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- [00:15]
Amy Goodman
From New York. This is Democracy Now.
- [00:19]
Donald Trump
Everybody wants that job. It's a very important job. Marty's a terrific guy, but he's going to go on and he's going to lead a good life.
- [00:28]
Amy Goodman
Under mounting political pressure, Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Dr. Marty Makary resigns from his position. Why did powerful Republicans and anti abortion groups want him gone? And how healthy is the federal health system overall? We'll talk to Dr. Aaron Kesselheim of Harvard Medical School and Public Citizen Dr. Robert Steinbrook then the fight against AI data centers isn't just about tech. It's about democracy.
- [01:05]
Astra Taylor
Across the country, from Oregon to Georgia, an incredible populist bipartisan movement is rising up to say no to the AI takeover. And they are clocking win after win. They are extracting concessions from big tech corporations. They are blocking data center development, and they are passing moratorium and fighting for an AI pause at the state and national level. This is opening up a new important front line in the fight against tech enabled authoritarianism.
- [01:35]
Amy Goodman
He'll speak with writer and organizer Astra Taylor. Finally to Wisconsin to look at the case of Salah Sassoor, president of the Islamic Society of Milwaukee. He's been locked up in an ICE jail in Indiana since late March. We'll speak with his son and one of his attorneys.
- [01:57]
Karim Sarsour
The word give up isn't in the Palestinian dictionary, and today we carry that and we say the word give up isn't in our dictionary. We will keep fighting for him until justice prevails, until he's up.
- [02:12]
Amy Goodman
All that and more coming up. Welcome to Democracy Now. Democracynow.org, the War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. The Pentagon's comptroller testified on Capitol Hill Tuesday the cost of the war with Iran has risen to about 29 billion doll, $4 billion from the figure provided two weeks ago. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth also refused to tell lawmakers at the hearing how much emergency funding he will be requesting to cover the cost of the war, despite repeated questioning from both Democrats and Republicans. It comes a day after President Trump called Iran's latest ceasefire proposal garbage. Iran is demanding reparations, sovereignty over the Strait of Hormuz and a full sanctions as conditions for any deal. As President Trump arrives in Beijing today, he's expected to discuss the Iran war with Chinese President Xi Jinping. The New York Times reports U.S. intelligence assessments contradict the Trump administration's public messaging about destroying Iran's military capabilities. Iran has reportedly regained access to 30 of its 33 Strait of Hormuz missile sites. Enough to threaten US warships and oil tankers. Iran also has access to about 90% of its underground missile storage and launch facilities. This comes amidst reports that the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia carried out covert retaliatory strikes against Iran back in March. Since the U S. Israeli war on Iran erupted, some Gulf countries have arrested dozens of Shiite Muslim citizens, calling them traitors loyal to Iran, which is majority Shiite. The Labor Department reports the US inflation rate rose to 3.8% in April, with energy costs comprising nearly half the increased prices. Real average hourly wages fell half a percentage point from March, meaning salaries failed to keep pace with the rising cost of living. Gasoline prices rose by 5.4% as Iran shut traffic through the Strait of Hormuz. In response to President Trump's bombing campaign On Tuesday, a reporter whether he'd make a deal with Iran to address the war's economic fallout. Mr. President, to what extent are Americans
- [04:50]
Astra Taylor
financial situation motivating you to make a deal?
- [04:54]
Donald Trump
Not even a little bit. The only thing that matters when I'm talking about Iran, they can't have a nuclear weapon. I don't think about American's financial situation. I don't think about anybody. I think about one. We cannot let Iran have a nuclear weapon.
- [05:10]
Amy Goodman
The Wall Street Journal says it's received subpoenas for the records of journalists who reported on the Trump administration's internal deliberations on Iran. The Journal reports the Justice Department investigation came after President Trump privately complained to acting Attorney General Todd Blanche about media leaks in the wake of the Iran war. Last month, Trump reportedly passed a stack of offending news articles to Blanche, quote, with a sticky note on it that said treason, unquote. Meanwhile, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said the Pentagon will review whether Arizona Democratic Senator Mark Kelly improperly disclosed classified information when he told CBS News the U.S. had rapidly depleted stockpiles of weapons, including long range missiles. Senator Kelly responded on social media, sharing a video of Hegseth admitting in a public hearing last week that it will take years to replenish U.S. weapons stockpiles to pre war levels. In Washington, D.C. peace activists disrupted the Politico defense summit on Tuesday confronting the Iranian opposition leader Reza Pahlavi, the son of Iran's last shah. Pahlavi was speaking in support of the U. S Israeli war on Iran at a panel hosted by Lockheed Martin when he was interrupted by Code Pink D organizer Olivia Denucci and other protesters.
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Tom Murillo
This is not about security. This is about death and destruction. They even said that the war in Iran is a golden opportunity. A golden opportunity to make a security I have a message for Lockheed Martin. How dare you use the massacre of my people as a golden opportunity. You have the flag of the people of Palestine and Iran and Lebanon on Iran Shame.
- [07:09]
Amy Goodman
Israeli drone strikes hit three cars on a major highway south of Beirut on Wednesday, killing at least eight people, including two children in the town of Jiya. The strikes came a day after 13 people were killed in southern Lebanon, including two paramedics. More than 2,800 people have been killed in Israeli attacks since March 2, with at least 380 killed since last month's ceasefire. Lebanon's health ministry says 108 emergency medical and health care workers have been killed in the war, with over 140 Israeli attacks recorded on ambulances and medical facilities. Lebanon and Israel are set to hold a new round of U S brokered negotiations in Washington Thursday. Hezbollah has said it opposes the talks. FBI Director Cash Patel was pressed by Senate Democrats at a hearing Tuesday over reports that his heavy alcohol use compromised his ability to do his job. Patel sued the Atlantic magazine for defamation, seeking $250 million after journalist Sarah Fitzpatrick reported he's alarmed colleagues with episodes of excessive drinking and unexplained absences. On Tuesday, Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen grilled Patel on the allegations. Patel exploded hurling insults and false claims at the senator before finally agreeing to take an alcohol screening test.
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Dr. Robert Steinbrook
And so there have been no occasions when your security detail had difficulty waking
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FBI Director Cash Patel
or locating you, is that right? Nope. It's a total farce. I don't even know where you get this stuff, but it doesn't make it credible because you say so.
- [09:03]
Dr. Robert Steinbrook
I'm not saying it, Director Patel.
- [09:05]
Amy Goodman
I It's been written and documented.
- [09:08]
FBI Director Cash Patel
You are literally saying it.
- [09:09]
Amy Goodman
No, I'm saying that these are reports,
- [09:11]
FBI Director Cash Patel
Director Patel, unlike unlike baseless reports, the only person that was slinging margaritas in El Salvador on the taxpayer dollar with a convicted gang banging rapist was you. You know the only person that ran up a director bar tab in Washington, D.C. was you.
- [09:27]
Amy Goodman
This room allegations drinking the US is reportedly in closely guarded talks with Denmark to open three new military bases in southern Greenland. A source speaking to the BBC says US Officials have floated designating the new bases as American sovereign territory. This comes after President Trump sparked a diplomatic crisis in January by threatening to seize Greenland by force, saying it could happen the easy way or the hard way. CNN's reporting the U.S. central Intelligence Agency has escalated its secret war on drug cartels with deadly operations inside Mexico spearheaded by the CIA's elite and secretive ground branch. Since President Trump retook the White House last year and designated several cartels as foreign terrorist organizations, CIA operatives in Mexico have reportedly participated directly and targeted assassinations on several mostly mid level cartel members. That includes a car bombing earlier this year on a busy highway outside Mexico City that killed alleged Sinaloa cartel member Francisco Beltran and his driver. CNN's disclosure of the CIA's Mexico operations comes after two CIA operatives and two Mexican law enforcement officers were killed in a car accident in the state of Chihuahua last month. The current U.S. ambassad to Mexico, Ronald Johnson's a former U.S. army Green Beret and veteran CIA officer Jennifer England, a 32 year old nurse's assistant and DACA recipient, has been held in ICE custody in Texas for nearly three months after she was stopped for driving with a suspended license. She was born in Mexico but was brought to the United States at the age of four. She leaves behind two daughters age 12 and 14. This comes as immigration lawsuits hit a record 9,911 in March alone, up 1,278% from five years ago, driven almost entirely by habeas corpus filings that have surged 85 times over the past year as immigration attorneys challenge ICE's mass detention and deportation campaign. Meanwhile, Florida's notorious alligator Alcatraz jail in the Everglades is set to close by June after DHS concluded the facility's $1 million per day price tag is too expensive. And Democrats on House Oversight Committee heard testimony Tuesday from survivors of the late convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. They held the field hearing in Palm Beach, Florida, near President Trump's Mar? A Lago residence and where Epstein once lived, framing it as a return to the, quote, scene of the crime. Lawmakers used the hearing to warn President Trump against pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell, the convicted longtime associate of Epstein who's serving a 20 year sentenced for helping him traffic and abuse girls. Trump's repeatedly declined to rule out a pardon for Maxwell. Meanwhile, some Epstein survivors said they'd been re traumatized after the Justice Department failed to redact their names from its incomplete release of the Epstein files. This is survivor Jennalisa Jones.
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Jennalisa Jones
When I was a teenager, I did not have the language to understand what was happening to me. I did not know who to tell. I did not know where to go. Many of us didn't. We were young and we were manipulated. We were left without the tools or the support we needed. That is something Congress can change.
- [13:10]
Amy Goodman
And those are some of the headlines. This is democracy now. Democracynow.org, the war and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. Following a growing pressure campaign from powerful Republicans, anti abortion groups and other allies of President Trump, Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Dr. Martin Makary resigned Tuesday. Served in the position since April of 2025. President Trump spoke to reporters at the White House ahead of his departure for China and said he preferred not to say if McCary had been fired or resigned.
- [13:49]
Donald Trump
Everybody wants that job. It's a very important job. Marty is a terrific guy, but he's going to go on and he's going to lead a good life. He was having some difficulty. You know, he's a great doctor and he was having some difficult.
- [14:06]
Amy Goodman
The Wall street journal reported Dr. Makary was pushed out in part because he tried to block FDA approval of fruit flavored vapes, angering President Trump, who saw approval as important to his Maga base. Dr. Makary also drew ire from anti abortion groups for not moving quickly enough to restrict access to the abortion drug drug Mefipristone. The agency was already in turmoil before Dr. Makary became commissioner. HHS Secretary Robert Kennedy Jr. Had already fired 3,500 workers from the FDA, roughly 20% of its workforce. FDA's Deputy Commissioner for food, Kyle Diamantis, will take on the role in an acting capacity as FDA Commissioner. Diamantes was previously an attorney in Miami who represented Abbott Laboratories, a manufacturer of baby formula. He's also a personal friend of Donald Trump Jr. He does not have a background in medicine. For more, we're joined by two guests. Dr. Robert Steinbrouck is Health Research Group director at Public Citizen, and Dr. Aaron Kesselheim is a professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Kesselheim, let's begin with you. I want you to respond to Makari leaving, but start off by talking about the significance of the Food and Drug Administration.
- [15:47]
Dr. Aaron Kesselheim
Well, first off, thanks for having me. I think the Food and Drug Administration is one of the most important public health agencies in the United States, if not the world. The oversight of the Food and Drug Administration extends to about a quarter of the economy, including prescription drugs, medical devices, a lot of food oversight. It has some things to say about cosmetics and nutritional supplements. There are some reports that on average, the average person touches about 12 to 15 FDA regulated products over the course of a day. So this, this agency is incredibly important in ensuring that the medicines that we take are tested and the food that we eat is inspected. And it is vital to the health of the country. And, you know, unfortunately, in the last 18 months, we have seen it increasingly engulfed by chaos and you know, undertaken a lot of questionable decisions under Dr. Macri's oversight.
- [16:58]
Amy Goodman
Dr. Steinbruck, if you can also talk about how much the FDA regulates, is in charge of food and drugs in this country and then your criticism of McCary, but then the criticism of the reasons he was pushed out.
- [17:23]
Dr. Robert Steinbrook
Glad to be with you. Agree with everything which was just said about the fda. It's vitally important and it's important for all of us in this country and others throughout the world who look to the FDA for leadership to have an effective, strong FDA which is grounded in science and which is grounded in Public Health. Dr. Makara was in a very difficult position and perhaps it was impossible. Though he didn't help his case at all. He was trying to be too many things to too many people. He was flip flopping. He had some good ideas, but before he was finished with one good idea, he would have another idea. Some of his initiatives, for example, cracking down on direct consumer advertising, misleading consumer advertising, that's a good idea. But on the other hand, being in a position to try to please everybodyantiabortion activists, drug companies, people who wanted more access to certain tobacco products or alternatives to tobacco in some ways, no win situation. And perhaps another person could have handled it better than he did. But the writing has been on the wall for some time. There was just pure chaos and not great leadership of these very important organization.
- [18:42]
Amy Goodman
So talk about the whole issue of the fruit flavored vaping, his concern about kids getting addicted and who was putting pressure on him to approve this.
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Dr. Robert Steinbrook
Well, the reporting has suggested that there was pressure from the White House and perhaps elsewhere within the Department of Health and Human Services for the approval of these vapes. And Dr. McCarry's stance seems to be well reasoned. Whether this was in fact the straw that broke the camel's back or not, it's hard to say because there were many other issues where he seemed to have been able to offend people on all sides of the political spectrum. On the one hand, wanted more evidence about vaccines and their safety and effectiveness. On the other hand, wanted to greenlight drugs with less evidence about their safety and effectiveness. He was just all over the place.
- [19:37]
Amy Goodman
And Dr. Kastelheim, the whole controversy created under the Trump administration over methapristone, the abortion pill, abortion medication is now the major way people are able to have abortions in this country. And abortions are up since Roe v. Wade was overturned. But talk about his position.
- [20:05]
Dr. Aaron Kesselheim
Well, I mean, I think that part of, I think that Part of The problem, as Dr. Steinberg pointed out, was this controversy about, about mifepristone, which is a drug that has been around for many decades and has been used very safely. There were some pre existing restrictions on it from the FDA that had been lifted in concordance with the evidence a few years ago. And the question was whether you know, what the circumstances were of those being, of those restrictions being lifted and whether or not they would be reimposed. And you know, I think this is another situation where Dr. Macri did not show a lot of firm leadership from his position in putting science first and making sure that the FDA operated clearly and made clear statements about the, you know, appropriate use and safety of that, of that drug where he could have. And you know, I think that that is one of the circumstances that led to this situation where because he did not lead by putting the science first and, and you know, by going through clear transparent channels about what was going to happen, it ended up that nobody was happy with what he did.
- [21:31]
Amy Goodman
So Dr. Steinbrook, you now havethe US now has no confirmed FDA commissioner, no confirmed CDC director, that's the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, no Senate approved Surgeon General. Can you talk about the significance of this and overall how you would characterize Robert Kennedy's tenure?
- [22:08]
Dr. Robert Steinbrook
Well, we shouldn't be in this situation 18 months into the or just about 18 months into the second Trump administration if we start with the CDC. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Has effectively been his own CDC director from the get go. There have been people back and forth and various acting directors, but he's basically been calling the shots as best we can see from the outside. And that's led to very bad public health consequences in terms of vaccines and recommendations for vaccines and the whole step and effectiveness of the agency. We've seen some of these issues come up with the recent cruise ship issue with hantavirus and the whole CDC office which was looking into cruise ships and safety and things of that sort, having been disbanded earlier to that for a
- [23:06]
Amy Goodman
minute I just would like to stop there since this is right now such an important story. What's happened with the cruise ship with hantavirus and the people who've been brought, brought to places like Nebraska who are in isolation, explain the role of the fda, hhs, you know, basically the Robert Kennedy's running of the health sector and the government.
- [23:37]
Dr. Robert Steinbrook
Well, without going into all the details of the hantavirus outback, it's an example of why we, we need a strong public health agency which collaborates internationally. The CDC would traditionally Working with the world health Organization to understand what was going on with the disease outbreak, even though this was not primarily a U. S based outbreak, to offer advice on control of the outbreak and to provide effective treatment for people needed treatment and the, the massive staff cuts, the loss of expertise, the lack of people in charge who are standing up for public health from Robert F. Kennedy Jr. On down, is apparent when things happen that we need to be prepared to respond. And that's why we need effective agencies which have science based leadership. That's really the issue here. It's the overall effect of organizations which were strong and robust. And when you pick them apart for particular theories and idiosyncrasies of the health and human services secretary, you destroy things which take years if not decades to rebuild.
- [24:51]
Amy Goodman
This is former now FDA commissioner Marty Makary during an interview on CNBC in February discussing efforts to change how most prescription drugs are available, making them over the counter for consumers.
- [25:10]
Dr. Marty Makary
In my opinion, everything should be over the counter. Not requiring a prescription unless it's unsafe, unless you need laboratory tests to monitor how it's being received by your body or if it could be used for some nefarious purpose or it's addictive. If it doesn't meet those criteria, why shouldn't a drug be over the counter? So we should be asking why not? Instead of, oh, you want to move over the counter, you got to go through our long, tedious process.
- [25:38]
Amy Goodman
So that's Dr. Marty Makary, the former FDA commissioner, Dr. Aaron Kesselheim, your response to what he's proposing?
- [25:49]
Dr. Aaron Kesselheim
Well, as with some of the stuff that he did as commissioner, there is a grain of truth, truth in what he said. There are certain drugs that we have decades of experience with, safe use of them and for which making them over the counter would help broaden their availability to patients and might help reduce their price and, you know, subject them to some competition that might help reduce their price. So there is a grain of truth to that. But I think that the way he says it is is very broadly stated in a way that doesn't appear to be, you know, designed to be, you know, put in sort of in the context of what the, of what the evidence is. Certainly if there is good evidence around drugs that they can be used safely with, with fair, with, with fair labeling that, that people can understand, it is reasonable to consider how those drugs should be made over the counter. And the FDA has a process for that. And maybe that process needs to be reviewed and examined to ensure that it's operating efficiently and maximally effectively. But I think to, you know, say in a public way that basically all drugs by default should be over the counter. Oh, by the way, except for all these exceptions is a challenging way to put it because you know, it does kind of give the impression that the role of the FDA is not a significant one in ensuring that these drugs are safely vetted and can be used appropriately. So I don't know, I think that in general this is a good example of him having a germ of a good idea that by the way, didn't go anywhere because he then moved on to some other, you know, crusade that he was talking about. But that was ultimately done in by his lack of attention to science based leadership and to the established legal and regulatory processes that the FDA has.
- [28:00]
Amy Goodman
So Dr. Robert Steinbrook, the acting FDA commissioner is now Kyle Diamantis, one of Donald Trump Jr. S President Trump's son's hunting buddies. Can you talk about the significance of a Florida attorney with no prior federal government experience now heading the fda? What is public citizen calling for?
- [28:31]
Dr. Robert Steinbrook
Well, it's a very unfortunate precedent. We have a science based agency with a non scientist in charge. We don't know how long he will be in charge. Answerable to Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Who as we've said before, we don't believe is qualified to be the HHS commissioner. Director should never have been confirmed. With all the whims of the White House and political pressure now it is possible that Kyle Diamantis will have less drama in terms of the day to day management of the agency and will allow some of the career scientists and non political appointees who are still left to do their jobs. But there are so many people out there, again who may or may not agree with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. On this and that who are far better qualified even to be in an acting position at the FDA and to give the American people a sense of confidence that the FDA is able to do its job.
- [29:31]
Amy Goodman
And I'll give you the last word, Dr. Kesselheim, around the issue of vaccines where they stand today.
- [29:42]
Dr. Aaron Kesselheim
Unfortunately, we're in a position where the, the head of our public health agencies are, are doing the best that they can to undermine the public confidence in the safety and effectiveness of vaccines. To undermine their the standard review of new vaccines to ensure that high quality, safe and effective vaccines are able to be available to patients. And this is a major public health crisis. The active undermining of vaccines, availability and use by patients is a major health crisis. Because you know, we know that vaccines work in the circumstances that they are recommended. And as we move away from that, we will just see increases in deadly infectious diseases that might have otherwise been in control. And that's a major public health tragedy that is unfolding and will take years to recover from. So, you know, I think that it is highly irresponsible what our current public health leaders are doing to try to undermine vaccines.
- [30:59]
Amy Goodman
Dr. Aaron Kesselheim, professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School, and Dr. Robert Steinbrouck, health Research Group director at Public Citizen, teaches medicine at Yale Medical School. Coming up, the fight against AI data centers isn't just about tech talk. It's about democracy. We'll speak with Esther Taylor.
- [31:40]
Tom Murillo
If you've been alive, better quit your eyes. If you've been a lion, you better quit your lion. If you've been a lion, you better quit your life. You're gonna reap just what you so so I'm on the mountain Reap them in the valley so I'm on the mountain Reap them in the valley so I'm on the mountain Reaping in the valley. You're gonna reap just what you so. If you've been achieving better so I'm
- [32:41]
Amy Goodman
on the mountains Performed by Nora Brown and Stephanie Coleman in our Democracy now studio. This is Democracy Now. Democracynow.org I'm Amy Goodman. Calls are growing across the United States for moratoriums on new AI data centers over their impact on energy costs, water and land use, the US Economy, greenhouse gas emissions, and democracy. In Maine, state lawmakers recently approved the first statewide moratorium, but the governor, Janet Mills, vetoed the legislation. A new Gallup poll released today shows 7 out of 10Americans oppose data centers being built near them. And the opposition spans the political spectrum. In Utah, residents are fighting plans to build what would be the largest data center in the world in Box Elder County. If built, the facility would generate and consume more energy than the entire state of Utah. The proposed complex would cover an area more than two and a half times the size of Manhattan. Estimates show the project could increase Utah's greenhouse gas emissions by 50%. On Capitol Hill, Vermont's independent Senator Bernie Sanders and Democratic Congressmember Alexandria Ocasio Cortez have introduced legislation to impose a temporary national moratorium on new artificial intelligence data center construction.
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Bernie Sanders
More than 100 local communities across 12 states have already enacted local moratoriums on data centers. And Congress itself has a moral obligation to stand with them and stop Big Tech from ruining their communities. Our legislation in the House and the Senate would hit the brakes on construction of new data centers. Until we address several of the key areas of harm AI poses.
- [34:36]
Amy Goodman
I'm shocked. We go now to North Carolina where we're joined by Astra Taylor, writer, organizer, co founder of the Debt Collective. She co wrote a new piece for the Guardian headlined the fight against AI data centers isn't just about tech, it's about democracy. Astra Taylor and Naomi Klein's forthcoming book out this September is titled End Times, Fascism and the Fight for the Living World. Astro, welcome back to democracy. Now, why don't you start off just by talking about what these AI data centers are. This largest one in Utah. I was just in Middleburg, Virginia last night. Every other person was raising this issue with me. Very critical issue in Virginia right now. Explain what they are.
- [35:26]
Astra Taylor
Thanks for having me. Yeah. Data centers are essentially the backbone of the AI revolution. Data centers aren't new. Every time you use the Internet, you're using data centers. So they've been around for a while, but they have been supercharged by the push towards artificial intelligence. Virginia is indeed the data center hub in this country, but they're spreading rapidly across the United States. Sam Altman, the head of OpenAI, has said that, you know, perhaps we'll have to cover the entire world in data centers. And it's about the drive for compute, for computing power. And they are often on an absolutely enormous scale. Like you described the data center being proposed in Utah, which would actually use twice as much energy as the entire state. There's one being proposed in Michigan that is going to be as big as 32 NFL football fields. And they use incredible amounts of energy, often gas, fossil fuel. They're being used as an excuse to put even old coal factories and coal production back online. There are many negative consequences for communities from emissions. Often they are powered by temporary gas turbines that are being used almost on a permanent basis. So there's air pollution, carcinogens, there's light and noise pollution. People are absolutely tormented by the sounds of these, these huge warehouses of whirring computers. There is water use issues depending on where it's located. And then there's just the question of what are people getting in return? Because these are massive, quote, unquote factories. But there are no jobs and a lot of harms for the people who live near them and larger harms for our society.
- [37:16]
Amy Goodman
Explain why it requires so much energy. What does it have to do with AI? Why do is artificial intelligence require this Astra?
- [37:27]
Astra Taylor
Just the nature of what they call compute. Right. The computers themselves require an incredible amount of energy to run and then to be cooled so they have to be kept in a stable temperature setting. So there's just energy to cool these machines because they produce an enormous amount of heat. And so that's another problem with them. And this is helping to blow through whatever now long gone climate commitments we had. But this drive to AI has been, when you look at Silicon Valley, they say the drive to AI is why we can no longer meet our climate commitments. All of these companies, Google Meta, presented themselves as climate champions and AI has caused them to throw those ideals out the window.
- [38:17]
Amy Goodman
One of the primary investors of the proposed megadata center in Utah is Kevin O', Leary, better known as Mr. Wonderful on the reality TV show Shark Tank. This is O' Leary defending the project and dismissing the protesters.
- [38:33]
Kevin O'Leary
Well, I'm actually the only developer of data centers on Earth that graduated from environmental studies, so I'm pretty aware of, of what these concerns are. They are around air, water use, heat, noise, pollution. So sustainability is at the heart of what we do in terms of all these proposals, not just Utah. We have 10,000 acres in Alberta, Canada with the same concerns. And so we search for the best technology. There's many air cooled turbines now, so you're blending in air cooled versus water. There's so many different ways to generate power. We can also put a percentage of the power generation through solar, wind and batteries because the battery technology is 10x more efficient than it was just five years ago. So that's very helpful because it makes the cost of energy lower. So if you're an environmentalist and you don't care about that stuff, of course you protest and that's what happens. I know, noted. What's happening in Utah right now is we think over 90% of the protesters are actually not people that live in Utah or Box Elder County. They're being bussed in.
- [39:45]
Amy Goodman
That's Kevin O', Leary, better known as Mr. Wonderful on the reality TV show Shark Tank. Your response, Esther Taylor?
- [39:54]
Astra Taylor
Well, he should be called Mr. Full of It. I mean his claims are absolutely absurd. You know, you could build data centers that were connected to sustainable renewable energy sources. That is not what these tech companies are doing because they are rushing to compete to be the company that controls this industry. So you know, take somebody like Elon Musk who has built three data centers, supercomputers around Memphis, Tennessee. You know, one of them, for example, the first one uses enough energy to power almost 300,000 homes. He's using these very high polluting gas turbines. Colossus 2 as the second supercomputer is called uses enough energy for 2 million homes. This is a guy who presented himself as a green champion for many years, but he has not built these computers, these supercomputers, these data centers in a way that reflects those values at all. And absolutely the point about this protest movement against data centers being not grassroots, being paid, is absolutely absurd. What's incredible about this movement is the, the grassroots nature of it and how it's bringing together people from across the political spectrum. It's bringing together folks who live in Memphis, Tennessee, rural farmers, just concerned citizens who are saying, what are we getting out of these? You know, there used to be a bargain when a factory came to town. You would get jobs even if maybe it emitted some pollution or had tax breaks. You know, these, these massive, you know, these massive warehouses maybe produce 30, 50, 100 jobs at best, often low wage jobs doing things like security or sanitation. And now there's even companies who are saying that they are going to actually provide security services with robot dogs, right? With robots. So it'll be robots guarding the computers. And so people are rightly saying, why should we support this? And that is what is causing this amazing movement to rise up and to block these developments across the country country.
- [41:58]
Amy Goodman
Astor University of Buffalo professor in environment and sustainability Holly Buck recently wrote an article in Jacobin headlined Democratic governance of AI as the Real Solution, in which she argues against the idea of a moratorium on data centers. She writes, moratorium on AI data centers is a terrible idea, one that poses serious equity concerns. A moratorium springs from the desire to stop the concentration of wealth, but ironically, it's likely to exacerbate it. Massive strategic blunder for the left. And we should think through the global justice implications and follow on effects. We should be wary of proposals that would send burdens elsewhere under neoliberal capitalism. Industries offshore environmental harms to places with weaker governance, cheaper labor costs and fewer environmental safeguards, unquote. Buck says AI should be regulated as a public utility. What's your response to her argument on a moratorium?
- [43:00]
Astra Taylor
Yeah, the Guardian piece I wrote with Saul Levin was a response to her criticism of this movement, which she said was a dead end, and her criticism of the idea of data center moratorium. First, I want to say that I like the idea of democratic governance of AI, but you need to have leverage to have any kind of democratic control. We think it's important to pause and just note how undemocratic the rollout of AI has been so far. Nobody has asked for this. You cited polling. This is incredibly unpopular technology. Even 80% of Republicans and independents of people who voted for Donald Trump say they want more regulations on AI, even if it slows things down. Last year there was a poll that said only 10% of people are excited about where this technology is going. And that's because the people who control it, who own it, have been very clear that they don't have democracy in mind. They define AGI, artificial general intelligence. This is OpenAI's definition as autonomous systems that can do, essentially do human work. And so this is a human job elimination machine, and maybe a human elimination machine in the sense that AI is also not just automating workplace labor, but also impersonating human beings and trying to be your best friend and your companion and sort of of take over human life. So this is not, and this, this again, is not something that people have wanted. You know, the Silicon Valley has, has gotten very aggressively behind Donald Trump, who has said, you know, he's going to block all attempts to regulate or control this technology. That we're in an accelerationist mindset. So you only can wield democratic power in opposition to that. If you are a bun, if you are, you know, an ordinary citizen who doesn't have a direct line to Donald Trump or millions of dol him off by engaging in protest, by engaging in disruptive action. And data centers provide local focal points, local choke points where people can come together and push back on the billionaire big tech agenda and say no. And it has absolutely changed the terrain. I think, of the political conversation that's critical. I think there are some people, a good faith critique as well. Is this the most tactical thing that people can do? And I would say it is tactical because, because it provides, again, people a place to meet locally and a way to make their discontent known. But I would, I think where I have another disagreement with Buck is, you know, I think there's a question about how much we want AI in our lives. Right. You know, I think part of her argument is that it's a bit Luddite to resist this technology. It's inevitable. It's the future. Everyone should have access to it in every facet of their existence. And I think that yet many people are more skeptical than that. We're saying, do we really want AI in our, in our schools, teaching our children? Do we really want AI talking to our children? And do we want AI to be our boss at work? You know, and there's. So there is a, there is a deeper debate there about where we want to allow this technology to be. And to me, that's Part of what it means to have democratic governance over AI is to say, no, we don't need this technology to take over every facet of our existence, from the industrial to the intimate.
- [46:30]
Amy Goodman
And finally, very briefly, can you explain the tech sector fighting back against the anti data center movement? You write, quote, about concerted PR efforts, flooding elections with dark money or even shadier tactics in this last minute.
- [46:51]
Astra Taylor
Yes, These know Bernie Sanders recently said that by his estimate, the AI sector has put $400 million into elections already in 2026. They are also trying to use other tactics, PR tactics, to smear protesters, for example. That idea that this is actually a paid movement is not a grassroots movement, is part of their campaign against the data center uprising. And, you know, it seems to not be working at this point because there is such grassroots momentum. People are coming together from all walks of life and realizing they have more in common around this issue. They might have voted for Donald Trump, they might have. They might be a Democrat, but they're saying, this is not the future that we want. We want a future where we can breathe the air, we can drink the water, where we have jobs, where our kids have jobs, where we have a livable future. Naomi Klein and I, in our forthcoming book, call this a new pro life movement. We don't want to be subjected to robot overlords. So there's going to be pushback, undoubtedly more pushback to come from the tech sector. And I hope that people who are sympathetic to the idea of regulating this technology can appreciate what a strategic movement this is. The data center fight is giving us leverage to create the conditions where hopefully the Democratic Party can come in and seize the moment and propose not just smart regulations, but things like a jobs guarantee, insisting that this technology is tied to green energy and the like. This is creating conditions for the changes that we need to push back on Silicon Valley and its authoritarian agenda.
- [48:24]
Amy Goodman
Astra Taylor, writer, organizer, co founder of the Debt Collective, will link to your new piece in the Guardian titled the fight against AI Data centers isn't just about tech, it's about democracy. Astra and Naomi Klein's forthcoming book out in September, is titled End Times, Fascism and the Fight for the Living World. Coming up, we go to Wisconsin to look at the case of Salah Sassoor, president of the Islamic Society of Milwaukee. He's been locked up in an ice jail since late March. We'll speak with his son. Stay with us. As I was walking that we put a of highway I saw above me, that in the skyway I saw below me A golden valley this land was made for you and me this land is your land this land is my land. From California to the New York island
- [49:36]
Dr. Robert Steinbrook
from
- [49:38]
Amy Goodman
Grammy Award winning musician Tom Murillo singing this Land Is yous land outside 26 Federal Plaza in New York City Tuesday, where he joined a coalition of groups protesting ICE abuses. This is Democracy Now. Democracynow.org, i'm Amy Goodman. We end today's show in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Look at the case of Saleh Sarsour, the president of the Islamic Society of Milwaukee. He's been locked up in an ICE jail in Indiana since late March. He is a Palestinian born 53 year old man who's lived in the United States since 1993. He became a lawful permanent resident nearly 30 years ago. The U.S. accuses him of failing to disclose a conviction by Israeli military authorities when he was a teenager in the occupied West Bank. Sarsour says he never understood the charges presented against him in Hebrew and that he was tortured in Israeli custody as a youth. Calls have been growing for weeks for Sarsour to be released. In April, the Milwaukee Common Council passed a resolution opposing his detention. More than 9,000 people have signed a petition calling for his release. The petition was organized by the group Bend the Ark Jewish Action. The group Jewish Voice for Peace has also advocated for Sarsour's release. This weekend I was in Milwaukee where I spoke to Jodi Milan, summit of Jewish Voice for Peace.
- [51:04]
Jodi Milan
His health is not good. We are very concerned. He's being held completely underground in a very, very cold detention center. He has diabetes. It's been a challenge to get his diabetes medication to him. We're not confirmed he's able to take it regularly. We're really concerned. He was unable to. He asked for Quran for his spiritual health and he was denied one. In fact, he was told that he should read the Bible. The food he's getting is also substandard. You know, we're extremely concerned that the time he's spending there is really compromising his health, although his mental spirit is very good.
- [51:40]
Amy Goodman
We're joined now by two guests, Salah Sarsour's son Karim and Munjat Ahmet, a member of Salah Sarsour's legal team. Karim, talk about your father, a very significant leader in Wisconsin, again, president of the Islamic Society of Milwaukee and what you're calling for. He's being held not in Wisconsin, but in hours away in Indiana.
- [52:06]
Karim Sarsour
Yes, yes. Thank you, Amy. Thank you for having me. Good morning. So my father, he is a father, a grandfather, a Businessman, a community pillar. He's been living here, like you said, for over 30 years. Legally, he's a community pillar giving back to his community since he came here. He was taken from Milwaukee on March 3rd by ICE agents, or we'd say kidnappers. And they took him and they took him to Chicago where they booked him and then they transferred him to Indiana's facility in Clay County. And the entire thing shook us as a family when they took him. Because a man who is elected for the second time as the president of the Islamic Society of Milwaukee, who has businesses living here legally, no criminal records, never recorded in the United States, was taken off the streets and put in a van and dragged across state lines without any cause or without any information other than you'll get a call later on. On that day, we actually called many local police departments to understand what was going on. Nobody had any clue. We thought something bad has happened to my dad. We tried. We were searching the entire city for him and we called our family friend, his attorney, to understand what was going on. Later on we understood that he was being dragged across state lines to go to a detention center all the way in Indiana.
- [53:38]
Amy Goodman
If you could tell us, Manjad Ahmed, what are the charges?
- [53:46]
Munjat Ahmet
Good morning again. Thanks for, for having myself and Karim with you. This is a very important case. There are many, you know, the so called charges or allegations are all pretextual. The truth of the matter is Salah is being held by ICE in an effort to weaponize immigration against people who are pro Palestinian, people who advocated against the genocide, and Gaza people who are outspoken on the issue of human rights for Palestinians, the ending of the occupation against the Palestinians. So whatever the government is saying, it's all just a pretext for silencing folks for their pro Palestinian advocacy. We saw the same thing with Mahmoud Khalil. We saw the same thing with Mohsen Mahdawi, with Lekat Khordia. We saw the same thing with Rizmanutlusturk. This is the modus operandi has been shown to us by the government that if you speak for Palestine and you are an advocate for Palestinian rights and you don't fall in line, they're going to use immigration and weaponize that against you. Solace, who has been a lawful permanent resident of the United States for 33 years, has been a pillar of our community, not only in Milwaukee, but nationally. I mean, he has reaches more nationally than most people I think know. And so we know that the only reason that is sitting in jail right now is to stop him from his constitutionally protected rights of free speech. And this is an attack on our constitution. And we should all be worried, as Americans, we should all be very worried that our constitution is being gutted by this administration, at least when it relates to pro Palestinians, Palestinian speech. And so Salah's case, in my opinion, is going to be a litmus test. Will this country stand up for their constitutional rights, or are we going to allow the Trump administration to gut those rights and to strip people from their free speech?
- [55:48]
Amy Goodman
Karim, his ninth grandchild, your dad's ninth grandchild was born while he was in jail and his 10th grandchild is about to be born.
- [56:00]
Karim Sarsour
Yes. Yes. So my dad's actually, he was planning on visiting my sister in Tennessee. He usually visits her every time she has a kit for support, and she usually has very hard labor. So he was actually planning to leave that week or the week after to go there and be of support, and he was not able to obviously see for being taken away. And his 10th grandchild is going to be coming in five months. He has, I mean, nine grandchildren. Six or seven of them talk about him every single day. They miss him so much. He was a big part of their lives. He was if you see his pictures online and on social media, you see how they're smiling, playing together. He was the teddy bear of a grandfather that brings so much happiness and joy. He would break thei mean, he'd break our word as a grandfather and do whatever he wants with the kids and play with them and give them candy or take them out and get them toys.
- [57:03]
Amy Goodman
He's head of the largest mosque inis it not only Milwaukee, but Wisconsin.
- [57:10]
Karim Sarsour
Yes, Wisconsin. So he was elected for his second term as the president of the Islamic side of Milwaukee that has a big community center, a big school. He was building with an amazing team. They were building a great future for the next generations to come. As the community is growing more and
- [57:29]
Amy Goodman
more, I want to end with Salah Sarsour. In his own words, a part of a letter he sent from his ICE jail cell in Indiana, he wrote, I'm not here for a crime or for anything wrong I committed. I'm here because I believe, like all of you, in building a strong community to secure the best environment for our children so they can learn how to be strong, just citizens. I'm here because I chose to stand with justice and with those who deserve our support and to defend them, whether in our community or all over the world. I'm here because I stood with all of you in the streets saying no to the oppression, no to the genocide against Gaza and Palestine, no to war, no to the killing of children, no weaponizing immigration for anyone. And no to humiliating and discriminating against against people. The words of Salah sassor. We have 10 seconds. Moonjid, you're his lawyer. Is he, is there any word that he's going to be released soon?
- [58:24]
Munjat Ahmet
We filed a request in the Southern District of Indiana with the federal court there requesting a bond that is currently pending. Our hope is that the judge will see what is actually happening here as an affront to the Constitution institution and
- [58:38]
Amy Goodman
we'll actually release Munjer Ahmed, a member of Salah Sarsour's legal team and Saleh Sarsour's son, Karim. Sarsour, thank you so much for being with us. That does it for our show. I'll be at the IFC center tonight in New York City for the screening of Steal a Story, please, then to Atlanta on Friday, Houston and Austin over the weekend. Go to democracynow.org.