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Design Better
Live at Savannah College of Art and Design, with Kate Aronowitz, Steve Johnson, Kat Holmes and Jaime Lopez
01:06:24
Join us for a special live episode from SCAD with design leaders Kate Aronowitz, Steve Johnson, Kat Holmes and Jaime Lopez
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- [00:02]
Aaron Walter
When I was a college student studying painting and drawing, I had absolute certainty of the career path that I would follow. Here's how it was going to go. I was going to move to New York, make it big as a painter, and never look back. How about you, Eli?
- [00:19]
Eli Woolery
Well, for me, as an undergrad in product design, I wasn't sure what a career in my field even looked like. Skillset wasn't clearly defined industry. The outdoor product companies that I talked to wanted me to conform to this neat little box. Are you an industrial designer? Are you a mechanical engineer? I wasn't sure how I fit in.
- [00:39]
Aaron Walter
And so did our careers end up unfolding the way we expected? Absolutely not. Life and careers, they rarely go according to plan. There's so much that's out of our control. But despite the unexpected twists, there are a few lessons that can guide us in the right direction. And that's what we're here to talk about tonight for a special live episode of Design Better, recorded right here at the Savannah College of Art and Design.
- [01:08]
Eli Woolery
Carrie, you already did these awesome intros, but we're going to do some short ones, so bear with us for a second. Today we will be speaking with four design leaders who took a winding path but all found their way to significant work. Kate Aronowitz, portfolio operations lead at gv, who was formerly a design leader at companies like wealthfront, meta, and LinkedIn Steve Johnson, VP of Design at Netflix, who also led design teams at LinkedIn and Adobe.
- [01:33]
Aaron Walter
And Jamie Lopez, chief design and Marketing Officer at Flatiron Health, formerly creative director at Opower and Kat Holmes, chief design officer and Executive Vice President at Salesforce and former design leader at Google and Microsoft.
- [01:50]
Eli Woolery
This is Design Better, where we explore creativity at the intersection of design and technology. I'm Eli Woolery.
- [01:55]
Aaron Walter
And I'm Aaron Walter. And welcome one and all to our live episode.
- [02:04]
Carrie
We'll return to the conversation after this quick break. Design Better is supported by Masterclass. It's usually around the holidays, as the year draws to an end, that I start to really reflect on my goals and how I want to grow in the coming year. I've often turned to Masterclass to help me expand my knowledge and satiate my seemingly unending curiosities about disciplines that I've yet to explore. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 of the world's best thinkers. I'm talking about people like Steph Curry, Paul Krugman, Malcolm Gladwell, Diane von Furstenberg, Margaret Atwood, Levar Burton, and so Many more inspiring thinkers who share their wisdom in a format that's easy to follow and can be streamed anywhere. On a smartphone, on your computer, your smart tv, even in audio mode. Former Design Better guest David Sedaris teaches a class on storytelling and humor. And I loved Bob Iger's class on business strategy and Anna Wintour's class on creativity and leadership. Oh, and Sarah Blakely, she's the founder of Spanx, has an amazing class on entrepreneurship that taught me so much. I've been through so many classes and I just learned so much each time. The wirecutter calls Masterclass an invaluable gift and I can attest to the truth of that claim. I gave my wife a Masterclass subscription last year for her birthday and she got so much value from it all year long. With Masterclass, your loved ones can learn from the best to become their best. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. You should definitely head over to MasterClass.com Design Better for their current offer. That's MasterClass.com Design Better. I'm so excited for you to try it. MasterClass.com Design Better want to shop Walmart.
- [04:04]
Jamie Lopez
Black Friday deals first. Walmart plus members get early access to our hottest deals. Join now and get 50% off a one year annual membership shop Black Friday deals first with Walmart plus see terms@walmartplus.com.
- [04:22]
Aaron Walter
And now back to the show. Kate, we're going to start with you because these introductions, they're so intimidating. I don't know about y'all, how you feel about it, but for me, I feel like these are some folks that have a lot of things figured out and I want to know what they don't have figured out. Kate, we'll start with you as a scad grad. What did you get wrong about your career conceptions?
- [04:50]
Kate Aronowitz
Oh, wow. Okay, first of all, really excited to be here back at scad. Love it here so much. What did I get wrong? You know, coming from family and you go into school, your path is kind of chartered for you. It's very clear. I'm going to go elementary school, middle school, high school, go to college. I'm going to go get a job. Everything seemed pretty well charted for me. And then you kind of get out there and you realize, I think I thought someone was going to chart the path after school for me. I had my parents around me who cared for me. I had professors here who cared for me. I had my first boss who was a wonderful person, but I quickly realized it was up to me to kind of architect my own path. I'll never forget the first time at my first job that something didn't go well, and I thought, oh, my boss must not like me. I realized, no, this is business. You have to chart your own path. So I think there's something good about recognizing, unfortunately, that no one is going to take care of your path for you, but that's also very empowering. You're going to graduate, you're going to choose your first job, get connected with yourself, really know why you're choosing that job, and then chart the path forward. Because I think it's really good to realize that careers are wonderful. You're going to work for some wonderful people out there, but it's a business at the end of the day, and you have to take care of yourself first. And it took me a little while to figure that one out.
- [06:15]
Aaron Walter
Jamie, how about you? What did you get wrong about your conceptions of what your career was going to be?
- [06:20]
Jamie Lopez
Well, it's great to see all of you. Thank you so much for having us here. I was the first person in my family to go to college, and so I came to school a little bit late, and I definitely thought that everyone else had it totally figured out. Everyone else knew exactly what they were going to do. And I realized in design school very quickly that I was there to learn about what the opportunities were. And when I saw those opportunities, like, it was my job to go grab them. I had a lot of misconceptions about what creative careers were, what design. I didn't know what a design career was, really, truly. And so as I started to see examples of what that looked like or get opportunities, I was, like, kicking down doors. I was, like, saying yes and taking every chance I could because I was like, this is the place where you learn about all of this. And I think, like all of you who are students in this place, you're in a really, like, abundant environment where you can be taking so many risks and so many opportunities. And so I didn't realize, truly, the depth of the learning experience.
- [07:21]
Aaron Walter
Pass it down to you, Kat.
- [07:23]
Kat Holmes
Wrong.
- [07:24]
Steve Johnson
What did I get wrong? I got so many things, you know, not perfect at all. My family wasn't able to afford to send me to college, and so the scholarship that I'd earned was for engineering. And I'm like, I guess I'll go be an engineer. And in that process, I think once I kind of transitioned into the workplace, I was missing a connection to people. I was missing a Connection to a purpose. And although I felt really empowered for having completed something very challenging, as all of you are, I'm sure on the edge of graduating into the workplace, finding that purpose was something that I could not anticipate until I was out in the world and interacting with. And so it was really finding people who I connected with the purpose that they were pursuing, something that I found interesting. And as I found many different potential paths through many different people, I started to find my own path. And I think letting go of the expectation that I put on myself as the reason to go out into the workplace, but really to yield a little bit to whoever might walk into my path or whoever's path I might cross, that became the guide for how I found a way through my career, much more so than anything I had studied or said I wanted to do.
- [08:38]
Aaron Walter
I love that my wife calls that putting yourself in harm's way.
- [08:43]
Kat Holmes
So I, like Jamie, was the very first person in my family to ever go to college. So it's not what I got wrong. I'm actually shocked to be sitting up here and, you know, having this conversation with all of you. But I think that the biggest thing that I learned, though, was, you know, cutting corners always catches up, always. And I think that there was, like, a lot of things that, especially when I was coming up, I'm like, oh, no, I don't have to do that. That just must be for everybody else, or that's probably just there for show. Let me just try to go around that. But in a lot of cases, that was not learning the fundamentals, not understanding the foundations, not understanding how to do those exercises. And then one day you find yourself to where you have to make a decision, and you don't have that expertise and thought process to be able to fall back on feeling confident about that decision, know how good or bad it is. So that was one that was just always really hard, is like, put in the work, put in the process. You're not going to be successful your first time out. Failure is not an F word. Failure is an opportunity to learn across everything, and you're going to fall more than not. And then that's what's going to help you learn how to stand up.
- [09:44]
Eli Woolery
So when you're about to enter the real world, so we call it out here, and this is something my students face a lot and ask us about as faculty. Should I work at a startup or should I work at Google? Where do I fit into this ecosystem of companies at different scale? Maybe each of you kind of popcorn style could Talk about your thoughts on. If I'm just entering a new role as a new designer, how do I know where I fit in?
- [10:08]
Steve Johnson
I don't know. Everybody finds this to be true. But I find a lot of folks who come to design because they don't feel like they fit in. Right. I think we bridge many worlds, and part of what that strength brings is the world doesn't always think in bridged ways. It doesn't always think in blended ways. So, you know, thinking about, you know, a brand or a company I found over time was less useful in terms of, you know, I want to be with that brand or I want to work for that place because I love the products. It became more about the people that I met, and a lot of it was, you know, going to design conferences. My very first design job I got by going to an IDSA conference and somebody noticed the watch I was wearing and they had designed it and we got a chance for an interview at Microsoft. The way I got a role at Google is Catherine Courage, who may be here. Maybe she was an amazing design leader who I admired, and we connected and found a role over time. And so thinking about, I'm going to be a bit of an outsider everywhere I go, I guess, and embracing that as being a change agent inside these companies because none of them got it figured out either.
- [11:12]
Jamie Lopez
Right.
- [11:12]
Steve Johnson
None of them have a perfect place.
- [11:14]
Kate Aronowitz
Just to build on that. I think it's about the people. I think, especially for your first role, I'm still learning, but you really will be learning a lot, and you want to work for someone that takes that really seriously. My first job, I was doing the back of vitamin supplements bottles. Not sexy work, not cool. But I worked for a guy named Kevin, I'll never forget his name, who would put my work on the wall as unimportant as it was. And he pointed out the flaws and he guided me. And I learned more from Kevin designing the back of vitamin supplements bottles than I would have for going to work and being the only designer at a startup. Right. Which sounds a lot sexier. I'm pretty hardcore in thinking that. I don't think your first design job out of school should be a place where you're the only designer. Surround yourself with other people who have done this, draft off of them. Be around people who are really excited to show you how to learn and will be happy to take you under your wing.
- [12:05]
Jamie Lopez
Yeah, I mean, I think the thing I've learned over the years about this is, like, just kind of know what you're chasing and be very like, honest with yourself about what you're chasing. Because at the end of the day, like, it feels really good to get that yes to that opportunity. But it's a long term thing. And all of these other things like learning on the job and all of this other stuff that you're not expecting probably isn't the thing you were chasing it for necessarily. And so to the extent that you can really try and figure out what stuff really lights you up and what really guides you and days get long and work gets really hard. So what's the stuff that's really going to keep you really going through all that?
- [12:42]
Kat Holmes
A small secret for all of you is relationships matter. So the person sitting next to you might hire you one day. And I absolutely mean that. Because right now, Kate hired Sarah. Sarah, where are you? Sarah hired me, I hired Amy, and then Amy hired Joanne. You've got five vice presidents of LinkedIn sitting right here because we all hired each other. And it's that level. I know, it's crazy, right? And it's not about popularity contests or any of that. It's just be sure as you're developing your work that you don't feel super competitive with the person next to you. You definitely want to get really good grades, but just keep an eye out for like, who those people are. Because when one of you gets your first gig, someone like us is going to say to you, hey, so we need more people. Do you know someone? And you want to think about that person that was up late crushing it with you, making sure that that happened, that has super high quality bar that you can trust. Forget all the stuff that you saw them do. It's okay. That was in the past. But like, what they can do now, you know, that kind of thing really, really, really helps. And I think that it's those relationships that are so much more important than you'll ever know just to build off of that.
- [13:49]
Aaron Walter
I'm curious, show of hands, did you get your first job from a cold knock on a door?
- [13:55]
Sejun
Okay.
- [13:56]
Aaron Walter
A couple people.
- [13:57]
Jamie Lopez
Yeah.
- [13:57]
Kat Holmes
Yeah.
- [13:58]
Aaron Walter
All right, tell us about your cold knock on the door, Jamie.
- [14:01]
Jamie Lopez
It was one of my first design, design jobs. And it was a design studio that I really admired. They're called Design Army. They were really tough. They had a creative director that was just sort of known for really being one of those intense creative directors that got great creative work out of you. I didn't live in the same city. It was across the country. I studied up on the studio. They sent you when you applied. It was Pretty ridiculous. Like a long list of questions that were really design nerdy and you had to answer them, which is probably a red flag. But I made this whole really cringey Flash website that you don't even know what that means and really, really went for it because it was a cold intro and I was like, I want that job. I want to go in there and be in this hyper creative environment. And it worked. And they called me and I moved across the country and I didn't know anyone and I didn't know anything about how to operate in that zone.
- [14:59]
Eli Woolery
And yeah, maybe we could talk a little bit about the pros and cons. So let's assume we have the starting thesis that you don't necessarily want to be the first designer or the only designer at a company if you want those headwinds in front of you. But what if you have a choice between working at a really small company and maybe wearing many hats and a larger company where you're going to be more constrained and yeah, talk a little bit about the advantages and disadvantages of those situations.
- [15:27]
Kat Holmes
I think small, not large. I feel that you have a much greater opportunity to fail fast and learn things and not be super accountable. If you're at a much smaller company, you can wear multiple hats. In a larger company, there's so much more on the line and I don't know if they're going to trust you outright. And if they don't, then what's going to happen is they're going to bury you someplace to where it's going to take you a very long time to get that trajectory. I will not call her out, but I will awkwardly make eye contact. I was having this conversation with a student earlier who I said, what's your goal? She's like, to work at Apple. I went, okay, tell me why. And then she kind of fumbled about. And then I said, do you really want to work there? She's like, no, but I just always tell people like you that. I said, so what do you really want to do? She's like, I want to work someplace small and learn. I said, great, that's the right thing to do because ultimately that's where you can just really exercise, exercise, exercise and try your best and try really weird, obscure things. Learn from that. Then when you go to that medium sized company, you can bring that level of confidence with you. Then when you develop at that medium sized company, if you do want to go to a huge company like Apple, Google, meta, et cetera, you have the experience to fall back on and again, I won't say her name, but I'll just.
- [16:42]
Steve Johnson
I will respectfully disagree and do the insight same.
- [16:45]
Jamie Lopez
I'm ready.
- [16:47]
Steve Johnson
Let's get spicy. No, I. I loved starting at a large company. I started at Microsoft. It was my first design job. Not my first job, but my first design job. And because there were so many different types of projects happening. So in the course of. I ended up being there about nine years. But I worked on hardcore Windows operating system design that's so alluring to designers. But I also worked on HoloLens in the very early days, I worked on Xbox. I worked on biometric watches and consumer products. So there's also a candy store kind of effect of a large company sometimes. But land in a place where you feel supported by a small team. That's what I would say.
- [17:27]
Kate Aronowitz
Yeah. And to build on that, I'll also disagree with Steve a bit. Oops. Jamie G. I think if you're on a larger team that embraces where you are. So at Facebook for a while, we intentionally hired four or five new grads, and we knew what we were going to leverage them for. We were like, teach us how to critique. You're going to run critique every week. We put them on design systems because I told them, you're not ready to design a product on your own. Nobody should be asking you to do that. You're going to polish and refine our system. For a while, it didn't sound sexy, but they learned a lot. So I think there's also something to be said for putting in that work at the ground level that might not sound all that interesting, but learning the refinement and the details and learning why decisions are being made and being surrounded by people that are kind of embracing where you are, I think there's a plus to that.
- [18:15]
Jamie Lopez
So I've spent a lot of time in, like, startup culture and in those spaces, you are one or two designers on a team and you're often. I've worked for chief Product officers, chief people officers, Chief Technology Officers, CEOs, Chief Marketing Officers. I've never worked for a chief Design officer. I am a Chief Design Officer now. And I think it's really interesting to come up through those environments. And what's been super critical for me are people like Kate, you know, who for years now, I've been able to reach out to you. I've never worked with you, but you could be my, like, mentor, which I know is a tricky word. And you didn't know that you were necessarily my friend, my teammate, but really? That designer that is going to speak my language and I can ask questions to and, like, so I think you're probably gonna end up in a bunch of diverse environments that we can tell you all the places you should or shouldn't go, but you're gonna end up in places that you'd never expect. And when you do, don't hesitate to call the people that are gonna answer the phone or answer your email and help you navigate all of these different situations. Cause, like, that's what I've found to be, like, incredibly critical and important through my career.
- [19:29]
Eli Woolery
Before you ask your next question, I just wanna both agree with Steve, but then also give Kat ammunition for her argument. Because I worked at a lot of small startups and I learned so much wearing all these different hats. That was fantastic. But then when I wanted to eventually get to a bigger company, in that case, it wasn't a huge company. It was envisioned. I didn't have anything on my resume that anybody recognized. I'm sure Aaron was looking at it. He's like, hippo education. What the. I've never heard of this before. So there's definitely advantages to getting that brand recognition eventually on your resume.
- [19:58]
Aaron Walter
Yeah, it's helpful. I want to talk a little bit about soft skills, because so often, you know, we graduate from school and we've got lots of things in our portfolio, specific craft skills and so forth, but so much of our careers are dominated by skills that we just don't get exposure to. What are those most critical things that got you to where you are that you maybe had to learn in the school of hard knocks in a meeting where you got corrected, or maybe you've corrected someone else and helped other designers move up. What are those skills that are so essential?
- [20:34]
Steve Johnson
I heard the term here, power skills versus soft skills, which I kind of like and wanted to experiment with that a little bit. The one that came immediately to mind for me is it's good to receive feedback. It's good to be open to that feedback, but also always checking in and seeing whether or not what it is that I want to do matches up with the environment that I'm in, because it changes over time. And I will say that I've stayed in places longer than I probably should have because I was hoping to become a manager per se. I had a manager tell me, well, to do that, you have to go get an mba. So I started the MBA program and I stopped in the middle of it and I dropped out in part because it was a conversation that somebody was having about Me, as opposed to a matchup to what it is that I wanted to do in the world. And it's easy if I stay too long in a place to start to believe those conversations, to say, oh, maybe I don't have what it takes to be a manager, or maybe I can only lead teams that are no bigger than 10 people. But the moment you up and kind of move to another environment, the context is different, the expectations are different, and then how I understand myself can be different. So I'd call that like a power skill in the sense that feedback should always be a part of the process. And it's not about the feedback telling you who to be. Right. It's about being in an environment where you feel called forward in the things that you know you can do even if they weren't provided the opportunity to demonstrate it in an environment where you were before.
- [22:03]
Kate Aronowitz
I think something that served me well, and I actually, I've got a son in college right now. That's something I saw serve him very well this summer. That sounds obvious, but I don't think a lot of people do is just simple preparation. If you're going to a meeting, know who's going to be in the room. Show up on time, show up early, read the agenda ahead of time, think of a few things that you want to say. If someone asks you to take care of a list of things, take care of the list and then cross it off the list. I was told earlier in my career, they were like, oh, wow, you showed up on time. And you'd come in and you'd read my documents ahead of time. And frankly, I get very frustrated when people will just reach out and say, hey, can I get a bit of your time? I would love your advice. I'd say, sure, here is some time. And I said, what do you want to talk about? And they're like, well, what's going on? It's like, no, no, no, that's not good. So I think especially where you are just learning to be prepared, having attention to detail, and being accountable sounds really simple. In the workplace, things can get busy, and it really does help you stand out. I think we all know people on our team who are that way, and I feel like I've been given open doors because of it.
- [23:07]
Jamie Lopez
Today we met with a few students, and one of the things that really stuck out to me is that someone said, I'm learning to be a great collaborator. And like, that totally blew my mind because to me, that's one of the most powerful skills, like, be great to work with, be awesome to work with. Know what you're bringing to a project, know what you're bringing to a workplace, and be wonderful to work with. You know, we're spending a lot of our lives in that space. Like, that's probably like one of the softest of all the skills and one of the most important things. But yeah, like, learn to be a great collaborator. It'll pay off. It'll help you jump from so many different diverse environments and bring one of the most powerful things you can.
- [23:47]
Kat Holmes
So try to tell a great story. So, like all of you right now, get an idea in your head of what your favorite product or service is. Okay. Do you guys all have it? I'm waiting for some nods. Yeah. Okay. One person didn't make that. It was an army of people. It was a team. Like, one person may get to take credit for it, but there really is a lot of people behind that, which means that you, A, have to make sure that you're a part of a team. And you have to understand that you are not there to be a superstar. You're there to make sure that the team is successful. And then B, you want to know the story behind what you're making and why, who it's for, how it's going to change their life and be able to tell that story. No matter what that thing is. It could be a movie, a song, a product, a service, it could be a food, fashion, whatever. No matter what it is that you're creating, you should be able to tell the story of who your user is. And you should also understand you should be able to be super empathetic to what their needs are and what else they use adjacent to whatever that thing is.
- [24:45]
Aaron Walter
Just want to add to something that Jamie said. I thought that was great about being a great collaborator because it is a skill that can be developed. And one thing about art school is having gone through it myself, is it's an exercise in building one's ego, which is really, really important until it's not. Until it's a hindrance. And once you get out of art school, design school, your ego can actually be a real hindrance. It took me a while to kind of let go of that, to be able to collaborate and let other people in so you can tell that story and be part of a bigger organization. Because unless you're going out on your own as an entrepreneur, you're going to work with other people. And if you can't work with other people, it's a non starter.
- [25:32]
Jamie Lopez
Yeah, I know. A Lot of really talented jerks, or I did know that, and then like, no one wanted to work with them anymore. And like, your career gets real short. A lot of what happens in this business is like, you make the call to the person that you really love working with. So don't be a talented jerk.
- [25:49]
Eli Woolery
Speaking of talented jerks, let's talk about AI real quick.
- [25:52]
Jamie Lopez
So the most talented jerk.
- [25:56]
Eli Woolery
We're entering this new era and we're on the subject of skills. And I think a lot of us are playing with these tools, these generative AI tools, are realizing that, okay, this is the scary factor, but there's also this pretty amazing opportunity to extend our skills into different domains. So if we're a designer, we can mess around as being an engineer, we can experiment, we can play in these other areas and eventually develop skills. I think those of us who have an eye on it, a lot of us feel that these roles are going to blur, these boundaries are going to blur. And so how do we, as students or early in our career kind of position ourselves well, so that as these tools get even better, we understand how to leverage them the right way.
- [26:40]
Steve Johnson
First and foremost, I think it's important to remember everybody's learning it, right? So I often will say, man, I don't know enough, I need to do more. But everybody's learning it. From the most senior leaders in a company to my 12 year old, everybody's experimenting and my 12 year old's probably learning more, faster than the most senior executives that I interact with. Because it is about experimentation, it's about understanding how to play with these new. I think of it as a material almost. It's a new kind of digital material to play with and to balance that with the ethical responsibility and the impact that we as designers are trained to think about, to think about the downstream, upstream implications of that. So part of it is about, I think, teaming up back to like, who are the people that you're with? You know, we are adoring of our design siblings, but also really connecting with our engineering friends and family, our creative technologists. That's an emerging discipline that certainly wasn't there when I was in school. But folks who are bridging those worlds, and then it's only through play, I think that we're all going to learn these skills. And so that's what I'm doing. I'm setting aside time, time with my team, time with my family, and we're getting to know what these technologies can and can't do, in part so that we don't just believe what we're told about. Whether it's the fear or the endless possibilities, you got to find your own truth inside of it. And it only comes by knowing the nature of that material, by getting your hands into it.
- [28:11]
Kat Holmes
I think that every new technology freaks everybody out. They go, oh, no, it's going to be the end of days. And then, like, you start to, like, master it, and you get human in the middle. And then you realize that it's the way of which all of us utilize that technology to create new, unique things. AI tools, as I've seen them have definitely been things that I think and a lot of people have been somewhat concerned about. But then you start to play with it, and you start to kind of see the generic output of it, and you recognize it really fast, and it feels kind of sterile. It becomes like the fast food of everything. And you're like, oh, I guess I could eat this, but it tastes kind of bland. What are the things that I can add to it that makes it more exciting? All of that's the personalities of which all of us apply to it. So you can give two people the same AI tools with the same set of instructions, and they'll have two different results. And that alone means it's a whole new set of things, I think, that we can all play with. So I wouldn't fear it. I would embrace it. The longer you stay away from it, the harder it's going to be. Just play with them and see what you can create. But play with them, in my opinion, with groups of people, and then see all the different responses that you get. And that's when you start to realize it's your unique set of questions in the way of which you apply it that actually creates these things. And that'll be the differentiator between, like, what some people like and others don't.
- [29:26]
Kate Aronowitz
Yeah, I love it. Steve, you're conscious of it. You kept saying AI tool. It is a tool. It is a tool. It is not a substitute for thinking. It's not a substitute for understanding the craft behind it. If you're using it visually, you better have really good taste. You better be a really good curator. It is not a shortcut. It's a tool. I think that's the most important thing to remember. It's not a shortcut.
- [29:48]
Jamie Lopez
Yeah, I think I didn't realize. I get on the stage, I feel, like, very old, very fast. I'm doing a lot of, like, back in my day, there are a lot of things I did in early parts of my career that none of you have done as part of your design process. Like there are labor intensive, cumbersome Photoshop activities that took me hours that none of you have ever done because a computer did it for you and you're still sitting here and you are going to have jobs and you are going to contribute creative things to our space and all that stuff that fell away you don't even know about. And like, I'm a little bit of like a techno optimist around this. I feel like there is like space and space and space for creative people to be doing creative things. And like, I don't want our field to be bossed around by what's going to be taken away from us. I want to show how we can use these tools and the areas where we do want to spend our time. You're spending your time in super interesting ways and I was like clone stamping a background. So I think there's a lot of opportunity there.
- [30:52]
Eli Woolery
Let's say you've made some connections so you're able to talk to some folks at companies, but it is still a very crowded and challenging job market out there. I would say if we rewound a couple years, it would be a little bit different. There were more opportunities for entry level folks. But if you're trying to stand out in a market that's pretty crowded and challenging, what's the best way to do that right now?
- [31:16]
Kate Aronowitz
Sure, we were kind of having this discussion this morning. It sounds pretty obvious, but like attention to detail and have a very crisp portfolio. The amount of portfolios that we look at every day that have misspellings or they don't actually explicitly talk about what you did on a project, what the goal was, who the, the user was, what your intention was, why it's there, why you're applying to this role. Attention to detail in your portfolio is really, really important. Attention to your LinkedIn profile. I was just talking with Sarah, who runs design at LinkedIn, who may have some tips for you as well. But just she was saying, use your LinkedIn profile as your portfolio. In a sense that is your way to craft how the world sees you. That attention to detail, no goofy headshots like come across as straightforward and too serious of a person. But every detail matters. Attention to detail really, really does matter. That's like the basis, I think one of us was saying this morning, your portfolio will get you in the door. But if your portfolio has errors and things, we're looking at so many of them, you won't even really get the call.
- [32:23]
Steve Johnson
I love that I would add to it attitude. I heard Joanne say that earlier. Attitude is a top and authenticity. So what I mean by that is lead with what it is you're passionate about. Connect that to the work that you're sharing. Because when we're thinking about bringing a person to a team, every hire matters, every new role matters, and every new person completely reshapes how that team can work. And so really showing the ways that you are connecting the skills that you've gained, the projects and the polish to that with purpose as well, and embodying the authentic attitude you have towards that. I don't know how else to say it, like, be yourself and connect it to the work you're doing, because that comes through in a way where we want people in the team who are going to bring all of that authentic passion, the creative divergence, the quirky things that you're into. Bring it all in and share that. The reason this came to mind for me is sometimes it's easy to overthink what would somebody else want me to be? And I guess I'm trying to say there is no right answer to that question. And standing out is about embracing the things that make you super quirky and interesting human being and just bring that in connected way to your work. That's the way to bring people into a team is knowing what makes them different.
- [33:44]
Kat Holmes
Similar to the AI question. I think that if AI can get a 75% there when it comes to this, that extra 25% is you. And it's going to be fundamentally different depending on who you are. And to Kat's point, bringing that unique perspective, that's what makes it all just so much, so much, so much better. So, you know, I mean, there's this balance, right? Like we always say, bring your authentic work to self. Don't fully. Bring your fully authentic work. Yeah, don't do that. Like, some of that I don't want to see, but I definitely want to understand your unique personality and what your spin is. And I think that when it comes to exactly, you know, Kate's point, when I see portfolios, I like to see iterations of the same thing over and over. But that's just me. The rest of us may not like that, but I like to see. Here's Project A. I did it this way. I did it for this user, for this particular outcome. But then I started asking myself, well, what if? So then I tried it like this. I got this outcome and then I started. And that goes back to storytelling. You're telling Me the story of a different person that's using a different thing, a different way. I'm in product design, so it's fundamentally different. We're delivering content all over the world, so you can show me lots of different ways that you could deliver that content. But if you just nail that story of who it's for, here's the problem that I'm trying to solve, here's how I'll be able to measure it, here's how I think they're going to feel when they use it. And it's super delightful and fun. You've got me at go. Then when you show me the iterations, it may not be the best work that I've ever seen, but the process is something that I can rely on. And I'm really excited to meet you at that point because I'm hopeful you're going to bring that process to the job.
- [35:21]
Jamie Lopez
I recently heard the phrase, if you want to be interesting, be interested. And there's nothing that bums me out more than an interview where the person on the other side of it, you can tell it's super transactional for them. So I think being prepared, studying up on a place and knowing all of the basics so that you can ask great questions, that's going to make you stand out because it's going to show that you're interested in contributing to this place and making it great and taking it into the future. So be genuinely interested. Don't treat everything just like, well, I'm here for my job now and like, are you going to give it to me? And it's like it's a different thing.
- [36:02]
Carrie
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- [39:21]
Aaron Walter
Like a boss.
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Carrie
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Aaron Walter
Your website with bluehost. You've got ideas.
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Carrie
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- [39:51]
Steve Johnson
Okay. I have to tell you, I was just looking on ebay, where I go for all kinds of things I love. And there it was, that hologram trading card.
- [39:59]
Jamie Lopez
One of the rarest.
- [40:00]
Kate Aronowitz
The last one I needed for my set.
- [40:01]
Jamie Lopez
Shiny, like the designer handbag of my dreams. One of a kind. Ebay had it. And now everyone's asking, ooh, where'd you.
- [40:09]
Kat Holmes
Get your windshield wipers? Ebay has all the parts that fit my car.
- [40:13]
Carrie
No more annoying, just beautiful.
- [40:17]
Steve Johnson
Whatever you love, find it on eBay.
- [40:19]
Kate Aronowitz
EBay.
- [40:19]
Steve Johnson
Things people love.
- [40:25]
Carrie
And now back to the show.
- [40:32]
Aaron Walter
So we're going to transition to audience questions in just a minute, but before we do, I wanted to shift gears a little bit and ask you a philosophical question, because so many of the folks here today, and probably the folks listening to the podcast as well, had an experience where they were born. They went to school all the way, and then they went straight into a job. That was my experience. I went from kindergarten to grad school to work. And I never stopped to ask, what is work for? And it's something that, if we're not careful, we can get a head of gray hair and not really know what all this was about. I'm curious. You're at a point in your career where, you know, you've seen a lot, and not just at work, but also in your personal life. Steve, I'm going to start with you. What is work for?
- [41:26]
Kat Holmes
I was so happy you were going to go in, like, reverse order. So one, in my life, I didn't have that choice. Right? I mean, I just didn't. It was either live in a world that I know for a fact I probably wouldn't have lived that long in, or get out. And so work, for me, was an opportunity to get out. So that's just number one. That's just on the reality. The second one is that I love my job, like, I really, truly do. And it's been weird because I've never said it as much as I have this past week. People keep on bringing this up, like, what else do you want to do? I'm like, nothing. I just want to keep on doing this. So to me, work is something that gives me an opportunity to be super creative in a way that I never had an opportunity, Right? So it's like I get to leverage all my geeky pop culture ness, and I get to just play with the tools and the type of creativity that I've always wanted. To my whole life. Work ultimately for me is my creative expression and outlet. And I'm actually shocked I get paid to do it. I'll be really honest with you.
- [42:25]
Steve Johnson
I also did not have the choice of not I had to work. And to the point I made earlier about survival, my relationship changed significantly. I quit my job at Microsoft after being there nine years without any plans. I had saved enough. I'm the primary breadwinner for my family partner and two kids, but it saved enough that I could take some time to not work. And it ended up being about two years of not working. And when I quit my job, terrifying, but also so amazing and liberating to know that people go to coffee shops on a Tuesday and they're perfectly fine. Yeah, they're actually pretty healthy. And so seeing beyond what my routine was, what else was possible, but also what happened is new kinds of opportunities opened up. That's when I received the phone call, an invitation to write a book. It's when I met this community in many ways, because I had been so heads down in my role. And so through that I did choose eventually to go back to work. In part because I missed making things. I had gotten tired of hearing myself talk, not getting hands on with something. But also I realized how much I really value shaping different aspects of our culture. And the way that design, unlike any other practice, can give you really practical ways to shift mindsets and hearts and beliefs and engage conversation. And so that's why I show up to work every day, maybe for sales software, but I swear I am so driven to shift the culture and the mindset just of the people around me. And that's the part. And if you call that work, then I'm happy to do it. But I feel like that's just purpose as designers that we get to do. It's a privilege.
- [44:08]
Jamie Lopez
My minor in school was designed for social impact and I feel very lucky that. So my dad was a pastor and I saw him like build communities and like help our community. He did food giveaways and, you know, so many things just like help the immediate community around him. And we didn't have anything. So I saw him sort of doing that from that place. And I think that kind of carried into my design career a little bit where I did know pretty early on that I wanted to do good with design. And it is not cliche to me to say that like design can make the world a better place. Like it genuinely can. It's this unique and special thing that can get into an industry like healthcare or Climate, tech or all of these spaces and think really creatively about what the better future looks like. So I personally think there's, you know, some element of responsibility, but just like incredible gift of opportunity doing that. And it can look like a lot of different things that are making the world. Netflix makes my world a lot better, you know.
- [45:16]
Kate Aronowitz
Wow. I'm still trying to figure this one out. I would say what work has done for me, it's interesting. Probably my favorite part about work has been the people I've worked with. But what it's done for me has taught me who I am. Like, it's the one thing in my life I can go in and say, I was me today and I was appreciated for what I can bring and I did something for me that then resulted something for the world. I'm about to have a very big birthday and I'm about to turn like 25. But it's taken a long time. It takes years. It can take, you know, but. But to find authentically who you are, what you connect with, and find a place where you can do a little bit of that every day with awesome people, no one can take that away from you. And I think that that's what work has done for me and that's why I continue to do it.
- [46:08]
Aaron Walter
I love that you'll all find your own answer to that question, but it is a question that I hope you'll take with you throughout your entire life. What is work about and why this big buildup? We've talked to a lot of interesting creative people over the years. One conversation stands out to me, which is with Ed Catmull. He co founded Pixar and he had a moment where they were watching Toy Story and they were. I think maybe they were going to receive an Oscar. And he was sort of thinking to himself, what part of this project is me? And he said, just asking that question is an act of division that's separating me from all the people. And what he was most proud of in his career, and, I mean, it's amazing, he worked on Star wars, he worked with George Lucas, he innovated in so many ways in animation and 3D design. He said what he was most proud of was the relationships that he built. Well, let's hear from you. What questions do you have for our panel? We have a microphone that is floating around, so please don't be shy. This is a great opportunity to ask questions from some amazing folks right up front here.
- [47:21]
Sejun
Hello, my name is Sejun. I'm a senior at UX Design department. The question that I have is that I see you guys really emphasize on the relationships that you guys build over the careers. And I feel like the small talking could play a big role into building that relationship outside of the career. But I come from the culture where a small talk is not really very famous. So are those small talks are natural to you guys? Or, like, is it practice? If it's practice, like, what kind of. You know, some things that you kind of, like, think about some tips for the people like me that.
- [48:02]
Aaron Walter
How do you talk to human beings?
- [48:06]
Jamie Lopez
No, I mean, I don't think any of us can grab the microphone fast enough to talk about how much we hate small talk and how bad we are at it. And, like, so, like, I hate, like, networking. The idea of networking is like a literal nightmare to me. And I'm like, I'm not great at it at all. And you do not have to be great at that. I think you have to find environments to challenge yourself bit by bit and find the spaces where you do feel like you can start to build connection. Connections and small talk are very different things. Like, sometimes you'll find taking a little.
- [48:40]
Kat Holmes
Bit of a leap.
- [48:41]
Jamie Lopez
That does feel like small talk is important, but that is not the secret to anyone's success up here.
- [48:48]
Steve Johnson
I think it does also come with preparation. As Kate was mentioning earlier, you prepare your portfolio with posh. It's preparing on people too, right? I keep little notes as I meet folks. I'll probably make notes from folks I've met here just because we may cross paths again in two years, five years, and being able to reference back to that the little things that make a difference to a person. I'll also add that relationships in my mind are not all warm and fuzzy. They're not about being friendly or being nice necessarily, but it's about taking an opportunity when you have that interaction with another person and really coming with intention, especially in the workplace. I'll say that as I was transitioning into this role, some of the ways that the door opened up is because I had 10 minutes with a executive who was about to go speak to the company about some of the really hard topics that were happening during the pandemic and had 10 minutes before going on. They'd asked me to be there as an Asian American leader with him. He was not Asian American. And he said, I'm thinking about sharing a story about my friend who's Asian American. And I said, nope, I know you don't know me. I'm gonna give you some really direct feedback in this Moment that is not the story to tell, but please tell a story about your experience in a way that will connect with this group. I can share more with you later about why, but this is all the time we have. I just want to give you that little bit of feedback. And he ended up being the person who hired me into this role. He said he'd never formed such quick respect for someone, for the honesty. And so relationships come in all flavors and forms. They take courage, they take kindness. They take compassion. But they also sometimes just take a quick slap across the face like, nope, don't do that. Wake up. Let's find other ways to make this work. So relationships mean many, many different things.
- [50:33]
Kate Aronowitz
Yeah. And I would say also plus one to what Kat said. Like, if you are in a situation where you have to make small talk, ask a question. Find a question to ask people. They like talking about themselves. Ask them something about what they're up to, what they're doing. Ask an authentic question, and just be a really good listener. Pick up on something and just take it from there. If you come into a conversation from a authentically curious place, it just also tends to flow a lot easier. Rather than, I need to show up this way. I need to do this. Like, I'm curious about you. I just want to know something and just let it go, and it's okay. And chances. If all of us are nervous in small talk, the person you're talking to is probably nervous as well.
- [51:12]
Kat Holmes
So Kate just used the word several times. She said, curious, curious, Curious. Right. Here's what's hilarious. We're all sitting up here, and there's like, how many people in this room? 200 or something? I don't know. Right. And we had an opportunity for Q and A. You were the very first person to stand up and say, how do I do small talk? You just did it. Right. It's like you literally answered your own question because you demonstrated curiosity. You had something on your mind. You saw a group of people that you may consider to be experts. You wanted an answer, so you asked them. That's all you gotta do. Don't do anything else. Right. So from now on, for the rest of your career, if you want to know something, seek out the person that might know and just ask them. That's not idle chatter. I'm with you. Don't waste your time with that, because what you'll get won't be nutritionally impactful to you at all. But if you have a question, if you want to get better, if you see someone doing Excellent work. Don't think of them as competition. Go ask them, say, hey, how'd you do that? And just have that conversation. And then that gets to Kat's point. They will build a level of respect for you because then you guys will start bantering and you'll start chatting back and forth, forth. And again, the person sitting next to you might hire you one day, she might hire you because of that conversation.
- [52:26]
Aaron Walter
See a hand over here. See one down front.
- [52:30]
Eli Woolery
Hello everyone. My name is Sean McAteer and I am a member of the UX MFA program here at Scan. My question for you guys, based off our conversation so far, it seems like each of you are in a unique position to have a firm understanding of emerging trends in innovative design. My question for you is how do you stay tuned into what comes next?
- [52:51]
Kat Holmes
I try my hardest to keep my hand on the pulse of pop culture, but it's just because I'm into pop culture. I read, read, read a lot. I've got a tremendous amount of like news feeds that are always coming in. Similar to my previous answer, I'm super curious about what people find to be entertaining and I also really try hard not to assume that what I'm doing is right or the only thing, like I say back in my day to make my 20 year old kid kind of cringe. But for the most part I'm always just trying to find out what is something that people are currently into and how interesting is that to me and then who are the people that are currently using it and what's their ecosystem. So just staying curious I guess is the answer.
- [53:31]
Jamie Lopez
Hello, I'm also a UX student here at scad. I've asked a few different guest speakers this and I keep getting different answers. So how would a good portfolio look to you when you're trying to hire a UX designer?
- [53:45]
Kate Aronowitz
So there's probably a lot of details that you'll hear that are varied in different answers, but I think I probably go back to basics and please build them. When I had to say projects where it's very clear what the goal is, what role you played, what the outcomes were, attention to detail and have it oriented towards the job that you're trying to get. I don't know if I can be much more clearer than that. I mean for ux, obviously, like, I think Steve actually made a really good point. Show iteration, show your process. Everything doesn't just come out perfectly just from you. There's a process behind it. Show a little bit of that, Show a little bit of the mess behind the scenes, tell a bit of a story with it, why you thought that was interesting, why you're doing it. I've also been at the school a couple times in the past year and we've been also trying to find ways to make sure that your curriculum stays really relevant. If I'm hiring for healthcare, maybe I do want to see a car you designed for an alien, but it's probably even cooler if I see something that maybe shows interest in healthcare. It's okay to do your own side projects as well, but I think just clear, concise descriptions of what you have and good attention to detail.
- [54:55]
Kat Holmes
Hi, my name is Sam Merrill. I'm studying industrial design with a focus.
- [54:58]
Aaron Walter
In mobility and design. And my question for you guys is, outside of design and connections, what made.
- [55:04]
Kat Holmes
You who you are today?
- [55:06]
Steve Johnson
I've put a lot of pressure on myself over my career to be perfect. I'm always optimizing, like I could have done this better. One of the things that occurred to Me in my mid-40s is I was actually spending a lot of time thinking about all the ways I could have optimized my time at college better. I should have done more, I should have gotten more classes. I slept through a lot of them, actually slept through a final once. It's just like a lot of things, I'm like, gosh, I should have been so much better at that. And as my eldest child is now 17 and applying to colleges and I just look at her and I think how much pressure I'm still putting on that 17 year old, 18 year old version of myself. And I would never talk like that to my daughter. I would never expect that. And I think that realization that I have so much gratitude for that 18, 19, 20 year old version of myself for having the determination, the resilience, the pure grit, the ability to just get through. So I had this foundation for the rest of my life that I've built upon. But that switch into recognizing all of that, what do you want to call it, just the humanness over time is part of what makes my life possible. Now I'd say more than anything is shaping. It's actively shaping the grace I have for myself, the grace I have for people around me, and the grace I have for the expectations of really what is it that I want to spend my time doing. So that was a very philosophical answer to your very philosophical question.
- [56:44]
Jamie Lopez
For me, I think I kind of remember a moment where I've spent a lot of time in tech environments and corporate environments. And in the beginning I would do Everything within my power to sort of just, like, erase, like, the me of me. And it's like, I'm always gonna be a queer Latina woman with tattoos, like, in a room.
- [57:10]
Kate Aronowitz
Like.
- [57:14]
Jamie Lopez
No matter how hard I try, no matter, like, how many times I read that business book or put on the right outfit or whatever, like, no one's not seeing this. And, like, when I realized that and really, like, accepted that, like, there's no fooling anyone here, so let's not fool anyone at all, and let's be me. Because I do keep getting invited into that room. I do keep getting invited into these spaces, and I am there. And, like, when I really accepted myself about that, like, a kind of next level opened up for me.
- [57:52]
Kate Aronowitz
Hello.
- [57:53]
Eva
So thank you so much for coming. This whole talk has been very inspiring. I'm a junior in ux and I'm currently trying to apply to internships and, you know, get that internship done. I've been finding myself trying to reach out to people like you with a lot of experience trying to learn, but I just end up in the junk, you know? So what. What can someone like me say in a short message to stand out and get the attention of someone that has more experience to get a coffee talk or just, like, learn more on how to get somewhere?
- [58:28]
Kat Holmes
Yeah. So I'll take a shot at this. Quick question for you. When you're reaching out, are you reaching out to design leaders or recruiters?
- [58:35]
Eva
So both. Sometimes to recruiters, sometimes to leaders. I really don't necessarily do it for the internship they are trying to promote, but just to learn, what should I do? What could I do to get better? Those kind of questions, but they just end up being seen and no answer.
- [58:54]
Kat Holmes
Yeah, you see all of us looking at each other because right now, what's happening is that the systems of which you're going through, that's the barrier between us. In some cases, we don't even get to you because of exactly what you're saying. And I don't want to scare anybody in here, but it's a reality. What you're asking is really great. You're saying, hey, how can I cut through that system so I can actually make an impression on you guys? Because we would be like, of course, give me a call. Then you give me a call. I never respond. That kind of sucks. So that's why you see us all like, which one of us can answer this question? So now, that gave Kate enough time to come up with a really good answer.
- [59:27]
Kate Aronowitz
I'm going to have real talk, though. We all, all of us. I'm going to point to 10 people out here. If any of us open our LinkedIn right now, I probably have 15 questions from designers that say, I'm sorry, I'm going to put you on the spot. I will talk to you afterwards. I'm happy to actually give you some advice for asking this question. Happy to answer a question afterwards. Will you be my mentor? What should I do? What should my career look like? These really big questions that are really important questions, but one, folks that you're reaching out to, they don't have a lot of time. And two, they don't know you. Actually, only you know that answer, really. But I do answer questions on LinkedIn if it's really specific to me or something only I can answer, I guess. And it's something I can answer in, like, two minutes. Hey, Kate, I saw this role is open. I'm thinking about applying. Do you know this, this or this? Or. Hey, I listened to your podcast, had a question when you said this. Can you answer that? If I can bang through it quickly and you're showing me the respect of my time and you're specific with the question, I'm happy to answer. But getting stopped and saying, will you be my mentor? Will you take care of me? That's a very personal question. That's also a really big responsibility on me, and I don't know that I can fulfill that. This might not help with the internship piece, but if any of you are reaching out to people, those big, giant questions, we don't have the answers for you. We're figuring it out on our own. But if you can be a little bit more specific and targeted, and don't ask me to get on the phone, don't ask me to meet up and something quick, and then maybe a spark forms, maybe we have a relationship where we can keep going, Jamie and I.
- [61:04]
Jamie Lopez
That's why I never formally asked you to be my mentor.
- [61:06]
Kate Aronowitz
No. Wise choice, but you need to, right? So Jamie and I got to know each. I was working with a GV company that Jamie worked at. Jamie pulled me aside and Think I forgot what you just asked me a very specific question. I'm working on this project. Would you go A or B? And I was like, oh, I would go A. And we talked. And then the next time I was in town, I said, hey, Jamie, how's that project going? And pretty soon, this friendship form. And now, like, seven years later, Jamie's like a peer. She's a badass on this stage. Like, she's up here. But that was formed through authentic work and authentic transactions.
- [61:41]
Steve Johnson
The one thing I would add into that is if you do reach out and you don't hear to keep reaching out, you know, like some of it's just the medium of an email or a LinkedIn message. And to the point of I think I have a very long list of unanswered LinkedIn and it keeps me up at night, but it is often about just breaking through that long list. Right? Or breaking through. And so it's not about you. It's not about not not liking what you said or not liking what you shared, but like the persistence. I guess I would say set some game for yourself of like, I'm going to reach out in three different ways or I'm going to reach out on a regular basis and continue to like this, the perseverance in those that we just all have to do because these digital media like are overrun with notifications. So it's a very pragmatic thing. But I'd say don't take it personally and persist because it will work.
- [62:34]
Eli Woolery
I would say that persistence continues to pay off. So some of the guests that we've managed to get on the show, I won't name names. They've taken three or four years of asking and not asking every week, but asking once a year in a very polite way until they eventually say yes. So if you build that skill, that can pay off.
- [62:52]
Kat Holmes
The only thing that I'll close with is this. I don't know if this is possible, but right now what happens is that I'm sure that all of you hit up the recruiters during intern season, which makes sense, but you don't talk to them any other time of the year. Right. So just trying to figure out who the recruiters are for those companies and honestly just trying to build some relationship with them when it's not intern season. That may or may not help. I'm not sure if that helps.
- [63:17]
Eva
Yeah, that's awesome.
- [63:19]
Kat Holmes
I literally got the pouty face right here from this question. So I'm going to give her the mic.
- [63:27]
Jamie Lopez
Thank you. So hi, my name is Eva and UX major and then came from same place as Sejun, where he from. So I'm not used to the smart talk, but he made me to stand out. So my question for you guys because one thing in my mind these days, a lot of UX designers in this world and getting more and more. So my question is, what is your expectation for next generation designer?
- [63:55]
Kat Holmes
So a couple things. One is I don't actually have time to teach you how to be a team player. I just don't. Right. In a lot of cases, I'm hoping that when you're applying with me, you already know how to work with these two. And it may not be them specifically, but you're not coming in and saying, I'm going to be the best designer you've ever met, and I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. You're saying more of a, I'm going to help us win. How can I help us win? What can I do to contribute? And I get it. It's hard. Look, I mean, from the second year in kindergarten until you graduate, it's all about your grade. Mom and dad are like, what grade did you get? And if all of a sudden you're on this group project, they're like, why are those other kids bringing down your grade? It's, like, very competitive against everybody. But then the second you hit one of us, you're a we. You're not a you. And that's not a bad thing, because I was so honored when they did the intro and they were talking about Netflix getting Emmys. It's not me. Netflix got Emmys, and it was hundreds of people that worked towards that. And I'm definitely proud of those successes, but I was a very small piece of it. So the next generation of designers, one, I expect you to be super curious. I expect you to be fearless. I expect you to push me, because if you don't, then I don't need you. What are you doing that's additive if you're not bringing something new. And I expect you to try super hard to be a we and not a I. As much as that is possibly different than what you've been doing all during.
- [65:23]
Jamie Lopez
School, I'm seeing my opportunity to really celebrate and shout out foundations. Like, the foundations. When you come to my company, I expect that I'm gonna have to teach you a lot about cancer research and oncology, what our norms are and all of the different things that we like, that's my responsibility. And I know that, to Steve's point, what I don't have time or any desire to teach you is being a teammate, but also, like, how to critique, how to take critique, how to take feedback as, like, the gift that it is, how to strive for excellence within your own work. The craft. The craft that you're going to learn in, like, foundations classes that I have heard you all cringe through and push back against. And, like, that stuff is, like, the most important stuff. And that's the stuff that's evergreen and is going to like be the stuff you turn back to when all the technology is different and everything is a totally different set of tools. We're using that like early process and that excellence and that core craft you're learning. That's the stuff I expect you to come in with.
- [66:26]
Aaron Walter
Fantastic. This has been a super rich conversation. Kate, Jamie, Kat, Steve, thank you so much.
- [66:35]
Kat Holmes
Thank you for having us.
- [66:37]
Steve Johnson
Thank you all.
- [66:49]
Aaron Walter
This episode was produced by Eli Woolery.
- [66:52]
Carrie
And me, Aaron Walter, with engineering and production support from Brian Paik of Pacific Audio.
- [66:58]
Aaron Walter
If you found this episode useful, we hope that you'll leave us a review.
- [67:02]
Carrie
On Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to finer shows. Or simply drop a link to the show in your team's Slack channel designbetterpodcast.com.
- [67:13]
Aaron Walter
It'll really help others discover the show.
- [67:15]
Carrie
Until next time.