Design Matters with Debbie Millman

20th Anniversary Celebration: Theatre Design with David Korins, Ina Mayhew, David Rockwell, Es Devlin, and Dane Laffrey

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

Episode Overview

Debbie Millman marks the 20th anniversary of "Design Matters" by celebrating the world of theatrical and production design. Through a curated selection of interviews from past episodes, Debbie revisits conversations with five groundbreaking theatre designers: David Korins, Ina Mayhew, David Rockwell, Es Devlin, and Dane Laffrey. Each designer discusses the creative journeys behind some of their most acclaimed projects, the intricacies of transforming stories into physical spaces, and the role of design in shaping not only theatrical productions but the lives of the artists and audiences alike.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Magic of Theater Design

• Theater’s Transformative Power
  • David Rockwell opens the episode by highlighting theater's unique quality:

    "Theater is one of the few art forms where things change in front of your eyes." (00:01, David Rockwell)

  • Dane Laffrey underscores the importance of audience immersion:

    "We had to really take the audience with them." (00:05, Dane Laffrey)

  • Es Devlin reflects on the shared, visceral experience:

    "It's very beautiful to be part of an audible gasp." (00:08, Es Devlin)

2. David Korins on "Hamilton" and the Invisible Work of Design

Segment: 03:41–14:06

• Collaboration and Creative Obsession

  • Debbie describes Korins’ path to "Hamilton," noting his early involvement:

    "You passionately wanted to be involved with Hamilton and pitch director Thomas Kail that you would be the James Madison to his Jefferson." (04:02, Debbie Millman)

  • Korins explains his drive:

    "I became kind of obsessed with the show. I really liked it..." (05:49, David Korins)

• Innovations: The Famous Turntable

  • Korins pitches the now-iconic turntable:

    "I cannot shake this cyclical motion of the show. There's something about this... relationship. And... I thought the turntable would be a really good way to tell that story." (08:13, David Korins)

  • He illustrates how it was initially met with skepticism:

    "Tommy was like, yeah, no, that's not gonna happen." (08:44, David Korins)

  • Ultimately, his storyboard of "10 moments" for the turntable wins them over:

    "They said, yeah, actually, that sounds really compelling and interesting. We'll think about that. We should try it. Like, let's storyboard further. And then we did it." (09:21, David Korins)

• Attention to Detail

  • On his quest for the perfect bricks:

    "We parsed through 33 different colors of brick to find the right shade." (09:37, Debbie Millman) "Brick comes in so many different shades, as do people... How are we gonna carve out 25,000 plus words and 51 songs with very little physical scenery...? So it also led to a lot of discoveries with the costume design..." (09:45, David Korins)

• Psychological Layering

  • Discusses adding 8 feet of wall during intermission—a nearly invisible set change representing America’s growth:

    "We add the eight feet because the country has progressed... And we also change out a lot of the props... And no one sees it... Even the actors hadn't noticed." (12:27, David Korins)

Notable Quotes

• "Performers are walking, but yet they're still moving... That's an obvious David Coren steps-on-stage moment." (09:45, David Korins)
• "Maybe they felt it." (13:54, David Korins) — on subconscious audience awareness of design changes.

3. Ina Mayhew: Persistence and Authenticity in Production Design

Segment: 14:06–21:22

• From Hair and Makeup to Production Design

  • Mayhew shares how she started in the industry through a makeup artist friend:

    "Somehow he got into the world of Spike Lee and he brought me with him... I was hair makeup on that music video." (14:40, Ina Mayhew)

• Being Resourceful and Relentless

  • On landing her first feature with Charles Lane:

    "I said, 'You're doing a film? You have to hire me... I probably did call him every day until I said, 'No, I want to be on this film...'" (16:31–16:55, Ina Mayhew)

• Learning from Spike Lee

  • "He completely said, 'I trust you. You're the designer. Do it.' There wasn't a lot of back and forth or collaboration at all." (15:31, Ina Mayhew)

• Overcoming Challenges

  • On feeling the need to overcompensate for not following the traditional film school path:

    "I didn't work up the ranks like a lot of people do... I kind of paid my dues by being an assistant for so many years that I didn't need to go up the ranks." (19:04, Ina Mayhew)

  • On the importance of thorough preparation to assert her vision:

    "I do my homework very, very thoroughly... so I could convince them of going in this direction." (20:32, Ina Mayhew)

Notable Quotes

• "I was not going to take no for an answer. Absolutely not." (17:29, Ina Mayhew)
• "So it allowed me to figure things out a little bit, not be afraid to make a mistake." (18:08, Ina Mayhew)

4. David Rockwell: The Intersection of Architecture and Theater

Segment: 21:22–29:21

• Transitions as Theatrical Opportunity

  • "What started to emerge out of that was my recognition that the real opportunity... in theater was transitions... So the set designer and the lighting designer together are kind of the cinematographer." (22:31, David Rockwell)

• Embracing Experimentation

  • His first theater experience, "The Rocky Horror Picture Show," required invention due to space limitations:

    "We went to see the Circle in the Square, which... has no fly loft, it has very little wing space. So it required invention..." (24:34, David Rockwell)

• Pandemic Response & Open Source Solutions

  • On leveraging design to help the restaurant industry during COVID-19:

    "I realized we were living in a period where we got to see what a city would like if it was all hardware... And it was brutal..." (25:56, David Rockwell)

  • "We looked at manufacturing techniques... Our outdoor installations were all non for profit... and then community installations, the first one in Chinatown where 12 restaurants shared it. And it led to doing that all over the country." (28:47, David Rockwell)

Notable Quotes

• "Cities are inert without people. And it sounds obvious in retrospect, but it was brutal." (26:12, David Rockwell)

5. Es Devlin: Instinct, Innovation, and the Audience as Collaborator

Segment: 33:28–45:24

• Changing Perceptions of Set Design

  • Gigantic praise (and a dig) from Harold Pinter:

    "You didn't pay any attention, any regard to the stage direction, and you designed the fuck out of it..." (33:55, Debbie Millman quoting Harold Pinter to Es Devlin) "It was all founded on utter instinct and ignorance... I just thought, where does this play need to happen?" (34:31, Es Devlin)

• Integrating Art and Memory

  • Inspiration from Rachel Whiteread’s "House" for a set that was a monument to memory:

    "We made a wall of plaster... found exact photo-real references... and then made impressions of them onto this concrete wall." (35:23, Es Devlin)

  • Early use of projection in theater:

    "It was very unusual to put projection in a theater... You had to sort of get an advertising agency to come. And it was very expensive to pay for someone to come and make a film to put on your theater piece." (36:37, Es Devlin)

• Balancing Boldness and Restraint

  • Es discusses moving beyond the rule that "set design should not be its own character":

    "The way I was taught was definitely, don't shout too loud, do less... but the answers will be in a process." (40:06, Es Devlin)

  • Treats every space as a "patient" in need of unique attention.

• The Shared Human Experience

  • On the collective engagement of audience and artists:

    "We all still the ego for the greater good." (41:46, Es Devlin)

  • The beauty of an “audible gasp”:

    "It's very beautiful to be part of an audible gasp." (45:11, Es Devlin)

Notable Quotes

• "Sometimes you can hear the sound and the beauty of an audience tolerating a second rate bit of work from a first class artist... there's a beautiful sound of audiences being patient." (42:47, Es Devlin)
• On Pinter's comment: "'Have you met Es Devlin? She wrote the play.' It's the best possible compliment I think you could give." (39:11, Debbie Millman)

  "I think it's definitely a backhanded one. More of a slap. But anyway, I'll take it." (39:23, Es Devlin)

6. Dane Laffrey: Designing for Humanity and Technology in "Maybe Happy Ending"

Segment: 45:28–54:21

• Finding Relatable Futures

  • On creating a set that is futuristic yet deeply human:

    "It's a story that we need a way into because it's something we don't immediately know... It is an imagined near future... those places felt like something we could hold on to..." (46:24, Dane Laffrey)

• Rejecting Old Paradigms

  • On ensuring each location has equal visual value:

    "All of those places have the same kind of visual value... I sort of like reject that idea. In contemporary theater making... if you're gonna do 75 locations, those 75 locations have to have a sort of equal value." (50:33, Dane Laffrey)

• Blurring Technology and Emotion

  • Integrating video and physical set elements to create a seamless experience:

    "A video element... felt like it was going to be a part of this world and that we would need to address that and find a way to do, to completely integrate it into the rest of the design..." (51:43, Dane Laffrey)

• Reflections on the Human Core of a Technological Story

  "It's the magic of the show is that you... come in thinking you're going to see a story about robots and... you were really holding the mirror up instead... I think that's a wonderful story about love." (52:04, Dane Laffrey)

  • The deliberate abstraction of video elements to match the bots’ perspectives:

    "When we use video, if you look closely at it, it's treated in exactly the same way... It is a deliberately digital thing that is precisely the same way that they process the world. And now we're giving the audience that opportunity." (54:06, Dane Laffrey)

Notable Quotes

• "We had to really take the audience with them." (00:05, reiterated at 47:01, Dane Laffrey)
• "That tension I love and it feels really important and I think it's important that these helper bots feel it... they lack agency in the world and it's something that they learn to have..." (52:22, Dane Laffrey)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |:-------------:|--------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:01 | David Rockwell | "Theater is one of the few art forms where things change in front of your eyes." | | 08:13 | David Korins | "I cannot shake this cyclical motion of the show... the turntable would be a really good way to tell that story." | | 13:54 | David Korins | "Maybe they felt it." | | 16:31 | Ina Mayhew | "You're doing a film? You have to hire me." | | 17:29 | Ina Mayhew | "I was not going to take no for an answer. Absolutely not." | | 26:12 | David Rockwell | "Cities are inert without people. And it sounds obvious in retrospect, but it was brutal." | | 34:31 | Es Devlin | "It was all founded on utter instinct and ignorance." | | 42:47 | Es Devlin | "Sometimes you can hear the sound and the beauty of an audience tolerating a second rate bit of work from a first class artist." | | 45:11 | Es Devlin | "It's very beautiful to be part of an audible gasp." | | 52:04 | Dane Laffrey | "You come in thinking you're going to see a story about robots and... you were really holding the mirror up instead..." |

Timestamps for Major Sections

• [03:41] Opening reflections on theater and set design
• [05:02]–[14:06] David Korins discusses "Hamilton," set experimentation, and the psychology of design
• [14:36]–[21:22] Ina Mayhew reflects on breaking into production design and asserting creative vision
• [21:22]–[29:21] David Rockwell on transitions, architecture, and the pandemic's impact on public spaces
• [33:28]–[45:24] Es Devlin on artistic instinct, theatrical innovation, and audience interaction
• [45:28]–[54:21] Dane Laffrey on "Maybe Happy Ending," designing with and for technology and humanity

Conclusion

This milestone episode of "Design Matters" encapsulates two decades of conversations about the art and impact of design, using the lens of five transformative theatrical designers. Through stories of relentless pursuit, rule-breaking creativity, obsessive research, and profound respect for audience experience, these designers underscore how set and production design animates both stage and society. Their reflections reveal that design at its best blurs boundaries between the visible and the invisible, the technological and the human, making every moment in the theater—and every moment in design—matter.

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