Democracy Now! 2026-06-02 Tuesday

Summary

Democracy Now! — June 2, 2026: Detailed Episode Summary

Episode Overview

In this vital episode, Amy Goodman and Juan González provide in-depth coverage and analysis of escalating Middle East conflicts—particularly Israel’s ongoing bombing campaign in Lebanon amid alleged ceasefire efforts—and the United States' controversial military actions in the Caribbean and Eastern Pacific. The conversation is joined by reporters, human rights advocates, and author Stephen Thrasher, examining both immediate crises and systemic structures of power and oppression, from international war crimes to domestic policing and the cooptation of marginalized identities in upholding the status quo.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Lebanon-Israel Conflict and Ceasefire Breakdown

• Main Developments:
  • Ongoing Israeli airstrikes in Lebanon despite President Trump’s claims of an agreed ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah.
  • Iranian suspension of talks with the U.S. in protest of Israeli actions, emphasizing the ceasefire is “unequivocally” inclusive of Lebanon.
  • Over 3,400 reported Lebanese deaths since March 2; mounting international outcry and diplomatic activity.
  • President Trump’s heated call with Israeli PM Netanyahu: “You’re effing crazy. You’d be in prison if it weren’t for me. I’m saving your ass. Everybody hates you now. Everybody hates Israel because of this.” (03:35)
• Key Quotes:
  • “Israel's presence north of the Blue Line is a clear violation of Lebanon's sovereignty…” – UN Assistant Secretary General Martha Povey (03:52)
  • “This is a feeling that can't be described...we have been living through wars until now.” – Displaced Lebanese resident (18:12)
• Timestamps:
  • [00:17–06:31]: Headlines & background: Israeli attacks, political fallout in the U.S.
  • [16:28–36:20]: In-depth interview with Karim Shahayeb (Associated Press, Beirut)

Interview Highlights: Karim Shahayeb on Lebanon’s Ordeal

• Ceasefire Reality: “What happened yesterday was, was in no means a ceasefire... it was a containment effort to stop what could have taken Lebanon back to the peak of the war...” (19:57)
• Role of Diplomacy: Lebanon’s Speaker of Parliament and Ambassador to the U.S. played crucial roles in indirect U.S.-Hezbollah communication.
• Iran’s Interest: “Hezbollah is Iran's closest ally in the region...an opportunity for Iran to maintain its leverage in Lebanon...” (22:39)
• Civil Society Impact: “Morale is low despite yesterday’s breakthrough...people understand this is not the end of the war.” (29:11)
• Significant Locations: E.g. “Capturing the Beaufort Castle...doesn't mean that Israel is going to roll into Beirut tomorrow, but it represents something greater...” (29:11)
• Hezbollah-Lebanese Government Relations: “The government has received support for saying they want to disarm all non-state actors, but criticized for not taking a more aggressive approach...” (25:57)
• US-Israel Tensions: “There has been a divergence in Israeli U.S. policy...the U.S. has not been keen on letting Israel bomb the southern suburbs of Beirut.” (33:30)

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2. U.S. Drone Strikes in the Caribbean and Eastern Pacific

• Operation Southern Spear:
  • Over 200 killed in strikes on boats alleged to be involved in drug trafficking.
  • Lack of transparency, legal justification, and due process; criticized as extrajudicial killings.
• Key Quotes:
  • “Operation Southern Spear came without any plausible legal justification. The world has failed to challenge these assassinations in any meaningful way.” – Angelo Guisado, CCR (01:20, 38:11)
  • “We have a state...intentionally killing people outside of any lawful circumstance. That is an extrajudicial killing, which...is a form of murder.” – Amanda Klassing, Amnesty International (41:17)
• Timestamps:
  • [38:11–48:36]: Legal and human rights analysis with Amanda Klassing (Amnesty International USA)
• Issues Raised:
  • Lack of identification of victims.
  • Expansion of “war on terror” logic to non-war contexts.
  • Congressional scrutiny; calls to defund extrajudicial programs.
• Notable Moment:
  • “I've seen the legal opinion, but I can't talk about it because it’s classified...I think there’s a profound mismatch between what is occurring and the underlying assumptions in the legal opinion.” – Senator Tim Kaine (39:20)

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3. Other Global and Domestic Headlines

• Gaza & Palestine: Ongoing Israeli strikes, parade protests, U.S. political involvement.
• Ukraine: Russian missile/drone attacks, President Zelenskyy's plea for more Patriot interceptors denied by Trump.
• AI & Tech: Anthropic IPO; SpaceX’s potential index inclusion; Bernie Sanders proposes windfall tax for public benefit from AI companies.
• LGBTQ Rights in Africa: Ghana passes anti-LGBTQ law; advocates highlight growing repression across the continent.
  • “[Ghana is] jumping onto this same running truck and all African leaders are quiet.” – Ugandan LGBTQ activist Hansen Fum (12:20)
• Press Freedom & Pentagon Policy: Defense Sec. Pete Hegseth designates Pentagon press office as classified, barring journalists’ access.
  • “No matter how petulant Pete gets, journalists will continue their tenacious reporting...” – Reporters Without Borders
• 60 Minutes Turmoil: Correspondent Scott Pelley criticizes new leadership and direction (13:00–14:00)
• U.S. Primaries: Multiple states hold major primary elections; tight races highlighted in California and Los Angeles.

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4. Feature Interview: Stephen Thrasher on ‘The Overseer: A Manifesto’

• Book's Central Thesis: Examines how marginalized people, particularly Black Americans, can be co-opted into enforcing oppression within their own communities—e.g., "diversifying the disciplinarian apparatus" without changing underlying power structures.
• Film Series: Upcoming BAM (Brooklyn Academy of Music) series: “Black Spies and Overseers.”
• Key Quotes:
  • “I started thinking about how black cops are kind of rehabilitating police departments...those are the people who I call overseers, the ones who rule between the ruling class and the working class.” (51:27)
  • “We diversified the disciplinarian apparatus and nothing else.” (54:59)
  • “...it's Gay Pride Month. I could have an affinity with someone like Karine Jean-Pierre...but she's also the face of the genocide of Gaza.” (54:59)
  • “We need to give people options for things they can do for a living and not just rely on individual moral decisions for how to deal with these systemic problems.” (57:10)
• Timestamps:
  • [49:07–58:01]: In-depth interview with Stephen Thrasher
• Historical Context: Comparisons with South Africa under apartheid and Nazi-occupied Europe; explores global and historical nature of “overseer” roles.
• Personal Reflection: Thrasher admits he once applied to be a police officer out of necessity, using his experience to critique systemic issues (“I'm prepared to get canceled for that, but I also want to show people that you can change over time.”).

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps and Attribution)

• Amy Goodman (03:35):

  "[Trump to Netanyahu] ‘You’re effing crazy. You’d be in prison if it weren’t for me. I’m saving your ass. Everybody hates you now. Everybody hates Israel because of this.’"

• Karim Shahayeb (19:57):

  “What happened yesterday was, was in no means a ceasefire or a step towards a complete ceasefire. However, it was a containment effort to stop what could have...taken Lebanon back to where it was in the peak of the war...”

• Amanda Klassing (41:17):

  “We have a state, a government, intentionally killing people outside of any lawful circumstance. And that is an extrajudicial killing, which...is a form of murder.”

• Stephen Thrasher (51:27):

  “...those are the people who I call overseers, the ones who rule between the ruling class and the working class.”

• Scott Pelley (paraphrased, 14:00):

  “She’s murdering 60 Minutes. She does not love this place. She was brought in to kill it and she’s been doing exactly that.”

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Memorable Moments

• President Trump’s reported expletive-laden call with Netanyahu.
• Rising global scrutiny and legislative movement on U.S. “boat strikes.”
• Amanda Klassing denouncing video-game-ification of drone warfare: “It really takes away the humanity of the people being targeted and killed.” (46:41)
• Stephen Thrasher on identity politics and policing: data showing black police chiefs at elite universities far outnumber black faculty and students.

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:17 – 06:31: News headlines (Middle East, Ukraine, AI, U.S. politics)
• 16:28 – 36:20: Lebanon crisis deep dive—Amy Goodman & Juan González interview with Karim Shahayeb
• 38:11 – 48:36: U.S. boat strikes—Juan González & Amy Goodman with Amanda Klassing
• 49:07 – 58:01: Stephen Thrasher interview on ‘The Overseer: A Manifesto’
• Select Quotes and Analysis Interspersed throughout

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Summary & Tone

This episode of Democracy Now! maintains its signature rigorous, unvarnished analysis of major world events, blending field reporting, expert interviews, and a critical lens on power. The tone is urgent, unsparing, and committed to lifting suppressed voices—consistently highlighting the victims of war, state violence, and systemic discrimination while giving space to those challenging injustice.

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For further content, transcripts, and video: democracynow.org

Transcript

[Amy Goodman]

From New York. This is Democracy Now. The Lebanese stood by the Iranians in Iran's darkest moments and supported us. You could say they brought themselves into this war and they should be supported in my view. View Every one of us has a responsibility toward them. Iran suspends talks with the United States to protest Israel's invasion and continued bombing of Lebanon. Iran's foreign minister said the attacks violate the ceasefire agreement, which he said unequivocally includes Lebanon. President Trump's claiming talks have resumed after phone calls with Prime Minister Netanyahu and Hezbollah writing on social media, quote, there will be no troops going to. For more on all the latest developments, we'll go to Beirut then. The death toll from US Drone strikes on boats in the Caribbean and eastern Pacific has surpassed 200.

[Juan Gonzalez]

Unprecedented military campaign.

[Karim Shahayeb]

Operation Southern Spear came without any plausible legal justifications.

[Juan Gonzalez]

The world has failed to challenge these assassinations in any meaningful way.

[Amy Goodman]

Then the Overseer Class A manifesto. We'll speak to author Stephen Thrasher about his new book and his upcoming film series in Brooklyn at BAM called Black Cops, Spies and Overseers. All that and more coming up. Welcome to democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. Israel's military continued its attacks on Lebanon overnight, killing at least eight people even after President Trump said both sides had, quote, agreed that all shooting will stop, unquote. Among the dead is James Karam, a dentist who was killed along with his daughter and son when an Israeli drone bombed their car in southern Lebanon. Another Israeli attack killed two people and damaged the Jabal Emel University Hospital and Tyre. Lebanon's Health Ministry reports Israeli strikes have killed more than 3,400 people since March 2. Over 10,000 have been wounded. Axios is reporting. During an expletive Laden call, Trump told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, quote, you're effing crazy. You'd be in prison if it weren't for me. I'm saving your ass. Everybody hates you now. Everybody hates Israel because of this, unquote. The president reportedly said after the call. Trump said in a social media media post said he'd had a productive phone call with Netanyahu and that, quote, there will be no troops going to Beirut, unquote. Trump's comment came after Netanyahu and Israeli Defense Minister Israel Katz said they had ordered massive airstrikes on Beirut's southern suburbs. On Capitol Hill, Michigan Democratic Congressmember Rashida Tlaib is calling on Congress to pass a Lebanon war powers resolution. This week. She wrote, quote, our country should not be assisting or supporting indiscriminate bombings and forced displacement anywhere in including Lebanon, unquote. Meanwhile, the United Nations Security Council held an emergency meeting Monday to discuss Lebanon. UN Assistant Secretary General Martha Povey said Israel is violating a UN Security Council resolution that was aimed at stopping Israel's invasion of Lebanon two decades ago.

[Karim Shahayeb]

Israel's presence north of the Blue Line is a clear violation of Lebanon's sovereignty and territorial integrity as well as of Security Council Resolution Resolution 1701.

[Juan Gonzalez]

Israeli forces must withdraw to south of the Blue Line.

[Amy Goodman]

Iranian diplomats have suspended talks with the United States after warning Israel's attacks on Lebanon and the Gaza Strip could doom ongoing cease fire negotiations with the Trump administration. Iranian Foreign Minister Abbas Aragchi said Monday the US has already violated its ceasefire with Iran when it imposed a naval siege on Iranian ports. He also said Israel's attacks attacks on Lebanon constitute a ceasefire violation on a separate front. After headlines, we'll go to Beirut to speak with the Associated Press. Karim Shahaib's latest piece is headlined Trump says Israel and Hezbollah have Agreed to dial back fighting in Gaza. At least three Palestinians died in separate Israeli attacks earlier today as Palestinian monitoring groups documented 11 new ceasefire violations over the past 24 hours. Among the attacks was an Israeli drone strike on a civilian vehicle EAS east of Derabullah that injured displaced families living nearby in makeshift shelters. Israel has carried out strikes on most of the 237 days since it agreed to a U S brokered Gaza ceasefire last October. Here in New York, the far right Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrek marched in the annual Israel Day parade Sunday alongside other Israeli far right ministers and cabinet officials. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, Governor Kathy Hochul and New York State Attorney General Letitia James were among several prominent Democrats who marched in the same parade as Smotrick, who has been sanctioned by multiple countries for inciting settler violence against Palestinians. The lead organizer of the parade told the New York Times he did not know that Smotrik and other Israeli far right officials were planning to march. New York City Mayor Zoran Mamdani, who boycotted the event, said he was offended by the presence of Israeli officials at the parade.

[Karim Shahayeb]

You can see in the participation of the far right Israeli Minister Smotrich, as well as a number of other ministers,

[Juan Gonzalez]

a vision of annihilation, a complicity in

[Karim Shahayeb]

genocide, and frankly a belief that does not have much value for even the sanctity of children in Gaza.

[Juan Gonzalez]

And I am offended, as I know many New Yorkers are, by their participation

[Amy Goodman]

in Ukraine. A wave of Russian strikes has killed at least 18 people and injured dozens in Kyiv, Dnipro, Zaporizhzha, Poltava and Kharkiv. Overnight, Russia launched 73 missiles and 656 drones at Ukraine. This is Alina. Her building was damaged by a Russian strike. I woke up from my bed and decided to move to the corridor. I heard explosions coming closer and closer. I turned my back to the window to go to the apartment door. At that moment there was an explosion which threw me against the door. But I'm fine now. Russia's latest assault once again prompted Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky to ask President Trump to send Patriot interceptors, which are capable of blocking ballistic missiles. Trump has so far ignored Zelenskyy's pleas. Despite the fact that Ukraine is running out of interceptors. President Trump is reportedly reconsidering his $1.8 billion slush fund to compensate his who took part in the January 6th insurrection. This comes as the Justice Department also said it would temporarily pause the program to comply with a court order. The fund was set up as a settlement following Trump's $10 billion lawsuit against his own IRS over the leak of his tax returns. Federal Judge Kathleen Williams reopened the case last week after a bipartisan group of 35 former federal judges urged her to look more closely at the settlement. Anthropic, the AI company behind Claude, filed confidentially for an initial public offering Monday, less than a week after raising $65 billion in funding that pushed its valuation to $965 billion. Anthropic's IPO plans come as several major stock market index providers have recently changed rules excluding unprofitable companies. The changes could allow Elon Musk's private AI and rocket company SpaceX, which to go public, to be added to the indexes much sooner than they typically would, which means millions of Americans invested in retirement funds could end up owning a piece of SpaceX whether they choose to or not. This comes as Vermont's independent senator Bernie Sanders announced a new bill that would create a sovereign wealth fund by imposing a one time 50% tax on the stock of OpenAI, Anthropic and other AI companies and an op ed for the New York Times. Senator Sanders writes, the fund would, quote, give the public a direct role in determining the future of this technology and guarantee that the trillions of dollars potentially generated by AI are used to improve the lives of us all, not simply to make the richest people in the world even richer. Unquote. Meanwhile, Florida became the first state to sue OpenAI and its CEO Sam Altman, alleging they know ChatGPT not safe, especially for children. This is Florida's Attorney General.

[Karim Shahayeb]

We're here to announce that we recently filed a monumental civil lawsuit against Sam

[Juan Gonzalez]

Altman and ChatGPT for endangering our kids

[Karim Shahayeb]

and deceiving parents into believing that this

[Juan Gonzalez]

application is safe for use.

[Karim Shahayeb]

It's clearly not. People are getting hurt, parents are getting deceived, and they need to pay for it.

[Amy Goodman]

The mayor of Newark, New Jersey is announcing his city's legal strategy aimed at shutting down the Delaney Hall ICE jail. The for profit immigration detention center has been the focus of massive protests demanding justice for immigrants who've launched a hunger strike to protest inhumane conditions, medical neglect inside the jail and demanding their freedom. On Monday, Newark Mayor Ross Baraka said his city's police department will exercise a greater span of control over the perimeter of Delaney hall after federal agents and New Jersey State Police repeatedly attack demonstrators outside with horses, clubs, pepper spray and other so called less lethal weapons. In a statement, Mayor Baraka said, quote, police tactics over this last weekend were overly aggressive, unnecessary, and in some instances unconstitutional, he said. But the mayor said a 9pm to 6am curfew would remain in effect until further notice. In Ghana, human rights groups warn a new law criminalizing LGBTQ activity could devastate queer communities. The sweeping legislation approved Friday makes it a crime to identify as non binary, lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer, trans or intersex. It also imposes prison terms of up to 10 years on anyone who, quote, promotes unquote LGBTQ activities. It's expected to be signed into law by Ghana's President John Mahama. This follows similar legislation recently passed in other African nations, including Senegal and Burkina Faso. In 2023, Uganda passed a law making it a crime to identify as queer, declaring all same sex conduct to be non consensual, and even allowing for the death penalty in certain cases. Critics have called it a kill the gays bill. This is Ugandan LGBTQ activist Hansen Fum.

[Stephen Thrasher]

At first, it was Uganda with the harshest kill gay bill in the whole world that contains a death penalty and a life imprisonment.

[Karim Shahayeb]

Apparently we are seeing Ghana jumping onto

[Stephen Thrasher]

this same running truck and all African leaders are quiet in whatever is happening.

[Amy Goodman]

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has designated the Pentagon press office a classified space, physically barring journalists from an area that's been freely accessible to reporters across multiple administrations. In a statement, Reporters Without Borders said, quote, no matter how petulant Pete gets, journalists will continue their tenacious reporting and hold the Pentagon accountable for the money, operations and lives they impact every day. Unquote. Separately, a federal court temporarily blocked the Pentagon from discharging transgender service members while still allowing the administration to continue banning transgender people from entering the military. It's come as Hegseth also struck several female and black Navy offers from a promotions list. Rhode Island Senator Jack Reed said in a recent Testimony, quote, nearly 60% of the senior officers Seth has fired are female or Black. Unquote. Veteran 60 Minutes correspondent Scott Pelley openly revolted against CBS News leadership Monday at a staff meeting meant to introduce the show's newly appointed executive producer, Nick Bilton. Bilton is a tech journalist installed by CBS's editor in chief, Bari Weiss, after she fired the show's two top correspondents, Sharon Alfonsi and Cecilia Vega, alongside executive producer Tanya Assignment. When Bilton reportedly told the staff Weiss loves CBS News, in 60 Minutes, Peli shot back, quote, she's murdering 60 Minutes. She does not love this place. She was brought in to kill it and she's been doing exactly that. Unquote. Pelly also declared that Bilton would never be welcome here. Unquote. The winners of the 2026 news and documentary Emmy Awards have been announced. This year's Outstanding Investigative Documentary prize goes to Critical Incident A Death at the bor. Produced by HBO Documentary Films, the film examines the alleged cover up of the murder of Anastasio Hernandez Rojas, an undocumented Mexican immigrant who died while in US custody at the border. His 2010 death occurred under the watch of Rodney Scott, the man who now heads Customs and Border Protection under President Trump. The film's director, Rick Rowley, accepted the award.

[Karim Shahayeb]

Cruelty and violence have festered at the heart of US Immigration enforcement for so

[Amy Goodman]

long, and part of it is because

[Karim Shahayeb]

of the impunity and the secrecy that have surrounded these organizations. And so I need to thank this incredible team for pulling back the veil and exposing that organization.

[Amy Goodman]

To see our interview with Rick Rowley, director of Critical Incident and Death at the border, go to democracynow.org and voters head to the polls in several states today for primary elections. California faces a crowded field in the race to replace outgoing governor Gavin Newsom. Under the state's job jungle primary system, the two candidates who received the most votes today will advance to the general election regardless of party. In Los Angeles, 13 candidates are looking to unseat incumbent Mayor Karen Bass. Polls show Bass is in a close race with City Council member Nithya Raman and reality TV personality Spencer Pratt. In Iowa, Republicans and Democrats are selecting candidates to replace Republican Senator Joni Ernst, who's retiring. There are also primary elections in Montana, New Jersey, New Mexico, and and those are some of the headlines. This is democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman in New York, joined by Democracy Now's Juan Gonzalez in Chicago. Hi, Juan.

[Juan Gonzalez]

Hi, Amy. And welcome to all of our listeners and viewers across the country and around the world.

[Amy Goodman]

We begin today's show in Lebanon, where Israeli drones have killed at least eight people despite President Trump's claim that Israel and Hezbollah have agreed that, quote, all shooting will. Trump made the claim, as Iran said it's suspending indirect negotiations with the US to protest Israel's expanding military offensive in Lebanon. Iran's foreign Minister, Abbas Aragchi wrote online, the ceasefire between Iran and the US Is unequivocally a ceasefire on all fronts, including in Lebanon. Its violation on one front is a violation of the ceasefire on all fronts. The US And Israel are responsible for the consequences of any violation, he said. Since March 2, Israel has killed more than 3,400 people in Lebanon while seizing large swaths of southern Lebanon, including the medieval Beaufort Castle. On Monday, President Trump spoke with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu by phone after Israel threatened new attacks on Beirut. Axios is reporting. During the expletive Laden call, Trump told Netanyahu, quote, you're effing crazy. You'd be in prison if it weren't for me. I'm saving your ass. Everybody hates you now. Everybody hates Israel because of this. Axios reported Trump saying to Netanyahu after the call, Trump wrote online, quote, I had a very productive call with Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu of Israel and there will be no troops going to Beirut and any troops that are on their way have already been turned back, he said. In Beirut, displaced Lebanese residents decried Israel's ongoing attacks.

[Juan Gonzalez]

We this is a feeling that can't be described. We have experienced this before and we rebuilt our land and God willing, we will rebuild it even better. We have lived through something like this before. I was born in 1975, from the first day I was born, we have been living through wars until now about staying in the south of Lebanon as long as there is a strip, an occupied strip, an occupied land, and it

[Stephen Thrasher]

means Israel is harming us.

[Amy Goodman]

At the United nations, the Security Council held an emergency meeting to discuss Lebanon. This is Russia's U Ambassador Vasilyn Abensia.

[Stephen Thrasher]

This ceasefire reached on April 17th between

[Juan Gonzalez]

West Jerusalem and Beirut, brokered by Washington,

[Stephen Thrasher]

has unfortunately turned out to be a smokescreen for a creeping aggression against Lebanon.

[Juan Gonzalez]

While the entire world was waiting for

[Stephen Thrasher]

the next round of negotiations planned for

[Juan Gonzalez]

June 2 in the United States capital, Israel continued to methodically expand its zone

[Karim Shahayeb]

of occupation, razing entire settlements to the ground as part of its scorched earth tactics.

[Juan Gonzalez]

It has become evident that Lebanon is seeing an almost identical replay of the scenario of clearing the Gaza Strip with the establishment of large scale occupation control

[Stephen Thrasher]

and the forced displacement of the local population.

[Amy Goodman]

We go now to Beirut, where we're joined by Karim Shahayeb, Associated Press reporter based in Beirut. His most recent co authored piece is headlined For Trump says Israel and Hezbollah have Agreed to dial back fighting. Welcome back to Democracy Now. Karim, can you explain what you understand President Trump is saying, who he's spoken to and what in fact is happening on the ground?

[Karim Shahayeb]

Absolutely. What happened yesterday was, was in no means a ceasefire or a step towards a complete ceasefire. However, it was a containment effort to stop what could have in fact taken Lebanon back to where it was in the peak of the war, where Israel would be bombing the southern suburbs of Beirut, where there would be mass displacement from these sprawling urban neighborhoods, and it would. And Hezbollah would continue launching rockets and missiles into northern Israel. They weren't doing much of that in this period and most of their attacks were targeting Israeli troops in Lebanon. But we did witness an escalation of that. Now, what happened was, is that obviously Hezbollah and the United States do not communicate with each other. The Lebanese speaker of Parliament, Nabih Berre, who was a key Hezbollah ally and communicates with the United States and has done so with mediators in the past, such as Amos Hawk seen and so on. It appears he played a very crucial role in the communication on the line, as well as the Lebanese ambassador to Washington, who of course is taking part in the negotiations, including tonight, the ones taking place today and tomorrow. And so there has been a series of calls in the meantime. The, the president of Lebanon has repeatedly been on the line with, with, with the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio and the State Department, as officials have told us. And there's been a flurry of, you know, diplomatic calls. And this is why we saw a lot of statements from France, from German Saudi Arabia and other countries basically trying to halt what looked like an imminent escalation that would have basically taken Lebanon back to where it was before this nominal cease fire went to effect on April 17th. This obviously is something that Beirut wants to use its momentum in order to get something out of these talks. Beirut has, you know, basically you can see from the statements coming out of the President, the Prime Minister's office at Lebanon wants to stick to these talks, but they're trying to get something out of it. Israel's military escalation last week has really frustrated the authorities. They're very concerned that they're losing support over these talks. And they're trying to show that indeed they have leverage to get something out of this. And they are sticking to wanting a complete ceasefire. So yet there was. They're trying to take advantage of yesterday's momentum. But of course, this is in no means a full ceasefire. The strikes in Lebanon continued this morning across southern Lebanon. And Hezbollah has also claimed some attacks on Israeli troops, troops in southern Lebanon.

[Juan Gonzalez]

And Karim, why do you think Iran is insisting so strongly on the inclusion of Lebanon in an overall negotiated settlement with the United States?

[Karim Shahayeb]

Hezbollah is Iran's closest ally in the region. Hezbollah relies heavily on Iran and has done so over the years since its inception in the early 80s. And Iran played a huge role in building up Hezbollah. And Hezbollah began as an insurgency group when Israel had invaded Lebanon and occupied southern Lebanon in 2000, and now is a full fledged political party with strong institutions. And so Hezbollah in the last war, which ended in late 2024, you know, was severely battered in Israeli strikes. A large chunk of its senior leadership, both political and military, were killed in Israeli airstrikes or drone strikes. And, you know, it wasn disarm militarily, obviously, but it did lose a large amount of its, a large sum of its military caliber. And, you know, even Hezbollah leadership today sees them as kind of adjusting to these new realities. And so there's momentum in Lebanon since the end of that war that, you know, maybe now is the time to disarm Hezbollah and for the Lebbe's military to deploy in southern Lebanon. And obviously this put Hezbollah in a bit of a difficult political situation. Now, obviously things have changed with this round of war and so on. But Hezbollah is very, very important to Iran in the region, especially at a period of time, for example, where in Iraq a lot of Iran backed militias, you know, the Iraqi government, for example, wants to weaken Iran's influence there. And there has been sort of a divergence of the different armed, you know, groups in Iraq that sort of banded together and most of them were sort of pro Iran. So Lebanon is very, very important for Iran in that way. And also this is an opportunity for Iran to maintain its leverage in Lebanon. Right. If the war between Lebanon and Israel ends because of the leverage Iran had in its talks with the US and Pakistan and Islamabad, then this shows that Iran can sort of be the savior. And this is why Hezbollah opposes direct talks, because they're saying the Lebanese government has no leverage. Let's use Iran's. Because when Iran started to strike back in the Gulf countries and so on, they put the globe on notice, they put the global economy on notice. And I think that's kind of the game where Iran's trying to make sure that its leverage remains in Lebanon and that the Lebanese authorities that have come to power in early 2025 cannot break away from Iran as they've been slowly trying to do so, and rekindle their ties with the United States and the Gulf countries as well. So there's a geopolitical angle as well where Iran is trying to maintain its position here. That's how things appear at the moment. And obviously it's a very complicated situation. Lebanon has always been stuck between the geopolitical battles and we can specul for a long time, but Hezbollah, Iran have been really trying to maintain their influence and their support base in Lebanon at a time where the Lebanese authorities have been trying to, you know, push back against Iranian influence in the country.

[Juan Gonzalez]

And to what degree can the Lebanese government negotiate? Also what happens in terms of Hezbollah? Is it your sense that despite their internal conflict that Hezbollah and the Lebanese government continue to have, have discussions and communication?

[Karim Shahayeb]

Well, the Lebanese government understands that this is a very tricky situation. This is based on officials that we've been speaking to since these discussions began. That, you know, Hezbollah not being part of the conversation in Washington and sort of rejecting these talks, you know, does complicate things in a way. Now in terms of their leverage, they're banking a lot on a few things. They're banking on the fact that, that the ambassador in Washington has very good ties with the US and this was a very strategic pick, as well as the representative who's leading Lebanon's negotiating team, former Ambassador Simon Karam, who has negotiated with the Israelis in the last mechanism after the 2024 ceasefire. And the fact that there were apparently some very positive conversations, according to these officials, between Beirut and Washington. But they certainly understand that the consequences or the results of the Iranian American talks will also play a role as well. They truly are banking on that. And with Hezbollah, they're, you know, they're in a bit of a tricky situation because they received a lot of support and celebration from the United States for saying that they want to disarm all non state actors and assert full state authority and sovereignty on Lebanese territory. But they have been criticized for not taking a more aggressive approach. The Lebby's government says that, you know, there's a risk for a civil war. We don't want to basically seem like we're ostracizing a group of people. And so they've been playing it in a very, you know, in a less aggressive approach where and they say that these things take time, they want more time on this. And they've also been critical of Israel by saying that the ongoing Israeli airstrikes, especially in this recent war, obviously is a major obstacle in them being able to do that because, you know, Israeli troops are continuing to push deeper into Lebanon. So it's a very complicated situation. That's why their approach at the moment is focused on getting a complete ceasefire. And then once they can get that, they can at least negotiate all these other things like Israeli withdrawal and disarming Hezbollah and this whole laundry list of issues. But for them, this idea of negotiating while the airstrikes continue, while the invasion pushes deeper into the country, country further hinders their efforts into achieving what they want, which is complete state authority in the country, which of course includes disarming Hezbollah and other non state groups. So it's a very complicated situation and there's a lot of gaps in these talks, but they are committed to these talks. The president yesterday, President Aoun, said that talks are the least harmful option for Lebanon. So it's the safest option compared to going back into a full scale war. But he did admit that that Lebanon is left with very little choices at this point.

[Amy Goodman]

Can you, Karim, talk about the significance of since March 2, Israel killing some 3,400 people in Lebanon, and you wrote a piece on its seizing large swaths of southern Lebanon, including the medieval Beaufort Castle. The meaning of that and what's happening in Nabataea and Tyre and the hospital that has almost been hit, bombed all around it. And what this means for the Lebanese people and are they shifting their position, giving this level of bombardment?

[Karim Shahayeb]

Certainly. And really over the past week alone, there has been so much to unpack with that military escalation. And literally in just seven days. So the capturing of the Beaufort Castle, you know, it is a 1,000-year-old Crusader castle. It's strategically located because of its elevation. It does not signal anything, you know, sort of beyond that immediate achievement in the sense that it is a 1,000-year-old Crusader castle. It doesn't mean that Israel is going to roll into Beirut tomorrow. But it represents something greater than that which is fearful of a long Term occupation similar of that from 1982 to 2000, you know, the Litany river in southern Lebanon was used as a de facto border in which, you know, Israeli troops are mostly present south of that river and then crossing over into some of these towns close to the city of Nabati, including the towns where the castle is located, sort of symbolized sort of the balance of power at the moment. You know, it definitely ruined a lot of the morale that maybe some people had. There was very little hope in the first place place. And there are concerns that it's unclear where, you know, Israel could go. And now Israeli troops are very close to the city of Nabati, which is, which is a major city in southern Lebanon. And on the flip side, of course, in the coastal city of Tyr is the country's fourth largest city. It was struck heavily in the past, but of course there's a lot of concerns of to what extent Israel is going to push deeper in the southwestern part of Lebanon. A lot of people who are perhaps close to Nabati, close to, to Tyre as well, who are still living there, or maybe they went back home during this nominal ceasefire, are starting to flee again. And these, of course, are major cities in southern Lebanon. And for this kind of push to take place in a period of negotiations, exceptional periods of direct talks to Lebanon, Israel brings a lot of concern that Lebanon really has no skin in the game. But at the same time there's sort of this, I mean, from people I speak to, they understand that Lebanon is kind of in a. It is a weak state, it doesn't have a lot of leverage. And a lot of people are concerned. They sort of feel beholden to the regional and global powers on their fate. Regarding the hospital strike. Yes, there was a strike near the Jabal Amal hospital near the city of Tyre. We're still getting information from the authorities on the extent of the damages. But what you've seen, of course, is significant. There definitely have been several people have been killed, killed, at least a dozen medical workers who lived close to the hospital, wounded. Of course, this brings about great concern. There's already dozens of medical workers and first responders who have been killed in Israeli strikes. Now, Israel says that, you know, some of these paramedics who are affiliated with Hezbollah's medical organization, the Islamic Health Committee, they are accusing them of being involved in military activity. But the Lebanese authorities are pushing back, saying this is not necessarily true. The World Health Organization is coming out with statements about the well being of these hospitals. And of course there's A lot of concern for people who are in these hospitals or need this kind of attention, special medical attention, of what's going to happen to them. And of course, a lot of Lebanese look into what's happening in the Gaza Strip and worry that it could happen to them as well, because, you know, it's something that they've been glued to in the past. So it's definitely brought the morale down. I think a lot of people are definitely questioning Lebanon's ability to really make a change. It doesn't mean a lot of them are turning into the idea of supporting Iran or maybe supporting Hezbollah. Lebanese are still very divided on that. But a lot of Lebanese are questioning whether really any of the fate of the country is in their hands at all in the first place or not. You know, the morale is low despite yesterday's breakthrough, which of course people are relieved about here. But, you know, people understand that this is not the end of the war and an escalation can happen at any point point. The situation is fragile, and no one here thinks otherwise, regardless of whether they support Hezbollah or not.

[Amy Goodman]

Do you think that Israel is bombing Lebanon to this extent because Netanyahu doesn't dare do the same to Iran since Trump is putting pressure on him, but knows that if he bombs Lebanon, that will force Iran to stop negotiating happening?

[Karim Shahayeb]

You know, it's really hard to, you know, to know these things, and, you know, I'm not one to sort of speculate, but what we have seen here at least, is that, you know, there's an understanding that the Israeli authorities are trying to reassure northern people living in northern Israeli towns and villages by the border who have been very concerned by Hezbollah's increased frequency of rocket attacks there. It's been far less frequent than the last war, and you can tell by Hezbollah's military capabilities. But Hezbollah was able to reach just north of the city of Haifa, Nahariya as well. And there have been a lot of measures in North Asia to close down schools and so on. And you can see that there has been sort of an assurance that we're going to keep. That they want to keep them safe. And that's the rhetoric we see from Israeli authorities as well. Well, and it appears that the fact they have pushed deeper into Lebanon, but these attacks are still happening, you know, perhaps has brought some friction, and you can kind of tell from the statements that they need to do more. Our understanding is that there has been a divergence in Israeli U S. Policy on Lebanon, the sense that the United States has not been keen on letting Israel bomb the southern suburbs of Beirut and the heart of the capital. We hear the drones, we hear the jets here, but there have no, there hasn't been any airstrikes here in Beirut in the southern suburbs. It seems they've, they've launched two strikes in the southern suburbs since the ceasefire. And these are, you know, you know, drone strikes targeting apartment buildings where, you know, according to the Israelis, there are, you know, some senior Hezbollah officials who were there. And we kind of saw the US Sort of pushing back against another, a series of strikes against the southern suburbs from what happened yesterday. And you can see that Israeli officials, Minister Ben gvir, for example, saying, you know, we need to, to bomb the southern suburbs. We have to send a message to, you know, to Hezbollah, to the Lebanese government and so on. And this is sort of the push and pull that we're seeing between the United States and Israel when it comes to Lebanon. But we don't know to what extent that will, whether, well, whether, you know, Washington will change its perspective and let Israel bomb Beirut, for example. I think the next couple of days of talks will tell us a lot more about where things are heading, whether or not we will see some sort of convergence between both sides or whether or not things will stay like this in this unstable situation. The United States appears keen to have a ceasefire with Iran and certainly with the Iranian statements coming out, like from Foreign Minister Arakchi, for example, emphasizing on Lebanon's inclusion in their ceasefire, perhaps bombing the southern suburbs would have completely jeopardized the reported gaps being bridged between Washington and Tehran. So it's all interconnected. Even if there's a separate diplomatic track between Lebanon and the Israelis via Washington, it is part of the region in the end, and the Lebanese officials at the highest level are quite aware of that.

[Amy Goodman]

Karim Shahayeb, we want to thank you for being with us. AP journalists based in Beirut. We'll link to your most recent piece. Trump says Israel and Hezbollah have agreed to dial back fighting. Coming up, more than 200 people have now been killed in US military strikes on boats in the Caribbean, Eastern Pacific. Back, we'll speak to Amnesty International. Stay with us. Massive will by Emelmoth Luthi performing in our Democracy now studio. This is democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez. U.S. southern Command says it's killed more than 200 people in over 60 strikes on boats in the Caribbean and Eastern Pacific. The Pentagon's claimed, without evidence, the boats are engaged in narco trafficking operations. UNQUOTE Human rights groups, including Amnesty International, have called the attacks extrajudicial killings and a form of murder. Earlier this year, in March, the aclu, the center for Constitutional Rights, and other legal experts testified at a hearing on the legality of US Boat strikes at the Inter American Commission on Human Rights. This is Angelo Guisado, senior staff attorney at ccr.

[Juan Gonzalez]

The United States unprecedented military campaign, Operation Southern Spear, came without any plausible legal justifications. The world has failed to challenge these assassinations in any meaningful way. The invocation of narco terrorism has empowered President Trump and Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth to publicize the boat strike videos. On social media. They are seen boasting and celebrating the wanton infliction of suffering and death and lampooning the lives of those caught in their crosshairs. We ask that the commission look through this thinly veiled cover and recognize the inhumanity that these actions reflect and the pain they have caused.

[Amy Goodman]

In April, Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia grilled Joint Chiefs of Staff Chair General Dan Kane over the legality of the boat strikes during a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing.

[Juan Gonzalez]

What legal justification could there possibly be that would allow the US Military to strike boats in international waters and kill the occupants of those boats without a showing of evidence that there's narcotics on those boats? I don't have a copy of the order issued to southcom with me today.

[Karim Shahayeb]

It's classified in its own right, which

[Juan Gonzalez]

clearly articulates, based on a variety of. Of criteria, what constitutes a valid military and legally valid target in that theater. And I know. I just want to say, I know and trust that our commanders at Echelon are rigorously following that legal opinion and those legal boundaries upon which we've been issued those orders. And General Kaine, I would encourage, again, my colleagues, I am at a disadvantage. I've seen the legal opinion, but I can't talk about it because it's classified. I've seen the targeting criteria, but I can't talk about them because they're classified. I've seen the secret list of DTOs against whom we have declared war that even they haven't been informed of, but I can't talk about it because it's classified. But I would urge all of my colleagues to go to the SCIF and read the targeting criteria and get briefed about it, and then also look at all of the files of all the strikes that have taken place. I've done that with the first 46 strikes or so. And I think there's a profound mismatch between what is occurring and the underlying assumptions in the legal opinion.

[Amy Goodman]

That was Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia questioning Joint Chiefs of Staff Chair General Dan Kaine in April. We're joined now by Amanda Klassing, National Director of Government Relations and Advocacy at Amnesty International usa. Amanda, you say these actions committed against people who pose no imminent threat to life are extrajudicial killings, a form of murder, and amount to crimes under international law. Explain what's happening as the number passes. 200 of deaths caused by US bombing of boats in the Caribbean and the Pacific.

[Amanda Klassing]

Yeah, thank you so much, Amy, for having me on. So let me start by kind of clearing away the different types of justifications that are coming from the administration and look at the facts. So the first thing that we need to understand is that the US Is not an active conflict with any of these groups. The Eastern Pacific and the Caribbean, they aren't war zones. And drug smuggling is a crime. It is not a military attack. And so the laws of war do not apply in this situation. So if the laws of war don't apply, what does? So these are law enforcement operations. So under human rights law, we apply standards like policing. So the individuals on these boats have a right to life and a right to due process. And a government cannot use lethal force unless there's an imminent threat. And there's no less extreme measure to stop that imminent threat. What we know is that these boats can be interdicted. We know that because boats have in the past been interdicted. They continue to be by the Coast Guard in some situations. And Secretary Rubio himself, in fact, said that the boats could be interdicted, but instead they've decided to bomb them. So under all of these circumstances, there's no lawful reason for these killings. And therefore, we have a state, a government, intentionally killing people outside of any lawful circumstance. And that is an extrajudicial killing, which, as you say, is a form of murder. And so these extrajudicial killings are both strategy and murder is policy. And if that is the case, people of good conscience and US Taxpayers should be outraged, absolutely outraged that their money is going to murder as a policy.

[Juan Gonzalez]

And, Amanda, only a few of the people who've been killed by the US Military in these attacks have even been identified. They've been essentially accused, sentenced, and executed in one fell swoop. From a human rights perspective, how big of an obstacle is the. The virtual anonymity of the victims in terms of their families eventually seeking justice?

[Amanda Klassing]

This is a massive problem. We don't know who these People are. The US Government has not told us who they have killed, why they have killed them, and on what evidence they've made that targeting decision. And so for family members, many of them are experiencing something similar to a disappearance. Their family member has been gone out on a boat and then they've not returned. The reasons why we have some identification is there have been some survivors that have been returned. And I want to also flag that they have not been prosecuted by the United States, They've been returned to their countries, or there have been bodies that have actually, have actually washed up on shore. And some of those bodies can't be identified. We still don't know who they are. And so for families seeking justice, it is extraordinarily difficult to just not know what happened. And for people seeking justice and accountability, the fact that the US has just failed to give any information, not only to the US Public, but they've stonewalled Congress as well. We don't know who they're killing. And that is the policy that they are pursuing.

[Juan Gonzalez]

And can you talk about the difference, let's say, between these series of attacks and previous incidents of extra judicial killings by the US Government, for example, in Yemen and Pakistan and Somalia under President Obama?

[Amanda Klassing]

Yeah, absolutely. So we, of course had significant concerns about the illegality of the drone strikes, the Obama era drone strikes that were extrajudicial killings under a rubric of war of terror. What we see here is using the same war of terror language, but expanding the government overreach to utilizing lethal means. And a significant difference is that while many human rights organizations and legal scholars were concerned about the drone killings, there were some discussions about whether or not this was under an international humanitarian law perspective. In this instance, there is near universal agreement that these are killings that are occurring in law enforcement operations, that drug smuggling under no rubric, could be understood as a military attack. This is an escalation building on the abuses and the. The expansion of executive power under the war of terror model to the use of lethal means against people described as criminals with no evidence.

[Amy Goodman]

And if you can comment, you know, over and over we see these. They look like video games. The bombing of these boats, and we don't even see people. There was one where we saw people, the Pentagon and President Trump. Trump releasing the video game bombings. But the unedited video of a double tack strike on the September 2 attack on the boat where apparently survivors were waving their hands or surrendering, we have never seen them, even though it was demanded by Congress.

[Amanda Klassing]

Yeah, I mean, that instance is particularly troubling so I should note that was September 2nd is when these trumpets strikes started. So we've got the nine months in. And when it came to light that there was in fact a double tap in that instance, it wasn't just that there were survivors. The survivors were there for what we understand to be 45 minutes. So the double tap was over a very long period of time. And absolutely, we should all be demanding that the full video be released. We all need to understand exactly what happened. And whoever is accountable to needs to be held to the highest standard of the law. Now, the gamification of these killings is also extraordinarily worrying. It really takes away the humanity of the people that are being targeted and killed. It makes it look like this is just a game, when in fact it is a terrifying expansion of executive power.

[Amy Goodman]

And finally, Amanda, a bill is being marked up this week in Congress that directly applies. What is Amnesty International calling for?

[Amanda Klassing]

So Amnesty has drafted a letter that we're submitting today to the House Armed Services Committee that outlines the many international law violations that have occurred over the last year and a half, everything from UN Charter violations to these extra judicial killings to the gutting of civilian harm protection mechanisms within the Department of Defense. And we are asking that members of Congress do not fund extrajudicial killings or other international law violations. And American taxpayers should be demanding the same thing. Their hardworking dollars should not be going to a policy of murder.

[Amy Goodman]

I want to thank you, Amanda Klassing, national Director of Government Relations Advocacy Amnesty International USA. Coming up, Stephen Thrack on his new book, the Overseer A manifesto. Back in 20 seconds. We shall overcome,

[Juan Gonzalez]

We shall overcome

[Amanda Klassing]

we

[Juan Gonzalez]

shall overcome One day.

[Amy Goodman]

Deep in my heart, that's Roger Waters performing We Shall Overcome, accompanied by a young Alexander Roatan on cello in the Democracy now studio years ago. This is Democracy now, democracynow.org, i'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez. We end today's show with journalist, author, scholar Stephen Thrasher, formerly the inaugural chair of social justice reporting at the Medill School of Journalism at Northwestern University in Chicago. But in 2024, after students set up a Palestine Solidarity encampment to protest the Gaza genocide, Thrasher linked arms with other faculty to stop police from violently evicting the students. He ended up brutalized himself. The university then filed criminal charges against Thrasher, which were later dismissed. But the next two years of Thrasher's classes were cancelled and he was denied tenure. He told Democracy now at the time, what they don't like is that I'm now applying the same social justice journalism principles that have applied to radical race and that I've applied to LGBTQ people, to Covid and hiv, that I was now applying those to Palestine, he said. Stephen Thrasher is the author of the award winning book the Viral the Human Toll When Inequality and Disease Collide. He's now out with a new book titled the Overseer, a manifesto in which he explores, quote, a phenomenon in which people from marginalized populations amass power not by uplifting people from the communities they come from, but by collect, cracking the skulls of their own. Stephen Thrasher is here in New York to present a film series he programmed inspired by his book called Black Spies and Overseers. The series will play at the Bamro Cinemas in Brooklyn starting June 5th. Stephen Thrasher, welcome to Democracy Now. How does your own experience link to your new book?

[Stephen Thrasher]

I have been reporting on police violence for many years. The first time I was on Democracy Now, I was talking about the nypd and I saw when I was reporting in Ferguson, a dynamic that I have seen many times of a white police officer either beating or killing a black person. And I noticed that as America grew more structurally critical of policing, that I was seeing a figure of black cops over and over again, that black cops were appearing in movies, that I was seeing them as talking heads on CNN and msnbc and of course, running for many political offices. Joe Biden choosing two black women prosecutors on his final list before choosing Kamala Harris. And so I started thinking about the ways that black cops are kind of rehabilitating police departments, as are women cops and LGBTQ cops, as Americans were more critical of what policing did and how violent it inherently is, the more often these people were dispatched, and those are the people who I call overseers, the ones who are who rule between the ruling class and the working class.

[Juan Gonzalez]

But Steve, isn't this essentially a historical problem that has existed not just in the U.S. but in other countries? I think of apartheid South Africa, when many of the troops of the South African minority white regime were themselves black and were put to repress their own people. Or even, even in many parts of Nazi occupied Germany, where the actual people delivering the repression in these various countries were from those countries, even though the Nazis were the occupiers.

[Stephen Thrasher]

Well, that's really an important point. Juan and I got to travel through Africa, through South Africa and Uganda in the fall. And it was interesting hearing people say, why do you in America even think that there would be an alliance between black cops and and black people? Because everybody here is Black. And so they don'tyou know, they don't think of a racial container of solidarity that we often think about here in South Africa. When I was visiting Prison 4, which is where Mandela was briefly kept before going to Robben Island, Gandhi was also kept there. The tour guide did explain to me that the white guards would walk along the top of the, you know, the perimeter, but it would be black guards who would be sent onto the yard to do the more intimate policing. And you write to bring up the case of capos in the concentration camps, who are people who collaborated with the Nazis. And I'm thinking historically, too, on this. I'm thinking back to when overseers were literally the people who worked on plantations and made sure that enslaved workers worked as hard as they possibly could on behalf of the master. That person was usually white, but they were sometimes black. And the white overseers often had black drivers who worked with him. And those were the people that the master exploited, the close kinship, the relationship, to try to get a more intimate level of surveillance and to try to get more work and more value out of what they were doing.

[Juan Gonzalez]

And you posted during the Gaza campus protest at Columbia University, you said, going to see Columbia University's first Arab president work with New York City's black cop mayor, Eric Adams, and with the nypd, first Latino chief, Edward Caban, to arrest as many diverse students as possible. You talk about this first narrative and this individualistic view of how achievement occurs in America. Could you elaborate on that?

[Stephen Thrasher]

Yeah. So what I found in college campuses was that we diversified the disciplinarian apparatus and nothing else. So I looked, I saw that at Columbia, when I was beaten up at Northwestern, it was the black chief of police who manhandled me personally. And then I started thinking about how I'd seen black cops, chief cops at the University of Chicago, at Northwestern, at NYU, at Columbia. I looked at 22 schools I'd reported on. 19 had a black chief of police. And just looking at those 19 schools, to create sort of a control for the variable, they had 100% black cops. At those 19 schools, they only had about 5% black students, 6% black faculty. So what I saw was that often chiefs of police, deans, middle managers, people with positions of some power, they're often diversified in this way. And those are the people dispatched as overseers. But they're not there to help, you know, people like them, they're really there to crack their skulls. And I certainly saw that that's an exploitation of identity. We, you know, it's gay Pride Month right now. I could have an affinity with someone like Karine Jean Pierre, who hailed herself as the first LGBTQ press secretary, but she was also the face of the genocide of Gaza. And she's been going out on kind of a press rehabilitation tour right now. You know, trying to get back in people's good graces instead of the Overseer dynamic makes it so that we are supposed to feel an affinity with someone like her because she's the first to do this. But we could have a sense of affinity with other LGBTQ people in Gaza, with LGBTQ people in Iran, with LGBTQ people in any of the countries that have been bombed by the United States. And people in those positions try to ally and obscure the horizontal connection we have to people we could feel solidarity with and instead want us to feel it for this first person who's often suppressing the group that we're from.

[Amy Goodman]

We just have a minute, then we're going to do a post show. Stephen Thrasher, but you, in fact, fact, applied to be a New York police officer back in 2003. Can you talk about what led you to consider that and your motivations to write this book?

[Stephen Thrasher]

I'm prepared to get canceled for that. But I also want to show people that you can change over time. The reason I applied was because I needed a job. You know, I'd gone to film school. I had a lot of student debt. I wasn't getting media work. I had previously applied to be a teaching fellow. I didn't get that. And so I applied for this job. And I think. I think when we are critical of the fact that a majority of ICE agents are Latino, we also have to wrestle with the fact that ICE is the major hiring program of the federal government right now. And so we need to give people options for things they can do for a living and not just rely on individual moral decisions for how to deal with these systemic problems.

[Amy Goodman]

And in the last 10 seconds, Dei, the Trump administration's attack on it. And your thoughts. Thoughts on it.

[Stephen Thrasher]

I make a critique of DEI that's different from the Trump administration's. I think DEI doesn't go far enough. What the Trump administration is doing is racist.

[Amy Goodman]

We're going to talk more about this in our post show conversation, which folks can [e-mail] Stephen Thrasher, author of the new book the Overseer A Manifesto. He's in New York to present a film series inspired by his book called Black Cops, Spies and Overseers. It's at the Bam Rose Cinemas in Brooklyn starting June 5th. We'll talk about that in the Post show as well. That does it for our show. I'll be speaking after the showing of Steal a story, please at IFC on Thursday, June 4, along with the film's director. At 6:30 on Friday, I'll be in Tampa. We'll be celebrating WMF and the screening at Sunray Cinema and on Saturday and Sunday at the O Cinema in Miami. You can get [e-mail] I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez for another edition of Democracy Now.