What Does It Mean To Be Truly Free? - S23E4

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin

Episode: What Does It Mean To Be Truly Free? (S23E4)
Date: October 6, 2025
Host: Pastor Joby Martin
Guests: Panel includes pastors/worship leaders from Church of Eleven22
Main Focus: Exploring the nature of true freedom in Christ, the war between flesh and spirit as seen in Romans 7-8, and how worship, honesty, and grace intersect for the Christian life—using the hymn "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing" and deep discussion of biblical metaphors.

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Episode Overview

This episode takes a heartfelt and honest journey into the meaning of true freedom as described by Paul in Romans, especially the tension in Romans 7-8. Pastor Joby and guests use the classic hymn "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing" as a lyrical and theological framework, exploring metaphors of blessing, spiritual thirst, wandering, tuning, and grace. They candidly discuss sanctification, personal struggles with sin, the role of honest confession, and how gospel-rooted worship shapes real Christian freedom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Freedom, Worship, and Gratitude

• The team reflects on the themes of Romans and the rich metaphors in "Come Thou Fount," noting how worship and gratitude are inseparable.

  • “You basically cannot separate gratitude and worship. But I don’t think gratitude comes naturally. I think entitlement is the natural bent of the human heart.” — Pastor Joby Martin [02:19]

• God as “the Fount of Every Blessing” is contrasted with modern, self-reliant thinking; blessings flow not from within or from works but from God alone.

  • Discussion of how, biblically, water and blessing were precious—reminding listeners not to take the spiritual “fountain” for granted [06:24].

2. Metaphor: Tuning the Heart

• They riff on the hymn line “Tune my heart to sing Thy grace,” using the analogy of tuning instruments to an absolute standard.

  • “I’m just guessing, the chances of a piano or a bow accidentally finding itself in tune is not possible.” — Joby Martin [11:21]

• Conversation delves into how “tuning” to God’s truth means active, continual, intentional adjustment, not default or accident, especially as the world’s influences pull believers out of spiritual alignment.

  • “Letting the Holy Spirit of God, you know, turn the knobs a little bit and get you back where you need to be.” [14:11]

3. Romans 7, Struggle, and Vulnerability

• Authentic admission of ongoing sin struggles is highlighted as a key part of Christian maturity.

  • “I preach the guts out of my own guts. I mean, that’s what I do... That the song means ten times as much to me now knowing that...his testimony is that even later in life he was still prone to wander from the God he loves.” — Joby Martin [05:59]
  • “It was helpful to me when I finally realized that the conviction of sin and the struggle of sin is more evidence of the Spirit of God at work in me than the things I ever got right.” — Joby Martin [17:49]

• They critique church cultures where vulnerability is rare and leaders model only victory, confusing congregants who experience struggle.

  • “It made me feel like I might not actually be a Christian for a long time because I never heard anybody say they struggled…” [15:46]

4. Legalism and Holiness – How Much Is Too Much?

• Extensive dialogue about legalism as a personal discipline vs. an imposed requirement.
  • “There are some things in your life you should be a legalist about...Legalism is when I apply what is beneficial to me as a necessity to you and measure your salvation based on what might be beneficial to my sanctification.” — Joby Martin [29:14, 30:24]
  • “The struggle happens in the, you know, moments leading up to the decision point, right?” [26:25]

5. Joy, Discipline, and the End of Means

• The purpose of discipline is unpacked—not to earn God’s favor but to experience joy and fruit. Using illustrations of athletics and music:
  • “The means become the end.” — Panelist [34:07]
  • “The white-knuckle pursuit of obedience for obedience sake will just reveal your humanity…Abiding in Christ, you’ll find victories in areas of your life you never dreamed you could have victory in.” — Joby Martin [49:29]

6. True Freedom = Slavery to Christ?

• Paradox of true freedom found in full surrender and loving obedience to Christ. They give practical, personal, and biblical examples:
  • “If you want to be the freest man ever, become a slave to Christ and you will be completely set free.” — Joby Martin [51:22]
  • Personal testimonies about how what outsiders see as “restriction” is actually the source of deepest joy (e.g., in marriage or Christian disciplines) [54:17–56:58].

7. Evangelism, Brokenness, and the Search for Meaning

• Candid stories of sharing Christ with others—highlighting that brokenness (personal failure, hitting bottom) often makes people most open to Jesus.

  • “The best question I ever ask is, so how’s that working for you?” [41:02]

• Romans 1 and 10 are discussed: general revelation points all to God, but only the gospel saves; people are “tuning” their lives to some standard, inevitably confronted with Jesus.

  • “We all tune our life to something. Don’t we all agree there’s good and bad. Okay. As compared to what? That’s where [Paul] starts.” [43:10]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Grace and Struggle:

  • “That the conviction of sin and the struggle of sin is more evidence of the spirit of God at work in me than the things I ever got right.” — Joby Martin [17:49]

• On Legalism:

  • “There’s almost no such thing as personal legalism...Legalism is a real gift if you only apply it to you.” — Joby Martin [28:15]

• On Worship/Abiding:

  • “So man getting in front of this Word and letting...the Holy Spirit of God, you know, turn the knobs a little bit and get you back where you need to be.” [14:11]

• On Vulnerability:

  • “My favorite is Jim Bergen because he leads with a limp, man. He’s like, anybody else on the struggle bus. Me too. And for real, you know.” — Joby Martin [19:25]

• On Living Water (Jeremiah 2):

  • “People have forsaken me, the fountain of living water. And then they’ve dug for themselves broken cisterns that can’t hold water.” [62:43]

• On Freedom in Christ:

  • “You’re like a thirsty man complaining of giving up thirst for a drink of water. It doesn’t make any sense. Trust me, this is better than what you think you’re giving up. It’s actually the source of freedom…” — Joby Martin [54:17]

• On Pastoral/Eternal Joy:

  • “I have no greater joy than to hear my children are walking in the truth. Think about who wrote that. That dude ate the last supper with Jesus… and yet the first thing that comes to his mind… is ‘I hear my kids are walking in truth.’” — Joby Martin (regarding 3 John 4) [60:32]

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Important Timestamps

• Discussing "Come Thou Fount" & Worship [01:18–04:26]
• Water and the Biblical Landscape [06:24–10:00]
• Tuning the Heart Metaphor [10:04–14:36]
• Romans 7, Struggle, and Church Honesty [14:58–19:25]
• Legalism & Personal Discipline vs. Corporate Standards [28:15–31:45]
• Means, Joy, Discipline [33:50–34:37]
• On Freedom = Slavery to Christ [51:22–54:17]
• Testimonies about True Joy in Christ [54:17–57:32]
• Living Water & Wandering Sheep [62:43–64:14]

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Conclusion

Tone:
The episode is conversational, vulnerable, and rich with scriptural references, practical wisdom, and “real talk” about the struggles and joys of Christian living. Joby Martin and the team model a grace-filled and highly relatable style, inviting listeners not to hide struggles and to seek honest community, sanctifying disciplines, and gladly-surrendered life in Christ.

Core Takeaway:
True freedom comes not from the absence of restraint, but from being joyfully “bound” to Christ—honestly admitting our need, regularly “re-tuning” our hearts, and celebrating the grace that pursues us even when we wander.

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Recommended For:
Anyone wrestling with questions of faith, authenticity, sanctification, legalism, or freedom—especially Christians seeking more honest community and deeper roots in both gospel grace and spiritual discipline.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in.

[B]

Well, we get to talk about worship and we get to talk about Romans, so we're gonna have a great time.

[C]

Let's go.

[B]

Also, big week, Pastor Joby, your book is releasing.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

The day after this podcast comes out. So congratulations.

[C]

Wow, man.

[B]

Book number four.

[C]

Yep. Stand firm and act like men.

[B]

I've heard it's probably going to be New York Times bestseller. That's what I've heard.

[C]

So I doubt it if the libs.

[B]

Would actually put it on there.

[C]

You know, they won't. I've been scrubbed twice, at least for sure.

[D]

Really?

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I know a guy. I won't say his name, but he wrote a book and they released the same day and Grace train outsold it 3x and he was number four on New York Time. Bestseller. Yeah. But it didn't say anything about sex and sexuality, and Grace Train did. So. Yeah, there's an ideology that is not acceptable.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I don't care.

[B]

I think it's gonna be great, though.

[C]

I did not write it for what the New York Times thinks about.

[D]

That's probably good.

[B]

Yeah, it's the right. The right move. Well, we're talking about. Come now fout a song that we love.

[C]

Love.

[B]

And we were just saying a minute ago. I was saying a minute ago that it's. It's got so much metaphor, so much imagery. And so I want to talk about several of those pictures that are in here. The first one, obviously, the first line, come thou fount of every blessing. And you can sort of linger on it for a while. Right?

[D]

For sure.

[B]

Like, okay, so God's the fountain of all blessing. And you're saying, come, Come and do some. Do some stuff for me. What. What imagery does. What was that imagery conjure up for you? The fountain of blessing.

[C]

Well, let's see how good a listeners we were to Pastor Britt's sermon last week. Okay. He had four. Whatever qualities of great worship. He had about four words. Christ exalting, God centered, war making or war making worship.

[D]

Generational.

[C]

One was generational.

[B]

Personal.

[C]

Personal sacrifice. Surrendered grateful. And one was grateful. And you. You basically cannot separate gratitude and worship. But I don't think gratitude comes naturally. I think entitlement is the natural bent of the human heart. And. And so Robert Robinson is saying Lord, I need you to tune my heart, to understand the reality that every good and perfect gift comes from you. And then the right tuning of that is that I'm going to join with what the angels are doing right now there and forever. They're singing of your grace.

[D]

Yeah, man. When I think about God, the metaphor of God as a. As a. As a ever flowing fountain of blessing. I read a quote in a book, you know, you read books and the authors I really like to read, they have quotes from other great thinkers at the beginning of the chapters. And this quote was about. It was a. I almost say it was Chardine.

[C]

Is that.

[D]

You know that name?

[B]

I do not.

[D]

A R D I N. I don't know. Which makes it even cooler, this quote, even cooler. But it was about how there is no science behind consciousness. Where it comes from. People have no idea. The brightest minds among us have no idea where this comes from. Where our ability to. It comes from somewhere. Where does it come from? And when I think about God as the fount of every blessing, I think of him like this is ex nihilio. He's creating things out of nothing. He's the only one who is like the eternal source of love or know what I mean? And he's just constantly. He's just constantly pouring forth himself, you know, day to day, forth pours out speech. Night to night reveals knowledge. There is no language where this isn't heard. And he's just constantly doing that. And he invites us into that to partake in that. He's the originator of it. And we kind of like we're invited into the dance, you know.

[C]

Yeah, there's a lot of phrases there like that. Streams of mercy never ceasing. I think a lot of us, I mean, I know you grew up charismatic and all that, but there's a lot.

[D]

Of dancing in the river where I came from.

[C]

A lot of dancing in the river. The mercy to like the bab. The Baptist world was more like, yeah, mercy will get you into heaven, but then. But then you're done. Like that was that mercy was just for that salvation moment. But there's not a lot, a lot of mercy coming after that. It's not streams of mercy that never cease, you know, Which I think leads to prone to wonder. Even in that final quote that I shared with the writer of this hymn. He says, I would trade the whole world if I could for that feeling. So he wasn't fettered to the grace of God and the goodness of God. He was still kind of pursuing what he Felt about the goodness and grace of God, which is, you can't be fettered to because your feelings are all over the place.

[D]

Really. Had you ever heard that before? That, what he said at the end? I had never heard that.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And everything in me as a songwriter because, you know, I mean, it's an interesting craft.

[C]

Don't you feel like when you re. Read it, he's trying so hard to tell his soul. He's, it's, it's. He's. He writes. He's writing his own lights on his dashboard, you know?

[D]

Yes.

[C]

I mean, you, you know, my. I preach the guts out of my own guts. I mean, that's what I do.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and that's what he's doing. That the song means ten times as much to me now knowing that. That he. He was. His testimony is that even later in life he was still prone to wonder from the God he loves. Wow. And he wanted to raise an Ebenezer like, I. I want those rocks of remembrance. You know, it's true.

[D]

So I'd never heard that, man. I was glad that you said it. It was convicting.

[B]

A really fascinating study is when you understand that these people in the Bible lived in a very dry climate. And that water, like, the importance of water to them, like the rain that would come. And so I think that sometimes that's lost on us because we have indoor plumbing. But when, when we think about a fountain, you know, we've been to. We've all been to Israel and there's.

[C]

This brought to you by.

[D]

There you go, buddy.

[C]

Cgc.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Water treatment and plumbing.

[D]

These people are awesome.

[C]

We just put this in our house.

[D]

I know. We did, too.

[B]

Nice.

[C]

He warned me about spring water. So now from the stage, I was like, give me your water. I'll drink that.

[D]

You're ruined for the rest of your life.

[B]

I don't want to think about what's in my water now.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

But should.

[B]

Hey, listen, here's the number to call.

[C]

If you want to, when you go.

[B]

In, not have to think about it or their. Their advertisements say your water is going to be filtered. Don't be the filter.

[C]

Oh, yeah. What a great advertisement.

[B]

How to preach.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

So you go to Israel and, And the different oasis, you know, and Getty is one of those. And a big part of it is this source of water. And so when you think about that, if you try to put yourself in a position where you. Obviously, we all need water, your animals need water. But if, if it wasn't so easy to get as. As if just like turning on your faucet, you know, when you think about him being the fountain, him being the stream, it's like you've preached before on the panting for streams of water, you.

[D]

Know, it's like that though, man. There's so much crazy. The, the Holy Land deal is crazy because everything feels like a metaphor there. Like, you know, like even Jude, you know, you're talking about Angetti. Well, right on the corner is a Dead Sea, which is not living water, but it's there and it's just sort of stagnant, you know. And then there's the Jordan river that sort of.

[C]

And it's all inputs, no outputs. Right. Just the, the geography of that will teach.

[D]

And you. We've gone up, you know, we've all gone up and been at the, the, you know, the head of the Jordan river, up where Caesarea Philippi is.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And it's like the most lush green. Like you just kind of want to hang out and. And you realize that this, this is the source of the Jordan river that kind of comes down through, kind of floats past Jerusalem. And honestly you've. You've said this. It's like one of the most fertile valleys in the world. There's a reason why people have like fought over this land for a long time. Because it's awesome.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

You can grow anything there because it's by this like beautiful valley fed stream, you know. And anyway, it's a very blessed place.

[C]

Remember one time I was there and you can see over the Jordan and it's just desert over there and you're just in a. It's just palm trees and dates and date farms and.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And then I'm asking our Hebrew God, I'm like, how come everything grows over here? I mean, what's the difference between here and. He's like, this is the promised land.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

God bless this. I was like. I was looking for more like a ph or a. You know what I mean?

[D]

Familiar with science. Yeah.

[C]

He was like, God said this was going to be the land. Florida milk, honey. Not there. I was like, yes, sir. I read that.

[B]

Other side note. Can't remember if I've said this before, but the cool thing about the land flowing with milk and honey is that neither one of those things are like naturally occurring. So the promised land is a place for you to cultivate.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

You know, cuz the honey.

[D]

Wow, dude, that's a mic drop.

[C]

That is it.

[B]

The honey is. Is actually probably date syrup, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Not. Not be honey. Okay. So. So here's another metaphor.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Tune my heart.

[C]

Yeah. So to sing thy praise, to sing that our heart is tuned to this world. I mean.

[B]

Think about, like, a piano. Tuning a piano.

[C]

Now you lost me. Tell me more, boys.

[B]

Tuning piano or tuning a bow string? Okay, okay, you're there.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

So let's give a little. We've had some product placement here. Let's talk about Matt McPherson.

[C]

Matt McPherson, guitars and bows.

[D]

This is it.

[C]

This is it.

[D]

This is the podcast.

[C]

Matthews and McPherson.

[B]

Yeah, but okay, if. If tension is off or if there's a flaw.

[D]

Have you ever tried to tune a piano by yourself?

[B]

Never.

[D]

Everything is those guys that do that. I mean, it's like sort of a. Kind of a lost art. But the guys that do that, like that study a lot, and they have to print us a lot and all that kind of stuff because everything is interdependent on the other thing. So if you like, if. If you try to get into it, you're like, man, this. This one string is off. I'm gonna. I don't want to call the guy. It's going to be 180, whatever. You know what I mean? And then you go and do it. Then the. This thing down here is off. And the whole thing is. It's just.

[B]

You can crack the. You can crack the thing.

[D]

Yeah. You don't.

[C]

And I'm just guessing. The chances of a piano or a bow accidentally finding itself in tune is not possible.

[D]

No, it's not going to happen.

[B]

The elements of life, the change in the environment is going to cause it to go out of tune.

[C]

So you've actually got to fight against everything in this world.

[D]

You also have a instrument for. For Western tonality. We tune everything to a 440. There's a lot of conspiracy theories about this. We tune everything to a 440. The pitch A is 440 hertz. And so they. They have us. This is a Bible analogy. This is a. This is an absolute truth analogy. So, like, they have this thing that resonates at a certain frequency, and they pull everything centered in relationship to that frequency. Everything is tuned around a 440. And if they can't get that right, then everything independent from that is going to be off. In fact, there's a brilliant story about our piano, which maybe I'll get an opportunity to tell later, but some older pianos, they're so old that they can't bring them up to that pitch, so they have to tune them relative to itself at a lower pitch because the strings can't hold the tension. So the whole thing just drops down. It'd be like, you know, like all. All that. Well, all ships rise with the tide or what's that phrase? It's like. It's like the opposite of that. So we're just gonna settle for a lower thing and just make sure it's in pitch with itself. That'll preach.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And you can for a second get it sounded. You can just. With the guitar as well.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You could say, well, let me. Let me tune it relative to itself. And it will. It'll make. It'll make some music. But then if I go back against another perfect standard, you'll immediately hear what actually happens.

[D]

This is great. What actually happens is the guitar is designed to resonate at this. The body of the guitar is designed to resonate pristinely at this pitch. So if you drop. If you tune a guitar relative. This is so nerdy. But if you drop. If you tune a guitar relative to itself down to like a step or something like that, you can play in tune and everything will be a step lower. But if you tune that thing up to where it is supposed to be, the body of the guitar will resonate and open up and it'll be a lot more vibrant, and that's the way those instruments are made.

[C]

So one of the things I said about worship is tuning our heart to the truth that God is worth it, you know?

[B]

Yeah. Just like. Just like it's a. Like a tuning fork or something like that that. That says this is the. This is the pure tone. And then you bring the instrument to it, you know, that's why I love that lot. Tune my heart to sing your praise. So man getting in front of this word and letting. Letting this holy spirit of God, you know, turn the knobs a little bit and get you back where you need to be.

[D]

That's great.

[B]

So we. Pastor Joby, you made the connection between what's going on in this hymn in Romans 7. And so based on we. We totally nerded out on some music stuff here. But how. How would you frame Paul's struggle with that metaphor of tuning?

[C]

Yeah, that his new redeemed nature and his indwelling sin or at war against one another. And so his life experience is he has godly wants and desires simultaneous to fleshly disobedience. And he. And he can't resolve these things, you know, And I think. I think it's a cop out to say, well, when he's talking about being a slave to sin, he's talking about the pre Christian and, you know, I, I, I think that, I think that's one of the biggest problems in the church is the, the leadership that isn't willing to admit that the struggle is real, man.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

I think it made me feel like I might not actually be a Christian for a long time because I never heard anybody say they struggled or the struggles that they were have. Did it even sound like struggles? I was like, I don't even think that's a sin. I think that's just like. Yeah, not quite perfect.

[B]

You know, I remember when I was younger, we were at church and the guy was preaching and it was a perfect tee up to really be vulnerable. And he's like, and it's like, you know, you're driving by the dealership and you just really want a new car.

[C]

I was like, is that bad?

[B]

Come on, dude. A new car?

[C]

Like, Right, like that.

[B]

It just felt so unrelatable to me, you know? Like.

[C]

Right. Like, and you're, you're just trying to not look at porn.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

Right. So you can look at a new car and it may or may not be sin. Right? Right. You can't look at porn. Can it not be sin? Right. That's, that's what I mean, you know? Or like, I just got in a fist fight four days ago, you know, and I'm like, I might not be a Christian. And, and I, I could not. There's, I never, Honestly, to this day, I have a really hard time finding preachers like that show any vulnerability whatsoever, show any sign of Romans chapter 7 in their own life.

[D]

Why do you think that is?

[C]

I mean, I was literally taught in seminary that they're like, there's a differentiation between shepherd and sheep. And what you're trying to do is be a model of, like, what it means to walk in a manner worthy of the gospel. I don't, I think what that means is, is that your life is screaming that you need a savior, that you're. I, Dude, I am not giving myself over to sin. I don't think that, like, that it is a struggle. Like, it was so helpful to me when I finally realized that the conviction of sin and the struggle of sin is more evidence of the spirit of God at work in me than the things I ever got right.

[D]

Yeah, this is kind of like the MacArthur thing that you talked.

[C]

Dude, I loved. I don't do a lot of MacArthur quotes.

[D]

Yeah, I know.

[C]

But, gosh, that was great. He said it was the, it was the week he died. And there's just. My algorithm was full of MacArthur quotes.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And he said it was like, it wasn't even. He was being interviewed on, like, some news show or something. And he's like, the thing about maturing your faith is you'll sin less, which I totally agree with. Right. Like, we're being sanctified, so there's. Hopefully you don't have all the same struggles. You got some victories in your life, right?

[D]

Yep.

[C]

All right. And you'll feel worse. I mean, I used to think if I just wasn't actually saying the cuss words, then there's no way that I'm sinning now. I'm deeply convicted. If I'm just quick to speak. Like, I should not have said too much.

[D]

What's, what's interesting about what you said about, like, it's hard for me to find preachers is that you could make an argument that. That thing, the. The. The lack of attentiveness or verbalization of the struggle, which maybe inside of them, the motivation of that is to create a sense of, I don't know, like, dependability or something. I don't know.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

It's actually the thing that alienates people from actually discovering their, like. Like from the reality of God's grace, meeting them where they're at, because they can't relate.

[C]

Right. So one of my. I mean, you know, my favorite is Jim Bergen because he leads with a limp, man. He's like, anybody else on the struggle bus. Me too. And for real, you know, so anyway, and a lot of. A lot of guys, some guys do, but it is not the norm. I think the norm is what will people think if you act like you don't have it all together, Pastor? And I'm like, isn't that the point of the gospel, that I don't bring merit? I also don't. I mean, we should for sure celebrate the. The work of the spirit in our lives, for sure. But that's in both the victory and the conviction.

[D]

Yeah. You know, I grew up in a. In a holiness kind of a hole.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And it's funny, man. I mean, there's. It's such a. It's a real thing. Like, the pull towards holiness is a real thing. It's presence in the life of the believer is a real thing. I mean, it's. It's there, man. It's for sure. And, And. And so it's interesting how you can get things. I don't know, like, what is the means and what is the end? Where does it start? Does it start with you and your activity? Does it start with Reality, you know what I mean?

[C]

Yeah. That's rich young ruler.

[D]

Yeah. Right.

[C]

And the one thing, his one thing was money. But there's a bunch of church people, man, and their one thing is their morality.

[D]

Do you think that he was really talking about his money, though?

[C]

Like, it doesn't matter what the thing is? Yeah, he's just saying you. There's something. And here's what I was trying to. I don't have like a good tweetable phrase here, but when Paul says, who will deliver me from this body of death? You love somebody that will deliver you. The best thing I could think of is you don't love a substitute teacher. That just gives you your grade. And the rich young ruler is like, give me what I've earned. And he went away sad. He did not love Jesus as a savior because he didn't need him.

[D]

He went away sad with the same invitation that Peter got.

[C]

Right?

[D]

And people know him as the rich young ruler who is sad.

[C]

So the. In actuality, Jesus is the rich young ruler who was willing to sell it all for the sake of that guy. And then in doing so, Jesus has the fullness of joy and is lifted up. And that is what he's offering to the rich young ruler. And the thing that hinders the rich young ruler is he thought he brought merit. And you don't love somebody that gives you credit for what you've earned. That's what they owe you.

[D]

I was.

[C]

That's not grace.

[D]

I'm reading through the. I had a thought. I'm reading through the psalms, Praying through the psalms. I mean, have this, this pastor I really love who wrote this, like daily prayer. Well, he probably didn't write it. Some editor grabbed it and put it together. But it's awesome. And I'm in 51 right now, so. 51 is a penitent psalm. You know, this is David after the episode with Bathsheba and all that kind of stuff. There's a. At the end of the last stanza that breaks it down in verses daily. And you just kind of pray through it, and it's great. A broken and trite spirit. Some, some. Some translations say you have net you have yet to deny. Think about that. I think a lot in my life, Vinky, you've done this too. You do this all the time. I've heard preachers say preparing a sermon is 10% and preparing yourself to preach a sermon. You know, so we do this a lot. Right? You're. You're constantly thinking about just the state of your heart and, you know, who can ascend the hill and all this stuff. It's really, really real. David says that the thing that God has yet to deny is brokenness.

[C]

Right.

[D]

The thing that he. He has in all of history of humanity, the thing that he has yet to deny is a broken and contrite spirit and in worship in the presence of God. So the thing that he. He doesn't want for me. He. He doesn't. It's not that he wants me to be unprepared, but he doesn't necessarily want my preparedness. What he wants is my honesty with myself and with him over where I'm actually at. And he wants me to bring that to him. And then he looks at it and.

[C]

Says, and you don't get the tower. In my opinion, you don't get the tower of the great eight without the depths of the foundation of Paul's Wrestle in 7 that diagnoses what a wretched man am I and then gives the right cure. The cure is the right question. Not what must I do, but who? And then I. And it's like all of chapter eight is the answer to the who with a big fat ending. And who's going to separate? What's going to separate? There's nothing that's going to separate. Cuz all of it shifts to. He's saying I'm prone to wonder. He's saying I bring no merit to the equation. He's saying the only thing I offered here was the sin that required a savior. And then all of eight is about what a savior we have.

[D]

The sheep thing was awesome, by the way. I love the sheep jumping around.

[C]

Especially that one because he jumped so high. Got him.

[B]

Well, to. To quote another verse from Psalm 51 that always haunts me. You desire truth in the inward. In the inward being.

[C]

Don't. Didn't. Isn't there a lot of church? It's like if you. The reality of it would be that kind of. The experience of it would be. You desire obedience in the external appearance.

[D]

Right. Wow.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you say pastor job like you're not free unless you can be honest. And even recently like how honest are you willing to be? I mean like go to somebody and say I sinned or.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like I'm another thing.

[C]

Nobody ever temptation, nobody ever sins anymore. They just struggle.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I'm just struggling with lust. I think you're looking at porn. That's called a sin.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So it'd be better if you just say it. The struggle is evidence that you're fighting. Because I think I heard Kyle, say it the first time. He's like, are you struggling? Because I think if you were struggling, I thought you're not struggling. You have just given yourself over it to it, and you feel bad now. That's not a struggle is. Guys, I set this stuff up on my phone. I've called my accountability partner. Like, let me give you all the struggle that I am asking God to help me overcome this end. I memorized these verses in three different translations. That struggle.

[B]

The struggle happens in the, you know, moments leading up to the decision point. Right?

[C]

Yeah. The struggle is not, I feel bad now that I've sinned.

[B]

Right.

[D]

There's a. There's another psalm. I think it's. I can't remember. I want to say 18, but I.

[C]

Don'T think he knows.

[D]

Yeah. To the. To the pure, you show yourself pure, but to the crooked, the. I think the word is tortuous, but it means, like, sort of, like, twisted. So the way I read it again, you could. You could totally go legalism with this. Yeah, it's an Old Testament verse. And so it all was about Jesus. Right? But. But like, I think what. The way that I think about it is if you're not honest.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Like, you think about Jacob. Okay, let's use Jacob as a case study. Man, this guy is a liar, dude. And he is just. He just self preservation, self preservation, self preservation. Just crooked, crooked, crooked. And things are super complicated. And then he finds himself on a riverbank, and it. And all of the stuff that he's using to hide his own identity and hide behind all that stuff is up on the other side. And it's just him and God. And it's like. He's like, oh, you know, like. And he gets in a wrestling match.

[C]

Face to face, and.

[D]

But it's like, that's what I think about, like, to the pure, like, when you're. When you're really, like, honest with yourself about who you are, if you're trying to hide, man, it feels like. It feels like you're like, trying to wrestle with God, you know, you're trying to, like. And then. But there's that moment where he touches you, and you. You. You are renamed and you are you. You come, you walk away with a limp. Like, Bergen, you said that. And that. That is. That's like the blessed are the broken, you know? Or the porn spirit.

[C]

Yeah, I would. I mean, this is a bold claim. I need to think about it more, but I'm gonna say it right now. I. There's almost no such thing as personal Legalism. Legalism is a real gift if you only apply it to you. There are some things in your life you should be a legalist about, because you can't play that. Like, you know, you may be able to. You may be able to have a drink, and Kelly Adcox cannot. So in his own personal world, he knows technically it's not going to make him saved or unsaved if he has a drink. Just based on his history, he knows if I do this, this is an area the enemy tortures me in. Legalism is when I apply what is beneficial to me as a necessity to you and measure your salvation based on what might be beneficial to my sanctification leg. There are movies I just don't watch. I'm. I'm a bit of a legalist when it comes to nudity in movies.

[D]

Y.

[C]

And I. Tons of godly friends are like, why just fast forward that part? I'm like, okay, I'm not going to judge you in that way. I just know for me, I just. And yet war movies, it's. It bothers me none. Like, you can blow people's head off. And Gretchen doesn't love that. She's like, how can you watch that?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And I'm like, because you can act like you're killing somebody. You can't act like you're naked. That's just naked.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So for me, it just starts to be. There's this. So I am a legalist when it comes to lust issues.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

You guys know, like, I'm a Billy Graham rule guy. Why do you think that is? Because I. It's never been a struggle. It's the other extreme, so. But I don't. Well, if you're a pastor, you're on staff. I require it of you, too, because. Don't be dumb. But the legalism is when somebody. What the Pharisees did originally in adding to the word of God, to put guardrails around their own heart to not break the law. No problem. It's when they required those guardrails for other people, that's the legalism. And so does that make sense?

[D]

It does.

[C]

And I. I do think. Sorry, I do think it is. It's an admittance that I don't have what it takes. Like, I don't. I can't walk fine lines in certain areas. Other areas, I can, you know, no problem. But there's certain areas in my life, based on my past, based on. If I were the enemy, this is how I'd take me out. Based on the reality that I am prone to wonder, and I've never wandered in that direction, but I have wandered in that direction a lot. So I'm gonna shut that door, and I'm gonna ask some other people to help me shut that door. I'm going to be honest about what doors. I'm tempted to walk down and walk away from the Lord. I think, though, that's very helpful. So the holiness movement is incredible. When the focus of the Romans 7 struggle ends with, what a wretch I am, not what a wretch. Like, I've seen you, Michael, and here's where you're messing up and you're like, hold on now again, if I've got. If I just. If you're my. You're my or my brother, if there's specific sin I see in your life, I owe it to you because I love you to be like, hey, here's sin in your life. Yeah, but if it's the food sacrifice, the idol thing, I can't lay a conviction on my conscience on you as a matter of salvation. That's the problem with legalism.

[D]

There's also, I think, what. What happens is what starts. What starts as a pure desire for. For joy, for experiencing God's joy. Because. Okay, so here's an. Here's a. An illustration that is a real life illustration to illustrate what I'm saying. I was doing premarital counseling for this couple. This guy was a swimmer, like a competitive swimmer. He actually was in the. I think he was in the Coast Guard and. But he was like a leg. I think he swam for Georgia or something like that. He looked like. He looked like Michael Phelps. You know, his shoulders were like this W, and his waist was like this. And you know, he's like seven feet tall and. But he didn't shave. He, like, was like an arm shaver guy. And, you know, he looked like it. And, you know, that takes a tremendous amount of focus and all this kind of stuff. And he. You could tell he was like. It was like a huge passion in his life. And we were talking about discipline a bit in marriage life and, you know, like, dating, like, the discipline of spending time together and all this kind of stuff. And I said, man, I bet you there's a moment when you're in the pool and you've done all this stuff, and there's a moment when you feel so little resistance, like you've done all these things to perfect your technique, your stroke, all this kind of stuff. You're, like, shaving your arms. You're doing all this stuff, there's a moment where you love that sport so much that you feel so little resistance. It just lights you up. He's like, I know exactly what you're talking about. And I think what happens is a lot of times with the spiritual disciplines, you know, Foster talks about this in celebration discipline a lot. He paints this illustration of a pathway with two slopes on the side of it. One is legalism, and one is license. Right. And the pathway is, you know, this kind of the way of truth towards God. And that's the pathway of discipline. But the joy isn't the. The pathway gets you to a place. It's a vehicle to get you somewhere good. It's not. It's. The discipline is not the end of it. That discipline leads you to a place where you're experiencing God's joy. I think a lot of times in those movements, you get hung up on measuring the disciplines and you lose out on the joy.

[B]

The means become the end.

[D]

That's right. That's exactly what I'm saying. You said it so much faster than.

[C]

I. Lar Osborne talks about people get hung up on the watering schedule instead of the fruit.

[D]

Yeah, that's right.

[C]

Yeah. Very true. Very, very true.

[B]

It'd be like being OCD about washing your hands and caring more about, like, the way you did it instead of just having clean hands.

[C]

Very true.

[D]

And a pure heart.

[B]

There you go. You said, pastor Joby, you know, there's no more miserable person than a Christian living in sin. You know, it's true. And so you think about, like, all the effort and all. You're just. You're not experiencing the joy. You.

[C]

You.

[B]

You're having to manage both sides of a. Losing, a losing battle.

[D]

It was actually jarring when you said it in the sermon for me. I was sitting there and you said. You said, you can't even enjoy. What you said was, you can't even enjoy porn.

[C]

Right?

[D]

And I was like, what? That doesn't. That's not right.

[C]

Listen, the lost. The person that doesn't know God, all they have is their flesh.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And I'm telling you, sexual pleasure is. That's it, dude. What else you got? Eventually, it leads to death, but not immediately, right? And so you're like, man, I'm killing it. Look at this. Get to do what I want with who I want. Look at what I want. Okay? The person with the spirit of God living in is like, I shouldn't do this. I shouldn't do this. Okay, I'm going to do it. Oh, God. That was Good. But it wasn't good. Oh no. I mean that. Nobody's going to get this.

[D]

But.

[C]

It'S like it's competing bodybuilding, talking about means to end. And if you cheated on your diet, it was. Everything's miserable. You can't fully enjoy this good food that you're eating because you know what it's costing you. And then the next day in the gym you knew what it cost you, so it's like you missed it twice. That is indwelling sin in the believer. And then you can't fully enjoy God either. I mean, you guys know what it's like. You show up to church and I'm talking about that unrepentant sin that you're trying to justify in your mind. And you can't sing the same, can't pray the same. You can't, you can't because you know that God has chased you down in the garden of his creation and you were ashamed. And he's like, who told you you were naked? Did you do what I said not to do? And you're like. And then you start coming up with excuses of, you know, totally. So it's just miserable.

[D]

Do you think the person, I mean, I've never experienced that.

[B]

I have a lot. Do you think the person that's lost. So, so what brings a person that's lost to a point of real. So I think, I think part of what Paul talks about is a pre Christianity experience because he's talking about when you're in the flesh, all you know is that it's bringing you death, it's causing death to happen to you only.

[C]

When the law is applied to it. So, so you don't know it until the law is applied to it.

[B]

So that person, so, so the, the, the person will only realize that this is going to bring death. When the law comes in, when the.

[C]

Gospel comes, there's one of two things that happen. One is that it's kind of a little bit of Romans 1 and you lay your head down on the pillow and have accomplished all that the, the world has to offer. And you're like, is this it? Right, That's a little bit of Romans 1. Like, okay, yeah, none of us are without excuse, you know, Then the person that gets introduced to the truth of the word of God and you're like, well, crap, if that's what, how we're supposed to live, I can't pull this off. That's.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

When you be that, that begins to reveal the, the poorness of spirit that you have and Go, I need something else because my way is not working.

[B]

You have to. You have to have some kind of experience where you hit bottom, where you realize that all that pleasure is not really pleasurable.

[C]

Yeah. And the bottom could be success. I mean, there's lots of people that it. I mean, I used to tell. I've told that greyhound illustration, you know, like greyhound chases the rabbit they call rusty, and if. If sometimes rusty breaks down because it's mechanical. And they have the hardest time getting a greyhound to chase the rabbits anymore because they realize I've been duped. So what's sadder? To spend your whole life chasing the things not real or to catch the thing that you chasing and realized that it was all a sham? When you're.

[D]

Yeah, go ahead.

[B]

When you're talking to your one mores, do you find that there is that sense of this is death? Or if you. If you said to them, hey, all those things that you're pursuing for pleasure are. Are empty? Are they like. No, they're not. You know what I mean? What, what do you have a more common, what Conversation?

[C]

I think. Remember when Josh Alberton was here and he's like, you got to think about evangelism steps, steps from 1 to 10, man. They're all over the place. Brokenness is the fast track. So the latest guy led to Christ as a doctor at Mayo, and he lost his brother to liver disease. And his brother turned to Jesus before he died. So his was like, brokenhearted. But he saw his brother full of hope, and he's like, he's the one dying. How does he have hope? I don't have hope. So he came to investigate, showed up 1122, and then I just hit him at that intersection, and it was just a divine appointment. And I was like, let's just do this right now, man. You need Jesus right now, and I do. The ABCs is the easiest way to explain it. There's another guy that's. I mean, he probably doesn't listen to this. So he's my newest one more at the gym. He's a professional bodybuilder. So, like, in his world, he's accomplished everything there is to accomplish. So now I'm leaning on him. I'm like, so how's that going, man? I mean, you're about to retire, so now what are you going to do with your life? I mean, eventually your body's going to break down.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So what are you going to do? I mean, come across the street and I can tell you about it. That's. That literally is the kind of stuff I say. And I just hang out with him and work out near him. And I. I just try to be sensitive to. I mean, Acts 1:8 says, and you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. So I'm just trying to think and pray and be like, all right, Lord, when you nudge me towards talking about you, I'm going to. But I'm not going to force it because I. You know, you say, salvation is yours. And, dude, sometimes there's another couple at the gym, and I met them, and she was. She was talking about raising her kid and all this stuff, and I was like, you guys need a church. I just come to our church. You got to raise your kid in church. That's just what I said, dude. Three weeks later, I see her and she's like, we've been there every week. And her husband or boyfriend came to every week of the men's Bible study. He just, like, jumped to third base, you know? So. I don't know, man. I think that's the. Like, the Lord saves and people come to him. Some of them full of stuff, some of them broken.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

The best question I ever asked is, so how's that working for you? The person says, it's working great. Honestly, the thing you need is needed. So when you realize something's missing, then it's fascinating that. Yeah.

[D]

That Paul in Romans, you know, one. One is interesting, man, because he kind of goes after this big picture. God has made himself known.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So, like, you know, there's probably a movement of people out there that are. They would be agnostic or atheistic, and everything's relative. And you know what I mean? It's like nothing matters, and there is no, you know, truth is relative. There's, you know, all this kind of stuff.

[C]

Yeah. It's amazing how. How much that's waning right now.

[D]

I know. That's what I'm saying is, is Paul starts here.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And then he gives. You know, he's like, actually, God's created this thing in a way where there's like, a natural order to things and justice and. You know what I mean? And people give themselves over into depravity, and they. You know what I mean? He. This is where he starts. And so it's kind of like Paul. Paul gets into the introduction of the law, the general revelation in. Right at the beginning of this letter. Like, he starts painting the idea that you're never going to find fulfillment in a world where you are. We're chasing your own desires. And Going out and getting more for me, or if that's comes out in sexuality or it comes out and whatever it is, is going to be ultimately joyful for you. That's kind of where he starts the entire letter to the Romans.

[C]

Yeah. It's very. Well, he came first. So since Lewis was mere Christianity, very much followed the pattern of Romans. The idea is we all tune our life to something. Don't we all agree there's. We. We all agree there's good and bad.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. As compared to what? That's where he starts.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And by the time he gets to Jesus on the cross, he's like, all right, so liar, lunatic, or Lord, your call and that. And that's just a. It's just a step by step walk from here to there. But yeah, it's. I mean, you know, there's a lot of folks saying now you got to believe in more miracles to be an atheist than to be a Jesus follower. I mean, I believe that a virgin gave birth to a kid, but the atheist believes that nothing gave birth to everything.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So what's more plausible, that a virgin woman gave birth to a child or a virgin. Nothing gave birth to a universe or. You mentioned consciousness. So nothing. Out of nothing came consciousness. Right. Out of nothing came matter, and then out of matter became mind. That seems like a way bigger leap than there's actually a source flowing. So. And then brother atheists don't like that.

[D]

I've been think I. Well, I have a great story about a very famous person that I love to tell that I won't tell, but I met Matthew McConaughey.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

He's in the news a lot right now. He had a book come out.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Called Poems and Prayers.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And it's super Oprah ish, you know, like, so is Green Lights, by the way, which is fantastic.

[C]

You gotta do the audible, especially on audible.

[B]

It's a great.

[D]

Ah, it's so great. Anyway, all right, all right. There's a brilliant story about this that I. That I actually experience. This is hilarious. But there's also this sort of like nebulous spirituality out there. You know what I mean? Like, and, and that's what makes this journey that we're on and the gospels, the gospel narratives that precede it, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. So striking is because these are massively universal claims about Jesus's authority and power as the savior of the world. You know what I mean? But they're incredibly exclusive and specific. The most inclusive, exclusive thing I think I've heard you say.

[C]

Yeah. Well, there's Romans 1 and Romans 10 and they're parallel tracks. And Romans 1 is no one has an excuse because God's creative order has revealed that he is God. And yet you can't stand under a tree and just get saved because you realize there's something bigger than me. Romans 10 is how they gonna get saved if they don't hear. And how they gonna hear if they don't preach? And how are they gonna preach if you don't go? Yeah, both are absolutely true. Which is, I mean, a part of what I love about this song is how rooted in the gospel it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The. I mean, he's talking about God chased me down while I was wandering far from the fold of God. It's not like I got smart and started figuring this thing out.

[D]

Yeah. Or to use the consciousness thing, you didn't give yourself that.

[C]

Right. But God interposed his precious blood.

[B]

One of the things that I, I want to come back to the interposed. One of the things that I've learned from watching like Charlie Kirk's videos is that I think a lot of people attach. You're talking about agnostics or atheists. You know, I think a lot of times people just attach themselves to a half baked idea that they think maybe is good, but they haven't really thought about it. And then when you, when, when people have to articulate, here's why I hold to this, you realize they actually haven't thought through it at all.

[C]

Yeah, they're just, they just got that jersey on. Right.

[B]

They're just like kind of what I.

[C]

Would equate it to. I've never, like, I've never gone to the Jags game. I showed up a Jags fan and assessed and be like, the other team is better. I think I'm going to switch teams. And many, most people come to arguments that way. This is the jersey I wore. So I'm, I'm either, you know, progressive or a conservative. And this is what our team thinks. But they don't have well thought out. Many, many, many people don't have well thought out arguments. And I mean, a part of what Charlie Kirk did, the other thing I appreciated about him, one is everything he thinks is on video. So all the accusations about him, just, just, just look at the videos, you know what I mean? And he seemed to address people depending on who and where they were. Like if you were a professor peddling lies, he'd come at you kind of hard. You know, if you were confused student, a lot of times he would just Ask questions, you know, and, and there's numerous, you know, because a lot of the, a lot of the hate is like, well, he hated the trans folks. Like, have you heard him talk to trans people? Because he'd be like, so how does that make you feel? Tell me about your experience. And then by the time his like solution was, my hope for you is that you could be okay with the body that you're in, that maybe your mind needs to change in alignment with your body versus you go through all kinds of major surgery and consequences here to try to align your body to your mind. And that's what I hope for you. That, I mean, that's like a paraphrase, you know what I'm saying?

[D]

Yeah. I actually thought a lot about romans. Is it 12 this do not be conformed.

[C]

Oh yeah.

[D]

But be transformed by the renewal of your mind.

[B]

Mind.

[D]

I thought about that a lot tonight when you were preaching on this, you know, like the idea of renewal of the mind. And it actually, I, I, I was teaching on a thing that had to do with this a little. Was actually our admins at, at a, at their retreat.

[C]

Oh, that's cool.

[D]

And, and that word is a noun. The word renewal is a noun, but it implies, the Greek word is a noun, but it implies. So it's a finished work, but it implies activity along with it. It's, it's progressive sanctification. So it's a picture of progressive sanctification, which is kind of what you were talking about tonight, you know, and, and.

[C]

Kind of back to your, kind of your foster stuff about means and ends. You know, the key in victory over sin is the closer you are to Jesus. Just straight up, unless you're going to sin. This is John 15 stuff. He's like, abide me, abide my word. That was a means to an end. Right. And you'll abide in me. I'm going to cut some stuff out. You got to be cutting some stuff out. There's some branches that are going to get cut off. There's some healthy things that are going to get cut back. But the whole point is abide in me. Because apart from me, you can't do anything. So the white knuckle pursuit of obedience for obedience sake will just reveal your humanity. You'll get exhausted and you can't pull it off. Abiding in Christ, you'll find victories in areas of, of your life that you never dreamed you could have victory in.

[B]

Well, it's like Paul comes to that conclusion. He says, who will deliver me? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. And that's what's all through this song. He's saying that the thing that's going to help me is to remember what Christ has already done for me.

[C]

Correct.

[B]

You know, he says here I raised my Ebenezer, which always confused me as a kid. I thought I was talking about Scrooge and Duck and. But it's from 1st Samuel 7. It's like, this is the Stone of Remembrance, like you pointed out. And God interposed his precious blood or oh, to grace.

[C]

How.

[B]

How great a debtor daily I'm constrained to be. And interposed is to. To put something between two. Two parties.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Like I'm putting. I'm going to set this in the middle. That's going to provide the. The. The necessary reconciliation between. So when you remember all of that, it is the thing that keeps you from wandering.

[C]

Yeah. And let that goodness like a fetter by my wondering heart to thee. So it's so counterintuitive, right? I mean. I mean, Jesus says, you know, if you want to find your life, you lose it. So if you want to be a. If you want to be the freest man ever, become a slave to Christ and you will be completely set free. Free of sins, free of shame. And over time, you begin to stack up some victories in your walk with Christ. And again back to MacArthur. The. The. Hopefully you sin less, but you feel worse. And it's that conviction that is also a grace of God. And it's his kindness that convicts you and then leads you to be like, I need to change the way. I got to rewire my whole thinking that's what repent means. Actually, I got to rewire the whole way. I've been thinking about how life works. I thought I had to go and get. And actually I got to receive from him.

[B]

It goes back to that idea. We've talked about it a lot. Like, what. What is freedom really? You know, And a lot of people's misconception is to not have anything holding me back would be freedom. And I thought of Paul who said. Who often called himself Bond, servant of Christ.

[C]

Right.

[D]

And that.

[B]

That would, that would be. That word is when you had the choice to leave, but you didn't, and you said, I'm yours forever.

[D]

I read something this last week. It was about resistance and it was about how. When people. It's kind of what you said. Like when, when you have this thought in your mind that there's going to be some era of your life, like, let's just say, like Retirement or something. Like when there's no responsibility, you know, whatever. And you know what I mean? And you're kind of like working towards this thing. But what this guy was saying is if you actually look back on the eras of your life where you felt the most alive and most satisfied is kind of like when there was the most resistance and you were like working in, in that. You know what I mean? And that's where you had your like a true sense of like, meaning and you know what I mean?

[B]

Britt has this great thing that. I can't remember it exactly. It's basically that same thing. He's like the, the thing that will bring meaning to you is your. Is living in your purpose, like serving that purpose that, with. With like zeal, serving that purpose that God's called you to. Not in idleness, not in, yeah. Shirking responsibility, but it is actually shouldering that purpose and that weight of responsibility that is given to you. But I mean, think about that, that imagery though, like ball and chain, like you said, like to say, take, take me, take my heart. Yeah, put the ball and chain on it.

[C]

So think about this. The three of us, relative to some people are. Would be mature Christians, right? And oftentimes the thing that most hinders people from following Jesus is what they think they're giving up. Does it feel, does Jesus feel like a ball and chain to you at all? Like, I mean, think about that. We are just the amount of effort and energy and time and worship music we listen to. And he, he, I mean, right to us, we're like, oh gosh, dude, you don't understand. You, you're like a, you're like a thirsty man complaining of giving up thirst for a drink of water. It doesn't make any sense. Trust me, this is better than what you think you're giving up. It's actually the source of freedom, not the hindrance of it. Or think about this. You've never hear somebody in a good godly marriage with a wife that they adore talk about her as a ball and chain. Yeah, she's like a source of happiness and joy. And you know, I was going to.

[D]

Say like, I think of parallels in, in, in the, in that have to do with obedience in the life of Christ. Just really personally for me, like, I used to have all kinds of dreams, man. Like, like music stuff.

[C]

Oh yeah.

[D]

Like, I wanted to be a recording artist and I did that for a minute and it was good, it was fun and, but I had all kinds of like, you know, in my mind, I Was like, man, if I could get this or I could have this opportunity or I could go and do this, you know? And these days, like, I've said this to some guys. I think I said it in my disciple group some time ago, but I was like, you know, what I really look forward to is, like, sitting around the table with my kids and they're like, when they, you know what I'm. And just sitting there and eating Thanksgiving dinner and just laughing. Like, that's actually the thing inside of me. Like, if I. If you ask me other than, you know, like, I want to be obedient, obedient to the Lord. Well, a lot of what that looks like is living a life of faithfulness in my life so that there's generations that come and. Whereas I, you know, like, maybe I wanted to win some award or some Grammy or something, you know, whatever the thing. One of the things that, like, is, like, you know what really gets me going? Family dinners. You know what I mean? Like, spaghetti night. There's no doubt where it's at.

[C]

I got a book coming out next week. That's great. And I am most excited about. It's Reagan's birthday this weekend, and all of us, we're just spending all weekend together, you know, and so that feels.

[D]

Like a fruit of Jesus in you that shifts your desires towards the right things. You know what I mean?

[C]

Yeah. And I get to speak on, you name the stage, and I've get invited to speak there. Now I am looking forward to Reagan blowing out her candles 10x.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

As much as I am talking to pastors at some place.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Or another way to think about it. There might be some sink. Like, I'm a slave to my wife. There's all kinds of decisions I make and don't make because I'm married to her. And some of them may have even started just out of, like, I've been told it is wise to not text with other girls. I've been told that it is, you know, whatever the reason is. Do you know how much freedom I have now based on 25 years of protecting that marriage and loving her and honoring her and making all kinds of what other people saw as severely limiting decisions. And, you know, it's a thing online right now where. Where couples will swap phones and you see the person go, so what felt like freedom now feels like bondage because you're like, oh, no, I'm busted. Well, if you got nothing to hide, yeah, that's called freedom, for sure. But it was a lot of limiting. What felt like freedom for you to actually live in freedom. Today I don't talk to other girls, bro. I, you know, if my wife took my phone, I'd be like, okay, yeah, like, what are you gonna see? There's not a thing, there's not a conversation. That, that's a similar kind of thing. So when you're prone to wonder, it's because you think the grass is greener, you think over there is better than here and it's not.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And so whatever that thing is, you think X amount of drinks over there is going to make me feel better than I feel in here. And you're like, that's the flesh, bro. It just, yeah, it just boils down to that. Or that house in that neighborhood is going to feel better or that whatever the things are. Right. Or the pride of life, like, man, for me and you could just get on big stages. That'd be great. And now you. I mean, I wouldn't trade a stage for my kitchen table.

[D]

No, it's the best.

[C]

How about this? Here's a good one. Since, um, we are in maybe the sweetest season of church in regards to the fruitfulness, at least that we've ever experienced. And in very thin air as far as man can measure fruitfulness. Right. 800 something baptisms on saturated Sunday. I mean just, it's crazy. All the everything. Men's worship, night leadership, church leadership, yada yada. 3 John, verse 4. John says, I have no greater joy than to hear my children are walking in the truth. Think about who wrote that. That dude ate the last supper with Jesus. That dude was a part of feeding of the 5,000. That dude got the revelation of the consummation of all things. He saw in a revelation what the glorified Jesus looks like with sword mouth and tattoo quads and robe dipped in blood. And yet the first thing that comes to his mind on the hey, John, give me your highs and lows high. I hear my kids are walking in truth. Think about that, bro. Wow. That. I mean, that's it, dude. And there's freedom there. There's.

[D]

Yeah, it makes me think that what that as. As you follow Jesus. And this is convicting to me as I said, I actually, I would say that I see you model this pretty consistently. But as you follow Jesus, where it'll eventually lead you is to have a sense of joy in shepherding and discipling others. To see them walk in that. That'll be the fruit of it.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And. And then it's not, it's not out of a Sense of. You get to a place where it's not out of a sense of duty, right to the Great Commission, it's actually. Which is legit, but it's actually a sense of joy that you get out of the fruit that's born in. And seeing this. So that when you get there, when John gets there, he actually writes that and feels it.

[C]

And he could have said, I helped plant Ephesus. He said, no, man, here. My kids are walking in the truth. It's very personal.

[B]

It kind of goes back, I thought, two scriptures that run out of time. But when Jesus said, my yoke is easy and my burden is light, you know, it's like that. That ball and chain's not going to weigh you down. You know, it's. It actually is the most freedom. It's like when you. When you skydive and you're in tandem, you know, it's just like. Actually that's where you want to be and then to go back. You said when you wander, there's a passage in Jeremiah. John Piper quotes it a lot. Jeremiah 2. He says, the. The evils that. That have been committed is that people have forsaken me, the fountain of living water. And then they. They've dug for themselves broken cisterns that can't hold water. You know, kind of goes back to the. He's the fountain, he's the stream.

[C]

Yeah, I didn't talk about it, but we think what happens. Like, let's say we hear about this all the time, very sadly. You hear about somebody just torpedoing their marriage or their ministry or, you know, and you think, well, all of a sudden this guy had this whole hidden life, but it wasn't. It was like the way a sheep wander is just one. They got their head down and it's just like one little baby step at a time. And then they just wander into a bad place, you know, and it's never good. You don't wander into good places. You have to be led to green pastures and still waters, and it's better. That's the whole thing. The good shepherd. I mean, pastor friend of mine told me this, that right and wrong will never sustain you. That obedience is not about right and wrong. It's about life and death. And one path leads to abundant life, and the other path only leads to death and destruction. And that's it. And the good shepherd is good. And he's also. His perspective is different. The sheep can only. It's like 3ft high. Can't even sieve over the next shrub. He doesn't even know where the stream is. And the good shepherd's like, hey man, there's a wolf over there and there's green grass over here. So trust me, follow me. It goes better for you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Amen. Close down.

[C]

Let's pray. Father in heaven, Lord, we thank you that even though we are prone to wonder and Lord, we feel it, we're prone to leave you, even though we love you, that it's always the right time to come home and you always welcome us back. Thank you for your grace. Pray it in Jesus name. Amen. Thank you for listening to the podcast the End. You nailed it.

[A]

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