Design Matters 20th Anniversary: Conversations with Graphic Novelists

Podcast: Design Matters with Debbie Millman
Host: Debbie Millman (Design Matters Media)
Episode Date: August 25, 2025
Guests: Chris Ware, Alison Bechdel, Roz Chast, Seth, Lynda Barry (and brief mention of Adrian Tomine)

Overview

To commemorate the 20th anniversary of Design Matters, Debbie Millman curates a vibrant, insightful retrospective featuring highlights from past interviews with some of the most celebrated graphic novelists and cartoonists. The episode explores the evolution of comics into the serious art form of the graphic novel, the personal journeys of these creators, and the deeply human stories woven through their work. Through a series of candid, intimate excerpts, listeners gain rare insights into the creative minds that have shaped the medium—and the ways comics reflect, challenge, and comfort readers.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Meaning and Evolution of "Graphic Novel" (Chris Ware, 2012)

• Terminology & Perception

  • Chris Ware reflects on why he prefers "cartoonist" over "graphic novelist":
    • “I usually just say I’m a cartoonist because it seems to explain the most and it’s the least pretentious word… If I say I’m a graphic novelist, then it seems to be a little…” (05:21)
    • On "graphic novel" sounding like “a filthy book” – a joke he attributes to Dan Clowes.
  • Explores how terms like "comic book" have shifted and often poorly represent the actual medium (06:11).

• Childhood Dreams & Early Experiences

  • Shares a touching story about submitting pages to a comic book company as a child:
    • “I remember when I was around 11 years old, I submitted some pages to this Charlton comic book… if I could only have my own comic book, then I would be happy.” (07:16-07:38)

• Comics as Emotional Medium

  • Ware discusses the depth of emotion comics can convey, beyond humor:
    • “Comics can produce and communicate the same myriad of emotions that any other art form can.” (09:36)

2. Gender, Representation, and Personal History (Alison Bechdel, 2016)

• Drawing the World as She Saw It

  • Explains how she only drew male characters as a child because, “I grew up in the 60s when it was a man’s world… representations of women were just absurd. They were like housewives or secretaries, which didn’t interest me.” (10:59)
  • On the impact of gender roles within culture:
    • “To be a woman meant to be something other… like the Mickey Mouse versus Minnie Mouse. Mickey was just like the regular generic human Mouse and Minnie was Mickey, with all these appurtenances.” (11:39)
    • “There was some element of gender dysphoria at work… I’ve always… felt more male, like more masculine. Like I just am a masculine woman, I guess.” (11:46)

• Early Publication and Community

  • On how "Dykes to Watch Out For" began as a margin doodle in a letter and blossomed into a newspaper comic:
    • “There was this gay and lesbian subculture happening in the 80s that I was so excited by… I wanted to, like, not just be part of it, but to show it.” (14:06)
  • On the importance of visibility and “image deserts” before queer artists appeared in mainstream culture (14:39).

• Creative Doubt and Validation

  • Bechdel describes her urge for “forms of expression that no one was going to really notice,” and how comics allowed her a kind of anonymity—even from her parents:
    • “It was almost like I was seeking forms of expression that no one was going to really notice, but. Or judge specifically my parents.” (15:58)
  • Comics as a rejection of "elitist" art in favor of something “anti-elitist and populist… more like journalism and a way of being an artist without claiming to be an artist.” (16:46)

3. Comedy and Catharsis in Memoir (Roz Chast, 2016)

• From New Yorker Cartoons to Graphic Memoir

  • The difference between the punchy brevity of single-panel gags versus the narrative depth of a full-length memoir:
    • “With a memoir… there’s jokes in it, but it’s also the telling of a story. So not every second is joke, joke, joke. It would be exhausting and sort of pointless.” (17:43)

• Family Dynamics and Aging

  • Shares the bittersweet reality of moving away from her parents and the guilt/denial over not seeing them for years:
    • “I guess there was a lot of denial. Yikes. Yeah, kind of weird, I guess.” (19:00)
  • Caring for aging parents, complicated relationships, and difficult decisions—“the problems probably went far beyond my ability or inability to take care of them from the time they were… 85 on or 80 on…” (20:39)
  • The emotional impact of assisted living, “the place,” and coming to terms with mortality:
    • “It was very pretty, it was very nice. But it’s an institution. It’s a place.” (21:17)
  • On how her experience changed her perspective on aging:
    • “I’m more aware of old people I see on the street, you know, or on the subway... Do I look that bad? Do I look that old to you?” (22:29)

4. Art School, Alternative Comics, and Artistic Awakening (Seth, 2019)

• Art School Disillusionment and Discovery

  • “I went to art school because I didn’t know what to do after school...I thought I was drawing realism... then I looked at it and realized, yeah, I’m drawing in a complete cartoon style.” (27:31)
  • Dropping out, losing artistic direction, and regaining it through discovering underground/alternative comics:
    • “Comics had kind of fizzled for me. But when I discovered first the work of Robert Crumb and then the Hernandez brothers… I was suddenly, I was excited.” (30:27)
  • The revelation that comics could truly be art:
    • “Crumb showing me that comics could pretty well be anything you want, and then the Hernandez brothers being just a couple years older than me… I was like, this is speaking directly to me and my generation.” (30:32)

• Encouragement from Masters

  • Seth recalls writing a fan letter to Art Spiegelman, who responded with kindness and encouragement:
    • “A lot of people who do terrible work when they’re 21 are geniuses at 35. So just encourage them.” (31:37)

5. Comics as Emotional Anchor and Transitional Objects (Lynda Barry, 2019)

• Comics as Early Companions

  • How comics taught Barry to read, and became her clandestine toys in a troubled childhood:
    • “I became really attached to comics… it was the actual characters themselves.” (34:13)
    • Collaging comic characters in food magazine ads for play:
      • “I'd put little slits in them. And then I'd have, like, Snuffy Smith or Charlie Brown coming out of those slits... and I would laugh my ass off.” (34:13)

• Comics as Surrogate Family & Transitional Objects

  • The daily Family Circus strip represented her “wished for family”—stable, loving, unlike her own:
    • “What I loved about them is they were… easy to hide. You could hide little paper things.” (34:33)
    • “Family Circus was your wished for family.” (35:07)
  • On the magic of fictional characters:
    • “I think it’s astonishing that no one teaches little kids how to become attached to the characters they need. Nobody teaches us how to do that... We have a natural ability to love characters…” (35:07)
    • “Where is Scrooge?... He was here before you were born. Scrooge is going to be here after you die. Where is Scrooge?” (35:58)
  • Meeting Jeff Keane and the emotional impact:
    • “When I met Jeff Keane... I did—I burst into tears. And it wasn’t beautiful at all. It was like snot and shaking the jack dial and me coming toward him and him backing away because... what’s going on here?... I was on the other side of that circle, right? How the hell can that happen? And then I realized it happened because I drew a picture. It’s crazy. It’s so much better than I thought it would be. Life is so much better than I thought it would be.” (38:21)

6. Process and Self-Protection from Audience Pressure (Adrian Tomine, 2024)

• Evolution from Private Creation to Public Work

  • On receiving acclaim but maintaining self-doubt:
    • [On Zadie Smith's praise] “Well, Zadie Smith didn’t say they were good ideas. She just said that there was… a quantity.” (39:13)
  • Letting go of audience voices to regain a sense of experimentation:
    • “I would be thinking about, you know, what’s the comics journal going to say about this? Or the people who write me letters?... I was feeling a level of self-consciousness that was starting to feel inhibiting… corrosive…” (39:57-41:31)

• Artistic Experimentation and Rediscovery

  • Deliberately using cheap materials and unfamiliar methods to reconnect with playful creation:
    • “I decided… I’m going to walk up the block to Rite Aid, and whatever art supplies I can buy there off the shelf, I’m going to use that to make this next story... it was just so simple. And the fact that the materials were cheap also made a big difference... I was able to funnel all that obsession into the content, into the story itself.” (42:15, 44:41)
  • Ambiguity and the power of what's left unsaid:
    • “You are very deliberate about what to leave out… that helps to create a specific kind of tone and feeling in your work.” (41:31-42:15)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 05:21 | Chris Ware | “I usually just say I’m a cartoonist because it seems to explain the most and it’s the least pretentious word…” | | 07:16 | Chris Ware | “If I could only have my own comic book, then I would be happy.” | | 10:59 | Alison Bechdel | “I grew up in the 60s when it was a man’s world… the guys were doing the stuff that interested me.” | | 11:39 | Alison Bechdel | “Mickey was just like the regular generic human Mouse and Minnie was Mickey, with all these appurtenances.” | | 14:06 | Alison Bechdel | "There was this gay and lesbian subculture happening in the 80s that I was so excited by… I wanted to, like, not just be part of it, but to show it.” | | 15:58 | Alison Bechdel | “It was almost like I was seeking forms of expression that no one was going to really notice, but. Or judge specifically my parents.” | | 17:43 | Roz Chast | “With a memoir… there’s jokes in it, but it’s also the telling of a story. So not every second is joke, joke, joke.” | | 20:39 | Roz Chast | “...the problems probably went far beyond my ability or inability to take care of them…” | | 27:31 | Seth | “I went to art school because I didn’t know what to do after school... then I looked at it and realized, yeah, I’m drawing in a complete cartoon style.” | | 30:32 | Seth | “Crumb showing me that comics could pretty well be anything you want… I was suddenly, I was excited.” | | 34:13 | Lynda Barry | “I became really attached to comics… it was the actual characters themselves.” | | 35:07 | Lynda Barry | “Family Circus was your wished for family.” | | 35:58 | Lynda Barry | “We have a natural ability to love characters…” | | 38:21 | Lynda Barry | “I was on the other side of that circle, right? How the hell can that happen? And then I realized it happened because I drew a picture...” | | 39:13 | Adrian Tomine | “Well, Zadie Smith didn’t say they were good ideas. She just said that there was… a quantity.” | | 39:57 | Adrian Tomine | “I would be thinking about, you know, what’s the comics journal going to say about this?...” | | 44:41 | Adrian Tomine | “I decided… whatever art supplies I can buy there off the shelf, I’m going to use that to make this next story.” |

Segment Timestamps

• [05:21-09:54] Chris Ware: Cartoonist vs. Graphic Novelist, childhood dreams, emotion in comics
• [10:59-16:46] Alison Bechdel: Gender, early cartooning, DIY syndication, identity
• [17:43-23:18] Roz Chast: Comedy in memoir, family care, aging, catharsis vs. memory
• [27:19-32:25] Seth: Art school disillusionment, alternative comics, encouragement from Art Spiegelman
• [32:50-38:21] Lynda Barry: Comics as survival tool and surrogate family, the enduring magic of characters
• [39:13-45:42] Adrian Tomine: Navigating audience expectations, process experimentation, creative renewal

Tone & Takeaways

The conversations are candid, often poignant, and sometimes wry—mirroring the complexity and emotional honesty of the guests’ work. Guests reflect on personal vulnerability, outsider narratives, activism through art, and the way comics forge both private refuge and community understanding. Millman's warmth and sharp questioning create a sense of intimacy throughout, culminating in a celebration of the power and evolution of the graphic narrative.

For more, visit DesignMattersMedia.com to explore the full-length conversations with each guest and dive deeper into two decades of stories about the creativity behind the world’s most influential artists, writers, and designers.