Summary of "Best of Design Matters: Lucy Sante"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Design Matters with Debbie Millman
• Host: Debbie Millman
• Guest: Lucy Sante
• Episode: Best of Design Matters: Lucy Sante
• Release Date: April 14, 2025
• Description: Design Matters with Debbie Millman is one of the world’s very first podcasts, focusing on the creative journeys of artists, designers, and thinkers. In this episode, Lucy Sante delves into her personal and professional life, discussing her experiences with gender transition, her writing career, and the profound insights she has gained along the way.

Introduction

The episode begins with Debbie Millman sharing her own long-held struggles with gender identity, setting an intimate tone for the conversation.

• Debbie Millman [00:01]:

  "For more than 55 years, I lived in a state of denial that kept my gender quandary suspended as if pickled in a jar."

Guest Introduction

Lucy Sante is introduced as a prolific writer with a rich history in literature, editing, and translation. Her latest memoir, I Heard Her Call: A Memoir of Transition, is highlighted as a significant work detailing her gender transition.

• Debbie Millman [04:01]:

  "Before her latest book, Lucy Sant had written, edited or translated a shelf full of books, fiction and nonfiction and a mountain of short pieces for magazines like the New York Review of Books..."

Early Life and Family Background

Lucy Sante discusses her roots in Verbier, Belgium, and the agricultural heritage of her family. She reflects on how her upbringing in a farming family influenced her worldview and personal development.

• Lucy Sante [07:56]:

  "My father's family has been in the same town... from the Ardennes, farming on very stony land for centuries."

Childhood and Identity Struggles

Sante opens up about her early experiences with gender identity, including being cast as a girl in school plays and grappling with her gender expression. She shares how these experiences led to periods of indulgence in gender fantasies followed by repudiation and denial.

• Debbie Millman [00:01]:

  "I kept my assorted gender questions and fixations scattered around different regions of my consciousness, refusing to accord them coherence."

• Lucy Sante [19:04]:

  "I saw myself as a girl. I thought my interests were pretty much a girl's interests."

Educational Journey and Mentorship

Sante recounts her admission to Regis High School at the age of 14 and how moving to Manhattan exposed her to a broader cultural and intellectual landscape. She credits her time at Columbia University and the mentorship of poet Kenneth Koch for shaping her approach to writing and teaching.

• Lucy Sante [21:32]:

  "Being in Manhattan changed my life. It showed me the world outside and opened up a universe of possibilities."

• Debbie Millman [23:54]:

  "I taught an assignment-based class... emphasis on voice, on style, on rhythm."

Writing Career and Early Work

Sante discusses her early writing endeavors, including founding the magazine Stranded while working at the Strand Bookstore. She highlights notable contributions from figures like Kathy Acker and Jean-Michel Basquiat, illustrating the vibrant literary and artistic community she was part of.

• Lucy Sante [27:11]:

  "We published four issues, including contributions from Kathy Acker and Jean Michel Basquiat. It was a mix of bad poetry, interesting Xerox graphics, and lively debates."

Professional Development and Critical Voice

Her first professional writing piece for The New York Review of Books is discussed, where she critically analyzes Albert Goldman's biography of Elvis Presley. Sante explains how this experience solidified her voice as a critic unafraid to challenge established narratives.

• Debbie Millman [33:04]:

  "I criticized Albert Goldman's biography of Elvis Presley as reeking of falsehood."

Personal Struggles and Gender Transition

The conversation shifts to Sante’s personal journey with gender identity. She details the long-term repression she endured and the pivotal moment facilitated by technology that allowed her to visualize herself as a woman, leading to her decision to come out later in life.

• Lucy Sante [45:42]:

  "I downloaded FaceApp... saw myself as an attractive woman... It made my desire to live as a woman a coherent phenomenon."

• Debbie Millman [47:46]:

  "Seeing the panorama of my life as a girl... it was a coherent phenomenon, consistently just under the surface of my nominal life for all those decades."

Coming Out and Overcoming Repression

Sante describes the emotional and psychological challenges she faced while coming out, including fear of losing relationships and grappling with internalized shame. She emphasizes the importance of authenticity and the liberation that comes from embracing one's true identity.

• Lucy Sante [54:20]:

  "It's who I am, and if you don't like it, tough. It's the truth. I am manifesting the truth."

Legacy and Ongoing Journey

Discussing her outlook on life post-transition, Sante reflects on her ongoing process of self-discovery and the continuous nature of her identity journey. She expresses gratitude for overcoming repression and the peace she has found in living authentically.

• Debbie Millman [60:29]:

  "Transitioning is not an event but a process... it's a big, huge process that will occupy the rest of my life as I go on changing."

Concluding Reflections

The episode wraps up with mutual expressions of admiration and support. Sante shares a poignant excerpt from her memoir, underscoring the theme of freedom through authenticity.

• Lucy Sante [62:02]:

  "When there is nothing left to protect, the result is freedom."

• Debbie Millman [62:25]:

  "Thank you for joining me today on Design Matters."

Notable Quotes

1. Debbie Millman [00:01]:

   "I kept my assorted gender questions and fixations scattered around different regions of my consciousness, refusing to accord them coherence."

2. Lucy Sante [19:04]:

   "I saw myself as a girl. I thought my interests were pretty much a girl's interests."

3. Lucy Sante [45:42]:

   "I could now see the panorama of my life as a girl... it was a coherent phenomenon, consistently just under the surface of my nominal life for all those decades."

4. Lucy Sante [54:20]:

   "It's who I am, and if you don't like it, tough. It's the truth. I am manifesting the truth."

5. Lucy Sante [62:02]:

   "When there is nothing left to protect, the result is freedom."

Conclusion

In this deeply personal and insightful episode, Lucy Sante takes listeners through her journey of self-discovery, professional growth, and courageous embrace of her true identity. Her story underscores the importance of authenticity, resilience, and the transformative power of living one's truth. Debbie Millman's empathetic interviewing illuminates the complexities of gender identity and the pursuit of personal fulfillment, making this episode a compelling listen for anyone interested in the intersections of design, creativity, and human experience.