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- [00:15]
Amy Goodman
From New York. This is democracy now. There are dozens of collapsed buildings and we are at this moment working very hard in rescue operations to save the lives that God permits us to save. I want to say that this, this is a true tragedy. Thousands are feared dead in Venezuela, if not tens of thousands. After two major earthquakes toppled buildings in Caracas and other areas, rescue workers are desperately looking for survivors. The worst earthquake in a century. We'll get the latest then to Texas, where a federal judge has handed down prison sentences ranging from 30 to 100 years to a group of anti ICE protesters. One man was sentenced to 30 years for simply moving a box of anti fascist zines. We'll speak to a lawyer in the case and a journalist who covered the trial.
- [01:23]
Matt Sledge
This was the first time, according to the Trump administration, that they charged people as terrorists who were alleged antifa members. And the administration secured some very long convictions, which were immediately trumpeted by Kash Patel and Attorney General Todd Blanche.
- [01:45]
Amy Goodman
And we speak to the acclaimed journalist and tech activist Cory Doctorow, author of the new book the Reverse Centaur's Guide to Life After AI how to Think About Artificial Intelligence Before It's Too Late.
- [02:02]
Cory Doctorow
The thing we really need to be worrying about right now is what happens when the bubble pop and 35% of the economy is vaporized. Not that the software that can't do your job is going to take your job. Your boss will give it your job, but it can't do your job.
- [02:15]
Amy Goodman
All that and more coming up. Welcome to democracy now. Democracynow.org, the war and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. Venezuela's acting president, Elsie Rodriguez has declared a state of emergency after scores of people were killed and over 1,000 injured by two powerful earthquakes that struck near the capital Caracas on Wednesday evening. The death toll is currently at over 160, but likely to continue rising as rescue workers frantically search for survivors in the rubble of at least dozens of collapsed buildings. The first earthquake, registered 7.2 on the Richter scale, was followed less than a minute later by an even more powerful 7.5 magnitude earthquake. This is a survivor.
- [03:12]
Cory Doctorow
Fortunately, my family, my wife, my granddaughter
- [03:15]
Alejandro Velasco
and I were out of the apartment building.
- [03:17]
Cory Doctorow
When we got back, we saw it was completely destroyed.
- [03:20]
Amy Goodman
Luckily, the neighbors managed to save their lives, too. What can I say?
- [03:25]
Cory Doctorow
How many families are going to end up like this?
- [03:27]
Amy Goodman
With destroyed buildings in Caracas? The US Geological Survey warns there's a high chance the death toll could rise into the tens of thousands or even top 100,000. Wednesday's earthquakes follow U.S. airstrikes on Caracas and other Venezuelan cities in January, which came after 20 years of devastating US sanctions that left Caracas electrical grid and other infrastructure in disrepair after headlines were will talk about what's happening there. The White House has asked Congress to approve nearly $88 billion in supplemental funding, mostly to cover the cost of the US war in Iran. That's down from the $200 billion request floated by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth in March, but still dwarfs the pace of military spending. During the height of the US occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. On Wednesday, Secretary of State Marco Rubio met with Gulf allies in Kuwait, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates. He said technical talks with Iran are scheduled for next week in Geneva and ruled out any deal in which Iran would charge a fee for passage through the Strait of Hormuz.
- [04:45]
Alejandro Velasco
I know of no country on the
- [04:46]
Cory Doctorow
planet that supports tolling or a fee
- [04:50]
Alejandro Velasco
for the use of the straits. That's just not, that's not going to happen. The President has been abundantly clear.
- [04:56]
Amy Goodman
Israeli attacks killed at least two people in southern Lebanon Wednesday. Coming despite the renewed ceasefire between the US and Iran, which requires an end to Israel's occupation of southern Lebanon. On Wednesday, the US hosted another round of talks between Israeli and Lebanese diplomats. Once again, Hezbollah was not a party to the talks. In Tel Aviv, Israeli Defense Minister Israel Katz said Israeli troops would not withdraw from southern Lebanon.
- [05:27]
Alejandro Velasco
The IDF is prepared and we are not retreating. We announce that in any case we are not withdrawing and as of this moment this is a political achievement. There is no American demand for Israel to withdraw from Lebanon.
- [05:40]
Amy Goodman
In Gaza, an Israeli drone struck a tent housing displaced Palestinians in Al Mawasi on Wednesday, killing a 12 year old child and wounding several others. The attack came one day after a United Nations Commission of inquiry reported Israel Israel's deliberate targeting of children as part of an ongoing genocide against Gaza's Palestinian population. In the occupied West Bank, Israeli forces shot and killed a 29 year old Palestinian man during a raid on the town of Al Yamun, west of Jenin. Meanwhile, the Palestinian journalist Mujahid Bani Mufla has released shocking images taken before and after he was jailed by Israel without charge in a so called administrative detention. Banu Mufla says during his six months in captivity he was starved and abused. He suffered a severe brain hemorrhage just two days after his release and had to have parts of his skull removed. In a statement, the Palestinian Prisoners Society says Mufla is not an isolated case and that quote, thousands have been subjected to systematic violations inside Israeli prisons, including torture, starvation, denial of treatment, physical and psychological assaults in addition to continuous psychological terror. San Jose State University has been ordered to reinstate a tenured professor who was fired for her pro Palestinian activism. An arbitrator issued the order to rehire Professor Sankil after finding her dismissal was excessive and disproportionate, unquote. Professor Keel hailed the ruling as a, quote, victory for academic freedom on campus and pro Palestine speech, unquote. Keel had been fired after participating in three on campus demonstrations over the war in Gaza. She also served as faculty advisor to Students for Justice in Palestine. President Trump abruptly called off plans to sign a bipartisan housing bill on Wednesday, less than two hours before a scheduled signing ceremony. On social media, Trump declared declared the event was, quote, hereby cancelled until such a time as we pass the desperately needed Save America act, which I consider to be a national emergency, he wrote. The legislation would require voters to produce passports or birth certificates showing their current name in order to register to vote or update voter registration information. Voting rights experts say it could disenfranchise millions of citizens. Meanwhile, Trump visited Capitol Hill for a closed door meeting with Senate Republicans where he castigated them for refusing to abolish the filibuster in order to pass the Save America Act. The meeting reportedly devolved into a shouting match between Trump And Louisiana Senator Dr. Bill Cassidy, who sided with most Democrats and three other Republican senators in favor of a resolution ordering Trump end the US war in Iran. Following the meeting, the Senate voted 45 to 50 to defeat a second, nearly identical war powers resolution on Iran after Senator Cassidy reversed his vote and Kentucky Republican Senator Ron Paul voted present Ukraine's intensifying its attacks inside Russia, striking a major natural gas processing plant, one of the largest in the world. In addition, Ukraine struck two key satellite communications centers inside Russia. A Ukrainian drone also struck an apartment building in a Russian held area of the Donetsk region. At least three people were killed. Meanwhile, a Russian artillery strike in the Kherson region of Ukraine killed two mine disposal experts from the Oslo based charity Norwegian People's Aid. And in Moscow, the prominent anti war politician Maxime Kruglov has been sentenced to seven years in prison. He was convicted of spreading false information about the Russian military for posting messages online about civilian deaths in Ukraine. Kruglaf is the deputy leader of the liberal Yabloko Party in Russia. The party's former leader, Sergei Matrokhin, condemned the sentence.
- [10:13]
Cory Doctorow
The prosecutor and the investigator did not even hesitate to accuse him of disagreeing with the political course of the country's leadership. For that, he was now given seven years. What can I say? I think this is a return to the darkest times.
- [10:27]
Amy Goodman
A U.S. appeals court cleared the way for the Trump administration to resume the expedited mass deportation of immigrants without a chance to appear before a judge. On Tuesday, a three judge panel of the U.S. court of Appeals for the D.C. circuit delivered a split 2 to 1 ruling that overturned a lower court's ruling that fast track deportations far from the US Border likely violate the due process rights of immigrants. Both the judges who sided with the Trump administration are appointees of President Trump. In a dissenting opinion, Circuit Judge Robert Wilkins wrote, quote, due process does not wait for a final removal order to be issued by before it is owed. Meanwhile, a federal judge in California has barred Trump administration from making arrests at immigration courts nationwide. The ruling also limits the amount of time people arrested for immigration violations can be jailed. This follows a ruling by a separate federal judge last month barring arrests at New York courthouses. The Pentagon's reverse course and will once again Require flu vaccines for all recruits In April, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth made the flu shot optional, citing what he called medical autonomy and religious freedom. However, the Pentagon reinstated the vaccine mandate after a flu outbreak at Lackland Air base sickened nearly 300 people, a source told the Associated Press. Just 40% of new recruits opted to receive the flu shot after Hegseth made it optional. The intelligence alliance known as Five Eyes is warning that powerful new artificial intelligence models are rapidly becoming capable of devastating cyber attacks against governments and businesses. In a rare joint statement, intelligence Officers from the U.S. uK, Australia, New Zealand and Canada warn that generative AI models could soon lower barriers for malicious hackers while vastly increasing the speed and compliance complexity of cyberattacks. This comes after the Trump administration ordered Anthropic to limit access to its Fable and Mythos AI models after they proved highly adept at exploiting critical software vulnerabilities. According to a report in the Economist, an anthropic AI agent was able to penetrate nearly all classified systems managed by the NSA and US Cyber Command within hours. And in Peru, Keiko Fujimori, daughter of the former dictator Alberto Fujimori, appears poised to become Peru's next president. The far right Fujimori has a 43,000 vote lead over the leftist lawmaker Rivero Sanchez. Election Officials say only 40,000 ballots remain to be counted. On Tuesday, Sanchez said he would not recognize results of the presidential runoff, alleging votes cast by Peruvians outside Peru were processed improperly. Sanchez received more votes than Fujimori inside Peru, but Fujimori won the election because she received 65% of the vote from Peruvians living outside Peru. Sanchez spoke in Lima Tuesday.
- [14:00]
Alejandro Velasco
A fraud is underway today before the national elections jury. We filed the annulment yesterday precisely to stop this illegality. If the national elections jury does not act in accordance with the law, in accordance with transparency, because the transparency we
- [14:14]
Cory Doctorow
have requested for the vote recount, they do not want to consider it.
- [14:18]
Alejandro Velasco
What are they hiding?
- [14:20]
Amy Goodman
And those are some of the headlines. This is democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman.
- [14:28]
Nermeen Shaikh
And I'm Nermeen Shaikh. Welcome to our listeners and viewers across the country and around the world. We begin today in Venezuela, where thousands are feared dead after back to back powerful earthquakes struck the country Wednesday evening. Collapsing buildings in the capital, Caracas. And Venezuela's acting president, Del C. Rodriguez has declared a state of emergency as rescue workers frantically search for survivors in the rubble of dozens of collapsed buildings. The current death toll is at 164, with 1,000 people injured. But the US Geological Survey warns there's a high chance the death toll could rise into the tens of thousands or even top 100,000.
- [15:09]
Amy Goodman
The first earthquake registered 7.2 on the Richter scale and was followed less than a minute later by more powerful 7.5 magnitude earthquake. It's the most powerful earthquake to hit Venezuela in a century. This is Acting President Del C. Rodriguez speaking on state television earlier today. I want to inform that the state
- [15:36]
Nermeen Shaikh
most affected by this incalculable seismic phenomenon
- [15:41]
Amy Goodman
is La Guaya State. There are dozens of collapsed buildings and we are at this moment working very hard in rescue operations to save the lives that God permits us to save.
- [15:53]
Nermeen Shaikh
On Wednesday night, Caracas resident Avilio Gonzalez returned home to find his building completely destroyed.
- [16:03]
Cory Doctorow
Fortunately, my family, my wife, my granddaughter
- [16:06]
Amy Goodman
and I were out of the apartment building.
- [16:08]
Cory Doctorow
When we got back, we saw it was completely destroyed.
- [16:11]
Amy Goodman
Luckily, the neighbors managed to save their lives, too.
- [16:15]
Nermeen Shaikh
What can I say?
- [16:16]
Cory Doctorow
How many families are going to end
- [16:17]
Amy Goodman
up like this with destroyed buildings? In Caracas, another Caracas resident, Maria Alejandro, was inside a building when the quakes hit. I was here when I managed to get dressed. He helped me and all the walls were cracked. We managed to open the door however we could. There was a cloud of smoke that wouldn't let us out. And when we went downstairs, the scene was like a horror movie. For more, we're joined by Alejandro Velasco, associate professor at New York University, where he's a historian of modern Latin America. Velasco is a former executive editor of Nakhla report on the Americas, author of Barrio Urban Popular Politics and the Making of Modern Venezuela. He was born and raised in Venezuela, has been in touch with his friends and family there. Thanks so much for joining us. As you drive here in the United States. United States, what is the latest you've heard? Alejandro,
- [17:19]
Alejandro Velasco
thanks so much for having me and for keeping track of this story. I mean, the latest is, of course, that things are fast moving and my friends and family there are just in a state of shock, you know, not only for the images that we're seeing, but just like the utter devastation on top of what has already been a really difficult six months in Venezuela more. And so, you know, it's the source of concern. People are desperately trying to find loved ones. There's also, of course, folks, so many Venezuelans are abroad who are trying to get in touch with their loved ones in Venezuela and are having a hard time doing so. It took me about 45 minutes to get a hold of my dad, who was about an hour and a half west of Caracas. Thankfully, he says. But yeah, what we're hearing now is that people are just completely in shock and are desperately trying to find out any news about their loved ones and relatives.
- [18:15]
Nermeen Shaikh
And Alejandro, how prepared is Venezuela in general for seismic activity? Given its location, it is especially vulnerable.
- [18:27]
Alejandro Velasco
That's correct. The last major earthquake to hit the capital region was in 1967. At the time, there was upwards of 300 fatalities and over 1,500 injured. Buildings collapsed. This is, as Amy mentioned, the strongest earthquakes have been recorded in over 100 years. And so in terms of preparation, yes, Venezuela, especially in that coastal range region, it's not unprepared for seismic events, but of course, the infrastructure and the security apparatus, but also just in terms of the personnel, because of the economic and political crisis that we've had in Venezuela for so long, especially for something of the scale that we're seeing right now, it's match for the devastation. And so it's been gratifying to hear from neighboring countries, even those that have had very significant ideological opposition to Venezuela, like the new government in Chile, saying that they are ready to deploy assistance, whether it be personnel or material, to Venezuela. So that at least has been really quite gratifying to see.
- [19:37]
Nermeen Shaikh
And there have also been reports, Alejandro, of disruptions, understandably disruptions to the Internet. So is is it possible that we don't really know the extent of the damage in areas outside Caracas?
- [19:52]
Alejandro Velasco
That is absolutely the case. And it is also true that again, amidst the economic crisis of Venezuela, it's been mostly Caracas that has kind of lived in a little bit of a bubble in terms of services, in terms of attention to infrastructure and whatnot. And it's the outer regions, the provinces where there's far less attention paid. And so, you know, some reports that we're getting out of further out states like Bolivar suggest that there's significant militarization and control of information. And so it's certainly possible not only that we don't know the extent of the damage, but even if we, you know, had perfect Internet connection, even in that situation, I think the extent of the, of the earthquake and the devastation is going to take us days, if not weeks to really get a hold of.
- [20:44]
Amy Goodman
And finally, Alejandro, since we have you on and you're a historian of modern Latin America, your response toit looks like in Colombia, the right wing candidate de la Espriella has been announced the winner of the presidential election there to replace the leftist President Petro, and that Fujimore is poised to take, take control of Peru.
- [21:14]
Alejandro Velasco
Yeah, I mean, we're seeing, I think in Latin America the pendulum swing, which, you know, began a few years back with Bukele and El Salvador and then Milei and in Argentina, you know, obviously the left had been in significant turmoil for some years and that has affected economic development in several countries. So in some ways what we're seeing is a kind of shift to populist rights. I think what's really significant about Colombia in particular, of course, is that the election was so tight and we're getting reports now that the margin of victory really was held, as in the case of Peru, by Colombians living abroad. And so I think that's suggesting something about the shifting dynamics of electoral politics and power plays in Latin America, where it's not so much the domestic constituencies that are calling the significant shots, but it's the expatriate constituencies which have very different interests and alignments that they are motivated by. And of course, in the case of Colombia, the closeness of the election also suggests that it's going to be even beyond the pendulum swing from left to right. It's already going to be extremely difficult to govern in a situation where the incoming president has such a narrow mandate of victory.
- [22:31]
Amy Goodman
Alejandro Velasco, we thank you so much for being with us at this breaking news in Venezuela. I hope that your family is okay. Your father right near the epicenter of the court earthquakes. Alejandro Velasco, associate professor at NYU where he's historian of modern Latin America, former executive editor of Nakola Report on the Americas and author of Barrio Rising. Thanks so much for being there. Coming up next, the Prairieland case. A federal judge has handed down prison sentences ranging from 30 to 100 years for a group of anti ICE protesters. Stay with us.
- [23:17]
Nermeen Shaikh
Naturales.
- [24:19]
Amy Goodman
Contortodo Against Everything by the Puerto Rican singer and songwriter Ile performing in our Democracy now studio. This is democracynow. Democracynow.org, i'm Amy Goodman with Nermeen Shaikh.
- [24:31]
Nermeen Shaikh
We turn now to a case that's been widely seen as a test case of the Trump administration's crackdown on dissent. On Tuesday, a federal judge in Texas handed down unusually harsh sentences ranging from 30 to 100 years to a group of anti ICE protesters convicted of terrorism charges in March. Federal prosecutors had accused the nine defendants of being members of a North Texas quote, antifa terror cell for attending a protest outside the Prairie Land Ice Jail on July 4th of last year during which fireworks were set off and a police officer was shot and wounded.
- [25:08]
Amy Goodman
Among those sentenced was Daniel Sanchez Estrada, who wasn't even at the protest. He received a 30 year prison term for conspiracy to conceal documents after he moved a box containing anti fascist magazines and pamphlets. Another protester, Autumn Hill, received a sentence of 50 years after being convicted of rioting, providing material support to terrorists, conspiracy to use and carry an explosive, and use and carry of an explosive device, which was fireworks. This is Hill's wife, Lydia Koza, speaking after the conviction in March.
- [25:56]
Cory Doctorow
Federal prosecutors in this case told a panel of Northern District of Texas residents with a straight face that lighting off fireworks on the 4th of July was terrorism, was a riot.
- [26:13]
Amy Goodman
I cannot think of anything more un
- [26:14]
Cory Doctorow
American than that and I cannot think
- [26:17]
Alejandro Velasco
of anything more inhumane than the horrors
- [26:20]
Cory Doctorow
that ICE is inflicting through its state
- [26:22]
Amy Goodman
terror on our communities.
- [26:26]
Nermeen Shaikh
Acting U.S. attorney General Todd Blanche welcomed the unusually harsh sentences, writing that, quote, antifa terrorists who attack law enforcement and federal facilities will face swift and uncompromising justice. Their violent extremism has no place in our country. And the Department of Justice will continue to aggress, investigate, disrupt and prosecute those who threaten law enforcement officers or undermine the rule of law, end quote. Former U.S. marine Corps Reservist Benjamin Song, who was convicted of the shooting, received a hundred year sentence. In a statement, he said he only fired his rifle because he believed the officer was about to shoot. Another activist, Song said others had been punished just for knowing him, adding, this is mass punishment, collective punishment. This is guilt by association. This is injustice, he wrote.
- [27:18]
Amy Goodman
On Wednesday, Democracy now reached out to federal public defender Jason Hawkins. He said, quote, we have no comment other than we look forward to appealing both the conviction and sentence. For more, we're joined now by two guests. Sufiyeh Khalid is deputy director of the National Security Criminal Defense center at the Muslim Legal Fund of America. Joining us from Dallas, Texas, she represents one of the Prairieland defendants, Marisela Rueda, at the sentencing on Tuesday and will be representing her on the appeal. Rueda received a 70 year sentence for her alleged role in a Noyes demonstration outside the Prairieland ICE jail that the government charged as material support of antifa terrorists and an obstruction charge for allegedly asking her husband to move boxes of Zines magazines after her arrest. And from Baltimore, Maryland, we're joined by Matt Sledge, political reporter for the Intercept, who's been covering the Prairieland case and just returned from the sentencing hearing. His latest piece headlined Prairieland defendant sentenced to 30 years in prison for Moving a Box of Anti Fascist Zines. Let's go first to Sophia Khadija. Explain what took place in this courtroom, what your client now faces as well as the others.
- [28:45]
Sufiyeh Khalid
Thank you for having me, Amy. So what happened on Tuesday, it's shocking to all of us, devastating to the families. 50 to 100 year sentences, those are essentially life sentences for all of the young people in this case, largely of whom were engaged in nonviolent protest at an ICE detention facility. How did we get here? So the government in this case sought a novel first time that this has happeneduse of a rarely used statute, the provision of material support to terrorists. And that has not been used in the purely domestic context for this kind of content conduct. That statute also does not require any connection to a domestic terrorist organization or any kind of a domestic terrorist organization. When the government sought prosecution under this statute, they sought to seek a very dangerous precedent that now allows them to target any American engaged in protests that results in even the most, most minor damage to property, property destruction. Any American can be targeted that way. Now, it does not require ties to antifa or to any domestic terrorist organization. It just requires one of these underlying statutes. That's a dangerous precedent. And what allowed them to stack these charges so high on Tuesday? On Tuesday, what happened is, is the federal sentencing people were anticipating maximum sentences of 20 years, maybe 30 years. The way they reached this sentence is the judge used this very rarely used and the most extreme federal sentencing guideline called the Terrorism Enhancement to inflict maximum sentences on every count of conviction for these defendants and then abused his discretion to do something that is very rarely done in cases like this. He ordered each sentence to be served consecutively, not Concurrently. So each sentence is served consecutively, resulting in sentences for 50 to 100 years in these cases. That terrorism enhancement that I mentioned only requires that the offense is calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government through, through intimidation or retaliation. That's a very, very broadhas, a very broad application. And the government in past recent years has sought that in a lot of these prosecutions that people don't pay a lot of attention to. And so now it's very broadly applied. Seeking it in this case meant that the guidelines, you know, this sort of federal sentencing structure that's supposed to take, tailor a sentence to each defendant, my client, for example, a young mother to a 12 year old daughter, artist, a poet, never been in trouble with the law, never even missed a parking ticket. The sentences are supposed to account for all of these unique situations, the fact, you know, that she has no criminal history. But the terrorism enhancement undoes all of that. It recommends a maximum sentence on every charge for every defendant. That's how it operates because it automatically designates them as a career offender. It's particularly abusive in this case though, because it results in a significantly unwarranted sentencing disparity in the United States amongst defendants that have been convicted of similar conduct. Now, in these kinds of cases, where the government is bringing a novel charge under a rarely used statute and terrorism, you may only have a couple or handful of cases that are relevant to kind of distinguish your client or show where the, you know, expected range should be. But in this case, we actually had 1500 plus very recent federal prosecutions related to similar conduct that should have informed what these sentences should have looked like. And that was of the January 6th defendants. The January 6th defendants were involved in rioting, carrying massive arsenals of weapons. Lots of discussions ahead of time that didn't exist in this case about targeting law enforcement, wanting to kill members of Congress, them actually storming the Capitol. And it resulted in injury of 140 officers in that case. The government in that case could have sought prosecution under this same material supportive terrorism statute. They didn't for those defendants. And they could have sought the terrorism enhancement in those cases because it applied, I told you that vague, calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government could have applied it in all of those prosecutions. It only sought them in a small handful. And where they sought the terrorism enhancement, the courts then rightly decided not to apply it in the vast majority of the small selection of cases where they sought it because they sought that it was overkill, not representative, and would result in unwarranted sentencing disparity. The average sentence in the Capitol riots, which had far more serious conduct than the Prairieline 9 defendants, was 26 months. So we have a massive unwarranted sentencing disparity here. What happened in the court in Fort Worth was unconstitutional and she should concern everybody in this country in the direction that it is taking us.
- [34:29]
Nermeen Shaikh
Sofia, could you talk about this sentencing in the context of a presidential memo issued by Trump in September 2025, that is to say the national security presidential memorandum seven, which is titled countering Domestic Terrorism and Organized Political Violence.
- [34:52]
Sufiyeh Khalid
Yes, that is how we got here. So in that memorandum, the president ordered the DoJ to change the definition of what is a domestic terrorist. When you hear domestic terrorism, when people see antifa in these headlines, Antifa receives 50 to 100 years, their mind clicks off because you hear domestic terrorism and you assume it, it must be really serious, it must be violent, it must be planned mass violence. That's not what happened here. And in that memorandum, they changed the definition to domestic terrorism to include trespass, property damage and civil disorder for people with specific political leanings. Anti fascist, anti Christian, anti traditional values. So now anyone engaged in basic protest with the wrong political beliefs can be labeled a domestic terrorist when they have no intention to violence, not engaged in any violence, not interested in any violence, not what we would typically think of domestic terrorism. This can be minor trespass, civil disorder, even doxxing reporting somebody online what their identity is. That can all result, result in this domestic terrorism tab. And in that presidential memorandum, they ordered prosecutors to seek the highest charge and seek terrorism charges in these political prosecutions. And that's what happened here, what didn't happen in the January 6th cases, and that was political enough. The courts were right there not to seek the terrorism enhancement or terrorism charges, but it is happening here. And the problem is, is this precedent lasts, that statute, this is now what the precedent is forwhat can be charged as domestic terrorism in the United States. The administration changes every four years. So this will be applied to both sides. So it should. It concerns every American. If you're left, if you're right, if you're in the middle, this concerns everyone. A government that punishes its nonviolent criticism, critics 10 times more harshly, actually, in this case, 30 times more harshly than its violent insurrectionist supporters. Is not a democracy in any meaningful sense.
- [37:10]
Amy Goodman
I want to bring Matt Sledge into the conversation who's been writing some really interesting pieces for the Intercept. Matt. The acting U.S. attorney General, Todd Blanche, whose President Trump is trying to make permanent welcomed the unusually harsh sentences, writing, quote, antifa terrorists who attack law enforcement in federal facilities. A swift and uncompromising justice. Their violent extremism has no place in our country. The Department of Justice will continue to aggressively investigate, disrupt and prosecute those who threaten law enforcement officers or undermine the rule of law. Your response to what has taken place?
- [37:51]
Matt Sledge
Yeah, I mean, I think you can tell from that statement from the acting attorney general that that a playbook has now been set and it's going to be pursued in places like Minnesota. A grand jury in Illinois was obviously more skeptical about similar charges, but I think the administration is going to keep pursuing really aggressive charges like this. And they have received a message from these judges now in Fort Worth Worth that they can secure some really harsh sentences from pursuing this playbook.
- [38:29]
Nermeen Shaikh
And what do you expect, Matt, the precedent that this sets for people participating in protests elsewhere around the country on different issues?
- [38:41]
Matt Sledge
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, some protesters, it will make them think twice about, you know, even going out for, you know, nonviolent daytime demonstrations when, you know, conduct can be painted as criminal and, you know, can be so aggressively prosecuted in places like Texas.
- [39:06]
Amy Goodman
You note in your piece, Matt, that several defendants received sentences longer than many. Of course, of the January 6th defendants, you talk about former U.S. marine Corps Reservist Benjamin Song, convicted of the the shooting, receiving a hundred year sentence. He said he fired only because he thought an officer was about to shoot another activist. And he also talked about the collective punishment of all of these defendants. He said anyone who had relationship with him. Talk more about who Song is. And also the fact that these people on a July 4th weekend had fireworks, as they're referred to now, explosions, explosives.
- [39:49]
Matt Sledge
Yes. Song is former military and was painted by the prosecutors as kind of a ringleader in this, you know, brought weapons to the demonstration. Many of the other folks there did not bring weapons. Some of them brought fireworks. And you know, they say that their intention was just to shoot those fireworks off and show solidarity with folks inside the ICE detention facility. You know, several of them spoke at the sentencing on Tuesday and said they never intended to hurt anybody. One person described a festive atmosphere before the police came. Many of the people who showed up that night were gone by the time the shooting actually started. But you know, this incident between the responding police and Song, which results in one of the police officers wounded, is really the spark for a very wide reaching manhunt in the Dallas, Fort Worth area that rolled up a bunch of people associated with Song and is, you know, just a huge chunk of the kind of left wing activist cohort in the Dallas Fort Worth area.
- [41:04]
Amy Goodman
In this last minute, we have Matt Sledding, what struck you most? I mean, you're referring to all these cases that of course, we've been covering. In Chicago, a first grand jury going after anti ICE protesters had voted not to indict. And now everything has come out and everything has been put aside the charges. Once the judge started to read the grand jury transfer transcripts, you've got a case in Tacoma. What are you concluding at this point? What do you think is most important to follow?
- [41:43]
Matt Sledge
You know, I think we just have to watch for this playbook to be applied elsewhere. In North Texas, in the Fort Worth area, the federal government obviously found judges and jurors who were were receptive to their arguments. So I think they may be looking elsewhere to find judges and juries who are similarly receptive.
- [42:07]
Amy Goodman
We want to thank you so much for being with us. Matt Sledge, political reporter for the Intercept. We'll link to your articles@democracynow.org, and Sophia Khalid, deputy director of the National Security Criminal Defense center at the Muslim Legal Fund of America, representing one of the PRAIRIELAND defendants, Marcel LaRue. Coming up, we speak with acclaimed journalists, tech activist, sci fi writer Cory Doctorow, author of a new book, the Reverse Centaur's Guide to Life After AI how to Think About Artificial Intelligence Before It's Too Late. Stay with us.
- [42:50]
Alejandro Velasco
In the room.
- [43:30]
Amy Goodman
Living in Dystropia by Sarah Michelle Ozell. This is democracy now, democracynow.org I'm Amy Goodman with Nermeen Shaikh.
- [43:38]
Nermeen Shaikh
Earlier this month, Elon Musk became the world's first trillionaire when his company, SpaceX, went public in the biggest IPO in Wall street history. SpaceX's spaceflight, satellite, Internet, social media and AI conglomerate. The value of SpaceX initially soared, but it's since fallen as part of a global sell off in tech stocks. On Wednesday, Bloomberg reported that Musk had lost his status as a trillionaire, at least temporarily. This all comes as fears are growing of a possible AI bubble that could collapse, triggering an economic recession.
- [44:12]
Amy Goodman
We're joined now by Cory Doctorow, claimed tech activist journal science fiction author has worked for the Electronic Frontier foundation for decades. His latest book, the Reverse Centaur's Guide to Life after how to Think About Artificial Intelligence Before It's Too Late. His previous book titled let's see, how should I say it on a broadcast in bleepification. But that's not really the title. Why everything Suddenly Got worse and what to do about it. We want to thank you so much for being with us, Corey, and also I want to congratulate you. You have talked publicly about your diagnosis and also put it in the context of AI. What's good and problematic about it. But congrats on feeling better.
- [44:58]
Cory Doctorow
Thank you very much. Yes. Six days since the radiologist told me that I am cancer free. So let's, let's hope the next time I go in for a scan, they reaffirm that.
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Amy Goodman
And yet you have really shared with people your concerns about AI when it comes to radiology. Talk about how medicine is using it.
- [45:17]
Cory Doctorow
So, you know, in my other life, I'm a science fiction writer, and people sometimes think science fiction is about describing a gadget. And I think what science fiction is really about is exploring who the gadget does things for and who the gadget does things to. And that's where radiology comes in. We've heard some pretty credible stuff about how AI can be used to spot solid mass tumors that sometimes humans miss. And, you know, if there was a sales call right now at your local hospital where there was a pitchman for an AI company telling the hospital administrator, here's what we're going to do. Right now you have 10 radiologists. They cost $3 million a year. They review 100x rays a day each. And I tell you what, I'm going to sell you a chatbot for a million bucks a year, and it's going to sit in the shadows and a couple of times a day it's going to tap your radiologist in the shoulder and say, why don't you take another look at that one? I'd be very happy. That would seem like a real advance on medicine. But that's not how the pitch is going. Now, radiologists have a lot of market power. So I'm not saying that this is where they're going to end up because right now they're in short supply. But what the AI companies want to sell you is fire 9, 10 of your radiologists, save $2.7 million a year, split that between the hospital shareholders and Sam Altman, take that remaining radiologist and put them in charge of marking the AI's homework. Put them in charge of clicking OK, 100 times a minute for the radiology reports that are coming out of the chatbot. And then when it misses something and someone dies, blame that guy. Make him what Dan Davies calls the accountability sink for the AI. And you know, right now, the way that we're using this extremely interesting and impressive technology is to replace humans in jobs where we don't care if those jobs are done well. And it's pretty awful to be living through. I wrote this book because I got so sick of people demanding that I talk with them about AI because it's just not important enough that we should all be paying attention to it. Massive miscalculation. Because now I have to go everywhere
- [47:11]
Matt Sledge
and talk about AI.
- [47:13]
Nermeen Shaikh
If you could comment. The example of radiologists. And radiologists, of course, also play a big role in the early detection or the detection of cancer when it's already there. Now there are a number of leading cancer specialists that increasingly view AI as a vital transformative tool in oncology, principally for augmenting, but absolutely not replacing medical personnel. Scientists, radiologists, doctors, surgeons, et cetera.
- [47:44]
Cory Doctorow
Totally. I mean, look, I think we need to understand the material roots of the bubble to get at what's going on here. The industry spent $1.4 trillion on AI so far. It's doubled in the last year. When I wrote the book a year ago, it was 700 billion. So it's another 700 billion in the last year. Their global revenues, all the money all the companies make per year.
- [48:03]
Matt Sledge
Year.
- [48:04]
Cory Doctorow
They claim it's $60 billion a year. It can't be more than 50 because 10 of that $60 billion is the money that Microsoft gives to OpenAI and OpenAI gives back to Microsoft. That's not revenue. Speaking as someone who writes books about thrillers about accounting fraud, that's not even accounting fraud. It's just a really dumb trick. They've got $50 billion a year. They're spending $1.4 trillion a year. What do they think they're going to do? How are they going to make up the money? It's not like they're going to make it up by adding more customers. Customers. AI has very bad unit economics, which is how economists describe what happens when a business sells another one of its widgets or adds another customer. You know, the early web lost money, but every web user made more money for the web companies. Every time they use the web, the web got more profitable. Every generation of the web is more profitable. AI. Every new AI customer loses more money for the AI businesses. Every new use of AI loses, the more money every new generation loses. So I think we look at the labor story here and what we see is what they ultimately want to do is fire high waged workers and replace them with substandard algorithms and then make us accept substandard products. And that's where they're going to Realize the return on this gigantic investment.
- [49:16]
Amy Goodman
So talk about your title, the Reverse Centaur's Guide to Life after AI. What's the Reverse Centaur?
- [49:23]
Matt Sledge
Yeah.
- [49:24]
Cory Doctorow
Not the first time we've had automation and labor come into conflict. There's a rich little literature studying the way automation and labor work together. One of the things we know is that when labor drives automation, it's usually in service to making the product better. And when capital drives automation, it's usually in service to making more of the product, increasing the throughput. Because they bought an asset, right? And that asset's depreciating off their books. They want to maximize the use of it before it's used up. And so the person who is in charge of using the machine is extorted to use it as quickly as possible, which is where we get centaurs and reverse centaurs. A centaur is a person assisted by a machine. So think of a human head on a horse's body. The horse is tireless. It can run faster than you, it's stronger than you, but you are directing it, right? So you ride a bicycle. You kind of look like a centaur, but you use a spell checker. You're a centaur too. A reverse centaur is the reverse. It is when a human is conscripted to do the task, the machine directs. So an Amazon bus delivery driver, an Amazon warehouse work worker, and reverse centaur. It's a terrible thing to be because you're not just being used by the machine, you're being used up by it. It works faster than you, it can work longer than you. So it is working you to exhaustion at the limit of your capacity. Which is why the most advanced automation we have in warehouses in America and Amazon warehouses results in three times the injuries relative to other warehouses. That's not a coincidence. There's a causal relationship because they're so automated. Automated. They also have more injuries because that automation is being driven by capital, not by labor.
- [50:53]
Nermeen Shaikh
And do you think, I mean, sorry, just to go back to the radiology example, because that's relevant to what you're saying, right? It's possible, as they say, I can scan, you know, x rays, mammograms, etc. Like, I don't know, 100 or a thousand times faster. Anyway, multiples. I shouldn't say the exact number. I don't know. And then a radiologist is to review the findings of AI because I also has the capacity to spot. Very subtle. Not because it sees, but because it has patterns or sees trends. Wouldn't that be an effective use of a reverse centaur model.
- [51:29]
Cory Doctorow
If the worker is in charge of scanning, of deciding how the scanning is done right. The skilled worker who cares about their patients outcomes is in charge of it. I am willing to stipulate, not being a radiologist, I'm willing to stipulate that radiologists know more than I do about how to find tumors. And if they say this is how we think we should use it, not that no worker has ever made a mistake in how they automate their labor, but as a class, I think workers are the best equipped to tell us how they should be using tools. But, and as I said, I've heard from radiologists say right now we have a lot of market power and so when we adopt these tools we get to dictate how it's being done. But the bubble, the investment does not exist to put workers in the driver's seat to augment workers. The reason they've spent $1.4 trillion on $50 billion revenue with terrible unit economics is they think that they can fire workers and corral the remainder into accepting substandard working conditions to produce substandard products.
- [52:25]
Nermeen Shaikh
So I mean just to go back, by way of comparison, in the 2000s there was a massive dot com bubble which people also feared. And indeed as happened, it wiped out when the bubble burst, it wiped out new, numerous, the majority of Internet companies. Nevertheless, these massive corporations now became these huge tech companies from Google to TED to Amazon and Apple. Do you see the possibility of a similar outcome here? In other words, a lot of the AI now there are tens of thousands of platforms, most of them will disappear, but there will be ones that are effective.
- [53:05]
Cory Doctorow
Well, I do think that when the bubble bursts, we're going to have a lot of residue, right? We're going to have like data centers and GPUs at 10 cents on the dollar. We're going to have lots of technicians who know how to use them. We're going to have these open source models that the tech companies have released, but they thought they were just like demos. And it turns out that when you apply lots of research to them to optimize them and improve them, they can do really impressive things. But there are really important differences between the dot com bubble and this one. We talked about the unit economics. We can also talk about the fact that if you look back on the business articles of the day, you know, 1999, 2000, it's full of people saying how will CEOs cope with all these workers who are demanding the web in the workplace today you go and read those same journals, those same business magazines, and they're full of articles saying what are CEOs going to do to convince their workers to use AI? How many workers are they going to have to fire for not using AI enough before workers admit that they want it? So they. So this is just clearly a very different phenomenon to the one that we had back then. As you say, what emerged from it were these giant tech companies. I don't think it's a coincidence that five or six years later we started to have these other bubbles because what happened was those growing tech companies hit a limit to their growth because they acquired a saturation in their market, 90% market share, in the case of Google and Search. And when you stop growing, the market market treats you like a less valuable company. Not for ideological reasons, but because a growing company's income will go up next year if you own a piece of it. It's worth more than a company that stopped growing. If you're running Google and you've hit a 90% market share or Facebook or any of these other tech monopolies, you have to worry that the market is going to revalue your shares and that's going to wipe out the net worth of the individuals who run the company because after all, they're being paid in shares. It's also going to wipe out your, your ability to hire people with shares because they don't want stock in your turkey company, you know, and so that you have to have stories about growth.
- [54:54]
Amy Goodman
So I want to go to the subtitle how to Think about Artificial Intelligence before it's Too late. You advise legislators on legislation. You have, for example, movements all over the country. Earlier this month, for example, voters in Monterey park in California approved a ballot measure that permanently bans the construction of data data centers, new ones, defeating a proposal to build a massive new artificial intelligence site near a residential neighborhood. Talk about the movements of resistance and what you think needs to be done right now.
- [55:28]
Cory Doctorow
Yeah, this is so heartening. It's such a change from I think the way that we tried to do politics or, you know, the progressive movements tried to do politics for so long, which was to vote with our wallets, mistaking shopping for politics. Right. What we see is actually when you mobilize movements, especially at the local level, you can really get stuff done. And you know, I actually got to tip my hat to the right here because Moms for Liberty proved to us that the dumbest people, you know, can make gigantic changes in the material conditions of People on the ground by taking control of these unregarded local offices and involving themselves in these sleepy local political questions like zoning. And so, you know, if those people can do it and make people's lives so terrible, imagine what we can do when we organize political movements instead of just standing in the grocery aisle endlessly dithering about which product is the one that will make the most political difference.
- [56:17]
Nermeen Shaikh
And if you could talk about, you mention in the book the. Which is a seminal event, the Hollywood Writers Strike, which you also participated in in 2023. Why did you see that as so important and, in fact, exemplary?
- [56:29]
Alejandro Velasco
Yeah, well.
- [56:29]
Cory Doctorow
So these are the only people who've really beat back AI in the workplace. And importantly, they didn't do it by demanding more copyright. We've had more copyright added every couple of years for 40 years. The media industry is now more valuable than it's ever been. And the share of income going to us creative workers is lower than it's ever been. Because, you know, when you're bargaining with five studios and four labels and three media music companies and two companies that control all the audio, all the apps, and one company that controls the audio books and e books, it doesn't matter how many rights you have, you're going to bargain them away. It's like giving your bullied kid extra lunch money. You need to intervene organizationally. And what the writers had was not a different copy of copyright. What they had was the right to sectorally bargain, to bargain with all of the employers in the sector all at once. And that's a thing that the Hollywood Guilds have, because when we passed the Taft Hartley act in 1947, they were powerful enough. They got carved out. So, you know, we creative workers, we're at this crossroads. We could demand more copyright. Like, side with our bosses. They're the ones demanding more copyright. Or we could demand sectoral bargaining, a thing every worker in America would support us in. Do we want to support all the workers in America? Do we want to be on the same side as our bosses? I think, you know, even knowing very little about the technicalities of these issues, and I know lots about it. But even if you know very little, you should say broadly, I'm on the side of all the other workers and my boss probably doesn't want what's best for me.
- [57:48]
Amy Goodman
In the last 20 seconds, what's most important to do about AI?
- [57:52]
Cory Doctorow
Get involved in organizations. Join EFF.org, join Tech Worker Solid or Tech Solidarity and Tech Workers Code Coalition. Unionize your workplace. Get involved in local politics, be part of a movement. Systemic problems have systemic solutions. You can't shop your way out of Monopoly any more than you can recycle your way out of a wildfire.
- [58:09]
Amy Goodman
Cory Doctorow, tech journalist, science fiction author, activist. Also ambassador for the Electronic Frontier foundation for decades. His latest book, the Reverse Centaur's Guide to Life After AI how to Think About Artificial Intelligence Before It's Too Late. Happy belated birthday to Karen Renucci. We're hiring an education program manager. Check out democracynow.org and finally, I'll be in Rhode island this weekend in both Providence for the screening of Steal the Story, Please, about Democracy now on Friday and Saturday, then Saturday and Sunday in Newport. Check our website at democracynow. I'll be there with the film's directors, Tia Lesson and Carl Diehl. I'm Amy Goodman with Nermeen Sheikh for another edition of Democracy Now.