B (1:58)

Yeah.

C (1:59)

Really gifted. I mean, really gifted. You know, she led worship for us for a decade or so, and then mom life kind of took over, and it was the best thing to raise kids. It's a lot easier for me to find another female vocalist than another mom of My children.

B (2:15)

This is true.

C (2:16)

You know, so that was good. But then you started writing for. What did you start with? Like a staff. Women's staff thing. I mean, something. Right. And then, honestly, I didn't know you had that in you. And I. And she would ask me to read over them, like, for, like, theological edits or whatever. And the amount of time and effort and, like, the content is so good. And I know I'm so biased. So this is like your grandma telling you good job when you tell your wife, good job on this. But I'm just telling you, if it wasn't awesome, I wouldn't have asked her to do it. This is like maybe the third round of these. And I just thought it'd make a lot of sense. If I'm yelling at the men for seven weeks or whatever, it'd be cool to have a female's perspective to females. But I listen to them every day. And I've been traveling extra a lot. So when I get up in the morning, I just hit play, and Gretchen talks to me, and that's great.

B (3:07)

So you're experiencing what a lot of people experience with you. Like you're listening to Gretchen's voice, and that's what a lot of people, when they wake up, hear your voice. What was the hardest part about writing them?

D (3:22)

These were the most challenging for me of, you know, I think I've done saturated and then leading up to Easter than 40 days. And the most challenging part was I. The lack of content that I had to go on because I wrote these back in the spring and summer. They had to be in by beginning of August. And so, you know, I just said, joby, I need to know what you're going to preach on, because I have to do five days of devos for each sermon that you do. And so he just kind of mapped out what he was going to talk about and all. And really, I was basically going on the scripture for the week of his sermons. And so I really. That was the most challenging. And of course, the content is very challenging, you know, when you're trying to turn something that's for men into women. And. But it's been a blessing for me. It really has. Like to see the fruit of it.

B (4:20)

Well, they've been awesome. And we're just so grateful for your voice. Not only for the women, like you said past Joby, but. But for everybody. And if I may, Shameless plug the women's encounter coming up, kind of. Not really, but it's May 8th and 9th, which I don't Think we've even publicly announced the dates, but save the date marker calendars from May 8th and 9th. And Gretchen is gonna be there on one of our panels in the main session, which will be so fun and we're so excited for you to be there. And I'd love for you to share a little Pastor Joby about the women's encounter. Our heart behind it as a church. Like this isn't just a side group of women putting on this event. This is us as a church.

C (4:55)

Yeah, this is great. And, and it's not, I wouldn't even, I wouldn't call it a women's conference. It's an encounter. We run all kind of encounters and it's, it's all led by us. So all the folks are have a first degree relationship to 1122. You know, either have been on staff or members or are on staff now or, you know, all those kind of things. And so while it's open to everybody, if you're an 1120 tour, you should sign up really quick because we have serious space issues.

B (5:27)

Yes, we do.

C (5:28)

But I love it. What I love about it, when you guys first came to me and we're like, hey, we're gonna do this women's thing, I was like, it can't be a women's conference. And what I mean by that is it can't be a bunch of women just telling each other how beautiful they are without serious challenge and discipleship, you know, and so that's what it is. It's just digging into the word. And we were traveling last year and Gretchen, we listened. She listened and I overheard the whole thing. I don't know where we were.

D (5:55)

We were out of the country because it was, I was listening at really weird times of day.

C (6:00)

You guys killed it. It's so good. I'm, I'm so happy as the lead pastor to give you the green light, you and that team to just, yeah. Keep this thing going. It's really, it's really great. And I do think because of things like that, the way the women have been discipled in this church is the reason, a big reason why the Stanford men is going as good as it's going all year, and particularly this series. Because like I've said, I've said this to so many pastors. I've got exactly zero emails from women in 1122 saying, what about us? Because godly women don't ask what about me?

B (6:33)

Right.

C (6:34)

They say, how can I help? You know, and that doesn't mean we don't have things for them. Of course we do, because we're a movement for all people, men and women. But it just says a lot about the content of character and maturity of the women in our church.

B (6:48)

For sure. And you're going be there, too. You're going to do a little opening encouragement at the women's encounter. So, yeah, no signups available right now, but we will obviously tell everybody when. When it is. All right, let's get into it. This was the love week. Love is. We covered First Corinthians and first, before we get into the text, y' all have been married 20 years.

C (7:12)

25.

B (7:13)

25. Yeah.

D (7:15)

We're old.

C (7:15)

Wow.

B (7:16)

Quarter of a century.

D (7:17)

Yes.

B (7:19)

Okay. So, you know, after reading First Corinthians, 13, studying it, preaching it, writing divos on it, and you look at your 25 years of marriage, what are just some of the things that stand out over the course of time, over the endurance and what you've built on in a marriage? What stood out to you in the text that we read and studied this week?

C (7:40)

Gretchen.

D (7:43)

On how much we are crushing it. No, progressive sanctification is a big one in our marriage and how we are growing and learning each other, and it doesn't stop. And you don't ever get to a place where you really fully know someone you know, and you're constantly learning, and that's a good thing.

B (8:11)

You.

D (8:11)

You're constantly studying your spouse, and you're constantly learning about your spouse. And when you stop doing that, I think that's when things go wrong. Yeah.

C (8:21)

We really dig each other. I mean, like, I'll. I'll get all weepy if I just talk about her a little bit. And 25 years, it's better now than ever. And we just like each other the most. Of all the people I know, genuinely.

D (8:35)

Yeah.

C (8:35)

Had the most fun, all those things. No matter how mad we get at each other, which happens, I mean, for sure happens, we make up good. We have a hard time keeping a long record of, you know, unforgiveness. And a part of that is from day one, we've definitely had highs and lows, but the idea of love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. That's us. Like, we ain't getting divorced. We better work this thing out, you know?

B (9:07)

Yeah.

C (9:07)

And when that is your foundation, because of Christ's love for you, then you can really swing for the fences, you know, it actually helps you to, like, have honest dialogue about what's going good and what's not going good. And so the. Hopefully I'm growing in my sanctification because here's what's. Here's what's hard. The. The, like, love and emotion that I have in my heart couldn't be more the attraction that I have for her. The. It's just through the roof. You know what I mean? But the Bible doesn't say love is handsy. Love chases you around the kitchen and love tells you how pretty you are all the time. And that. That's not what it is.

D (9:55)

Yeah.

C (9:56)

And the reason this was the hardest for me to write a chapter on and to live out is of all the things that the Bible lays out that love is like, these things are not my wiring. I don't envy. That's the only thing. Like, honest to goodness, no matter. Like, I've never looked at Gretchen and be like, gosh, I wish I could have what she has. You know, I only celebrate when things go good for her. But pretty much all the other ones, man, I am. I'm on the street struggle bus, you know, but we know we're in this thing together. And the man, I'm. I talked to a bunch of dudes. I mean, a bunch that's really sad. And they're telling me all about their marriage and how it's not going good and what she's not doing. And the sad thing is it almost always boils down to, like, a couple of things these guys aren't getting. One of them's always sex, and the other one's some, like, sandwiches or something dumb. Seriously. And I will just ask this question. Hold on one second. I'm like, do you love her? And you would be amazed at the, like, non emotive, very biblically grounded. Start going to Hebrew words about helpmates and stuff suitable for him. And I'm like, wait a second, bro. Wait a second.

D (11:22)

Yeah.

C (11:23)

I don't know what to tell you because.

D (11:26)

Yeah.

C (11:29)

I just love this girl more than I've ever loved anybody. You know, kid, love is a different. It's just different category. But without her, I'd. Oh, I just can't even imagine.

B (11:42)

Yeah.

C (11:43)

And so when you got that thing, you can figure out all the communication techniques and the love languages and all that stuff only works if you actually love one another because, you know, Jesus loved you first.

B (12:02)

Yeah. You know the saying, love is a choice, not a feeling, which is true, but feelings should also be there.

C (12:11)

The normative emotion around love is the Song of Solomon. If Galatians is what is normative in regards to freedom. And Romans is normative in what righteousness is. Song of Solomon is normative in the scriptures about the way you feel towards one another. So if you don't have those feelings in your marriage, he has a choice and all that kind of stuff. But that is an abnormal thing. The book starts with her saying about him, let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth. That's the opening line of the book.

B (12:43)

Right.

C (12:43)

So if you ain't got that. Bro.

D (12:46)

Yeah.

C (12:46)

This idea that it's just a choice and you got to endure. Oh, man. Bro, what a. That sounds miserable. Now. It's not. You don't lead with the feeling, but if you ain't got the right feelings. Yeah, it ain't. That's gonna be rough. And so those feelings are a result of.

B (13:00)

Right.

C (13:01)

If you could do these things, like be patient and kind and don't keep a record. Wrong. And not demand your own way and not envy and not boast and. Okay, then normal, semi healthy human beings without an extensive amount of trauma that hasn't been dealt with in the past or something like that. You should love each other. And it includes. It includes agape, which is like a sacrificial kind of love. It includes filet. O, like, I just like you the best. You're my buddy. We laugh a lot. We have a good time. And eros, which is where we get the word erotic, which would be the whole song of Solomon. All of those things make up what love is in a healthy marriage. Good.

B (13:38)

Gretchen, anything you'd add to that?

D (13:41)

I think the feelings that you get, the feelings of love are a byproduct of the sacrificial love that you pour out. Yeah, that's good, you know, because you don't wake up in the morning and think to yourself, how am I going to sacrifice today? I mean, that's not something that people usually. It's a selfish thought is one of your first thoughts, right? What. What's in it for me today? Like, what am I doing today? But the sacrificial part of it is a lot harder. And it's not something that's not our default as humans. Sacrificial love. And so I think when we do that, and I think we just become overwhelmed and overpowered with a Christ like love that is so overwhelming that the feelings flood us. You know, like my feelings for Joby and all the other ways and all the other kinds of love become so much more powerful because of that. Sacrificial love.

B (14:38)

Yeah. I actually wrote a quote down from your diva. I actually think this is in a future day. So it depends on when you are listening to this. But I don't know how all that works. But yeah, you said sacrifice is simply saying today isn't about me. And I think no matter what, whether it is in a marriage, of course marriage is the primary relationship that we're thinking about when we look at this text. But I think just approaching life that way, if we, we are supposed to be embodying love. I love that simple thing. Like if I can wake up every morning and just remind myself, today is not about me.

D (15:16)

Yeah.

B (15:17)

How much better. Like what?

C (15:18)

That.

B (15:18)

What will that posture do as you walk through your day?

D (15:22)

That's right. That's right.

C (15:24)

Well, in John 13, when Jesus. John says, Jesus, knowing all authority in heaven and earth had been given unto him and that his hour was near, he demonstrated his love for the disciples and he got up from the table and dressed himself as a servant. It wasn't about him that day. He washed their feet. And then I said, I have set for you an example. You'll be blessed if you do likewise. So you're right. We've talked about this before. When it's not going well between us, we have chosen selfishness over serving. And then you get this like death spiral because she's thinking I don't do enough for her and I'm thinking I deserve more. Whatever the thing is. And then sometimes we get like this snowball of service towards one another. Like we were talking about this the other night. Oh, I think we listened to what? Yeah, we listened to one of her devos together and she gets down, we're in the car going somewhere and. And it gets over and I was like, just sounds so easy. Like, and we're having such a good day. We're actually going to get her a ring. So we're 25 years and I upgraded. She's had the youth pass ring.

B (16:28)

Great day.

C (16:28)

Yeah. Yeah, great day. So. So we're just kind of. We're. We're. I mean, we are pinged over here on the Gratit. We were like, can you believe our life? We have a great marriage. We have a crazy awesome church. We got healthy kids that love Jesus. Can you believe we're going to see a friend of ours that's a jeweler Shout out clay nettles in St. Augustine. We should get sponsors. This deepen brought to you by Nettles Jewelry. I don't. We. We don't. But seriously go there anyway. So we're just, we're just pegged over here on gratitude and it's hard for us to imagine how we've ever been in a sp.

B (17:03)

Right.

C (17:04)

You know what I mean?

D (17:06)

Versus if we were in the middle of an argument or a spat.

C (17:11)

Right.

D (17:11)

And we were listening to that, what would the enemy be trying to tell us? Oh, that person, he's not doing that. He's not doing those things that you know.

C (17:19)

Correct.

D (17:20)

Yeah.

C (17:20)

Which is why in the beginning of this, I have to say I'm not doing these things very well. And if I have to be a black belt in everything I teach, I mean, I only get to teach like three things out of the whole Bible. You know what I mean? I could do the faith over fear sermon every week or something. But so it's crazy. It really is that, you know, and so the, the more you can. I mean, that's what Jesus said in humility, considered others better than himself. And our attitude should be just like that. He lowered himself, he made himself a servant. When you do this in marriage, then in every relationship it just goes better.

B (18:00)

Isn't it the kindness of the Lord to give us these finite minds that you are able to like, how could we ever be. It's like childbirth too. Like right when it's over, you're like, yeah, I'd be fine if I did that again. One year later you're like, should we do it again? I don't really remember. You know, it wasn't that bad. Yeah, it couldn't have been that bad. Look bad and yeah, just the kindness of the Lord. That we do have limitations as humans for our own good, probably so that we don't remember every single thing and we're able to forget some of the wrongs that we can live where we are right now. We talked about patience. Love is patient. How does someone work on patience?

D (18:44)

Don't pray for it.

B (18:46)

That's what they say.

C (18:50)

That's the best example of, you better abide in Jesus and trust him to produce this patience in you. Think about how silly, like if I was, I was like, you look stressed. What are you doing? I'm trying to be more patient.

D (19:04)

Well, I don't know if it's something that you can attain that way. Right?

C (19:10)

Correct. I think you can watch your mouth. You know what I mean? I think every time you feel impatient, you could bring that to the Lord in prayer as a trigger, like positively. I'm going to use this non godly thing to remind me that I need to bring it to him because the Lord is patient. I think you could memorize scriptures about the patience of God towards you. I think you could study the character and nature of God and his patience. I mean, the only reason Jesus hasn't returned is because of the patience of God. That all might hear things like that. But this is not a thing that you can manufacture. It's a fruit that has to be produced from the inside out. John 13, I mean, John 15, excuse me, Jesus says, abide me and I'll abide in you. Par for me, you can do nothing. So in regards to your question, if you don't get close to Jesus, you cannot be patient.

B (20:05)

Yeah.

C (20:05)

And so it becomes a byproduct.

B (20:09)

Yeah. I think, and I think it's really interesting you talked about in Greek, patience means to take a punch.

C (20:14)

Yeah.

B (20:14)

Which I don't think we really think about it like that. I think we think about it like, I don't want to stand in a line or you know, your examples of I want to pass the car in front of me or always does it.

D (20:27)

Mean to take a punch and just not reciprocate or not?

C (20:32)

Yeah. Endure suffering.

D (20:33)

Just endure it. That's what it means.

C (20:35)

That's when it, yeah, because you know, Greek and Hebrew are like, especially Hebrew, but it's like a word picture language, you know, and so it's that, it's, it's the, the, it's the passive action of love towards people that are hard to deal with. That's what, that's what patience is.

D (20:53)

Yeah.

C (20:54)

You know, and, and the, the Hebrew, in Hebrew, when the Bible says that, that God is patient or long suffering, it literally, it says he's long of nose. Which means, like you've heard me talk about it before, like these emotions begin to stir. But before your nostrils flare at somebody, he's going to stretch that out as long as he can.

B (21:17)

Yeah. We also talked about it's not irritable or resentful. And I think, you know, of course this series is on men, but particularly I think with women, irritability is a really big thing. I was just talking about it this morning in disciple group with a woman. I mean she's incredible and loves the Lord, loves her husband, loves her kids. And she was sharing this morning, she's like, I just, I feel irritable all the time.

C (21:49)

Like how old is she?

B (21:51)

Probably late 20s, early 30s.

C (21:53)

No bueno. I'm going to. Let me just step in it. I think there's a thing going on right now in the life of middle aged women that it might be one of the most dangerous things in the world that you can just act Crappy and call and blame everything perimenopause. I never even heard of that until, like eight minutes ago on Instagram. Now it's every post, you know what I mean? Or whatever the thing is. And blame what the Bible says you're not supposed to do and be like, well, it's not my fault. Because now men do it too. Like crazy, right? Men will blame it on work or whatever the thing. But the moment you do this, this is dumb. But you'll remember, man, when you blame, you just be lame. And it is a lame thing to do. Doug Field said that at a sermon here. That is. It is a very lame thing to do. It's what Adam did in the garden. It's not my fault, it's her fault. So whatever. And when we do that, man, we're giving ourselves an excuse to walk out of step with the gospel, with God's call in our life. And so irritability is a problem. It fundamentally comes down to James 4. 1. Why are you irritable? Or what causes fights and quarrels among you? It's because you didn't get what you wanted. Is that the most childish thing you've ever heard? And then Paul's like, quit acting like a baby. That's what babies do. They're irritable, right? When they're hungry, when they're tired, and when they got a messy diaper, so are you. Or somebody takes your toy away. That's crazy, right? I'm irritable when I don't get my way.

B (23:23)

Yeah.

C (23:23)

When I don't get treated the way greeted, the way I want. You know what I mean?

D (23:26)

We get comfortable in our irritability. I think just like a toddler gets comfortable walking around in their poopy diaper, and they'd rather go hide from their parents and play in their mess.

B (23:39)

That is the phase we're in right now.

D (23:41)

Yes. Which is like, you would feel so much better if you would just come to me. Right? But they get comfortable in their mess, and they go behind the couch with their toy, and they just kind of look at you like, are you gonna smell me soon? Are you gonna come get me?

C (23:56)

Because they don't analogy ever.

D (23:57)

They don't want to get uncomfortable because you got to take the diaper off and then it's cold and all the things. And they don't like the wipes and whatever. So really, that's us. And I think this might be confession time. This might be my hardest one. I am easily irritated by everything, and mainly my family, the people that live in my home. And it's because I'm not getting what I want or things aren't done my way, you know? And so I think I'm comfortable in that irritability instead of just letting go of it. Of the things that.

B (24:34)

Yeah.

C (24:34)

You begin to tell yourself, I deserve to feel this way.

D (24:37)

Yeah.

C (24:38)

That is not love.

B (24:39)

Right.

C (24:40)

Like, you're not loving. I. I do the same thing. Mine is more on the, like, respect side. You know what I mean? Like, I just. It.

D (24:49)

Yours is more like, if y' all would just do what I say, which is true, everything would just go better.

C (24:54)

The problem with that, which is, here's the thing. It's. Honestly, it's true. And I've gotten to the seat I am because of that. So what is what will help you win in one arena? You know what I mean? Like, at work, if you were at work and you were the boss. No, no, no. It's terrible to act that way. When I act that way. That's what. That's the trick of the enemy is he'll take a strength and make it a big fat shadow, you know? So, like, around here, I give a lot of orders and people say, thank you, Pastor. And, you know, and then it does not do good at home. It doesn't. It casts shadows. And it's not good. It's not loving. And I try to be loving at work, too. It's not like I can be mean at work. But that's the thing you gotta. That's what's tough is love practiced plays out in every relationship a little bit different.

B (25:48)

Yeah.

C (25:49)

You know.

B (25:50)

Yeah. And you can't just solve for one thing. Kind of goes back to the abiding thing. Like, I really do feel, even with irritability, I think we use the word even, like, for. We almost try to use it as a synonym for anger, too, Especially with women. Like, oh, I'm just irritated. Like, no, you're struggling with anger.

D (26:10)

Frustrated.

B (26:10)

There's a root there. And the way we root that out is the abiding relationship with Jesus. And so it is interesting. Like, none of these things are suggestions. These are commands.

C (26:22)

Yet they're impossible to achieve individually when you love somebody. Like, when I can sense that Gretchen is irritable, well, the worst thing I can do is then pick on it, because I know she's in the wrong.

B (26:34)

Yeah.

C (26:35)

And oftentimes people will do that to one another, you know, because they, like, they want to be righteous, not in a good way. And so I've also learned in 25 years. Gretchen is like a diesel engine. If the first time, like, even if she's been up for an hour and I just come out of the bedroom, I'm like, hey, what's up? She ain't ready for it, man. You just kind of got to be in the room for a little while. And honestly, it. It helped. Her and JP have very similar personalities, and she helped me with this a lot. I think I mentioned this before. I used to get ticked when I would pick him up from school. Hadn't talked to him all day, and I was like, how's your day, pawn? And he's looking out the window. I'm like, dude, I wanted to throw him out the truck. You know, the life you have that I provide, you ought to be skipping into this truck saying, thank you, dad, that you show, you know? And she was like, you got to just give him a minute. Well, it took me a while to figure out I got to give her a minute, too. So Peter says, husbands live with your wives as unto knowledge. And so knowing who you're married to or. And this is true in every relationship, is you. You've got a. Again, just like you quoted is. Hey, it's not about me. Sacrifice is simply saying, it's not about me. And so I want her to do a cartwheel every time I walk in the room. And I know that she needs a little bit of time to, like, warm up.

B (27:53)

Yeah.

C (27:55)

And if not, it can be a little irritating. So here's the thing, too. If somebody is irritable, it does not give you an excuse to be irritating. You know, it's good. Yeah. Because you love them more than you love you in that moment.

B (28:11)

Yeah.

C (28:12)

Yeah.

B (28:13)

And I do think a lot of us just walk around with this. You know, Pastor Britt talks a lot about this. Like, sometimes we don't even realize that we just are living in a. In a low level of angst or irritability, and we think that that's normal.

C (28:28)

All right. So oftentimes as deeply rooted in some. I don't want to overuse the word trauma, but some event where there's been a lack of forgiveness and unforgiveness festers the bitterness. And bitterness ferments to this, to resentment. And when something ferments, two things happen. It stinks, and you get drunk on it. And so, I mean, if you think about somebody that lives in resentment, it looks like they're smelling something that stinks all the time, you know, and they get drunk on their emotions and feel like they deserve to feel these Feels. And then a lot of people, especially men, don't want to deal with it because this is the excuse for their bad language, their bad behavior, Them popping off at the mouth all the time. Them, like, I just have a short fuse. Nah, dude, somebody hurt you somewhere, and that's still an open wound. Like. Like, if I had a wound under this sleeve and you bumped into it, you would see an excessive amount of emotion. Like, whoa, what's wrong with your arm? Because I barely bumped into it and you're screaming, if you bumped into my healthy arm, it wouldn't be a problem. And so if you bump into some area of your life and there's just an excessive amount of emotion, the reality is nobody can make you feel those things. There's just circumstances that reveal those things are inside of you, and that's undealt with. Usually something maybe terrible happened to you, but you didn't deal with it. You didn't offer forgiveness and cancel that debt so that that wound could heal and you could move on.

B (29:59)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think this sermon in this scripture is gonna. It pokes kind of right in the wound, right?

C (30:07)

Yeah.

B (30:07)

Which is a good thing. It kind of. It's the same like the baby analogy. It's painful and it's messy and it smells and it's gross.

C (30:15)

But you got an excuse.

B (30:16)

But the end result, once you clean it out, once you let the Lord poke in it and clean it out, the end result is healing. But that's hard to get to.

D (30:26)

Cause we have a lot against us in this world. We live in a world that worships feelings, and it's all about feelings and what makes you. You do what's good for you and what makes you feel good and what's best for you. Don't worry about your neighbor or your husband or your k. Know, Let them deal with their own feelings. It's not about sacrificial love. It's about what's in it for me. I just think we. We live in a world that worships feelings.

B (30:52)

You said right at the end, God is love, but love is not God.

C (30:57)

Fact.

B (30:58)

And. And the world right now wants to say love is God.

C (31:02)

Yes.

B (31:03)

How you feel?

C (31:04)

Love is. Love is what they'll say.

B (31:05)

Yeah. Yeah. Which I just love how you. You worked through the whole thing, and, you know you're kind of wearing us out on each one as you do. But then you get to the end and you flip it and you're like, okay, put your name in. Right? And you're like, well, I can't get too far. And then you put God's name in and it's perfect, and it's perfect. And I even just sitting there. Because something happens when you study God's word that's alive and meets you right where you're at. And why, when we approach scripture, is it so important to make God the center of it versus us the center of it?

C (31:46)

Because the verdict comes before the performance. And most of us, our whole life. And I mean, what other arena do you receive approval before you ever try? Right? You don't even in your job, you don't. Or so part of the reason, I think I always go back to that story of the third baseman scooping the sand up is so good. Like, I was so aggravated and I know that's what I look like to heaven, right? And God's so pumped that I'm on the field. You know what I mean? His mom was so proud. Like, she was just so glad he was there. And that literally is how he's not waiting to the end of the sermon tonight and give me a grade to see if I want his approval or not. He's already placed his approval upon us. When you know that when you have that kind of security, when you can be loved, when you are the beloved of God, it positions you to then love because he first loved us. And that's what matters so much. And there's no thing other than the gospel in the world that supports that. Now we know that with our kids, even though they're still. You should never tell your kids you're disappointed in them because it's so anti. Gospel. I've talked about that before, but in actuality you are, because you did expect something and they didn't live up to it. You're like, what are you doing? But. But that is not how God feels for us. Because, and, and I mean that rightly feels like his feelings toward us is that he loves us. He. He's put his love on us. He put his name on us. He imputed us with his righteousness. So. So the reason that we love is because it's not because we earned it. And, and so the more we could be focused on that, then the more we can love like he loved, the more we can be patient and kind because he's so patient. Kind with me.

B (33:36)

Yeah.

C (33:37)

You know, it's interesting in, in some parenting moments, one of the things that will help you a lot when it's little, it's different when your teenagers make decisions and you're like, oh, you know, better have one Quick. And maybe you and you and Wes, probably saints, y' all probably never dealt with this. And then we'll do a little bit like, you remember when you were 16, 15, 18, you know what I mean? Like, they might be doing better and way better than we're doing. We're doing pretty good now, you know for sure. JP sent us a text not too long ago, and he used the phrase the sanctification process, and for whatever that un. That unlocked some grace. And Gretchen. And Gretchen's a rule follower, you know, and she's actually just the way the Lord has wired her. Right and wrong just because of right and wrong just mean more than the average human. Okay. But that. That gave her a little bit of insight into. Not everybody checks the sanctification boxes in the same order, you know? Yeah. And the only way you get there is because when you put yourself, you know, it's kind of like that one time I'm yelling at him, if you would just do what I say. Do you not understand? You have a dad that loves you, a mom that loves you. We give you everything you need. If you would just do what I say, your life would be great. And I was tell him again, you know, and then I was like, what? God could yell that at me all day long.

B (35:08)

Yeah.

C (35:09)

And so it'll help you love, because you know that. I mean, I don't just make a bad decision every once in a while. I reject the God that died for me, sometimes for my own flesh. I worship idols, you know? And yet he relentlessly pursues his rebellious kids.

B (35:31)

Yeah.

D (35:31)

So if you think of it like, I put this in one of my devos this week, and I can't remember which one it is, but to love sacrificially means to love when it hurts to love. And think of a time when it has hurt to love. You know, it's to love when it doesn't make sense to love. It's to love when you can't, when you aren't being loved back. It's to love when you know no one else will love. It's the opposite of selfish. So you put in each of those little things. Think of a person or a time when it hurt to love, or it didn't make sense to love, but you did anyway, or when you loved, but you weren't being loved back, you know, or you loved someone when no one else would love that person.

C (36:28)

That's really good.

B (36:29)

So good.

C (36:30)

Yeah. Like, all right, so we've been married 25 years, so as a gift, I was Going to upgrade Gretchen's ring. Right. And so we got the rock in Belgium. How long ago? Somewhere long time ago. A month ago, Two months? I can't.

D (36:46)

It's been a long time.

B (36:46)

Long time ago.

C (36:48)

No, but, but like we're supposed to get it, get, come back. Clay Nettles is going to like set it and, and she's like, hey, I'm looking at your schedule and I don't see a time where we can do this until next year. So I'm just gonna have to go by myself. And I thought, nope, no. So I'm hosting a pastor's retreat at the retreat center this week with the biggest churches in Acts 29. Honestly, a few years ago, I mean, some of these are like people, you know, I mean, they're my friends now, but they're like the famous people, you know what I mean? And I was, I was just looking through and I was like, well, I can just tell those jokers and I'll be there a day late. Because she wasn't even complaining. She was just talking about the reality of my calendar right now. And I just thought, that ain't good. So I'm gonna tell some other people no. And they mean a lot. They don't mean what she means, obviously, but you know, and I'm hosting the thing. Like, it's like, come stay with me. That's the thing. Yeah, but I just did it because I love her more and it's. And that's, you know, she's my wife and I did. How dumb would that be to be like, yeah, go get the ring, I'm gonna get you on your own. You know what I mean? So love does stuff, not just feel stuff. Because none of my feelings changed and she knows that. But you gotta. I love the way you described sacrifice. I didn't even think about, like, if it doesn't cost you anything, then it's not sacrificial love. And again, the cost, obviously loving my wife is. I mean, it's a no brainer than sitting in a meeting with pastors, whatever. But still I was like, I'm telling y' all no, so I can tell her yes, right?

B (38:39)

Yeah. I just was having lunch with one of our newer staff members and she was telling me a little bit of her story and I think this is kind of the other side of the same coin because y' all are into each other, that much is clear. And she was telling me a story about her and her husband got married really young, 21, and within the first year of marriage they Started fostering twins. They knew they were not following the Lord at this time. They knew foster care would be a part of their story, but their marriage was in complete shambles and they both stepped outside of their marriage and they were gonna separate, but they didn't wanna lose the twins that they were fostering. And so they said, okay, let's just stay together until we officially adopt them and then we can separate. But if we're gonna stay together, we're gonna just get plugged into a church. And they get plugged into a church and it saves their marriage. And now they have a flourishing marriage. They just moved to Jacksonville. They have the twins, she's pregnant. And she was just telling me, tears are in her eyes. She's like, I can't believe where. And I thought about, like, when you said it has to cost you something. Like they didn't want to stay. Right? Like they. But they knew and there was a cost to it and they stayed anyway.

C (40:02)

So. So the example that you're using is actually a, A, A shad. A foreshadowing of the gospel of a gospel centered marriage. So theirs wasn't a gospel centered marriage, but they had a greater love than their own wants and needs that drove them to stay together.

B (40:19)

Yeah.

C (40:19)

Okay, well, you just replace foster cares with kids with Jesus and you got it right, right. You know, and you can get it all. Yeah, yeah, it's good. And that, I mean, that really is it. Here, here's the thing, too. If you're in a struggling marriage, just love your wife. And I don't mean the feelings. Remember that old goofy movie Fireproof? I never thought so. It was. It was. My apologies to the people that made Fireproof. It was great. It saved a lot of marriages. The idea was this. Man and woman are about divorce. I think it was a fireman or something. Something. Maybe it was Kirk Cameron. I'm almost positive it's Kirk Cameron. He was in all the Christian movies. He was the only Christian movie actor.

D (40:54)

Do you know who Kirk Cameron is?

C (40:55)

Until Jim Caviezel? Okay, so anyway, he was in Left Behind. He was in all the things. So. So the premise of the movie was like, something like, all right, before you leave her, will you take this, like, 50 day challenge? And basically, you might not feel like you like her, but you're going to do the things that love does. You're only going to say these words. You're going to clean up the dishes, you're going to serve her, you're going to write her a letter. You're going to forget, you know what I mean? And I mean, dude, sometimes it's just chicken and egg. Like, which one comes first? Do you feel the feels and then follow through, or do you just go for it and you just do things that love demands? And then you're like, well, what do you know? We actually like each other. So that's a big part of what this is.

B (41:42)

Yeah.

C (41:42)

Yeah.

B (41:43)

Okay. So for the. The people listening who are. Have walked through divorce and, you know, maybe they read this scripture at their wedding and now they are looking at their life like, how did I get here? Where did they go from here?

C (41:57)

First and foremost to Jesus, you know, I mean, cuz without him, you got nothing. Like, your marriage doesn't complete you. Like, you could have, whether you're married or divorced, if you have not love and primary and love, meaning that God is love, then you got nothing. Or you could be married for 50 years and have a fat house and all your kids are healthy, and if you got love, you got nothing. You know, so even if he doesn't give you what you want, is he enough for you? I mean, that really is what it means for him to be first and best in your life.

B (42:32)

Yeah. The encouragement you would have.

C (42:37)

Yeah.

D (42:37)

It's hard because you look at marriages where neither one are walking with the Lord and it's a train wreck because they don't know how to love like that because they don't have Christ in their life. Or a marriage where one is walking very strongly with the Lord and doing everything in her power to make it work. And then he's just not acting right. He's not walking with the Lord, not acting right. He's going outside of the marriage. And it's hard. It's just. It's just difficult. But you just continue to love Jesus, lean into the Lord, love your husband as long as he'll allow you to love him. And then, I don't know. It's hard. It's a very difficult situation.

C (43:23)

Yeah. God's intention is that people would get married and never get divorced.

D (43:26)

Yeah.

C (43:27)

And the reason somebody got divorced was because of sin, Period. There was no divorce before sin.

B (43:33)

Right.

C (43:34)

And I think it's Matthew 19. The Pharisees come up to Jesus and they're like, all right, Moses says that you can just write a certificate of divorce for whatever you want. So what say you? When is it okay to get divorced? That's what they ask. And Jesus doesn't talk about divorce. He talks about marriage. He says, have you not read? So he doesn't play into the sociological fight that was going. There's actually two camps of rabbis. One was conservative, one was liberal. One said the only way you can get divorced is because of adultery. And the other one was like, he was quoting Deuteronomy 24 and he was saying if she burns your toes, that's you, you can divorce her because she's a help mate for you, suitable for you. So if you don't think she's suitable then. And so the, the, the legalists were trying to get catch Jesus. So, so are you liberal or are you conservative in regards to the two camps today? And Jesus is like, I just read the Bible. Have you not read? And he just takes it back to God's intention for marriage. Now I'm going to try to beat up on divorce people. I know a lot of very wonderful divorced people here and I know some people that it, it was their fault and they are walking with Jesus and they have confessed their sins and the, the blood of Jesus has cleansed them of all unrighteousness. And I know some very wonderful people and their spouses suck and sinned against them and they're divorced. And you know, I love what Pastor Jim Bergen said here. Man, in the kingdom of God you don't need a second chance. It's the blood of Jesus. And from now on. So what you do if you're divorced is you let the blood of Jesus wash you clean. And from now on you just do what the scripture says do because God loves you. And God's plan is always best. Because when the disciples Hear this in 19 Matthew 19, I think that's what it is. Peter's the only married one. You know that all the others are single. You know this because when Jesus says, hey, we need to pay a temple tax, you had to be over 21. And Peter's the only one that has to pay it. And we know that Peter's mother in law gets healed, so he's a grown man with a mother in law, which means he has a wife. And all the other disciples after Jesus takes them back to the intent of marriage, that what God has joined together, let nothing tear apart. And they're like, it's probably better to not get married. He's like, you understand the gravity and the heaviness of the vow that you make. Our culture doesn't, you know, we hook up, shack up, repeat and then break up and then repeat and then wonder why our marriages don't make it. Yeah, but the statistics on marriage in regards to people that attend church regularly are actual Christians and pray. It's almost bulletproof.

B (46:15)

Yeah. I'm so glad you said that tonight because it gets very skewed publicly because of people who check the box of being Christians. So then it's what you said. Like, it looks like the divorce rate is the same in. In the church and outside the church, but it's just not true.

C (46:31)

Thinking about, you know, what our attendance is, I wonder what our attendance would come in at if you just surveyed the Southeast and just said, who attends 1122 regularly and didn't define anything. Yeah, like 200,000 people. You know what I mean? It's not actually that.

B (46:48)

Right.

C (46:48)

Yeah. Same kind of thing, Right?

B (46:49)

For sure. All right. So then he talks about he. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child, I reasoned like a child, and I became a man and gave up childish ways.

C (47:00)

Gut punch. I've never seen that verse in the context of Stanfordman act like men. And he was actually. So if you just do the opposite of these things, if you're impatient and unkind. You're childish, is what he's saying, which.

B (47:16)

I feel like is kind of like the most emasculating thing that you can say to a guy.

C (47:20)

It won't be a baby.

B (47:21)

Yeah.

C (47:21)

Like you're being a baby.

D (47:23)

But it's so true. I mean, what?

B (47:25)

Very true.

D (47:26)

Like, aren't your kids the most selfish people on the planet? Right. Because they don't know any other way to be.

B (47:31)

I wrote down every word you wrote that they were impatient, jealous, rude, selfish. Yeah.

D (47:37)

Yeah.

C (47:37)

That's what they demand their own way.

D (47:40)

Yep.

C (47:40)

I mean, all the things.

B (47:42)

Yeah.

C (47:43)

Envious. Yeah. So. Yeah. So it hit me like crazy because, so. And especially in the series. Okay. This is like the. The first bunch of weeks is so fun, you know? Come on, we're. Stand firm. We're gonna, like, man, you. You come against me. Sword, spear, and javelin. We beat our chest. We're like, let's go. We're not gonna abdicate our responsibilities. We're in. You know?

B (48:04)

Yeah.

C (48:04)

Cool. And. And you think the chest beating. You do need to chest beat when you're standing in front of an enemy on behalf of your family.

B (48:13)

Yeah.

C (48:13)

But if you don't learn how. If you're. If you're. If you. If you don't know how to be tough for and tender with, and you're just tough in both directions, you're acting like a baby. I'm confession, man. I'm just telling you, I have a hard time shifting those gears, you know, when I Feel disrespected. I act like a child. I like a child. I have a tendency to.

B (48:41)

Well. And I just. There's like no in between. Right. Like, it's. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways and so.

D (48:49)

Period.

B (48:49)

Yeah.

C (48:50)

Yeah.

B (48:50)

There's child and there's man.

D (48:52)

Yeah.

B (48:52)

And.

C (48:53)

And children make excuses.

B (48:54)

Yeah.

C (48:54)

And men take responsibility.

B (48:55)

Yeah.

C (48:56)

So here's the thing. I've actually heard it taught. I'm not going to say about who. Very famous preacher. And he was like, what it means to act like a man is. Is don't be a woman. And he talks about all the difference between men and women. That's not. It doesn't mean that like a mammy's. Don't be a boy.

B (49:11)

Right, right.

C (49:13)

That's what it means. Yeah. That's very, very different, you know?

B (49:18)

Yeah. For sure. Speaking of babies, you got all Grandpa Joby up there.

D (49:23)

I know.

B (49:23)

Talking about the baby.

C (49:24)

Dude, that little baby could not. I mean, it's like.

D (49:28)

Of like a baby baby track. A baby button.

C (49:32)

I do love it though. I do. But I've never really liked babies. Now I'm just.

B (49:36)

Yeah, you're the baby guy.

C (49:37)

I love them.

B (49:38)

But as I want to take them.

C (49:39)

Home, I just want to like. I. I love the little families around here. I love the young families. One of the. One of the trophies of grace for me in living here since 2003 and ministering in one location and planning a church that has turned into a thing where people meet and marry and make babies and grow families. This is like fruit on the tree of our ministry. Not just salvations and baptisms, but babies, you know, So I. I'm generations.

D (50:11)

Right.

C (50:12)

You know?

B (50:13)

Yeah. But I will. When you say when you just take a minute from the sermon when a baby cries and you take a minute to say it's okay that you're in here and that your baby's making sounds. Cause babies make sounds. And that this isn't a performance that can't be interrupted. It is. It just. It means so much because when you have a baby and they disrupt like you immediately, you get so uncomfortable. And so I just. You don't have to say it. And the fact that you take a minute every once in a while to say it, like, it just makes moms feel. Really seen mom and dads. But it.

C (50:51)

And I'm not pandering.

B (50:52)

No, I know.

C (50:53)

I actually don't care what. I mean, I don't care what the mom. I'm not trying to win the moms over. I'm I'm not. I do want people to know. It doesn't bother me. It actually encourages me.

B (51:01)

Yeah.

C (51:01)

Now, if a kid's, like, throwing up everywhere.

B (51:03)

Yeah, sure.

C (51:04)

Going crazy.

D (51:05)

Yeah.

C (51:05)

You know, then I'm like, all right, but. But baby noises. Whatever. And here's what you know. When you're real young and, like, you see a baby coming on the plane, I go, no, but once you go through that, you're like, oh, poor parents. But you don't. It bothers actual parents. Zero.

D (51:21)

No.

B (51:22)

If anything, you want to tell them, like, hey, it's okay. Like, serious. Don't worry.

C (51:28)

It gets better. It gets better.

B (51:31)

Yeah, for sure. Okay. So final thoughts, final encouragements for the marriages and also just people. Because what I love about this text is, yes, it is for marriages, but it also is for our relationship.

C (51:43)

With our relationship. Yeah.

D (51:46)

So I. My favorite part of this, and we didn't even talk about it tonight, was. Is verse 12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. That's one of my favorite verses in the Bible. It's comforting to me in a way that I don't know if it's. It just. It brings me comfort because it's okay that I don't have it all together. It's okay that I don't know everything. I'm not supposed to know everything, you know? And, you know, when Paul did this, he said, now I see in a mirror dimly, because mirrors back there weren't like our mirrors, you know, they were like pieces of metal, and they were all distorted. But I will see clearly one day. And I feel like nothing's gonna be perfect. You're not gonna be perfect. Your spouse is not gonna be perfect. Your marriage is not gonna be perfect. One day we will be perfect in front of our Heavenly Father, you know? And that just brings me comfort, knowing that we are constantly working on each other, learning each other, knowing each other, loving each other more and more every day, and that, you know, that it's just okay. It's okay that. But, you know, we don't have it all together, but one day we will also.

C (53:11)

It's interesting I didn't do this in the sermon because I just didn't have time, but the Bible interchange the words to know and to love, Right? So Adam knew Eve, and she bore a son. Well, there's knowing and there's knowing. And so. And you can't really be fully loved if you're not Fully known. And oftentimes what we hold back from one another. The reason we hold back is because we're like, if you knew this about me, I know you think you love me, but if you really knew this, you wouldn't love me. And God fully knows you, even the parts you want to hide, and still chooses to place his love upon you. With nothing to hide, you have nothing. He knows all the things, all the darkness, all the doubts, all the fears, all the sin, all the wicked thoughts, and he loves you all the way. Yeah, yeah.

B (54:05)

It's crazy. And sometimes it helps to tell him. Like, I think we try to hide parts of ourselves and there is power in all those dark parts, putting it into the light, confessing it to the Lord, because he already knows it. And you'll find freedom in it.

C (54:24)

So I don't share a lot of my personal prayer time here based on what Jesus talks about in Matthew 6. Oftentimes the prayer I pray is why me? Not in the bad way. You know, oftentimes when people say why me? They're like, why did this bad thing happen to me? I pray the prayer why me? On the blessings, like why me? You know, and why do you love me? Why did you save me? Why did you. Why do you use me the way you view? Why do you give me a wife that loves me and healthy kids that love you? Why, why, why, why? By, you know, I don't deserve it. I don't. Like, I don't feel like my prayer life's good enough to get the blessings I get. I don't feel like there's so many things my thought life, all the things. And that the answer I sense is God just says, cuz I am love, like that's who I am, just like I am just. Therefore sin must be punished. Just like I am gracious, therefore I sent Jesus, I am love. That is who I am. And a lot of us think that God is irritable or that God is wrath. The Bible. God is wrathful, but he has to be stirred to anger. He just his. His natural normative disposition is love. Yeah, crazy, Crazy.

B (55:46)

Gretchen, will you pray for us? I will.

D (55:49)

Heavenly Father, thank you so much for your sacrificial love for us, God. We don't deserve it yet. Over and over again you show us your love, God. Go with us this week as we pour out our love to others, Lord. Help us to see your love in everything in this world, Lord, and help us to love like you loved. In your name I pray. Amen. Amen.

B (56:15)

Thank you for listening to the podcast.

A (56:23)

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