Design Matters with Debbie Millman: Lulu Miller Episode Summary

In the July 21, 2025 episode of Design Matters with Debbie Millman, host Debbie Millman engages in an in-depth conversation with Lulu Miller, a Peabody Award-winning journalist, essayist, and co-host of Radiolab. The episode delves into Lulu’s multifaceted career, her personal struggles, and the profound insights that led to her acclaimed book, Why Fish Don't Exist. Below is a comprehensive summary capturing the key discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn during their conversation.

Early Life and the Foundations of Writing

Lulu Miller begins by reflecting on her childhood in Newton, Massachusetts, where she was deeply influenced by her parents—her father a science professor and her mother a humanities professor. This unique blend fostered her early passion for writing and storytelling.

Quote:

“I always write, I'm just holding up these notes and like, I add some words get big and some get small. And I think it was just this feeling of I can take this story wherever it goes.”
— Lulu Miller [08:31]

Lulu recalls spending countless hours writing on long sheets of accordion computer paper, allowing her imagination to roam freely. Her early stories often featured whimsical narratives about talking animals and adventurous scenarios, blending imagination with the constraints of physical reality.

Epiphany on the Meaning of Life and Philosophical Influences

At the age of seven, during a family vacation to Wellfleet, Lulu posed a profound question to her father: "Do you know the meaning of life?" His response was a blunt assertion of nihilism, stating, “there is no meaning. There's no magic. There's no point.” This answer left a lasting impression on Lulu, shaping her worldview and philosophical inquiries.

Quote:

“He just took a big, what I believe to be delighted pause. And then he kind of chuckled and said, you know, there is no meaning.”
— Lulu Miller [11:08]

This interaction led Lulu to grapple with existential questions about happiness, purpose, and the nature of existence, eventually leading her to seek therapy and explore these themes more deeply in her work.

Career Beginnings: From Woodworking to Radiolab

After graduating with a history degree, Lulu moved to a basement apartment in Queens, where she worked as a woodworker's assistant. Her hands-on experience in woodworking ignited a passion for building and craftsmanship, which later translated into her appreciation for the tangible aspects of storytelling.

Quote:

“I loved building. Like, I built a chair, and I built this really weird standing light. And I think it just felt so satisfying to work with my hands.”
— Lulu Miller [23:35]

Through a job he found on Craigslist, Lulu connected with Rob Day, a participant in the Brooklyn Design Show, which ultimately led her to Radiolab. Immersed in the creative and communal environment of the Radiolab studio, she developed a deep love for radio journalism.

Personal Struggles and Mental Health Journey

Lulu candidly discusses her battles with depression and suicidal thoughts, particularly during her teenage years. These struggles were compounded by a desire to appear happy and unburdened, leading her to conceal her true emotions from those around her.

Quote:

“I wanted out. I should never do this. I'm messing with people's lives. I'm making people feel worse. I don't belong here.”
— Lulu Miller [00:01]

Her decision to seek therapy marked a pivotal moment, where she learned to accept dark thoughts without letting them overshadow her existence. This acceptance became a cornerstone of her resilience and ability to navigate complex emotional landscapes in her storytelling.

Radiolab and the Evolution of Storytelling

During her five-year tenure at Radiolab, Lulu honed her skills in narrative construction and ethical journalism. She emphasizes the importance of asking genuine questions and maintaining moral integrity in reporting.

Quote:

“It taught me, at least in conversation and in interviewing, to go for the question you're actually wondering about.”
— Lulu Miller [33:07]

Lulu shares anecdotes about pitching stories, such as the cowbird narrative, and the challenges of aligning human drama with scientific inquiry. Her time at Radiolab was marked by a relentless pursuit of meaningful stories that bridge science, philosophy, and personal experience.

Leaving Radiolab: A Quest for Creative Fulfillment

Driven by a desire to write fiction and grappling with feelings of inadequacy in journalism, Lulu decided to leave Radiolab and pursue an MFA in Creative Writing at the University of Virginia. This transition was fraught with personal turmoil, including a significant breakup that further influenced her creative direction.

Quote:

“I wanted to be the happy girl. Wanted to make sure no one thought that I was damaged or that I was anything but as perfect as I could possibly pretend to be.”
— Lulu Miller [17:27]

Her experiences during this period underscored the limitations of solitary creativity and propelled her toward collaborative projects and community-focused storytelling.

Discovering David Starr Jordan and Unveiling Complex Histories

Lulu’s research for Why Fish Don't Exist led her to the life of David Starr Jordan, a taxonomist whose work was both groundbreaking and deeply flawed. Initially seeing Jordan as a parable for human attempts to impose order on chaos, Lulu's exploration took a darker turn as she uncovered his involvement in the eugenics movement.

Quote:

“He was a marvel. I think at some point I called him like an acrobat of twirling anything negative about him into something positive.”
— Lulu Miller [56:26]

This revelation forced Lulu to reconcile her admiration for Jordan's scientific contributions with the ethical atrocities he perpetuated, highlighting the complex interplay between personal ambition and moral responsibility.

Thematic Exploration: Naming, Categories, and Human Perception

A central theme in Lulu’s work is the power of naming and categorization. In Why Fish Don't Exist, she delves into how scientific taxonomy can both reveal and obscure the complexities of the natural world.

Quote:

“The more scientifically accurate and useful thing to do is to say that fish don't exist. It is not a meaningful category.”
— Lulu Miller [66:13]

She extends this concept to human categorization, illustrating how arbitrary classifications can lead to exclusion and dehumanization, as exemplified by the eugenics movement. This philosophical inquiry challenges listeners to rethink the validity and impact of the categories they accept.

Returning to Radiolab and Embracing New Creative Ventures

In 2020, Lulu returned to Radiolab as a co-host, bringing with her a wealth of experience and a renewed sense of purpose. Concurrently, she launched a new podcast, Terrestrials, aimed at younger audiences. This venture stemmed from her desire to introduce nature-focused storytelling that is both educational and engaging for children.

Quote:

“Terrestrials is episode by episode, trying to show a world where every episode breaks our expectations of how creatures are supposed to work.”
— Lulu Miller [78:55]

Her role as a parent influenced this project, driving her to create content that emphasizes curiosity, wonder, and the importance of understanding the natural world from an early age.

Insights on Community Care and Future Endeavors

Lulu discusses her current focus on community care and mutual aid, inspired by her experiences as a parent and her work during challenging times such as the COVID-19 pandemic. She emphasizes the importance of collaborative efforts in addressing societal issues and fostering a more compassionate world.

Quote:

“Being a parent also has made me think more about the future. ... I'm trying to look at different ways that we can mend the world through community care, maybe through some mutual aid.”
— Lulu Miller [86:06]

Her ongoing projects aim to explore sustainable and empathetic approaches to societal improvement, blending her journalistic prowess with her commitment to meaningful impact.

Conclusion: A Journey of Resilience and Creative Integrity

Lulu Miller’s journey, as explored in this episode, is one of resilience, ethical exploration, and creative integrity. From her early influences and personal struggles to her professional milestones and philosophical inquiries, Lulu embodies the essence of designing a meaningful and impactful life.

Final Quote:

“If you have that voice, maybe I'm not meant to do this. That voice is the moral compass. I'd be concerned if you didn't have that voice.”
— Lulu Miller [72:20]

Debbie Millman closes the episode by acknowledging Lulu’s remarkable contributions and the profound insights shared, underscoring the episode's exploration of creativity, ethics, and the human condition.

Additional Resources:

• Podcast Episodes Featuring Lulu Miller:

  • Radiolab
  • Terrestrials

• Lulu Miller’s Book:

  • Why Fish Don't Exist

Listeners are encouraged to explore Lulu’s work further through her books and podcasts to gain a deeper understanding of her explorations into the intersections of science, philosophy, and storytelling.