← Design Matters with Debbie Millman
Design Matters with Debbie Millman
20th Anniversary celebration with legendary artists Bisa Butler, Deborah Kass, Marilyn Minter, Amy Sherald, and Ai Weiwei
00:46:24
Loading summary
Transcript192 lines
- [00:01]
Debbie Millman
Hello there. This is Debbie Millman and I'm so excited to share something wonderful with you. This month I am featured on Apple Podcasts as one of their creators. We love this is a big time honor for me and I'm so thrilled in the ways that Apple has acknowledged the 20 years I've been podcasting Design Matters. A big thank you to all of my friends at Apple Podcasts for their generosity and support for the last two decades.
- [00:32]
Deborah Kass
In the mid-70s, what was happening in the art world was thrilling.
- [00:38]
Amy Sherald
I had like three people start crying while they were looking at the work and I was like, what is wrong with y'?
- [00:42]
Debbie Millman
All?
- [00:42]
Ai Weiwei
Writing is difficult, but the to do art is just too easy for me to do it.
- [00:51]
Marilyn Minter
From the TED Audio Collective, this is.
- [00:53]
Ai Weiwei
Design Matters with Debbie Noman.
- [00:58]
Marilyn Minter
On Design Matters, Debbie talks with some of the most creative people in the world about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they're thinking about and working on. On this episode, in celebration of the 20th anniversary of design Matters, we'll hear from some of the many visual artists that Debbie has interviewed over the years.
- [01:17]
Bisa Butler
I'm using pieces of fabric to describe her, not just because they're pretty.
- [01:22]
Marilyn Minter
I like porn. It turned me.
- [01:31]
Debbie Millman
Save up to 30% on fall meal Essentials during the Spice Up Fall event now at Whole Foods Market with sales on organic honeycrisp apples and winter squash. Grab fresh and mild swordfish steaks for a cozy pan seared mane or make a hearty stew starring no antibiotics ever. Short ribs for something sweet. Indulge in limited time pumpkin spice treats from the bakery and find even more in the aisles. Spice Up Fall and Save at Whole Foods Market in store and online.
- [02:02]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Did you know adults 60+ lose more than $60 billion each year to financial exploitation? Greenlight's new Family Shield plan empowers you to monitor your accounts for suspicious activity, protect yourself with up to $1 million identity theft coverage and reassure loved ones that you're safe with location sharing and place alerts. Get peace of mind today@greenlight.com protect. That's greenlight.com protect in today's fast changing digital world, proving your company is trustworthy isn't just important for growth, it's essential. That's why Vanta is here. Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry leading AI, automation and continuous monitoring. So whether you're a startup tackling your first SoC2 or ISO 27001 or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier and more scalable. Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to 5 times F so you can win bigger deals sooner. The results According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slash over $500,000 a year in costs and are three times more productive. Establishing trust isn't optional. Vanta makes it automatic. 10,000 global companies trust Vanta, including Atlassian, Quora, Chili Piper and factory. Visit vanta.com tedaudio to sign up for a free demo today. That's V A N T a dot com tedaudio does it ever feel like.
- [03:28]
Deborah Kass
You'Re a marketing professional just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers, a network of 130 million of them. In fact, you can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills.
- [03:42]
Marilyn Minter
And Did I say job title?
- [03:44]
Deborah Kass
See how you can avoid the void.
- [03:46]
Debbie Millman
And reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads.
- [03:48]
Deborah Kass
Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started at LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply.
- [04:01]
Debbie Millman
At the top of the podcast we always say that I talk with creative people about how they got to be who they are, and that is really what I try to do. I try to get into the formative events of my guests lives, their origin stories with the many artists I've interviewed over the past 20 years. The Conversation almost inevitably turns to how they started making the art that they later became known for, their subject matter and their style. And every story is as different as the artists themselves are different from each other. On this episode, we're going to hear some excerpts of the origin stories of some of those artists. Deborah Kass is a multimedia artist who combines a pop sensibility with politics, feminism, and art history. I interviewed her in 2017 and as with a lot of my guests, I wanted to hear about her education. While you were at Carnegie, you also applied and were accepted to the Whitney Museum's Independent Study Program, which was only about 4 to 5 years old at the time. I actually applied and didn't get in. So what was it like going there?
- [05:15]
Deborah Kass
My father had just died, so I was in a completely altered state because it was unexpected. Amy was only 47, so it was a very weird time and I'm not sure I could describe much other than I was kind of on another planet. I was living in the studio there. I'd every now and then go home. It was a real shock when my father Died, so. But it was fun. I mean, it was fun to be with really ambitious people my age.
- [05:53]
Debbie Millman
It was at this time that you made one of your first paintings. Your first, I guess. Would it be fair to call it appropriated paintings?
- [06:01]
Deborah Kass
Yeah, I guess. After Applesauce, my appropriation of Charles Schulz, this would be my next major appropriation.
- [06:09]
Debbie Millman
So Ophelia's Death after Delacroix. Can you describe it for our listeners?
- [06:13]
Deborah Kass
Yeah, it's actually a very large rendition of a small sketch, oil sketch by Delacroix called Ophelia's Death. I think his was like, you know, 8 by 10 inches. You know, a very small little thing. And mine was maybe five feet by seven.
- [06:34]
Debbie Millman
Six by eight.
- [06:35]
Deborah Kass
Oh, six by eight. Even bigger. And it was a redo of this painting. And, you know, I just repainted it.
- [06:44]
Debbie Millman
Deb, you've written about how David Diao, the Chinese American artist and your teacher, saw the show of student work at the Whitney and was so freaked out about your painting that he literally hit his head against the wall. Why was he so freaked out about your work?
- [07:01]
Deborah Kass
I don't know. And, you know, I was really young. I was 20. I didn't know what it meant. Listen, I still don't know what it means when people react to my work, but I certainly didn't understand what it meant then. And I never asked him. I wouldn't have had the nerve to ask him.
- [07:16]
Debbie Millman
Your time at school was rather interesting, I guess is the word I could put it. And I found an interview wherein you described your time there as total chaos and actually said this. This is a quote. This is how crazy it was. Here's an actual assignment. Our teacher got video cameras and said, we're going to hitchhike to Lexington. One of our coolest teachers, the one who had studied with Caprow, was then in Lexington. We were stone. We were tripping. We had video cameras. We went from Pittsburgh to Lexington with our thumbs out on the road. A lot of those students would transfer to Cal Arts. A few people went to Denmark to do primal therapy. This was undergraduate school. I did a ton of acid, smoked a lot of pot. I was such a bad girl. And, oh, I had the best time.
- [08:06]
Deborah Kass
That is all true. It really was. I was out there and I had a ball.
- [08:14]
Debbie Millman
It sounds like it was, and I.
- [08:16]
Deborah Kass
Will, kind of perfect, I have to say. And I was madly in love. I was madly in love. So I feel like I had the world's best first love affair. The world's. Maybe not best art education, but for you know, somebody dying to break out of Long island. And being a nice Jewish girl, I did it in spades. And I had a ball. And it was something else.
- [08:41]
Debbie Millman
You started your art history paintings in 1989, and in this work you combined frames lifted from Disney cartoons with segments of paintings from Pablo Picasso and Jasper Johns and Jackson Pollock. And it was here that you established appropriation as one of your primary techniques. What gave you the sense that this was something you wanted to pursue?
- [09:03]
Deborah Kass
I think to answer that question, I should establish a little context, which was in the 70s, when I first came to New York after the Whitney program, when I came to settle down, find my loft, start my life, become a famous waitress. In the mid-70s, what was happening in the art world was thrilling. It was the height of second wave feminism. The art world was way smaller. The most interesting work, particularly painting, was being done by women. It was the intersection of New York school painting and feminism. The art that was being shown in SoHo, which was kind of a new thing, was Elizabeth Murray's work, which was incredibly important to me. So was Pat Steer's work, Mary Heilman's work, Susan Rothenberg's work. And all of these women were really talking about abstraction and representation at the same time. But more, what was interesting to me was how they were injecting their own personal point of view.
- [10:28]
Amy Sherald
Or.
- [10:31]
Deborah Kass
I'm not saying this well, but after all those years at MoMA, not understanding what any of it might have to do with me, basically, I wasn't necessarily the audience. I didn't feel like the subject. These particular women's work paintings were the first time I felt like I was the intended audience of a piece of work. And they were abstract paintings, so I don't know how that was communicated, but it was communicated extremely strongly to me, who was sort of already obsessed with post war painting because of all of my time at moma. And you can understand why, if I loved Frank Stella, Elizabeth Murray would be a huge revelation. And I said to Elizabeth once, I said, you know, you ruined abstraction. And she said, what do you, Deb, what do you mean? And I said, well, before you, it was universal. Once it was you, it became specific. And that was a really big change.
- [11:33]
Debbie Millman
I felt the same way when I looked at her first, the big giant canvases all out of proportion and shape and. Yeah, I mean, incredible.
- [11:42]
Deborah Kass
And Pat's work, the fact that she broke picture making down into these parts now, Jasper Johns had done it, but it felt different. Just felt different. I don't know. Something about seeing a Little Bird on a Grid felt different. Mary Haman's relationship to the edge in those paintings and the casualness. Only Mary would make a mark in that way, but it was still an abstract painting. Joan Snyder I put into this category too, making operatic operas with that work.
- [12:19]
Debbie Millman
How did that influence the kind of work you were doing at that time?
- [12:25]
Deborah Kass
I'm not sure it influenced me specifically in terms it's like Frank. I never made a Frank Stella painting except when I used Frank Stella. But it was never, to me about, well, then I'll make a piece of work like that. It's more what it meant philosophically.
- [12:46]
Amy Sherald
Or.
- [12:47]
Deborah Kass
What it could mean, what it opened up in you, what it opened. Well, what it opens up, period, and where you can go with that information. So then I go back to the early late 70s, early 80s, when neo expressionism happened, which also happened along with Ronald Reagan. But in that particular group of artists, you had to be a white man. There were simply no women my age who got any traction for being painters. Women. My generation got traction by being on the outskirts of the then very new and exciting market, following closely to Ronald Reagan's reign and the people who are taking a critical. Doing sort of critical work in relationship to the culture and representation. Us painters called them the Photo Girls. And it was Laurie Simmons and Sarah Charlesworth and Cindy Sherman and Louise Lawler and Barbara Krueger and Sherrie Levine. And what I'm getting at here is it was the content of that work that weirdly in my head, connected to what these women had done painting in the 70s, breaking open a system like abstraction and figuring out new ways in and new subjectivities, somehow getting them in there. And here were all these women doing critiques of photography and media and. And inserting their subjectivity in and seeing what it looked like from their point of view. And that that was incredibly interesting and radical. So the art history paintings came from a combination of those 70s women and what they'd done with the history of abstraction and post war painting and what Barbara, Cindy and Sherry, as I love to say, we're doing in terms of sort of cultural critique and media critique and putting them together into the art history paintings, which was me looking at the history of painting in a certain way, or certainly the one I loved and knew, starting with Cezanne, you know, like the stuff I just loved. And through post war painting, through Andy Warhol and putting that kind of critique that the Photo Girls were putting towards the culture, towards the history of painting.
- [15:15]
Debbie Millman
Deborah Cass From 2017, Amy Sherrid became a global phenomena when her official portrait of first lady Michelle Obama was unveiled. That painting now hangs in the National Portrait gallery In Washington, D.C. most of Amy Sherrill's subjects are vivid, colorful portraits of black Americans, which was one of the topics we talked about when we spoke. In 2018, after you got your master's degree in fine arts from Mica, you left Baltimore to return to Georgia to take care of your ailing family. Several members of your ailing family, and you didn't paint then for four years. You said that caretaking satiates something inside you, that you didn't miss painting when you were taking care of your family because it comes from the same place.
- [16:07]
Amy Sherald
It was really interesting that I didn't, because, you know, really for a short time, I was like, do I even want to paint anymore? But then what else would I do? It's a salient part of who I am, is I like taking care of people. Like, some people are just born with empathy, and they're just born to do that. And so I really enjoyed the challenge of caring for my great aunt, who was 94 years old, and making sure that she was comfortable, you know, so, like, I put her in a position, then I would go lay in that position to see how it felt and then, like, adjust it based on, like, what I thought was comfortable and uncomfortable, you know, so just really being intuitive about what she needed.
- [16:43]
Debbie Millman
While you were in painting, while you were taking care of your family, did you question whether art was your true path, whether you would go back to it? Did you have a sense that I did?
- [16:51]
Amy Sherald
Yeah, I questioned it. And I tried to make some things work out while I was there, like, tried to get a studio, but it just didn't work out. If I had done all the things that I wanted to do at the times that I wanted to do them, then maybe I wouldn't have been at the right place at the right time for some of the greater things that happened, you know, like, including being able to paint Michelle Obama.
- [17:14]
Debbie Millman
Let's talk a little bit about your style and your process. I'd like to talk a little bit about your use of color. Early on, you had a friend who suggested that it would be easier to paint flesh if you did so in grayscale first. And he suggested using black and naples yellow over black and white, which comes out very silver. And you tried it and liked the result of the gray skin and decided to keep it. Can you tell us a little bit about why you chose to move forward with that specific look?
- [17:42]
Amy Sherald
Philosophically I was going through the process of trying to figure that out. It's those two colors, Just those two colors, but they're not over. The black and white. I prefer it to the black and white because it does. It's an icy or kind of gray. But I think, you know, because the work that I was doing in graduate school, it wasn't what I needed it to be. And when I tried to go back to it, I knew inside of my heart that it wasn't sophisticated enough to get me where I wanted to be. And after the journey of, like, spending a year trying to figure out what I was gonna make and not being productive in the studio, like, going there, sitting and leaving there feeling like, is this ever gonna work out? Because I couldn't figure out what it was, you know, and having that epiphany where I saw the movie Big Fish, and, like, it clicked for me what was what I thought was necessary, that I felt like was missing from the conversation in the contemporary art world. And so I really knew that I wanted to make these images of these paintings of black people that were just that. Just paintings of black people. And so, for me, I think I was subconsciously a little afraid that the conversation would be pushed into a corner. And I didn't want the work to be marginalized in that way, because I needed it to live and to be bigger and to exist in a different space. And so that's, I think, why I settled on that. And, you know, I say all of my decisions, of course, at first, are aesthetic. So, like, things look cool first, and then you're working on them. And then the words, you know, you sit back as, you know, you're streaming through your subconscious. And so it's hard to be aware of those two things at the same time. So, like, when you're done, you sit back and you look and you have conversations with people, and, like, yeah, that's. I think that's what happened.
- [19:23]
Debbie Millman
So I have two questions about that. The first is about your decision to exclusively paint people of color. You did that while you were at mica. How did you arrive at that decision?
- [19:34]
Amy Sherald
It was a natural decision for me. I don't think it was a choice because, I mean, I don't think white people sit around and think, I'm only gonna paint white people like, they paint their ideal selves. And I. I'm painting my ideal self. You know, people ask me at artist talks, like, are you ever gonna paint anybody white? Like, you know, I think we think you should. And I'm like, Well, I think you should reconsider what you're asking me, because.
- [20:00]
Debbie Millman
You need to take socially assumptive.
- [20:01]
Amy Sherald
You need to take a little walk around the museum, and you should probably open up a history book or two and then get back at me. Because I think it's really interesting how they can see the absence of themselves, but they can't translate that and see how I may feel that there's an absence of myself within our history and just, you know, and just in general. So that's. It's just really funny to me when that happens. But, I mean, I have no reason to paint white people because like Kerry James Marshall said, he's like, whiteness has been perpetuated for centuries. It's like, what do I have to do with that? I have nothing to do with that. So I'm wholly committed to putting more images of people that look like me in museum institutions and changing the expectations of what people think they should see when they go to a museum and creating spaces for black people to walk into places like that and be confronted by an image of themselves where they will feel loved and affirmed. I also think that other people who are non black can look at the work and possibly because you subtract the way that we identify with each other through skin color to possibly be able to internalize blackness and see themselves in a way. Like in these images. Like I always say, like, I totally identify with Reese Witherspoon, Legally Blonde. Like, I watched a movie and I'm like, I've internalized white women to the point where I can look at her and see myself, you know? And I think, for me, I think that's really an important part of the conversation about race in the States. It's like, there's still, like, a separation.
- [21:39]
Debbie Millman
Your paintings are extremely emotive. You can't help but feel something when you're looking at the people that you paint. Has it always been that way? I haven't been able to find much of your early work. It almost feels as if your work came out fully formed.
- [21:59]
Amy Sherald
You will never see, never ever see the old work.
- [22:02]
Debbie Millman
No, but there is a certain presence to every single portrait you've painted, and it feels as if it just happened that way. How did you get to that particular moment in your work and know that that was what you wanted to continue to pursue?
- [22:21]
Amy Sherald
I honestly can't say that I knew that I was doing it when I did it. You know, I think the first moment that that thought even crossed my mind because I've always been, you know, I'm like, obviously I have a healthy amount of self doubt. Like, I'm just think I'm that great, you know, I'm like, I tell people, like, I'm not here because I'm the best painter. I'm here just because I worked hard and I didn't give up. And sooner or later everybody else gives up and you don't. So you end up at the top. But I.
- [22:43]
Marilyn Minter
Do you really believe that?
- [22:45]
Amy Sherald
I mean, kind of. Kind of.
- [22:47]
Debbie Millman
I mean, you're extremely young. Your paintings are just unbelievably amazing.
- [22:54]
Amy Sherald
Yeah.
- [22:54]
Debbie Millman
It just feels like it's more than just working harder.
- [22:57]
Marilyn Minter
Luck.
- [22:57]
Amy Sherald
Yeah. I mean, that's what I mean. It kind of is because it's not empirical. Like there's 2 million people trying to be artists at the same time as you. And who gets to be chosen and then who's chosen and then who's still going to be there in 25 years? It's like you really. There's strategy to that. Like, it's definitely, in a lot of ways, it's not random because there's ways to do it. You just have to be aware and like look at the system and see how it works. But yeah, I don't. I didn't know I was doing it until I had a show and I had like three people start crying while they were looking at the work. And I was like, what is wrong with y'?
- [23:30]
Ai Weiwei
All?
- [23:30]
Amy Sherald
You know, so it's just really. It was just really a moment for me. I was like, something about what I did is moving these people. And I don't quite understand how to explain it. I mean, the way that I explain it is that, you know, I'm so particular about the people that I paint and like what kind of energy they hold within themselves, that maybe somehow that is what's translated into the work, but I don't know.
- [23:55]
Debbie Millman
Amy Sherrid from 2018 AI Weiwei is a world famous Chinese conceptual artist who for decades now has been a thorn in the side of the Chinese government for his provocative art and activism. In 2022, he published a memoir called 100 Years of Joys and Sorrows. I spoke with him that year in front of a live audience at the Brooklyn Academy of Music in New York City. How similar or different was your approach to writing to the way that you approach art?
- [24:37]
Ai Weiwei
Writing is difficult, but to do art is just too easy for me to do it. So I cannot even compare this to.
- [24:49]
Debbie Millman
You Write about how you believe the best things that happen in our lives and the moments we treasure most are those when we don't consciously understand ourselves, which is true.
- [25:03]
Ai Weiwei
Like now. I don't understand why I'm sitting here.
- [25:13]
Debbie Millman
Are you having any fun at all?
- [25:16]
Ai Weiwei
Yeah, it's nice to be here.
- [25:21]
Debbie Millman
Talk a little bit more about how you think that lack of consciousness creates openings for things to happen.
- [25:33]
Ai Weiwei
You're less prepared and that means you're.
- [25:36]
Bisa Butler
More.
- [25:39]
Ai Weiwei
Bold because you don't have this clear sense how dangerous your situation is. I think that helps a lot.
- [25:51]
Debbie Millman
Do you like danger?
- [25:54]
Ai Weiwei
I think any true happiness or the moment is always related to danger.
- [26:03]
Debbie Millman
In what way?
- [26:05]
Ai Weiwei
Because you are breaking the normal rationality which trying to protect you. And you know. So then very often you have no. No way to. To start something new.
- [26:27]
Debbie Millman
At the onset of starting something new, do you experience insecurity?
- [26:35]
Ai Weiwei
Why we need to be so secure? We are staying here all the time anyway, so.
- [26:44]
Debbie Millman
Do you ever have moments of doubt?
- [26:47]
Ai Weiwei
Always.
- [26:49]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Why?
- [26:51]
Ai Weiwei
Because I couldn't figure out all those things, why we are here and where we're going from here. And it's very hard to figure it out.
- [27:03]
Debbie Millman
Do you do a lot of planning?
- [27:05]
Ai Weiwei
No, I. I always listen to other people's order, like now, you know, I. Waiting for the question, but I never really planned. Since.
- [27:22]
Debbie Millman
You created 100 million ceramic sunflower seeds for an installation, it's not created, it's.
- [27:30]
Ai Weiwei
I ordered from workers in China, you know, I. I pay them the salary and 1600 lady women. That's what they do for two years.
- [27:54]
Debbie Millman
100 million sunflower seeds? Yes. So I've been visiting a number of different artist studios over the last year. And almost everybody that I visit now has a lot of assistance. They're an artist, but they have a lot of people working for them because.
- [28:14]
Ai Weiwei
They are lazy or because they.
- [28:19]
Debbie Millman
Well, I mean, that's, I think, an easy answer. I think that makes sense if you're thinking about somebody making something by hand in the traditional way. But it does allow for an artist to produce more work, to get more work out there, to be more prolific. If you were sitting yourself painting ceramic sunflowers, if you were making 100 million of them, you'd be doing that for the rest of your life. So does it change the way you view the art if somebody else is helping you?
- [28:56]
Ai Weiwei
It changed the way I view the art because all those sunflower says still stays in my warehouse because it's too many and nobody can ever handle that many things. And also if you see every artist produce so much. But if you go to moma, the museum, you see what they hang in there is about works happening 100 years ago. Like van Gogh, Right?
- [29:26]
Debbie Millman
He didn't have a bevy of assistants.
- [29:28]
Ai Weiwei
No, no, no. They're so timid. They don't know how to handle the art of today. And they're so. I don't know, they don't even drink, but they seem so drunk.
- [29:43]
Debbie Millman
Do you view the art differently, though? Do you think less of it? If there's more assistance in making it?
- [29:49]
Ai Weiwei
I don't know. You ask too many serious questions.
- [29:53]
Debbie Millman
I'll lighten it up a little bit. Let's talk about hope.
- [29:59]
Ai Weiwei
That's easy.
- [30:01]
Debbie Millman
You've said that the consequences of hope are to show the condition of our heart. I'll say that again so that the audience can really appreciate it. The consequences of hope are to show.
- [30:15]
Ai Weiwei
The condition of our heart that will end up tragic.
- [30:23]
Debbie Millman
I actually was going to ask you if that means you're an optimist and now you're telling me that it's tragic. Why is it tragic?
- [30:31]
Ai Weiwei
Because being real can be very damaging and can be very tragic in our society.
- [30:40]
Debbie Millman
Then why even think about hope?
- [30:44]
Ai Weiwei
It's just as human. We have a lot of we constantly make mistakes. So think about hope is one of them.
- [30:58]
Debbie Millman
You think hope is a mistake?
- [31:01]
Ai Weiwei
Most likely. I cannot see every hope is mistake. But.
- [31:10]
Debbie Millman
What are your hopes?
- [31:12]
Ai Weiwei
I hope the hope is not mistake.
- [31:19]
Debbie Millman
AI Weiwei from 2022 at the Brooklyn Academy of Music.
- [31:24]
Marilyn Minter
It.
- [31:28]
Deborah Kass
Hi, this is Kim and Pen Holderness from the Laugh Lines Podcast.
- [31:31]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Boost Mobile offers the same nationwide coverage.
- [31:34]
Deborah Kass
Network speed and service consumers are used to, but at more affordable prices.
- [31:39]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Why pay more if you don't have to?
- [31:41]
Marilyn Minter
Boost Mobile offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. Love your service or get your money back, no questions asked.
- [31:49]
Deborah Kass
While other carriers blow millions on super bowl ads, we put that money to work for you, delivering reliable 99 nationwide.
- [31:57]
Debbie Millman
Coverage at affordable prices.
- [31:59]
Marilyn Minter
Start saving on wireless today with Boost Mobile's Unlimited plans. Starting at just 25amonth, the Boost Mobile.
- [32:05]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Network, together with their roaming partners, cover.
- [32:08]
Deborah Kass
99% of the US population. 5G speeds not available in all areas.
- [32:13]
Marilyn Minter
Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store. Find us online@boost mobile.com Customers who cancel.
- [32:18]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Within 30 days of activation will have Boost service fees refunded, activation fees if.
- [32:24]
Deborah Kass
Applicable, and phone payments will not be refunded.
- [32:29]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
If you're navigating anxiety, depression, relationship challenges, postpartum struggles, or something else, you deserve care that meets you where you are. GrowTherapy is designed to help you find a therapist who fits your needs and supports the way you want to feel. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US offering both virtual and in person sessions. You can search by insurance provider, specialty treatment methods and more to find a therapist therapist who works for you. Whatever challenges you're facing, GrowTherapy is here to help. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com acast today to get started. That's growtherapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.
- [33:25]
Debbie Millman
Hi, it's Sarah.
- [33:27]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
I'm the founder of Olive and June.
- [33:28]
Deborah Kass
And can I tell you the one.
- [33:29]
Debbie Millman
Thing that always makes my day better?
- [33:31]
Deborah Kass
A fresh manicure.
- [33:32]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
But who has the time or the.
- [33:34]
Deborah Kass
Money to go to the salon every week?
- [33:35]
Debbie Millman
That's why we created the Olive and.
- [33:37]
Deborah Kass
June Gel Mani system. It gives you that same mani that you get at a salon for so much less. It comes with everything you need.
- [33:44]
Debbie Millman
A pro level lamp, salon grade tools, our damage free gel polish that lasts.
- [33:48]
Deborah Kass
Up to 21 days. All you do is prep, paint, cure and you're good to go. And the best part?
- [33:54]
Debbie Millman
It's super easy and so affordable. Each mani breaks down to $2.
- [33:58]
Deborah Kass
So let's skip that $80 salon appointment and get the salon quality look at home for so much less.
- [34:04]
Debbie Millman
And on your schedule, head to OliveAndJune.com.
- [34:08]
Deborah Kass
DIY Gel20 and use code DIY Gel20 for 20% off your first Gel Mani system. That's OliveAnJune.com DIY Gel20 code DIY Gel20 for 20 percent off your first Gel.
- [34:22]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Mani system in today's fast changing digital world, proving your company is trustworthy isn't just important for growth, it's essential. That's why Vanta is here. Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry leading AI, automation and continuous monitoring. So whether you're a startup tackling your first SoC2 or ISO 27001 or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier and more scalable. Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to 5 times F so you can win bigger deals sooner. The results According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slash over $500,000 a year in costs and are three times more productive. Establishing trust isn't optional. Vanta makes it automatic. 10,000 global companies trust Vanta, including Atlassian, Quora, Chili Piper and factory. Visit vanta.com tedaudio to sign up for a free demo today. That's V A N T a dot com tedaudio.
- [35:27]
Debbie Millman
Marilyn Minter is an artist whose photorealistic images are beautiful, erotic, and also quite provocative. I spoke to her in 2021 while you were in school. I understand that you called the Factory to learn how to make silk screens and they told you.
- [35:44]
Marilyn Minter
They told me how, yeah. I was always ambitious. I was always ambitious. Remember Evergreen? You're probably too young to know Evergreen Review, but it was this really radical magazine in the 60s and 70s, and it was on the back pages of Evergreen, the number of the Factory.
- [36:02]
Debbie Millman
Incredible. Yet you've said that at that point in your life, you had no confidence.
- [36:06]
Marilyn Minter
No, none.
- [36:07]
Debbie Millman
But you were ambitious. And I think that's such an interesting combination of attributes. You were no confidence, but ambitious. So would you say that your ambition. You had a tiny bit more ambition than lack of confidence in your ability to even have the courage to call the Factory?
- [36:26]
Marilyn Minter
You know, I didn't have any problem at all asking for help. It was a moment, and it was really that moment in feminism where I just was decided that there was no difference. Even though I know now there is a real difference between males and females. But, like, we don't have upper body strength, things like that. I learned really the hard way. But I, you know, I was just determined to be able to do anything a guy could do.
- [36:53]
Debbie Millman
You began collaborating with German expressionist painter Christoph Kohlhofer upon moving to New York.
- [36:58]
Marilyn Minter
Right.
- [36:59]
Debbie Millman
In 1976. It was at that time that you began making the hardcore porn that resulted in your getting beaten up by art critics. So you started beating up the paintings with a belt sander, which led you to the work that you did next. Why was your work perceived as so threatening at that time?
- [37:19]
Marilyn Minter
It seemed really natural for me for women to start making images for their own pleasure and amusement because I liked porn. It turned me on, and I thought that feminists should own, you know, sexual reproduction. Now that. And I started making those images. And there's a long story why I was. And I'll make it as quick as I can.
- [37:41]
Debbie Millman
Oh, you don't have to do it quickly. It's fine.
- [37:45]
Marilyn Minter
Well, you know, in the 90s. No, no, I guess it was in the late 80s. I saw this. Well, I was always, you know, I was always concerned why male artists got so much more attention than female artists. It was always in the back of my mind why, you know, this doesn't seem fair. Like, I pay a lot of attention to art history. I'm like, love art history. And so I knew the work of Joan Mitchell, Joni Mitchell, and I thought, damn, she just kicks ass. She's so good. Why isn't she getting the same amount of attention as somebody like de Kooning? You know, I know Pollock changed art history in a big, big way, but why wasn't she just as important? She made just as radical a move and these kinds of things. And I saw Helen Frankenthaler change art history in such a big way. Why wasn't she getting the attention of Morris Lewis was getting, or Kenneth Noland? And so with that background, I went to see this really great show of Mike Kelly at Metro Pictures. Ah, Mike Kelly, yeah, and a great artist. And he had been. And the paintings were paintings of, they were sewed out onto canvas, stuffed animals and stuffed animal sculptures. And dolls, there were dolls. And he did tables filled with candle wax and he made banners out of felt and he did decoupage. Decoupage. Chest of drawers of lips and mouths. It was really like mining a 13 year old girl's brain or an adolescent child that this mall culture, you know, and glitters and rainbows. And I thought, wow, this is this intellectual, man. If a woman artist had made any of this work, she would get no attention whatsoever.
- [39:39]
Debbie Millman
Oh, she would have been ostracized, I.
- [39:41]
Marilyn Minter
Don'T know, ostracizer, considered essentialist or, you know, and I thought, this is so brilliant, you know, he's making a picture we all know is a thing that exists, you know. You know, people were enraptured by it. So I thought, well, what is the one subject matter that women have never touched? Because you know, if a woman made this, she'd be totally dismissed. But if a man made it, it changed the meaning. So I was asking questions, I said, well, what happens if a woman takes sexual imagery and owns it and makes reproductions from it? And then that's how I got into working for porn. And I knew, I only knew about two other artists, Judy Bernstein and Carolee Steaman, who I really admired, that had worked with porn. And I thought of them as working with soft core porn. So I thought, well, it'll only work if I do cum shots, really hardcore things. At that point, cum shots were kind of hardcore. And this was in the late 80s. So I made this one series called the Porn Grid. And I really thought everyone was thinking just like I did. And what I was doing was repurposing imagery from an abusive history. There was that whole feminist movement that really believed that all porn was Evil and bad and exploitive. And of course, it's very hard to argue against that. But I was trying to make the case that nobody has politically correct fantasies and that it's time for women to make images for their own amusement and their own pleasure. They should own the production of sexual imagery. And it frightened the hell out of everybody. And it still does, by the way. Yeah, I was asking these questions, and since I didn't have any answers, which I still don't, by the way, that was my downfall because it was so easy to categorize me as a traitor to feminism and an anti feminist. And I basically kicked out of the art world. You know, shows closed. My clothes. My show closed a week early. I couldn't sell anything. I was. Got excoriating reviews in the Times and the Village Voice, and I was pretty devastated because I thought. Everyone thought I wasn't ever trying to be titillating or. But I somehow knew I was on the right path. And basically the Internet exploded and my side won.
- [42:09]
Debbie Millman
What do you think people were really upset about?
- [42:13]
Marilyn Minter
I think they're really upset about the fact that women tried to own this power because women have always known they have this power over men. A kind of a power, sexual power. You know, men are frightened by it, I think, and other women are frightened by it. And I don't think we've even had anybody talking about. How very rarely do you write. Does anyone write about how women owning the production of it is so scary to everyone. And it still is. I mean, especially if you. But I'm an old lady, so I can get away with it. But when I was youngish, you know, I was in my early 40s. You know, young girls still, if they work with any sexual imagery, get terrible slut shaming in the art world today.
- [43:00]
Debbie Millman
So you think that it's more acceptable that you do it now because of your age?
- [43:05]
Marilyn Minter
Oh, absolutely. I mean, there's this picture. I always use this as an example. There's this very famous Robert Mapplethorpe photograph of Louise Bourgeois holding this giant dildo, and she's grinning, and everyone thinks she's adorable. But if a young artist. If a young, beautiful artist had that, you know, you just can see that people, both men and women, get so terrified of that. And that's like one of the big questions for me is, why anyone? Why is it so, like, it's okay if I can do anything now, you know, in terms of sexuality, what's that all about? Why aren't people. Why is anyone investigating that or writing about it? I think it's fascinating.
- [43:46]
Debbie Millman
Do you think it has more to do with the more permissiveness of the time or the more. The slightly more tolerant times in terms of sexuality, marriage equality and so forth?
- [43:58]
Marilyn Minter
Well, you know, I mean, there was no trans people in the 70s. You know, I mean, there were no. There was no fluidity. There was no gender fluidity.
- [44:07]
Debbie Millman
Both hidden.
- [44:08]
Marilyn Minter
Yeah, it was totally hidden, as a matter of fact. There was no language for it. And the fact that there was no language, nobody knew what was going on. There was nothing written. I knew so many people that were, quote, asexual, and they were just, you know, probably in the wrong body. The beauty of today is that we're finally looking at everybody who's been ignored, who's been written out, who doesn't exist. It's a beautiful thing, really, for me to see the diversity that. That we're accepting as normal and not as this kind of. I remember Christine Jorgensen. Do you know that name? Yeah. She was like the first transgendered person.
- [44:51]
Debbie Millman
Yes.
- [44:52]
Marilyn Minter
Swedish. Yeah. And then there was a. Right after that, there was sort of one. But there were these oddities. They weren't part of the world now. The language didn't exist, and that's what would hurt. The language didn't exist for women to work with sexual imagery either. It just didn't exist. We were unladylike, if we even knew about it or something. I don't know. I don't really. I'm not an intellectual, obviously, but I just felt the disparity and how all this was very wrong. Somehow. Women should be able to make images for their own pleasure, basically, or to look at images for their own pleasure.
- [45:28]
Debbie Millman
Marilyn Minter from 2021. Bisa Butler is a fiber artist who has created extraordinarily vivid quilted portraits of African Americans. When I spoke with her in 2022, I wanted to know how she found her medium. You earned a master's degree in art education at Montclair State University, but it wasn't until you were studying for your master's degree in education that you finally made your first quilt. What motivated that and what was the topic matter?
- [46:02]
Bisa Butler
That first quilt in grad school was actually what I loved about Montclair State was even though I was graduating with a master's in teaching, they had prerequisites, like you. We had to take jewelry making, which we didn't have at Howard, and we also had to take fibers. And I would say that I felt like Howard didn't want those craft courses because they wanted this African American aesthetic. But it was also this feeling like we want to get away from stereotypical old time Negro crafts, if I'll say that. So I think that they felt like fibers, quilting, basket making, knitting was something that people did on plantations or something that people did down south that was an uneducated thing to do. So I think they had this a little bit of an inferiority complex that didn't exist. When I went to Montclair State, a primarily white college, the fibers program at Montclair State was heavily run by women, white women. And so the women's movement has a whole different categories and different hangups and different things that they were pushing. And so they were saying, like, we're embracing women's art, women's work. This craft work was revered. And so they had pushed it that every art student, even if for art education, art history, had to take fibers. And thank God. My professor at the time, Kurt Grabowski, was somebody who was very heavily into the craft circuit. I think she spent six months out of the year traveling, doing craft fairs. And she wanted us to sort of dabble in all of the major fiber. We did, like surface design, we did weaving, we did felting, which I had never done. I thought it was so much fun. Have you ever felt it?
- [47:55]
Debbie Millman
Yes, I love felt. I do actually have done quite a bit of art with felt, felt letters.
- [48:00]
Amy Sherald
Oh, how did I not know that?
- [48:01]
Debbie Millman
Oh, it's because. Yeah, it's just not even in the.
- [48:05]
Amy Sherald
Realm of what you do.
- [48:07]
Debbie Millman
It's.
- [48:08]
Bisa Butler
Isn't it? The feel of that wet wool. It connects. There's something that is happening that I think is going all the way back to, you know, when we were just humans and trying to make our very first cloth.
- [48:23]
Debbie Millman
Yes.
- [48:24]
Bisa Butler
And she had an assignment for us. She said, you can make a quilt. It can be out of squares and geometric design, or you can make like a landscape landscape. Or you can make a still life. I don't think she said portrait. She said you could do a still life. So I made like a little oven mitt sized piece of a corner of the classroom. And there was stuff in there that we used in fibers. So it looked kind of domestic. Like there was a blender and I suppose maybe somebody was blending. I don't know if we blended inks or however it was, but I did that. And then I was like, okay, so I can make pictures of realistic things with fabric. I want to do for the final project, my grandmother's portrait. My grandmother's health was failing and she didn't want to Get a kidney transplant. She wasn't going to do dialysis. She was like, I'm not doing any of those things. So she was getting very ill, and I was painting her on the weekends. And then when I finished painting her, she hated that painting.
- [49:26]
Debbie Millman
Is this the same grandmother that resewed your dress?
- [49:29]
Bisa Butler
Yes, my grandmother was. She was raised with very high standards. She was a New Orleans belle. You know, she wasn't a Creole. She was a black woman from New Orleans. But she definitely. Her ancestors were Creoles, and she hated the painting. She said I made her look old. And so while that happened, I thought, okay, how about I make a quilted portrait of her for class? I can fulfill my assignment. I have my final project, and I'm able to give something to my grandmother. So I used, like, all these fabrics that the teacher had donated. She had some black fabric with purple flowers. And my grandmother's name was Violet. So I thought, okay, this kind of looks like violet, so use some of that. Use some lace. But while that was happening, I was coming up with my own aesthetic without realizing, like, that I'm using pieces of fabric to describe her, not just because they're pretty. And that portrait, I still have it. My grandmother was so happy with it. She used to lay it. By this time, she was bedridden, and so she would keep the quilt over her leg on the bed, but she had to still have the tissue paper over it. She was just, like, really sweet. And it was special because she loved it. And how I portrayed her was her wedding photo. So she was happy with the way she looked. And I should have realized that, too. Like, who wants a portrait done of them while you're literally dying? That's not. I didn't. I didn't understand that she still had her own vanity and was still a beautiful woman, and she saw herself not as the sickly elderly woman. And so creating that, like, helped me to understand her as a person finally. You know, when people die and the pictures at the funeral are sometimes younger, like, once they die, they're ageless. Right? It's perfectly fine to have a picture of her at 20 or 30 or 40. And so I understood that of her before she passed, that that's how she saw herself and that's how she wanted to be seen. And I was glad that I was able to do that. And that sort of kicked off my entire second half of my life.
- [52:02]
Debbie Millman
Bisa Butler from 2022. You can hear the full interviews and dozens of other interviews with a huge variety of artists and other creative people on our website designmattersmedia.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Over the next several weeks, we're going to continue with more special episodes culled from the two decades I've been doing Design Matters. Yes, this is the 20th year we've been podcasting Design Matters, and I'd like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference. We can make a difference, or we can do both. I'm Debbie Millman and I look forward to talking with you again soon.
- [52:43]
Marilyn Minter
Design Matters is produced by the TED Audio Collective by Curtis Fox Productions. The interviews are usually recorded at the Masters in Branding program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest running branding program in the world. The Editor in Chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Weiland. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.
- [53:21]
Deborah Kass
Potential savings will vary.
- [53:22]
Marilyn Minter
Not available in all states.
- [53:24]
Debbie Millman
Every day millions of customers engage with AI agents like me.
- [53:29]
Amy Sherald
We resolve queries fast, we work 247.
- [53:32]
Debbie Millman
And we're helpful, knowledgeable and empathetic. We're built to be the voice of the brands we serve. Sierra is the platform for building better.
- [53:41]
Amy Sherald
More human customer experiences with AI. No hold music, no generic answers, no frustration.
- [53:48]
Debbie Millman
Visit Sierra AI to learn more.
- [53:54]
Ai Weiwei
Par le tu francais?
- [53:55]
Deborah Kass
Hablas espanol?
- [53:56]
Debbie Millman
Parl italiano?
- [53:58]
Amy Sherald
If you've used Babbel, you would Babbel's conversation based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language.
- [54:11]
Marilyn Minter
Experts and voiced by real native speakers.
- [54:13]
Amy Sherald
Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com acast spelled B-A B-B-E-L.com acast rules and restrictions may apply.
- [54:33]
Debbie Millman
Your nonprofit's mission is big, but your team is small. That's where Bonterra's Network for Good comes in. It's fundraising software built for organizations like yours. No IT team required, just intuitive tools that help you reach more donors, grow, support, and stay organized. With dedicated guidance and proven strategies, you can focus on changing lives instead of chasing spreadsheets. Big impact, less stress. That's Bonterra network for good.