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- [00:01]
Debbie Millman
I mean, I'm a designer and an engineer. I'm not a money man or a manufacturer. I was making a product I loved. Strange to love vacuum cleaners, but I did and still do. From the TED Audio Collective, this is Design Matters with Debbie Millman.
- [00:23]
James Dyson
On Design Matters, Debbie talks with some.
- [00:25]
Debbie Millman
Of the most creative people in the world about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they're thinking about and working on. On this episode, James Dyson talks about his life and some of the groundbreaking products he's designed. I wasn't aware that what I was doing was anything unusual or different. I was just doing it my way.
- [00:52]
Capital One Voice
If you love to travel, Capital One has a rewards credit card that's perfect for you. With the Capital One Venture X card, you earn unlimited double miles on everything you buy. Plus you get premium benefits at a collection of luxury hotels when you book on Capital One Travel. And with Venture X, you get access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. Open up a world of travel possibilities with a Capital One Venture X card. What's in your wallet?
- [01:17]
Debbie Millman
Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See capitalone.com for details.
- [01:21]
James Dyson
Now at Verizon we have some big news for your peace of mind for all our customers, existing and new. We're locking in low prices for three years guaranteed on MyPlan and my home. That's future you peace of mind and everyone can save on a brand new phone on MyPlan when you trade in any phone from one of our top brands, that's new phone peace of mind. Because at Verizon, whether you're already a customer or you're just joining us, we got you. Visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.
- [01:52]
Sponsor Voice
This episode is sponsored by Lumen. Your metabolism is like your body's engine. It powers everything you do from how you move to how you feel. And when it's running smoothly, you feel the difference. More energy. Better sleep. Improved recovery. Lumen is the world's first handheld metabolic coach that helps you understand what your body is burning fats or carbs just by breathing into it each morning. Then the app gives you daily nutrition guidance personalized to your body's needs. This summer, stay in sync with your metabolism and feel your best. Whether you're active, resting or anything in between. The warmer months are coming. Spring back into your health and fitness. Go to Lumen Me ted to get 10% off your lumen. That's L U M E N.me TED for 10% off your purchase. Thank you, Lumen, for sponsoring this episode. Picture this. You're halfway through a DIY car fix, tools scattered everywhere, and boom. You realize you're missing a part. It's okay, because, you know, whatever it is you, it's on ebay. They've got everything. Brakes, headlights, cold air intakes. Whatever you need. And it's guaranteed to fit. Which means no more crossing your fingers and hoping you've ordered the right thing. All the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. Ebay Things people love. My guest today is someone who has not only changed the way we clean our homes, but how we think about failure, invention, and evil in the air we breathe. Sir James Dyson is a British inventor, designer, entrepreneur, educator, and philanthropist. First known for inventing the world's first bagless vacuum cleaner, James Dyson has built a global company that has reinvented how humans engage in and with technology. Sir James Dyson, welcome to Design Matters.
- [03:51]
Debbie Millman
Good morning.
- [03:53]
Sponsor Voice
You have built a world changing company on the belief that the best ideas come from frustration, failure, and relentless tinkering. You've transformed not just how we clean our homes, but how we think about design, engineering, and the very nature of invention. Sir James, my first question is this. What has mud taught you?
- [04:18]
Debbie Millman
Mud. Mud, Mud, Mud, mud. Well, not a lot. I mean, I come across mud on my farms.
- [04:26]
Sponsor Voice
Yes, I understand that when you walk, you get a lot of ideas, and mud has helped inspire you with new thoughts about how things are made. We don't have to answer that question. It just came up a lot in a lot of my research.
- [04:41]
Debbie Millman
And.
- [04:42]
Sponsor Voice
You there? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [04:44]
Debbie Millman
Well, I used to slide around on it when I was a child in the creeks of Norfolk, and I guess it gets trodden into carpets and we have to. We have to clear it up, especially when it's dry. And we now clean it off hard floors with our hard floor washing machine, which I can just see behind me. And it turns into dust. Yeah, and we have to deal with dust.
- [05:04]
Sponsor Voice
Skip that one. I just thought it would be fun to talk about because it came up a few times in my research.
- [05:09]
Debbie Millman
Oh, really?
- [05:11]
Sponsor Voice
You grew up in Norfolk. A home where your family grew their own vegetables and collected eggs from your hens. There was no television, not enough heating, no new toys, and few, if any, consumer goods. Yet I read that your first memory is of being lowered into a swimming pool by your father, who was teaching you how to swim. What do you think it is about that experience that prompted such A visceral memory.
- [05:39]
Debbie Millman
Well, I was a very skinny little boy and it was being done while the swimming pool was filling up. So it was filling up full of freezing water. Remember, this is Norfolk and there's nothing between me in Norfolk and the Arctic in one direction and Siberia in the other. So it was a pretty chilling experience. I remember that. Far more than the difficulties of learning to swim. I think I learned swim very quickly just to get out of the water.
- [06:07]
Sponsor Voice
Your dad has been described as a cheerful polymath who was also a keen photographer. He coached the rugby and hockey teams at your boarding school. He was also a teacher there of classics. And you and your older brother attended the school as well. And while at school you studied bassoon, you were part of the combined cadet force and acted in the school plays and designed the sets. You were also an athlete and began long distance running. What first drew you to running as a young child?
- [06:43]
Debbie Millman
I never walked. I always ran everywhere. Cause I think I was in a hurry. I didn't see any point in walking. It seemed to be a waste of time. And I then discovered I rather enjoyed it. I don't enjoy it now. I do it now at the age of 78, I'm still running, but I don't enjoy it now. But in those days it wasn't such hard work. It wasn't so painful. It seemed much more natural. I also liked it because I could get out into the countryside on my own, across the heathland and across the sand dunes, along the beaches. So it was a, it was a wonderful way to experience and feel the countryside.
- [07:21]
Sponsor Voice
Do you think that the stamina required for long distance running impacted how you approach the task of long term invention?
- [07:30]
Debbie Millman
Completely. That I experienced during my youth that you, in order to be good at running you have to run a lot and do a lot of weightlifting and other things and you must never give up. And I think the thing I learned most from it peculiarly is running the mile.
- [07:46]
Sponsor Voice
Why is that?
- [07:47]
Debbie Millman
Well, I was a long distance runner and the mile was one of the. It was the long distance we were allowed to run in those days. I think they thought running any further was bad for you. And what, what I lear was that at the end of the third lap, when the finish isn't quite in sight, you're feeling the most tired and the most down, if you like. And I realized that was the time to accelerate because success is just around the corner and people often give up at the point they're about to be successful. When everything's against you, everything you've tried, doesn't work. You're feeling exhausted, it seems pointless. That's the point, to double down and really break through that last bit, that's where everybody else gives up.
- [08:29]
Sponsor Voice
Why do you think that is? Just because of how difficult it feels at the time?
- [08:33]
Debbie Millman
Yes. Well, it does feel difficult and it feels that you not being successful, that you haven't achieved what you set out to achieve and you're a bit of a failure and there doesn't seem to be a solution to the problem. I mean, it's same in running, same in developing new technology. And that's the very point where you mustn't stop.
- [08:53]
Sponsor Voice
Your father lost his battle to cancer when he was only 40 years old. You were nine. You said this about his passing. Perhaps I had to learn quickly to make decisions for myself, to be self reliant and be willing to take risks. Little could be worse than my father dying when he did. Yet you also wrote that you had to respond with a stiff upper lip. Why is that?
- [09:20]
Debbie Millman
Well, this was very shortly after the war and a lot of people had died in the war and in Britain there had always been up to that point the stiff upper lip of the upper classes. And that you took disaster in your stride. You went away to boarding school, away from your parents, who were often maltreated by teachers. I don't mean physically necessarily, but mentally. And you had to learn to survive that system. So death at that time was not considered the awful disaster that it is now. I mean, of course it was in a way, but nothing like how it is now. But I did feel different because I only had a mother, whereas everybody else at school had two parents for another reason, actually, which was that divorces were far less frequent then. So everybody else seemed to have two parents and I only had one. So that made me feel different. I didn't feel sorry for myself, but it made me feel different.
- [10:21]
Sponsor Voice
How do you think that impacted how you ultimately have crafted the arc of your life?
- [10:27]
Debbie Millman
Oh, hugely. Because as you said, I. I had to rely on myself. I thought I had to rely on myself. Although I had a very competent mother, very loving mother, I somehow felt alone and I had to make my own decisions and find my own way in life. You know, I didn't have an awful lot to lose. So taking risks and living on the edge was something that came naturally to me.
- [10:49]
Sponsor Voice
Before his death, your father had been a teacher of classics at Gresham's, a prestigious boarding school that you and your older brother also attended. And after he passed, the school's Then headmaster Logie Bruce Lockhart, allowed you to stay at the school despite not having the money to pay the tuition. And I believe Logie became a big influence on you while you were at school. Was he the first person to recommend you to consider furthering your education and product design?
- [11:19]
Debbie Millman
No, I think the school was very much against going into art, as they called it then. You were supposed to go into the Foreign Office or be a doctor or an accountant or something. So I, and I think indeed I was the first person from the school to go to a school of art and design when I left.
- [11:37]
Sponsor Voice
Now, I don't know if this is true or not, but I did read that he was okay about you going to art school because he didn't think you had it academically in you to pursue anything else. Is that correct?
- [11:51]
Debbie Millman
Well, he's absolutely right.
- [11:55]
Sponsor Voice
I mean, how did that make you feel at the time?
- [11:57]
Debbie Millman
Well, he was also, he was a polymath. I mean, he admitted as a headmaster at the time that academia wasn't everything. There were other things in life. I mean, he had been a very successful rugby player. He captained Scotland in rugby. He also was the first person to go into Belston as an army captain, young army captain. So he had a quite a broad view of life. That academia wasn't the only thing.
- [12:24]
Sponsor Voice
I read that you thought since you sat on chairs you could be a furniture designer and quite liked the idea of constructing something useful.
- [12:33]
Debbie Millman
Well, that sounds incredibly arrogant, but you have to remember in the mid-60s, design wasn't the thing it is now. There weren't shops where you could buy design. I there weren't design shops and the shops that existed were not interested in design. It was post war, anything will do kind of setup. So I didn't know about design and I, the wonderful principal at my college said, what are you going to do next? Because I did painting and drawing for a year. And he said, there's this thing called design, I think you might be quite good at design. And I said, what's designed? I mean, it was that basic. And he reeled off a few types of design and furniture was the only one I recognized. So that's what I chose to study. I actually switched to architecture while I was doing it.
- [13:24]
Sponsor Voice
Do you remember when you first began to think about the world not just as it is, but how it could be redesigned?
- [13:31]
Debbie Millman
Well, I was really lucky because the mid-60s were a time of big cultural change, big technology change. You know, Concord was about to come out. The mini car had been invented. There were lots of interesting things going on. And I, I got interested in that which I slightly surprising for an artist turned architect, I discovered that engineering was actually very interesting. And it was the time of Norman Foster, Richard Rogers and Buckminster Fuller in particular. And Buckminster Fuller, just on the US exhibit at the Montreal Expo, which is this wonderful Dom, you know, complete dome made of aluminium tubes was the most wonderful, inspiring exhibit. And I suddenly realized that architecture and products for that matter were really about their engineering. Not the style, not the outward appearance of them. And I realized that I wanted to do, which is a bit odd because I was a designer and a would be architect. I wanted to do the engineering, the technology, as well as design it. And most arrogantly also wanted to make it. And I don't know what gave me that.
- [14:43]
Sponsor Voice
Why do you think that's arrogance?
- [14:46]
Debbie Millman
Well, I mean, there I was at the Royal College of Art in London, a school of art and design, imagining I could be a manufacturer and sell my products to the world. I mean, that is a huge form of arrogance.
- [14:58]
Sponsor Voice
You attended structural engineering classes with Anthony Hunt, the designer of London's Waterloo Station was. What did he teach you about the relationship between design and engineering and integrity?
- [15:11]
Debbie Millman
Well, we had blackboards in those days and he used to draw structural problems on the blackboard. And I found it riveting, you know, why a bridge stayed up and why bridges fell down, how cable structures worked. The structure is at the heart of everything and engineering is at the heart of everything. And that's where you start. That's what it taught me.
- [15:31]
Sponsor Voice
Yeah. My father in law is an engineer and he's astounded at how little design really appreciates in engineering and what it really takes to bring an idea to life.
- [15:43]
Debbie Millman
Well, yes, I mean, Tony drew and was a normal human being. And I didn't realize that engineers were like that. I thought they were very boring people in white coats. And suddenly I realized how wrong I'd been. And society then did divide people into the backroom boys with the white coats and the designers out front with the pink shirts and the felt tip pens. I mean, it's a stale analogy, but that's. The world was divided like that and I didn't think that was right.
- [16:11]
Sponsor Voice
How did your experience of studying art and design affect the way you eventually approached engineering?
- [16:19]
Debbie Millman
Well, my structural engineers tutor who introduced me to Buckminster Fuller through that I realized that you start with how the product works, the new technology it uses, and why it's therefore a better product or a better building for that matter. And that the design should Evolve from how the product works, what it's used for, how you use it. Not the sort of Harvey Earl skin that the marketing department uses to help sell the product in a contemporary style. So I was sort of revolted by that and wanted to have the product know what the product's going to look like as you develop the engineering, because of the way it works.
- [17:05]
Sponsor Voice
Do you find that most people find that design and engineering are complementary or in tension?
- [17:13]
Debbie Millman
Well, strange enough, shortly after I left college, I went back as an examiner and then as a governor. We started in the Royal College, probably the first engineering design course in the world, melding design and engineering. And that started a trend. And I think most colleges now teach engineering with design. Thank goodness.
- [17:37]
Sponsor Voice
Yes. Your first commercial invention was the ballbarrow. A wheelbarrow with a ball instead of a wheel. Where did that inspiration come from? And what did that experience teach you about innovation and resistance?
- [17:56]
Debbie Millman
Well, my first product was actually a high speed landing craft, which I did for a public company. I did that straight from Gaja.
- [18:04]
Sponsor Voice
That was a sea vessel, is that correct?
- [18:05]
Debbie Millman
Yeah. Yes, it was a high speed landing craft. And I did that actually while I was still at university at the Royal College of Art, and then went to set up the company to manufacture and sell it around the world. And I then wanted to do my own product for humans, I mean, as opposed to armies and construction companies and oil companies, which is what my landing craft was used for. So I wanted to do something for the home. And I had been doing up a house, an old house in the Cotswolds, and the wheelbarrow kept getting stuck in the mud. It had a narrow wheel. Mud. That's mud. Mud again. Mud, yeah, it's all back to mud. And the legs, the little tubular legs would get sunk in and the thing would tip over and whatever you put in it fell out. So I just. While I was lugging this thing around, I started to redesign it in my head. And the first obvious thing was to have a balloon fat tyre, not this narrow tire that they have. And then it started from there while. Frustration.
- [19:06]
Sponsor Voice
Frustration. Envisioning something better.
- [19:09]
Debbie Millman
Yes, yes. Wanting to do something better.
- [19:12]
Sponsor Voice
While spray painting the ballbarrow, you initially used a standard fan to keep removing the flying paint particles, but they kept clogging and stopping the production line. And you discovered that cyclone separators were the only thing that could do the job. And that discovery led to your reinvention of the entire vacuum cleaner category. And in the years leading up to its public introduction, you famously made 5,127 prototypes of the vacuum over five years before arriving at one that worked. That number has become part of the Dyson mythology. Was there ever a time in the journey to 5127 that you wanted to give up?
- [20:02]
Debbie Millman
Well, of course, it's like running the mile again. So I'm back to that. Yeah. I mean, it. I don't know. When I got to the 4,000th prototype, I wonder, is this ever going to end?
- [20:13]
Sponsor Voice
Did it ever. Did any, Any. Any specific prototype ever just break you?
- [20:20]
Debbie Millman
Well, none of them worked, but I was understanding more and more and certainly finding out what didn't work. And one of the reasons I built so many prototypes and one of the reasons we still do today, is that you can only make one change at a time. So a lot of people want to be brilliant and leap to the final answer, but you start and you make one change at a time and you wait to see what difference that change makes. And sometimes it makes it better and sometimes it makes it worse, and then you wonder why. And that tells you what to do for the next prototype and the next prototype and so on. So you're making slow progress, you're learning and you're taking often one step back, one step forward and so on. So many of the days are wasted, but you rule things out.
- [21:09]
Sponsor Voice
So it's like a control.
- [21:11]
Debbie Millman
Yes. And you're narrowing the field and you're getting close to the solution. And often, I mean, the particular problem I had was that. Well, first of all, I was told by the highest authority in Britain on cyclones, that you can never make a cyclone that will clear cigarette smoke. You can only collect sand in it, you know, gritty sand, not cigarette smoke. So part of my research was proving him wrong about that. I rather like proving people, experts wrong.
- [21:39]
Sponsor Voice
It's very satisfying, isn't it?
- [21:41]
Debbie Millman
And then the other problem was, which was actually a far greater problem in the end, was that a cyclone is for clearing very fine particles, but vacuum cleaners pick up lots of nasty things like scissors and coins and hair, in particular, fluff and hair. And cyclones don't like fluff and hair.
- [22:02]
Sponsor Voice
Because they're too big.
- [22:03]
Debbie Millman
It goes straight through it because it's only for clearing fine dust. So I had to solve that problem. And that was probably the most difficult one. And that's one where I most nearly gave up.
- [22:16]
Sponsor Voice
You went into debt in this journey. You even had the house you lived in with your family on the line. What kept you going? Were you that sure that you could produce something that would Ultimately become what it became?
- [22:31]
Debbie Millman
No, I wasn't sure at all. And I was beginning to doubt myself more and more as I couldn't find a solution. But I was in debt and I had to carry on.
- [22:40]
Sponsor Voice
And your wife did?
- [22:41]
Debbie Millman
My wife was hugely supportive, yeah. She's an artist and she understands what a project is, but nevertheless, it's a big thing to put the house on, and especially when you've got three young children and a dog.
- [22:55]
Sponsor Voice
Was there an emotional difference between the first failure and the 5,000th, the 5,127th? Well, not really, because by 5,127, you're on the verge of success, whereas 5,000, you're still not sure how many more iterations you will need to be successful or if you'll be successful. Does it get easier? Does resilience get easier with repetition?
- [23:23]
Debbie Millman
I don't think so, no. I mean, it's interesting because you've done these experiments, you've failed, and you had some successes, and it's a fascinating time, actually. It may not sound it from outside, but when. When you're doing it, when you're making these discoveries yourself, it's. It's very absorbing. I mean, I was working at home at the time, and I used to come in for lunch covered with dust and sit down, and I was happy, actually. Heavily in debt and worried, deeply worried, of course, but at the same time, professionally at least, very happy.
- [24:00]
Sponsor Voice
Does failure do you. Are you afraid of failure?
- [24:04]
Debbie Millman
Well, yes. I mean, if it was a failure, but it's a necessary part of experimenting and ultimately succeeding. And I'm always very disappointed that school wants you to get the answer, or academia wants you to get the answer right immediately.
- [24:23]
Sponsor Voice
Well, I think we're living in a world now where there's this almost requirement for immediate gratification, immediate success. People that are successful early in their lives are lauded. And there seems to be a lack of real patience and rigor in the way most people approach the world these days.
- [24:44]
Debbie Millman
Well, I mean, almost any job you do, you don't know the answer. You have to work it out. But that's not what school teaches you. School teaches you to learn something, remember it, and then spout it when asked. It doesn't teach you about failure. I mean, I always think that school should mark people not on the number of right answers they give, but the number of wrong answers. Answers which they then go away and experiment and correct for themselves and find out for themselves viscerally, because that's what life's about. And I've looked at the people I was at school with who were very keen on getting top marks and coming top and all that kind of thing. And they haven't always had very interesting lives afterwards, whereas the failures, a lot of the academic failures have had a much more interesting and exciting life.
- [25:33]
Sponsor Voice
As a teacher, I am going to borrow that phrase and encourage my students to ask as many questions as they can that might be giving them the wrong answers to get to the right.
- [25:46]
Debbie Millman
One and also work things out for themselves. Get to the answer by failing. You know, there's no. Well, there is a hurry to get the right answer, but getting the wrong answer and then understanding why they failed and working out the right answer is what life is about.
- [26:04]
Sponsor Voice
You founded Dyson Limited in 1991 and launched the DC01 in 1993. What were the early days of Dyson Limited like?
- [26:14]
Debbie Millman
Pretty scary. I didn't have any money for a start, so. And it was interesting. A lot of people put money into startups, so startups are quite well funded. I didn't have any money, so I had to make do without money. I couldn't advertise or do any PR or anything. It's a very good process to go through so that you. You work out how to do things the hard way without just spending money. So, for example, the first retailer who was. Because they all rejected me at the beginning because I wasn't a brand, you know, I can't sell an electric brand. Yeah.
- [26:51]
Sponsor Voice
Once you get to that brand, 5127th prototype that works, then you have of everybody saying, no, I don't, I don't want this.
- [26:59]
Debbie Millman
Yeah, they absolutely said that. And I got. I got one person who was vaguely interested, electrical retailer, and he said, well, you know, I've taken it home and everything you say about it is true, but why would anyone buy a Dyson in a shop that can buy a brand name by you? What about doing some advertising? I said, I haven't got any money. He said, well, I can't take you then. And then I said, well, supposing you. Every thousand machines you order, I'll spend £10,000 or whatever it was on television advertising. And we did a deal on that basis and that really got me going.
- [27:37]
Sponsor Voice
And you were featured in the ads?
- [27:39]
Debbie Millman
No, not originally, no. I did that later.
- [27:42]
Sponsor Voice
Okay. One of the things that I.
- [27:45]
Debbie Millman
That's my idea, by the way.
- [27:46]
Sponsor Voice
Oh, I know, I know.
- [27:48]
Debbie Millman
Because I thought it's a very embarrassing thing to do.
- [27:50]
Sponsor Voice
I think they're charming, absolutely charming. One of the things that I was.
- [27:54]
Debbie Millman
So Fascinated, fascinating, horrified when they saw what I was doing.
- [27:57]
James Dyson
Why?
- [27:59]
Debbie Millman
Because, I don't know, I think they thought it was some terrible form of salesmanship. In Britain, we're quite snobby about selling. It's not a profession that's well respected at all. It's very different in the United States, quite correctly. It's a wonderful thing to do, actually. A very exciting job.
- [28:19]
Sponsor Voice
It is a very exciting job. In 1995, I joined a firm that had originated in the UK, Sterling Brands. And I came in as their salesperson, their business development person. And I was working with an entire team of British men. And I think they hated me at first because I was so sure they didn't.
- [28:40]
Debbie Millman
I'm sure that. Oh, because you, you were keen on selling.
- [28:42]
Sponsor Voice
I was keen. I was like this weird American woman that was out there selling, and they were horrified.
- [28:48]
Debbie Millman
Well, I, I hope you showed them away.
- [28:49]
Sponsor Voice
I did, actually. That was very gratifying. One of the biggest resistances to the acceptance of your vacuum cleaner by the industry was the fact that it didn't have a bag, even though that was one of the great, great differentiators. Because people were concerned that it would change the vacuum cleaner bag industry, and therefore the people that were making the bags wouldn't be making money anymore. And that just blew my mind that.
- [29:21]
Debbie Millman
Well, it was two things, actually. One is that the vacuum cleaner manufacturers would have no further sales, like the razor blade, you know, and the shots were worried that they too would have no further sales of bags. And they liked selling bags because people had to come into the shop to buy them. So it brought them into the shop, which, which was a good idea. So, yes, there was a no bag resistance. And the, in fact, the term bagless wasn't coined by me, it was coined by my competitors who wanted to make it sound bad. So bagless was a derogatory term.
- [29:56]
Sponsor Voice
I can't even begin to tell you how many times over the decades prior to your vacuum cleaner coming out, I would cease to be able to use my vacuum cleaner because I had issues getting the bags. And so it just sat in the closet dormant while dirt piled up on the carpet.
- [30:15]
Debbie Millman
This is horrifying story. It is. Well, actually, that's how I started because the vacuum cleaner wasn't working right and I thought, oh, the bag must be full. So I, I, but I couldn't find a spare one. So I went and tipped the contents out into a garbage can and gaffer taped it, you know, Scotch tape at the end, back up again, put it back in the machine. And still it wasn't picking things up. So I thought, well, that's all. The vacuum bag is empty. Why isn't it? So I took my scotch tape off and looked inside the bag and there was a lining of fine dust all the way around the inside of the bag. And then the penny dropped. What's happening here is that the air is supposed to go through the bag and it's being clogged by fine dust particles.
- [31:01]
Sponsor Voice
Right?
- [31:01]
Debbie Millman
So it's a con. The bag wasn't full, the bag was clogged. We need a better system.
- [31:07]
Sponsor Voice
At what point did you realize that you weren't just making vacuums, that you were creating an entirely new category and a new design language?
- [31:17]
Debbie Millman
Well, I don't. I don't think it was a point where I thought that. I mean, I'm a designer and an engineer. I'm not a money man or a manufacturer. I was making a product I loved. Strange to love vacuum cleaners, but I did and still do. And that's what I was doing. So I wasn't aware that what I was doing was anything unusual or different. I was just doing it my way.
- [31:43]
Sponsor Voice
I'm really excited to tell you about a podcast that I am loving. It is from one of my favorite places on earth, the Metropolitan Museum of Art. The show is titled 5000 Years of One Material at a time. Hosted by Camille Dungey. Each episode examines a material of art, clay, stone, trash, and even intangible things like space. You'll gain a deep understanding of what these materials make us feel and reveal about our history and our humanity. You'll also get a sense of the meaningfulness of these materials in art and how to see them in a whole new way. To listen to immaterial, just search for immaterial in your favorite podcast app. That's immaterial. 5,000 years of art, one material at a time. I love this show and I think you will too.
- [32:45]
James Dyson
Now at Verizon, we have some big news for your peace of mind. For all our customers, existing and new, we're locking in low prices for three years guaranteed. On MyPlan and my home, that's future you peace of mind and everyone can save on a brand new phone on MyPlan. When you trade in any phone from one of our top brands, that's new phone peace of mind. Because at Verizon, whether you're already a customer or you're just joining us, we got you. Visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.
- [33:15]
Capital One Voice
If you love to travel, Capital One has a rewards credit card that's perfect for you. With the Capital One Venture X card, you earn unlimited double miles on everything you buy. Plus you get premium benefits at a collection of luxury hotels when you book on Capital One Travel. And with Venture X, you get access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. Open up a world of travel possibilities with a Capital One Venture X card. What's in your wallet?
- [33:41]
Debbie Millman
Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See capitalone.com for details.
- [33:45]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
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- [34:47]
Sponsor Voice
You've said that design is not about making things look pretty, it's about solving problems. Yet I'm sitting in your studio in soho, New York City, surrounded by the most beautiful products in your categories that you sell in existence. So talk about, if you can, the connection between your visual aesthetic and your innovation that's inherent in every product that you've brought to market.
- [35:18]
Debbie Millman
I think it goes back to the time I was at the Royal College of Art and Design. That's where I come from. And then wanting to understand engineering and designing engineering products, I mean, Buckminster Fuller led me to it. But being asked to design a high speed landing craft, which I'd never. I'd hardly been on a boat before, let alone design one. And the boat had to work. I mean, it had to float, it had to be unsinkable and had to go fast and had to land on beaches and all that sort of thing. So it's how it performed its performance, how you use it, what it's like to use, how it looks. Certainly. Does it look purposeful? Most people thought it didn't look like a boat and it didn't look like a conventional boat. It was his own version of a boat. But it explained its use. When you looked at it, I didn't see the difference between engineering and design. For me, they were one thing, and I hate the idea that an engineer designed and develops technology and then someone comes along and make it, makes it look good. I just don't like that approach.
- [36:25]
Sponsor Voice
Has a need for a specific aesthetic in your work. Ever needed to be sacrificed because of an engineering need?
- [36:36]
Debbie Millman
Oh, yes. Often you can't do what you want to do visually because of an engineering issue, but that's fine, you know, you've got to work with it with those constraints.
- [36:48]
Sponsor Voice
In my research, I came upon numerous instances where you were dismissive of market research. And I read one interview wherein you stated most focus groups are wrong. Do you still believe that? And if so, why?
- [37:02]
Debbie Millman
Well, let's put it this way, they're dodgy. They can tell you some things, but they really can't give you the answers. And I always say that proof of that is that politicians rely on them. So if you want an example of why they don't work. But I'll give you a very simple, a good example. When we were developing cyclonic action for a vacuum cleaner, we made all the parts see through so you could see what was going on and you could see the dirt piling up in the collection bin. And we thought that was rather nice. There was something very satisfying about this.
- [37:41]
Sponsor Voice
It's evident.
- [37:42]
Debbie Millman
So I made the early prototypes with clear bins and when we showed them to retailers, they said, you can't sell that thing. People don't want to see the dirt. It's disgusting. But we decided to persevere because we thought it was right. We did some market research and the retailers were absolutely right. People didn't want to see the dirt. And our competitors, well, they said they didn't.
- [38:05]
Sponsor Voice
Right.
- [38:06]
Debbie Millman
I think they didn't want to see it.
- [38:07]
Sponsor Voice
So what kept.
- [38:09]
Debbie Millman
It's disgusting.
- [38:11]
Sponsor Voice
It is disgusting. It's sort of horrifying to see what humans produce.
- [38:15]
Debbie Millman
Well, yes, and dogs and. And the world. But we were just convinced that it was interesting and satisfying because when you push around a vacuum cleaner, a bag vacuum cleaner, you don't know what you're doing. I mean, you're pushing it around, it's making a screaming noise and you hope you're cleaning. Maybe you could see some of the dirt coming off the surface. We don't know deep down what's going on. So we ignored it. We ignored the retailers and our competitors laughed when they saw it in the store. But it was something that people really liked because at last they. They got no pleasure is the wrong word. But they got some satisfaction for the half an hour, an hour they spent vacuuming their home because they had collected that dirt out of the house.
- [38:58]
Sponsor Voice
You made 5,127 prototypes before you launched your vacuum cleaner. There are a couple of products that you've designed that haven't been as successful in the market or you chose not to continue selling them. The electric vehicle and your washing machine. Although it does seem like your washing machine, really, there's a. There's a moment in time where it could be relaunched, at least from everything I've read about how great it is. Talk about the decisions to not bring something to market or to remove something from the market.
- [39:37]
Debbie Millman
That we should have carried on with the washing machine. At the time, it was very expensive to make, probably three times the cost of a normal washing machine, and we didn't charge enough for it. And so it was losing money and we should have persevered because actually it was selling quite well and people who bought it really liked it. But we weren't very big in those days and losing money is not something you want to do as a private business.
- [40:04]
Sponsor Voice
Yes.
- [40:05]
Debbie Millman
Now, the car was a very different matter. We started developing that in 2014 when Tesla was the only other person doing electric cars. I looked at what the industry was predicting and it said that 2% of cars by 2030 would be electric. And I thought that was wrong. And we were developing electric motors, still developing electric motors. We're developing battery technology and we're about cleaning air and moving air and chilling air and so on. So I thought that we were in quite a good position to do an electric car, but every manufacturer had started making electric cars but losing a lot of money on them, which they were prepared to do. Now, we couldn't compete in that environment because we had to make money out of our car. We couldn't offset our losses on the electric car by continuing to make gas guzzlers at the other end. So it was an entirely a commercial decision. You know, car business is a big business. You need a lot of money and a lot of capital. And we're a private business, a relatively small private business.
- [41:10]
Sponsor Voice
You've been a private company since 1991. You are the sole owner. Talk about the decision to keep it private.
- [41:20]
Debbie Millman
Well, that wasn't difficult. I mean, I own all the shares because no one would back it. I did try to get people to back it. Yes, but no one would back it. They said you're an engineer. Engineer. And we're not backing engineers. We want commercial people. So by default, I own 100% of the shares and I don't really want to sell any shares to anybody. I want it to remain a family business, a private family business whose sole interest is in producing new technology and developing new products and not be constrained by short termism and having to make an immediate profit.
- [41:57]
Sponsor Voice
It the Airblade hand dryer, the bladeless air multiplier fan, the supersonic hair dryer. These aren't just technological household gadgets, they're game changers. But innovation is really expensive. What is your philosophy on risk and return, especially when the outcome is uncertain and you are the person that's funding everything.
- [42:20]
Debbie Millman
Of course we have to look at things commercially, but you have to take risks. And you don't know when we introduce a hand dryer, hair dryer. Well, and from that time, the hand dryer, we didn't know we'd sell any. You never know how many you're going to sell. So everything is a huge risk. As I said, I think from the early age I didn't mind living on the edge. You know, I'd lost everything, lost my father, not my mother, very loving mother. But I wasn't afraid of losing things.
- [42:52]
Sponsor Voice
In 2016, you founded the Dyson Institute of Engineering and Technology. It is now a university and offers degrees while students work on real products. You also created the James Dyson foundation, which supports design education. What do you think is missing from how we teach engineering and creativity to young people today?
- [43:14]
Debbie Millman
Well, we have a thing called the James Dyson Award, which is now in, I don't know, 35 countries, I think, where we ask people to solve a problem. Young people, these people at universities. And one of the interesting things is that in the beginning, 20 years ago, they designed windsurfers and sort of sporting things. But now they've fallen into two categories. Only one is things that improve the health, particularly an ability of old people, or environmental projects improve the environment. And there are some wonderful, wonderful examples of both of those. For example, there's a Philippine student who discovered there's a lot of rotting fruit, happens in the Philippines because of hurricanes and so on. And he discovered that a mixture of certain rotting fruit, if you formed a paste from it and put it over a window as a sort of film, a green film. It created electricity from light, not sunshine, but light. And he showed me a pane of glass like a television screen, and he was charging his iPad from it. So that was utterly brilliant. And then a much sort of simpler example was a woman in Ireland who. A young student in Ireland whose mother had had cancer and lost her hair. And she designed a. You. There weren't enough freezing things in the hospital to. To keep your. Freeze your head, so she designed a portable one. We put on something that looked like quite a stylish hat, actually, with some tubes that went down to it. A cooling device in a handbag that you hang on your shoulder so that you could cool your head if you had cancer. You cool your head anywhere, actually, in the car, traveling or at home. And so the, you know, incredible. The thing I find interesting about this is it's wonderful that young people are thinking of those things and coming up with those solutions rather than talking about problems they're actually solving. So that. That's why I have huge faith in young people.
- [45:22]
Sponsor Voice
There seems to be a big difference between coming up with an idea where you see a problem. So hair falls out when you undertake chemotherapy. But the paste on the window, like, how does something like that manifest in somebody's mind? I think I'm just going to take the paste from these decaying fruits route, smear it on a window and see what happens.
- [45:45]
Debbie Millman
Yeah. He was rather an interesting person, actually, because he had entered our award two years earlier and not won it. So he carried on, he kept trying and trying again, experimenting, and then he won our global award. So the. I mean, every year I'm just amazed at how people take intractable problems and solve problems them for the good of the world. Yeah, they're not skateboards or, you know, something fancy. They're really trying to solve serious problems.
- [46:18]
Sponsor Voice
Sir James, I have one last question for you. If there was something you could invent tomorrow that would be instantly successful, anything at all, what would that be?
- [46:28]
Debbie Millman
Well, you can't think of things like that, so I'm not going to give an answer to that.
- [46:31]
Sponsor Voice
Oh, okay, good.
- [46:32]
Debbie Millman
Because you don't know something's going to be successful until you do it.
- [46:36]
Sponsor Voice
Okay.
- [46:36]
Debbie Millman
And it isn't always successful. Sometimes it's not, and I'm not sure, in a way, you shouldn't think of life in those terms because you should do what you want to do. It's something you have a passion for, and sometimes it works Sometimes it doesn't. But success or financial success isn't the only measure of success.
- [46:58]
Sponsor Voice
What is the most important aspect of success to you?
- [47:02]
Debbie Millman
Solving a problem and making something out of it. It. And it can be a big thing, it can be a small thing. It doesn't matter. But, well, maybe it does matter to some people, but either way, you know you've achieved something. You've changed in a very small way, the world. It's your achievement and that's what you were there to do, Make a difference.
- [47:25]
Sponsor Voice
Sir James Dyson, thank you so much for making so much work that matters. And thank you for joining me today on Design Matters.
- [47:32]
Debbie Millman
Well, I enjoyed talking to you. Thank you very much.
- [47:34]
Sponsor Voice
Thank you. To learn more about the great work of Sir Dyson, you can go to dyson.com or jamesdysonfoundation.com this is the 20th year we've been podcasting Design Matters and I'd like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference. We can make a difference or we can do both. I'm Debbie Melman and I look forward to talking with you again soon.
- [47:57]
Debbie Millman
Design Matters is produced for the TED.
- [47:59]
James Dyson
Audio Collective by Curtis Fox Production. The interviews are usually recorded at the.
- [48:04]
Debbie Millman
Masters in Branding program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest running branding program in the world. The editor in chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Weiland.
- [48:23]
James Dyson
Now at Verizon, we have some big news for your peace of mind. For all our customers existing and new, we're locking in low prices for three years guaranteeing on MyPlan and my home that's future you peace of mind and everyone can save on a brand new phone on MyPlan. When you trade in any phone from one of our top brands, that's new phone peace of mind. Because at Verizon, whether you're already a customer or you're just joining us, we got you. Visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.
- [48:54]
Capital One Voice
If you love to travel, Capital One has a rewards credit card that's perfect for you. With the Capital One Venture X card, you earn unlimited double miles on everything you buy. Plus you get premium benefits at a collection of luxury hotels when you book on Capital One Travel. And with Venture X you get access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. Open up a world of travel possibilities with a Capital One Venture X card. What's in your wallet?
- [49:20]
Debbie Millman
Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See capitalone.com for details. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [49:43]
Sponsor Voice
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