David Lee Roth (2:02)

And now a next level moment from AT and T Business.

Interviewer/Producer (2:04)

Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment.

David Lee Roth (2:06)

Of pillows and they need to be.

Interviewer/Producer (2:07)

There in time for International Sleep Day. You've got at and T5G so you're fully confident, but the vendor isn't responding.

David Lee Roth (2:13)

And International Sleep Day is tomorrow.

Interviewer/Producer (2:16)

Luckily, AT&T5G lets you deal with any issues with ease, so the pillows will get delivered and everyone can sleep soundly, especially you. AT&T5G requires a compatible plan and device.

David Lee Roth (2:25)

Coverage not available everywhere. Learn more@att.com 5G Network.

Interviewer/Producer (2:32)

It'S fall at Whole Foods Market with so many ways to save. Gather friends and family around the table or fire pit with delicious finds from 365 Brand at Great Everyday prices. Fill your pantry with organic pasta and robust sauces and your freezer with wild caught breaded fish sticks and appetizers like the Quiche Trio and breaded calamari. Want more savings? See yellow sale signs throughout the store. Shop low prices at Whole Foods Market. In store or online states that I interview some of the most creative people in the world. Twenty years ago, in the early days of the podcast, those creative people were nearly exclusively designers. Eventually, artists and novelists came into the mix, along with filmmakers and playwrights and poets. But musicians came relatively late to design matters. Now I try to get at least a few musicians on the podcast every year to talk about their career and their mysterious craft. And if we're lucky, to play a tune or two. One of the first musicians I had on back in 2018 was the guitarist phenomenon Khaki King. And that's her, by the way, playing the theme music. Did you ever question your ability?

Khaki King (3:59)

No.

Interviewer/Producer (4:01)

Have you ever?

Amy Ray (4:02)

No.

Khaki King (4:04)

I mean, I think that I could always have. I always knew that I was good at guitar in a way that a lot of people weren't. I didn't let it go to my head, but I knew and. But I think what distinguished me and what I wanted to focus on more than anything was the writing. The playing is technical, like it can be taught, it can be practiced. The writing is very important. And ultimately developing my own voice as a writer in an instrumental context, that's the hardest thing to do. So I think that maybe the technical prowess. I knew that I was, you know, a hot shit player. But the writing part didn't hit me till later where I thought, okay, I really, I really sound like me. Even though it's just one guitar playing.

Interviewer/Producer (4:47)

You'Ve said that the six string guitar is your absolute truth. That for you, the guitar is infinitely interesting. You know that you'll never master it and you'll always be challenged. While there are those who would argue that you have mastered it, what do you consider to be mastery? What is mastery?

Khaki King (5:06)

There just is none. I mean, there's so many routes that you can go with this instrument. There's so many paths it can take you down. I don't. I think that when people say things, I think that probably, probably the worst thing that was happening to me as a young person was that the, the things that you read, the quotes, the.

Interviewer/Producer (5:24)

Rolling Stone calling you, putting you on the list of the new guitar gods.

Khaki King (5:27)

Yeah, the accolade. I mean, like, that's ridiculous. That's just a. That's just insane. Bad copy. It's just.

Interviewer/Producer (5:33)

Why? Why do you think that?

Khaki King (5:34)

Because I think that it limits the scope of other people doing. Doing something on the guitar by saying, here's the top 10 and everything else is junk.

Amy Ray (5:43)

Or.

Khaki King (5:43)

I mean, the implications are really bad. And the implication that you know a genre under herself, blah, blah, blah. I mean, it's just that it's like you've hit the ceiling and there's nowher. And for me, there is an infinite world of possibility on this instrument. I've played it forever. I know the hyperbole was just upsetting because it wasn't sort of measured with something like, and she's working hard to do more good work.

Amy Ray (6:11)

Yeah.

Interviewer/Producer (6:11)

I think the most ridiculous thing I read was somebody referred to you as Bootsy Collins meets Van Halen.

Khaki King (6:16)

Like, what the hell is that? Can you imagine Bootsy Collins and Van Halen in a band together? Like, that would sound like just garbage.

Interviewer/Producer (6:22)

Or a mash up.

Khaki King (6:23)

You know, a mashup would be fun. But if those two assholes tried to make a band together, can you.

David Lee Roth (6:28)

It's just.

Khaki King (6:28)

Yes, it's nonsense. So I didn't know how to really process that other than to ignore it.

Interviewer/Producer (6:34)

You have likened touring with just you and an acoustic guitar as almost a martial arts like challenge. And you talked a little bit just a few moments ago about the resilience needed for being an opening act, but you've said that holding the audience's attention for 90 minutes with that format is the hardest thing you've ever done.

Khaki King (6:55)

I'll rephrase that and say it is when I am at my best, when I am taking on the biggest challenge that I can and making it work. And when it works, it is. I can't come up with anything more difficult and more satisfying.

Interviewer/Producer (7:12)

You had real success with your first two solo acoustic efforts, but after those two albums, you decided to mix things up a bit for your third album, Until We Felt Red, which included more musicians playing on the record in addition to you singing. When I first became aware of your work, you were doing the solo acoustic work. So when this album came out, I was astonished.

Emily Saliers (7:35)

Were you surprised?

Lucy Wainwright Roche (7:35)

Were you so mad?

Interviewer/Producer (7:36)

No, I actually really liked it very much. But I was surprised because when you weren't singing in your first two, I thought, well, maybe she has a bad voice.

Khaki King (7:45)

You're actually a fan.

Interviewer/Producer (7:47)

Yeah, I am.

Khaki King (7:47)

Oh, my God, this is so cool.

Interviewer/Producer (7:49)

I saw you probably at the Knitting Factory, because I don't remember where I saw You. But I saw you in 2004. No shit. For absolute sure, yeah.

Khaki King (7:59)

Was it just me?

Interviewer/Producer (8:00)

Yeah, just you. You had dark brown long hair. Yeah, yeah. And you're a baby. I was like, how does this woman do this? It's crazy. It's crazy. Will you play us a song right now? Play us a song? Yeah, play us a song for him until we felt red.

Khaki King (8:12)

Oh, God. Well, you know the song I have to play.

Interviewer/Producer (8:14)

Okay.

Khaki King (8:14)

This is a song called Jessica. It was written about a camp counselor. She had a thing for me. I didn't really know what to do with that, but I had a thingish for her and I wrote this song.

Backup Singer or Vocalist (8:52)

Jessica.

Khaki King (8:55)

Said she'd wait for me. I'd be 18 when she is turning 23.

Backup Singer or Vocalist (9:19)

Decorate her room with greeting cards.

Khaki King (9:30)

They burn up when she. She turns the light on in the.

Amy Ray (9:39)

Dark.

Interviewer/Producer (10:13)

Trying.

Backup Singer or Vocalist (10:16)

To remember love that never.

David Lee Roth (10:29)

Really was.

Khaki King (10:39)

When the milk tasted like perfume. You had been drinking from the carton and I knew.

David Lee Roth (10:58)

Sam.

Interviewer/Producer (11:34)

Thank you. You're welcome. That was beautiful. I can't really articulate how magical it is to be in a little recording booth about three feet away from such talent. That was Khaki King in 2018. Khaki King actually mentioned the band Van Halen. A year later, in 2019, I had the opportunity to interview David Lee Roth. I never imagined that I'd ever interview Van Halen's lead singer, but there we were in our little podcast booth, and David Lee was really fired up. And he said some things about growing up. I'm still thinking about six years later. When did you first realize that you had a talent for singing?

David Lee Roth (12:22)

Well, we're making a wild assumption.

Interviewer/Producer (12:27)

No, David Lee, we're really not.

David Lee Roth (12:30)

Your Honor, that's an assumption. We're really not basis.

Interviewer/Producer (12:35)

Yeah, yeah, sorry. I'm not.

David Lee Roth (12:37)

I'm not falling for that one entirely a subjective comment.

Interviewer/Producer (12:41)

No, no, it isn't.

David Lee Roth (12:42)

This man has a voice that sounds like water on a sick cat. No.

Interviewer/Producer (12:47)

No, it doesn't.

David Lee Roth (12:47)

He's Mutiny on the High Seas. He should have been a. I've heard.

Interviewer/Producer (12:51)

You sing a cappella, sir. You have a voice. You've got the pipes, all of the.

David Lee Roth (12:55)

People, all of the jobs, all of these experiences are in my voice, okay? You're never completely there. You're always a work in progress. You're either going up the mountain or down the mountain. The top is about as big as this little space here. It's usually fucking freezing. I've been up some high mountains. Okay? Everybody's waiting. Well, you get the fucking camera ready. And then I forgot the flag. A lot goes on up at those tiny little summits. And then it's down, down, down. All your time is ascending and then going back down the mountain. You follow?

Interviewer/Producer (13:37)

I do.

David Lee Roth (13:37)

Your time at the top's almost insignificant. You're freezing. You hold up the flag.

Interviewer/Producer (13:42)

Fuck.

David Lee Roth (13:42)

Hurry up, Ray. Stuff that shit back down there. Get your glove back on as fast as you can and vacate. So it's all in the planning. It's all in the doing. I never assumed that I was great, but I have always assumed that I could make you feel great. I can make you feel young and skinny from 800 yards out. Two choruses. Give me a few moves. Okay, we're going to engage, we're going to talk. Because my instrument is exactly what we're using right now. Now, I haven't started to work yet. I'm legitimately answering questions. I could reverse this quickly, young lady.

Interviewer/Producer (14:22)

I'm sure you could.

David Lee Roth (14:23)

I'll make you feel so desirable and young and it. When I'm gonna have a drink.

Debbie Millman (14:31)

That.

David Lee Roth (14:31)

One cigarette a year is right now time. I'll buy you that drink.

Interviewer/Producer (14:35)

When did you realize. When did you first realize you had a talent for singing?

David Lee Roth (14:39)

I never decided I had a talent.

Interviewer/Producer (14:42)

But you started taking singing.

David Lee Roth (14:43)

I loved it.

Interviewer/Producer (14:44)

You just loved it.

David Lee Roth (14:45)

I loved it from the time I was seven. Okay. And it was my first school play. I was in third grade. And again, scruff of the neck, it was okay. This teacher's gonna help you learn the libretto. This teacher's different for the dancing. Now you gotta go get measured for the costume. Now is dress rehearsal. It was codified in Boston, Massachusetts. Brookline, Massachusetts.

Interviewer/Producer (15:11)

Do you remember what play it was?

David Lee Roth (15:13)

Well, it was about. I don't remember the title, but there were different facings of book. Wizard of Oz, Alice in Wonderland, etc. And I was Mr. Bookworm. I still have the glasses mom made for me. Mortar board, etc. Shall I sing it to you soulfully? Because if I sing it like a little kid.

Interviewer/Producer (15:32)

No, sing it soulfully.

David Lee Roth (15:33)

I'll update it a little bit, please. There. My name is Mr. Bookworm. I hope you likes to read. Hey, did you pay to get in here? And I would just go from book to book and open up and wizard of Oz characters come out and whatnot. Beyond that, I didn't learn to sing from happy and celebrative and whatnot. I don't sing to celebrate. Never did you give me two minutes and I'll share with you where I really learned to sing and where the code comes from, because I rarely ever talk about it. Fellow named Salo Blumenthal. I was in fourth grade and we were studying for bar mitzvah, all right?

Interviewer/Producer (16:19)

And not a lot of people know you're Jewish.

David Lee Roth (16:21)

It's the middle name because it's Indiana, you know. And Blumenthal would walk in and he carried the weight of the world on his shoulders. He was as wide as he was tall, and he wasn't very tall. And we would be sitting here, we were wiseacres. This is, you know, the 60s, the hippies. It's, you know, flower power and Grateful dad in the doors and bring on through to the other side. It doesn't sound like bar mitzvah to mos nears and Sailor. Blumenthal would walk in and he'd always do the same walk. He would take his old sports coat, cheap jacket off and take it off, and he'd roll up his right sleeve first. There's nothing there. And then he'd roll up his left sleeve and he'd lock eyes with you, and he'd see the number tattooed on the inside of his forearm, which was his camp number. And then he'd roll his other arm up like that and look up to see if you were still looking. If you were new in the class. He'd look to see because that was his orchestra number, and he would tell his story. Inevitably, the newbies in class would ask, what are those numbers? He'd say, well, this was for Birkenau, and this is from so and so. And this is my orchestra number. And they'd say, were you. You know, what did you do in the. He said, I sang. Inevitably, somebody like a Ricky Wiese sitting behind me or one of the Weisman brothers would go, what happened if you didn't sing good? And he was very serious. He would lean forward, he'd go, you didn't sing good. You went up the chimneys. And more than once in the next five years, I would hear, Mr. Roth, if you cannot find it in yourself to sing for those who did sing so you don't go up the chimneys. And I think of that every time I sing, every time I write, every time I dance. It is so compelling. Let's take away all the earn the money and support yourself. My latest review from somebodysomebody.com. that is the most deterministic, compelling thing that you could possibly tell. A kid can't be more thankful. Wow, what a slap, a wake in the face for a kid who might have gone in a wrong direction. Keep in Mind. I got sent to my first work related environment when I was 13. My parents took me down to the police station Pasadena and had him tell me, you up again? You're going to a foster home. That's exactly what happened to me. Mom was very unforgiving.

Interviewer/Producer (19:05)

Now your sisters have said that there was a Bad Dave and a Good Dave, and the Bad Dave came from Sybil Roth.

David Lee Roth (19:13)

That means assertive.

Interviewer/Producer (19:14)

Okay.

David Lee Roth (19:15)

It means compelling. It means determined. Okay. When you say a bad person, are you talking about ethics and morals? I think you can determine that. I have fair share of that, absolutely. Today what qualifies as bad is very different. Very different.

Interviewer/Producer (19:35)

Yeah.

David Lee Roth (19:35)

Okay. You're all. We're always compelled now more than ever perhaps to determine what is a good credit. Somebody who supports and enhances. Or is it somebody who prefers the boo instead of the A? I like that boo instead of the yay. I know plenty of heavy metal bands that I can get on that plane at JFK and I can go move very creatively all the way to la. It's five hour trip if it's yay. Oh wow. It's so great. Really moving. Great critique. Observe the flaw. Do you follow Diane Arbus, the photographer? My whole career was based on the flaw. We all think we have it together and I'm paraphrasing, but we all have a flaw somewhere in the program. Those pants are just a little high water short. That belt buckle white with polyester. And that's what's observed and that's what is photographed. And therein lives the statement waba sabi. It's the flaw. It's when the beautiful old buildings around here start to fall apart and decay. There's a beauty in that. And if it's not in the thing itself, it's in the feeling of impermanence that you get. And it's quiet in there.

Interviewer/Producer (20:57)

That was David Lee Roth in 2019. Lucy Wainwright Roach is a singer songwriter with a beguiling and beautiful voice. I talked to her about coming from a family comprised of musical royalty. But what I really hoped for was getting her to sing. I spoke to her in February of 2020, which was lucky because we were able to record in our booth literally days before the pandemic hit and we all had to go on zoom. Lucy, you've been described as a master of musical melancholy. Would you say that that is accurate?

Lucy Wainwright Roche (21:37)

Well, I mean, that's a nice compliment because I really like sad music a lot and I. I don't think I'll ever have the feeling towards my Songs that I have towards songs that I love. Most of the songs I love are really sad.

Interviewer/Producer (21:56)

What are some of your favorites?

Lucy Wainwright Roche (21:59)

Oh, man. Well, there's a song called Holy by Chris Parika that I love so much. That's so sad. I just listened to it today. I can't listen to it without crying, and I really love it. Someone like Patty Griffin has a lot of really sad songs.

Interviewer/Producer (22:13)

Were you hoping for her? What was that like for you?

Lucy Wainwright Roche (22:16)

It was great. I'm a big fan and I don't know her well and I did a few shows with her last year. It was great. Her audience is great and I got to watch her show every night and she's so amazing and wonderful. So that was great. I also love songs that maybe don't sound that sad, but strike me as sad. Like the Paul Simon Crazy Love on the album Graceland. It's almost upbeat, but it breaks my heart, that song. And I really love to take upbeat sounding songs and turn them into what someone coined sad snoozers.

Interviewer/Producer (22:51)

Oh, I like Master of Musical Melancholy better. I saw that. I wasn't even gonna ask you about that. I don't think that there's a better example of you doing that than the song on your album that you released in 2013. The album is titled There's a Last Time For Everything, which features your really unusual and brilliant cover of the Swedish pop star Robyn's Call youl Girlfriend. The original is a CL club beat, heavy pop dance anthem. And the entire video of her doing it is of her dancing in a gymnasium.

Lucy Wainwright Roche (23:25)

It's such a great video.

Interviewer/Producer (23:27)

It's such a great video. But you perform it with a few chords on an acoustic guitar and a small choir. Was wondering if you would do that for us as well. But also tell us about why you decided to do that song. What is it about that song?

Lucy Wainwright Roche (23:44)

When I was making that record, Jordan, the producer, and I took a drive to see Nico Case in Atlanta. We drove from Nashville to Atlanta kind of in the middle of making the record, and we played that song and we both loved that song. And about halfway through the song, we sort of both looked at each other and thought, like, could we possibly. And we did. And I'm so glad we did. I love that song because it's so unusual, like what she's saying. The way that she's saying it is not something that I'd heard quite that way before.

Interviewer/Producer (24:17)

I just. I heard it described, or I read it described as a reverse Jolene, the song by Dolly Parton, which I think yeah, that's actually true.

Lucy Wainwright Roche (24:23)

Yeah, totally. That's true. Yeah, I just love it. And then when we tried to do it slowed down, which is my mode that I want to take every song into, it kind of really worked. In fact, a lot of people think it's my song. And then when I tell them that it's a dance song, they're just totally shocked. Because I think when you hear it slowed down, it doesn't seem like it would be a dance song at all. In fact, the other day somebody came up to me at the CD table and said, oh, my God. The other day I was in a store and suddenly this dance remix version of your song Call youl Girlfriend came on the radio and I was like, oh, my God, she's gotten so big that they're remixing her songs as dance song. And I was like, not to worry, I haven't gotten so big as that. That's the original.

Interviewer/Producer (25:13)

Sort of like Tom Steiner.

Lucy Wainwright Roche (25:17)

So I love that song. And I'll definitely do it for you if you want.

Interviewer/Producer (25:21)

Yes, please.

Backup Singer or Vocalist (25:32)

Call your girlfriend it's time you had the talk Give your reasons, say it's not her fault but you just met somebody new Tell her not to get upset Second guessing everything you said and.

David Lee Roth (26:10)

Done.

Backup Singer or Vocalist (26:14)

And then when she gets upset Tell her I never meant to hurt.

Amy Ray (26:20)

No.

Backup Singer or Vocalist (26:25)

And you tell her that the only way her heart will mend Is when she learns to love again and it won't make sense right now but you're still her friend and then you let her down easy Call your girlfriend, it's time you had the talk Give your reason, say it's not her fault but you just met somebody new.

Lucy Wainwright Roche (27:22)

Don'T.

Backup Singer or Vocalist (27:22)

You tell her how I give you something that you never even knew you missed don't you even try and explain how it's so different when we kiss and you tell her that the only way her heart will mend Is when she learns to love again and it won't make sense right now but you're still a friend and then you let her down easy Call your girlfriend.

Lucy Wainwright Roche (28:15)

It'S.

Backup Singer or Vocalist (28:15)

Time you had the talk Give your reasons, say it's not her fault but.

David Lee Roth (28:31)

You.

Backup Singer or Vocalist (28:34)

Just met somebody new and now it's gonna be me and you and you tell her that the only way her heart will mend Is when she learns to love again and it won't make sense right now but you're still a friend and then you let it down easy Call your girlfriend it's time you ever talk Give you reasons.

David Lee Roth (29:33)

Say.

Backup Singer or Vocalist (29:33)

It'S not her fault, but you just met somebody new. Call your girlfriend. It's time you had the talk.

Interviewer/Producer (30:02)

That was Lucy Wainwright Roach singing Call your girlfriend from 2020. Fall is here and it comes with all those seasonal traditions. We love apple picking, hosting dinner parties, getting the kids back into their school routines. But let's be honest, keeping up with a clean home while juggling everything else. That's where having the right support network becomes essential. Just like you have a trusted hairdresser or a reliable babysitter, having a Go to Home cleaner can be a game changer for your mental bandwidth and productivity. That's where homaglo comes in. A top rated home service platform that makes it incredibly easy to book trusted background checked cleaners in your area. Their online booking system lets you schedule cleanings as quickly as this week or plan ahead for next month. You can browse photos and reviews to find the right fit, and their Forever Clean membership saves you $30 per hour on future cleanings starting at just $19 an hour. Take home cleaning off your plate this fall by using Homaglow. Head to Homaglow.com DesignMatters to get your first three hours of cleaning for only $19. That's H O M E A G L O W.com DesignMatters hi, this is Sherrell Dorsey from the Ted Tech Podcast and today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile. So you're thinking about upgrading to the amazing new iPhone 17 Pro, the most powerful iPhone yet with 8 times optical zoom. But are you also thinking about the traffic on your way to the store or transferring all your data? Well, good news. When you order a new phone online with Boost Mobile, they'll send an expert to your home or work to deliver your brand new iPhone 17 Pro and get you all set up on Boost Mobile within minutes. No hassle. Visit boostmobile.com to get started. Delivery available for select devices purchased@boostmobile.com terms apply.

David Lee Roth (32:21)

Oh, the car from Carvana's here. Well, will you look at that. It's exactly what I ordered.

Debbie Millman (32:27)

Like precisely.

David Lee Roth (32:29)

It would be crazy if there were any catches.

Debbie Millman (32:32)

But there aren't, right? Right.

Amy Ray (32:35)

Because that's how car buying should be with Carvana. You get the car you want, choose delivery or pickup and a week to love it or return it.

Interviewer/Producer (32:42)

Buy your car today with with Carvana Deliver. Your pickup fees may apply. Limitations and exclusions may apply.

Amy Ray (32:48)

See our 7 day return policy@carvana.com this.

Interviewer/Producer (32:51)

Podcast is brought to you by Wise.

David Lee Roth (32:52)

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Interviewer/Producer (32:55)

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David Lee Roth (32:57)

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Interviewer/Producer (33:01)

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David Lee Roth (33:08)

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Interviewer/Producer (33:18)

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David Lee Roth (33:25)

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Interviewer/Producer (33:29)

The pandemic hit shortly after my interview with Lucie, and we had to start recording interviews via zoom. Fortunately, musicians are used to recording themselves, and many of them, like Michael Stipe, were happy to do so. And then send us the file. Michael Stipe was of course the lead singer of R.E.M. one of my favorite and personally formative bands of all time. Since the band retired, Michael has been engaged in all sorts of collaborations, including photography and writing projects and making books. You said that your greatest achievement has been deciding what you wanted to do at 15 and against all odds doing it. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what gave you the sense back then that it could be done.

Debbie Millman (34:24)

Delighted. And interesting that you talk about kids today using a process of negation to try to figure to out how who they are and how kind of sad and upsetting that is. My band, or my former band rem, we used a process of negation quite regularly to figure out what we did not want to be, not only as public figures, but as songwriters. The way that we dressed ourselves, the way we presented ourselves, the way we talked to the press, we knew all the embarrassing and fucked up tropes. So we used a process of negation to figure out how to not be those horrible idiot cliches. And I think we did a pretty good job of it over the course of 32 years. But going back to when I was 15, yeah, I mean it was unbelievably naive of me to think that when I read these articles about Lupon croxing as a 15 year old, I read them and what these people were saying over and over again were that we're not special, we're not particularly talented, we're normal people. Anybody can do this. Anybody can pick up a guitar, anybody can grab a microphone and start to sing. I took it quite literal when they said anyone can do this. I was like, okay, that's me. That's what I'm going to do. It was an insane teenage dream that became an even more insane adult reality. Being the singer of a band. I became the singer because I didn't know how to play an instrument. I didn't know I had a voice when I was 18 years old or 15 years old or 19 when, when I started REM, I didn't, I certainly didn't know I had this voice. I like my voice a lot and I. I think I've become a very good singer with a very distinct voice. But I didn't know that at that age. I just knew that that's what I wanted to do. But then learning that you have to not only have the audacity to, to present yourself publicly, but also that you have to have something behind that. There's got to be at least a modicum of talent. I didn't know you had to write songs, so I didn't know what a bass guitar was until we started our second album. I couldn't identify the bass guitar sounds from the guitar sounds. I didn't know that the one with four strings made all the low notes and the one with six strings made all the high notes. I mean, that's how naive I was about music. And you can hear it in the early stuff. I mean, it's quite. And they're, they're beautiful. I'm not disregarding those recordings at all. They are for some people, quite magical. But I hear and I acknowledge a band and within myself an artist learning how to not crawl publicly, learning how to be a toddler publicly, learning how to poop his diapers a few times. And then if we can carry this a little further, I finally take the training wheels off the bike and I'm actually a songwriter and a lyricist and now I find my. I wrote a song last night, Debbie. I'm so excited. I told you this crazy moment at a house party in London maybe 15 years ago with a bunch of friends dancing and this thing that came out of my mouth to a great friend of mine on the dance floor. And I always remembered this phrase. Well, it presented itself at 2 o' clock this morning with a song written on a moog synthesizer in 2018, pre pandemic that has been sitting around in the studio. And last night they came together and created this. What? I'm going to go in tonight and see if there's anything to it. But I woke up really excited that this insane phrase from 15 years ago London house party has found its way into a song written on a Moog in 2018. And in 2021, boom, here it is. So we'll see. Hopefully it'll wind up on what is, I'm certain, to be a solo record that's going to be coming out probably within the next year, hopefully.

Interviewer/Producer (38:04)

You stated that it took you the better part of your 20s to recognize that insecurities are actually a superpower and something that you could utilize to allow your better work to come forward. And you also realized that you didn't have to be snippy and cynical. And you've said that quote, cold ass bitch was a coat I put on to protect myself. And I realized I can take that coat off now, which I love. How did you come to that realization? How did you get to that point where you could throw off that coat?

Debbie Millman (38:36)

Yeah. Wow, that's. I mean, I can't believe that quote came out of my mouth, but it did. Anyone, Anyone who knows the band from earlier days. I would come on stage wearing four or five layers of clothing and usually a hat and maybe some glasses. And as I got heated up during the performance, I would take them off. And by the end of the evening, by the end of the performance, I was down to a T shirt or, you know, down to my jeans. No, no short at all. I always felt the need to protect myself and to layer myself from the world at large. I'm a very. I was born a very shy person. I'm not anymore because I had to learn how to not be. But the part of that, Debbie, that I find interesting is that I was really moving on instinct. And instinct was telling me that the things that are embedded into me and a part of who I am, a very. The very part of my DNA that that allows that insecurity, allows that vulnerability. Part of it being queer, part of it being, you know, bullied, if you will, as a child, part of it being from a family that had this nomadic, peripatetic, crazy pick up and move every couple of years lifestyle, and having to really be fiercely independent or independent within a very tight family unit of two sisters and a mother and father. All of this created, I guess, an instinct that allowed me to, without acknowledging it and without having the language to describe it to myself, allowed me to use that insecurity and that vulnerability to create the Persona that became who I am. And that gets into a whole other philosophical or deeply psychological, I guess, arena that we don't need to go into. We create. We become who we want to become and then we. We create who we want to become and then we become them. But I Didn't have the language to recognize that until much, much later when, when I did, I had established myself enough that it didn't knock me backwards or throw me off my game. It simply allowed me to look at the earlier work and not disregard it so, so easily and to acknowledge, wow, I did do stuff that was incredibly ballsy and incredibly courageous. I just didn't see it as such. And I still don't think of myself. I still have, what is it, imposter syndrome. I always think that the next song or the next photo book is going to be the one where everyone realizes that I'm a big fake. And that, in its own regard, can be a great power, a superpower. I'm a little bit quoting Greta Thunberg, who referred to when she became a public figure through her. Through her activism and then was being mocked by the world's media. How embarrassing are we as Americans? But being mocked for her voice acknowledged publicly that her being on the spectrum, being autistic was what she regarded as a superpower. And I was like, whoa, hang on a second. Here's a teenage girl telling me that this thing that we've thought of my whole life is something that's a disability she regards as a superpower. I have those superpowers within my vulnerability and my insecurities. And I've actually employed those throughout my entire adult life and with the work that I've presented as a public figure, as a pop star, as a singer, songwriter, as an artist, as a photographer, etc, and wow, what a thank you, Greta Thunberg, for allowing me to see myself a little more clearly. I'm sometimes embarrassed that it feels like I start every sentence with the word I. I feel a little navel, gazy. But. But part of being a pop star allows you to not only acknowledge that the ego that it takes to get up on a stage and think that what you have to say or sing or present is valuable to someone beyond yourself, also comes hand in hand with the humility of stepping back and recognizing that if you start to believe your own myth, you're screwed. And the work that you do is vastly unimportant. You are really, really human. And that humanity, I think I'm just. This sounds insane to me coming out of my mouth. But that humanity, that humility combined with that ego is what I think that that friction can create beautiful work, whether it's in a writer, in people that performance artists and dancers, or in something as rigid as opera or ballet, or in something as free form as my idea, theoretically, of what punk rock means.

Interviewer/Producer (43:06)

That was Michael Stipe from 2022. Michael Stipe Co created R.E.M. in Athens, Georgia. And in 2023, I interviewed two more musicians from the Athens music scene, none other than Indigo Girls, Amy Ray and Emily Saliers. Amy, I read that when you first started singing together, you thought your head was going to explode and realized that Emily was your musical soulmate.

Amy Ray (43:36)

Yeah, I think I did write that. Debbie, you love that, don't you? You're, like, so big.

Interviewer/Producer (43:43)

I just. When I read and that. That you were inconsolable, I read that as well, that you were inconsolable.

Amy Ray (43:49)

I was like, this is it for me. You know, I found my path. I don't think Emily felt the same way, but that's the way it is. I mean, and I was a year younger, too, so I was very, like, in awe of the older person. And Emily disputes this, but she was very popular in high school. And maybe I have a romanticized vision, but she just. She disputes that, but there was a certain magnetism already. And so I was like, whoa. And the sound of harmony and someone that could just sing harmony to anything. It was a whole new thing for me because I'd been in church choir and chorus and, you know, my sister's all. And my dad sings and everything, but I. I hadn't experienced the effect of singing with someone in harmony, like, next to you, that's just a single person. It's a very different sound than a choir, you know, because in the choir, it's like you could open your mouth and nothing comes out. And you still can't. The choir can't tell. You know, Basically, when it's just you two, it's like this. You know, overtones are created and crazy things that feel so magical. So I think, for me, I was like, wow, this is it. This is what I want to do. This is the person I'm going to sing with, and I want to do it all the time. And I didn't care about making money. I just. I was like, I just want to do this. It wasn't about, like, fame or I wasn't thinking about the way you think now, because so things are so accessible with YouTube and, like, people that become sort of instantly famous. And at the time, we didn't have any of that. So I was just. All I could think about was, every day I want to do this. Like, that. That's. That was the important thing, right? Which I think is good, you know, because it. Look at where we are. I think it's Good to have that perspective of something that you just love. That was my response. You're accurate. I don't know where you get your info, but that's good.

Interviewer/Producer (45:41)

Emily, was it the same for you? I kind of got the sense as I was researching your histories together and separately, that it wasn't quite the same. Epiphany.

Amy Ray (45:51)

It's okay.

Emily Saliers (45:52)

No, not the way Amy describes it for her, but what it was, was the most fun thing I was doing. And we became really good friends in high school. I mean, we used to quote lyrics to each other. We loved the Last Time I Saw Richard by Joni Mitchell. And we did, remember Amy. We used to get so heavy into lyrics and.

Amy Ray (46:11)

Yeah. Sign them in our yearbooks.

Emily Saliers (46:13)

Sign them in our yearbooks. And so we had. We were like best friends at that point in high school. Very soul connected and. But just playing those songs together was fun. Like, we both picked songs that we liked to do, and then we were really encouraged by our AP English teacher, Mr. Lloyd Ellis. Lloyd. And so he set us up with, like, well, why don't you learn some songs and you can play for the class? And so. But I have never in my life, sort of Amy's. So she's so in touch, like, with what's going on, and she has a vision for things, and she always knew what to play next and kind of what to do. And, I mean, I'm not trying to be self deprecating, but I'm a little bit head in the clouds just trying to figure out what's going on around me. And so for me, it was just like, wow, this is really, really fun. And Amy really propelled us in terms of the next steps to take. But I also. I wanted to be an English teacher.

Interviewer/Producer (47:07)

I know. I want to talk about that.

Emily Saliers (47:09)

And then I was like, When I was 11, I was taking classical guitar, and my. I was just into a different kind of music, really, until I became more co. Rooted in the music that Amy was turning me on to. You know, and then when we start, like, instead of learning a song by the Beatles or Carole King or James Taylor, we would learn a song by Everything but the Girl, or maybe Lloyd Cole or something like that, you know, and she just opened my world. But I was never a visionary with what I wanted to do with the rest of my life, except this, you know, distant thing of being an English teacher. And then we went to different colleges at first, so it was like, okay, well, whatever happens, happens.

Interviewer/Producer (47:48)

After graduation from high school, Emily, you enrolled at Tulane University. You were an English major intending to go on to grad school and become a teacher. And Amy, you moved to Nashville a year later also to study English. I'm also an English major. I joke that I have, we have degrees in reading.

Amy Ray (48:06)

And.

Interviewer/Producer (48:06)

But you studied English and religion at Vanderbilt University. Neither were particularly good experiences for you. And you decided to come back and independently without realizing it, you both applied to, got into and then decided to go to Emory. What was happening that year that you both didn't enjoy where you were?

Amy Ray (48:29)

You know, Emily was a freshman at Tulane and I was a senior in high school. So I just remember going to see Emily and playing some together on Bourbon street and seemed like a pretty amazing environment. So I was psyched to go to college. And my sister had gone to Vanderbilt in Nashville too and she had worked at this cool record store and, and I was really, you know, looked up to my sister and when she was at Vandy she, you know, she lived in the philosophy dorm and everybody played Dungeons and Dragons and listened to cool music and I was like, that's where I want to go to school, you know. But I got up there and I got a job at that record store. It was called the Great Escape, you know, walking in my sister's footprints. And it had just shifted so quickly to this from the school that would have Black Flag come play a concert to like everything's all about sororities and fraternities and, and toned and like polite society and very kind of racist. And it was like the Reagan era was starting and I just was like it, I, you could either be like a completely like stoned out person and not be involved at all or you could be, or you had to be like completely engaged and all that stuff. And I just, I, I, I'm in between all that, you know, I'm like a very engaged person. I love student government, I love being an organizer and I love all that stuff. But it was so heavy handed in the sort of the elite society kind of moneyed way that there was a big division between, you know, the international students and the, the other students and the rich students and the poor students and sororities and non sororities. So I just, I had a girlfriend, I had fallen in love my senior year in high school. She was at uga. We were constantly having trouble. She didn't really want to be gay. I was like thoroughly gay and I was, but I was very self, I hated myself. I was so self loathing and I was so depressed and just like, I mean I hated myself. I wanted to Be anyone but who I was. But I'm also constantly tempted by all these fun things like working at the record store and playing music and playing racquetball and. And so it was like a weird combination of things and my head was spinning and I just couldn't. I couldn't make it work, you know? And I was like, I just gotta leave this place because there's too many. I mean, my favorite things were like, honestly, my religion classes were amazing. My English classes were amazing. I had a therapist that I discovered who helped me out of a really dark time. And I loved, loved, loved working at that record store so much. All that stuff was not enough to. To keep me even keeled. And I just. I was like, I gotta go home to Atlanta and just be around my family. Be in a scene where at least I feel like somewhat tethered to something, you know, to save me. So I did it, you know, and. And at that. Yeah. And Emily was. I'm not sure what. What her battle was, but then I found she was coming back to Emory too. And I was like, yes, we can continue doing our music. So it was a good thing in that way.

Interviewer/Producer (51:26)

What was the source of your depression at the time? I know that with your parents being so super conservative you've written about, and I'm only gonna use this word because this is the word that I read and found in my research that you said that your parents were destroyed by having three gay kids in one family. You had come out, your two sisters were also gay. And yeah, was that.

Amy Ray (51:51)

I mean, I hate to. It's so hard now because my dad's passed away. My mom is so amazing. And they were both. Even before my dad died eight years ago, he was just. He had come around to the place where you couldn't love gay people any more than they do. So it, it's amazing what happened. But they were destroyed in this way where we were so close and raised to be very community minded and generous and there were so many good values instilled in us. Yet this one thing was so in opposition to their faith and everything they believed in and they just couldn't picture it. And their friends rejected them in the church. It was a long, A very long road for them to get by. So, I mean, I felt like not only do. I mean, they were destroyed and like not happy for us, they were scared for what would happen to us. They were scared that they had done something wrong when they raised us because they were taught that this, what we are, was a perversion. So There was so much fear that it became anger. They were always a little bit left of the middle in other ways, you know, pro choice. And my dad was like a feminist and all that stuff. This is like the one thing that just so it just was a life shift for them that they couldn't picture right. And then they saw us as being damaged and they were afraid that they were the ones that did it. And I think they had to come around to realize that it's not damage, you know, it's just another existence that's beautiful as everything else, but that kind of society thing. And when you are, and then when you have self loathing yourself, it's, it's a recipe for a lot of terrible times and, and ways that just reiterate how you already feel. Yeah, you know, now it's, it's hard to talk about now because they're. Yeah, they're so great now, you know that. It's like I don't want them to ever feel bad about what we went through because they worked so hard to come out on the other side of it, you know, so it's, it's one of those things that's, it's a necessary conversation, but it's like, wow, you know, you can make it through this. I mean, and I'm lucky like that they did really for me, you know.

Interviewer/Producer (54:07)

Amy Ray and Emily Salyers from an interview in 2023. You can hear my full interviews and hundreds of other interviews with some of the world's most creative people on our website, designmattersmedia.com or wherever you love your podcasts. We'll be back next week with another special episode. Episode culled from the many years I've been podcasting Design Matters. Yes. This is the 20th year we've been making this show and I'd really like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference. We can make a difference or we can do both. I'm Debbie Millman and I look forward to talking with you again soon.

Debbie Millman (54:52)

Design Matters is produced by the TED Audio Collective by Kirk Curtis Fox Productions. The interviews are usually recorded at the Masters in Branding program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest running branding program in the world. The editor in chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Weiland.

Interviewer/Producer (55:17)

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Debbie Millman (55:19)

Got it from Verizon, the best 5G network in America.

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You look the same, but with this.

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Especially me.

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Amy Ray (57:02)

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