What Does it Mean to Follow Jesus? - Matthew S1E3

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin

Episode: What Does it Mean to Follow Jesus? - Matthew S1E3

Date: February 2, 2026
Host: Pastor Joby Martin
Guests: Pastor Ben Williams, Pastor Brett

Overview

This episode takes a deep dive into Matthew’s Gospel, specifically focusing on what it means to truly follow Jesus. Pastors Joby, Ben, and Brett explore biblical context, historical insights, and practical application by unpacking Jesus’ move to Capernaum, the calling of the first disciples, and the implications of being a “fisher of men.” The discussion is rich with stories, cultural background, and personal experiences from ministry and travel, weaving together biblical teaching with challenges for modern believers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Context of Jesus’ Move to Capernaum

• Examining the strategic and prophetic reasons for Jesus relocating to “Galilee of the Gentiles” after John the Baptist’s arrest ([01:49-04:57]).
• Pastor Joby: “Whoever Pontius or Herod thought they were in charge, they really aren’t, man. They really are but pawns in God’s grandmaster plan…”
• Jesus intentionally begins his public ministry among Jews and Gentiles, foreshadowing his mission to all nations ([04:57-05:33]).
• Historical details on Herod’s palaces, significance of Capernaum, and Decapolis as hubs of diverse interaction ([02:32-05:19]).

2. Outsiders and the Margins

• Pastor Brett: “Jesus does a lot of his best work in the margins… movements go from outside in a lot of times, you know.” ([06:04])
• Discussion on Jesus’ preference for rural and marginalized locations—contrasted with modern focus on urban ministry ([06:04-07:34]).
• The Jewish system’s insularity at the time of Jesus, and the tension around Gentile inclusion ([03:40-07:34]).

3. Timing and God’s Sovereignty

• Jesus maneuvers not to provoke premature conflict, aligning his public ministry with God’s prophetic timing ([08:29-09:42]).
• Pastor Joby: “He’s appointed to die at Passover three years from now.”
• Differences in Jesus’s instruction when healing Gentiles (“go tell”) vs. Jews (“don’t speak until resurrection”) ([10:43-11:50]).
• Pastor Brett: Researching the phrase “my time has not yet come” as a study through the Gospels ([11:50-12:04]).

4. Personal Stories of Ministry Travel

• Extended anecdotes about trips to Israel, cross-cultural ministry, and unexpected adventures in Palestine ([12:46-19:00]).
• Highlights the complexity and nuance of Middle Eastern contexts and the limitations of outsiders’ perspectives.
• Pastor Joby: “From the comfort of your own living room, you think you’ve got the Middle East figured out. You have no idea what you’re talking about.” ([21:10])

5. Allegiance and Ambassadorship

• Christians’ primary identity is as ambassadors of Christ’s kingdom and government, above national or political allegiance ([23:22-25:50]).
• Pastor Joby: “You be a good citizen until you can't be a good Christian.” ([25:50])

6. Light in the Darkness

• Exploring the biblical metaphor of light and darkness—Jesus comes as the light; people’s natural tendency is to acclimate to darkness ([25:55-28:12, 32:36-36:29]).
• Stories highlight how spiritual awakening can be a jarring but life-transforming “shock to the system.”
• Memorable comparison: entering daylight after a matinee or waking up to your father singing and turning on lights ([27:28-35:48]).

7. Calling the First Disciples: Fishermen as Team-Builders

• Jesus selects ordinary fishermen—those not chosen by other rabbis ([38:03-39:25]).
• Pastor Joby: “Jesus chose them. They did not choose him… this is the… B team, the not good enough, you’re not in the gifted class.” ([39:25])
• Skill sets and past experiences (e.g., fishing) are not wasted but are repurposed for the kingdom ([41:25-42:52]).
• Analogy: Just as David’s “menial” shepherd work prepared him for kingship, so God prepares each of us through our present circumstances.

8. Evangelism and Discipleship: Inseparable Practices

• Evangelism and discipleship portrayed as two sides of the same coin; the church’s mission is both ([45:59-50:30]).
• Pastor Joby: “If you're not making [a disciple], I think according to Jesus's definition, you're not one yet.” ([46:34])
• Critique of separating these as programs: “We separated out evangelism and discipleship… The New Testament just never does it.” ([50:12])

9. Overcoming Fear in Sharing Faith

• Most fear or hesitation to share faith stems from feeling unprepared; but the act itself produces growth ([51:51-53:33]).
• Pastor Joby: “The person that's going to share their faith does learn what they need to.” ([52:20])
• Example: Story of a law student sharing the gospel with a fellow passenger, and trusting God with the result ([30:14-32:36]).

10. Jesus’ Approach to Ministry: Holistic Gospel

• Jesus teaches, proclaims the gospel of the kingdom, and heals—evangelism and discipleship married in his message ([56:19-57:04]).
• Challenging a reductionist view of “the gospel” to only personal salvation, emphasizing Jesus’ comprehensive vision for God’s rule and reign ([56:19-57:04]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On God’s sovereignty:
  “Whoever Pontius or Herod thought they were in charge, but they really are but pawns in God’s grandmaster plan…”
  – Pastor Joby Martin, [02:13]

• On the Great Commission:
  “The first thing he tells his first disciples is… follow me and I'm gonna make you fishers of men.”
  – Pastor Joby Martin, [46:34]

• On light and darkness:
  “Your eyes are adjusted to [darkness], but then the light—Jesus—comes into the darkness and that’s a shock to your system.”
  – Pastor Brett, [35:49]

• On the inseparability of evangelism and discipleship:
  “The greatest way to deepen your walk with Jesus is get real serious about other people discovering theirs. It changes everything.”
  – Pastor Joby Martin, [48:47]

• On feeling equipped:
  “The person that's going to share their faith does learn what they need to.”
  – Pastor Joby Martin, [52:20]

• On Jesus' desire for us:
  “He called to himself those whom he desired and they came to him. I think a lot of people need to hear he wants you.”
  – Pastor Joby Martin, [58:58]

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Strategic move to Capernaum (fulfillment and mission): [01:49-05:33]
• Marginality, rural vs. urban focus: [06:04-07:34]
• Jesus, timing, and God’s sovereignty: [08:29-09:42]
• Light vs. darkness as gospel metaphor: [25:55-28:12; 32:36-36:29]
• Disciples’ calling, fishermen as a metaphor: [38:03-39:25; 41:25-42:52]
• Evangelism & discipleship inseparable: [45:59-50:30]
• Practical stories (Israel, mission, Middle East complexity): [12:46-22:39]
• Jesus’ holistic ministry (teaching, proclamation, healing): [56:19-58:13]
• Invitation to come to Jesus & pastoral encouragement: [58:47-59:19]

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Final Reflections

The episode challenges listeners to see themselves as called and chosen by Jesus—not because of qualifications but because of his grace. The call to "follow" is proactive: a daily act of leaving comfort, letting go of lesser allegiances, and joining Jesus in extending his invitation to others. The hosts urge listeners to move from being Jesus-adjacent to being true followers—those who discover their purpose in helping others discover Christ.

“May we be followers of you that consistently take steps because we realize the moment we got rescued, we became a part of the rescue team.”
– Pastor Joby Martin, [61:43]

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For more content or to support the ministry:

• JobyMartin.com – Free chapter from Pastor Joby’s book
• coe22.com/donate – Support The Church of Eleven22

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Note:
Episode skips announcements, service time logistics, and ad reads for focused summary.

Transcript

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Well, you know, it'd be easy to take for granted, but I just want to say thank you, Pastor Joby, for chopping it up. Well, you do that every week, but thank you for the sermon today.

[Pastor Brett]

Amen.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Thank you.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

And how's it feel preaching through Matthew so far? I mean, it seems like. It seems like when you. When you think about it, maybe this is how I feel, but it's like I got a lot of work to do, you know, so just kind of like get after it. I've kind of noticed that.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

The hardest parts, in order for us to get it done in a year, there's going to be sometimes where in the coming weeks, j. Jesus is going to give. Like there'll be like one encounter with the Pharisees and the next three chapters are all just pointing back to that one thing, like the miracles and the stories. That's going to be hard when I've got so far, it's the way I've divided it up, it's lended itself pretty good to preaching.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah. And if you're following along on this journey with us, be reading the gospel as well. Sure. You know, because then you're super familiar with all the different sections. But let's dive into the text here. I wanted to ask a question, maybe some speculation here for. For a minute. And you mentioned a few reasons, but this passage opens up with Jesus hearing about John's arrest. And it sounded like we're. That's like a little bit of a preview for a few weeks from now. I think it's Matthew 14. Right. That talks more about the details of that story.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But even a little before that, when he sends somebody to say, are you the one? So, yeah.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Oh, while he's in prison. And I don't know, when I was reading, struck me that he heard about that and then he moved.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Correct.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

And so let's speculate a little bit or just talk about what's all happening. That move obviously tells us to fulfill the scripture, but what else? Like, strategic or he's processing or.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I think it's way more like, you know, whoever Pontius or Herod thought they were in charge, but they really aren't, man. They really are but pawns in God's grandmaster plan, you know, and they think they're pulling Strings. And they're not very Caesar Augustus with us with a right census.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Where does Herod. Where was his base out of, like, where was his palace?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Well, he had one in Jerusalem or outside of Jerusalem, near. Near the road to Jericho. Yeah, that's where his main palace was. Yeah.

[Pastor Brett]

And then he had the other one up on the Med. Yeah, you know, up at Capernaum. But where's the last place we stop on the way out that Paul was in prison?

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Capernaum by the sea, or whatever it's called.

[Pastor Brett]

Yeah, by the sea.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Caesarea.

[Pastor Brett]

Caesarea, by the sea.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Accessory and maritime. Yep, they had one there. And then he had like a quarters injured in the capital. So lots of houses.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah. So I think he may have had.

[Pastor Brett]

One in Jericho too.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah. Not a bad guy if you look him up. I mean, is a very bad guy if you look him up. So I also thought he's. So he. He hears that this has happened to John and I wonder if that signaled. All right, it's go time now for me. And he doesn't go to the main center of like the nation, but Capernaum is a bit more of a. It's more on the map than Nazareth, right?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, I don't think that's it at all. I think it's way more. Abraham has given this blessing so that the whole world would be blessed, so that every family would be blessed. And then by the. Especially by the time Jesus comes out, Israel has completely turned inward. They're not even using the Gentile courts anymore except to fleece the people. It's all turned inward. I mean, heck, by the time the church starts, three and a half years later, they got to have meetings on whether Gentiles could even get saved. Talk about, like, this is post 3 years of Jesus teaching crucifixion and resurrection and the apostle Paul getting saved. This is years after. I mean, there's the wrap around the axle of we're chosen for what? And Matthew is saying, well, the whole point, you're going to know it by the time you get to Matthew 28. So you know what the sermon's about, how it starts, how it ends. It starts with, they're not kings, but kings from afar coming to worship Jesus. And it ends with, take Jesus to the kingdoms afar. Right. And so where does. Where does Jesus go first? He goes to the Galilee of the Gentiles. So this has to do with like the resettlement and there's a bunch of Jews and Gentiles mixed up there together. And so he's gonna go Mix it up with all kinds of peoples.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Isn't it called the Decapolis, like the cities all around?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, the 10 cities around there are called the Decapolis. That's the last verse of, of the chapter.

[Pastor Brett]

Yeah. Capernaum is right on what is known as Lake Tiberius now, you know, and borders up against what we would currently know as a lot of the Arab world. It'd be one of the ways into the Arab world. And so it certainly.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Syria.

[Pastor Brett]

Syria, yeah. And so it certainly had to be a center of trade where tons of gentile activity was, no question about it was still very much a Jewish stronghold, you know.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

So.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, so if you go to, if you go there now, if you go to Capernaum, I mean like Peter's house is there. The, the. There's a synagogue there that they. I mean they built a synagogue on the first century synagogue. But you can still see the ruins of that. So that's where Jesus is.

[Pastor Brett]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

It is kind of funny if you think about it in Acts, reading through Acts and they're like, should the gentiles be allowed? It's like. Well, it says that Jesus says.

[Pastor Brett]

I think it's a fascinating thing, right, that Jesus does a lot of his best work in the margins, you know, and even in our world today, you'll see a lot of. And it's certainly not one to one, but you'll see a lot of commentary about planting churches in urban centers and in the city, in the city, in city, in the city. And man, I'm all for reaching the people in the city, but I also think that country people, country people and rural places, and there's a lot of places on the margin where God often does his best work and movements go from outside in a lot of times, you know. And I think Nazareth too was a really. As I understand it historically, Nazareth was a really rural town. The illiteracy rates back then would have been just astronomical. And Capernaum is.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

There's.

[Pastor Brett]

I don't know this again, it's all speculation, but Capernaum is certainly a more robust town in regards to education systems.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And.

[Pastor Brett]

People who have chosen to, to live there and not in the big city of Jerusalem. And so there's a lot going on there. We know for sure Peter's house was there. But I do wonder how much of it it's the like prophet's not welcome in hometown kind of thing too, you know, I don't. He's not saying that in reference to this, but you know, he'd been in Nazareth for quite Some time, by the time he leaves and, you know, to go and launch out his ministry, certainly worth paying attention to.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So I do think a couple things. One, there would be a little caveat. Jewish kids were really well educated because they were. They were people of the scroll. So they memorized the scripture. You know, they could read scriptures. They would go to synagogue and have readings and things like that. So they were quite ahead of, like, your average gentile kid that didn't have the educational opportunities centered around the book. It wasn't a book then. It was a scroll. But they called them the books or the scrolls. I also think always use the scripture to interpret itself. So John 2. When he. When Jesus said, the wedding of Cana, and Mary says, hey, they're out of wine, and he says, woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come. Most commentators and theologians will say Jesus knows the moment he goes public. He's like turning the hourglass that has to line up with Passover on the day that it is appointed to him to be crucified.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Right.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So there could be a little bit of that in here. Like, if I hang out in Jerusalem, this thing might get activated too quickly. As far as our human perspective goes, this is what you said last week. God lives in eternity, but we live in chronology. And Jesus is doing both. And so I think the driving force is I'm for all peoples. But for sure, there's a little bit of Jesus. Got to play the system here in a sovereign, Buttman way, because the timing's got to be. I mean, he's appointed to die at Passover three years from now.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And so he's going to hang out up there, dude. My. When we go to Israel, I love it all. But, man, when we go up to Galilee, too, there now, if you just think from a purely human standpoint. So he lives in Nazareth. It's not great, John. His cousin gets arrested, and then you roll up to Galilee and you're like, of course. This is where I live. It's like. It's not. It's kind of a beach because the. The Sea of Galilee, it's not really a sea. It's like a huge lake. But they. They were. They were really proud of their stuff, so they call it a C. But it's nice, dude. And I don't mean just nice.

[Pastor Brett]

It's like Napa.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

It is like Napa Valley. That's what it looks like. It's just rolling hills of lush green dates and palms. And what's crazy, this is Funny. We were there guide, like, first time, you can see. You could see the not promised land over there, and it's just dirt and desert. Like, if you just go to your Google Maps, if you're listening online right now, go to your Google Maps, spread it out to the earth, go find Israel and just start squeezing it in. And then you get to the promised land side of the Jordan, and it's just all green, even still today. And so you ask an Israelite, hey, why is it all dirt over there and it's all green over here? And I'm thinking some kind of. Some. Well, the ph. About. No. And he goes, this is the promised land.

[Pastor Brett]

That's right.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But it, like, legitimately, geographically, you can just see a difference. And today it's beautiful. I mean, and also, dude, fishermen were not like, bottom of the barrel. It was a pretty dang good job. The whole.

[Pastor Brett]

Every.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

All the industry is built around that sea. And they're transporting people because, you know, you can get to a lot of places there. It also gives Jesus an opportunity. We'll see. He can bounce to gentile towns and back to Jewish towns like that. And one of the things that Gretchen brought up in one of her devotionals a few years ago, that I never noticed that. That every time. And we'll get into it in a few weeks. When he would heal in the gentile towns, he would say, go tell everybody that you have been healed by me. When he heals in the Jewish towns, he's like, don't say a word till I come out of the grave. That crazy.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

That's crazy.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So now you got to, like, start wrestling with why the wise of all that kind of stuff. But it was going to take the resurrection for him, for. For the Jewish people to be able to think that he's the Messiah. But for the gentile folks, the healing of the demoniac was going to be enough. Because the demoniac, like, can I come with you? He's like, no, I don't want you to do. I want you to go tell everybody what's happened to you. But like, dude with the mat, he's like. Or mountain of transfiguration they come off of. He's like, don't tell anybody about this until I'm come out of the grave.

[Pastor Brett]

Yeah. Super fascinating Bible study is to research the times and places where Jesus said, my time has not yet come. And then finally he says, the time.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Has finally the hours here. The hour is here in the garden of Kissimmee. He's about to get arrested.

[Pastor Brett]

It's a really interesting trek through Jesus's life.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah. And to just talk about Acts again. We talked recently about the people that were baptized with the baptism of John.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

You know, so it continued to spread through those Gentile heirs. And maybe they didn't even know, you know, yet.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Well, it was. They totally didn't know. So they go see John in the Jordan. They get baptized in a baptism of repentance. And then they run up the road and then you get into middle late Acts and Paul runs into them. They're. Oh, yeah, baptized. He goes, whose baptism were you baptized?

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Right.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Do you have the Holy Spirit? And they go, who's he?

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So he's got to share the. Not just the. He's got to share the life, death and resurrection of Christ. He's got to share the gospel. And then they get re. Baptized.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah.

[Pastor Brett]

The shawarma up there on the Sea.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Of Galilee to die for.

[Pastor Brett]

Boy. Boy, that's good. How to change your life. You love some shawarma? I do love shawarma.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Let's tell the story about when we were on the Sea of Galilee, eating at Peter's Fish Camp, or whatever they call it.

[Pastor Brett]

And that dude.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And that dude fed Pastor Ben Williams my hand. Like. Like a baby bird hummus.

[Pastor Brett]

We're at St. Peter's Fish House three knuckles deep down. And there's a specific kind of fish that they can order just about everywhere there. And it's called St. Peter's fish. Yeah. And Pastor Ben eats chicken fingers and french fries and chicken parms. Those are his tomb. That's just what he eats.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Y.

[Pastor Brett]

And barely. Barely eats that.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Never seen him finish him.

[Pastor Brett]

I've just not ever met anyone who is that indifferent to food other than Pastor Ben.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But he is. That's a grown man and.

[Pastor Brett]

But good. Good on him. And that's how he keeps his boyish good looks.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

I guess.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

He does.

[Pastor Brett]

But. So they bring out hummus and tabouli and baba ganoush and all these Mediterranean salads, and you get the hummus and you just go to town and over there you can eat and eat and eat until your face is about to fall off. But because they don't use any preservatives.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

No big pharma.

[Pastor Brett]

It's. It's exactly right. It's super clean and it doesn't stick on you. Like food here does.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

No gluten.

[Pastor Brett]

It just does bread.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Seriously?

[Pastor Brett]

Seriously. And so we're all. We're all elbow deep in the baba ganoush and the hummus. Well, I take a Bath in that hummus. I mean, it's just so good.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Dripping in a way.

[Pastor Brett]

And you're welcome for that mental picture out there, all you listeners, but I just.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

It's so good, so good.

[Pastor Brett]

And I. Ben's just sitting there with his arms crossed, and the guy comes up, the waiter. I think he owned the restaurant.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Pastor Brett]

And he's like, you don't like my hummus? And Ben's like, no, no, I'm fine. He's trying to be all nice about it. And the guy takes the. The bread and he scoops up this huge chunk of hummus and he just.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Goes, you eat it like this.

[Pastor Brett]

And he just sticks it in Ben's face. And Ben's like turning his face away, trying not. He's just like with his mouth closed and he's just like painting his face with hummus, man, it's so good.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Then later he said, why didn't you help me? I said, I don't know. I wouldn't let a grown man put his hummus fingers, dude.

[Pastor Brett]

Same trip. While we're on story time, let's go. Same trip. This was your first time over there, and I had been there before. And our friends over there have been doing a ton of ministry in the west bank, which is highly Muslim, 99.9. It's very under Muslim. It's very undercover. Lots of. But they've been doing great gospel ministry. And so there were. There are underground believers there. And we were just going to go and sit with them and talk with them and someone that our friends had been ministering to, we were going to go and just sit in their house and get to know them and see if we could share the gospel. They weren't yet Christians. And so it's. It's nighttime. And our driver of our van over there is Jewish. And the Jewish people, Russian Jewish. He's a Russian Hebrew.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Pastor Brett]

And they are. Anywhere you time you get near the west bank or Gaza, they are very. They get very, very serious. They've lived in a world that we just don't understand.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

There are signs that say, if you are Jewish, take your life into your own hands if you pass this point.

[Pastor Brett]

Yeah. Anytime we cross Jericho, for example, is in the West Bank. And if we have a Jewish tour guide with us, more times than not, they have to get out of the bus at the border. And an Arab tour guide gets on and goes with you in. Because they just don't cross that line. Okay, well, our Russian Hebrew driver, that night, it was only a couple of miles in and well, our clocks were.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

All jacked up because the time change, it was like, second night we're there. So it's like, I mean, it's late and we're like, what are we doing? Mark's like, let's go visit friends.

[Pastor Brett]

Let's go visit some friends. And so we go and we're having. And Ben's with us, and our driver pulls us in and somebody pulls us into the house that we're staying. But where we're staying is a refugee camp. Where we're going to visit is a refugee camp.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Palestinian refugee.

[Pastor Brett]

A Palestinian refugee camp.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

It's like a trailer park.

[Pastor Brett]

Exactly. At best, it's a trailer park.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Trailer park would have been way nicer.

[Pastor Brett]

And so our Russian Hebrew driver draws, draws, drives us in, nervous as a house cat. And one of the people who live there, one of the Palestinians kind of blocks him in and he rolls the window down. And Hebrew is a harsh language and Russian is a harsh language. And so he rolls the window down and he says, move your car. But the way it sounds, one, it's clear that he's a Jew. And two, it just sounds aggressive. No, we don't know any of this is going on. We had gotten out of the van. We, we're in the house just chilling, drinking tea, talking with these people, hearing about their life, trying to do some ministry. And I see our host, the host family, the Palestinian man, His phone starts ringing and I'm like, doors open on the trailer doors. It's like 10 o' clock at night. I'm like, this is not bro. Something has changed.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Ben gets a guitar hanging on the wall, off the wall, and starts playing.

[Pastor Brett]

Like, come thou found.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, that's it.

[Pastor Brett]

He's just picking. Come thou fount over there. He has no idea what's going on. And I'm like, the temperature changed, you know, and your discernment kicks in. And all these Palestinian men start coming to the door. In and out, in and out, in and out, in and out. And the tone starts getting louder. And I, I, I look at Pastor Joby and I was like, I think we should probably go. And I'm, I just have bad case in my mind going on right now. And I traveled enough to just trust and learn to trust my spidey senses. So I was like, pastor, I think we should go. Our driver was gone.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Pastor Brett]

And so we get Ben and we start hiking out of this thing. We walk out in the middle of the night, 10 o' clock, night of a Palestinian refugee camp. We probably had to walk a Mile.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And a half crossing, fences, highway.

[Pastor Brett]

This is the exact same.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Sorry elders.

[Pastor Brett]

This is the exact same border stop that I got stopped at one time because we were crossing over. And mark that we were with our host. He's the worst liar in the history of ever.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

He's so kind.

[Pastor Brett]

He's just so kind, he can't even tell half truths. And so they're asking him, where have y' all been? And he starts trying to say it in a way that's not going to get us flagged, which then gets us flagged. So they pull us over, put us in a single wide trailer. You weren't with me this time. Put us in a single wide trailer that has like a two by two window. And I'm just standing at the window and I'm like, are we ever going to get out of here at this border stop? And they take our car apart. I just see them walking the car by the window, bumpers, tires, and they're checking for bombs or weapons or drugs or who knows what. And we were in there for like three or four hours and we had to go to that border stop and cross back over. And it was a wild night. Anyway. I do know things that stay in Israel evidently don't stay in Israel.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I didn't have to worry because I had Brit and Brit was worried for all of us. Gretchen at home literally calls Brit our cup bearer. And he had. Later he was like, I had pre decided if a grenade rolled in, I was jumping on it or if a suicide vest came in, I was just gonna hug him so that you can make it home. Thanks, buddy.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pastor Brett]

We didn't tell. I forgot to get the elder's permission on taking Joby to a Palestinian refugee camp.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But it worked out. We, we talked about Jesus and we did. It's all good. But we, I mean, yeah, I will say this. Shout out to Cutter and our guys on the ground there that do some serious gospel work.

[Pastor Brett]

There's a lot of horrible things hap have happened over there and are happening over there still.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Always, always.

[Pastor Brett]

It's been that way for a long time. But there are a lot. There's a lot of good gospel movement going on underground over there. A lot.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I will say when Douglas Murray was on Rogan debating Dave Smith. And Dave Smith is a comedian, so he's so witty and sharp. And Douglas Murray's sort of a historian and he's British, so he sounds real arrogant no matter what he's talking about. And at one point he goes, have you been. And they make Fun of him for that. It's really true if you've never been on the ground there. But from the comfort of your own living room, you think you've got the Middle east figured out. You have no idea what you're talking about.

[Pastor Brett]

That's right.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And a pastor in Atlanta said this a long time ago. I've stolen it a thousand times. The further away you are from a situation, the simpler the solution seems. The closer you get to it. You get to real names.

[Pastor Brett]

You know they're humans.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Correct.

[Pastor Brett]

These are human beings.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Same thing with everybody. That's. Everybody's fighting about ice and all that stuff right now. From the comfort of your living room. Boy. It's easy to pick a side as I'm praying with a girl tonight from South Africa who's married to a guy in the Navy and he's deployed somewhere. And she's here and she's trying to get her immigration stuff together so that she can go on a mission trip with us to Costa Rica. And it's a mess. Dude. Now all of a sudden you're like, your battle lines have a face and a name and they're 1122ers. You know what I mean? And so just be real careful with all of your neat opinions from the comfort of your couch because you don't know a soul. You don't have to pray with these families. It doesn't impact you at all. But you can have an opinion of something happening in Minneapolis. You know.

[Pastor Brett]

Yeah. And there's people there. And there's a lot of people who need Jesus.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

A lot of people.

[Pastor Brett]

Yeah. And if that's not our first priority is to get people the gospel.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Amen.

[Pastor Brett]

And everything else is secondary to that.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Correct.

[Pastor Brett]

It may be important, but it's secondary to that.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Praise God.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

And aren't you glad that the gospel transcends all of those differences?

[Pastor Brett]

Amen.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

And it is the focus that we're supposed to have, which means we don't have to focus on those other things instead.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And God has got of order. And I'm low on all those things. Man. Praise God for Romans 13 and. But you always also got to lay Revelation 13 and 19 on it. So. Yeah. There is. You know, God has established governments and yet Revelation says the government is a riding on a dragon. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Pastor Brett]

I've been thinking a lot about that and it lines up with what you shared tonight about. And I'm sure we'll get there. In regards to people who claim I'm a Christian but they don't follow Jesus. Right. And I've been thinking a lot about, like an interesting paradigm by which to think about what it means to be a repentant, blood bought, born again follower of Jesus. Paul calls us an ambassador of Christ. And so we are first ambassadors of God's government. First. That is our identity. His kingdom is that we are ambassadors of God's government. And so my priority is to be lined up with and advocating for the priorities of the government that I'm an ambassador for. And that is my, my primary responsibility and my primary call is to be an ambassador of God's government. I just think when you think about God's kingdom, when you use the word government, it just lands a little different in our context. A democratic republic, like what we live in, like.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So what's happening right now though? You got a bunch of atheists quoting Bible verses to keep Christians out of government. Make you dummy. What's going to happen in a few weeks in our study in Matthew is John the Baptist starts railing against the government, gets his head cut off for it. And nowhere does Jesus say, you know, you got a little too political. Can I give you a verse that hopefully will challenge our American audience? Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi. So we should be in Christ Jesus at America. If you were first in America and at church with Jesus, you got it totally backwards. You're our first allegiance is to King Jesus. He is the king of kings and presidents and parliaments and whatever. And don't get that confused. Now that does not mean that we bury our head in the sand when our government does evil things like call it health care, to murder babies in the womb, you go to war, you know, but because the other also means.

[Pastor Brett]

We support our government when they are doing things that line up with God's government.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, you. Yeah, 100%. You be a good citizen until you can't be a good Christian.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

There you go. You said a line tonight, Pastor Joby, about the light shining bright in the darkness when the darkness is darker. And this metaphor is in those two passages from Isaiah. And I wanted to sit in that metaphor for a minute because, I mean, have you, have you had a random casual conversation with somebody? I just feel like I'm in darkness, you know, I mean, so that image, what's that image all about? And put it into our context because we don't necessarily use that language a lot.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

First, John is going to double down on that man. He's like, man, if you're in the light. How can you walk in the darkness? A lot of folks feel like they're in the dark because they got one foot in the dark and half a foot in the light. And there's a bunch of people, a bunch of people that just have dual allegiances, and you don't get to do that in the kingdom. It is first and foremost to Christ. But again, man, too many of us try to conform the gospel to fit into our idolatry of comfort. And no wonder things are dark because you're. You're. You've been conformed to the pattern of this world. And so Jesus says, repent. You got to change the way you think about this stuff, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

[Pastor Brett]

Yeah, I think the illustration holds up a lot because, you know, you're. You're born into darkness, and the world is a dark place, and. But you're also born with your eyes adjusted to it, you know? You know, you can get into a dark room, and eventually your eyes are going to adjust to it.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You ever go to a matinee and it feels like midnight? And then you walk out the exit door to the parking lot, bro, it's almost like you kind of need that lobby. You walk out, you're like, oh, it's offensive to your face. You're like, oh, man. That is the light of the gospel. If you're living in darkness.

[Pastor Brett]

Yeah. Sadly, I think there's a version of Christianity that's like prescription glasses that is. That's just trying to help you adjust to the darkness a little bit better. And that's not the prescription that Jesus offers you. He offers you a completely different room. It's like a completely different house that is fully lit up. That Jesus comes and yanks you out of the darkness and gives you a completely new paradigm by which to live your life. It's a totally different world.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

This girl comes up, a mom and expecting again, and she's like, I'm struggling with this because I. I've got this business, and I really want it to grow, you know, But I. But as a Christian, can I want that, you know, or no? She said, as a Christian, I'm not supposed to. Well, I was like, who told you weren't supposed to want that? The question is why the why behind it? I pointed her to Ruslan's book Godly ambition, because Philippians 2 says, do nothing out of selfish ambition. Jesus is pretty dang ambitious. He'll save the world, bring heaven to earth. That's ambitious. But the question is why? And So I just started simply with this. Are you trusting me with your first and best? That's step one. Because if you're not, your whole life is already out of order.

[Pastor Brett]

No doubt.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Get that in line and then come talk to me. Because if you were God, would you trust you with more if you haven't been faithful with what he's giving you? Now, if you just want to grow it for your own namesake, that's the pride of life. If you just want to grow it so you can get you some more stuff while you're robbing God, bro. That's the. That's the lust of the eyes. Like, so it's the why behind the drive. Is it selfish ambition, or is it godly ambition? Because this is from Ruslan's book, the Three Parables in Matthew 25, the Parable of the Virgins. Parable of the talents. If you don't make the talents, God gave you five talents, and you don't invest it and double it. You can't do the parable of the sheep and goats. You can't feed the poor because you don't have any resources. So the reason. One of the reasons that you're about the kingdom and you do everything to the glory of God is if he decides to trust you with more, it's because you're trustworthy to be about the kingdom business, not just lying in your own pockets. Mm.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah, I thinking about that, too. Like, you know, if you talk to somebody who's lost, I don't think. I think the condition of their lostness makes them unable to know. I'm in darkness. And Jesus says that, right? Talks about being blind.

[Pastor Brett]

It's all you've ever known because you.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Think you're not blind.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You are, you know, so there was this. I had an incredible opportunity this week. I was hunting with a Project Savior outdoors guys in Beesville, Texas. This guy named David and his wife Michelle have been richly blessed. And they are the picture of being a conduit of the blessing, not a cul de sac. They this incredible ranch they host. They basically have created their own military ministry. And that's how they got connected with Project Savior Outdoors. And they want to expand it to pastors, and it's just like, come and rest and relax. And Dragic is baptized like seven guys in the pond there. I mean, it's bro. Okay, so they're a good example of godly ambition. He owns all kind of businesses, and he builds every fence in Texas. So he's doing good. A lot of fences here. All right. While we're in the blind, his daughter. And this is. You can really get to see a little bit into this man because his daughter is in law school and she's sending her dad a text saying, I'm sitting on a plane next to this guy from India, and he's asking all these questions like, why would a good guy, God send people to hell? And, you know, just kind of all the things. She is clear. She's saying, this is what I'm saying. She's clearly sharing the gospel. And he's the guy saying, what do you think? And I go, well, she's killing it. But. So he's like, here, just text her. So I go, hey, Pastor Joby, you're doing a great job, but I just need you to know this. Salvation is the Lord's. And what you need to be saved is need. Because if you don't know, you're lost. A map is of no use. If you don't know you're drowning. A lifesaver is of no use. If you're blind, light is of no use. And so until the Lord softens that heart and he realized, until that guy realizes, oh, I'm poor in spirit, I need somebody to do for me what I can't do for me, then he is just going to have these humanistic objections to why he. If there is a God, he should be okay. But it is the awareness of our sin, the awareness of our depravity, the awareness of, oh, I ain't got this right. That is the beginning of salvation. And that's the thing. You can't make somebody. Now, then I encourage her like crazy, because regardless of whether he gets there or not, you are doing a good gospel work. And you could tell she's in law school, bro. She had this incredible, like, response with a. She knows a lot of Bible, too.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So. But what. You can't convince somebody. You can't convince somebody they need a Savior if they don't know that they need to be saved.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah, I noticed that. It. It seems like a repetition, but in verse 16, the people who are dwelling in darkness have seen a great light. And for those dwelling in the shadow of death, on them, a light has dawned. So do you see the two. The two things he's saying about the light? That it's not just the. You're going to get your eyes adjusted. No, the light is dawning now right in front of you, and you're going to be able to see it.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah. And like, quite literally, Jesus is going to personify this Verse. Because the light just moved to town. This isn't like a light of. Now I understand theological realities. This is literally Jesus is called the light. And the light just moved to town, to this places that before he got there, were dark.

[Pastor Brett]

And I think part of the metaphor. Jesus goes on to say, I am the light of the world. And then you'd run all the way out to the new heaven and the new earth. It says that there's no more need of sun because the Son Jesus gives it light.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yep.

[Pastor Brett]

And so somehow he lights the whole thing up with his presence and praise God for it. And the thing about people who are new to following Jesus, seeing and receiving the divine revelation of grace is like, when I was a kid, when I was in high school, I've never been a morning person. I just don't like them. I've never. No matter how many times I've tried, it's just not my thing. I get up in the morning like any grown person does, and I do things. I just have never liked it. I hated it when I was a teenager. And if I could go to sleep at 3am and sleep till noon every day, I'd do it. And certainly when I was a teenager, I was testing this out. But my dad would leave for work, and he knew that if he didn't come wake me up, I'm gonna roll in late to school. It just is what it is. And my aunt happened to be the attendance lady, and she just generally felt bad for me and treated me special. So I probably could have gotten away with it. And. But what my dad would do, I'd be dead asleep, dead asleep. And my dad would come in and he'd start flipping the lights up and down, singing the Old Rugged Cross just as loud as he could. And he couldn't sing for nothing. Couldn't hit a tune in a bucket. So while Bill just be flipping a light, and he'd just stand there bellowing this song until I got out of bed. And then once your feet hit the floor, I'm up now, you know, And. But the. It didn't matter how many mornings we went through this. And I knew exactly what to expect. That when you're asleep or you're in the darkness and the light comes on, there is a period of time in which it's uncomfortable. It's a shock to your system.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, see my matinee comment.

[Pastor Brett]

Exactly. Yeah. And. And so I think that's a real part of becoming a follower of Jesus, is that your entire worldview and paradigm of thinking is Being shocked because you're waking up and the lights are now on. So I think the metaphor Jesus used it because everybody can understand it.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

It's interesting. If, if and when I do want to sleep in, I can't do this with Gretchen because the she. She wakes up too easy. But I'll just sleep with the windows wide open, not, you know, like, no blinds or anything. And it's amazing how good you feel when the light wakes you up. You know what I mean?

[Pastor Brett]

That's legit.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Another fascinating way to study. I forget who I heard this from. It's mine. Now that there's. There's three primary metaphors using the New Testament to talk about your faith or talk about the kingdom of God, light, glory, and knowledge. And those correspond to the three main people groups at the time. Right. So for glory, Rome treasured glory. The Greek audience treasured wisdom or knowledge. And then for the Jewish people, enlightenment or the light shining in the darkness is their preferred picture.

[Pastor Brett]

Where do you read all these? Where did you learn this?

[Pastor Ben Williams]

I don't know. I just said I don't know where that's from, but I somehow remembered it.

[Pastor Brett]

You not only do you have big hands, you got a bull brand.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Because you mentioned. Did you mention first John, he. He talks about the light was coming into the world.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Correct.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

He calls Jesus the light. So that connects.

[Pastor Brett]

If it's a dad's story, it's probably me talking about Wild Bill. If it's Bible, 99% chance that's pastor Joy.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Okay. I want to spend some time talking about the calling of the disciples. You mentioned Pastor Joby. Jesus wanted to build a team. That's such a great convicting. Like, do you have a team around you? Because Jesus did it. So let's get into a little bit of like, what was you mentioned they were probably like, it's over for me to follow a rabbi. So when he walks by and says that, I don't think the casual reader would know like, what that all carried the way that that carried. And so what was different about his. His call to them.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah. In a society built all around the temple, in the synagogue, dude, the highest holy calling is that you would get that you could apply to follow a rabbi. And you made it in. So I know it says he left their father, but you don't see any animosity from the dad. And now I do think it'll preach that if Jesus is your king, then the approval of your parents is not your highest priority. You do honor them. But based on everything I've Read about Hebrew school in the first century. I think the dad would be like, go boys. A well known rabbi is picking you. And I don't know if I forgot to say this or not, but typically when you graduated Betman Rash and you went to Talmudine saying, you put together your application and you sought out a rabbi and asked, can I please follow you? And he would test you and then you would. It's like getting into college. Either yes or no. This was more like you're a five. Well, they were like no star football recruits, but they got recruited. Jesus chose them. They did not choose him. And so this is, and, and man, this, this is blue collar guys. They've been out of school for a minute. They're working for their dad. So this is totally the reject, the jv, the B team, the not good enough that you don't have what it takes. You're not in the gifted class.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Even that little detail embodies the gospel. Right. Like that he's coming to them. Probably, probably very unusual.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But. And that he saw him. And I love the idea. I don't. I mean, you know, he sees Peter. He can see it all. He can see when he's going to deny him. He can see when he's going to try to stop Jesus from going to the cross post mountain of transfiguration or no post Cesare of Philippi. But ultimately he sees what God had in store for Peter when God decided to create Peter.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And I love that man, God, he sees so far beyond where you're sitting right now and he sees what he has in store for you. And we can't see it. Yeah, I don't think we'd be trusted with it. I think if we could see too far down the road, then we wouldn't walk by faith and we'd always be trying to manipulate circumstances to get there. And there is a myth because you are here, not there. And if you get too focused on there, then you won't be faithful here.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

I sometimes wonder if God sees you all the time as you will be well in Christ.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You have the imputed righteousness of Christ and he's not going to be surprised if you become a Christian.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Right.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So again, it's like, I don't know if you've already seen the movie and then you watch Star wars, you know what happens to Luke, you know what happens to Anakin and you're not surprised, right?

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah, it almost in English, it sounds a little bit like a play on words. They were fishermen. And he says, I'll make you fishers of men. And you said a comment, kind of a side comment. You said a couple times. It wasn't like he was saying, okay, none of that mattered. I'm gonna then take those skills, talk a little bit more about that. Like, how did he grab a hold of these guys who had a certain skill set and say, these are the ones that I want? Like, there's probably more there.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

My favorite illustration he used is the Life of David. So David is a shepherd in a pasture, and he could have thought that was punishment. And the whole time he's in the pasture, that's preparation. He learned to play the harp. Worked out good for him. He learned to be good with a slingshot. Worked out good for him. He learned to be a protector of sheep. That worked out good for him. And little did he know that God was using all of those seemingly menial tasks to prepare him to be a king. Same thing in our lives. Whatever it is, let's say, you know, whatever your major is, whatever your family history is, God is at work in all of these things for his glory in your life. These are not wasted things because they're going to. I mean, think about it, man. They work all night. And if you look at the two passages back to back, one set are casting and one set is mending. It's not a stretch to be like, that's evangelism and discipleship happening right there. That word to mend nets means, like, to make them whole, to make them complete. And so these guys are really good. Like, they work hard, they stay up all night. Right. They cast nets and then they mend nets. Well, that's going to be their ministry for the rest of their lives. They're going to share the gospel, throw a big, wide net, and then they're going to help people put their lives together in Christ as disciples, sort through what they catch.

[Pastor Brett]

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things I just throw on. One is that a fisherman in the first century, like, this was not. It was not a vocation primarily for them. It was just their way of life. Like, their whole life was just built around fishing and the fishing industry, where they lived, where they chose the people that they ran with, the whole. So it wasn't like they went to work and then came home. Like, everything was, you're a fisherman, there are times you had to go home and eat and go to sleep. But their whole life was built around.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Be like, if you're a farmer today.

[Pastor Brett]

Exactly.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You don't clock out, and you have.

[Pastor Brett]

To learn how to fish. This is why Jesus calls them and spends 3. 3 years with them, teaching them how to be fishermen. It's something you have to learn. They learned it from their fathers. They learned it from in their community. So it's the same thing. To follow Jesus, you gotta learn how to follow Jesus. You're not gonna know how to do it all right on the front end, you gotta learn how they. The key to being a good fisherman is that you have to go where the fish are to Pastor Joby's point, Go where God's at work. One of the things God clearly gives you eyes to see when he indwells you with his spirit is that you begin to have senses and instincts and discernment to see where God's at work. And you want to go toward it because that's where. That's where the good fishing is. You know, Another one is you got to learn the tools like you go out fishing. Didn't you go fishing one time on the Nile with a water bottle and a string?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, it was terrible.

[Pastor Brett]

Yeah, because you don't have the right tools.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I caught one little fish. It was about. We needed the feeding of the 5,000 to feed the four of us in the boat.

[Pastor Brett]

Yeah. Yeah. So we're doing this pastor's conference in Africa, and Pastor Joby takes a couple of our pastors that were with us out on a. A boat, and it's like a little hand motor canoe in the Nile river, and they're going fishing, and they get out there, and the guy hands him a Aquafina bottle with a string tied to it. Like, you don't have the right tools. And so Jesus was giving these guys the right tools to use if I wish to be fishers of men, which again, is one of the reasons you want to be a thriving, flourishing, active part of a local church is to constantly be getting the tools and to be getting those tools sharpened. Another thing is that catching fish is the point of being a fisherman. Right. And for us, as not about the clothes you wear. It's not about the clothes you wear. It's not about the amount of comfort that you attain for yourself. It's not about happy all the time. But if you catch fish, you're gonna be happy. And the catching fish is the point. And so I think that's important because it's like just fishing alone is not the goal. Catching fish is the goal. And that's the win. That's the win for the believer. That's the win in the local church. That's the win for all those who are called by God is that we would. God would use us to help catch fish and that we would draw a great net.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah. The pendulum and church talk right now is swinging way back away from the seeker sensitive movement. And, boy, there are some serious shadows to the seeker sense of movement. As we talk about here, the. You know, the question people often ask is, is the church for Christians or is the church for lost people? And the church is for God. Okay, so first and foremost, but lots of people right now saying, the church is for church people, the church is for Christians. They'll talk about Ephesians, that our job is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. But all true.

[Pastor Brett]

And for what?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

To come to a book club to learn more for the sake of knowledge? No, it's so that you can be equipped to make disciples. So if you're not making one, I think according to Jesus's definition, you're not one yet. So to. I use the football analogy. Are you a football player? So do that with fishing. If somebody were to say to you, are you a fisherman? And you were like, yes, I have Costas. I wear Huck T shirts. I watch the fishing channel. But if you don't go on a boat and catch fish, you are not a fisherman. You were just fishermen adjacent. And there are a bunch of people that are Christ adjacent because they. They. They go to church, they listen to me talk about it, they might get a verse of the day on their phone or something. They're just not doing the thing that Jes. The first thing he tells his first disciples is, not follow me, and you'll be saved. Not follow me, and we'll go to church together. Not follow me and we're gonna sing songs. It's follow me and I'm gonna make you fishers of men. And so anybody that tries to divorce those two things, the Great commission from discipleship is totally clueless. It's sort of like I'm just trying to get in all the trouble I.

[Pastor Brett]

Can to take us with you.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So all the. All the people, like, just be America first. I just. To all those my friends out there, I go, cool. No problem politically. Okay, then what's second? Like, so what? Because it sounds like America only. So if we are blessed as a country, I get it. I'm for laws, I'm for borders, all the things, right? And I don't think we should be in all these entanglements all over the world. Why, though? Why? It's so that we could be In a position to help people in need to. So that more people could live in dignity, so more people could be free. If you don't have to sow that there, you're going to fall into a big hole of just worshiping at the idol of self. It's kind of like that here. So follow me. And I'm going to make you fishers of men. And then I've said it 10,000 times and it works really good with our vision statement. The greatest way to deepen your walk with Jesus is get real serious about other people discovering theirs. It changes everything.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You'll read the Bible better. You'll apply it better. The accountability of leadership changes. Like, you get real serious about sharing the gospel in your office and all of a sudden your lifestyle will pop up in your own face and be like, I might better watch my attitude because I know I've been trying to share the gospel with these people. Now if. Or you talk to somebody that's got questions about the Bible and all of a sudden you read it differently because you're not just reading it so you can feel the way.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You got to understand it so that you can explain it away. And so it continuously. So the best I am pro discipleship. Obviously the whole sermon was about it. But there's. There's a. So that on the back end of it. Just like the blessing of Abraham. Right. And it's not grow closer to Jesus so that I just feel better about him. It's so that I can be about his great commission.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And that's make more disciples. In so doing, you'll abide in him more, you'll buy in his word more, you'll pray more. Everything's your need for him will get greater and greater and greater the moment you realize, here's somebody I love that's lost and he is the God of salvation. And you put those things together and your depth of need, your depth of desire to grow as a believer and all the spiritual habits won't be about you anymore. And that's when you're perfectly positioned to really be close to him as a disciple of Christ.

[Pastor Brett]

You're so right. I mean, one of the great tragedies of the modern church era is that somewhere along the way. And I'd love to go back in time and figure out where we did it. But somewhere along the way, we separated evangelism and discipleship as two separate programs.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Right.

[Pastor Brett]

And we began to create them as programs in churches. And the evangelism was for the.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

For.

[Pastor Brett]

For the evangelism people and discipleship was for, like, the mature, deep people. And we separated out evangelism and discipleship. The New Testament just never does it. It never does it. And their entire denominations now that the whole thing is just only what they call discipleship and holy huddle. And, you know, that we just believe that we serve a God that loves to save people and that he's still in the saving business. And what richer, deeper, more meaningful discipleship is there in my own life than to see somebody's heart and eyes filled with the. An encounter with grace.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Amen.

[Pastor Brett]

What's better than that?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And he loves for his kids to know him better. And you'll not know him unless you know his word better and believe true and right things about him. He loves that. Know. Honestly, I think a lot of that just had to do with. We divided up people by personality types. We said, extroverts, go get them. Introverts, y' all go to this class. And then we put Christian terms on it. But it really wasn't about. It was just like, y' all like people and y' all like each other. And we're going to call that evangelism. And this discipleship, it's kind of crappy.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah, it is. It is a kind of a natural or. You hear that a lot. Like, you mentioned the girl sharing her faith. And people, when they say, I need to share my faith, what's the main thing that they say keeps them eyes. I'm not ready. I don't know enough. Or somebody's like, man, I want to do this thing, this kind of ministry thing. It's like, well, I just don't know that I'm prepared already. So there is something in us that thinks something has to happen before I'll be ready. But what you're saying is.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But what I actually see is the person that's going to share their faith does learn what they need to.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Exactly.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You know?

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Right.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I mean, it's great. It's a girl in line tonight, and. And she had a friend lose a loved one. And she's all. She's like, what do I tell her about? Why do bad things happen to good people? I did not go into the theological problem with that question. And I was like, I don't really have an hour, but if.

[Pastor Brett]

If you.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

We have resources. I said, do you think she listened to a sermon? I was like, sure. I go, okay. If the tomb is empty, I can't remember which week it is. It's called the Mountain of Transfiguration. You're going to encounter this man. This is I believe, help me overcome my unbelief. And I deal with it there. But see, that girl was trying to get equipped to answer questions that she currently doesn't feel equipped for. And she the reason that she didn't feel equipped is because she never felt like she ever needed that. But now and I love this love for her lost friend is compelling her yeah. To say let me go help find some answers then to bring to the friend. Because again, not only is it true that you need need for salvation, you kind of need need to be about the kingdom business. You know, Totally.

[Pastor Brett]

There's a this Philippians one, you referenced the very first part of it earlier, which is fascinating because I've been, it's just been wearing me out lately in my own life. But one of the things as you go down in Philippians 1, Paul starts talking about people who are preaching Christ from envy and people who are preaching Christ from jealousy of his ministry. People who are preaching Christ out of all these impure jacked up motives. And I think in our context of our conversation, you could add in that there are people who would share what they do know about Christ even though they don't have all the answers. You do know that there was a man who claimed to be God, who said he had the power to forgive sins, who died on the cross, said it is finished. Somehow that counted for you. He didn't stay dead three days later he resurrected. Somehow this changes everything about everything about everything. And it can change everything about you. If you're a Christian, you know that some version of that. And so and Paul goes on to say, whether in pretense or in truth, he says what I care about is that Christ is proclaimed, is that Christ is talked about. And my favorite version of it says if Christ is talked about, I'm going to be glad about that. And I think that in regards to I don't know how to share my faith. Maybe you don't know the full counsel of God. Me either. Maybe you couldn't share the face your faith as detailed or as accurate as Pastor Joby can I get it. That said, you can talk about Jesus. Talk about what you do know and what you, what you do know about Jesus. And if you're talking about Jesus, even if it's in pretense or it's not fully baked, I'm glad.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Right.

[Pastor Brett]

I'm glad. Talk about him.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Yeah. It's like imagine somebody came to you and said one year from now your spouse is going to have a Heart attack. So you better learn how to do cpr. You know, like, you'd be like, I better figure it out, you know, but it's for the use of. It's for putting it to use for someone you love.

[Pastor Brett]

If I could teach you right now how to live. If you do this, you have to memorize this and do it every day, and you'll be guaranteed you'll never have cancer. People go wild. Wild. And this. We're talking about something on a far more enduring, eternal scale.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

I want to close with asking about the thing you closed with that. Jesus had those three things he was teaching, he was proclaiming the gospel and healing. And, you know, his ministry starts to explode at this point.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I didn't want to add. He was. He was proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom. Amen. So that's not less than what we typically. When we just say the gospel, we're typically talking about the gospel of salvation. But his was encompassing. See, like Ray Cortes, that saturated a bunch of years ago. Most Christians only believe half the gospel because they leave out the imputed righteousness of Christ. This was first and foremost the rule and reign of Christ in your own life as the propitiation for your sin debt, which leads you then to push back darkness and bring heaven to earth. And his rule and reign is everywhere you live. It's a. It's a more holistic. Actually, what he's doing is he married evangelism and discipleship.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Right, right.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

In the Gospel of the Kingdom.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Well, that's what I was going to say is, you know, we're. We have talked about verse 17 a lot, and we will. And the. Those three things, I wondered, how do those go together? You know, repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. And then you see those specific examples of what Jesus was doing, and it sounds like just the outworking of that message.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah. And I think a lot of times, I mean, I think the order matters. Like, the first thing he did is teach and proclaim the kingdom of heaven and heal. And I think a lot of times we inverse that. Like let. We elevate meeting physical needs first and proclamation. Especially these days where, like, preaching can be entertainment and then teaching is last. And Jesus did it the other way. He, like turned the pyramid upside down. Yeah, but I love it, man. People in all kinds of needs just came to Jesus. They just came to Jesus. They didn't go to priests. They didn't. They just came to Jesus and he healed him and cast out demons and all the things.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

I grew up, I Grew up in like a real safe non denominational church. And then suddenly I didn't know why at the time I was early teenager, we started going to a like charismatic renewal church. And this is a pastor who was very dear to me and he came out of the Southern Baptist because he's like, I want to just, I want to get after it with some just praying for healing, all that kind of stuff. And he would always say at the end when he would be doing like the invitation, he would say, just come, just come. That's what Jesus is saying to you right now. Just come.

[Pastor Brett]

What a powerful.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

It's so simple, but it's so powerful. Like just. Don't you feel drawn by that simplicity of like he just has come to me.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I didn't say it on Thursday night, but I hope to add it Sunday. Mark 3:13. It just says he called to himself those whom he desired and they came to him. I think a lot of people need to hear he wants you.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Amen.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Like he desires that you would come to him. You don't have to perform. There's not like a, there's not a tryout that all that he desired came to him. And man talked to guy online tonight and he's like, when you, when you said the thing, he sees me, I just felt like all week he didn't see me because this guy's struggling with addiction. He's like, I just relapsed. I had like six months of sobriety, drugs and alcohol and I just relapsed. And first time he's ever been here. And I was like, dude, it's a pathway of destruction. The enemy's trying to kill you and Jesus wants you regardless of your sin this week or whatever.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Amen. Amen. Well, that's all we have time for. Pastor. I want to just have you close and thank you again for that reminder that taking a next step is what it means to follow.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, no doubt.

[Pastor Ben Williams]

Don't be a stander.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And you gotta, you gotta throw down your net scout that I don't what's comfortable. Speaking of which, Pastor Brett, will you update us on our new service times.

[Pastor Brett]

7:22Pm on Thursday, which in a lot of our campuses, specifically our San Pablo campus, is pretty full. The parking lot is absolutely full and overflowing. And 7:22am, 9:22am, 11:22am and at certain campuses, 4:22pm and so you can check COE2.com for your service times and if you regularly attend a 9 and 1122 service, specifically the 9am service and you call 1122, your home church, you're a regular attender and your campus has additional service times that aren't 9am Please move to one of those and make room for one more, please.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

The caveat we would give is that there's if the 922 works best for your kid because that's where have middle school service and stuff like that. By all means. What we're trying to do is get all the.

[Pastor Brett]

We're talking dozens of people, not thousands.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, yeah. All the empty nesters and all the college kids and all the, you know, whatever. Then please drop your nets what is comfortable and be a part of the team that is trying to fish for people.

[Pastor Brett]

Amen.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah. We pray for us. Yeah. Jesus, we love you because you love us first and God. May we repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. May we be followers of you that consistently take steps because we realize the moment we got rescued, we became a part of the rescue team. Pray it in Jesus name. Thank you for listening to the podcast the end. You nailed it.

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