Waging Good Warfare - S18E4

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Waging Good Warfare" – Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin (S18E4)

Date: January 27, 2025
Host: Pastor Joby Martin
Guests: Pastor Britt, Co-Host
Theme: Exploring spiritual warfare, prayer, and living out faith through 1 Timothy 1–2

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Overview

This episode dives deep into Paul’s charge to Timothy to "wage the good warfare" in ministry and the Christian life (1 Timothy 1:18ff). Through candid, practical, and sometimes humorous conversation, Pastor Joby Martin, Pastor Britt, and the co-host unpack what it means to fight spiritual battles well, why both inner struggle and peace are signs of the Spirit, the centrality of prayer, how encouragement and accountability matter, and the practical implications for church leadership and every believer. Special emphasis is given to prayer—its forms, pitfalls, and maturing practice, as well as the importance of praying for leaders and societal peace.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining "Good Warfare" (01:15 – 06:55)

• Spiritual Context: Paul’s language about "waging good warfare" is explored as a call to active, spiritual engagement—both for the sake of one’s own soul and on behalf of others.
  • Pastor Joby: “When you're fighting for something good, it's a good war... you're fighting for salvation and spiritual freedom.” [01:23]
• Challenge to the Modern Church: Many Christians are unaware or unprepared for spiritual battle; the team references John Piper’s "wartime mindset":
  • “We've traded in the walkie-talkie calling in for supplies on the front line to intercom in the den for more comforts.” [03:18]
• Bad vs. Good Warfare: Bad warfare means fighting people (flesh and blood) or focusing on self-obsession; good warfare is outward, for the body of Christ.
  • Pastor Britt: “We get trapped in the vicious cycle of internal warfare...but what Paul's talking about…is being shoulder to shoulder...interested in their brother's well-being.” [04:06]

2. Inner Struggle = Evidence of Spiritual Life (05:58 – 07:41)

• Sanctification: The struggle is normal and a sign of God at work, not spiritual failure.
  • Pastor Joby: “If there's a constant inner conflict in you as a believer, nothing's wrong with you. Something's really right with you.” [05:59]
• Dangers of Self-Evaluation: Excessive introspection leads to spiritual self-absorption; self-sacrifice is the Kingdom’s goal.

3. Encouragement, Calling, and Accountability (07:41 – 10:55)

• Power of Spoken Encouragement: Paul (and spiritual leaders today) builds up others by calling out God’s promises and calling in them.
  • Pastor Joby: “I want to say true things about people—encouragement in line with the word of God that I see in people.” [10:23]
  • Pastor Britt: “Encouragement...means to put courage in them.” [10:55]
• Calling is for God’s Glory: Gifts/talents are for the edification of the church, not personal realization.

4. Holding Faith and a Good Conscience (11:11 – 16:57)

• Shipwreck Faith: It's possible for believers to make shipwreck of their lives (though not lose salvation) by ignoring conscience and disobeying God.
  • “You might not go to hell, but you can live in a hell now until you get to go to heaven.” [12:40]
• Public vs. Private Gifting: Giftedness may operate while character fails, but “eventually your character is going to catch up with you.” [13:51]
• Motives for Obedience: Love of Christ and concern for others (family, church) guard from ruin.

5. Church Discipline & Protecting the Flock (19:08 – 20:54)

• Handing Over to Satan: If someone persistently disrupts or preys on the church, leadership must exclude them for the safety of others.
  • “To love a wolf is to hate a sheep. To show grace to a wolf is death to a sheep.” [20:29]

6. Prayer: Forms, Methods, and Heart (21:39 – 34:44)

• Types of Prayer (1 Timothy 2:1) Explored: Supplications (asking), prayers (communion), intercessions (on behalf of others), thanksgiving.
  • Practical advice:
    • “Get after it, and get through yourself. Don’t just pray for yourself.” [26:38]
    • “A significant part of your prayer life ought to be listening...it's almost impossible to hear while you're talking.” [34:44]
• Model Prayer: The Lord’s Prayer ("Our Father...") provides categories: relational, God-centered, provision, protection.
• Methods Can Help or Hinder: Methods should serve relationship, not become legalistic traps; growth means prayer becomes "intuitive" over time.
  • Joby: “What starts out with a lot of instruction over time just becomes intuitive.” [31:49]

Notable Moment:
“God is only as real to me as prayer is important to me.” — Pastor Britt quoting Tim Keller [32:14]

7. Praying for Leaders & the Public Good (48:10 – 58:39)

• Societal Peace: Christians are called to pray for those in authority to foster societal peace and facilitate gospel witness.
  • “God's design is peace, not chaos. The church will prevail...but God's ideal is peace and order.” [50:41]
• Polity and Prayer: Christians shouldn't idolize political leaders nor demonize them. True hope remains in Jesus.
  • “Don’t pray about them...and you don’t pray to them. They are not the answer.” [55:03]
• Practical Example: In developing world missions, meeting practical needs like food creates access for the gospel.

8. Sovereignty, Salvation, and God’s Desires (58:53 – 61:47)

• Tension Explored: How can God be sovereign and desire all to be saved? Both realities are affirmed in Scripture, though not fully comprehensible.
  • “Those things are simultaneously true...I use words like election and predestination because…that’s the words they use. And [I] say God wants you because…that's what the verse says.” [59:47]
• Mystery & Glory: “There’s always a greater glory...even including in salvation and in his desire for all people.” [61:07]

9. Seasons and Growth in Prayer (62:26 – 66:09)

• Desperation Drives Prayer: Seasons of suffering and deep responsibility most often deepen prayer.
  • “It’s always desperation...that's what led to...my, like, time in the woods situation.” [62:31]
• Moving from Defense to Offense: The goal is to proactively seek God in prayer, not wait for emergencies.
  • “I want to try to willfully choose to pray with a warfare mentality, not be forced into it.” [63:32]
• Maturity in Prayer: More about affection and attention than wordy performance.

10. Global/Practical Perspectives (67:43 – 70:17)

• International Examples: Believers in persecution or poverty demonstrate deep reliance on prayer that often stretches Western notions.
  • “Some people...wake up every day panting for the presence of God because they need him to survive another day.” [70:17]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Wartime Prayer Mindset:
  “We’ve traded in the walkie talkie calling in for supplies on the front line to intercom in the den for more comforts.” — Pastor Joby Martin [03:18]

• On Self-Sacrifice vs. Self-Service:
  “If you spend the majority of your time in self evaluation, it will only become self service. It’s got to be self sacrifice for the sake of the kingdom.” — Pastor Joby Martin [06:33]

• On Evidence of the Spirit:
  “If there’s a constant inner conflict in you as a believer, nothing’s wrong with you. Something’s really right with you.” — Pastor Joby Martin [05:59]

• On Shipwreck Faith:
  “You might not go to hell, but you can live in a hell now until you get to go to heaven.” — Pastor Joby Martin [12:40]

• On Praying for Leaders:
  “God's ideal is peace and order. So when we pray for our leaders, we're praying that God would use them in the right way that would promote peace and order.” — Pastor Joby Martin [50:41]

• On Prayer as Evidence of Faith:
  “God is only as real to me as prayer is important to me.” — Quoting Tim Keller (shared by Pastor Britt) [32:14]

• On Models and Methods of Prayer:
  “A really robust, sound prayer life began with lots of instruction...eventually it’s very intuitive.” — Pastor Joby Martin [31:49]

• Encouragement Defined:
  “Encouragement...means to put courage in them.” — Pastor Britt [10:55]

• On the Mystery of God’s Will in Salvation:
  “It is completely true that God is sovereign in salvation and he desires all people to be saved.” — Pastor Joby Martin [60:27]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Good Warfare: 00:00–06:55
• Encouragement & Calling: 07:41–10:55
• Faith, Conscience, and Discipline: 11:11–20:54
• Defining Prayer & Types: 21:39–34:44
• Praying for Leaders & Social Peace: 48:10–58:39
• Sovereignty in Salvation Q&A: 58:53–61:47
• Personal Growth in Prayer: 62:26–66:09
• Global & Practical Perspective: 67:43–70:17

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Final Reflections

This episode balances theological depth, practical wisdom, humor, and real-life vulnerability, all while keeping the focus on waging spiritual battle through prayer and active reliance on Christ, both personally and corporately. It invites listeners to reflect sincerely on their own spiritual discipline, especially in prayer and encouragement, to live sacrificially for others, and to contribute to a peaceful, godly society through everyday faithfulness.

[Closing Prayer and Blessing at 70:45]

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For further study:

• 1 Timothy 1–2
• Piper, "Don't Waste Your Life"
• Luther, "A Simple Way to Pray"

Learn more & support:

• JobyMartin.com
• COE22.com/donate

Transcript

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in. Do you need a miracle?

[Pastor Britt]

Currently, no. No doubt about it.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

I can always think of multiple. When you open sermon with that Pastor Joby, we're talking about prayers, warfare, and wow, what a powerful night. Amen. It was awesome. Dude.

[Pastor Britt]

Anytime you bust out the anointing oil. Let's get it.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Let's go.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

I sound extra sultry because of the loud prayers at the end of the.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Let's go.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

The end of the service. You end up yelling because of the music being loud, but it's all right. Well, you know, been digging through one Timothy, and, man, we talked about prayer, and it's. It's. The section that you preached on, Pastor, was from the end of chapter one, talked about the charge that Paul is giving to Timothy, and he says, wage good warfare. And so let's start by talking about what that means. You know, we. What is good warfare and why does he tell him to wage it?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Well, when you're fighting for something good, it's a good war. You know, whether it's freedom or the lives of people or in this case, you're fighting for salvation and spiritual freedom. I mean, it is in the context of ministry. And, boy, it would have helped me a lot if my crooked seminary would have told me getting into ministry was going to war. Actually, I was. I went to this crappy liberal seminary, and they. They were kind of the. Like, we should remove any kind of war talk from the Bible because it was offensive or something.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah, I saw the.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

By the way, they. If Paul would have gone to my seminary, he would have listed them with, yeah, it wasn't good.

[Pastor Britt]

Oh, man, what a bummer to get your Bible. Your name in the Bible that way. Brutal, bro.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Wait a minute. I've heard of you. Wait a minute.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

It's funny you say that, because somehow my. One of my social media algorithms starts pulling up these. I guess because of what's happening recently in the news, but these terrible sermon clips from just totally heretical churches.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Correct.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

And there's this one that's just like, I'm so offended by the king language in the.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Has no. It has no place. I'm just like, oh, my God.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And then she. She says, oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Oh, yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Oh, yeah, man. Yeah. It's a war, dude. It's a war. And. And if you're in ministry, you're going. You're not even just fighting for yourself. You're in the battle on behalf of a whole bunch of other people.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You know, some of them are saints, a part of the. The team. And. And you're fighting like crazy to rescue a whole bunch of people that Jesus came on a rescue mission for. But the amount of people that just. It doesn't even occur to them that we're at war. It. You know, Piper says it in. In don't waste your life. You know the problem with. With our prayers. Because we don't have a wartime mindset.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

That we've traded in the walkie talkie calling in for supplies on the front line to intercom in the den for more comforts.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

I love what you said about sucker punches. You know, it's like if you don't know the punching has started, you're the sucker.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

That's a. And. And Stolzenitsyn's Gulag. You know, that thing that was it that the people that were getting arrested by the Russian police and thrown in the gulags, they never. They just assumed that it wasn't going to happen to them. And so when the police woke up that day and they thought, today we're arresting Vinky. And Vinky woke up that day thinking, I'm just going to go to work. Well, the fight was over before it started because one group already knew they were going to fight and the other guy didn't know they were going to fight. And the person unprepared is always weaker.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So many people.

[Pastor Britt]

I was thinking the phrase good warfare is interesting to me. It implies that there is a such thing as bad warfare and the imminent reality of war you addressed. Clearly. But I was really thinking about the good warfare versus the bad warfare. And it's like you go to. Paul says, we don't wrestle against flesh and blood. So I am waging bad warfare when I wrestle against flesh and blood. And that's where I. And trying to fight it is on a carnal level. But I also think that a lot of times we get trapped in the vicious cycle of warfare, like in our Western individualism, that we're fighting this internal warfare all the time. Like us. Again, we're trying to just hold us down. We're trying to learn how to control us better. And what Paul's talking about, what you just said, it's about being shoulder to shoulder, arm and arm. And if I'm waging the good warfare, I'm waging that warfare. As a good soldier. And every good soldier is way more interested in their brother's well being and in their brother's safety. And then they are the implications on themselves. You know what I mean?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I do.

[Pastor Britt]

So much of it's outwardly focused toward the family of God.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I can remember we were doing. When we were doing second Timothy, long time ago, and I interviewed Tim Tebow, and he was talking about how very little he thought about defense because he was trying to advance the ball. And then he was talking about, spiritually speaking, it's hard for the enemy to advance on him when he spends the majority of his time thinking about how does he advance the ball in the kingdom. You know, I thought that's a very, very good analogy. I will say this, though. I think there's a lot of people that need to understand that if. If there is a constant inner conflict in you as a believer, nothing's wrong with you. Something's really right with you.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Right.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Like Paul talks about in Romans 7. You know, there is an inner. There's simultaneously two things when you become a Christian. Inner war and inner peace. And both of those things are real.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And the inner war is God sanctifying you. You know, it's your flesh fighting against being crucified to Christ. And there's an inner peace that transcends understanding. So if you don't want to pray, if you. Whatever. Whatever the things are, dude, it's actually evident. The fact that there's a war going on is evidence of the work of the Spirit in you. You're not just broken.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But if you don't like what Pastor Britt is saying. We've talked about this a lot lately, but if you spend the majority of your time in self evaluation, it will only become self service. It's got to be self sacrifice for the sake of the kingdom. That. That's the goal.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah. That's a great grain of salt to take with the obsession with balance.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

That's in a lot of our culture. Right. Is to say, like, it seems to be almost in the water, that I should be at rest and at ease. You know, there's like that underlying belief. And so what you're saying is struggle is just part of life.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Pastor Brett's been a. He was on Ally's Neighbors podcast recently, or at least I listened to it recently, and he spent. She asked him a lot of questions about, like, when can self care be a negative thing? And again, if self care is a means to a God glorifying end of, I want to love The Lord my God, with all my strength. If I want to finish the fight, if I want to wage the good warfare, then praise God. I think that's very Shema, Deuteronomy. But if self care is for myself, my comfort, me, me, mine, it is, it is really just idolatry turned inward. It's very dangerous.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, we've talked a lot about it. I think part of what Timothy's, what Paul's charging Timothy with here, it goes to the, you know, verse 18, this charge I entrust to you. There's a trust in that relationship which breathes life. Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you because of these things that by them you wage the good warfare. And so Paul's reminding Timothy, I'm behind you and that there have been men and women, whomever who have offered these words over you. And when you offer, when you. But it wasn't. People weren't commissioning or charging. They didn't lay hands on Timothy for the sole sake of Timothy realizing his fullest potential.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Correct.

[Pastor Britt]

It was for Timothy's purposes to be realized in the family of God and as the pastor of this church. And so I think that verse really sticks to me. It's one, it's like one you probably don't memorize. But it's like how many people have come along and just spoken life into you. And the ones that really stick are the ones that are speaking life not about what you're good going to accomplish, but about what God's going to kind more or less like what this life is going to cost you. You know what I mean? Like, that's. Those are the things that really stick on you in the sense of like, you know, purpose and cost and purpose and sacrifice are inherently. They just come together.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Well, when Peter says it this way, his divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness. A part of the way I understand that is there's a direct correlation to what God has put in you and what God has called you to do. And you can look at it in either direction. Like, you know, if it's God's will, it's God's bill. Like if he's called you to do a thing, then he's going to equip you to do the thing that he's called you. So Peter, if he tells you to get out of the boat, he's going to give you the ability to walk on water through him. You can look at it the other way too is if, if you look in you and you've got some gifts and talents that God put in there. He didn't put. He put it in there for his glory and edification of his church, the advancement of his gospel. So then how do you leverage those things that he has put in you for his good and glory? And I think the word. I mean, I spent a little bit of time on this one because I'm just so tired of the world of criticism and cynicism about everybody. And man, we. I want us, the three of us, and I want the. The men in our church to be some prophets. Not into, like, big P, but the. Just I want to say true things about people. Encouragement in line with the word of God that I see in people.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah. I think encouragement is kind of like. Is a horizontal. That has the same effect as gratitude. Like, you know how gratitude to God is like lifting. Like, it breathes this life into your worship and breathes this life into your. It can, like, change your mood and all this kind of stuff. I think that when you do the thing you're talking about this way in relationships, it has a similar effect. Like, it can just. That's what encouragement means. Right. It's like, if you break it down, it means to build it up. Like, to build up that person means.

[Pastor Britt]

To put courage in them. That's what I always think about encouragement.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And which Timothy needed a ton of. I mean, I've talked about it a bunch, but, you know, you read between lines on all these things. Single mom, mixed family. You know, dad was a Greek, mom was a Jew.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Like, he had. He had so much horizontally coming against him. And it seems like to me, the way I see this is Paul is like, look, my son, part of the reason God put me in your life is for you to hear true things that are louder than the lies that this world's telling you that you're not enough.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And. And, you know, if God's called you to it, then he's going to give you what you need to be who he's called you to be.

[Pastor Britt]

That's verse 12. You know, Paul says, I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to this service. Oh, that's. That's legit.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

One of the things I do in my Bible is I. I underline and circle and it, you know, if it's on a page like this, I, like, draw a line to the same word. And when I read the section that we were in, I noticed that there's the repetition of charge. Yeah, you pointed that out. But remember when earlier in chapter one, you said the aim of our charge is love?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Right.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

That issues from pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith. So when he tells Timothy wages a good warfare, he says hold faith and a good conscience. So he picks those two things. Interesting that he picks them. You know, we could probably get into that if we wanted to. But then he says by rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith. Now we know that that doesn't mean they lost their salvation. But what does it mean? What does shipwreck of your faith mean? Because you can't lose your salvation.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, you cannot lose your salvation. But man, you can jack your life up. You might not go to hell, but you can live in a hell now until get to go to heaven. You see, Christians do this all the time, financially, relationally. And what they do is. This is exactly what they do. They wrote they're, they're run by fear and not faith. Or they swerve doctrinally or they don't have a good conscience. In other words, they willfully disobey God. And God does not promise to be rescued from those circumstances. He'll save you eternally, but he does not promise to save you from your own sinful decisions.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, you can be a person who claims faith and make bad decisions.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Oh yeah. And the list is long publicly of very gifted people. And dude, Dear gifting will never outpace your character. If your character isn't stable, then eventually that thing comes crashing down hard.

[Pastor Britt]

What's wild about that though is that the gift works.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Oh yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

And for a time is that the gift works.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Oftentimes a long time while you're doing this.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, you cannot be holding faith in a good conscience. But for whatever reason, for God's purposes, he's given you a gift. And the gift will work.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Oh yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

But eventually your character is going to catch up with you. There's no question about it. Me too. You know, it's like I. I aspire a desire to hold faith and a good conscience. You know, I don't want to be a conflict in my conscience against Christ. You know, like I want to have the mind of Christ.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So, yeah, I mean, I got a lot long way to go and stuff, but I don't know about y'. All, this probably is not, this is not the highest motivation sometimes you, you've talked about you got the four things of love from. What is it?

[Pastor Britt]

Bernard Clarvo.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So this is definitely low on the totem pole of hierarchy of this kind of obedience. There is no doubt in my li. In my mind. I feel so blessed. I feel so grateful for my wife, my kids, the church I get to pastor, the position I'm in, a gift he's given me, the opportunities I have, that there are what 20 years ago were some temptations in my life. I'm like, no chance I'm going down that road, you know what I mean? And so I don't know where that is on. Like, that's not just obedience for obedience sake. That's like, dude, I know what's on, you know, at stake here. I think this is a part of what Paul's telling Timothy. He's like, lud, if you shipwreck your life, you got a whole church and they're going to take on water too. That's the sad thing about when you're in a place of ministry.

[Pastor Britt]

Yes. It's funny, all things, the, the many things can simultaneously be true. They're all connected and rooted in each other. So for example, like why you, why you don't commit adultery?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Right.

[Pastor Britt]

So there's a lot of reasons why. One, you love your wife, right?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

And the idea of hurting her in that way is just. You can't stand it. You know what I mean? I'm saying I'm looking at you, but in general, you, this, you love your wife too, you love your kids, right. And especially in our life, you've seen over and over and over again the collateral consequences. There's grace and all that, but there's just collateral.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Bad dude. Shipwreck is a good.

[Pastor Britt]

So shipwreck is a great way to think about it.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

What a great image, isn't it?

[Pastor Britt]

Well, you say train wreck, but shipwreck is a great way. Maybe we should change it.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

You say you love your kids, frankly, in the interest of self preservation, that you love yourself. Like if you, me, you, whoever, if we do that, that's it, man, everything we know to be our life is going to come to a screeching halt in regards to our professional life, in regards to our calling, in regards to our, like, we're going to be in a really, really, really bad place self. So those are all three good conscience based. But the highest is that you love Christ.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Correct.

[Pastor Britt]

And you would never want to do anything to defame his name and to hurt his bride. And these are all very legitimate good conscience motivations for not shipwreck. Shipwrecking your life or shipwrecking your faith. That said, there's an enemy prowling around, so I don't say that with judgment as much as the diagnosis around the human heart. And, you know, it's. There's a lot of loves going on there that keep you in a good conscience. You know what I mean?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I totally do.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

That's why I love the fact that he says holding faith and a good conscience. Because when I think of seared conscience, I mean, my mind goes to corrupted, corrupt church leaders, you know, because it's the thing that you say at some point the Holy Spirit says, don't do it. And you said, nah, you know, and there's a separation that's created. I can hold faith over here, but my, my seared conscience doesn't matter. And it's how you have church leaders who get up and preach on Sunday, but they're doing all kind of crazy stuff.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, I think they're in, like, inner turmoil. Yeah. Oh, and I forget who I heard somebody talking about this. You know, there's so many podcasts out there, and they, they were talking to a pastor that had fallen and was in like a, you know, long term extramarital affair. And they're like, dude, how'd you preach so good for so long? And they let their gifting be the loudest voice in their internal dialogue. So, like, they'd get done on Sunday and they're like, all right, I'm never doing that again. And then they would sin, they'd go sleep with somebody, and then they're like, I need to quit. But by the next Sunday, they had talked themselves into how God was using them anyway. And so they elevated their gifting above everything else. Dude, I mean, that's. That's some sick whisper enemy stuff right there.

[Pastor Britt]

Your conscience is killing.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Like, when you say that out loud, that's one of the things. We've talked about this before. When people are. Are trying to, like, justify some sin, a lot of times I'll just say, say this out loud to me. Say the thing that you're trying to justify. Just put it in a simple sentence. And sometimes you hear yourself say something out loud and you go, God, I'm sound like a crazy person, you know, and so I think when you. When those guys would hear themselves say that and they'd be like, ugh. Yeah, but I mean, I don't know, man. You get the devil's. I mean, he's sneaky, man. It's a trap. It entangles, it's. It's tough. And, you know, Paul's warning is war. The enemy doesn't care how he kills you. Do you Think he cares if it's a knife or it's a bomb or it's a tank? It doesn't matter. It's like a bass fisherman. Do you really care if it's a top water plug or if it's a repeller or if it's a worm? You don't care. You just want to catch fish. And so he doesn't care how he hooks you. He just wants to get the hooks in you and kill you.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You don't care if it's money or women or pride or. It doesn't matter to him.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Then he uses that strong language about these. He name drops the two guys and says, I've handed them over to Satan.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

And you said, you know, I'm just going to.

[Pastor Britt]

He went Romans 1 on it.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah, I'm gave them over. Right. But when you were talking to N, it hit me that when you, when you're talking about warfare and you're doing war on behalf of others, handing over to Satan would mean, I'm not going to go to war for you anymore, you know, because you're. You've left the.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You've left the fold. Well, what's. I mean, there's a lot here on church discipline and how that is to be walked out. So we are a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. If you are a person here intentionally trying to prevent all people from discovering and deepening a relationship with Jesus Christ, then you are preventing. You're trying to prevent us from doing what God has called us to do. And so mercy on that person is hate and danger towards the disciples. So to love a wolf is to hate a sheep. To show grace to a wolf is death to a sheep. And that's very hard for some people to hear. But yeah, there are some people that we have said, you are not allowed to come here anymore. If you've ever been a predator towards anybody here, then we. You were outside of fellowship here for the sake. This. This first and foremost has to be a safe place for all people.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Whether that's theologically or physically, all these things matter. You know.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

In that case, they've rejected a good conscience.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Oh, for sure.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

You know, and. And that's hard. But so then I was laughing when I was reading this because he said, first of all, and it's the start of the second chapter in our Bible.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

It's a real. It's a real. I mean, the reason, you know, if you looked at this, if you're preaching this the way it was set up by chapter and verse. You wouldn't connect those two.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Right.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But I don't. I think. I don't know. I think it's a miss on the chapter verses, because, I mean, the verse. We start with verse 18. This here's the charge. Now here's why. Because I'm entrusting you because God's entrusted me. And watch out for those guys. And then he finally loops back to what the charge is. So the charge is the wage of good warfare. First of all, in waging a good warfare. Can we talk about prayer?

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yep, yep. So it's almost like he's saying, I give it to you as first importance.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

So maybe not first in sequence, but very important.

[Pastor Britt]

Well, he's establishing the purpose of the letter early. Right. To protect sound doctrine.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

And the way you protect sound doctrine, the motivation in that is that the arm. The aim of our charge is love. And that there's a lot of people out there that go to seminary or learn stuff for the sake of debating or for the sake of being smarter than the next person. And the aim of their charge is not love.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Right.

[Pastor Britt]

You know, who hasn't sat across the table from somebody and they're like, you know, I love. I love reading theology books. I think Pastor Trey Brunson's brother gave testimony one time. God changed in his life. And in his video, he was like, I used to read theology books just to debate people.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

So the purpose of his learning was to be smarter.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

And Paul's like, no, man. The point of sound doctrine is not so that you can lord it over people. It's love. And so that's where he starts. But he's turning now into, this is how we. When we come together, when we publicly gather, these are the things that. That's what he's about to get into in two and three.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Like, these are the instructions practically and tactically.

[Pastor Britt]

So let's start with prayer.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

You know, I heard.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

I heard one of our friends, Pastor Larry Osborne, say one time that first and second Timothy and Titus, because they're specifically written to pastors that, like, we should read them like that, like their pastor's instruction books, with which, if you are a pastor or a leader in ministry, obviously phenomenal to read. But if you're not a ministry leader or on staff at a church, what filter should you use for stuff like this? Because what you're saying is, hey, lead your church like this.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Right.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

I mean, so if you're a guy who's just going to Church or a lady, you know, I mean, how do you interpret.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I would. I would lay. So also to Timothy's church. He writes Ephesians, and in Ephesians 4, he says that the role of the pastors is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. So every Christian is in ministry. So this all applies. There's going to be some specifics about, like, roles of elders and things like that that are specific that we'll get into later. But I would put that priesthood, the believer priesthood of the believer. Glasses, lenses on in order to see this, that we're all called into the ministry of reconciliation.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah. Which you did address as well, talking about the mediator.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Right.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

You know, I love the list that he gives. And he says, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all people. And you spit. It's funny, I thought of, like. I thought you were going to say, like, when you're praying real intense and.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Like, you spit on people.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah, dude.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

When I'm preaching, sometimes I can just see it flying out, and I'm like, I wonder if this shows up.

[Pastor Britt]

I spend that time, Jesus spitting that dude's face.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

Like, spits on the guy.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And the guy, like.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Did he spit on him?

[Pastor Britt]

He spits in the mud.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

You know, and then puts it on the guy's face. But he's spitting.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

And. And he. The guy wakes up, and this is the same testimony that the guy wakes up and he's like.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

It's blurry.

[Pastor Britt]

I see.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

I see people look like trees.

[Pastor Britt]

Trees walking around, but they're kind of like people. It's like, did Jesus make a mistake? We've talked many times here.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Did you ever, like, a grandma or great aunt who would like, you know, try to clean.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Oh, man, my mama. Yeah. On your cowlick. She'd spit that thing down. Yeah. If you had a.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Something about spit, just can clean anything, you know, style anything nasty, you know. But, you know, when I first read that, I think he's saying all kinds of prayers, which he is. But then I started thinking about it, you know, like, there might be some help if you're thinking about prayer and you think, okay, what am I asking for? Which is supplication, you know, I think you said connection with God, prayer. When he says prayers, it's like communion with God, like just enjoying your relationship with him. Intercession, standing in the gap on. On behalf of somebody else. And then Thanksgiving giving gratitude made for all people. So would you say that's an exhaustive list. Like, you know, he uses a lot of lists or is it more summary?

[Pastor Britt]

It's a pretty good list if you're going to be a prayer. Those are pretty good categories, I think when you, I think we as pastors try to create tools and things that help people remember and you try to create methods for people to apply to their life. Right. And then like everything, there's ditches, Right. And so sometimes when you hear a method like whatever the method is, Bible study method or prayer method, you can easily, especially if your brain naturally goes toward trying to do everything right, you're a bit of a perfectionist. You can get trapped in the method of like just trying to. Am I doing this first and this first according to Paul's list? And am I doing enough adoration and am I doing enough confession? And what I, what I felt like I heard you say tonight was, hey, get after it. Yeah, and let's start.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Get spitting, get out.

[Pastor Britt]

I think there's, there's like the notes. There's like, get after it and get through yourself.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

To so don't just. If you're, if all you ever do is pray and it's only ever about you, you're missing a huge blessing. You're missing a huge, you know, amount of. Amount of beauty and presence of God. So get after it and get through yourself and let's go.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And Jesus gives a good categorical model in what we call the Lord's Prayer, which is really a model prayer. Now we mess it up, same things. We just memorize it and say it wrote, but it is. It's like, let's, let's go. Our Father is very relational. Let's go. Very theo centric. Not meo centric for sure. There's places to ask for what you need in there. And it's spiritual warfare to pray for deliverance against the enemy. And I think I've said before, those are good categories to, to pray into. And I personally often, just word for word, pray the model prayer, pray the Lord's Prayer. It's kind of like a. I don't know. My prayer life can be like a diesel engine. Takes me a little time to warm up, but you know, get pretty cooking hot in there. And so I will. Often times I think I heard J.D. say this. You know, you want to. Guaranteed your words are heard in heaven. Start with words that originate in heaven. Pray some Bible verses back to the Lord. I think, I think that's a good encouragement too. But yeah, man spit's a good One, Yeah, for sure. I mean, it is man. Supplication. Pray for. Just ask.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And then connect, pay, pray, and then pray for some other people, and then let the real foundation just be gratitude.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

It's hard to go wrong.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah. There's lights and shadows to the method thing. Right. And methods can be really, really helpful or they can become a bit of a trap. But, like, I have a friend who. Who sets timers for each section, you know, just to make sure. Like, hey, because it's probably pretty easy to do supplication. Like, we got a lot of stuff we could ask for for ourselves. And so would you say maybe a good diagnostic would be to look at your prayer and say, how much of it is each one?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Well, I don't, you know, even. Is probably not the right thing, but just I. I think categories like this, whether it's the model prayer or this thing, I think there's a lot of people that have a hard time with supplication. They're like, I can't ask him for anything because we saw a video about Elizabeth having cancer. What am I going to ask for? And you don't. There's a part of the gospel you're not believing that he's a good dad and he wants you to bring your needs to him, you know, so some of these kinds of, like, that kind of instruction is good to have a robust prayer life instead of a obtuse prayer life, like, really weighted in one direction.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I mean, for sure. I think the Lord is completely into us, hallowing his name, but there's something missing in the relationship. If we don't. If we don't. If we can't just ask. I mean, even. It's funny. I've been talking to y' all about Reagan and all the things, you know, God's doing in her life, which are so great. But there's something that. It makes me nervous about the environment that I'm creating, because she's nervous to ask me for things that didn't. That aren't that. Like, I've told. I don't think. I don't know if I've shared it on here or not, but she texts me when she's like, dad, I need to talk to you face to face about what the Lord's calling me to. And my first instinct is, oh, no, she's going to be a missionary somewhere, and I'm not going to get to see her. And I'm half joking about that, but only half. You know, her big thing is she's got all these friends at our Ponte Vedra campus, and she wants to attend students over there next year. And I want her to be able to just have a conversation and ask me. I love that she reveres me as her father, but if all there was was reverence and there's no, like, I can just jump in your lap, too. There's something missing. There's something about that in our prayer life.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So if it's. If you've got one area that's really, really strong, like, if you're never praying for other people, there's a real problem, bro. You're selfish. If it's. If it's all about you and it's not Christ exalting there, it could be a problem. If it's only psalms and Christ exalting, and you never make it personal about you. I think your heavenly Father's like, what are you doing? Like, I want you. All of it. All the things.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And, you know, I don't know if prayer. I don't know if it's a thermostat or a thermometer. It might just reveal your relationship with the Lord. So paying attention to that might be good.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So a discipline, like. Well, one of the things I meant to say, but I didn't. This is about Reagan again. We're teaching her to drive, so it's very instructive right now. Like, when you're first learning to drive, there's a lot of instruction. Like, sit down. Here's how. Turn the car on. Remember, Put your foot on the brake, put on your seat belt, check your mirrors. When's the last time you thought about any of that? So what starts out with a lot of instruction over time just becomes intuitive. Do you even think about turning? It just kind of go. It just. I don't. You can't even. You ever pull up somewhere? I don't even know how I got here. I just. Right here I am.

[Pastor Britt]

Prayer.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

A really robust, sound prayer. Life began with lots of instruction. Make sure you kind of got all the things eventually. It's very intuitive. And. And all of. All of the, like, subjects that the Lord covers or that Paul covers will be in there intuitively. And that's kind of the goal because it's. It's. It's in a deep, abiding relationship.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

I heard Keller say. I may have shared this on here, but I heard Keller say recently to that to say I am a Christian is to say that I am a person who prays. I thought that's pretty good. That's true. And he also said that God is only as real to me as prayer is important to me.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, that's strong.

[Pastor Britt]

And that's a really weighty thought, even convicting at times that my prayers don't make God real. That said, my experience of God's realness is, is completely hinged on my commitment to prayer.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And I, I started determined with just confession. I am not by nature a really strong prayer. You know, what happened in my life in the last 12 years was the amount of responsibility. I mean, Paul says to Timothy, I entrust you. I, I, I was being entrusted with a lot of kingdom responsibility. And I remember, I felt like, because I would read these, I'd read these books about Calvin, Wesley, and Spurgeon, and you read about their prayer life. And I mean, they didn't have Netflix or Instagram, so they prayed a lot. And I just remember thinking, I feel like the amount of responsibility the Lord has given me is way outpacing my prayer life. That is what led to the amount of a big part of my, like, time in the woods situation, because it is just, it's an environmental help for me to lean into what I know is important, even if it's not, like, the first thing on my mind.

[Pastor Britt]

Yes. Interesting. With, especially with Spurgeon. Spurgeon and Wesley, if you study their lives, they were both, they were both suffering souls a little. Oh, yeah, yeah. They had a really dark side which.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Would lead you to pray. I mean, that's kind of as the deer pants for the water. There's a lot of panting in their life.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah. And there wasn't volumes and volumes of volumes of YouTube videos of, like, little Twitter clips on your mental health.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Right.

[Pastor Britt]

You know, they're, you know, they were, they really were struggled, and God blessed him and used them in huge ways.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

You know, what about what, what role does listening prayer have? Or, or even, like, prayer language? You know, Paul, Paul mentions that when he talks about prayer. I think sometimes we think a lot about what we say, you know, with. Like, sometimes prayer is synonymous with either me talking out loud to God or internally, I'm saying, but there's a big part of it that's listening or even that I don't understand. What would you say about that?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I think a significant part of your prayer life ought to be listening, and it's almost impossible to hear while you're talking. I mean, if you could, like, read my thoughts in the tree stand, I would say I spend very little time developing words around my heart's desire for supplication or intercession. Like, I'll say one out, one line about my. One of my kids. And then I don't know, I just sort of like sit in it and think about God and. But I don't bathe that thing in a bunch of words, you know?

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And then for direction of our church, I don't know, I'm just like, one Lord, it's yours, it's your flock. Ain't my flock. What do you want to do? And then we've talked about this a lot lately because we just rat wrote the 1010 life, you know, and then, I mean, I'm just sitting there and I have thoughts, so I jot them down and I share them with godly people and say, yeah, this, this lines up a lot of times too. The Lord leads me to texts. Not text, my phone, the Bible. So being rooted in God's word will help your prayer life like nothing else. Like there are many, many times. I mean, I think people have heard me talk about this before the whole 10, 10 life thing started. And I'm watching TV with the riots and Covid shutdown, and I'm praying through that, and then I get a thought, man, P.E. these people need a shepherd. So I did the 99 DeVos, remember that? I. And then I end up in Psalm 23 and John 10, and out of my time in John 10, which I was led to by praying and listening, the whole 10, 10 life thing comes out of it. You know what I mean? So I don't know how to dissect any of that.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Right.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So.

[Pastor Britt]

So in this charge, Paul said. Paul talks about praying for those in authority. And he says that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. And I think some of that is the result of, or a prescription in a healthy, robust prayer life that I think to your question, a lot of times the Bible speaks clearly about loud, obnoxious, kind of what I call riot praying. And you could have the gifts of certain prayer gifts or gifts that are naturally connected to prayer. But if those things aren't done in love, you know, you're just a clanging symbol. You know, it's kind of the, the way that Paul talks about it. And so I think the. The healthy, robust prayer life is one that is calmed, that is peaceful, that is rooted in a quiet life, that produces a quiet life, you know, And I'm not saying that there's not things worth painting the walls with, because there is. But the, the point of prayer is not Volume. The point of prayer is coming to that is. Is finding that place and ministering to the Lord. Mind you, that's a huge part of prayer, is ministering to the Lord.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Which is a weird. Those are Bible words you just said.

[Pastor Britt]

Totally.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But it's kind of a. It's like a. I don't know, it's kind of a weird. Those words land on me. Funny, even though they come from the scriptures that we would minister to the Lord, because I don't. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

I think there's something to standing, your posture, being standing and ministering before the Lord. I could get into a whole thing there. Maybe one day I will. That said, what ministers to the Lord's heart other than to exalt his name, not just with your words, but with your. From the inside out. And you're peaceful and quiet inside because you trust your dad, that. That blesses his heart, you know, for me to be at peace because my, my dad is the author of peace and my brother is the prince of peace, you know, so those are. That's all connected for sure, I would say.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And woe to the person that leverages prayer for things other than it was intended for. I mean, this is a hot take. But that prayer service that's all over the news now where that woman, crazy bishop, her prayer was really a rebuke of Trump. I mean, to, to, to try to leverage a platform. So I did, I have somebody from the church was like, what would Jesus do? That's what Jesus would do. And I was like, hold on. First of all, okay, you know she doesn't believe in Jesus, right? She does not believe that Jesus is the Christ, the second person of the Trinity. She does not believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. She does not believe that the Bible is authoritative, that Jesus was resurrected from the grave. Okay? I would have no problem looking at any president and praying for mercy. But to let your lead foot in what is supposed to be a prayer be a political, ideological charge. Bro, you want to talk about using the Lord's name in vain? Even if, I mean to call anybody to have mercy is no problem there. No problem there. But bro, that's the most phal stuff. But she's very soft spoken and sweet. So like, she's a hero to some and a heretic to others. But bro, she doesn't believe this word at all. I mean, any. Bro, I'm talking about the divinity of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, the sufficiency of the cross of Christ, the gospel of Christ. I'm talking about danger. Danger Will Robinson. She. People like, that is exactly what Paul is telling Timothy.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yes.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Get out of here. Get out here. So I say that because, I mean, what an example right now of what was supposed to be a position of prayer. And though the tone of it was quiet, it's very genteel. Dude. The heart of it was really malicious because the political ideologies were the authority over what God's word says about things. Not good, buddy.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

We watched, we watched a lot of this stuff this week at our house and both my kids were like, why didn't they ask Pastor Joby to pray? That would have been so much better.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

They had Franklin. He did good. He did good. And then the other thing too, man, don't ever let your prayer be a show. I mean, you know, like, that's what.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

I thought Jesus said. Don't heap up empty phrases to try to impress people. You know, I grew up pretty low church, non denominational, but I remember this one time there was a guy that I heard pray and he prayed like in King James.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Oh yeah.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

And I was just like, what is this? It was so odd. I couldn't believe. Like, why, why does he think that's good? You know, he had. But that's the kind of. I think. Can you imagine how much how must sound to God when we're just like trying to impress him?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Especially if that's not how he talks. Right. I worked on Sabbath church and there was this guy, he was like executive pastor. This is 1991. He was 90 then. Okay. And he would pray that.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

That.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But I'm telling you, if he, if he did a Bible study with him, he also. That was kind of his. I mean, he sort of. He turned it up a little bit. Like, like, I'm sure he doesn't wear a suit and tie every day, but he sure did to church. And so that was kind of his. It was still a version of his, the way he talked. So no problem, man. It's beautiful. It was intimidating to us because then we're like, I can't. If that's how you pray, I can't pray like that, you know. But yeah, you're right. So. And, and there's even sometimes where I think pastors are kind of trying to be funny in their prayer. I, I just be very careful with that, you know?

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And I'm not trying to judge somebody's prayer. But you know, I, I would just be very. I would, I would want to be quiet and, and reverent and. Yeah. There's A Christ exalting. And.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, my dad used to write prayer journals, and he would leave them out, and next to. He had one chair that he sat in to do his quiet times in, and he had these spiral bound notebooks, and there's. There are many of them. And he'd write a paragraph, sometimes a page, just depending on whatever God was doing, and he'd leave it out. And my brother and I always thought he was doing it by accident, and so we'd go and read it. Well, it turned out my. My dad was doing this on purpose so that we would read it. And it was really funny. If you ever get. One day, maybe we'll have my older brother on the podcast here, but we.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Boy, that would be a trick.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

The problem was those who listen would not be able to wait.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Who said.

[Pastor Britt]

Honestly, if they. If they watched, they'd be like, hold on. Yeah, we can switch seats. And they'd be like, who's where? Yeah, and that's funny. We love you, Jason. That said, amen. Your experience reading those prayer journals depended completely on which brother you were.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Very.

[Pastor Britt]

Like, my brother would go and read it, and he feels so encouraged and affirmed. My dad would be like, thank God for Jason and just what you're doing in his life. I'm so excited to see you.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

And you read like, oh.

[Pastor Britt]

And I'd read it, and it'd be like, dear God, please keep Ryan out.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Of prison, and may he come to his senses.

[Pastor Britt]

I don't understand this boy, and I don't know what I did wrong. And, you know.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

So.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, but I. I think about that, and I think about how simple it was. And my dad's handwriting was terrible. It was simple. And he never. He prayed with us, of course. We prayed every day.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

In our house.

[Pastor Britt]

That we were together, but it was never this loud, robust. Like he wasn't trying to prove his spiritual authority to us. But it was. It was just so kind and intentional and peaceful, but so impactful, you know?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But I do think I. I want to pray powerful prayers. I don't think you like whisper chains fall enough sometimes, too, you know, like, not to pick on any more denominations. But, dude, I need. When, like, if I got a real problem, I want me a charismatic prayer for me, not a Presby. I appreciate the Presby car ins and notes and Keller and all, but, dude, if it be your will, I want to. I want to. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. You know what I mean? I mean, I want some prayers that are, like, loosening up the. The demons that are keeping the archangels from getting to me. I mean, I want to pray some prayers of power, some real audacious. I'm believing in a big God. I, I think a great.

[Pastor Britt]

Well, if you don't believe you have authority over demons, right? If you don't believe that the same spirit that resurrected Christ from the dead, if you don't believe that you have been charged, commissioned, empowered, gifted to move mountains with a mustard seed of faith, then prayer is going to be, prayer is going to be powerless. But you know, it's the authority of the word of God and the empowering of the Holy Spirit that makes our prayers powerful. But we can step into those things. It's binding up the strongman. Do you believe you have the power of God inside you to bind up the strongman?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And volume doesn't equal power.

[Pastor Britt]

No.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But I think speaking of model prayers in the Bible, the first, first prayer meeting I think we have recorded is Acts 4. You know, and you want to, if you want to challenge, if you want to be stretched in your own prayer life, look at the context of what they're praying about. Peter and John fresh out of jail. And then look at their prayer. I think most of us would pray about God changing circumstances or changing laws or delivering us. And they pray sovereign Lord, then they pray Bible verses, then they pray the gospel and then, then they ask for something. And the thing they ask for is boldness, not a change in circumstances. Yeah, it is, it is a real, it's like, wow. And these are the people as close to Jesus's ministry, like second generation, you know, followers as you can get, some of them first generation too. But you know, this is like the, the earliest of early church.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

I think that about the prayers and the sermons in Acts, if you just look at those sections, you're just like, they were not doing it the way that we do it. Like they weren't just like, let me start with this funny story. It was just like, it was just.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Life, death, resurrection of Christ.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

God created this. This is the son of God. You killed him.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Let's repent. Repent.

[Pastor Britt]

Well, Paul's charged to Timothy. If you read through first and second Timothy, if you read through Titus, Acts, he. They did not live in a trigger sensitive society at all. They just, they lived in a society where I think the, the social discourse, both on the Greek side and the Jewish side was social discourse was intense. The way that they would debate topics, the way they would philosophize, if that's a word, the way that they would, you know, if you go to Israel today.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Oh yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

And you listen to how the Hasidic Jews talk to one another, you're like, my gosh, they're about to fight. Because, I mean, you know, Hebrew is a harsh language anyway, you listening? But it's just the, the tone of it, you know, is so you, you can't have soft, you couldn't have soft skin and have survived.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

With these cats. No doubt about it.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Well, he says pray for all people, but then specifically names kings and those in high positions and obviously a call to pray for our governmental leaders. And, and I, I'm, I'm fascinated by this when he says that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified. So you were talking earlier that, yeah, there is certainly a sense of inner peace and living a peaceful, quiet life, not an unhurried, unbusied person. But the king connection would make it seem like it's a societal piece.

[Pastor Britt]

It's both.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Right. So how does a Justin ordered society promote the ability to preach the gospel? And what does that say about preaching in chaotic zones of, you know, unjust and unpeaceful? You know what I mean? Does that make sense? Like, why do you think he points this out here?

[Pastor Britt]

Well, I think part of it was that your life was lived in very close proximity to the same people for decades and decades and decades and decades. And so it wasn't really until maybe you could argue, in the Roman Empire, some people traveled around because of their freedom to travel, but not middle class or poor people. They lived in a very, very closed circle. It wasn't really until the invention of the automobile that you would drive by a church to go to another church. You just went to the church in your neighborhood, you understand what I'm saying? And that the testimony of the Christian church in a pagan, godless world was not one, one that waged good warfare, a spiritual warfare, not one that was out picking fights or poking people in the eye or. So you look, in the first century, we've talked about this before, but in the first century, when the plagues happened or when riots broke out and people were being killed in the mass, it was the Christians that were going in to care for the sick and to care for the wounded. And they were doing that from a place of self sacrifice and peace. And so the charge of the commission of the Christian in culture is to demonstrate that Christlikeness and to put on his robes, which is the robes of humility and Philippians 2 and all the things. And so I think that he's saying Christian charge is fundamentally different than the, the Greek philosophies or that's part of what he's saying. It's different than the Greek philosophies or the, the loud arguing that you would even experience in the synagogues at times that that's not the way of Christ.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

God's design is peace, not chaos. The church will prevail and God is at work in any and everything. So wherever Satan lifts his head, you know, and tries to hammer Christians, dude, their faith goes deeper and deeper and the gospel spreads no matter what. But God's design for community is peace. I mean, there's no chaos in the garden, right? So all the chaos is, is fallout. So like you said before, multiple things can be true at the same time. So like in Iran right now, man, the gospel is flourishing like crazy, but the church can't do all the things the church is intended to do. Like how you going to do communion when you, when then you can't go to the grocery store and get bread and people are starving to death. Then it's like triage version of church. You're not really doing all. You can't greet one another with a holy kiss, right? And so the ideal is a peaceful and quiet society so that the church can do all the things. Public worship, private prayer, all the things, right? And then again, when the ideal is unrealized, grace abounds. So God's going to move, the church, going to prevail regardless of the culture. But God's ideal is peace and order. So when we pray for our leaders, we're praying that God would use them in the right way that would promote peace and order. So a part of what it means to vote for godly leaders are which leaders make the kind of decisions that lead to the most peace and order or the least peace and order even regardless of what those people believe. Now when you, I think when you're praying specifically for leaders, you pray the cross that either you praying that their sins would be paid for either by Jesus's blood on the cross or that they would be judged and they would pay for their sins. But that in the meantime where they're, when they are in that office, that they're making the kinds of decisions that lead to the prospering of human flourishing. And that doesn't. That comes through order and peace and laws and borders and all of these kinds of things that are biblical ideals of the Lord.

[Pastor Britt]

If Martin Luther, my favorite prayer resource ever written save the Bible was Martin Luther wrote a letter to his barber Called A Simple Way to Pray. It's what it's titled now. But his barber, his name was Master Peter. Ask him one day when he's sitting in the barber chair getting his monk haircut. You know, how do you pray?

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

How long would that possibly have taken to get that little bulk?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I don't know.

[Pastor Britt]

But I don't know. I don't. I don't have. I don't have many hair. Hair statistics, because I don't have many hairs. But the bar is Barbara's like, hey, write me a letter and. Or teach me how to pray. And so Martin Luther goes back and writes this letter and gives it, and then it gets grabbed and circulated and reprinted. It's called Simple Way to Pray, and it is fantastic. And it's through the Lord's Prayers teaching you how to pray through the Lord's Prayer, similar to what you're saying. And when he gets to the part where he starts talking about praying for your leaders and praying, thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. One of the fascinating things, if you think about it, with Martin Luther, was bro. Him and the Pope, they had a tough relationship. And Martin Luther is out there, literally alone on a vine, calling out the Pope for all kinds of heresies, thus sparks this Protestant Reformation. But there's something in his writings that I think is only the result of his commitment to pray for the Pope, to pray for the Pope's repentance, to pray for the Pope's awakening, that he writes to the Pope in a way that you can just tell there's something in this Martin Luther who, like, they're on opposite sides, but Martin Luther, there was something in there that loved that man. And there was a love and a submission that he wasn't trying to start a war. He was trying to bring reform to everyone. You know what I mean? And there's something to that. When you pray for somebody that you want God's best for them, you want repentance for them, you want salvation for them. I think that gets at the heart of love your enemies.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You know, I think I'm just making this up right now so it could all fall apart. But I think we pray for our leaders just like you're saying you don't pray about them. A lot of times. That's what. Like, when you disagree with somebody, that's what you do. You end up praying about them. God changed them to do things that I would rather them do. And then the other extreme, which a lot of conservative people need to pay attention to, and you don't pray to them. They are not the answer. They are not the answer. And I was at the inauguration and like I've, you know, I do the very mile road. There's two ditches, dude, and there's, There could be many, many people if you're not careful and you're in a ditch where you think a man is the answer. And the only answer is Jesus. The only answer is Jesus. And Jesus installs leaders for his own sake, there's no doubt about it. But you cannot get confused with that and think that your hope is in a person or a politic.

[Pastor Britt]

Amen.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

It makes me, it made me think also that Jesus for some reason decided to create this little miniature environment of peace and flourishing through healing and feeding so that he could preach. You know what I mean? So there is something to it. It can be distracting from hearing the message of the gospel. If you're starving or if you're in.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Pain, if you're only in triage, then it is a ministry. But it's hard, like it's hard to get to the. You can get a bunch of people saved. It's hard to make a lot of disciples if you're only in triage. And there's a lot to. You know what I'm saying, man.

[Pastor Britt]

When I used to travel in Africa a lot, I did a lot of pastor training. I did a lot of church plan, working with local churches, small, rural, dirt poor, we're talking mud floor, tin roof churches in the middle of nowhere. Only Bible believing church within 100km kind of thing, you know. And one of the things that they would advocate for early on was they were always asking us to establish feeding programs for the orphans and the widows, which by God's grace, we eventually were able to do. But there was a like kind of. I was trained in a certain philosophy on poverty alleviation that makes you slow to hand things out because you realize that it's better to teach a man to fish and you can reinforce poverty accidentally. And I'm sitting with a bunch of African pastors who are elders one day and we're having healthy dialogue about it. And they're, we need to do this, we need to do this, we need to do this. And it went from meet our need to pastor, we need to do this for the sake of the gospel. And I was like, okay, help me understand for the sake of the gospel. And one of the men just set up and he just said, hey, look, I'm just telling you, it is really hard for people to hear you when they're starving. And I was like, okay, fair enough. Feeding program it is. You know what I mean? And we got to work on it. But it was like that, that it clicked. And they were doing it from a very authentic place of, like, there are just certain physical needs that if those things aren't met, it is. It is almost impossible to hear anything else because of that kind of suffering. You know what I mean?

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

So is this. Is this a place where if it's taken too far, it turns into, like a social justice, an imbalance 100%.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Oh, yeah. That you think that the only role of the church is to feed the poor, that the role of the church is the gospel, and then the gospel has secondary implications, not the other way around.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Right?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah. Well, we're running out of time.

[Pastor Britt]

But what kind of kung fu crazy are you trying to do here? On question number seven, though, let's just be honest.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

What does it mean?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

What does this mean?

[Pastor Britt]

That God is talking about that next time.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

No, man.

[Pastor Britt]

What does it mean? That God is sovereign in salvation and that. And that he desires all people to be saved.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yep.

[Pastor Britt]

I have an answer. But I asked the question that he wrote, so.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah, that's what I think he just answered. Yes, that was his answer.

[Pastor Britt]

That's exactly right. Yes, he does. And he is.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

That's your answer.

[Pastor Britt]

That's absolutely the answer.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Great.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

I just know that they're. You know, maybe somebody new to Bible study would be confused by God desires all people everywhere to be saved if they've heard somebody say, what should be.

[Pastor Britt]

Confusing to us is when we try to pit half a verse against the other half a verse, or we try to pit something in God's character against something that God's word says. So those things are simultaneously true.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Right.

[Pastor Britt]

And they are usually exclusively true.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But I end up saying to people that we have these conversations about just use the words the Bible uses. So the reason I use words like election and predestination is because Ephesians 2 and Romans 3 and Romans 9, that's just the words they use. And the reason I say God wants you is because that's what Mark 3:13, and that's what this verse says, and that's what John 3:16 says. Now, I can get to a layer behind the question, and we can talk about how one puts their faith in God, but it is completely true that God is sovereign in salvation and he desires all people to be saved.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

It's hard to understand. Like, that's hard to understand. It is because God is God. And as God gets whatever he wants. Right. And so if you want, you know what I mean, that's the hard part about it is, is you have to think of it. I think it's maybe two sides of a coin of trying to understand the character and desires of God. Right. Like he gets a little bit into the will perfect, perfectly accomplished versus like the desires, will of God, you know, I mean, so it's, that's kind of what it is. It's. It's a brain breaker.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah. Theological language then gets created to describe those two things.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yes, yes.

[Pastor Britt]

Everything God does there is a greater glory.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

And those two words have helped me a lot over the years in trying to better understand God rightly, is that there's always a greater glory. And that, yes, while it's true, Deuteronomy 29, there are some secret things that belong to the Lord, there's a category of thing theologically that I, I'm just not going to be able to bend my mind around, you know, that said, it's not. Doesn't mean I shouldn't think on these things and consider and surrender to them. But there is a greater glory that God is always up to and including in salvation and in his desire for all people, you know, and so, so.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You can use other verses. Jesus says, you didn't choose me, I chose you. And Jesus looks at Jerusalem and expresses his desire. Oh, that I would like a hen, mother hen with his chicks would just put my wings around you.

[Pastor Britt]

He's crying, right? When he says that. I mean, the scripture says he's crying. We've interpreted.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, yeah, he does. So both of those things are simultaneously.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

What is a season? What, what season of your life has God grown you most in prayer?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, I don't want to say this out loud because I don't want to have to go through it again. You know what I mean?

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Well, you talked about it, right?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, it's always desperation, you know, whether it's like desperation for the heart of one of my children or somebody I love is sick or I'm sick or the feel an overwhelming weight of responsibility that I don't feel like I'm up for. So, I mean, preaching drives a whole heck of a ton of my prayer life, man. I mean, bro, you know, the number one fear on everybody's list is public speaking. And then you add on to that the, the responsibility of rightly carrying the word of God. And then you've got people that you love and care for. And you know what I mean, you got all these Things going on and you just get ready to get up there and you think, dude, I, oh my gosh, Lord, if you don't show up in a magnificent way, I am going be. This is going to go bad. So that, that drives me, but I don't. So I want to try to willfully choose to pray with a warfare mentality, not be forced into it.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You know, goes back a little bit.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

To your offense versus defense.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Right. Like when you're dependent to, to go out and do some stuff like it drives you.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I don't want him to have to drag me through the valley of the shadow of death in order for me to know he's with me.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Right.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I want to try to volunteer to like, get the witness.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And I, you know, I know that's not how it exactly works, but it might be a little bit of how it works.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

So what about you?

[Pastor Britt]

I'm working through it. I think I'm going to sit on it for a couple of weeks. I'm working through it. I've been thinking a little bit about. So when your, your testimony and even your confession tonight about. I could point to very specific seasons right now, but I'm working through.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You.

[Pastor Britt]

Know, where, where, where have I lacked in persistent prayer and why and what's gone on in my life that would keep me from a robust, healthy prayer life. And because I feel very lacking in this area regularly, sometimes I feel like I got it dialed in and I've got some measurables and other times, I don't know, sometimes I just. So I'm working through that. And by God's grace, you've asked me to preach in a few weeks. And the first verses is about prayer. And so I'm trying to work through that between here and there, and I'll share with us when I get there.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

First of all, good on you for not just feeling that you have to have an answer to every question. You know, it's a real danger. I, I would say that currently, right now in my life, I, I've talked about it in some meetings with you guys recently. God's got a real warm invitation out there to me, and it kind of goes something like this. It's like, you remember how hard you were praying for direction in the 1010 life. This is kind of my little dialogue with God. It's all in my head. And he's like, see, you sought me and I led the church and look at the fruit of it, you know, like you've, you've got to see, like A cycle of it. See how faithful I am? So why wouldn't you just. Why wouldn't that just be the normal pattern of your life? Are you just going to wait to have that kind of intense prayer times when it's hundreds of millions of dollars in multi campuses online and 20,000 people? Or why don't you just. Why don't, why don't you make that the normal rhythm of seek me, find me, I'm faithful, I'm not going to confuse you. Yeah, there's a real. As I've reflected on the last two years of that, it's been a. That's kind of been this first time I've been able to, like, put words to it. Really good.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Is interesting to think about. Like, what does it look like to be mature in prayer, as we've said? Like, it might not mean that you say a lot of stuff or, or, you know what I mean? Like, because I've certainly experienced very sweet times of prayer that were short.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

You know what I mean?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And so it's more attention and affection.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Right. It's not like. It's not like, oh, I'm so mature because I pray for 17 hours a day unnecessarily.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I tell you about Coach Lee. I think I've told you this before. So when I was a counselor at camp and I would get up extra early to go fishing, I did this one time, I get up to go fishing early. We had this little bass lake. And I go by and his lights on. I was gonna go see if he wanted to come. And he is, dude, cement floor, old school, wire cot. That's where you'd sleep all summer, too. Think about that. And he's just on his bare knees by his bed, like, just praying. And I'm about to knock and I'm like, okay, he's praying. So I wait for a minute and I wait. And then I'm like, I'm going fishing. So I go fishing for like 50 minutes or something. And then I come back and I mean, I slayed him, dude. And I was going to tell him, dude, the bite is on. And I go back and I look in that brother's just still right there 50 minutes later. And I'm like. And then I remember, I was like, that's what I'm gonna do. So I get up like two days later and I say, I mean, my cop, my little kids are staying in the thing, and I get down next to it and I'm like, all right, dear God. And I prayed. It's I mean, every word I could think of. And bro, it's like three minutes, I'm done. I'm like, all right, all right, I'm out, right?

[Pastor Britt]

You ever.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I remember just being, praying for people. I'm the worst.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, yeah, welcome to it, my friends. But have you ever been praying for people and it's like there's like a little prayer gathering going on and you're like, all right. And you kneel down, pray for them, but you're on a concrete floor and.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Then they put your hand on your shoulder.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, or, yeah, or you're just like, you're on your knees on a concrete floor and after about 120 seconds you're like, I need the Holy Spirit of God to transcend me to another place because my knees are killing me. You know, somebody hand me a pillow.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Dude, I, I had the knees of like a 90 year old person, just bone on concrete.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You know, you're just doing, you're just like, wow that. My ordination had me kneel on this wood floor in this old church and like a hundred people came and laid the full. Because you're, you know, you're kneeled down and they like, these old fat Southern Baptists are like leaning their full weight of their body on mine with a coffee breath in my ear talking about Jesus. I can't remember what one word of any prayer, bro. I remember my knees bleed.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

I'mma stand up real quick.

[Pastor Britt]

Me and Pastor Bo, we, we used to work at camps together way back in the day. And one of the things that we would do is that we would have compassion ldp, like college grad college students. Compassion students would come over from Uganda or Kenya and they would travel with us all summer and they would give testimony at all these camps trying to get more kids sponsored, right? But they used to be with us all summer. And so I had this, this 20 something year old college guy, Dennis was his name, Dennis Katongle. And he grew up just abject poverty, the whole thing, and came over with a suitcase and he was going to be here for 10 or 11 weeks. He had one pair of socks, one pair of underwear, two shirts and a pair of pants. And that's what. So we were able to bless him and love him. This guy fasted, I kid you not. He fasted four days a week in the dead summer in the Southeast. Fasted four days a week. This was just the way he was trained. That's the way he lived. And we would walk into the room, like to the hotel rooms we'd be staying at. And he would have himself pinned in that little corner between the edge of your if you're like in a double bed, two double bed room or whatever, he would pin himself in between the corner and the wall uncomfortable so that he wouldn't fall asleep so that he could stay in fervent prayer. That's how he'd posture himself. And I, I would be like, whoa, go get some nachos.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But one of the reasons you need to go on a mission trip one of the reasons you need to go on a mission trip is to have what you think a prayer life is completely stretched, no doubt by some people. They wake up every day painting for the presence of God because they need him to survive another day.

[Podcast Host or Co-host]

Yeah. Amen. Well, I think that's all we got. Any closing thoughts? And let's definitely pray. I was talking about prayer.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

God, we. We so take it for granted that we even get to pray and that we get to call you our Father and hallowed be your name. And, and God, that you would invite us into making this earth be more like your kingdom through the things that you've called us to do as a people. And that you would bathe us in your forgiveness and, and may that flow through us onto other people. And God, you're such a good dad that we can ask for daily bread and you gladly will provide it. And so, Lord, we. We just pray that you would help us by the prompting of the spirit to be a real people of prayer. We pray it in Jesus name. Amen. Thank you for listening to the podcast. The end you nailed.