Carol Leifer

Summary

Design Matters with Debbie Millman: Episode Featuring Carol Leifer

Release Date: April 7, 2025

Overview

In this episode of Design Matters with Debbie Millman, host Debbie Millman engages in a deep and insightful conversation with Carol Leifer, a renowned stand-up comedian, award-winning comedy writer, and producer. Carol shares her extensive journey in the comedy world, offering valuable lessons on resilience, creativity, and the nitty-gritty of making it in show business. This episode not only delves into Carol’s illustrious career but also explores her latest venture—a book aimed at helping individuals craft funny speeches for various occasions.

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Early Inspirations and Beginnings in Comedy

Influences and Family Background

Carol Leifer begins by reflecting on her early inspirations, notably citing Wayne Newton as her favorite performer growing up. She emphasizes the importance of enthusiasm in performance, stating:

"He always gave it 1000%. That was very clear even on TV. And that really resonated with me that if you want to be a performer, you got to go out there with 1,000%" [00:05:14].

Carol grew up in a household rich with humor, thanks to her parents, Anna and Seymour. Her father, an optometrist, was the "king of the joke tellers," using humor as a bridge to connect with patients and others. This environment fostered Carol's love for comedy from a young age.

First Steps into Comedy

Carol recounts her initial foray into the comedy scene, influenced by her Uncle Bernie, a writer for Let's Make a Deal. Her first audition was a disaster:

"I made the appointment with the producer... I ended up a half an hour late... I broke every rule of what you do when you want a job." [00:10:48].

However, this experience did not deter her. Instead, it reinforced her determination to succeed in the face of rejection, a recurring theme throughout her career.

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College Years and Formative Experiences

Binghamton College and Open Mic Nights

At SUNY Binghamton, Carol majored in English and Theater Arts, initially contemplating a career in comedy writing before fully embracing stand-up. A pivotal moment was her friendship with Paul Reiser, a comedy genius who encouraged her to perform at open mic nights. This led to her first successful stand-up performance, where she realized her passion for making people laugh.

"The first time I went on at this audition night, I just killed. And then the second time, I completely bombed." [00:22:11].

Building Resilience

Carol highlights the unpredictable nature of stand-up comedy, where even seasoned performers like Larry David can have off nights. Her insights into handling varied audience reactions demonstrate her deep understanding of the craft:

"As a comedian, you have to learn how to navigate all those incredibly potentially difficult situations." [00:24:16].

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Breaking into the Industry

Landing Television Appearances

Carol's big break came in 1982 when she performed on The David Letterman Show. This rapid ascent from open mic stages to national television was a testament to her talent and perseverance. She reflects on her relationship with Letterman and how his support was instrumental in her success:

"After my first time on the show, he said, whenever you're ready with new material, you call us and you come right on. That doesn't happen at a lot of places." [00:35:58].

Facing Rejection and Persisting

Despite her successes, Carol faced numerous rejections, particularly from The Tonight Show. She auditioned 22 times before finally securing a spot three months before Johnny Carson's retirement. Her approach to rejection is both pragmatic and empowering:

"My theory, my motto is always take no for an answer because you're going to get a lot of rejection." [00:59:xx].

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Writing and Expanding Horizons

Saturday Night Live and Beyond

In the mid-1980s, Carol auditioned for Saturday Night Live (SNL), where she was offered a writing position instead of a performing role. She describes her time at SNL during a tumultuous period dubbed "The Weird Year" due to the unconventional mix of talent:

"It was the weirdest year, with Lauren coming back after not being there for five years and the cast of this really melange of odd, great performers." [00:45:17].

Despite the challenges, Carol values the experience for the opportunity to write alongside legendary figures like Jack Handy and Robert Smigel.

Contributions to Iconic Shows

Carol’s writing prowess extended to top-tier shows such as Seinfeld, where she penned memorable episodes inspired by real-life experiences. Her ability to distill everyday humor into relatable content is a hallmark of her writing style.

"The germ of any sitcom is really so much in the idea... make it clear and quick." [00:51:06].

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Current Projects and Philosophies

Latest Book: "How to Write a Funny Speech"

During the writers' strike, Carol co-authored a book with Rick Mitchell aimed at helping individuals craft humorous speeches for events like weddings and graduations. The book provides templates, jokes, and step-by-step guidance, emphasizing brevity and personal anecdotes over formality.

"We wanted to make it really short and sweet. You don't need Encyclopedia Britannica." [00:62:43].

Resilience and Advocacy

Carol underscores the importance of resilience in any creative field. Her personal mantra—embracing rejection as part of the journey—serves as motivational advice for aspiring comedians and writers alike.

"You can control what you can control, and you can't control what you can't control." [00:55:59].

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Memorable Quotes and Insights

• On Rejection and Persistence:

  "There is so much rejection along the way. If you can accept that you're going to be rejected a lot, I feel like you'll sail because people stop because of the rejection." [00:60:05].

• On Crafting Humor:

  "Funny in a speech really goes a long way. People can tend to drone on and on about the person. If you don't add some humor, it makes it boring." [00:65:42].

• On Pitching Ideas:

  "The pitching process at Seinfeld was you go into Larry and Jerry's office, and you bring in hopefully 20 ideas because the odds of them liking one or two are higher." [00:51:06].

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Conclusion

Carol Leifer’s conversation with Debbie Millman on Design Matters offers a comprehensive look into the life of a resilient and creative individual who has navigated the ups and downs of the comedy industry with grace and humor. Her experiences—from early inspirations and overcoming rejection to writing for iconic television shows and authoring a practical guidebook—are not only inspiring but also provide actionable insights for anyone looking to make their mark in creative fields. Carol’s unwavering belief in taking rejection in stride and continuously advocating for oneself stands as a testament to her enduring success in the ever-evolving landscape of show business.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• “He always gave it 1000%. That was very clear even on TV.” – Carol Leifer [00:05:14]

• “I broke every rule of what you do when you want a job.” – Carol Leifer [00:10:48]

• “The first time I went on at this audition night, I just killed.” – Carol Leifer [00:22:11]

• “You can control what you can control, and you can't control what you can't control.” – Carol Leifer [00:55:59]

• “There is so much rejection along the way.” – Carol Leifer [00:60:05]

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About Carol Leifer

Carol Leifer is a celebrated comedian, author, and writer with a career spanning over four decades. She has penned episodes for iconic television shows like Seinfeld and Curb Your Enthusiasm, and her recent book offers guidance on crafting humorous speeches for various life events. Carol continues to influence the comedy landscape with her sharp wit and profound insights into the art of humor and resilience.

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For more information about Carol Leifer and her work, visit caraleifer.com.

Transcript

[Carol Leifer]

You know, there's the saying, don't take no for an answer. My theory, my motto is always take no for an answer because you're going to get a lot of rejection. There is so much rejection along the way.

[Debbie Millman]

From the TED Audio Collective, this is Design Matters with Debbie Millman. On Design Matters, Debbie talks with some of the most creative people in the world about what they do, how they got to be who and what they're thinking about and working on. On this episode, Carol Leifer talks about her long career in comedy and about getting work.

[Carol Leifer]

I'm not thrown off by rejection. I know that it's part of the process.

[Kara Leifer]

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[Kara Leifer]

Can a person learn to be funny? Can someone who has never landed a joke successfully stand up in front of a crowd, tell a funny story and bring the house down? I'm asking for a friend. Fortunately, my guest this week has some encouraging answers and she knows of what she speaks. Kara Leifer is a veteran stand up comedian with a boatload of comedy specials under her belt. She is also an award winning comedy writer and producer. She's written for Saturday Night Live, Seinfeld, Curb youb Enthusiasm, Modern Family, and she just won an Emmy for her work on hacks. She's also written several books. Her latest is how to write a funny speech for a wedding, bar mitzvah graduation and every other event you didn't want to go to in the first place, which she co wrote with Rick Mitchell. She's here to talk about her new book, her writing and about her four decades in comedy. Cara Leifer, welcome to Design Matters.

[Carol Leifer]

Thank you. Debbie. Oh, I loved your intro. Yes, yes. I was impressed with myself.

[Kara Leifer]

Good, good. I've been, I've been a fan for almost as long as you've been performing.

[Carol Leifer]

Wow.

[Kara Leifer]

You were one of the first women comics I ever was aware of and I in my mind have set the bar for everyone since.

[Carol Leifer]

Oh, thank you.

[Kara Leifer]

One thing that I read about you that was really surprising was I understand that your favorite performer growing up was Wayne Newton, who you described as entertainment with a capital E. What was it about him that captured your imagination at that time?

[Carol Leifer]

Wow. I don't remember saying that. But hey, I know you do your research. You know, Wayne, Wayne Newton was on the Ed Sullivan Show a lot, which was a show people kids of my generation remember as being a hotspot of entertainment at the time. And I think when I was would watch Wayne Newton, you know, he always gave it 1000%. That was very clear even on TV. And that really resonated with me that if you want to be a performer, you got to go out there with 1,000%. And not only that, but I remember him singing Donker Shane. So Do I? Yeah, right. He always sang it with a lot of joy. So the combination of enthusiasm and joy to me was something that I took as a big lesson about show business. I had an acting teacher way back when, it wasn't about stand up, but she said, you know, if you're having fun, the audience is having fun. So that's a very important element of performing that I've taken with me all these years.

[Kara Leifer]

You grew up on Long island, as did I. You grew up in a household of. We have so much in common. I mean, except for the fan part.

[Carol Leifer]

What part of Long Island?

[Kara Leifer]

East Northport. I went. I lived there from sid grade to 12th grade. Also a young Jewish girl growing up on Long Island. Interesting times back then, in the 70s. And yeah, in any case, you grew up on Long island in a household of academics. Your mom was a psychologist, your dad was an optometrist. But I believe it was your Uncle Bernie who was a writer for let's Make a Deal. Who was your first link to show business and what impact did he have on your understanding of a potential career in entertainment?

[Carol Leifer]

My Uncle Bernie, may his memory be a blessing. Well, to my little neck of the woods in Long island, someone being having a job in the entertainment business was a faraway dream. I didn't know anybody who made their living in show business, but my Uncle Bernie, he had been an actor and had had some small roles in New York City. And then he moved to California and he got a job writing for let's Make a Deal. And people was like, well, what did he write? Well, you know, he wrote Monty Hall's Patter. He also interviewed the. The line of people outside. He would kind of suss them out who'd be a good contestant. But basically it was a good job. It was a great job that he had for as many years as let's Make It's still on with Wayne Brady. But it was job, not only job security, but it also sounded as a kid very exotic to me. I mean, my grandmother had a photo of his credit, you know, written by Bernie Gould, you know, in an 8 by 10 frame. Everybody was so proud of my Uncle Bernie. So I always felt like, well, you know, my Uncle Bernie is in show business, so maybe I could be in show business. And we went out to California, right on vacation with my parents. Right when I wanted to start being comedian, I was interested in it. And he took us to the improv and we saw a show there and it just became more of a reality than a dream. Knowing that here I Had this uncle living in California and doing it for a long time and making a very nice living at it. My Uncle Bernie also was the one who, when I decided I wanted to be in show business or be a comedian and I needed a day job, he set me up with someone to meet in the city, a producer. And I was like, oh, great. So I made the appointment with the producer. It was raining that day on Long Island. I was late on the Long island railroad. I don't know that I brought an umbrella or not.

[Kara Leifer]

You know, I read that you were soaked.

[Carol Leifer]

Actually, yes, I didn't bring an umbrella. Yeah. I do remember all the details of this nightmare. And I think I wound up a half an hour late for this meeting. I was drenched, maybe didn't bring a raincoat, and then proceeded to talk all about myself and what I had done at SUNY Binghamton, Harper College. And I look back now and it's like I broke every rule of what you do when you want a job. Getting there late. You know, it was no secret. It's probably going to rain the next day. Could have looked at the forecast plan for that, brought an umbrella. And also while I was there, it's a job interview. You're there to find out what they need, what they're looking for. It's not a time to rattle off your resume and what you think you should be doing. So I thanked Uncle Bernie for the contact, but I don't think I handled it quite well.

[Kara Leifer]

You described your parents, Anna and Seymour, as the original comedy enthusiasts, and regularly along with them, listened to comedy albums at home. I also understand your father actually collected jokes.

[Carol Leifer]

Mm.

[Kara Leifer]

So why did he do that?

[Carol Leifer]

Well, my dad was king of the joke tellers, as we call them in our community, the tribe of Jewish people. The Tumler he was always ready with. He liked being funny. And more than that, as a kid, I saw him tell jokes as a bridge to people. If he didn't know somebody particularly well, meeting somebody, pretty soon he'd be telling a joke. I worked for him at his optometry office. I also like to add, my father was an optometrist, and, of course, his name was Seymour. Perfect. Talk about predetermination. But what he would do with jokes is when patients were nervous or had some anxiety for an eye exam, he would tell a joke, and it was literally like, give me a subject. I got a joke on it. My dad, really, his dream was to be a comedian or a comedy writer. So that I got to fulfill his dream was so exciting for him. I always felt sorry that for his generation, people would always ask him, say, seymour, you're so funny. How come you never pursued it? And he would always say, you know, I had to make a living. And I think for that generation of my parents generation, really, show business was a very far off dream and seemed irresponsible in a way at the time. Like, you weren't serious about providing for your family. And I look back now, and I think my dad could have had a bit of maybe jealousy at my career, but he was there for me a thousand percent. When I did my first Letterman, Debbie, you know, he wanted to tape it on a VCR. A VCR at that time was like $1,000.

[Kara Leifer]

Oh, I remember. Yep, yep.

[Carol Leifer]

And he ran out to Crazy Eddies or wherever it was, and, you know, he got a VCR to be able to tape me. So I always love that he had a love of humor. There were comedy albums playing in my house all the time. And what I also love about when I grew up, when we grew up, was there was a community to listening to entertainment. What my parents listened to, everybody in the house listened to, and thank God for me, they had great comedy taste. Now, you know, it's everybody with their own earphones and listening to their own thing. Back then, it was nice to hear laughter together in the house. So Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner's album, Vaughn Meter's album. I mean, I'm going way back, but these were the comedy giants of the time. Bill Cosby and Bob Newhart. And besides Wayne Newton on the Ed Sullivan show were the great comics. Rodney Dangerfield, whose young comedian special I eventually was pleased to be on, and Jackie Mason and Jackie Vernon. I mean, I know I'm pulling out a lot of names that people may not be familiar with, but to my generation, those were the kings of comedy.

[Kara Leifer]

I can really relate. My dad wanted to be a football player, but became a pharmacist because he also had to make a living. And I worked in his pharmacy and did all kinds of fun things with the signage. As I was learning to be a designer and whatnot. He introduced me, actually, to George Carlin, who I was just enthralled by, and was enthralled by it for the rest of his life. I thought he was a genius.

[Carol Leifer]

Yeah.

[Kara Leifer]

When did you begin to think you were funny? Did your parents tell you you were funny? Did you believe that you were funny? Talk to me about how you even began to consider a life in or with comedy.

[Carol Leifer]

Yeah, my parents gave me a lot of feedback As a kid that I was funny. I always loved to perform. I mean, I used to put on shows in our basement.

[Kara Leifer]

Yeah. And didn't you go around the neighborhood and see tickets?

[Carol Leifer]

I would, yes. Yes. And I remember one time, our across the street neighbor, you know, they were probably like 5 cents a ticket. You know, he was like, oh, I'll buy them all. You know, he felt, you know, thinking that maybe I wasn't getting a lot of business around the block so then I could have free tickets to give to people. So I always got a lot of feedback early on that I was funny. Yeah. Especially starting school, being in shows, being in skits at summer camp, that kind of became the thing I was known for.

[Kara Leifer]

Luckily, I know you just won an Emmy award and a Golden Globe Award and have so many other awards in your arsenal, but I understand that your Hammy award that you won at summer camp is your prized possession.

[Carol Leifer]

That really is.

[Kara Leifer]

What's a Hammy Award and what did you win it for?

[Carol Leifer]

Well, the Hammy award at Sunset Ranch Camp in Orford, New Hampshire, was offered to the camp who had been in the most comedy skits and shows around camp. Of course, hammy, deriving from the word ham, meaning someone who steals the spotlight at a drop of a hat. So to me, as a kid, that was a big deal at my summer camp. You know, the proud recipient of, you know, it was a akin to winning the Mark Twain Prize, my summer camp. So that was. That was another piece of validation that I needed to pursue my life in comedy.

[Kara Leifer]

You went to college. You went to Binghamton College, State school. I chose Albany, by the way.

[Carol Leifer]

I almost went there.

[Kara Leifer]

Your dad told you that you could go to any college you wanted as long as it was a state school. Same. Same year you majored in English and theater arts. Were you thinking about going into acting or writing as opposed to, at that point, becoming a comedian?

[Carol Leifer]

I was thinking about comedy writing. I remember on my dorm floor, there was, like a poster for a Norman Lear award where you could maybe get to write or have an internship on a show. But once I started to do the theater, it really made me feel like I would like to pursue this as a career. I mean, look, I still had a lot of my family ethos in me, which was, could I really make a living as an actor or a comedy performer? But I knew right away that that's what I wanted to do. I knew then that I definitely wanted to take that route. And I started doing a little bit of kind of what I like to think of. Now is stand up. In college, one of my friends at school name is Jim Matthews. He used to. He was a singer and he used to put on these cabaret shows. And he had three gals behind him doing patter and funny things. And I was one of his. He was Matt James and the Hollywood Flames.

[Kara Leifer]

Wow.

[Carol Leifer]

And I was one of the Flames. And then I just started to do in our lounge hall. I remember doing a couple of skits, you know, kind of as standup. So I was always getting very good positive feedback, I think, as any comedian does, because it's so hard to get up there and be in one and try to make people laugh. If you haven't had a lot of feedback, that that's maybe gonna work. Yeah, that might be the last thing you wanna do.

[Kara Leifer]

I wanna talk about some of the feedback that you got in a minute, because I wanna introduce some of the characters that began to give you feedback. At Binghamton, you met a person who became a real defining figure and friend in your life. Paul Reiser against comedy genius Paul Reiser of All about yout Fame and so much more. And I understand he was in the Hinman Little Theater, your dorm's theater group. What was your first impression of him?

[Carol Leifer]

My first impression of Paul was, he's the funniest guy I've ever met. And maybe to this day, Debbie, he might still have that title. He is so naturally funny. And so when I was in the Hinman Little Theater, I just was stupefied at how funny he was and not only that, how we connected. He also came from a comedy family, and his family played the 2000-year-old man record over and over so we could practically together lip sync the whole album. So I love that we shared that same passion for comedy and knew the same comedians. It's so funny. He was just on a podcast yesterday with Jason Alexander, and I saw that he was the guest before me, and I just burst in. I was like, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I like to tell the story of how if I hadn't met Paul, maybe I wouldn't have found this exact path into comedy. Because what happened was Paul just mentioned in my junior year, he was a year older than me. He was like, you know, during the summer, I like to go down to New York City to these comedy clubs that are springing up, open mic nights, and anybody can go on. You just get a number during the day, tells you what time you can go on. And I do five minutes of material. He said, think you should try it It'd be fun. And that's how I started doing comedy. I went to an open mic night and I got my number and that's when I knew that I wanted to pursue standup comedy. Because as opposed to acting, Debbie, you know, and it's still what I love about stand up acting. It's like such a process with the headshots and you got to go to acting school and then you got to audition and, you know, it's such a rigmarole of avenues that you need to take stand up comedy. You go to an open mic night, they tell you when you're on and you're on and it's just like it was such a direct route into show business that I just loved it and it's why I still love it. Nobody how far technology goes. It's still the same process. You go on stage and I forgot, is it Malcolm? Who's Gladwell?

[Kara Leifer]

10,000 hours.

[Carol Leifer]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And you go on and you go on and you go on and that's how you get good. And the first time I went on at this audition night, I mean, I just killed. And I thought, oh my God, this is so amazing. And how easy. Oh, this is incredible. And it wasn't until the second time that I went back that I completely bombed so badly that I had invited friends from Binghamton to come. Because the first time I killed and I literally had a tape recorder on the table so I could hear my set where my friends were sitting and playing the tape back. You can hear one of my friends from college during my horrific set going, just, just mortified at how badly I was doing.

[Kara Leifer]

Now, was the material different from the first time you performed or and then the second time, or was it the audience or was it the delivery?

[Carol Leifer]

It was the thing that you learn about standup comedy. It was the same material. It's not just your material. It's when you go on, what kind of audience you're playing to, how much have they been drinking? Do you have? What comedians know is called the check spot, where all the checks go down at a certain point and the audience focus there is directed away to getting their credit card out, especially who you follow. If you follow someone whose material is the 180 of yours, if it's whatever, filthy or aggressive and you go up after that, it's, you know, it's very hard. I don't think people realize how important it is, the position you are in a comedy show. So it was the same material. It was just like I learned the Hard way. Oh, it's not always. It's not always like that. And as a comedian, you have to learn how to navigate all those incredibly potentially difficult situations.

[Kara Leifer]

I was surprised to read that you wrote or said that Friday is actually the worst day to do a standup comic set. Why?

[Carol Leifer]

It's actually Friday second show. Because when you think about it, people have been working all week, so, you know, an 8 o'clock show, that's okay. They can handle that and put their tiredness and their crankiness away. But Friday second show, I almost named my corporation when I incorporated that Friday second show. Because it's notoriously the worst show of the week. Because people are exhausted at, you know, 11 o'clock at night. They've had it, they've probably been drinking a lot. And it was always, get ready for Friday, second show. Because it's not Saturday first show. That's for sure. To this day, it's like that I just performed at the Barns of wolf trap in D.C. and second show Friday is always, always the toughest one.

[Kara Leifer]

How do you become funnier?

[Carol Leifer]

Funnier? That's interesting. I don't know if one. Well, we'll talk later about my book where Rick and I try to teach people how to be funny. And it's not that hard to be funny in a speech, but I think for comedians, I don't know that you get funnier as opposed to, you gotta keep writing and writing and writing. And I learned a big lesson from Jerry Seinfeld when I came up. You know, when we were comedians just screwing around all day, he would always, at some point say, you know, guys, I got to go back and write. And he would make himself write for an hour every day. He still writes for an hour every day. So I don't know if it's funnier, but if you keep writing and writing and going on stage and trying to mine this material, really work it out, you'll find that you can make it funnier just by working on it. I'm sure it's the same with design. The more you work on something, the better it's going to get because of your. The time you put into it.

[Kara Leifer]

Yes and no. I mean, you do have to continually be improving your skills. I came upon. You were interviewed by Howard Stern, and he told you he was talking about just how successful you are and how talented. And he said that you must be an ultra sensitive human being to be a comedy writer. And in many ways, you also have to be an ultra sensitive human being to be able to be a Designer in order to impart messages to other people that they'll understand and feel something about. But there's a big difference between making something that anonymously goes out into the world and standing up in front of a room full or a audience full, a venue full, a stadium full of people, and have to be able to understand this sort of moment that you're in and share something with them that they all think is funny.

[Carol Leifer]

Yeah, well, it's a lot of trial and error, you know, when I go out to try new material. And my favorite night to do it is Kevin Nealon has a night at the Laugh Factory here in Los Angeles called New Material Night. And you literally have to, you know, you have to go up with new material, not the tried and true stuff. And it's fantastic because the audience is expecting that. Normally, when you try new material as a comedian, you have to kind of fit it in between tried and true things because you never know how it's going to work. And usually what I think is just fascinating. So many times the thing you think, oh, this is killer. This is going to, you know, be my newest, best joke can die. And then the thing that you thought was maybe a kernel or really not anything becomes the biggest laugh. So I don't think comedians get funnier. It's just working on stuff that you'll hit the sweet spot with enough stuff. Because out of 10 jokes that I normally try that are new, I'm lucky if two or three make the cut.

[Kara Leifer]

So you and Paul are auditioning. You audition for the Comic Strip and Catch A Rising Star. Turns out that Jerry Seinfeld was the emcee at Comic Strip.

[Carol Leifer]

Yes.

[Kara Leifer]

And Larry David was the emcee at Catch a Rising Star. So basically, you've known both of these men for your and their entire careers. Now, I read that their nickname for you is Mommy. Is that true?

[Carol Leifer]

Yes. When I hang out with my comedian buddies, they call me Mommy. But the origin of it is it's the mommy. Do you remember when Reagan used to call Nancy Mommy? That's what it started from. But still to this point, yeah. All my close comedy friends call me Mommy. Mommy, are you free for dinner this Thursday? It's going to be you, me, Larry, you know, of course, you being their mommy. Yeah. So that is. That is the genesis of my mommy name. But, you know, going back to Jerry and Larry, the night that I passed the audition at the Comic Strip, Jerry Seinfeld was the emcee who put me through. He called it the trilogy of new regulars. It was Me, Paul Reiser, and a guy named Rich hall, who I just worked with this past weekend. Most people will remember he used to do Sniglets. So it is amazing that, you know, he passed the audition in 1977. I mean, that we go that far back. But putting me through the audition, Jerry, that was a big deal. I mean, he could have said, you know, and the same thing with Larry David. You know, he put me through the audition. So that was a big seal of approval, as time has told us, even bigger seal of approval in terms of what they've accomplished. But I always think if I didn't meet Paul, if I didn't go to the Comic Strip that night Jerry was emceeing or catch Rising Star the night Larry David was there, who knows what would have happened. I mean, I would have pursued a career in comedy. But that route was very step. You knew the steps, and I always liked that about it.

[Kara Leifer]

Did any of you have a sense, as you were all together, coming up in the comedy world at the same time, did you have a sense that you were all on the verge?

[Carol Leifer]

I don't think so. I don't think any of us felt like. I feel like the second you feel like you're on the verge, like the verge is not going to happen. Just because I think we all knew then you needed to focus on the work. And we were going on every night, and then it became every night, a few sets a week. So I think we all knew that we were getting better. I mean, Larry David. Not necessarily, because I always tell this story. He was always Larry David since day one. So as a standup, if he had a spot at the improv at like 8:20, and you were going on, your spot was 8:40, you'd get there at 8:20. Because at any moment, Larry David could walk off because somebody in the audience wasn't laughing or said a snide remark or whatever. He'd be like, you know, that's it. And he'd just walk off. So, you know, I'm sure people, your audience is not surprised to hear that, you know, that he was a little sensitive about his stuff and he didn't care if he walked off. And they still put him back on because everybody knew he had that germ of brilliance. But yeah, at that time, I mean, the Tonight show was the big deal to get. I think we all wanted to get on the Tonight show, but it still felt like a big dream to make it, to achieve that kind of status.

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[Kara Leifer]

I believe that your first ever standup gig was As a College sophomore in 1976. And then your big time gig was opening for Peter Allen in 1980.

[Carol Leifer]

Yes.

[Kara Leifer]

But by 1982, you were already performing on the David Letterman show.

[Carol Leifer]

Yes.

[Kara Leifer]

That's a pretty fast trajectory for anyone, let alone somebody in show business. How did you meet David Letterman?

[Carol Leifer]

It's Kind of a Funny Story. You know, back standup is so different now with the advent of social media and comedians being able to generate a fan base online. You know, when I was coming up, there wasn't that way to promote yourself. You were really at the mercy of shows and TV shows and showcases. So in 1980, I got onto this contest called the New York Laugh Op. And it was very popular at the time. And it was a big deal to even be one of the five people performing in it. And they shot it, I mean, for Showtime at the Copacabana. And I love telling the story that, you know, of the five people, I came in fourth and Eddie Murphy came in fifth.

[Kara Leifer]

Good company.

[Carol Leifer]

Yeah. Anyway, it was on Showtime, and as I found out, David Letterman saw me on that Showtime special and then recommended me to the Tonight Show. So I spoke to the talent coordinator of the Tonight Show. He told me that David Letterman had seen me and I was going to send him a tape of my standup. And they passed. I didn't get the Tonight Show. But then two years later, when David Letterman got his late night show, they just called and they booked me out of the shoot. The first time I met him was the first time I did the show. And that led to him giving me an open door policy with the show. After my first time in the show, he said, whenever you're ready with new material, you call us and you come right on. You know, that doesn't happen at a. So I'm always very grateful for his support. And it went on for me to do his show 25 times. Yeah.

[Kara Leifer]

More than any other female comic in history.

[Carol Leifer]

Yeah. So it's something that I'm still very grateful for his support.

[Kara Leifer]

It took a lot longer for you to actually get onto the Tonight Show. Why? Yes, why is that?

[Carol Leifer]

Well, there are a couple of reasons. I think the Tonight show viewed me as a, quote, Letterman act, which stood in my way somewhat. But also, I don't know, they were very squirrely about women comics. And, you know, I auditioned for the show 22 times.

[Kara Leifer]

I know. I mean, the resilience there, Carol.

[Carol Leifer]

I mean, I swear, Debbie, I just felt like after, you know, time 14, I felt like, well, this is some kind of practical joke. But if they want to see me, I'm going on anyway, happy for them to audition me. And every time, I always thought, I don't know, maybe this time I'll wear a dress. Maybe this time I'll do this. Certain material. It was. I just couldn't crack it. And I think by the time I did it, which was actually three months before Johnny retired, I think it felt like enough already. We got to put her on. I mean, after all this time, it's crazy. And I think also what helped me was Jay Leno was guest hosting a lot and had me on. And I think that they saw that I had done well with Jay hosting. So I felt like it was a matter of, yeah, it's about time. We can't say no anymore. Which, you know, thank God I did it before Johnny retired because that had always been one of my big dreams.

[Kara Leifer]

As you were coming up, you were one of the very, very few female comics, and comedy cubeculars were a challenge. But I understand that some of your male comic friends helped you learn how to take control of the room with certain hints that they suggested you share with those hecklers. And I'm wondering if you can share some of those.

[Carol Leifer]

Well, I always tell people, in whatever business you're in, the opposite sex is a your enemy. They are actually an ally because you have a different filter than the other sex. So, for example, yes, I was getting heckled mercilessly by at the time, at the time by young men, because I was young. So I'd be standing by the door of audience walking in, and If I saw 4, 3 or 4 kind of frat boys walking in, haven't had a beer or two, I. I just could call it, these guys are going to be trouble for me. And nine times out of 10, they were. And they would heckle me. And I had no idea what to say. Also, as a young, you know, I didn't have my stripes as a veteran yet of knowing how to handle it, and I. I couldn't. I couldn't take it. So one night, one of the other comics, male comics, came over to me, said, I see you're having trouble consistently with these young guys. I really think I can help you out. And I was like, oh, please, I'm dying up there. He said, when guys heckle you, all you need to say is, okay, guys, so where are the dates tonight? Where are they? The gals park in the car. And that shut them up right away because I went to their Achilles heel of being alone. So I certainly didn't Know that as a woman. So it took the perspective of a guy to point out where they were going to be weak. And conversely, women see things in the audience that men don't see. So I always tell people, you know, rely on all your colleagues because they can have certain info about situations that you don't have and you have about other situations that they don't.

[Kara Leifer]

What gives people in an audience, in a comedian set, the sense that they are allowed to heckle like, you don't. People don't do that most. I haven't ever witnessed it in, like, a musical performance or a Broadway show or, like, why comedy? Why do people feel like they're allowed to do that?

[Carol Leifer]

Well, it's all because of the alcohol industry, Debbie. People get this liquid courage, and they feel like, for whatever reason, they want to participate. What is interesting to me as a comedian is you're sort of on equal ground with the heckler. Oddly, the audience doesn't immediately react like, hey, you, shut up. They're like, okay, what's the comic? All right, now it's a match. What is the comic going to say about this heckler? So it kind of becomes fair game. Weirdly, I didn't expect that in stand up. So you really got to get your. Can I curse? No, of course. You really got to get your shit together, because it happens. And the audience is also waiting to see how you're going to handle it. You know, Richard Belzer, the late Richard Belzer gave me a great piece of advice coming up, and I think of it in two specific regards to stand up. He said, when you get up there, you're the pilot of the plane. So however you're reacting is a lot how the audience is going to react. So it not only comes in handy, that advice with hecklers, you got to look like you're in charge, but also a lot of times you feel, as comedian, I'm not really doing well. This isn't really going over. So instead of kind of freaking out, if you continue your set as if everything is going fine, the audience kind of comes to with that observation as well. So I'm sure even with people in other lines of business, when you're speaking to people, a lot of times they're enjoying it. They might not be that vocal about it, but you know, you're the captain of the ship, so they'll take your cues a lot of Times.

[Kara Leifer]

By the mid-1980s, you had an opportunity to audition to be a performer on Saturday Night Live, and Al Franken came to your standup audition with Jim Downey, who was the head writer at the time. And they loved your standup, but offered you a writing job. Did you have any reluctance to taking a writing job versus a performing job?

[Carol Leifer]

No, no, not at all. I just felt like, look, SNL is its own institution and has been since it's been on. It was also the year that Lorne Michaels was going to come back.

[Kara Leifer]

You were there during what has been described now in the docuseries on Peacock about snl. The fourth episode focuses on that time, and it's titled the Weird Year. Would you concur?

[Carol Leifer]

Absolutely. It was the weirdest year, with Lauren coming back after not being there for five years and the cast of this really melange of odd, great performers in their own right, but a weird mixture. I mean, Randy quaid, Robert Downey Jr. Joan Cuseff, Dennis Miller, Michael Hall.

[Kara Leifer]

Michael Hall, Yeah.

[Carol Leifer]

Yeah. Anthony Michael Hall. It was just the strangest amalgam of talent, and we just never got our footing that year. We just never were able to find the sweet spot. So it was weird because everybody expected, oh, there's gonna be a breeze. SNL is back with Lauren. But it was a strange time. I mean, I'm grateful for the experience because I learned sketch writing. I wrote with some of the best writers around. I mean, the writers room was filled with a murderous row of talent. You know, Jack Handy and John Swartzwelder, who went on to write for the Simpsons and on and on. Robert Smigel was a Donald Vello. So it was really terrific for White in that room. So I'll always be grateful that I got the opportunity and I got a lot of sketches on. So that was also very satisfying. That, quote, weird role you've written for.

[Kara Leifer]

The Academy Awards, I believe it's 10 times more than any other female writer. You were even nominated for an Emmy for your writing on the Oscars.

[Carol Leifer]

Yes. Yeah.

[Kara Leifer]

Is it a given that you're invited back year after year, or do you still have to keep pitching yourself to get a place at that table?

[Carol Leifer]

Oh, you definitely have to keep pitching yourself, that's for sure. It's not ever a done deal.

[Kara Leifer]

Any particular favorite moments that you've written that still sort of makes you smile?

[Carol Leifer]

Yes. Well, I wrote for Billy Crystal one year, and it was the year that there was the. The missing Oscar had been stolen, and Erykah Badu came out with this very tall headpiece, and Billy was like, oh, we have to find some joke for this. So it was backstage. What do you guys got? And I said, maybe that's where the lost Oscars. So, you know, he went out and did it and sc. It was fantastic.

[Kara Leifer]

How much writing is done on the fly like that? When you're in the midst of, like, one of the biggest nights in Hollywood.

[Carol Leifer]

A lot of it, because you want to be in the moment and present. There is so much of that writing that's done on the fly. You know, this year, Conan did the show. I was lucky enough to write for the show, but, you know, he had his own team of writers from mostly from his shows. So he had not only a comfort level with that group, but they're some of the best writers around. And I was part. A lot of times, I'm part of the show team where you write around the host, the presenter patter, things like that. So, yeah, every year the job is up in the air. But I've been lucky that I've contributed and they've had me back. Actually, this time was my 11th time.

[Kara Leifer]

I love that you keep doing it, and I'm glad that they keep bringing you back because.

[Carol Leifer]

Yes, me too.

[Kara Leifer]

You began writing for Seinfeld in 1993, the television show Seinfeld. Urban mythology has it that you were not only a writer on the show, but also the real life inspiration for the character Elaine Bennis. Do you really dance that poorly?

[Carol Leifer]

No, no, not at all. I'm quite the dancer. You know, I dated Jerry in the early days, and since then we stayed friends. So I think people make that comparison because of that connection. But other than that, you know, that's where the connection ends. People always ask, oh, did this happen to you? This happened to you? You know, with Elaine stories, I mean, things, you know, like the episode I did, the beard where Elaine thinks there are skinny mirrors.

[Kara Leifer]

I love that episode because I agree. I agree there were skinny mirrors at Barney's. I love that. I love that episode.

[Carol Leifer]

Yes. You know, that's something that happened to me that became an Elaine story. Also. One of the Elaine stories I had in the Lip Reader was she pretended she was deaf to a car service driver. And that developed because in my standup days, when a car service guy would bring me to the airport and it was five in the morning, I'd have, like, Chatty Cathy as the car service driver. So that was the beauty of Seinfeld. He always took it one step further instead of enduring what I did in real life, like, please, in the backseat, please shut up thinking this. I always wished I could pretend I was deaf and we could do that on the show.

[Kara Leifer]

You said that Working on the show taught you the importance of pitching ideas. In what way?

[Carol Leifer]

Well, the germ of any sitcom is really so much in the idea. It's quick and it's succinct. The pitching process at Seinfeld was you go into Larry and Jerry's office, and they shared an office. I bring in hopefully 20 ideas because the odds of them became higher, of them liking one or two. And when I went in to pitch, like, for example, Elaine thinks the Korean manicurists are talking about her behind her back in Korean. That became a storyline. And it's pretty quick and it's pretty simple. You don't pitch it like, so Elaine goes to have a manicure, her nails look horrible, and she thinks about what color she's going to get today. You cut to the chase. And I think that's important in anything you do when you pitch an idea to make it clear and quick. But, you know, I knew that when I pitch something like that, that was going to be, yes, yes, we're going to do that. That became something they immediately loved. And of course, as a writer going into pitch, I was happy about that, because when you go in to pitch and then you wanted at least one thing to score. So pitching to me still to this day is a very quick and succinct idea that hopefully in telling it, somebody laughs. I had a friend who was in banking, he's gay. He could not be out at the time in 93. And he said to me, my boss invited me to the Hollywood bowl, will you come as my date? And I was like, sure. And that became the episode the Beard. The Beard, yeah. So a lot of, you know, we were always taking real life situations and putting them into the show. But when you pitched it, you know, go in quick, because if you didn't, also, it kind of kills the germ of the idea. If you put too much fluff around it. You don't need the fluff.

[Kara Leifer]

Well, it seems like you were taking all this sort of salesmanship of the pitch out of the pitch and just. Just relying on a good idea.

[Carol Leifer]

Yes. And there were always ideas that I think of that I can't even use now. You know, even that Curb is over because it was the same process pitching to Larry David with Curb. I went to a doctor the other day, a dermatologist who was recommended as the person, and he was very tatted up. And it really made me think about, do I want to do this? I don't know. Already the best. But these tats are really throwing me off that. To me, I was dying to pitch that to Larry David, because that is very. Even more specific than Seinfeld. A very Curb Larry David idea even. You know, when someone's on their laptop and you go over to them and they close their laptop. Yeah, that. To me, that is definitely something I would be pitching right now if Curb were still. Absolutely.

[Kara Leifer]

I loved your performance as the mother of the Lemonade Children. Was that improvised or was that scripted?

[Carol Leifer]

No, the show, as they write it, is. You go in and writers, you pitch ideas, and then Larry David would take them along with the showrunner, Jeff Tafer, and they would develop them into an outline, which is basically what happens in each scene. And then the performers would go and improvise it. I mean, I always called them, you know, the second city of an improv team. The fact that they could riff off these just pure situations that, you know, that's lightning in a bottle right there with that cast. And so when I got the part of the Lemonade mom, you go out there and, yeah, it's the tightrope. You gotta walk.

[Kara Leifer]

You stated that working on Seinfeld was the most brilliant writing experience of your career, but I'm not sure if you said that before you started writing for the Larry Sanders show or Modern Family or most recently, Hacks, for which you just won your Emmy and your Golden Globe Awards. This was actually your seventh Emmy nomination and first win, so congratulations. Long overdue. As Shirley MacLaine might say, hacks is a show about resilience in comedy. Did you find that that reflected some of your own journey? Was that why you were invited on the show? It seems like there's an interesting overlap between the characters.

[Carol Leifer]

Well, I think I was brought on to a large degree because Deborah Vance, as we know in the show, has been doing comedy for a long time. I mean, I've been in the comedy business for almost 50 years, so in that way, I could relate to Deborah Vance also, you know, her storyline. She came up in the 80s. I came up as a standup comic in the 80s. But you're so spot on with it is a lot about resilience, her resilience. And the thing that I've always thought about myself is that I share that resilience. I mean, you can't audition for the Tonight Show 22 times without having some resilience. And I've always really made that the backbone of my career. That you can control what you can control, and you can't control what you can't control. And so much of stuff is out of your control. And the way that I felt about the Tonight show and another kind of tip that I have for people for staying in any business for a long time is there's not two things. There's not just one door. And with the Tonight show, it really became not only, hey, look, if they want to see me for the 21st time, okay, I'm doing standup tonight anyway. Why not? So the 22nd time is when the door opened. But if I had had an attitude about it, like, you know what? Screw these guys. They've seen me enough. I don't care anymore about the Tonight Show. I still cared about the Tonight show. And I didn't take that opportunity for granted because I felt like, well, maybe this time it will happen. And another thing that, that I always kind of attribute to my longevity in show business is, you know, there's the saying, don't take no for an answer. My theory, my motto is always take no for an answer because you're going to get a lot of rejection. There is so much rejection along the way. And if you take that no and you can let it roll off your back, there are so many other great opportunities. I'll give you an example because I do advocate for myself and I think, like Deborah Vance's character in the show, I'm not thrown off by rejection. I know that it's part of the process. And if you can accept that you're going to be rejected a lot, I feel like you'll sail because people stop because of the rejection. I mean, it's momentary, but like, for example, with Modern Fantasies Family, I saw Steve Levitan, one of the co creators of the show, at an industry event. I was a big fan. I went over to him, I told him what a big fan I was. And then I said, would you consider if I came in and picked some ideas? And I always say, and if this is not cool, totally fine. No harm, no foul. And it's good to give people an out with that kind of stuff when you're asking basically for something. And he said, yeah, sure, come in and pitch some stories. And that led to my writing on Modern Family. But if he had said, you know what, I don't know, we're not really looking for new stories at the time. So as much as I appreciate the offer, Carol, I can't do it. I don't leave there dejected or horrified or depressed. It's like, okay, it's part of the process. And that's one door to some place, which worked out. But I've been rejected a million times on other things. I've been rejected by audiences as a standup. It's just the matter of odds. You're always, you're going to do great a lot of the times and a lot of times you're, you know, you're going to stink up the roof. It just happens. But if you don't take it personally and you keep going and you have that tenacity, I think it will. It always serves people well in any business.

[Kara Leifer]

You've said that standup comedy is like giving a speech every night. We know a lot about what audiences respond to and what they don't. I'm wondering if that is some of what provoked the writing of your newest book, how to write a funny speech for a wedding, Bar mitzvah, graduation, and every other event you didn't want to go to in the first place.

[Carol Leifer]

Yes. Well, the genesis of this book came about during the writers strike when we couldn't work on any TV shows. We were out picketing and I had lunch with my friend Rick Mitchell, another comedy writer. He's wrote for Ellen's talk show for six years, won five Emmys. He had just been to an event where someone stunk up the joint. And I had just been to a wedding where the father of the bride gave a horrendous speech. And we're just both sitting there saying, you know what, it's really not that hard for someone who's not in show business to give a good speech. You know, basics and ways to approach it. And we thought, well, this is going to be a good book because we walk people through it step by step. And beyond that, we give everyone the resources of, we give people jokes. In the glossary of, like any event, you want to steal these jokes, that's what we call the section steal these jokes that you can pop into your speech. We have templates for people that really want to attempt this the easiest way where they can just fill in the blanks of what will make a good speech. But we do know, and Rick is a standup as well. Every night that you go on stage, it is basically a speech because you need of a stand up set, a beginning, middle and end. And, and we know from experience as standups what it's like to be up there. And our hearts go out to normies who get up there and have to give a speech. So we felt like, we have so much advice that we felt like as a public service, because we've lived through so many bad speeches, it'd be good for us to get this down in a book. It's very short and compact. It's not like these speech books that you pick up that are like Encyclopedia Britannica, you know, like, you don't even want to pick up the book because it looks like a chore and a headache. We made it really short and sweet. Well, that's all you need. It's. And it's.

[Kara Leifer]

It's really funny. And.

[Carol Leifer]

Thank you.

[Kara Leifer]

Years and years and years ago, I did a speech. I was asked to do speech. My brother asked me to do a speech at his wedding. And so I googled, like, wedding speeches, wedding toasts, and they were just so cumbersome and maudlin and saccharine and fake. And this is what everybody needs if they're asked to do any kind of speech, even a speech at a funeral, which I thought was particularly helpful.

[Carol Leifer]

Oh, good.

[Kara Leifer]

One of the things that I learned reading the book that I didn't expect to learn was about the Gettysburg Address. Apparently, the gettysburg address was 272 words and lasted two minutes. So you start the book by stating that public speaking remains the number one fear of an average person. And the most common mistake people make in public speaking is it's too long.

[Carol Leifer]

Yes.

[Kara Leifer]

So you say that a speech should time out to five minutes or under.

[Carol Leifer]

Exactly.

[Kara Leifer]

Why? Why is brevity so important?

[Carol Leifer]

Well, brevity is important for a couple of reasons. One is you are at an event where your odds are you're not the only speaker. They've lined up a bunch of people. So if you're long and other people are long, it becomes torturous to the point where. Been to so many events where they're going to serve the food after the speeches. So you're sitting there hangry and going, listening to these speeches, and you want to die. So it's not only important from the event perspective, but a lot of people. It's weird, Debbie. They think, I love this person so much, I really have to show them how much I love them by how long I'm speaking. And that is so not the case. They want to find out. And look, you're very honored to speak at someone's event if they've asked you. You certainly have a special relationship with this person. You can summarize it, make it pretty compact in summarizing how you feel about this person. Not only that, but be funny here and there and be heartfelt. Another misstep that people make these days. Besides, when you went on the Internet and it was tough, you didn't really get much help is a lot of people look to AI which is a really big mistake these days, because AI not only doesn't have, you know, the personal is the gold in the speech. And you have a relationship with this person that nobody else has. So that's really the stuff to mine in your speech. And like I said, we go through step by step, so it's easy. But AI is not funny. AI does not have a funny bone in its robot body. So if you want to be funny in your speech, don't look to AI because they're a clunker.

[Kara Leifer]

It's unfortunate that people feel that they need to go that route in writing a speech, but it's not surprising given how scared people are. The one thing that I was thinking about, the common denominator in so many of the templates that you provide, which are so helpful, and I wish I had them decades ago, is the injection of humor. And I was thinking about TED talks and how popular TED talks are. And the most popular TED talks are the talks where the speaker is also a little bit funny. You know, they might be talking about science, they might be talking about vulnerability, they might be talking about longevity, but there's always a sense of levity that's embedded in these speeches. It's hard for me to imagine that somebody that is, you know, a leading astrophysicist also has comedic training. Do you find that that's sort of natural, or do you find that that is a learned skill?

[Carol Leifer]

Look, the naturally funny people know they're naturally funny because they've gotten a lot of feedback over the years from their friends and family that that's in their wheelhouse. So some people are naturally funny. You know, we wrote the book for your average person who doesn't really. Not only doesn't want to get up and speak in front of people, but feels like, well, how am I going to make this funny? Because the funny in a speech really goes a long way. People can tend to drone on and on about the person. If you don't add some humor, it makes it boring and not fun to listen to. So a lot of times we ask people and show people in the book, a great story is always how you met how you met the person, because it's usually quirky and offbeat and funny. So not only that, so you can be funny. You don't have to be a manufactured funny. It's just funny in the circumstances, the stories of life. Also, we ask people, picture you're sitting at a bar and you're talking to a Stranger. And they ask you about this person. Oh, tell me about them. You usually come up with one or two funny stories that happen. You're not going to say, well, they went to this school and then they studied. You're going to reach back in your personal memory to come up with something funny. So through the book, we go step by step about how you can create something, a funny speech about someone if you follow the steps that we outline. And using the jokes in the back of our book that you are free to steal for. We have for every occasion. But we really wanted to write the book because we didn't want people to feel like it's so daunting to be funny in a speech. It's really easier than people think. You know, the other thing to think about, Debbie, that people don't realize when they give a speech is the bar is set very low.

[Kara Leifer]

Yes.

[Carol Leifer]

You know, you're not Jerry Seinfeld. People don't expect you to get up there and break down the house. In fact, most people in the audience are thinking, oh, thank God it wasn't me. So you're playing to a warm room. People want you to do well. So I think also knowing that going in gives people a sense of comfort in giving a speech.

[Kara Leifer]

It seems like a lot of people start their speeches with a joke or they're told they should start their speeches with a joke. Unless someone is a professional comic. What do you think of that approach? I always find it to be kind of awkward.

[Carol Leifer]

Yeah, I don't think it's good to start off with a joke. It feels to me a little desperate. Like, right, I'm being funny, folks. Right. Right off the bat, I don't think it's a good idea. In fact, one of the rookie mistakes that Rick and I go over in our book, which I can't believe just happened at a memorial I went to a week ago, is how many people go up and they'll say their name like, hi, I'm Carol. And then they start talking about the person and you're trying to figure out what their connection is. Like, is this a college friend? Is this someone they went to camp with? Is this a relative? I mean, it becomes an episode of NCIS trying to figure out who this person is. So it's always good to start with your name and your relationship to the person so people have a context for your speech because when they don't know how your connection is, I think that's very off putting. So I don't feel like people. You can work into the Humor. I think you don't have to start off with a boffo joke that normally really doesn't land.

[Kara Leifer]

You also suggest that the speech giver, in addition to introducing themselves, should let people know right away why they are special enough that they were asked to speak in the first place. But I'm wondering, how could somebody do that? Where's the sort of subtlety in doing that that doesn't seem pretentious or humble, braggy or I'm special and you're not kind of a vibe, I think usually.

[Carol Leifer]

Again, going back to stories that people have about the person, recently I heard a story about a guy who was giving a speech about his mom and he told this story about how when he was younger she was going to the market and he asked for shredded wheat and lo and behold, she came home with three boxes of shredded wheat and she said to him, well, I didn't know which kind you liked. So that story is not only amusing, but it also points to his mom's character and how she bent over backwards to be accommodating to her son. So I think when someone knows your most certainly a relative, a sister, brother, mother, father, certainly you don't need to explain why you're important to this person. But usually the stories that you tell will somehow instead of bragging about, well, I'm so close to this person because the stories will reveal that. So that's why we tell people. You can't mind enough stuff from your mutual background together. That's why people it's easy to write a good speech because you're the only person that has that specific relationship with the other person and to mine that because nobody else is going to tell the stories you are. So to really make your speech unique, go back and think of you could even have a funny story about putting the wedding together and asking you to speak. There are great stories out there. It's just a matter of pinpointing them and people really enjoy them.

[Kara Leifer]

Carol, I have two last questions for you today. The book includes speech templates, as we've mentioned, and advice for wedding, retirement, graduations, bar bat mitzvah, even a do not do list for a speech at a funeral. Is there a piece of advice from the book that readers have responded to most or if someone were to ask you for, or one tidbit that might be a common denominator across all speeches. Is there one bit of advice that you might give to our listeners?

[Carol Leifer]

I think some of the feedback that I've gotten so far and it's great. We're number one on Amazon in the public speaking list. People have really responded to. We encourage people at Celebrations of Life memorials to be funny because the trick sometimes people feel like it's respectful to just be serious and talk about this person. Telling a funny story about the person who's passed really is gold at these events because, you know, people do want to celebrate this person. And when you bring up stories or situations that this person was in, what's great is they've lived an entire life. So little quirks that you've noticed about the person. Everybody else there has. And it's always great to be a little funny at memorials. People are afraid, but people want to celebrate the person, you know. For example, I spoke at my. My cousin Jay passed away prematurely of cancer a couple of years ago, and I spoke at his memorial and I told this story about. He was the biggest people person. You've never met a social butterfly like this. So we went to the Beach Boys concert together, and we're invited, luckily, to the after party. And I kept saying to my cousin, I gotta go over to Mike Love because I opened for the Beach Boys and Harris when I was starting out. I gotta go over and say hi. And I'm looking for every way to go over to Mike Love, trying to see when the timing is right. I go to the bar to get a drink. I turn around, my cousin Jay is talking with Mike Love, like, he's known him for 30 years. He was that much of a people person. And literally introduces me to Mike Love, saying, hey, you know, my cousin Carol, she opened for you at Harris. And people love that story at his memorial because everybody knew he was a people person and was just that example that everyone could really cling onto that really showed what a mensch he was and what a character he was. So I think the biggest feedback that I've gotten is people going, you know what? I've always been afraid at a memorial to be funny. But your book really showed me how you can use it at an occasion like that to really lighten the load and really celebrate the person who's passed.

[Kara Leifer]

This is my last question today. Carol, Steven Wright once gave you the advice to perform every night for three years with no judgment.

[Carol Leifer]

Yes.

[Kara Leifer]

What do you tell young comedians and writers today when they ask you for advice about making it in the business?

[Carol Leifer]

Well, it's going back to Stephen. Wright's advice was basically Malcolm Gladwell's right, 10,000 hours. To be very good at something, you've got to put in the time, and that hasn't changed from day one when I started standup to today. You only get good by not only doing it, but by falling on your face a lot. That's where the hours come in where you don't judge yourself. You are going to step in it a lot. And if you know that's part of the process, you won't be afraid of failure. So that's really the key to really getting good. And with the writing jobs, don't be afraid to hear no. You're going to hear a lot of no's before you get a job. Any show I've worked on, when I asked someone, how did you get into the business, they tell this story of where they were rejected. And then I wanted to write on this show and they didn't take me. It's the persistence that is so important. And I always tell people, you got to be the squeaky wheel, but balance it with, not the pain in the ass. Because we all know people who go on and on with bothering you that it becomes such a turn off. You know, be the squeaky wheel, but be aware that you are not being obnoxious. You know, that you're being appropriate in your asks and always in your ass. It's so important, I think, to always say, like I've done with my writing jobs that I've applied for, you know, if you can't make it work, I get it, it's no problem because it takes all the pressure off the person. And I think that's important when you advocate for yourself, which people also need to do. I think a big misconception about my career. And Debbie, as we talked about, I've been doing it for almost 50 years and almost, you know, just won an Emmy a year ago, is you've got to really, people think I just coast like the jobs free flowing. They all come to me. No, I still advocate for myself and still go after jobs that I want. Because a lot of times, you know, unless you. My mother, my Jewish mother had a great saying which was, you don't ask, you don't get. So to always be advocating for yourself and going after the things that you want, but not, you know, with an edge that you become such a pain in the ass, people want to avoid you the second they see you.

[Kara Leifer]

Carolifer, thank you for making me laugh so much today. Thank you for making so much work that matters. And thank you for joining me today on Design Matters.

[Carol Leifer]

Oh, thank you. You know, I don't enjoy a lot of podcasts, but this one really, it flew by. I really, really loved it, Debbie. So thank you for having me.

[Kara Leifer]

Cara Leifer's latest book is titled how to Write a Funny Speech for a Wedding, Bar Mitzvah graduation, and every other event you didn't want to go to in the first place. You can read more about her on her website caraleifer.com and Leifer is spelled L E I s. There you can find her upcoming gigs with Howard Stern, Susie Essman, and Henry Winkler and info about her Showtime special More Funny Women of a Certain Age this is the 20th year we've been podcasting Design Matters and I'd like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference. We can make a difference or we can do both. I'm Debbie Melman and I look forward to talking with you again soon.

[Debbie Millman]

Design Matters is produced for the TED Audio Collective by Curtis Fox Productions. The interviews are usually recorded at the Masters in Branding program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest running branding program in the world. The editor in chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Weiland.

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