you think it's like, I figured, I figured him out, he goes, okay, let's take another step. And you're like, okay, wait. Okay, now I'm in Oregon. I'm in Oregon. I'm in Oregon. And that's, that's the nature of following Jesus. When we're no longer in awe of him, it begs the question, are you still following Him? You know, and I. We'll just never come to the full realization this side of heaven of who he is. It's just he's constantly making himself known. So I think it's. I think it's just yet, because you're right. Like when the next time this happens, it's like, oh, we're getting to know him a little bit. Oh, and a little bit more and a little bit more. And that's, that's the nature of following Jesus.
- [34:42]
C
I thought about another thing while you're talking. There's something called exposure therapy. Right. So it's like if you're have a phobia of something, they say, well, get, you know, get exposed to it little by little, and then more and more, and then that fear will go away. And since he says, why were you afraid? I was like, is that kind of how God builds our faith too? You know, like we're afraid of some circumstances or we see an obstacle and then we see it overcome. Does it work in a similar way, you think, like, incrementally or.
- [35:13]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think so. And we live In a world right now that says avoid everything hard. Avoid anything that triggers you. You need a safe space. Clinically speaking, that's the worst thing you can do, that if you don't face these things, you'll never grow the fortitude to be able to walk through them. So what we call mental health today oftentimes is actually mental fragility, because we avoid all things that are hard. And that does not mean a person is mentally healthy. That means they're very fragile. And so, I mean, Rebecca Maxwell, sitting on the front row, she would be the first one to tell you as a therapist, is that you're not just trying to avoid all the hard things in your pursuit of comfort, that you have to walk through hard things to develop that muscle so that you can be mentally healthy, so that you can face the next hard thing in this life. We will face trouble of all kinds, but we take heart because he's overcome the world.
- [36:17]
C
And that's it. There's this phrase, this phrase about being bold. You know, it's like, why not try it and give God the opportunity to prove himself good. Give God the opportunity to show his faithfulness there, you know? You know, you've talked about that a lot, Pastor Debbie. Like, what lies in the balance, maybe, of you stepping out, taking that step. What's the guideline for wisdom in that? Like, let's just say somebody's like, I'm gonna give God the chance to prove himself. And it's foolish. Like, where's the foolish line? Or like, reckless.
- [36:53]
A
Well, the best advice is John 2. 5. Do whatever he tells you to do. He's never going to tell you to do something that's not in his word. You should also look around and have some wise counsel around you, because both fear and courage are both contagious. And so if you've got some godly people around you and it's in alignment with God's word and he told you to do it, then you should do it and trust him with the consequences.
- [37:23]
C
Yeah, that's good. I mean, it makes me think also of when the devil is tempting Jesus. And he says, why don't you throw yourself off there because the angels will catch you. And he says, you don't put God to the test like that. You know, I really loved the. As you. As you ended the. The looks, look up, look around, look ahead, look back. I wanna. I'm curious. Like, I can't remember if I've heard you give those before. So I want to know kind of what's. Where'd you see that for this text and how. But also sometimes I think about this idea of spiritual looking, you know, like, what are you looking at? Like, they're like, we have our physical eyes and we have things that we focus on throughout the day. And it can. It can be so automatic or maybe even unintentional, you know, that we're just thinking about all these different things. And so, myself included, a lot of us don't think about where are we directing our focus, you know, so is that unique to the faith walk that we say I. I grab ahold of where I look spiritually, you know?
- [38:50]
B
Yeah.
- [38:50]
A
I mean, I think of a lot of verses. I think of Hebrews that we should fix our eyes on Jesus, the altering perfect of our faith. I think about we walk by faith and not by sight again. The next time they're out on the sea and it gets crazy and Peter's out on the water, we're going to talk about this. That as long as his eyes were fixed on Jesus, he was good. When he got fixed on the circumstances and went bad, I mean, this. This is it. We. We get so focused on our circumstances instead of the sovereign king over our circumstances. And so that that's where the looking came from. Look up and look around and look forward and. But always, this is always in light of looking back to the cross. So we do have an advantage. We don't ever have to ask, do you even care? We know that he cares because of the cross.
- [39:39]
B
I love the look around. You know, one of the intentional ways that we do that here is through the telling of testimonies, is every week, just hearing testimony after testimony after testimony of what God is doing in people's lives. I mean, we see it here in the text that the same intensity that defined the storm defines the peace. And it's powerful. It's powerful to hear, hey, here's what I was going through. This was what my life was like. And then Jesus comes and gives peace. He gives this wholeness. And so I love that. And we don't do that enough. I think of so many churches that actually don't do that. So you have no idea of what God is doing in the community. No wonder, over time you just kind of think, well, nothing's really happening yet.
- [40:30]
C
And it really does. It's like borrowing faith, like it stirs your faith. We were with this group of bunch of people who were involved in church planting, and there was this one session where people were just sharing things going on in their churches. And it was like at the End of it, it was like, wow, God is doing amazing things in the world. And it was all through these testimonies. We met these guys from Germany and they go, you know, Pastor Joby Martin. We just started his book study, Stand Firm and Act Like Men.
- [41:06]
B
We love it.
- [41:07]
C
So that was pretty cool.
- [41:10]
A
Yeah. Because if you're at the center of your own universe and God's not doing what you want to do, you. You'll ask, where are you, God? Where are you, God? But when you're surrounded by a faith community, you'll. You'll continuously say, there you are, God. And there you go, there you are, God. And he may not be doing what you want him to do in your life right now, but you see evidence of him at work all over the place.
- [41:34]
C
And you know what's not on your list? Look inward.
- [41:39]
A
No.
- [41:40]
C
Which is the world's answer. So, like, you got the answer inside of you, you know, and. And you said before the Jordan Peterson thing about when you, like, over self reflection is the same as depression, you know, so I'm thankful that these are the antithesis to that. Yeah, right. Look something. Look some other direction besides yourself.
- [42:01]
B
Yeah. I mean, if. Whenever I do that, it results in this. If I look. If I'm honest and I look inward, I just end up here where I cry out to God and say, lord, save me, have mercy on me.
- [42:13]
A
Yeah. If you look inward, you'll just get more afraid because. Because this looking inward is the same as looking into the future and seeing you as in control of it. And you'll be great with fear because, you know, you don't have what it takes.
- [42:25]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [42:27]
C
That is so. It's so empty, you know, And. And you hear it a lot. If you're looking, you know, you got. You got it inside of you. We've all got the answers. I just. There's nothing good inside apart from Christ. Yeah. I wanted to point out this psalm because when you talked about looking back, there's a psalm just to read, you know, you want to do a little homework later. Psalm 77. Because it starts off with like, he's really depressed. He's talking about being just like, oh, man, this is terrible. This is terrible. And he starts saying, his is God. Just help me, help me, help me. I'm suffering. Has God forgotten his love? And then in verse 10, Psalm 77, 10 says. Then I said, I will appeal to this, to the years of the right hand of the most high. I will remember the deeds of the Lord, your wonders of old, and ponder all Your work. And so the antidote to his sorrow and his feeling like maybe God's abandoned me was to look back.
- [43:39]
A
Yeah. In the Old Testament, when God would move in a mighty way, he would always tell them to build an altar, and then he would say so that when your children ask, you could point to the faithfulness of God. And oftentimes we've lost that in the modern individualistic, it's all about me and my personal relationship with Jesus kind of thing. So it's back to what you were saying about the strength of testimony is just giving testimony to the faithfulness of God over and over and over. I also think that kind of the thing you were talking about about stress and anxiety, it's virtually impossible to simultaneously feel stressed and blessed. Like, gratitude and anxiety cannot coexist. This is where things like a gratitude list can be very, very helpful. And what you're doing is you're just looking back at your show over your shoulder, and you're seeing the faithfulness of God and you're being grateful for all of God's goodness and faithfulness in your life. And it's really hard to simultaneously be anxious while you are being grateful.
- [44:52]
C
Yeah. And there's. There's something to be learned from. You know, God's already proved his love, you know, and so if you're. If you're looking for things to be grateful. If I'm looking for things to be grateful for, even if I can't see anything in my life right now, you know, I can be grateful for who God is and for what he's done, because that exists outside of my circumstances. And oftentimes that's got more juice for my gratitude. Then thank you for that beautiful sunrise today, you know, or that I. I slept good.
- [45:26]
A
You know, I also think you can be grateful that none of the suffering that you are enduring is meaningless. It is light and momentary. And he is preparing for you an eternal weight of glory for you. That glory, I mean, it gets kind of like you got. I almost feel like I have to tiptoe around these words because anytime I use the word glory, I want it only to be for Jes. He's like, well, actually, somehow this suffering that you're going through, this pain, this storm, whatever, I am using it to prepare for you something in eternity that will be so glorious that you will look back and no matter how horrendous it is, and go, that was light and momentary. Then that's not to diminish the suffering. It's to expand your view of what the Fully realized kingdom of heaven will be.
- [46:28]
B
Sorry, man. The glory, that's so good. So I can't get over that the fact that Jesus calls us co heirs is another wait, what? And so the glory. But then eternity, we get stuck on the now and again. It's not to make little of, hey, I gotta wake up tomorrow and do life. We'll read sometimes the scriptures and I'll go because of sin. You know, even the people that live to 100, 800, that was so short. Like heaven looks and goes, ah, your time was cut short. That there is eternity waiting. Where I will spend. Where we will spend time with the Father and the glory. It really does put a ton into eternal perspective.
- [47:19]
C
And the play on words is really big there. I think glory just means weight. It's like the weight of the weight. And the thing that's producing the weight, he says, is light. And so if you think about weightlifting, you know, a lot about weightlifting, light doesn't produce heavy. You know, heavy produces heavy. But if you could figure out a way to lift light and get the result of weight upon weight, you'd want to do that, right? That's like those gimmicks of those TV things that do your ab crunches for, you know, I don't think they work. But he's saying that this light, this it's, it's light compared to what it's going to get. So it's almost like, hey, if I get. If I told you you could put a dollar in this investment account, it's going to turn to a million in 10 years. You'd be like, yeah, sounds good. You know, that's amazing. Well, we are, are entering into Holy Week and so I wanted to spend the last few minutes talking about how to prepare for Easter. And I don't know if we should talk about this or not, but we're not in the end of Matthew, you know, we're not in the section where he's gonna, you know, so how should we be thinking about where we are in the journey and just Easter in general?
- [48:46]
A
Hopefully you're praying and fasting on Wednesday. Come to the Passion service on Tuesday. Technically every Sunday when you come to worship, you're worshiping on the resurrection Day and we worship a living Christ.
- [49:04]
B
Amen.
- [49:05]
A
And so Easter is just the time that the church picked that we would really focus on the empty tomb. But I mean, we're going to be tearing off the roof. But be prepared, because the reason that we worship is because the tomb is empty, period.
- [49:26]
C
Anything you'd add about Preparation for Easter, what have you learned? Is, like, most helpful.
- [49:32]
B
I mean, I just look back to the disciples. What they cried out is come with a posture of desperation. We are all in desperate need of a savior, and his name is Jesus. And our salvation is like it flows from desperation that I can't save me. So is our sanctification that he is as he continually works in us. So, Easter, we're crying for God to save many people, and at the same time, we're crying that people would continue to keep their eyes fixed on him. And that just requires just the posture of, I am desperate for the Lord. And so when we pray, when we fast, that's what we're doing. We're saying, more of you, Jesus, less of us. Come, Lord Jesus, come. And so if. When we do that, I believe. I mean, the Lord loves it. The Lord loves it. He wants to be where he's wanted. And so we should never take this for granted. And, oh, it's Easter again, you know, oh, we're going to do the same thing. No, no, no. Every Sunday. I love that. Every Sunday. And so that's how we prepare and posture ourselves.
- [50:43]
C
And Pastor Joby, you kind of did a recapitulation of the. If the tomb is empty, anything is possible, right? It's like, if you believe all this stuff, if Jesus can come out of the grave, then what can he not do?
- [50:56]
A
Amen.
- [50:56]
C
You know? And so, yeah, I'm certainly praying for the people in my life to and want to invite him. And. And I love celebrating Easter. I think it's awesome. Well, any. Any other. Other closing thoughts, Pastor Joby, before we pray?
- [51:11]
A
No. Let me pray. Father in heaven, Lord, I pray specifically. Right now, there are some folks that are going through a storm, and you know it. You're not surprised by it. It actually passed through your sovereign hand. And so, Lord, they feel like they're perishing. And they may. They may even wonder if you care. Lord, I thank you that you have demonstrated your love for us fully and finally and completely, that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And, Lord, I pray that through Christ, these folks could experience your peace. Pray in Jesus name. Thank you for listening to the podcast the End.
- [51:56]
C
You nailed it.
- [52:01]
B
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A
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B
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