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Democracy Now! Audio
Actor Elliot Page on Growing Up Queer, Trans Identity & "Second Nature" Film Directed by Drew Denny
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- [00:04]
Amy Goodman
This is democracy now, democracynow.org, i'm Amy Goodman as we continue with part two of our conversation about a revolutionary new film. It's called Second Nature. It's narrated by the Oscar nominated actor, Elliot Page, the author of a memoir, Pageboy, executive produced as well and directed by Drew Denny. I want to go to another clip from Second Nature. This is on monkeys.
- [00:38]
Dr. Marcella Benitez
We're really focused on studying their cognition. How's the view? One of the studies uses these puzzle boxes. We're trying to get into the inner minds of these monkeys.
- [00:58]
Drew Denny
Crebossa's approaching the platform. Plato in contact with the apparatus. Proboscis. Reach in with the pull door. Reach in and grab the banana. He got his reward.
- [01:10]
Dr. Marcella Benitez
How does an individual who solves a box really well, how does that translate to the way they move through their social world? Do they make better choices socially? And then we can maybe get at questions of individual variation in their cognition. Maybe all capuchins are really good at this. But lets say one individual is a particularly good problem solver amongst sub adult males. How does that translate to his natural world? And I think that relates a lot to sexual behavior as well. Is there variation in how it happens? Do certain individuals engage more in it than others? We know that behavioral flexibility is critical. We need to be able to solve problems in changing environments. That's hugely adaptive. We know that. And yet sexual flexibility has been seen as something that isn't in fact adaptive. But if you can change your behavior to different environments, if you can make different types of cognitive decisions, why wouldn't it be adaptive to have a lot of flexibility in your sexual behavior?
- [02:13]
Amy Goodman
So there is a scientist talking about capuchin monkeys. Drew Denny, tell us about Dr. Marcella Benitez.
- [02:22]
Drew Denny
Dr. Marcella BeniteZ is a fantastic scientist studying capuchins in Costa Rica. And she's one of the people who's experiencing the downside of the cuts to sciences in this administration. And her research is truly groundbreaking. And also she's groundbreaking as an out queer person and a Latina scientist. She's one of the few people that her students can see as a mentor if they identify in those ways as well. And she knows from her experience of working in Ethiopia what it's like to be studying in a place where you can't be out, where it's not safe to just live your truth. And how that actually kicks a lot of people out of science because they feel too afraid to do the field research. There's actually a scientist who we filmed with who then pulled out of the movie because she works in a country where it's illegal to be gay, where it's punishable by death. And she might that be Uganda? And she said, you know, I'm so sorry, I want to be a part of this, but I'm afraid. And I said, well, of course we'll pull your footage out. We were supposed to follow her there. And it's just terrible to think that this information is being hidden because people are afraid to have their research shut down or to even be harmed or killed simply for being queer.
- [03:36]
Amy Goodman
I'm fascinated by the beginning of Dr. Marcelo Benitez that we didn't hear, but I watched in the film about what she first observed and what she was told when she observed it.
- [03:49]
Drew Denny
Yes. So she observed two male geladas engaging in a quite obvious act of same sex sex. And she was shocked because she had never been told that that could happen. In fact, she had been taught, like most people, that that couldn't happen, that it doesn't happen. And she looked over at her field guide and he said, yes, sometimes this happens. And she quotes him all the time because she said, he didn't say, oh, don't look at that, that's weird. That never happens. We shouldn't, you know, we shouldn't document that. He just said, yeah, that happens. And it completely changed her outlook because she realized that all the things she'd been told couldn't happen in nature or didn't happen in nature actually happen around us all the time. They've just been censored and kept from us.
- [04:38]
Amy Goodman
And again, what? She's a scientist at Emory. I'm fascinated that so many of these scientists are women and they are not in the majority of the scientific establishment in this country.
- [04:52]
Drew Denny
It's true. All the scientists in our movie are women, queer, trans, bipoc and immigrants. They identify in at least one of those ways. And the first thing I looked for were experts. They are the most credible experts in these fields. They happen to identify in those ways. And I think the reason that they ended up being the people in our movie is because they come from a different perspective. And so even though they were taught, like Amy was taught, that females could not bond with each other if they weren't related, she's a woman and a feminist and she knows, like the feminist movement is trying to make unrelated females bond and advocate for each other like sisters. So when she saw female bonobos engaging in that behavior, she called it what it was instead of trying to pretend that it's strategic.
- [05:39]
Amy Goodman
Male deference well, we've got the clip on the bonobos. And again, for people who don't know what bonobos exactly are, that they're as close to us as chimps.
- [05:48]
Drew Denny
Yes. Bonobos are 98.7% genetically identical to humans, as are chimpanzees.
- [05:54]
Amy Goodman
Let's go.
- [05:58]
Dr. Joan Roughgarden
So this is a group where the alpha female is named Jill. It's easy to tell who's in charge because they will immediately acquire the best food and other individuals have to make exchanges with that female in order to get the food. Bonobos aren't more of a close relative than chimps. Both of them are equally our closest relative. Yeah, I do. We last shared a common ancestor about 6 million years ago with both bonobos and chimps are each other's closest living relative. They last shared a common ancestor 2.5 million years ago. And their next closest cousin is the human being. We're 98.5% genetically identical to each of them. So here's two females engaging in some aggression and sex. So they're having a conflict and resolving using sex. That's called GG rubbing, or genital. Genital rubbing, which is observed ventral dorsal, so back to front. And now it's front to front.
- [07:07]
Amy Goodman
What surprised you most, Elliot, you're narrating this film, you're watching all the footage, and what were you most touched by?
- [07:17]
Elliot Page
I guess what surprised me the most was just how much information there is and evidence that really shows gender and sexual diversity in nature and how little of it I knew. And I was probably just so. I was so moved by how it shows the expansiveness, the intelligence and how adaptive nature is, like how exciting the thought of queerness in nature is. And, you know, and I think I was definitely affected by the backlash that you see these scientists have to have to deal with and take on, whether it's just, you know, people coming at them publicly or currently losing grants or what have you, when they're doing this, like, groundbreaking, essential work that hardly anyone's ever done before. And, yeah, that was, you know, sort of my big takeaways.
- [08:18]
Amy Goodman
I want to go to a final clip from Second Nature.
- [08:26]
Narrator
There are approximately 8.7 million living animal species on Earth. For centuries, we have been told that when it comes to gender and sexuality, all these millions of species follow a certain set of rules. We have been told, for example, that they can be divided into two rigid categories, male and female. We have been taught that males are naturally promiscuous, aggressive and dominant, driven by an insatiable urge to compete for the favor of females. Females, on the other hand, are depicted as passive and coy. They are uninterested in sex, but acquiesce to males in order to pass along the best genes to their young. In the story we've been told, sexual activity is a strictly heterosexual endeavor. Anything different has been dismissed as maladaptive and unnatural. But what if this narrative fails to capture the full spectrum of life's diversity? What if the animal world is teeming with variations and adaptations that transcend the stories we've been taught?
- [10:09]
Amy Goodman
That title, Second Nature. Elliot Page, what does that mean to you? That was Elliot, by the way, who is the narrator of the film Second Nature.
- [10:20]
Elliot Page
I guess when I think of, I don't know, second Nature, I think of, like, our. I think of instinct, and I think of trusting our inner knowing and knowing who we are. And I think of, you know, nature existing in this way that we try to project all our, you know, human baggage on. And that has. Has been, you know, wrong and incorrect and led by, you know, oppressive structures that uphold a cruel and violent status quo that serves a very few. And, you know, to me, second nature and leaning into our inner knowing of who we are and how we connect with all living beings on this planet, I think, to me, is my takeaway from it. Yeah.
- [11:10]
Amy Goodman
And, Drew Denny, you talk about clownfish changing sex from male to female. What? And back again. What happens?
- [11:21]
Drew Denny
So clownfish can change sex from male to female. The bluehead wrasse can change sex from female to male. There's many species who can change sex, sometimes in one direction, sometimes back and forth throughout their lives. It's pretty incredible, and it's not at all rare. So if you've been diving on a coral reef, as Dr. Joan Rough Garden says, you've seen sex changing fish.
- [11:44]
Amy Goodman
Explain. You've got to go further.
- [11:47]
Drew Denny
Sure. So with the bluehead wrasse, for example, if the male of the group dies, then one of the females will spontaneously change sex, so her ovaries become testes, and then he becomes the male of the group, and the females mate with him or make babies with him. So it's a brilliant strategy. And as Jeff Goldblum said in Jurassic park, you know, life finds a way. So I don't know why anybody would have thought that that didn't happen in the real world, because it's actually happening all around us.
- [12:20]
Amy Goodman
I wanted to end Eliot by talking about your book, your memoir, which came out a few years ago. I was at Town hall when you did one of your Q and A's, and I Gave your book to a dear friend. If you can talk about your growing up, put your interest in this film and narrating this as you talk about learning about what was considered anomalies in the animal kingdom to just facts of life for animals, what it meant for you to learn this. Your memoir is called Page Boy. Why you find it so affirming.
- [13:01]
Elliot Page
Yeah. Well, thank you, Amy. I. Yeah.
- [13:04]
Narrator
Where I.
- [13:05]
Elliot Page
When and where I, you know, grew up, there was no. I wasn't seeing queerness around me, you know. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Halifax, Nova Scotia, you know, 90s and early 2000s, and I wasn't seeing examples of queerness. And if it did come up, it was usually coming up in a negative way. And I wasn't growing up in, you know, affirming household at the time, you know, and so I did feel lost and alone or. And conflicted, and it led to a lot of honestly, negative consequences in my life, you know, that shame and that discomfort. And a documentary like this, which, as Drew explained, you know, was so much inspired by, you know, her experience where she was younger when she grew up, was to make something that would allow people to see that we are part of this world. You know, queer and trans people have always been here, will continue to be here. There's nothing wrong with us. And I think, yeah, being a part of this doc feels very healing, and I think it's for people, I mean, regardless of identity.
- [14:21]
Amy Goodman
Of course, you know, you write in page voice. Something in me knew that I was transgender. It was something I'd always known but didn't have the words for, wouldn't permit myself to embrace. You were only six when you asked your mother if you could be a boy. What did your mother respond at the time? And talk about what it meant, as you write in your book, that you felt viciously closeted as you grew up.
- [14:52]
Elliot Page
Yeah, my mom said, which I think at the time, she had no context for what this. Like, she would have never heard the term transgender. You know, I think she said, oh, hon, you can't. But, you know, you can grow up to do anything a boy can do, you know, and like that. And then later, really, any conversation with my mom in relation to queerness was pretty shut down and not something she. Well, I'll just say it, frankly, wanted her child to be. She's completely different now. We actually watched this documentary together when I popped up for Mother's Day, and that was a really sweet experience to have. And also, just like a woman growing up in New Brunswick, born in the 50s with those strict gender roles and, you know, all of the things this documentary, I think, goes into that speaks to my mom and her experience on this planet. But, yes, I felt viciously closeted, especially in my early 20s, entering sort of the Hollywood world. And it's, you know, it has really incredibly negative impacts on one's life.
- [16:00]
Amy Goodman
Did you become an actor because you wanted to be somebody else?
- [16:06]
Elliot Page
You know, I think there was most certainly, like, I kind of became an actor accidentally at, you know, 10 years old. But I think that it was definitely, I would imagine, an escape a bit from. From how I was, how I was feeling. And, I mean, you're just an actor.
- [16:28]
Amy Goodman
You're an incredibly celebrated, successful actor.
- [16:33]
Elliot Page
Oh, thank you. But, yeah, I think it's. It probably allowed an escape for me. And then it became something that, you know, really helped and saved me in some ways, and also something that became complicated in my life and my relation to it and how I was presenting myself to the world.
- [16:52]
Amy Goodman
You write in Pageboy, the world tells us that we aren't trans but mentally ill, that I'm too ashamed to be a lesbian, that I mutilated my body, that I'll always be a woman comparing my body to Nazi experiments. It's not trans people who suffer from a sickness, but the society that fosters such hate. How do you see this all now? And what do you say to young people who feel the way you do?
- [17:20]
Elliot Page
Yeah, I mean, as we're seeing this, the attacks against the trans community are getting, you know, worse. And that, you know, rhetoric that is spread and lies and awful propaganda about our community, that can be really, really damaging. Of course, you know, for me, it's about really, really holding on to back, to, like, an inner knowing and not allowing that noise to interfere with this joy I feel connected to in my life. And I hope for anyone who's sort of, you know, struggling in this time and the headlines and just to know, like, that you're, you know, not alone and loved and celebrated by so many and try and block out the noise from, you know, absolute vile losers who must just be so profoundly uncomfortable with themselves they can't handle that someone could get to a place that I think, you know, that, you know, trans people do get to, which is a level of self acceptance and understanding that I think is really beautiful and profound.
- [18:51]
Amy Goodman
And did you ever think, as we wrap up, that going through the pain that you went through, you could be a role model to so many?
- [19:03]
Elliot Page
Gosh, I mean, I think, you know, people have been such role models to me to get me to this place. So to know if in existing and sharing my story in any way helps people feel less alone, then you know, that really does mean the world to me.
- [19:18]
Amy Goodman
Elliot Page, Oscar nominated actor, also celebrated author for his memoir Page Boy, also executive produced and narrated the new film Second Nature, which was directed by our other guest today, Drew Denny. It's going to be at DCTV at the Firehouse Cinema starting this weekend. And I'll end with Drew talking about the scientists you're going to have over the week. I can't believe I'm going to be away with another film this weekend in Rhode island. But the minute I come back Sunday night, I'm going to be at our beloved Firehouse Cinema downtown in Chinatown.
- [20:05]
Drew Denny
We'd love to have you at a screening. We'll have Q&As every single day that we're there. Elliot's doing a q and A. Dr. Marcella Benitez, Dr. Patricia Rodriguez Brennan, Dr. Joan Roughgarden. We'll be there. We'll have members of our filmmaking team, so people will be able to ask all the questions they might have. And I just want to say also that the research in our film has been used and demonstrated to reduce self harm and suicide among LGBTQ youth. So though it might seem like a silly subject in the film, it's very fun and funny. There's actually a serious mission behind it because I know what it's like to be told that there's something wrong with you and you don't belong on planet Earth. And it might make you think that you have to look for a way out. But the truth is that we all belong here. And I hope that the more people that know about this, the fewer people feel like they have to look for a way out.
- [20:55]
Amy Goodman
Opening June 26 at the firehouse Cinema at Downtown Community Television. Drew Denny, director, and Elliot Page, executive producer and narrator of the new documentary the revolutionary documentary Second Nature. To see part one of our discussion, go to democracynow.org I'm Amy Goodman. Thanks so much for joining us.