Podcast
Democracy Paradox
Hosted by Justin Kempf · EN
Is it possible for a democracy to govern undemocratically? Can the people elect an undemocratic leader? Is it possible for democracy to bring about authoritarianism? And if so, what does this say about democracy? My name is Justin Kempf. Every week I talk to the brightest minds on subjects like international relations, political theory, and history to explore democracy from every conceivable angle. Topics like civil resistance, authoritarian successor parties, and the autocratic middle class challenge our ideas about democracy. Join me as we unravel new topics every week.
25episodes
Episodes
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Kenneth Roberts Says the Left Pays a Steep Price for Breaking with Democracy
5d ago00:46:36Tap to summarizeThe left pays a very steep price when they break with democratic norms and procedures.Kenneth RobertsKenneth Roberts is the Richard J. Schwartz Professor of Government at Cornell University. He is the coauthor (with Santiago Anria) of Polarization and Democracy in Latin America: Legacies of the Left Turn.The Democracy Paradox is made in partnership with the Kellogg Institute of the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame. Read the full transcript here.Key HighlightsIntroduction - 0:20The Origins of the Left Turn - 3:21Polarization and Its Discontents - 13:18The Autocratic Temptation - 21:40Populism and the Left's Democratic Reckoning - 37:24LinksLearn more about Kenneth RobertsRead his book Polarization and Democracy in Latin America: Legacies of the Left TurnLearn more about the Kellogg Institute.Register for the 2026 Global Democracy Conference at the University of Notre Dame.Apes of the State created all MusicEmail comments or questions to jkempf@democracyparadox.comSupport the show
Transcribe →Sheri Berman Says the Democratic Recession Was Not a Surprise
3w ago00:50:51Tap to summarizeIf democracy wants to regain the upper hand, it has to not only do a better job than the other guys, but in fact, a good job.Sheri BermanThis episode features a conversation with political scientist Sheri Berman on why today’s global "democratic recession" was actually predictable. Drawing from her deep historical research, Berman argues that every democratic wave eventually faces an "undertow," especially when the social and economic foundations of stability begin to fail. From the cautionary lessons of Weimar Germany to the modern rise of partisan "bubbles," this episode explores what we have forgotten about democratic stability and what it will take to secure its future. The Democracy Paradox is made in partnership with the Kellogg Institute of the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame. Read the full transcript here.Key HighlightsIntroduction - 0:20What We Forgot About Democracy - 3:39The Social Foundations of Democracy - 13:55Inequality, Insecurity, and Policy - 28:16Universities, Cruise Control, and the Purpose of Democracy - 40:55LinksLearn more about Sheri Berman.Read her article "Democracy's Troubles Should Be No Surprise" in the Journal of Democracy.Learn more about the Kellogg Institute.Register for the 2026 Global Democracy Conference at the University of Notre Dame.Apes of the State created all MusicEmail comments or questions to jkempf@democracyparadox.comSupport the show
Transcribe →Christopher Walker Revisits Sharp Power
Apr 1500:45:09Tap to summarizeSharp power seeks to exploit the openness of free societies because their institutions are open.Christopher WalkerChristopher Walker, a leading expert on authoritarian influence, returns to the origins of the concept of "sharp power," a term he helped develop to distinguish coercive and manipulative forms of influence from Joseph Nye’s idea of soft power. While soft power relies on attraction and persuasion, Walker explains that sharp power instead works by penetrating democratic institutions, restricting debate, and shaping narratives in ways that undermine openness. The conversation situates this concept within a broader shift in global politics, where expectations of democratic expansion after the Cold War have given way to a more contested and authoritarian-influenced world.The Democracy Paradox is made in partnership with the Kellogg Institute of the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame. Read the full transcript here.Key HighlightsIntroduction - 0:20The Origins of Sharp Power - 2:51How Sharp Power Works - 11:29Do Democracies Use Sharp Power? 21:15Sharp Power in the Current Geopolitical Moment - 30:32LinksLearn more about Christopher Walker.Learn more about the Kellogg Institute.Register for the 2026 Global Democracy Conference at the University of Notre Dame.Apes of the State created all MusicEmail comments or questions to jkempf@democracyparadox.comSupport the show
Transcribe →Hugo Drochon Says Elites Are Inevitable
Apr 100:47:59Tap to summarizeI don't think populism is necessarily a challenge to democracy. I think it's part and parcel of it.Hugo DrochonHugo Drochon joins The Democracy Paradox to explore why elites are an unavoidable part of democracy – and why that may not be a bad thing. Drawing on classical elite theory, he explains how democratic systems depend on the constant circulation of competing elites and why outsider movements, including populism, can play a vital role in keeping democracy responsive. The conversation challenges conventional views by reframing democracy as an ongoing, dynamic struggle rather than a fixed set of institutions.Hugo Drochon is an Associate Professor in Political Theory at the University of Nottingham and the author of a new book titled Elites and Democracy. The Democracy Paradox is made in partnership with the Kellogg Institute of the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame. Read the full transcript here.Key HighlightsIntroduction - 0:20Nobody Wants to be an Elite - 3:52Lions, Foxes, and the Circulation of Elites - 15:34Is Populism a Threat to Democracy? - 31:37The Role of Ordinary Citizens - 41:12LinksLearn more about Hugo Drochon.Learn more about his upcoming book Elites and Democracy (Princeton University Press)Learn more about the Kellogg Institute.Register for the 2026 Global Democracy Conference at the University of Notre Dame.Apes of the State created all MusicEmail comments or questions to jkempf@democracyparadox.comSupport the show
Transcribe →Milan Svolik Asks: Do Voters Really Support Democracy?
Mar 1801:01:06Tap to summarizeWe are badly mismeasuring whether and how much people care about democracy.Milan SvolikIn this episode of the Democracy Paradox, host Justin Kempf speaks with political scientist Milan Svolik, the Elizabeth S. & A. Varick Stout Professor of Political Science at Yale University and author of The Politics of Authoritarian Rule. Their conversation explores one of the central puzzles in contemporary democracy: why citizens who say they strongly support democracy sometimes vote for politicians who undermine it. Drawing on Svolik’s experimental research, the discussion examines how traditional survey questions often overestimate democratic commitment and why understanding voters’ real trade-offs offers a more accurate picture.The Democracy Paradox is made in partnership with the Kellogg Institute of the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame. Read the full transcript here.Key HighlightsIntroduction - 0:20Measuring What Voters Really Believe - 3:33Militant Democracy and the Risks of Overcorrection - 16:51The Left, the Right, and Who Defends Democracy - 37:18The Voter as Democracy's Last Gatekeeper - 52:13LinksLearn more about Milan Svolik.Learn more about his book The Politics of Authoritarian Rule (Cambridge University Press)Learn more about the Kellogg Institute.Register for the 2026 Global Democracy Conference at the University of Notre Dame.Apes of the State created all MusicEmail questions or comments to jkempf@democracyparadox.comSupport the show
Transcribe →Minxin Pei Warns China Has Descended into Totalitarianism
Mar 400:53:41Tap to summarizeThe paradox of dictatorship is that dictatorships do well when they do not have a genuine dictator.Minxin PeiIn this episode of Democracy Paradox, Justin Kempf speaks with China scholar Minxin Pei about his book The Broken China Dream: How Reform Revived Totalitarianism and his argument that China under Xi Jinping has shifted from authoritarianism back toward totalitarianism. They explore the missed opportunities for political reform in the 1980s, the party’s post-Tiananmen survival strategy, and how Xi consolidated power through purges, ideological revival, and expanded social control. The conversation also reflects on what China’s trajectory reveals about the strengths – and fragility – of democracy itself.The Democracy Paradox is made in partnership with the Kellogg Institute of the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame. Read the full transcript here.Key HighlightsIntroduction - 0:20China's Missed Opening - 4:22The Return of Control - 21:03The Making of a Strongman 38:16Lessons for Democracy - 50:41LinksLearn more about Minxin Pei.Learn more about his new book The Broken China Dream: How Reform Revived Totalitarianism.Learn more about the Kellogg Institute.Register for the Global Democracy ConferenceApes of the State created all MusicSupport the show
Transcribe →Erica Frantz says Personalist Parties are Democracy's Latest Threat
Feb 1800:51:51Tap to summarizeTraditional programmatic parties serve as a critical guardrail for democracy. Erica FrantzIn this episode, Justin Kempf speaks with Erica Frantz about her book The Origins of Elected Strongmen and the rise of personalist leaders in democracies. Frantz explains how leader-dominated political parties – more than populist rhetoric alone – can erode democratic institutions from within, drawing on cases from El Salvador to France. The conversation explores why voters support such leaders and what this trend means for the future of democracy worldwide.The Democracy Paradox is made in partnership with the Kellogg Institute of the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame. Read the full transcript here.Key HighlightsIntroduction - 0:20Personalism Defined - 2:50Personalism's Appeal - 14:19Threat to Democracy - 19:38Pushing the Boundaries of the Theory - 33:13LinksLearn more about Erica Frantz.Learn more about her coauthored book The Origins of Elected Strongmen: How Personalist Parties Destroy Democracy from Within.Learn more about the Kellogg Institute.Register for the Global Democracy ConferenceApes of the State created all MusicSupport the show
Transcribe →Javier Pérez Sandoval Reveals Democracy’s Hidden Vulnerability: The Hollowing of the State
Feb 400:43:24Tap to summarizeBy dismantling certain capacities today, you're making the democratic choices of tomorrow harder.Javier Pérez SandovalIn this episode, Javier Pérez Sandoval discusses his Journal of Democracy essay, coauthored with Andrés Mejía Acosta, on why populist leaders often “hollow out” the state. Moving beyond familiar debates about executive aggrandizement and democratic backsliding, Pérez Sandoval argues that democracy depends on the state’s capacity to deliver essential public goods – from health and education to security, justice, and credible elections. Drawing on examples from Mexico and Argentina, he explains how both left- and right-wing populists may weaken institutions through austerity, politicization, and institutional restructuring, often prioritizing short-term political gains over long-term democratic resilience. The conversation explores how state erosion can constrain future democratic choices, undermine public trust, and create a vicious cycle that leaves democracy structurally weakened from within.The Democracy Paradox is made in partnership with the Kellogg Institute of the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame. Read the full transcript here.Key HighlightsIntroduction - 0:20Reducing State Capacity - 3:47Core Functions of the State - 12:23Is Reducing State Capacity Antidemocratic? 21:13Does the Public Want to Hollow Out the State? 33:31LinksLearn more about Javier Pérez Sandoval.Read the Journal of Democracy essay “Why Populists Hollow Out Their States.”Learn more about the Kellogg Institute.Apes of the State created all MusicSupport the show
Transcribe →Kate Baldwin Explains Why Christianity Fights for Democracy in Africa
Jan 2100:37:33Tap to summarizeThe group of people who have an interest in defending liberal democracy might be broader than many academics, and maybe even liberals, would have shown.Kate BaldwinThis episode features Yale political scientist Kate Baldwin in a conversation about her book Faith in Democracy, which challenges the assumption that religion is inherently hostile to democratic governance. Drawing on research from sub-Saharan Africa, Baldwin explains how Christian churches have often emerged as defenders of liberal democracy – not because of ideological commitments, but because democratic institutions protect church autonomy and social service work from state overreach. The conversation explores when and why churches mobilize against democratic backsliding, how institutional incentives shape political behavior, and what this reveals about the broader coalition of actors invested in sustaining democracy.The Democracy Paradox is made in partnership with the Kellogg Institute of the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame. Read the full transcript here.Key HighlightsIntroduction - 0:20Why Churches Defend Democracy - 3:20Role of Education - 14:09Why Churches Choose Autocracy - 20:09Leadership - 27:00LinksLearn more about Kate Baldwin.Learn more about her book Faith in Democracy: The Logic of Church Advocacy for Liberal Democratic Institutions in Africa.Check out "Democracy's Devout Defenders" in the Journal of Democracy.Learn more about the Kellogg Institute.Apes of the State created all MusicSupport the show
Transcribe →Natalie Wenzell Letsa Describes the Autocratic Voter
Jan 700:50:15Tap to summarizeYou can take a cognitive bias so far down the road that you can live in an objectively very clear dictatorship and sit there and say, 'I live in a democracy.'Natalie Wenzell LetsaIn this episode of The Democracy Paradox, host Justin Kempf speaks with political scientist Natalie Wenzell Letsa about why some voters genuinely support ruling parties in electoral autocracies. Drawing on her book The Autocratic Voter and fieldwork in Cameroon, Letsa explains how partisan identities form under dictatorship and what these dynamics reveal about democracy, polarization, and political behavior more broadly.The Democracy Paradox is made in partnership with the Kellogg Institute of the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame. Read the full transcript here.Key HighlightsIntroduction - 0:20What is an Electoral Autocracy - 3:20Voters in an Autocracy - 12:55Opposition in an Autocracy - 21:04Parallels to Democracies - 30:31LinksLearn more about Natalie Wenzell Letsa.Learn more about her book The Autocratic Voter: Partisanship and Political Socialization Under Dictatorship.Learn more about the Kellogg Institute.Apes of the State created all MusicSupport the show
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