← Design Matters with Debbie Millman
Design Matters with Debbie Millman
20th Anniversary Celebration with distinguished actors Claire Danes, Ethan Hawke, Nick Offerman, Kyra Sedgwick, and Josh Brolin
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- [00:01]
Josh Brolin
Yeah, that was just supposed to be a kiss. We filmed it. It was supposed to be a pack.
- [00:05]
Claire Danes
I would rollerblade from audition to audition.
- [00:08]
Debbie Millman
He said, you have two lines. I said, then heck yeah. From the TED Audio Collective, this is Design Matters with Debbie Millman. On Design Matters, Debbie talks with some of the most creative people in the world about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they're thinking about and working. On this episode, in celebration of the 20th anniversary of design Matters, we'll hear from some of the actors that Debbie has interviewed over the years.
- [00:40]
Nick Offerman
Oh, I simply finally get it. Just act like yourself.
- [00:45]
Kara Sedgwick
A lot was expected of me and I was excited to live up to that.
- [00:56]
Debbie Millman
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game?
- [01:01]
Nick Offerman
Shifting a little money here, a little.
- [01:03]
Debbie Millman
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- [01:27]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
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- [01:39]
Kara Sedgwick
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- [01:42]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
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- [01:53]
Kara Sedgwick
Use on Monday.com.
- [01:58]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
This episode is sponsored by Gilt, your partner in taxes. If you're a business owner, you probably know that tax season shouldn't be just a once a year scramble. Yet for so many of us, that's exactly what it feels like. A flurry of forums, emails and missed opportunities. G is a modern tax planning and strategy solution for you and your business that takes a smarter approach. Better pairing real CPAs with AI to help you align your tax strategy to how your business grows. With gelt, your dedicated CPA team reviews your strategy every quarter so you can optimize things like entity elections, retirement contributions and hidden credits or deductions before it's too late. It's proactive, transparent and built for growing businesses, from creative studios and design agencies to consultants and independent practitioners. Make taxes part of the business plan and schedule a call@joingt.com today to learn how your taxes can become a lever for growth. For the first 15 years of my two decade journey, podcasting design matters. I didn't interview actors. I'm not exactly sure why, given actors often live exceedingly creative lives and interviewing creative people has always been the foundation of the podcast. But beginning in 2020, I started booking some of my favorite actors. Doing so allowed me to do something that a lot of other interviewers don't often get to do. I asked my guests all about the circuitous roads they took and route to becoming the acclaimed artists they currently are. First up is Claire Danes. I spoke with Claire in 2020, just after she wrapped the final season of Homeland for her role as Carrie Matheson. Danes was nominated for five Emmy awards and won two. But before we talked about her success, I asked her about the very beginnings of her career. At six years old, you started therapy, which I believe you still continue to this day. And I understand that I've been in therapy for 30 years with the same therapist. And you've said that you think it's a helpful tool and a luxury to self reflect and get some insight. What motivated you to start so young? I didn't start until I was in my twenties, unfortunately.
- [04:27]
Claire Danes
Yeah, I went through a difficult time at six. I saw ghosts and other creatures.
- [04:38]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Do you think they were real or do you think you were imagining it?
- [04:41]
Claire Danes
I think I was very confused at the time. Specifically there was a gargoyle who quote unquote, lived on the pipes of our loft and would make me do things. And I think it was more like maybe burgeoning OCD or something. But I have to assume that I had a really unruly imagination and maybe I was confused about how to harness it. I identify it just kind of coexist with it. Once I went to therapy, my parents therapist, I finally realized that I had a problem and just that that acknowledgement was sufficient to puncture the neuroses and they naturally dissipated. I mean I remembered Gideon said, can you anticipate when you're going to see these creatures? And I guess I had to admit that I, I had anticipated them. And he said, well then you can also make them go away. But yeah, I mean I was dogged by that anxiety like well into my 20s. I was really afraid of the dark. I'm not anymore. I'm really proud of that. I don't know when that shift happened.
- [06:04]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
But I was going to ask you about that actually, how that happened.
- [06:07]
Claire Danes
I remember in college I called my boyfriend in the middle of the night so that he could escort me to the, the dorm bathroom so I didn't have to go alone. Like it Was still had a grip on me.
- [06:19]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
How did you get over it? How did you get over that fear?
- [06:22]
Claire Danes
The iPhone, Flashlight, maybe.
- [06:26]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Technology, the many uses.
- [06:29]
Kara Sedgwick
I don't know.
- [06:29]
Claire Danes
I think. Look, I still have a lot of questions about what lurks in the ether, and I'm really, really endlessly fascinated by the subconscious and what happens when our brains go dark at night, you know? So my big. My big phobias are ghosts, rats, and cockroaches. And I realize they're all nocturnal. They're all numerous. Like, if you see one, you know, there are countless others. It's that kind of deep stuff that defines and motivates us that we can't know fully. Right. But I also. I mean, love that.
- [07:16]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Yeah. I'm fascinated by it as well. What happens when we're not thinking? You know, what happens when we're not seeing?
- [07:23]
Claire Danes
Yeah. It's like the ocean. I mean, there's so much of it and so little we understand about it.
- [07:31]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
When you were 8 years old, you were bothered by a male classmate and became worried when you considered the possibility that he could read your mind and discover your revenge fantasies. And when you asked your mom if it was possible for people to read your thoughts, she replied, your imagination is your own. You can do whatever you like with it. And there, right there, is, like, evidence of good parenting.
- [07:58]
Josh Brolin
Yes.
- [07:59]
Claire Danes
Wasn't that. Isn't that a wonderful thing to say?
- [08:01]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
It's an absolutely wonderful thing to say.
- [08:03]
Claire Danes
Yes. I'm getting goosebumps as you say that. It's true. I just was so relieved.
- [08:09]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
I was so relieved.
- [08:13]
Claire Danes
Because the vision I had was pretty violent.
- [08:18]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Yeah. What was the revenge fantasy? What were you going to do?
- [08:21]
Kara Sedgwick
I did.
- [08:21]
Claire Danes
I envisioned this, like, circle of people. He was in the center of it, and I guess people just went in and, like, beat him up sort of rough. Like, roughed him up and then went back in a circle and another person went in and. Oh, gosh, I don't think I would ever allow myself to go there even, like, now as an adult, but it was a release at the time.
- [08:45]
Kara Sedgwick
Yeah.
- [08:45]
Claire Danes
And I think that's a similar. That's similar stuff that I was wrestling with. I mean, I think that was what. That was related to this business of the ghosts and what is a fleeting thought and what's real and how do I negotiate all of that and what are my boundaries and where do I start and end and how do I engage with the objective world, you know?
- [09:18]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Well, that's also a lot about acting, too. Of course.
- [09:21]
Claire Danes
That is. That's a lot about acting. And, you know, there has to be a porousness there between what is conceived, what is imagined, and what is actual. And you have to kind of float in and out of those two states of being. I guess I've always been really consumed with thinking about that.
- [09:48]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Well, it's interesting. Cause it was also at that point in your life, you decided you wanted to be an actress. But what I thought was so interesting was that you were worried about not being able to make enough money, and you decided that you were gonna become a therapist for your day job and teach acting workshops on the week. And I'm wondering, were you worried about not making enough money, or were you worried about not being successful?
- [10:14]
Claire Danes
That's a really good question. I mean, it's really calcified over time as my being nervous about being uncomfortable, you know, physically not having enough money to support myself, which also had to do with the feeling of freedom. I wanted to, you know, be independent and have a sense of expansiveness in my life. I think it was more about that. But, yeah, maybe there was the fear of doing it in a way that wouldn't connect with people or, you know, wouldn't be successful. Yeah, that might have been part of it.
- [10:50]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
I love the fact that at 10 years old, you formally announced that, money or no money, you have to be true to your art. There was no plan B. You were going to take the risk and become an actress. You decided this. Attention years old, I believed you announced this at the dinner table and you went out and found an agent. Talk about independence. How did you find an agent?
- [11:16]
Debbie Millman
Did you just, like, look one up.
- [11:17]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
In the phone book? Kind of.
- [11:19]
Claire Danes
I mean, I. My best friend Ariel's mom is a woman called Tamar Rogoff, who's a choreographer. So Ariel had done a student film, and that same director was doing his next student film and was asking for a reference, and Tamar suggested me. So Tamar was kind of my first agent. And then that was my first experience working on a set in front of a camera. But I guess before that, I had. I guess the first move that I made was to take classes, acting classes at lee Strasberg at 10. And totally loved it. And then there was a performing arts junior high school called ppas, which is still around. I went in its first year of its existence, and I met other kids who were working professionally, and I had this student film under my belt. And I guess I had done some other student films too. Like, I, you know, I was in that world. Yeah. And then it was at that School through those other kids where I learned what an agent was and what a headshot was. And we had this dark room in our loft and the woman who was renting it took my headshot photos and we printed them right there on site and, and we sent them out and people answered, agents answered, and then they saw this little film that I had done and I guess that was arresting enough to have them hire me. But it was really funny because I, I would just, I would, I would rollerblade from audition to audition, arriving a sweaty mess. But the stakes were so low. Like I had a day job of being a kid and going to school and I mean, of course I didn't feel like it was extracurricular because it was so clearly my life's calling, but not a whole lot was riding on it and I was just grateful to have a chance to do it. I just loved it so much. Like I didn't have to get the job. I was reading Sides with the casting director and that was another, another turn. So I don't think I had any smell of desperation.
- [13:58]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Claire Danes in 2020. In 2021, I interviewed Ethan Hawke. He had just finished his third novel, A Bright Ray of Darkness and also the Showtime limited series the Good Lord Bird in which he played the anti slavery crusader John Brown. As always, I started asking questions about his early days. Ethan, is it true that when you were growing up you had fantasies of becoming a merchant marine?
- [14:30]
Debbie Millman
That is very true. Well, I was a big Jack London fan, you know, and I had a kid who lived down the street from me. He was a grade older than I was, Nick, and he liked Jack London and he was really cool. You know, when you're 16, a 17 year old just feels like he's got the world by the scruff of the neck, you know, and, and he went off to be a merchant marine and live off his Jack London fantasies. I have no idea what happened to him, but we used to read books together and talk about them and I thought he was a. You know, I wanted to be just like him, but I also want to be just like Jack London. And so I thought that might be a great avenue to chase down an interesting life, is to disappear into the seas and come back somebody interesting. Because I thought I was pretty boring as I was.
- [15:15]
Nick Offerman
Really?
- [15:15]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Why is that?
- [15:17]
Debbie Millman
Well, I think I was pretty boring. I mean, I think most young people struggle with a sense of who they are and what they want to be. And you look around you and some things seem interesting, but most paths feel impossible to walk Down. And I think the road of adventure loomed large in my head. I long to have been born in another time period when the world felt wilder, I guess. But probably every generation feels that way.
- [15:46]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Your parents met in high school, Ethan. Your mom was 17 when she had you, but they divorced when you were 4 years old. And when asked in an interview if their divorce scarred you, you stated scarred, put such a judgment on it, and then go on to declare that you were formed by it and made by it. And I wasn't sure if that was a good thing or a bad thing.
- [16:10]
Debbie Millman
Well, I mean, that's called the unity of opposites. Isn't. Is a good thing, and it is a bad thing. I find children long to. They long, long, long in their heart and soul and every stitch of their body longs to believe that their parents love each other and that they were born for a reason, that they were born in love. You know, most of us long for that. And the advantage of being raised, you know, from the point of divorce, you know, from that vantage point, is that you see that the world is more complicated than a little earlier. And you get your heart broken a little earlier. And that break has opportunity to invite some wisdom into your life or at least some experience, right? And I think that it can make you stronger, you know? What's that poem? Stronger in the Broken Places. It wakes you up to the idea that no one has the perfect life and that you were born in love. And it doesn't matter what happened to the band after they made your music. Your music was born out of something beautiful.
- [17:11]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
After the divorce, you alternated between living on the east coast with your mother and visiting your dad back in Texas. And I read that this caused you to alternate between personalities in. In what way?
- [17:26]
Debbie Millman
Well, I bet you everybody who came from, you know, going to Mom's house, going to Dad's house, they know exactly what I'm talking about.
- [17:34]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Oh, yeah. My parents got divorced when I was 8, so I get it.
- [17:36]
Debbie Millman
There's a personality you have that you think makes your mother like you better. And this personality you have that you think makes your father like you better. And for a long time, I thought that meant that I was a liar, you know, that. That I wasn't showing the real me, who's the real me. And slowly, as you get older, you realize that these people, they're all me. I love my mother and I love my father, and I want them to see the best of me. It doesn't make me a liar, but I do think it taught me At a young age how malleable my personality was. And if my personality was malleable, probably everyone's is. And it might have been a very good entry point for the life of a performer.
- [18:17]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Do you think that that gave you a sense that you were performing for them, for your parents?
- [18:24]
Debbie Millman
Well, I know that Marlon Brando would tell you that you're performing for me right now, and I'm performing for you. That what is our authentic self is very mysterious. We want our peers to like us. We want to be somebody. Respect. We want people to think, you know, positive things about us and all those things, and we manipulate ourselves. And we do do a little bit of, you know. You perform for grandma. Yes, ma'. Am. This apple pie is delicious, Grandma. You're the best, Grandma. You don't. What? And you walk into your buddy's house and you say, hey, who's got a joint? You know, I mean, it doesn't mean you're, like, the worst person in the world. It means you're. You're bigger than one thing. That's what I think, anyway. Performance, like the thing about divorce, we use all these words. Performance makes it sound like you're. Oh, like you're not being true. I. I am being true. When I talk to my grandmother, I. That is who I. I want to be for her. And, you know, does that make sense?
- [19:23]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Oh, absolutely. I. I read that while you were in high school. It gave you the opportunity to become an expert at fitting in. And I was really fascinated. As also a child of divorce, I also had that sort of ability to. That range of wanting to be friends with lots of different groups. I understand that you were on the school football team. In the church youth group, you had a range of friends that included graphic novel reading geeks, theater nerds, punk rock girls, Deadheads. How were you able to slip in and out of so many Personas at that time? Because I do sense that it really was authentic in the same way that I felt that as I was slipping in and out, I was still being aspects of me, too.
- [20:06]
Debbie Millman
I think you can be authentic with different types of people. I mean, the positive, maybe without breaking my arm, patting myself on the back, is that, you know, I'm not inherently judgmental. I'm not convinced that I'm the moral authority on anything. And so I don't really have a belief that somebody's got it right and somebody's got it wrong. And I think because I moved around a lot, I was really hungry for friendship, and I would accept it wherever it came From. I think that's a quality I like. I've tried to hold on to that quality. It's a quality that when I see it in others, I like it. You know, one of the things. One of my best friends is Richard Linklater. And one of the things. We've spent a lot of time together. He's a great filmmaker. And one of the things that makes him a great filmmaker is just a genuine love of people. If you watch Days to Confuse, you see, he has love for every type of, you know, category you want to put somebody in. And he sees people with compassionate eyes as opposed to. There's a lot of movies and films out there that are always judging. He's a good guy, he's a bad guy. She's a liar. Oh, he's the enemy. We're all caught in this huge spider web. Trying to make sense out of where we were born and who was our grandma and what our aptitude is for. And I've just never felt too judgmental. And I think that that helped me as a kid.
- [21:30]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
From what I understand, you wanted to be an actor since you were 12. After your mother enrolled you in an after school program and you were cast in a production of George Bernard Shaw's Saint Joan. Was that really when your first seeds of wanting to perform were cast?
- [21:47]
Debbie Millman
I think a lot of young people want to feel like they matter, like they're special, like they're interesting, like somebody cares about them. And one of the first ways you could do that is to jump in front of the class and dance or sing or play a song or, you know, or. Or be great at sports or, you know, some way to set yourself apart, you know. And I think that I don't believe that my initial interest in acting came from a desire to express myself or some real artistic impulse. I think it came from a simple desire to be noticed, to be liked, you know, And I think that's a very dangerous fire to play with. But, yeah, I went to an acting class. I really did love it. I was pretty good at it, you know, from my first class. We had a guest teacher come into the. It was at the Paul Robeson center for Performing Arts. And this guest teacher came from McCarter Theater. And he led a little improv class. And I remember vividly in the parking lot there. And he asked me, you know, would I be interested in playing Dunois Page? I was like, well, do I have any lines? You know? He said, you have two lines. I said, then, heck, yeah. And so I got to put on armor and be a little page to a knight, his little squire. And I had, you know, a couple. I had to sneeze, which was very hard to do. My. The dunwas page sneezes and they know the winds changed. And I took that, that sneezing exercise very hard. But so, anyway, my point is, my first acting class, I got my first part and my life has been. Sometimes I say acting chose me. You know, it guided me. I felt caught in a river almost, you know, early in my career with Dead Poets Society. You know, that movie could have been a bomb. And two weeks later, I'd been on a boat chasing my friend Nick, emulating.
- [23:40]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Jack London, you know, Ethan Hawke from 2021. Unlike Ethan Hawke and Claire Danes, who both got famous when they were still in their teens, Nick Offerman has had a more gradual ascent into stardom. Nick Offerman first hit the big time in his 40s when he played Amy Poehler's boss Rick Swanson on the sitcom Parks and Recreation. I wanted to find out about his early career when I spoke with him in 2021. In my research, I discovered that while you were in school, you took two semesters of ballet and enrolled in a kabuki theater class taught by Shouzou Sato and ended up traveling to Japan with Sato's kabuki troupe. Did that work influence how you were approaching your acting?
- [24:31]
Nick Offerman
Well, sure. I mean, you know, all these Illinois kids basically are suddenly learning this traditional Japanese art form. And his genius, he's an award win theater artist. And his genius was for taking the plays of Shakespeare or Greek dramas and interpreting them in the kabuki style. So the makeup, the wigs, the presentational movement and voice work, it was fantastic. You know, Kabuki, Othello, Kabuki, Aristophanes, the frogs or what have you. It was such profound lessons in showmanship in so many ways. The reverence with which the kabuki artists, the way they treat the stage and the audience and the art form felt holy to me in a way that church, they always said church was supposed to, but that never really clicked like it, because it lacked the passion of the theater. And I think that's part of what led me to the stage was growing up in the Catholic Church. And I got. I appreciate the values, you know, the lessons of, of the church, but it just didn't. You know, nobody was juiced, nobody was like, man, that sermon really blew me away or made me cry. So I wanted to take the sort of values of a religion and take it to a different Kind of barn. And that's what they taught me in Kabuki was before every show, everyone would do this stretching exercise where you line up all the way across the stage, kneeling in front of a towel, and you do this sort of stretching. It's sort of yogic. You push the towel, then do kind of salute to the sun kind of pose until you push yourself all the way across the stage. So the whole company cleans the stage before every show. So, I mean, it really has this reverential sort of shrine atmosphere. And then when we started a theater company in Chicago, me and my friends, a lot of us had, had come from that kabuki training. And so we were able to bring that a lot of the same aesthetic to our own, you know, crappy little Chicago company.
- [26:44]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
You earned your degree in theater, but have said that in the four years of theater school, it became clear that you were trying too hard to be hip and cool and urbane and had unwittingly thought that your sort of country rube Persona would not be interesting to an audience. When did you realize otherwise? Oh.
- [27:08]
Nick Offerman
I mean, because of the Kabuki show, we, we took a year off school, we toured Japan, and it was Kabuki Achilles, it was an adaptation of the Iliad, and this was 1991. And I hate to, I always hate this sentence, but the first Gulf War had just broken out. Like while we were in production and Champagne Urbana, we took the show to Japan. Some producers loved the anti war message of Achilles and Hector, ultimately saying to each other, you are as I, we're the same. Why are we trying to kill each other? We ended up touring Hungary and then we played a theater outside of Philly for six months called the People's Light and Theater Company in Malvern, which is up the main line from Philadelphia. And so that was a year off school. So I spent five years in theater school all told. And then it was a couple years into Chicago after school where naturalism finally began to occur to me. Where, I don't know, the insecurity or the ignorance, I just chipped away at it until finally I realized, oh, I simply, finally get it. Just act like yourself and I'd be so thick headed. It literally took me like six or seven years to get it. So once that happened, my best friend, this genius director and actor named Joe Faust, he had been waiting for it for years. He desperately wanted me to catch on, and I finally got it. And so once that happened, I looked back at all these auditions and said, oh, I see. So I'm never Gonna get cast as a cool leather jacket, sort of finger popping, daddy, that's not my bag. I'm gonna get cast as a laborer or a plumber or a bus driver or what have you, or a scary version of those guys. Once I realized that, then my life kind of began. That was ground zero, where I said, okay, the tools that I have, who I am, what I grew up as, that's the most valuable thing in my toolbox. So let me now begin to build my professional career, my body of work, around that particular set of tools.
- [29:34]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
You and your friends founded the experimental company the Defiant Theater. And you've said that if you had started auditioning at big theaters before this work, you'd probably still be there. Was it when you developed the Defiant Theater that that realization about your country rube Persona first occurred to you?
- [29:57]
Nick Offerman
It was in those years, yes, because my best friend was one of our main directors, and so they would pick shows to do, and I built the scenery for this company like I had all the tools. I drove the truck. So in many ways, I was the dad of the company. And they would choose shows where I would say, oh, perfect. This role is perfect for me. And then I wouldn't get the part that cast somebody outside the company. And I would say, hey, man, what's the deal? And my best friend and roommate would say, you know, I'm gonna always have to cast the best actor for the show, and that's this other guy, because you're not that good yet. And I would say, well, I believe you. I. And, you know, the baby in me is selfishly mad about that, but I understand.
- [30:50]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
But at least there was the word yet there. That's. That's encouraging.
- [30:55]
Nick Offerman
It was. And. And it just, you know, like all things, it was a slowly accumulating awareness of what it took. And so I was really grateful. I would get supporting roles. And then finally, I did a good enough audition for this play called the Quarantine that Joe was directing, and I finally got the lead. And, you know, I was perfectly mediocre, but I was better than I had been. That's the beautiful thing about life. Maintaining the attitude of a student is that I'm still on the same journey. Hopefully, the next play I do, I'll be better than the last play I did until my faculties give out.
- [31:37]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
It was around this time that you became friends with Amy Poehler, but you didn't get involved with comedy until your mid-30s, when you started to work with Amy at her Upright Citizens Brigade theater in New York. Why did it take so long for you to realize your comic chops?
- [31:55]
Nick Offerman
Well, I. I love making people laugh. I mean, but I. When you study legitimate theater at, like, a drama school, basically comedy is simply one of the things you do. You. You are hoping to work at theaters that put on a season, so you're prepared to do Shakespeare or Chekhov or Sam Shepard or absurdist Pirandello or Pinter or. You name it, or musical theater or fado farces. Hopefully, in your toolbox, you are able to do anything that's on the season. And one of my favorite things to do was be funny and make people laugh. It's a weird specialization in modern thought, and nowhere is more specialized than Hollywood. If my big break was playing a tennis player in a movie, nobody then wants me to audition to play basketball because they say, no, no, no, you're the tennis guy. And so I met Amy when she was studying at the Improv Olympic in Second City in Chicago. And I didn't even understand what that meant. I had never been to an improv or sketch theater, and it sounded to me like she was saying she and her friends were making stuff up in a bar to make people laugh. And I was like, okay, have fun with that. I'm trying to perform works of literature. You know, like, I had some weird, snotty separation. And then years later, I was like, wait a second. You were on the path to snl? Son of a bitch. Like, you know, I had no idea. And so it was only years later that I realized the specialization of Hollywood's brain. It occurred to me that I was not getting auditions for comedy stuff, where I was like, oh, I specifically had to call Amy and say, hey, can I start doing stuff at your comedy theater, the Upright Citizens Brigade, so that the business will view me as someone who can be funny. So I did it. And within minutes, people casting directors were calling and saying, I didn't know you do comedy. And I was like, what? I just. I just do acting. I don't. Like, I do whatever. I can be a horrible bad guy or I can be an absolute clown. Sorry, I didn't realize I had to, like, let you guys know that. And then it's funny. Then my big break was Parks and Recreation. Then there was a period where I had to convince people that I could be dramatic. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.
- [34:42]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Nick Offerman from 2021 this episode is sponsored by Gilt, your partner in taxes. If you're a business owner, you probably know that tax season shouldn't be just a once a year scramble yet for so many of us, that's exactly what it feels like. A flurry of forms, emails and missed opportunities. Gilt is a modern tax planning and strategy solution for you and your business that takes a smarter approach, pairing real CPAs with AI to help you align your tax strategy to how your business grows. With gilt, your dedicated CPA team reviews your strategy every quarter so you can optimize things like entity elections, retirement contributions, and hidden credits or deductions before it's too late. It's proactive, transparent, and built for growing businesses, from creative studios and design agencies to consultants and independent practitioners. Make taxes part of the business plan and schedule a call@joingt.com today to learn how your taxes can become a lever for growth.
- [35:52]
Debbie Millman
Amazon Pharmacy presents painful thought 20 more minutes to kill in the pharmacy before my prescription is ready. Maybe I'll grab some deeply discounted out.
- [36:04]
Josh Brolin
Of season Halloween candy. I never had a chocolate pumpkin with raisins before.
- [36:11]
Debbie Millman
Those were raisins, right?
- [36:13]
Nick Offerman
Next time use Amazon Pharmacy. We deliver. And no, those were not raisins. Amazon Pharmacy Healthcare just got less painful. Carvana is so easy.
- [36:25]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Just a click and we've got ourselves a car. See so many cars.
- [36:29]
Claire Danes
That's a clicktastic inventory.
- [36:31]
Nick Offerman
And check out the financing options payments to fit our budget. I mean that's Clickonomics101 delivery to our door.
- [36:38]
Claire Danes
Just a hop, skip and a click away and bought.
- [36:42]
Kara Sedgwick
No better feeling than when everything just clicks. Buy your car today on.
- [36:50]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Delivery fees may apply. BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax. Kara Sedgwick joined me on Design Matters in 2023 to talk about her film Space Oddity, a movie starring her husband, Kevin Bacon. It was her debut as a theatrical director, but of course she'd already had a long career in front of the camera, which also started in her teens. Your parents divorced when you were four years old and your mom remarried an art dealer when you were six. And you've said that as a result, you became a keen observer of human nature. You'd watch people talk and study their eyebrows and their bod and felt a lot of responsibility for everyone you knew and how they felt that's a really big burden for a little girl to carry. How. How did you manage?
- [38:25]
Kara Sedgwick
How did I manage? I managed by thinking I had a lot of control. I think that's how I managed because I think that I felt so out of control and things felt so chaotic that I had to convince myself for my own survival that I could control things. And then occasionally you get these little, like, wins and you're like, I did control it. I can do it again. You know, it's like, it's sort of an okay thing to think when you're younger, but as you get older, you realize what a horrible burden that is. As I've grown, I've definitely grown out of that and realized that it was a burden. But at the time, I think it felt like a superpower.
- [39:06]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Yeah, I've read that. I've read quite a lot about how children that have been through traumatic experiences very young tend to become hyper aware in an effort both to control things as best as they can, but also to be prepared for catastrophic things that still might be coming.
- [39:25]
Kara Sedgwick
Absolutely.
- [39:26]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
I also understand that you were a serious tomboy. Instead of playing with dolls, you'd spend hours play acting. At one point, you were a ballet teacher dancing around your room. You said you were not a happy kid. Did you spend a lot of time alone aside from getting beaten up by your brothers?
- [39:42]
Kara Sedgwick
Yeah, I think I did spend a lot. I mean, I did spend a lot of time alone, for sure. Again, I think it was the 70s and 80s and I think that parents didn't really do what they do now, which is, you know, insist on family dinners and, you know, or just show up in a different, more present way. I think that my parents did better than their parents. But I think that, yeah, I had a lot of time alone. I also watched a ton of television. That was a real healing balm for me, which ultimately was actually a good thing for my work. But it was, it was, it was lonely. It was definitely wasn't a happy childhood, really, until 12, which sounds really young. But when I fell in love with acting, that was when things really shifted for me. And I had a. I had a dream, I had a goal, I had a passion. And that helped me a lot find connection within myself and others.
- [40:42]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
What made you decide to try out for that 8th grade production school production of Fiddler on the Roof?
- [40:50]
Kara Sedgwick
It's pretty funny, actually. That's actually a great question because I remember when I signed up to audition thinking, who do I think I am that I can play this character in this show or what makes me think that I can get up on a stage and make people look at me, you know, But I guess I must have, you know, had a little guardian angel or something, or there was something in me that was calling me to that. And I remember after I auditioned, my English teacher, who at the time did not think of much of me, I can tell you that right now, because I was a bit of a hippie actually, at 12, looked at me and said, oh, my God, you know, you sing like a bird. He said to me. And I remember thinking, is that good? Is that good thing?
- [41:43]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
So did Joni Mitchell, by the way.
- [41:47]
Kara Sedgwick
Yeah. So, yeah, my English teacher was the drama teacher, you know, as is often the case in these kinds of schools, you know, and, yeah, and I got this great part and I just. That was it. I mean, I was like, happy all the time, especially when I got to. And actually on the days that I didn't have rehearsal, I wasn't so happy, but the days that I did it was like, oh, my God, this is it. This is everything.
- [42:09]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Now, before you even tried out for the play, I read that you didn't think that you were talented in any way and that in fact you thought you were rather mediocre. Was that something that you were sort of self creating or was that something that you were told truly?
- [42:27]
Kara Sedgwick
My stepfather was a very exacting, serious man. He had what is still considered one of the greatest artistic eyes in the ever that there ever have been. You know, he.
- [42:41]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
He's a great art dealer.
- [42:43]
Kara Sedgwick
Great art dealer, yeah. He bought the first Jackson Pollocks, the first Rothko's, the first Jasper Johns, Rauschenbergs, Barnett Newman's. He was a. A serious connoisseur. And if he could spot it, you got it. And he was also highly intellectual. And I think that when we moved into his home at age 6, my dad, who had been like, everything you do is great, and hey, just we're all playing touch football and playing tag and you don't have to be special in any way. I just think you're the Pips because you're mine, you know, and because you're a kid and you're adorable and I love you, it became much more exacting and I felt criticized on a very profound level constantly. And so he was critical of all of us and probably himself, you know, now I can look back with like so much empathy, but all of a sudden when someone's looking at you like that, you start going, oh, well, I really am not really that special. Or worthwhile or anything, you know, and we weren't focused on. So that probably also had a lot to do with feeling like I wasn't interesting enough to be focused on. That all changed like so profoundly in almost like a really uncomfortable way. When I was 12 and I was in that place, suddenly my parents were like, oh my God, you've got this enormous talent. And all of a sudden their eyes were on me. And it was almost terrifying in a way.
- [44:22]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
I read something that I just was so moved by about your reaction to being on stage at that age. And you said, I felt like my soul had left my body and was dancing around the stage. What a profound experience to have in a lifetime.
- [44:40]
Kara Sedgwick
Oh God, it really was. It was.
- [44:43]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
And then you got your first gig as a player on the soap opera Another World. And I understand your mother had a close friend from college, a man named Philip Carlson who was a manager. And she said yes, you could audition. Cause she didn't think you'd get it. And then you got it. What was that like at 16 years old to be auditioning for a major television show?
- [45:06]
Kara Sedgwick
It was crazy. I mean, I wanted it desperately. I mean, you know, between 12 and 16 I had like decided this was definitely what I was gonna be doing with my life. And I had pursued it in the ways that I could pursue it. I went to acting camp and I studied at HB Studios and like I was taking it very seriously. But I didn't think about actually pursuing it professionally at that young age until this friend of my mother's was like, you know, how about you just audition for fun, quote unquote and see what happen to give you practice and auditioning. And I was like, yes. And my parents said it was okay. And so yeah, I auditioned and, and I felt in my element. I mean, I don't think I even felt scared. I think I was like, well, I got this, you know, and I did get this, you know, and then doing the actual show was, was amazing. I mean it was life changing and it was, you know, it's a very professional atmosphere. They're not, they're not going to cut you any slack because you're 16. And so a lot was expected of me and I was excited to live up to that.
- [46:12]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Your first on screen television appearance was on January 15, 1982. You played a 16 year old Julia Scherer, the troubled granddaughter of Liz Matthews, the soaps matriarch. What was the experience of becoming a professional actor like for you?
- [46:30]
Kara Sedgwick
I was so incredibly excited. I sat in the makeup Chair. I got my makeup done. You know, my first scene was just me in a phone booth. Booth calling my. My grandmother.
- [46:41]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Very dramatic. Yes.
- [46:42]
Debbie Millman
The coat.
- [46:43]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
The Krishnas.
- [46:45]
Kara Sedgwick
Yeah. A rap group called the Deep Six. And, you know, and then I had this giant close up, like, with a push in at the end. And I just. I mean, I remember when my. My parents bought, like, a dvr, Like a dv. Dv. Vhs.
- [47:00]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Vhs, yeah.
- [47:03]
Kara Sedgwick
Whatever. And they. They recorded it. And I was like, oh, my God, there I am. And I thought I looked pretty after, like, not thinking I was pretty at all. It was mind blowing, you know, and it was also weird, but just great. I mean, I really felt totally in my element. And they, you know, it was a very professional, funny situation there. And I would just live for scripts in my mailbox and, oh, my God. And look and see how many scenes I had and. Oh, my God, counting my words, you know, the whole thing.
- [47:38]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Kara Sedgwick in 2023. In 2024, Josh Brolin published his memoir, from under the Truck, about his rough and tumble childhood and an acting career that includes both indie films and his starring role in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. When I spoke with him in 2024, I asked him about his very first Hollywood film. You got your first movie role, a starring part in the 1985 Steven Spielberg story The Goonies. You were 17 years old. I just rewatched it, by the way. It still holds up. It still holds up. You stated that to prepare for the part, you were reading Stanislavski and you asked Steven Spielberg if the tunnel in the film was a metaphor for your mother's womb.
- [48:29]
Josh Brolin
I can remember it like it was yesterday. I remember his face being very patient and not nodding while I was talking. And then he looked down, and then he looked up and he said, you know what? Why don't you just say the words that are on the page? And I was like, okay, that's what I'll do. I want it to be good. I want it to be. I want it to be good. I was reading Stanislavski. I was reading Grotowski. I was reading, you know, Antonin Artau. I was reading about the Theater of Cruelty. I was. I was in it. I was in it. I just wanted to be better.
- [49:05]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
I think that's probably one of the themes of your whole life, if you want an outsider's perspective, now that I've read your memoir. Your next two movies were Thrashin in 1986 and Finish Line in 1989. And you didn't make another movie for another five years. And you said the problem back then was that you were a C minus actor who had no nuance, no depth, and no innate natural skill. You began to supplement your income as a landscape artist and then day trading. What made you decide to play the stock market?
- [49:41]
Josh Brolin
You know, I had met a friend, Brett Markinson, who's still a close friend, and I had met him. I did something called into the West. It was like a miniseries. It was a western miniseries. And I had done an episode of that. And they flew us to New York to promote it, and they were flying us back. And it was a friend of a friend, Skeet Ulrich, who introduced me to Brett Markinson. And we just laughed for six hours on the plane back. And I asked him what he did and he said, he trades stocks. And I said, I was always a math guy. I was always very good at math. I was always the guy who was actually looking for extra credit from the math teacher because I just enjoyed doing that. And he said, yeah, well, it's all about reading graphs. And then I just started asking question after question after question. And. And I liked him. And he liked talking, he liked teaching. So I wasn't making a lot of money. I was working once every 12 months, 14 months or something like that. I never was in a position for two decades to know while I was doing a job what the next job was going to be. You know, I always went this long span of time auditioning and seeing the normal people in the hallways and, you know, thank you for coming in, Josh. That was wonderful. Lie. And knowing that I wouldn't hear from them again, popping up from behind the couch and pretending like I have a gun with my thing and I'm in the Black Forest in Germany, whatever it is, you know what I mean? It's all so ridiculous and just shame spiraling my way through this career. And when I would finally get a job, it was great. But trading just brought, I don't know, it allowed me to utilize a part of my brain and. And find my way through this labyrinth of discipline that I really enjoyed. Because he said, any instinct that you have in trading is meaningless. I have a feeling this is going to happen. Should not exist in your vocabulary. Look at the graph. It's all practical. And once you really learn how to start reading the graphs, all you'll see is fear and greed. And you're playing off that. You're playing off momentum stocks. You're playing off the foundation of a company. You're not for the big win. You're Just looking for little breaths on an upward trajectory. And I did. And. And I got it. And I. I made a lot of money. And I would never do that today because I don't have the time, you know, And a bunch of young kids. I remember when I was trading, my older kids were. They'd be like, we have to go to school. Please, God, get in the car. And it be like, one more. I'll be right there. I'll be right there. I'll be right there.
- [52:18]
Nick Offerman
Yo.
- [52:20]
Josh Brolin
And it wasn't. It's not gambling. It was really a design, and I had a lot of fun doing it, you know, So I won more than I lost, and that was the point. And I was able to survive a little bit longer and still call myself.
- [52:33]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
An actor at that time. You described it being one when no one wanted to hire you. You were then cast as. And this is actually one of my favorite roles of yours, as the bisexual ATF agent in David O. Russell's brilliant, brilliant 1996 film Flirting with Disaster, which co starred Ben Stiller, Lily Tomlin. Oh, she's amazing in that film.
- [52:59]
Josh Brolin
Amazing.
- [53:00]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Patricia Arquette. Now, I read that you actually improvised the scene where you lick Patricia Arquette's armpit.
- [53:08]
Josh Brolin
Yeah, true. Yeah. That was just supposed to be a kiss. We filmed it. It was supposed to be a peck. And David O. Russell very smartly said, this is boring. It's not worth working. I said, what about, like, I don't know, what if I suck on her toe? Or what about something like that? And we're thinking about it. He said, I'm sucking her toe. I don't know. And then Patricia said, what about licking the armpit? And. And she had grown out her hair for that role. You know, it was more like a hippie mom. And I was like, yeah, I don't know about that idea. That's not a. And. And David goes, oh, that's great. So we did. It would have wet wipes on the side to wipe off my tongue. And then David says, I don't. The armpit hair is really getting in the way for me. So then we did it a third time with no armpit hair. And that was the one.
- [53:56]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Your role in that movie. I don't know. I feel like that's the movie where you became an actor. You were so good in that movie. You were unrecognizable in that movie.
- [54:08]
Josh Brolin
Thank you.
- [54:08]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
In so many ways.
- [54:10]
Josh Brolin
You know, I had done a lot of theater before that with Anthony Zerby, and I felt like I had done Roles like that in the past, I had just never. I was still stuck, I think, in people's minds in a certain way. You know, I. I was a. It was a jock or they didn't know what to do with me or that, you know. So Miramax did not want me to do that film. They actively tried to get David to get somebody else to do this. Because I think at that point, what was I, 27? My mom had just passed during the rehearsals of that film. And I just think I was a guy in their minds that should have hit and didn't. So I was like damaged goods. I was rotting fruit. I think that role was like Mark Wong or something. I wasn't even right for the role the way it was written. Wong was not me. But I came in and I auditioned. They let me audition. I kind of improvised through some things. And he really liked me, so he forced just me down their throats. And then I ended up being like a Miramax guy after that. And he used me for several roles until I turned down a role. And then I was blacklisted for 10 years.
- [55:21]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
At that point, did you feel like your acting had improved? Because I forgot that you were in that movie. I forgot that it was you in that movie. It was such a departure from all of your previous roles. When I was looking at your filmography, I'm like, oh, my God, he's in one of my favorite movies. And I didn't even realize.
- [55:37]
Josh Brolin
I really love. I love that movie. I love that experience. And I was such a fish out of water because I had. Like I said, I had done roles like that in. On stage, and I was a Harley guy, and I was riding my Harley to work. And, you know, so there was some rebellious thing that I was playing out some idea of that. And then you see Alan Alda, Lily Tomlin, Richard Jenkins, Mary Tyler Moore, George Siegel, and I'm like, you've got to be kid. Like, I'm. I so don't belong here. I don't blame Miramax for wanting me. Why am I here? And we developed that character. He was just, you know, a bisexual ATF agent. And we did the tattoos, we did the armpit licking thing. We did the. We did the scene in the back of the car where we're talking about proper flow jobs and all that kind of stuff. And. And it was really fun because I felt like, was I a better actor? No. But I felt like it was more along the lines of my sensibilities. It was character. It was what interested me. What are people about what's behind the cosmetic presentation. It's like when I researched Wall street too. You know, when you take a bunch of billionaires out, they're going to present a certain type, get them drunk, and then you get to find out some real stuff. And I found out some real stuff. Stuff.
- [57:01]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Josh Brolin in 2024. You can hear my full interviews and hundreds of other interviews with some of the world's most creative people on our website, designmatters media.com or wherever you get your podcasts. We'll be back next week with another special episode called from the Many Years I've Been Doing Design Matters. Yes, this is the 20th century year we've been podcasting Design Matters and I'd like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference. We can make a difference, or we can do both. I'm Debbie Millman and I look forward to talking with you again soon.
- [57:41]
Debbie Millman
Design Matters is produced by the TED Audio Collective by Curtis Fox Productions. The interviews are usually recorded at the Masters in Branding program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest running branding program in the world. The Editor in Chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Weiland.
- [58:05]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
This episode is sponsored by Gilt, your partner in Taxes if you're a business owner, you probably know that tax season shouldn't be just a once a year scramble. Yet for so many of us, that's exactly what it feels like. A flurry of forms, emails and missed opportunities. GALT is a modern tax planning and strategy solution for you and your business that takes a smarter approach, pairing real CPAs with AI to help you align your tax strategy to how your business grows. With Gilt, your dedicated CPA team reviews your strategy every quarter so you can optimize things like entity elections, retirement contributions and hidden credits or deductions before it's too late. Great. It's proactive, transparent and built for growing businesses. From creative studios and design agencies to consultants and independent practitioners, make taxes part of the business plan and schedule a call@joingt.com today to learn how your taxes can become a lever for growth. This holiday, Verizon is giving you incredible gifts and savings you'll enjoy all year. When you Switch, you'll get four new iPhone 617 Pros. No trade in needed. That's right, get four lines for just $25 a line and the amazing iPhone 17 Pro for everyone.
- [59:26]
Debbie Millman
Save big this holiday.
- [59:27]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Visit Verizon today. 20 monthly promo credits applied to account over 35 months with a new line on unlimited welcome in times of congestion. Unlimited 5G and 4G LTE may be temporarily slower than other traffic domestic data roaming at 2G speeds. Additional terms apply for phone offer. See verizon.com for details. If you're an H Vac technician and a call comes in, Grainger knows that you need a partner that helps you.
- [59:47]
Kara Sedgwick
Find the right product product fast and hassle free.
- [59:50]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
And you know that when the first problem of the day is a clanking.
- [59:53]
Kara Sedgwick
Blower motor, there's no need to break a sweat.
- [59:56]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
With Grainger's easy to use website and product details, you're confident you'll soon have everything humming right along. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [60:11]
Kara Sedgwick
Shipping, billing, admin, payroll, marketing. You're managing all the things, so why.
- [60:17]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Waste time sending important documents the old fashioned way?
- [60:20]
Kara Sedgwick
Mail and ship when you want how.
- [60:22]
Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
You want with stamps.com print postage on demand 247 and schedule pickups from your office or home. Save up to 90% with automated rate shopping.
- [60:31]
Kara Sedgwick
That's why over 1 million small businesses.
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Interviewer (Debbie Millman or host)
Trust stamps.com go to stamps.com and use code podcast to try stamps.com risk free for 60 days. Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water? Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it, even in cold butter. Yep. Chocolate ice cream? Sure thing. Barbecue sauce. Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's gotta be clean, it's gotta be Tide.