Design Better — Ben Swire: Author of "Safe Danger" on the Hidden Reason Team Building Efforts Fail

Podcast: Design Better
Hosts: Eli Woolery, Aarron Walter (The Curiosity Department)
Guest: Ben Swire
Episode Date: November 5, 2025

Overview: The Safe Danger Concept

This episode explores the core idea behind Ben Swire's book Safe Danger: building team cultures rooted in psychological safety, trust, and productive risk-taking. Through vivid contrasts, practical exercises, and personal anecdotes, Swire shares why most team building falls short, how “safe danger” can bridge the gap between comfort and growth, and why embracing vulnerability, authentic connection, and honest risk is essential for creativity, innovation, and team resilience—especially in a rapidly changing tech environment.

Key Themes and Insights

1. From Comfort to Real Safety: Why Most Team Building Fails

• Definition of Safe Danger: Swire’s central concept is the "sweet spot where people feel safe enough to leave safety behind, but challenged enough to grow." (00:50)
• Comfort vs. Safety: Companies often confuse comfort for safety, prioritizing perks and harmony over real psychological safety that enables truth-telling, innovation, and productive conflict.

  “Leaders often assume that if people look happy… then the culture is safe. But comfort is not the same as safety. Real safety is when people can speak the truth.” — Ben Swire (11:31)

• The Pitfall of Nice Cultures: Swire shares an example of a company with free meals and meditation pods where employees stayed silent about a doomed product launch—valuing comfort but stifling candor and innovation. (12:15)

2. Contrasts: IDEO vs. Traditional Corporate Environments

• Freedom to Ask for Help: At IDEO, asking for help signals commitment to the project and respect for colleagues’ input. In contrast, corporate environments often see asking for help as a weakness.

  “Asking for help…was the highest form of respect… It was just a complete inversion of the way that basically the beginning of my career had been set.” — Ben Swire (08:04)

• Trust in Individuality: While at Morgan Stanley, Swire’s work was micromanaged by “60 pairs of eyes.” IDEO trusted him to represent its brand through his authentic voice:

  “Your voice is IDEO’s voice. That’s why we hired you.” — IDEO Project Lead, quoted by Ben Swire (09:22)

• Bringing Your Full Self: IDEO encouraged standing out, not blending in—creating an environment where diverse perspectives flourished. (10:22)

3. Why Teams Need “Safe Danger” — Practicing Productive Risk

• Risk on a Spectrum: Swire advocates for structured, non-threatening risk-taking as emotional “muscle building.”
• Example Activity: Sharing stories about personal inspirations using Eames cards—opening up to values and vulnerabilities safely.

  “That’s the kind of risk that brings out stories… they’re stepping outside their comfort zone, but not in danger of anything.” — Ben Swire (14:25)

• Importance of Practicing Risk: Controlled experiences prepare teams to handle real-world uncertainty and ambiguity. (16:12)

4. Trust and Vulnerability: The Foundations of Creative Teams

• Project Aristotle Reference: Swire and the hosts discuss Google’s finding that psychological safety is the #1 predictor of high-performing teams. (16:29)

  “If your value depends on flawless output, then everyone’s going to hide their messier truths. But it’s those truths people need to share to really collaborate and innovate.” — Ben Swire (17:08)

• Rewarding Progress, Not Perfection: Build trust by rewarding risk-taking, assisting others, and learning from failure—not just success.

  “It’s not all hinging on success, it’s hinging on progress. If this one didn’t work, the next one will.” — Ben Swire (18:10)

• Vulnerability in Practice: Effective team rituals—sprints, retrospectives—go beyond sharing best ideas (“potluck” style) to co-creation and airing personal “dents and scratches.” (18:58)

  “The crack is how the light gets in.” — Rumi, quoted by Ben Swire (20:45)

• Conference Activity Example: The team created a forum for anonymous, honest expression at a city planning conference—yielding more poetic, meaningful conversations. (22:12)

5. Calibrating Risk and Vulnerability in Leadership

• Avoiding Oversharing: Leaders must demonstrate openness without undermining credibility—by inviting dissent, sharing small personal missteps, and normalizing learning from mistakes.

  “It’s not necessarily about big confessions… but… creating daily signals where you invite dissent.” — Ben Swire (27:24)

• Example: A VP openly shared small weekly mistakes in meetings, cultivating trust and bolder problem-solving over time. (28:04)

6. Relevance in a Changing Tech Landscape

• AI and Human Differentiation: As AI automates routine work, Swire believes the uniquely human—personal history, “dents,” and creative divergence—become increasingly valuable.

  “AI is really great at converging on best practices. What it’s not great at is diverging based on hunches and looking for surprise… That’s something AI can’t fake.” — Ben Swire (29:54)

• Broader Impact: The book is meant not just for team building but for personal growth and career reinvention, emphasizing authenticity and unique value. (31:00)

7. Respectful Dissent: How to Push Back on Leadership

• Curiosity Over Confrontation: Push back by asking open questions and seeking understanding, not by direct opposition.

  “Curiosity is the most powerful way of pushing back while being respectful… You can both find a way to disagree.” — Ben Swire (32:15)

8. The Power of Play and Experiential Design

• Bringing Ideas to Life: Swire collaborated with New Yorker cartoonist Juan Estacio to infuse Safe Danger with experience-based, intuitive learning via humor and comics.

  “What we were hoping [with cartoons]… was to make it more of an experiential way of absorbing key points… It does open up the possibility for new ways of thinking.” — Ben Swire (33:58)

• Activity Example — Homegrown Heroes:
  • Team members share personal “emotional superpowers” rooted in their life stories.
  • These are transformed into comic book powers, then blended into team superheroes using craft materials—celebrating diversity and vulnerability playfully and safely.

  • “By the end, the team has built a great catalog of all the unique human qualities in the room—not just the resumes.” — Ben Swire (42:29)

• Why Play Matters: Play acts like “oven mitts,” letting teams safely handle “dangerous material” (43:29)

9. The Seven Qualities That Drive Team Connection and Innovation

• Overview: The book pairs sought-after outcomes with counterintuitive drivers:
  • Productivity ← Joy
  • Innovation ← Curiosity (and humility)
  • Vulnerability
  • Connection (meaningful, personal)
  • Optimism (“resilient” realism)
  • Trust
  • Creativity (lateral, adaptable thinking)

  “The kind of optimism that I saw really build resilience… is the type… that recognizes just because you’re in a dark tunnel doesn’t mean you’re never going to get out.” — Ben Swire (37:38)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Team Building’s True Purpose (00:01):
  “You make it okay to take a risk and not succeed, but to learn something from it that's going to make the next project better.”

• On Psychological Safety vs. Comfort (11:31):
  “Comfort is not the same as safety. Real safety is when people can speak the truth… Creativity and innovation comes from friction…”

• On Bringing Your Full Self (09:22):
  “Your voice is IDEO's voice. That's why we hired you.”

• On the Value of Vulnerability (20:45):
  “The crack is how the light gets in.” — Rumi

• On AI & Human Creativity (29:54):
  “What AI's not great at is diverging based on hunches and looking for surprise... The next Beatles album wouldn't be Sgt. Pepper's.”

• On Finding Your Line with Vulnerability (27:24):
  “It's not necessarily about big confessions...but creating daily signals where you invite dissent.”

• On Personal Superpowers Activity (42:29):
  “By the end, the team has built this great catalog of all the unique human qualities in the room—not just the resumes…”

• On Play & Risk (43:29):
  “Play and creativity is sort of like oven mitts with my teams. It’s a way of handling dangerous material so you can really get somewhere with it.”

Segment Timestamps

• 00:01 – Setting the tone: Why progress > success in team cultures
• 03:33 – Swire’s professional background, financial marketing to IDEO
• 05:02 – Culture as a design problem; IDEO’s trust-based system
• 08:04 – Contrasts in asking for help: IDEO vs. Morgan Stanley
• 11:31 – Comfort vs. safety; consequences of “nice” cultures
• 14:25 – Safe danger, risk-taking rituals, and experiential design
• 16:29 – Project Aristotle and psychological safety in teams
• 18:10 – Rewarding learning, not just results
• 18:58 – Vulnerability in design rituals + conference activity example
• 24:59 – Analogy: Controlled danger in hobbies and work risk
• 27:24 – Calibrating leadership vulnerability
• 29:54 – Why human quirks and creativity defeat AI
• 32:15 – Productive pushback: Curiosity over confrontation
• 33:58 – Cartoon collaboration; making learning experiential
• 36:03 – The seven qualities behind team connection and innovation
• 39:57 – “Homegrown Heroes” team-building activity
• 43:29 – The underestimated value of real personal connection at work
• 45:38 – Inspirations: “Lost,” transitions, and raising curious kids

Additional Resources

• Book: Safe Danger by Ben Swire
• Activities and visuals: makebelieveworks.com
• Ben Swire personal: benjaminswire.com

Conclusion

Ben Swire makes a compelling case that the best teams don’t play it safe—at least, not in the way most organizations define safety. The real risk for design and innovation isn’t failing a project; it’s failing to build a culture where discomfort, difference, and vulnerability are embraced and practiced. Safe Danger is both a mindset and a toolkit for leaders, teams, and individuals who want to unlock authentic collaboration—and rediscover their own creative edge in a world of relentless change.