Design Matters with Debbie Millman

20th Anniversary Celebration: Conversations with Iconic Photographers
Originally aired: November 17, 2025

Episode Overview

This special 20th anniversary episode of Design Matters revisits some of host Debbie Millman’s most meaningful conversations with legendary photographers over the past two decades. Through rich, candid excerpts, we hear from Catherine Opie, Albert Watson, Pete Souza, Lynn Goldsmith, and Mary Ellen Matthews about the arc of their lives and careers, the communities that shaped them, and the philosophies at the heart of their work. Millman’s thoughtful questions draw out not just artistic insights but deeply personal stories of struggle, identity, and growth—showing how these celebrated image-makers have designed their creative journeys.

Key Guests & Topics

Catherine Opie (Portraiture, Queer Communities, Healing through Art)
Albert Watson (Vision, Technical Mastery, Evolution in Photography)
Pete Souza (Photojournalism, Presidential History, Objectivity)
Mary Ellen Matthews (SNL Portraits, Career Serendipity, Creative Risk)
Lynn Goldsmith (Music Photography, The Beatles, Personal Identity)

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Intimacy and Impact of Portraiture

(Catherine Opie, 03:35–17:10)

• Immersing in the Community:
  Opie shares how living in San Francisco’s lesbian enclave introduced her to On Our Backs magazine and inspired her to merge her lesbian identity with her photography.
  “So I just decided, like, well, I want a picture, not our backs. I’m a photographer, I’m a lesbian. Why shouldn’t I try to actually do that as well?” — Catherine Opie (04:18)

• Art as Healing and Activism:
  Opie reveals, for the first time in an interview, her childhood trauma, and describes how engaging with the leather/BDSM community offered healing and political empowerment—not just sexuality.
  “My authenticity to my own experience and in my childhood was definitely worked out on an emotional level, very much so through the leather community.” — Catherine Opie (06:21)

• Visibility, Self-Portraiture, Family:
  Opie discusses initial shyness about exposing personal images due to concern for her family and the challenge of moving from private to public selfhood.
  “At a certain point, I just realized that my family is my chosen family...and so I just decided to go for it.” — Catherine Opie (10:41)

• On Concept and Aesthetics:
  The use of a yellow background in her Being and Having series stemmed from practical and symbolic reasons, including inclusivity of skin tones and inspiration from historical portraiture.
  “Yellow was the best to kind of make it pop…using that yellow background consistently…created a conceptual positioning to portraiture that I felt was a way to shift from necessarily a comparison to Mapplethorpe.” — Catherine Opie (13:22)

• Community as Intellectual and Emotional Support:
  Opie highlights the deep conversations around identity, politics, and philosophy within queer circles, emphasizing the role of collective learning.
  “I wish everybody had that education in some ways.” — Catherine Opie (09:27)

2. Technical Mastery and the Evolution of a Photographer

(Albert Watson, 17:10–25:42)

• One-Eyed Visionary:
  Watson, blind in one eye since birth, discusses how his unique perspective hasn’t limited him—a practical detail most photographers experience through their camera anyway.
  “If I don’t think about my vision, then it seems normal to me.” — Albert Watson (18:12)

• Learning the Craft:
  He describes early struggles with the technical dimensions of photography, suggesting fluency is key to freeing creativity.
  “Get the technical thing out of the way and become so fluent that there is no stress.” — Albert Watson (20:19)

• On Embracing Change:
  Watson describes blending classic darkroom skills with the latest digital tools, working closely with expert technicians, and the importance of lifelong learning.
  “I'm always ready for a surprise, something that doesn’t work.” — Albert Watson (25:35)

• Memorable Anecdote:
  Watson sharing about his dentist who is obsessed with Leica cameras, and how the technical side can attract enthusiasts beyond professionals.
  “I have a dentist who has every Leica camera ever made. You know, he’s obsessed by it…” — Albert Watson (22:19)

3. Photojournalism, History, and Presidential Proximity

(Pete Souza, 25:42–35:50)

• Objectivity in Presidential Photography:
  Souza reflects on maintaining journalistic authenticity despite differing politics while working in the White House.
  “You're trying to photograph and make authentic pictures that are true to what has taken place.” — Pete Souza (27:16)

• On Bearing Witness to History:
  Souza touches on risking his life in Afghanistan just before U.S. troops arrived, the immediacy of transmitting images home, and the toll of witnessing conflict.
  “I realized that I was not that good at it because it takes a certain kind of person to be able to keep their ... together while really bad things are happening.” — Pete Souza (28:36)

• Meeting Barack Obama:
  Souza notes Obama's ease before the camera and his respect for everyone, as well as realizing early on that Obama might be destined for greater things.
  “As a photojournalist, you always hope to have a subject like that, you know, one who isn’t...startled by the presence of a camera. And he sort of just went about his business...” — Pete Souza (32:01)

• Historic Moments:
  Images of Obama in Moscow, unrecognized, are highlighted as examples of “timeless” storytelling ahead of their time.
  “I was trying to make pictures in my mind that I thought if he ever became president, these would be cooler pictures in 20 years.” — Pete Souza (34:11)

4. Career Serendipity and Creative Courage

(Mary Ellen Matthews, 39:11–48:53)

• Serendipity and Hustle:
  Matthews describes hustling for jobs in NYC, running into Bill Murray on a film set, who serendipitously helped launch her career.
  “And he was like, are you looking for a job? I said, yeah. He goes, do you want to work for me? I was like, sure. And he kind of put that into motion…” — Mary Ellen Matthews (41:13)

• Finding Her Path to SNL:
  After losing a job in music publicity, she received a fortuitous message to interview at Saturday Night Live, ultimately leading her to become Edie Baskin's assistant and later SNL’s chief photographer.
  “I was like, bye. And then I changed. I did. So that was serendipitous also.” — Mary Ellen Matthews (46:49)

• Learning and Mentorship:
  Matthews shares how working with Edie Baskin, who pioneered the show’s iconic bumpers, was formative.
  “She was so wonderful to me as a mentor...there’s no better way to get to know the show and what it means to everyone.” — Mary Ellen Matthews (46:50)

5. Music Photography, Identity, and Iconic Moments

(Lynn Goldsmith, 48:53–53:39)

• Seeing the Beatles Live on Ed Sullivan:
  Goldsmith’s story as a Detroit teen “forced” by her new Miami Beach stepfather to meet the Beatles, ultimately taking a photograph of their feet rather than their faces—her “first published photograph.”
  “I was very happy photographing the carpets of the Deauville Hotel that had these amazing designs. When the Beatles came through...I took a picture of their feet on the carpet.” — Lynn Goldsmith (51:41)

• On Tribes and Divided Fan Identity:
  Goldsmith reflects on the Beatles vs. Stones loyalties and the cultural stakes of fandom.
  “Back then, you had to choose. You were either a Stones fan or a Beatles fan.” — Lynn Goldsmith (52:56)

• Serendipity and Early Success:
  Lennon’s interaction with her (“Don’t you want all faces?”) and her refusal, leading to her first published photo being of their feet, shows a combination of chance and personal conviction.
  “John Lennon grabbing my forearm and saying, ‘Don’t you want all faces?’ And I just said no. And I pulled my arm away.” — Lynn Goldsmith (52:57)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “So I just decided, like, well, I want a picture, not our backs. I’m a photographer, I’m a lesbian. Why shouldn’t I try to actually do that as well?” — Catherine Opie (04:18)
• “Get the technical thing out of the way and become so fluent that there is no stress.” — Albert Watson (20:19)
• “You're trying to photograph and make authentic pictures that are true to what has taken place.” — Pete Souza (27:16)
• “I was very happy photographing the carpets of the Deauville Hotel that had these amazing designs. When the Beatles came through...I took a picture of their feet on the carpet.” — Lynn Goldsmith (51:41)
• “She was so wonderful to me as a mentor...there’s no better way to get to know the show and what it means to everyone.” — Mary Ellen Matthews (46:50)

Memorable Moments

• Catherine Opie’s first public acknowledgment of healing childhood trauma through art and queer community (06:21–07:38)
• Albert Watson humorously describing his gear-obsessed dentist (22:19–23:39)
• Pete Souza recalling Obama’s comfort and naturalness with his family, even hours after meeting him (31:24–32:01)
• Mary Ellen Matthews’s fortuitous career launch by Bill Murray on a random NYC street (41:13–41:56)
• Lynn Goldsmith recounting photographing the Beatles’ feet (51:41–52:56)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:35–17:10: Catherine Opie on community, philosophy, and healing in queer portraiture
• 17:10–25:42: Albert Watson on vision, technical mastery, and adaptation
• 25:42–35:50: Pete Souza on presidential photojournalism and objectivity
• 39:11–48:53: Mary Ellen Matthews on serendipity and building a photography career at SNL
• 48:53–53:39: Lynn Goldsmith on her first (accidental) Beatles photo and the odd turns of fate

Tone and Language

The episode is candid, reflective, and intimate—marked by moments of humor, vulnerability, and admiration. The guests speak in their own authentic voices, often weaving between deeply personal stories and larger cultural commentary, while Millman’s warm, insightful questioning brings out the nuance in each narrative.

Conclusion

This Design Matters 20th anniversary special is a moving tapestry of creative lives and the designs behind them. Each photographer, through honest reflection and storytelling, illustrates not only the evolution of their art but the social, technical, and emotional forces that shaped them and their most iconic images. Listeners come away with a richer understanding not just of photography, but of what it means to be seen, to belong, and to create with purpose.