Lulu Miller

Summary

Design Matters with Debbie Millman: Lulu Miller Episode Summary

In the July 21, 2025 episode of Design Matters with Debbie Millman, host Debbie Millman engages in an in-depth conversation with Lulu Miller, a Peabody Award-winning journalist, essayist, and co-host of Radiolab. The episode delves into Lulu’s multifaceted career, her personal struggles, and the profound insights that led to her acclaimed book, Why Fish Don't Exist. Below is a comprehensive summary capturing the key discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn during their conversation.

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Early Life and the Foundations of Writing

Lulu Miller begins by reflecting on her childhood in Newton, Massachusetts, where she was deeply influenced by her parents—her father a science professor and her mother a humanities professor. This unique blend fostered her early passion for writing and storytelling.

Quote:

“I always write, I'm just holding up these notes and like, I add some words get big and some get small. And I think it was just this feeling of I can take this story wherever it goes.”
— Lulu Miller [08:31]

Lulu recalls spending countless hours writing on long sheets of accordion computer paper, allowing her imagination to roam freely. Her early stories often featured whimsical narratives about talking animals and adventurous scenarios, blending imagination with the constraints of physical reality.

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Epiphany on the Meaning of Life and Philosophical Influences

At the age of seven, during a family vacation to Wellfleet, Lulu posed a profound question to her father: "Do you know the meaning of life?" His response was a blunt assertion of nihilism, stating, “there is no meaning. There's no magic. There's no point.” This answer left a lasting impression on Lulu, shaping her worldview and philosophical inquiries.

Quote:

“He just took a big, what I believe to be delighted pause. And then he kind of chuckled and said, you know, there is no meaning.”
— Lulu Miller [11:08]

This interaction led Lulu to grapple with existential questions about happiness, purpose, and the nature of existence, eventually leading her to seek therapy and explore these themes more deeply in her work.

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Career Beginnings: From Woodworking to Radiolab

After graduating with a history degree, Lulu moved to a basement apartment in Queens, where she worked as a woodworker's assistant. Her hands-on experience in woodworking ignited a passion for building and craftsmanship, which later translated into her appreciation for the tangible aspects of storytelling.

Quote:

“I loved building. Like, I built a chair, and I built this really weird standing light. And I think it just felt so satisfying to work with my hands.”
— Lulu Miller [23:35]

Through a job he found on Craigslist, Lulu connected with Rob Day, a participant in the Brooklyn Design Show, which ultimately led her to Radiolab. Immersed in the creative and communal environment of the Radiolab studio, she developed a deep love for radio journalism.

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Personal Struggles and Mental Health Journey

Lulu candidly discusses her battles with depression and suicidal thoughts, particularly during her teenage years. These struggles were compounded by a desire to appear happy and unburdened, leading her to conceal her true emotions from those around her.

Quote:

“I wanted out. I should never do this. I'm messing with people's lives. I'm making people feel worse. I don't belong here.”
— Lulu Miller [00:01]

Her decision to seek therapy marked a pivotal moment, where she learned to accept dark thoughts without letting them overshadow her existence. This acceptance became a cornerstone of her resilience and ability to navigate complex emotional landscapes in her storytelling.

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Radiolab and the Evolution of Storytelling

During her five-year tenure at Radiolab, Lulu honed her skills in narrative construction and ethical journalism. She emphasizes the importance of asking genuine questions and maintaining moral integrity in reporting.

Quote:

“It taught me, at least in conversation and in interviewing, to go for the question you're actually wondering about.”
— Lulu Miller [33:07]

Lulu shares anecdotes about pitching stories, such as the cowbird narrative, and the challenges of aligning human drama with scientific inquiry. Her time at Radiolab was marked by a relentless pursuit of meaningful stories that bridge science, philosophy, and personal experience.

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Leaving Radiolab: A Quest for Creative Fulfillment

Driven by a desire to write fiction and grappling with feelings of inadequacy in journalism, Lulu decided to leave Radiolab and pursue an MFA in Creative Writing at the University of Virginia. This transition was fraught with personal turmoil, including a significant breakup that further influenced her creative direction.

Quote:

“I wanted to be the happy girl. Wanted to make sure no one thought that I was damaged or that I was anything but as perfect as I could possibly pretend to be.”
— Lulu Miller [17:27]

Her experiences during this period underscored the limitations of solitary creativity and propelled her toward collaborative projects and community-focused storytelling.

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Discovering David Starr Jordan and Unveiling Complex Histories

Lulu’s research for Why Fish Don't Exist led her to the life of David Starr Jordan, a taxonomist whose work was both groundbreaking and deeply flawed. Initially seeing Jordan as a parable for human attempts to impose order on chaos, Lulu's exploration took a darker turn as she uncovered his involvement in the eugenics movement.

Quote:

“He was a marvel. I think at some point I called him like an acrobat of twirling anything negative about him into something positive.”
— Lulu Miller [56:26]

This revelation forced Lulu to reconcile her admiration for Jordan's scientific contributions with the ethical atrocities he perpetuated, highlighting the complex interplay between personal ambition and moral responsibility.

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Thematic Exploration: Naming, Categories, and Human Perception

A central theme in Lulu’s work is the power of naming and categorization. In Why Fish Don't Exist, she delves into how scientific taxonomy can both reveal and obscure the complexities of the natural world.

Quote:

“The more scientifically accurate and useful thing to do is to say that fish don't exist. It is not a meaningful category.”
— Lulu Miller [66:13]

She extends this concept to human categorization, illustrating how arbitrary classifications can lead to exclusion and dehumanization, as exemplified by the eugenics movement. This philosophical inquiry challenges listeners to rethink the validity and impact of the categories they accept.

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Returning to Radiolab and Embracing New Creative Ventures

In 2020, Lulu returned to Radiolab as a co-host, bringing with her a wealth of experience and a renewed sense of purpose. Concurrently, she launched a new podcast, Terrestrials, aimed at younger audiences. This venture stemmed from her desire to introduce nature-focused storytelling that is both educational and engaging for children.

Quote:

“Terrestrials is episode by episode, trying to show a world where every episode breaks our expectations of how creatures are supposed to work.”
— Lulu Miller [78:55]

Her role as a parent influenced this project, driving her to create content that emphasizes curiosity, wonder, and the importance of understanding the natural world from an early age.

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Insights on Community Care and Future Endeavors

Lulu discusses her current focus on community care and mutual aid, inspired by her experiences as a parent and her work during challenging times such as the COVID-19 pandemic. She emphasizes the importance of collaborative efforts in addressing societal issues and fostering a more compassionate world.

Quote:

“Being a parent also has made me think more about the future. ... I'm trying to look at different ways that we can mend the world through community care, maybe through some mutual aid.”
— Lulu Miller [86:06]

Her ongoing projects aim to explore sustainable and empathetic approaches to societal improvement, blending her journalistic prowess with her commitment to meaningful impact.

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Conclusion: A Journey of Resilience and Creative Integrity

Lulu Miller’s journey, as explored in this episode, is one of resilience, ethical exploration, and creative integrity. From her early influences and personal struggles to her professional milestones and philosophical inquiries, Lulu embodies the essence of designing a meaningful and impactful life.

Final Quote:

“If you have that voice, maybe I'm not meant to do this. That voice is the moral compass. I'd be concerned if you didn't have that voice.”
— Lulu Miller [72:20]

Debbie Millman closes the episode by acknowledging Lulu’s remarkable contributions and the profound insights shared, underscoring the episode's exploration of creativity, ethics, and the human condition.

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Additional Resources:

• Podcast Episodes Featuring Lulu Miller:

  • Radiolab
  • Terrestrials

• Lulu Miller’s Book:

  • Why Fish Don't Exist

Listeners are encouraged to explore Lulu’s work further through her books and podcasts to gain a deeper understanding of her explorations into the intersections of science, philosophy, and storytelling.

Transcript

[Lulu Miller]

She finally looked at me and was just like, what are you doing here? Your questions aren't gonna bring him back. I didn't have an answer. And I remember driving back like 14 hours to new York through this thunderstorm, just thinking, like, I don't have an answer. I don't have the, like, backbone. I don't have the, like, ethical compass to be doing this work. This microphone is too powerful and I have not grown up enough to hold it. And at that time I was just like, I want out. I should never do this. I'm messing with people's lives. I'm making people feel worse. I don't belong here.

[Debbie Millman]

From the TED Audio Collective, this is Design Matters with Debbie Millman. On Design Matters, Debbie talks with some of the most creative people in the world about what they do, how they got to be who they are and what they're thinking about and working on. On this episode, writer and radio host Lulu Miller talks about the conflicts in her career and about going deep into reporting.

[Lulu Miller]

Literally smelling the pocket notebook, his archives that I eventually visited, that had been like collecting the sweat near his heart. Like, I got intimate with this guy.

[James]

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[Fuhad]

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[N/A]

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[Hannah]

Hey guys, it's Hannah from Giggly Squad. You know I love beauty and that's why I go to Sephora. It's not just shopping, it's like a glam experience. The beauty advisors actually get beauty, unlike those big box stores and they give me all the advice I need. And I love going with the products you can only find at Sephora, like my new favorite Kayali fragrance, my perfect shade of Haus Labs foundation, and finally restocked my Lineage Lip mask, all with the help of real experts. Oh, and if you haven't tried Day Shampoo, go try it. It's a game changer. Sephora isn't just a store, it's the beauty destination. Go. You'll thank me later.

[N/A]

Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award winning journalist, an essayist, the co host of Radiolab, and The founder of the podcast Terrestri, she's also the co founder of Invisibilia, the groundbreaking NPR show that explored the invisible forces that shape human behavior. Lulu is also a prolific writer and her work has appeared in the New Yorker, the Virginia Quarterly Review, and Catapult. And her first book, why Fish Don't Exist, was named a best book of the year by npr, the Washington Post, the Smithsonian, and so many others. Known for her curiosity, her rigor, and unmistakable voice, Lulu's work blends science, philosophy, and personal storytelling in ways that make us rethink what we think we know about the world and about ourselves. Lulu Miller, welcome to Design Matters.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, Debbie, it's so nice to be here.

[N/A]

So, Lulu, I want to start with this question. It was very bewildering to me, actually. Is it true that your least favorite word in the world is cerulean?

[Lulu Miller]

I hate it. I can't believe you found that random interview. Yes. I think cerulean is like the. It's like the epitome of everything wrong with words. I think it is this overly fancy, showy wood for something that, like, we, we all have access to a beauty. We all have access to the sky. Like that. That. That beau. The color is one of my favorite things that is out there. And then this word, to me, it's just too fancy. And I get that maybe in a sort of the way it sounds, it kind of sounds like pools and it's like cerulean. I do get little images in my head, but I just think it's too fancy and it just makes people feel bad who don't know what it means. And I hate that word when I see it.

[N/A]

Do you hate the color? I love the color.

[Lulu Miller]

I think it is one of the best colors. And that's probably why I feel so passionately about the word. And like, if I hear someone using it, I try not to be judgy, but I judge. Oh, yeah. Who are you trying to shut out with that word? And what pedestal are you trying to put yourself on top of? Yeah, I really have beef with that word.

[N/A]

Well, in the four color printing process, we have a bunch of different colors, one of which is a word that I hate, but I also hate the color, which is cyan. Very, very close cousins of cerulean.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah. Why do you hate that? Why do you hate the word?

[N/A]

The name is so cyan. Yeah, really ugly, ugly word.

[Lulu Miller]

Well, to me, cyan. I don't know, the Y gives it a little shimmer. Like, I like the cyan. Anyway, it's so weird, these associations we bring.

[N/A]

But I. I love that you have words that you love and hate. I do too. And it's fun to be able to talk to that with somebody that doesn't think I'm weird. Lulu, you grew up in Newton, Massachusetts. Your father was a science professor, your mother was a professor of humanities. Not a surprise you started writing at a very young age. And I read that you did this by taking reams of computer paper, this sort of old school continu accordion sheet with tearaway preparations on the side from your dad's computer to his printer and wrote for hours without ever tearing the paper so this long sheet of paper would emerge with your writing. How long did the accordion paper get?

[Lulu Miller]

I mean, it would be. These questions are so great. It would be longer than the bed I was lying on, and I would write on my stomach. I would go into my parents bedroom when they were out doing other things and just feel like the queen bed was this like massive pool of, you know, like a horizon, like anything was possible. And then the paper itself would feel like sledding, like I could go anywhere. And, you know, I'm still doing it. I mean, right here, I still kind of do a version of it. I always write, I'm just holding up these, these notes and like, I add some words get big and some get small. And I think it was just this feeling of I can take this story wherever it goes, you know, and they were usually, when I was little, they were just like wild things about talking animals and, oh, you know, a bat. And let's, oh, here's a sunken boat. Let's get the bat. If it got on the steering wheel of the boat, could it lodge it out of the mud and take it down the river? And just kind of keep doing this mix of my imagination and then physical reality and just keep being seeming where those two things with kind of the imagination with the constraint of physical reality would go. And there. Yeah, there is just. There's something so inviting about that literal white page and words being able to in moments become drawings and then go back to words and. Yeah, it's like I'm getting chills right now thinking about it, just because it felt so delicious and fun, like a really neat way to just kind of escape.

[N/A]

I was really fascinated by that bat story mostly because somehow in that story, your dad is able to catch the bat in Tupperware.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah. Yeah. So that one, I think was inspired by this bat that flew into our house. And my dad went up on a ladder to get it in Tupperware. And we all, my mom and sisters and I ran out. I don't know why we were so afraid of the bat, but it was some instinctual, like, human fly, they're not rodents, but whatever flying thing response. But then we left him there and he was like, screaming, help. Help, help. Cause he hadn't brought up a top or a piece of paper. So then there was this angry bat in the Tupperware. And then finally, I think my mom went back in and got him a top. And then.

[N/A]

Yeah, I learned from your book that we'll talk about in a bit, about the fact that bats aren't rodents. But we'll talk about that later. But it is a fascinating fact. When you were seven years old, you went on vacation with your family to Wellfleet, and there, standing in a marsh, you asked your father if he knew the meaning of life.

[Lulu Miller]

Yep.

[N/A]

What did he tell you?

[Lulu Miller]

He kind of took a big, what I believe to be delighted pause. And then he kind of chuckled and said, you know, there is no meaning. There's no magic. There's no point. There's no plan, there's no destiny, there's no God, there's no heaven. Just, like, just stamped out everything, including meaning. I mean, which was really, like, interesting. He just is kind of. And then he went on this tirade about how we're no different than the ants right below our feet. And we're just kind of walking around. We happen, you know, evolution happened to have put us here on the planet. And if you look at the whole timeline of evolution, where this tiny pinch that's just here at the. At this moment and will probably be gone soon, and things like cockroaches and horseshoe crabs will probably outlive us. And we're not any more important to the world or the planet than anything else. And we're just. It's all kind of random. And then I think he paused and said, actually, we might be less important to the planet than many things like ants that, you know, at least decompose particles and sometimes aerate the soil. And I don't see us doing much of that. So. Yeah.

[N/A]

Did that mean that he didn't think that anything mattered?

[Lulu Miller]

He walks around and says stuff like that all the time with kind of. And not in a depressive way. In a very, like, delightful, nihilist, carpe diem sort of way. And in a sort of, like, playfully provocative way. He certainly says that, and I certainly believed that for a long time. Although watching him, I think things really do matter to him. I think people matter to him and making people feel good matters to him. I think ceramics, he got back into throwing pots in his retirement matters to him. I think humor matters to him. You know, you see things that matter. But he would say no.

[N/A]

It's a big concept to share with a 7 year old. And you described your father's answer to your question as a kind of thunderbolt. What did it feel to be handed that truth at seven?

[Lulu Miller]

I mean, it felt normal. Like, I mean, now that I have an almost seven year old, I think that I am taken aback of, like, not even that it was harsh, but how declarative it was. Like it was its own kind of certainty and its own kind of dogma, which I just being such a daddy's girl, like, believed and didn't question for a long time. But at the time it felt like, oh, like it was the spiritual truth that I then just needed to. I mean, and a part of me still believes it. Like, I haven't totally shaken it at all. So I think it just felt like, hmm, okay, well, that feels like truth. And somehow if I abide by that, I'll get to a place where I'm like this guy who loves his family and loves his work and doesn't really care what people think of him and is weird and funny and seems to be pretty happy. So it felt like a key. It felt true.

[N/A]

Thereafter, you've written about how many of the big questions that you ask your parents about life were met with a mix of nihilism or ambiguity. And it seems, looking at your timeline, that this is also when you started to feel questions about what it meant to be happy or depressed, you started to see a therapist. Do you think that that had any correlation?

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, yeah. I don't think it made me depressed or like anything like that. But I do think that when I got to my lowest, and I feel so much more comfortable talking about this now that I've written about it. But, like, once I would feel suicidal, which now I'm like, oh, I believe about 50% of people feel that at some point. I don't think it's as scary of a thing to say as I used to. But yeah, like, once I felt like, oh, life is too hard or humanity is too hard on people, and I don't have any hope that we're going to change because I don't have faith, I don't have a religious system. I don't think that evolution necessarily guarantees any kind of moral evolution. And if I just feel small and not good at changing the world and not good at feeling happy. And I just feel sad about the way certain people are being treated and I don't have hope in our species. Yeah. Then some days I would want to leave the planet and leave existence and I would think about. That's when I would think about it. That's when it would rise up and be like, there's no point, it doesn't matter. And I think I would always remember feeling like, oh, well, if I'm someone who came out, who evolution spat out with thinner skin and life hurts, then I guess like if nothing matters except maybe our sensory experiences and it feels painful to be alive, then maybe I'll just take myself out. And that was kind of. That's when it would come back up. It was like right when I'd be at the edge. And then this thing felt like a neon sign saying go over. You know, like it didn't. I couldn't find a chain link fence. I couldn't find a reason not to. Although I guess obviously I did cause spoiler alert, I'm still alive.

[N/A]

Well, you described feeling at that time that you had a parable sized hole in your heart. And you, you have spoken candidly about trying to end your life when you were 15, after you left the medical facility. When you recovered, you've written about how your body was probably crying for help, but your words and your brain were still smiling and laughing and reassuring that you were fine, if not more. Yeah, Yeah, I did that too. As I was growing up, I went through quite a lot of really terrible, abusive experiences, but always wanted to be the happy girl. Wanted to make sure no one thought that I was damaged or that I was anything but as perfect as I could possibly pretend to be.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah.

[N/A]

For you, was that a survival mechanism? Did you feel that you were less than people if you weren't happy or smiling all the time?

[Lulu Miller]

I mean, I was horribly embarrassed because like word got out and I wasn't allowed to go on this art trip. I was so excited about. Cause the school thought I was too much of a risk. And I think I wanted a. I didn't want anyone to have to worry about. I didn't want any of my friends or adults to like think that I was a concern. I think that was like. The biggest thing is like, I wanted to show that like, okay, this community of people knew about it in my school. And after that moment I just wanted to project like. I think, I don't know. I think. Okay, you know what? I think it partly was because I Don't have that much faith in or any belief in an arc that bends toward good. And because I saw humans doing such pain, I knew how to make people feel good. I did know how to do that. I think I learned how to do that in my family. I enjoyed if I'm doing anything, I enjoyed making people feel, feel good. Not saying the kinds of things that make spikes come out, saying the kinds of things that, like, ease the little scared animal person out, and seeing what a difference that made with my oldest sister, who was just, like, horrifically bullied to the point of dropping out, and just how differently she could be if you were kind to her or not. Like, it's just simple. But I really wanted to make people feel better. And so I think I just wanted to, like, double down and go back to that and be providing jokes and be providing an ear and, like, I'm not a thing you need to worry about. I want to worry about you. I'm just more comfortable in that space. And I felt like that's one of the few things I know how to do that I think I can bring. That's good. And so I just wanted to get back there as quick as possible and then have more people later in my life have no clue I'd ever been that low. That felt important to me for so long. It doesn't anymore.

[N/A]

Well, I found it really, really. I don't know that ironic is the right word here, but really quite compelling that you didn't want anybody to worry about you, but you were worrying about everyone at that time. What were you worrying about?

[Lulu Miller]

I mean, probably I was just worrying about the exact equal and opposite response in somebody else. I think I was just worrying about someone feeling alone in their room. I mean, probably just kind of the image of my oldest sister just, like, at a period in her life where she was so lonely and had basically no one who understood her. That was kind of the formative concern of just not wanting someone to feel that awful, not wanting someone to feel that alone. And I think that was like, an initial driver. And I should say people totally worried about me. Both of my sisters worried about me. My mom worried about me. I think my dad did in his way. Like, I was being cared for, and I was so lucky in so many ways. It's just, you know, sometimes you just come out all misshapen and oversensitive, even when you have lots of resources.

[N/A]

Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting to think about the fact that you're worrying about other people. You don't Want them to worry about you, but they're worried about you and not wanting to let you know that they're worried about you in effort for everybody to protect each other and be cared for. Yeah. At 16, you finally found a therapist. You've stated the charade finally stopped. And I'm really curious. What did she help you understand that no one else was able to up until that point?

[Lulu Miller]

Monica Meehan McNamara. Let's shout out her full name. She was so great. She just helped me understand that you can have a dark thought and it doesn't have to set off a red thought. I mean, that was one of the biggest things was. It was like the first place after all that, where I was still really tangled on the inside. I could feel her concern and her care, but I also could feel, like, her curiosity to get. To get beyond. Just, like, it was okay to have these hard thoughts. And that just felt like part of living. And she really didn't care as much about, like, the symptoms so much as what was going on on the inside. And she talked to me like an adult. And I think it was just like this. This space. I could be really real and feel someone being really curious about me.

[N/A]

At that point in your life, what did you think you wanted to do professionally?

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, I wanted to be a novelist through and through. That was the dream. I didn't know if I could, but that was like, I wanted to just stay in my pajamas all day, get my little cup of coffee, see the world for a moment, and then disappear into that same imaginative space that we talked about. The perforated paper dreaming up a story. And I think, again, I just wanted to minimize interactions with the real world because they stressed me out, they made me sad, and they drained me, and I was intimidated. And so my dream life was to curl away from it all day.

[N/A]

But you majored in history when you went to college.

[Lulu Miller]

I did. I felt like I had a real lack of understanding of the broader world and how we got here. And I had taken a few classes in high school, but in my high school, you could drop history really early. So I did. And I had done all this art, and then I was in college, and I think I took a couple. I think maybe I took a philosophy class. And it was so heady and intimidating that I was like, okay, I don't even understand all these different kinds of, like, criticisms of ideas. I just want to learn about some facts before I'm out of here. And so, yeah, I majored in history in a way, because I felt like I should. No one told me that, but I just felt like I needed to learn more about the world.

[N/A]

After college, you moved into a basement apartment in Queens. Sounds swanky.

[Lulu Miller]

Four of us in a three.

[N/A]

Oh, yeah. I lived in a railroad flat with two other people. It was challenging. You began working as a woodworker's assistant. I think at that point, you also had some interest in sculpture.

[Lulu Miller]

Mm. Yeah. So. Also, similarly, in college, I majored in history, but I took as much studio art as I could, and I was doing that the whole way through printmaking, painting, pottery, and then woodworking. And I just loved the smell of it. I loved building. Like, I built a chair, and I built this really weird standing light. And I think it just felt so satisfying to work with my hands. And so when I was, you know, I wasn't very good, but I had some familiarity with the tools. And so I got this job off Craigslist for this guy, Rob Day, who had submitted to the Brooklyn Design show. And he got his spot, but he got in based on tiny models, and he'd never built the real ones. And so he hired me for, like, a year, basically, to build out this line. And we built a bunch of tables and a bench and a credenza. And I just learned from him. Day after day, he was in a shared communal space in Brooklyn, and we had the radio on all day in that studio. And that was, like, truly how I fell in love with radio.

[N/A]

And you fell in love with this American Life and Radiolab? Yeah, I mean, of course.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, it was early. It was 2005, and they just. I mean, my parents had listened to NPR all the time as a kid, but I hated it as a kid. I was like, public radio sounds boring. Get on Jammin 945. But this was like. It was so. It just sounded so different to me. But the news shows, too. Brian Lehrer, Leonard Lope. Like, just the morning news. I think I was absorbing information that' I realized I loved listening. Like, I just loved it. This American life popped out as just this place with all this humor and irreverence and wild stories that were real. And then Radiolab just felt like this. You know, it was early days of experimenting with sound in that way for journalism. And there were just these, like, stories with these musical pockets of wonder, the kinds of questions you're kind of told to stop asking. And here were these two adult men debating things with. With scientists. And it was just this beacon. I was like, I wanna reside in there. I wanna go there.

[N/A]

Although you had no Previous training in radio journalism. You wrote what you've described as a deranged formal intern love letter to Radiolab in order to trick them into giving you a job.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah.

[N/A]

So did you write, like, dear Jed, dear Robert. Who did you write it to? What? Do you remember any part of it?

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, I mean, I wrote it to the whole team. I could probably find it. I'm sure I have it somewhere. But, yeah, I mean, basically I said, like, I have fallen in love with your show. I know you do not need me. I can tell based on your website that you are like a kitchen well stocked with incredible chefs. I mean, I know my line was like, sometimes too many chefs in the kitchen is a problem, but sometimes a chef walks by and sprinkles, like, a little hand of cilantro that brings everything together. I could beat your cilantro. Let me be your cilantro. And that was. And then they. I remember it because they called me cilantro for, like, years. Yeah, that was my moonshot.

[N/A]

You began volunteering one day a week, and while still working for the woodworker, you said they dropped you out of the nest really quickly.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, so quick.

[N/A]

How? In what way?

[Lulu Miller]

I mean, it was this tiny little shop. It was just three of us up in the old. The old WNYC building where we were up on the 27th floor, and the bubblegum pink walls. And, you know, they were doing. I mean, the one I really remember, we were doing a show on self deception. And these psychologists had done a survey of things that people might lie to themselves about. Like, if they enjoy their own bowel movements and if they've had rape fantasies and if they've had X, Y, Z, like, all these things. And I took the survey out to Times Square and asked people, man on the street, to answer the questions. I'm turning fuchsia right now. Like, it was so. It was. And. But I just did it. I mean, I just was like. They were like, oh, just go do that. And there was no, Like. Like, it'll be scary. You'll be okay. They're like, oh, just go do that. Come back with some tape. Some people say yes, some people say no. And so I was just like, okay, sounds sure. Great. And then, like, you know, put on the head, like, just freak out for about half an hour in Times Square, put on the headphones, take this, like, you know, super invasive shotgun mic out. And, you know. And I remember going out with another reporter, Sally Herships, and she just was great at it. She was more experienced. And then my Trick was like, just pretend you're Sally. Whenever you do this, just pretend you're Sally. You're not Lulu, you're Sally. And she'd go up, she'd be curious, she'd ask. She didn't do a whole lot of disclaiming and apologizing, she just did it. And I would just pretend to be her. So it was stuff like that.

[N/A]

Where on the continuum did people fall on the liking or not liking their bowel movements?

[Lulu Miller]

I mean, a surprising amount of people answered that they did. I mean, a ton of people were like, oh, I don't know. But a ton of people. I mean, you can go back to that episode and listen to the tape. A lot of people answered honestly about stuff that felt taboo, and I think even felt more taboo then when there wasn't as much like TikTok and a poop emoji even just like normalizing that. I remember it being shocking and funny and. Yeah.

[N/A]

One of the first episodes that you worked on was with Robert on the episode Detective Stories. And I believe the first interview you did on your own was the show about an elderly man who had begun having musical hallucinations.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah.

[N/A]

Were you involved at all in finding the guests or coming up with show ideas in addition to working on putting them all together?

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, I mean, that was. I was always pitching and I wouldn't say any got through until I'd been there for a couple years. But I kind of liked to think of myself as a bottomless well of bad ideas. Like I would just pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch. And I had bands. I wasn't allowed to pitch synesthesia anymore. We've still never done a show, but part of me is like, you know, as hosts, maybe I should bring that back. But. And I remember I kept pitching this story about cowbirds who lay their eggs in other birds nests. And it got a no, no, no, no, no, no, no, for years, until I kind of of finally found an angle that had a human story and a question about how we moralize on nature. But yeah, and so I think I was always trying and then just learning by watching a million pitch meetings, like, what got through. And it was basically when Jad was surprised, like you just see his eyes, and he'd start asking like all these little follow up questions. And it was when things didn't live too much in a cerebral land, like they brushed by it, but they didn't stay there. And it was when the narrative just was so strong that he'd just start asking these really human stories. And so I don't know. I just learned to watch which kind of pitches got that reaction and just tried again and again and again to craft them so they would get that.

[N/A]

You learned how to make radio at a time when listeners couldn't pause or rewind or fast forward. Did that change, impact the kinds of stories you were creating at Radiolab at that time, both before being able to do that and after? Was there any significant change in the way that the radio was being made?

[Lulu Miller]

I mean, I still think about the lack of pause button in every story. So in a way, maybe I haven't evolved with it, but I remember Jad once saying, like, you know, this story has to be a freight train. Someone turns on the radio and just like, it's whizzing by and you want to get on no matter where you turn it on. And so that would mean, basically, the narrative and the tape was so interesting, you'd just want to ride on if you hopped on in the middle. But it would also mean you can't have something, like, so technical that you'd have to go back to reread it. Essentially. You know, those stories, like, especially the early days, they did just have this engine. I am just furiously thinking about how to not waste someone's time. Like, I'm furiously thinking about how to whittle, whittle, whittle, until. Not that it's necessarily the cuts are as fast. It's not that, but it's that. Like, maybe you have a very eerie, long part that's really slow, but then it's, like, juxtaposed. I don't know. I still almost create as though there isn't the rewind button. Because I think of that as. As a good narrative pressure. Like, I want someone to not want.

[N/A]

To press any button, to press the.

[Lulu Miller]

Like. Yeah. To go to a different podcast, which I think. So I learned how to create in a time when you couldn't really press the buttons. And now I like what you just said. And now I'm trying to create in a way that makes you forget you have buttons.

[N/A]

You worked at Radiolab for over five years. How did working there and working with the people that you did, some of the most brilliant people in radio and podcasting, some of the real pioneers, how did they influence your sense of rhythm and moral tension and the various other important aspects of creating stories that have meaning?

[Lulu Miller]

Probably the two biggest things are. One, it taught me, at least in conversation and in interviewing, to go for the question you're actually wondering about. And, like, I just saw time and time Again, someone making this move that the part of me growing up that was like, afraid of hurting or afraid of bothering or not wanting to take up space or whatever, like, all that coached me to be one way in space conversationally. And then I would see all these different interviewers who are working on the show just ask the person what they really wondered and like, how dignifying that is. And also how many different ways there are to be direct. Like, you know, it can have a little edge or it doesn't have to. And you could be really efficient with your words. And some people like me, still just take a second to wind up, but there can be directness in it too. And like, I think it just taught me that this move that I had kind of incorrectly cordoned off as confrontational or always negative or aggressive or something, that just being direct, like, that's often so dignifying and it often gets you so quickly to the most interesting spaces. And it's often like a real. You know, there can be some confrontation, there can be some challenge, but most of the time, like, that is the kindness. And that was a revolution. I mean, that was like a revolution for me about how to be with people as a journalist, as a reporter, as an interviewer, but as just also as a person. I still have to remember that when my headphones aren't in and I'm not in the theater of it all, I still default to. I bite my tongue and I go to being polite. But I try, you know, so that was a real revolution. And then I think in terms of craft, it's part of why I was barking about the word cerulean. Like, I think mostly about Jad as the person who, you know. Cause he would sit with me and we'd move parts of stories out and, you know, we talk about stuff a lot. So I think of him as kind of the real mentor for me. But like, he didn't wanna sound smart and he didn't care. Like when pitches or stories got into that space where they're just expounding and you can hear almost like a flatness, there was just a low tolerance for that. And I think he wanted to be deep. He wanted to, like, take a narrative and have it lead you into bust up some belief or, you know, lead you somewhere deep. But he didn't wanna do it in a way that was off putting or exclusive. And so I think it honed this. This dive to be deep without talking about ideas in a way that excludes people.

[N/A]

You left Radiolab to go to the university of Virginia to fulfill your, quote, dream of getting an MFA in creative writing before you felt like you got too old and had never tried.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah.

[N/A]

But you were also in deep recovery from heartbreak at that time. How did that impact your decision to leave Radiolab and go back to school?

[Lulu Miller]

So the breakup, the me cheating leading to a breakup, happened about a month into the program, so I left.

[N/A]

Ah, okay.

[Lulu Miller]

So it wasn't like the clean line of, oh, I'm hurting and I'll go. But I think it was since I was little, I'd wanted to spend time creating fiction. But the reason that, that I think drive came back and arose in me while I had this dream job. It was like 2010. Radiolab was one of the only podcasts like you were around. Radiolab was around there just a few of us out there who got to make our money doing it, make our earn our living doing it. But I had had this experience out when I was reporting on this story, actually the cowbird one. I mentioned where I'd found that. That human tie in. And it was about a man who died fighting a fire he had set to protect the warbler that the cowbird was parasitizing. And I went out to tell that whole story of who they thought was the bad guy, and they thought it was the cowbird, but then it was us by preventing forest fires. And then I talked to the family and the brother and the sister and the mom of the guy who had died. And the mom was in this kitchen in Michigan, and she was just like. And the power went out, and there was this very eerie interview. And she finally looked at me and was just like, what are you doing here? Your questions aren't going to bring him back. And I don't think I had a good answer. I think I was like, in my heart, I wanted to do a story about cowbirds, and having there be a human drama attached to it was a way to make it interesting. I didn't have an answer. And I remember driving back, like, 14 hours to New York through this thunderstorm, just thinking, like, I don't have an answer. I don't have the backbone. I don't have the ethical compass to be doing this work. This microphone is too powerful, and I have not grown up enough to hold it. And at that time, I was just like, I want out. I should never do this. I'm messing with people's lives. I'm making people feel worse. I don't belong here. I was so ashamed of myself, honestly, that I just was like, I can't do journalism. They're journalists who are tough, who have that ethical. But I don't have it. So I left and I just wanted to go back to hiding out as I saw it in fiction. And then the breakup happened, right, right at the beginning. And I just spent these two years. In many ways, it was so dreamy. It was the first. I had a front porch, I had space. Like, I loved Virginia, I loved the wilderness, I loved hiking and swimming in the rivers. But it was a very lonely time too. I wasn't very good at writing fiction. I would write these stories and see nobody moved in the workshop, including the professors.

[N/A]

I think you called it the flatness on the faces of your classmates.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, I mean, it was just like, yeah, I could. And then, you know, then the problem of. I have. So I admire people who can write an novel. Like, for me, staying in my head was like precisely the wrong prescription for what I needed right then. I felt shame about my journalism at Radiolab. That moment, that kind of moment, I felt shame about my breakup, which I had caused by cheating. And then I just burrowed into my head where I was met with like anger and more shame. And it was a very. I mean, parts of that experience were wonderful, but like, it was. I think I learned pretty rapidly you're not finding a way out in your head.

[James]

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[Lulu Miller]

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[N/A]

A topic that had been coming back into your consciousness at that time was a story you had heard back when you were first working at Radiolab. You were getting a tour of the back rooms at the California Academy of Sciences and heard about a taxonomist named David Starr Jordan who had lost thousands of fish specimens he discovered and named and tagged back in the 1906 earthquake in San Francisco. What intrigued you most about this particular story?

[Lulu Miller]

I'm chuckling. Cause it's just like that me had no idea what a big part of her life this random old taxonomist would become. But, yeah, he just felt like such a parable for the human condition. We are born into chaos to the life. You know, this. This picture my dad painted, the meaninglessness, the evolution, what works. You know, we're blown onto this planet and chaos will keep having its way and with us. And tornadoes will come and earthquakes will come and destroy any order we try to make. Like, that is just what will happen. That is like our lot. And yet humans keep trying to do beautiful things and build palaces and build technology and all, you know, build sanctuaries and order the world to make it better or to make it beautiful or to make it better for them or whatever. And we never. We just keep doing it. It's like, in the face of these ultimately doomed odds, we're all gonna die. Everything we make is gonna get destroyed. And so for me, like, we all live that in our lives all the time. But he had such a. Like, to me, it was just comically proportioned that he was a taxonomist. His job was literally to create order in the world of fish. He spent years compiling this lab and all these specimens, and then an earthquake destroyed it. And it's not just that it destroyed it. It separated the names from the specimens. Like, it felt reverse biblical, reverse genesis. Like, your knowledge, your order is ripped off. If it was me, I'd give up. And he just. He just invents this technique of tying the label to the fish with a sewing needle. And that felt like there was something comical to me in it. Like, did you ever read those Spy versus Spy comics? Like, the. It would be like one would do one thing and then one would get bigger and one would do another. That's what it felt like to me. It was just like man trying to outsmart chaos. And to me, it's just, chaos is gonna win. And so I don't know. When I first heard about that, he felt foolish. He felt like Icarus in a way. Like, he was flying too close to the sun. He was flying too close to the earthquake. My Thought was, okay, you're gonna sew it to a fish, but then something else will happen, a fire or like whatever, you know, a flood or decay itself will erode that thread. So he stuck in my mind. But then he. At first glance, when I first saw him, I kind of felt sure about what he was. And then. Yeah, and then in that time in my life when I was just really not sure what to do and how to move forward, I just started thinking about him and I started realizing he's not a parable, he's a person. I literally just wondered what happened to him. And I wanted to write like a one page essay and find out what happened. What happened to him? What happened to his collection.

[N/A]

You ended up writing a 35 page single spaced essay. What set this fire in you?

[Lulu Miller]

Again, I think it was like the belief that I was going to write this one page prose poem, man vs. Chaos, find out was he a cautionary tale or did things end okay? You know, I think I was kind of hoping for his demise, but also so hoping not. I don't know. And then it just, you know, I found his. He had written so much, he was so prolific. And I found his autobiography, which was this huge honking, double wide thing with all these charming moments. And no one had really written about him, so he wasn't someone who there was a lot of discourse about. He felt like my own little person to explore and almost like radio. It was just like there was all this tape, there was all this writing, and then I could kind of excise the gems. And then his story crashed into all these things. Like it crashed into the eugenics movement in a very startling, massive way. It crashed into a potential murder story. And then it ultimately crashed into this existential story about fish, in particular this idea of taxonomy, but also more broadly, it took me years to understand it, but I read in Carol Kasich Yoon's book about this idea that fish, as a meaningful category had been killed by scientists. And that had happened in the 80s. And I'm like, why do I not know that fish don't exist? Why does ev. Every serious scientist think, thinks fish don't exist, but I don't know that. And that feels connected to this guy. And I don't know, there were just like these, all these little threads that I wanted to understand and that felt important for my understanding of the world that we are all trying to hack our way through. And so yeah, it just, I think it spiraled because of how rich the primary source document trove was. And then how many weird things seemed to be waiting in the wings that I could like research myself to.

[N/A]

I want to describe David Star Jordan a little bit. The good parts for our listeners. He sailed around the globe for decades persistently in search of new fish species and to find new clues to reveal more about what he referred to as nature's hidden blueprint. And he worked so tirelessly that he and his crew would eventually discover one fifth of the fish known to man in his day. One fifth. It's just incomprehensible to me. He also did have a controversial life filled with a lot of bad decisions, both scientific and personal. And these have impacted how the world views him and has diluted his scientific contributions in many ways. You didn't know about these sort of bad decisions prior to finding his autobiography. Did his autobiography in any way describe what he was sort of the more end of his life stories in any kind of objective way or was he just very happy with who he became and that was that.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, he was so happy. He is an expert in protecting his self image. If anything, he does reveal that. I mean he talks about how his colleagues would comment upon how basically I don't have it exactly right but it's like no matter how things got down or went wrong for me, I always whistled as though I didn't have a care in the world. His positive self regard was almost impenetrable. Once I learned more about him, I could see these little, you know, he had a very antagonistic relationship with Jane Stanford, one of the founders of the founding mother of Stanford University where he would go on to become the first president and have a huge influence there. And you know, there's like statues of him and buildings were named after him and stuff like that. But he would blame like he. There's this little dig in the night. He writes about the 1906 earthquake. And Stanford's campus at that time was totally decimated in a very symbolic. The welcome arch crumbled and there's all this stuff and he manages to like blame it on Jane Stanford. There's this little thing where he's like, because she was in a haste to create so much, there weren't the proper steel rods or what. And so like I see him kind of like gaslighting other people. Now that I know more.

[N/A]

It felt a little Trumpian actually.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, yeah. So he doesn't reflect on any failures unless there's like a backdoor brag in it. It's like I didn't do that talk. No, literally there was one where he said, I didn't get that award because I wanted to give it to a kid more needy than me. Or I didn't do this talk because I had too many requests to accommodate. So like, he just. He's a marvel. I think at some point I called him like an acrobat of twirling anything negative about him into something positive. It's almost breathtaking to watch your book.

[N/A]

About David Starr Jordan and so much more, titled why Fish Don't Exist, A Story of Loss, Love and the Hidden Order of Life took almost a decade to finish and it came out in 2020 smack in the middle of COVID That didn't stop it from becoming a national bestseller. It was chosen as a best book by the Smithsonian, npr, the Chicago Tribune, the Washington Post was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Congratulations on all of these accolades and achievements.

[Lulu Miller]

Thank you.

[N/A]

All that being said, you write in the book how you started it from a private, desperate place looking for some moral instruction. What kind?

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, I mean, I was looking for a different way to be in relationship to chaos and to the reality that we don't matter and how to move forward on one of those dark days where everything feels ruined or you've made a mess. Like, how do you surmount those feelings of shame that can make you just want to give up either at what you're doing or the relationship you're in, or life itself? I think I felt so unsure of how to have. How do you. Basically, I think the moral guidance I wanted was how do you stay humble and have sort of an accurate self view of how small we are in the face of everything and still have, like, enough will to push forward? And so that's what I was searching for in David Starr Jordan because he kept doing it. We didn't even mention that an early collection was literally struck by lightning and burnt to the ground. This man's life was plagued by chaos and he just always kept going. And so I kind of wondered how he did it. That's what I was searching for. I mean, I think for me the real learning came when I stopped treating him like a sort of parable. And when I just looked around at like what his story had led to, which ended up being the eugenics movement. He was a huge player in it. Not just a part of it, in the way that many science stories were in the early 20th century, but a huge player in starting a eugenics research institute, in convincing wealthy people to sign onto the idea and powerful people to sign onto the idea. And therefore his sort of love of ordering fish turned into a belief that you could order humans and that there were certain people, particularly those with disabilities or who, you know, didn't have access to books and couldn't read. And he had all these beliefs about what was in the blood. And instead of killing them, his humane idea was that you could sterilize them so that they wouldn't carry on. His sober seeming, his scientifically backed language, and his charm and. And his skill as a communicator got all kinds of people to sign on to these ideas and to these policies, which are still with us in some form in certain ways, but really resulted in the sterilization of tens of thousands of people starting around 1907, 1908, all the way up until the 70s. And I think when I just. At that time when I started reading the book, I just didn't know about the American eugenics movement. I didn't know about the ways in which Nazis were inspired by certain things we did, or we were inspired by early sort of like texts by Germans. And I just didn't know. I just didn't know about the whole history here and how we had like, eugenic state fairs and competitions and sterilizations and.

[N/A]

And there are still laws on the books allowing some of this.

[Lulu Miller]

Absolutely. With different language. Instead of saying unfit, they'll say, unable to give informed consent. You know, there's different words for the same idea. And it was that moment where his me wanting to read him, like a moral text, it just jumped. And then I sort of like, woke up and became a reporter and was like, oh, there are people living today who are sterilized, who are impacted by him. And I think it's kind of like when I started to go report out the living legacy of eugenics and meet people who are affected and talk to them about the ways that they engage in community care and find their own will to live despite such horrific violence. And, like, that's where I actually found something. It was like those people that actually taught me something.

[N/A]

You wrote early in the book, you shared that initially there was so much that you admired about David Star Jordan and his devotion to the hidden and the insignificant, his absurd walrus mustache, his steel backbone, the gritty resolve that prevented him from crumbling in the face of whatever misfortune came his way. And there were many. As the story unfolds, you do share your many, many discoveries of really nefarious and terribly, terribly troubling behavior. Did that impact how you felt about Writing a book that was largely about him.

[Lulu Miller]

I was too far in. I mean, the chuckle comes from, would I have selected him and spent so much time just waltzing? I mean, literally smelling the pocket notebooks in his archives that I eventually visited, that had been like collecting the sweat near his heart. Like, I got intimate with this guy.

[N/A]

And did you feel betrayed when you learned?

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah. Or I just felt, I guess a little, because. Yeah, in particular, that line of his as a young naturalist, he had learned from this sweet old, you know, citizen, scientist, neighbor, friend of his to care for the hidden and insignificant. Like, ignore the showy roses, notice the dandelions and the buttercups. Like, you will learn more about the blueprint of life from that. And he took that to mean, like, you should care for the hidden and insignificant and like, what a great guiding light. How do you go so wrong with that? And then literally create policies that want to get rid of the hidden and insignificant and not listen to them when they opposed him too. We can all have bad ideas, but I also think his sin really started to come when he dug in and didn't listen to all the opposition.

[N/A]

Morality stubbornness was his undoing.

[Lulu Miller]

But yeah, of course I think I felt betrayed and I also just felt angry and let down. I was like, oh, he doesn't have a. He's just another a hole. I have nothing to learn from this guy about how to go on. I mean, his method is be a bulldozer of confidence and self delusion and don't listen to anyone around you and don't care about the violence you enact on people. So that's not really gonna help. Like, I don't want to walk in that path. I think it was more just. It was just feeling like, still lost, like, oh, he had nothing ultimately to offer in that department. But I don't know, I don't feel. No, I'm grateful. I learned so much about our country and other lessons about how to be in the world that, like, if I hadn't followed his story, which turned out, and I like a good twist, so I was actually happy. He ended up, in a weird way, from a narrative point of view, going back to like Radiolab and just pure storytelling, keeping people hooked. The fact that he was dark, like, that's an interesting thing to study because then you can ask how. And he's not a villain, he's not evil. He's a person who had really good influences early on. So what went wrong and like, that to me is a very interesting thing to study.

[N/A]

One of the stories embedded in why Fish Don't Exist is the importance of naming things, both in science and beyond. And I'd like to read one of my favorite paragraphs in your book, which I think will give our listeners a real sense of your poetry, but also of the science. So here goes. There's an idea in philosophy that certain things don't exist until they get a name. Abstract things like justice, nostalgia, infinity, love, or sin. The thinking goes that these concepts do not sit out there on some ethereal plane waiting to be discovered by humans, but instead snap into being when someone invents a name for them. The moment the name is uttered, the concept becomes real in the sense that it can affect reality. We can declare war, truce, bankruptcy, love, innocence, or guilt, and in so doing, change the course of people's lives. The name itself is a thing of great power, then the vessel that drags the idea from the imaginary to the earthly realm before the word, however the thinking goes, the concept is largely inert.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah.

[N/A]

As someone who does a lot of work in branding, which is about positioning reality in a way that you want people to see it and then giving it a name. This was revelatory, truly revelatory, and it goes all the way back to the way in which humans have named religions and have named their gods. And if you think about so many of our wars, most of them are about a God that we've named that may or may not exist, or land that we've declared has borders which don't really exist. So I've been thinking about this now just obsessively, you know, how our naming something somehow gives us this entitlement to own it. Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

And alchemizes it. I think of, like, these experiments we did in chemistry class where you put the one thing in and it catalyzes it, and then suddenly you have something concrete in this clear sol and that name. Like, tons of people have written about this in other ways, but just this idea that, like, the name itself is the catalyst to make an idea concrete enough to bludgeon people. It's not always bad, and it could also really help people, but it becomes concrete enough to have impact at the level of, like, bruise and blood. It's weird, and it is. I think I see it around all the time now.

[N/A]

How did researching the dandelion influence the way you think about hierarchy and certainty and mattering?

[Lulu Miller]

That's a metaphor I love. You know, that's a word, a principle. For me, that's done a lot of good. I. I came across it years Actually before I had worked on the book and there was this, I think it was a Dutch company that operated on this idea called the Dandelion Principle. It was founded by a dad whose son was on the spectrum. And his idea was like his son was having all this trouble getting work. And his idea was that these certain qualities that many workplaces deem hard to work with, I think could be really valuable in another context. And so he kind of, it was sort of like an agency that helped people on the spectrum get work by showing the ways in which like everything that is making them consider considered like a weed is actually a valuable. It's kind of like a crass metaphor, but it's helpful. And you would, you know, in for people designing airports, like they could work with folks who are on spectrum to kind of tell it in a quicker way. Like is this pathway too small? Because they're more sensory, they have like more sensory awareness and like they might be great at this, you know. So this idea that something we consider a weed or a problem may actually be this valuable herb is like the broad Dandelion Principle. And it's all about just how fully you're considering this organism and realizing that value is always defined from the outside and that like any organism, be it human or plant, has intrinsic value. And it's just thinking about how I make the point in the book that that's something the eugenicists absolutely failed to consider, among many other things like morality. But also, even if you want to create a supposedly strong, enduring race, you're going to want to include diversity in there. So they forgot about that scientific princip.

[N/A]

If they want to do it, mix things.

[Lulu Miller]

But yeah, with the Dandelion Principle, I think it just that idea I talked about in relation to these two women, Anna and Mary, one of whom had they both been separated out by the state and put in an institution as a result of the eugenics policies. And one of them had been sterilized. Anna had been sterilized. And you know, she had been seen as this weed, something to be plucked from the race. I mean, David Starr Jordan literally wrote a book on eugenics called the Human Harvest. And he thought about it like weeding, like planting, you know, and she talked about her scar like she has this state sanctioned stamp of the fact that she has. It was believed to have no value and to have to look at that every day. And that was the idea. And then of course, like meeting her and meeting her within her community where she's bringing the receptionist at her apartment building all these drawings and she's hooking up her friend with this guy who she didn't want to date because she didn't feel like dating, but she like, you know, and she's, she's bringing, not that you have to bring light or be cheery to have value in existence, but in this particular instance, she's bringing so much value, she's strengthening the thread of society, which was exactly what the eugenicists believe she wouldn't be able to do. And it's just because they failed to consider her value. And it's like just this baseline 4 year old could get it. Philosophical principle. The value is in the eye of the beholder. And so to me, the dandelion principle just kind of really brings that together. That obviously in some yards are considered weeds, but you use dandelions for herbs and certain teas and they can help with all kinds of eyesight and blood flow and things like that. So to me, it's a nice metaphor. And then dandelions are everywhere and I just sort of feel affection and also like a reminder to keep considering value because why do it too? I'm judging people who use the word cerulean left and right. And I should check myself.

[N/A]

Lulu, there's probably another 24 hours of questions that I could ask you about your book and I'd still love to be able to do that, but I don't think it would be fair to do that to you here. And there's a bunch more that I want to talk to you about. But we haven't covered one really important topic in the book that you hinted at earlier in our conversation and the realization that led to the book's title. And then also sort of the ultimate irony to David Starr Jordan's life. And the question is, tell us why you titled the book why Fish Don't Exist. Because it's true. It's actually true.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah. So basically, if you think about this is just a discovery made by ichthyologists, fancy word for fish scientists who are studying the biology of fish and the evolution of fish and how they're all related and where we fit in that tree of life. And the better and better scientists got at looking at that, analyzing DNA and all kinds of other things, they have come to realize that fish as a scientific category is not real. It's like a gerrymandered category is the best way, I think, to think about it. And specifically, if you were to take something like a salmon and a lungfish, which is one of those kind of big lobey fish, And a cow. And you look at them, you know, you would think the lobefish and the fish were closely related, but the truth is the lobefish and the cow are much more closely related. And so if you want to.

[N/A]

Because of their lungs. Is that right?

[Lulu Miller]

Because of their lungs and because of what's going on on the inside and where they are actually on the tree of life, like when they came, when they split off. Cows and lungfish are far more closely related. And so if you want to keep all fishy things together in the ocean, like scaly, swimmy, fishy looking things, you can totally do that. And you can call them fish, but you also need to include cows and birds and you and me and, you know, every vertebrate. So if you really want to keep using the word fish accurately, it would be a synonym for vertebrate. But if you care about making scientifically meaningful categories, fish just is not one in the way that something like reptiles or mammals really is. So the more scientifically accurate and useful thing to do is to say that fish don't exist. It is not a meaningful category. There's much more nuance there in the ocean. And for me, when you accept that, and it literally took me years of reading, interviewing, and drawing diagrams to get it, I think I get it now, but. But once you accept that, it's kind of this invitation, or maybe like a stop sign, a fish shaped stop sign, to think twice about every other category out there that you have been told is definitely real. And in the eugenics movement, that would be like crude terms like unfit. You are unfit to carry on. You are unfit, declared with this scientific sobriety, but anything. And so for me, it's just this reminder that, like, the categories we make, nature has no hard lines. We're constantly drawing categories over them, whether they be colors or groups of people or things in the water. And it's just this reminder to investigate. Like, is this category serving me? Is it serving the people trapped within it? Are the people within the category asking that you look closer? Or maybe it's about building shapes, I don't know. Like, it's just this big reminder. Like, if something as basic and simple and not complex seeming as fish isn't meaningful or real, what else do I have wrong?

[N/A]

As I was reading your book and trying to wrap my mind around this, I was telling people about it, and I was using your example about people on a mountaintop and plaid and so forth. But I also realized the hubris that went into deciding that everything in an ocean is considered some type of fish. Well, then wouldn't it mean that everything. Not in the ocean.

[Lulu Miller]

I know.

[N/A]

That we could be one giant species. Like, that's what it means. That's what this is.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah. And that example is mish. That like anything on a mountain, a mountain man, a snake, an eagle, and a goat. Those are all mish, you know, like.

[N/A]

Right, right. They're mish because they're wearing. Or they're plish and long plaid.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, right, right, right. And so. Yeah. And I mean, I get it. And, like, people thought whales were fish for a. And didn't know what sharks looked like. Really. Like, I get it. We didn't invent the goggle until just a few decades back. Like, we didn't see that world as much. I get it. Why we would lump it together in this kind of unknown, but. Yeah, that's like, it's as absurd as saying that. Yeah. The goggle fact, by the way, I learned in our Radio Lab Shark series, which we just did a week. We didn't do a shark week because that would be infringing on branding. So it was a Radiolab week of shark. And our reporter Rachel was the one who brought that to our attention. Like, wow, we haven't had goggles even for, like, a century.

[N/A]

And that was so pivotal to some of your realizations at the end of Fish don't Exist. Why Fish don't Exist.

[Lulu Miller]

It's true. The snorkel goggles, really? Yeah.

[N/A]

You returned to Radiolab as one of the co hosts in 2020. So you were coming out with a book and rejoining your family at Radiolab at the same time. What was it like to return to the show? Was it a hard decision to make?

[Lulu Miller]

It was not a hard decision to make. I got the call that Robert and Dad were both kind of. Robert had stepped aside, and dad was getting ready to. And they were thinking about new co hosts and would I want to. And I was sitting in a parked car in Lincoln Park. It was like a. Yeah, it was like a beacon. It was like, come home. And I had been away at that point for basically a decade, and I think I had, along the way, grown that backbone or whatever, you know, that sense of self. I had grown enough of a compass that I felt. I mean, I wanted to do journalism, and I had been doing journalism. I had sort of already returned, but I think it was like, yeah, it was a dream. It was the show that got me into the medium. It was the show that told me I could still ask these kinds of questions as an adult. And Hunt for these kinds of stories where, like, our beliefs about the world are broken, which feels very sacred and urgent to me. And it's like a room full of nerds, and it's like, the nicest team in the business. It was a dream. Yeah. Really.

[N/A]

I came upon a conversation that you wrote about or. And I don't know exactly where it came from. I can look in my notes if it's something that you think is important and it's you talking in first person. I left Radiolab kind of when that feeling came to a head where I was just like, I'm not cut out for this. I'm not courageous enough. I'm not exactly X, Y, and Z enough. I'm too worried. I talked about it once with Jad from Radiolab, too, and I was thinking about coming back to radio or not. And I was like, if I have that voice, maybe I'm not meant to do this. And he said, no, that voice is what makes you good at it. That voice is the moral compass. I'd be concerned if you didn't have that voice. So it's useful to just realize that this is part of the job. It is just part of the job. And these questions of how to balance all these things and realizing you can bring in editors and colleagues, you don't have to go through it alone. Yeah. It is what makes it better. And I wasn't sure if that was the conversation you were referring to earlier in our conversation today or if that was something separate that you had with Jad as you were considering coming back to the show.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, it was a. It was a little bit. It was a couple years before. It was when I was leaving kind of this fiction world and actually deciding to go to NPR and work on what became Invisibilia. And it was. That was the moment where I was like, I have left journalism, but I'm very intrigued about going back in, but I don't think I should. And I remember talking to him. I was living in Virginia at the time, and really not in a confident place at all. Very unsure of the path ahead for anything in my life, and just consumed by worry. Like, consumed. And. Yeah, and it was very liberating. He said exactly that. Like, just if that worry wasn't there, I'd be worried. You know, that worry is the sound of your compass. That's great. And it felt like I had thought that worry cast me as exactly the wrong person for the job. And he was there spinning it to say it was right. And I still believe that. And I listen to it when I feel it coming up. And. And I think the other big thing is realizing you don't have to keep those worries private, like they're not some symptom that you're doing it wrong. Those are exactly the things to, like, surface immediately and bat around with a big team and the joy of collaboration. Also, after writing a book, which was lonely, and I feel like I am in my collaboration era, I love it so much. That really helped me turn a course on, like, what I think my calling is, what I think I'm supposed to be doing on Earth. And now I really, I mean, I just love it. I love. I feel so lucky. I mean, this is like, such an honor to talk to you, but, God, do I love being on the other side more.

[N/A]

It's so fun. I feel the same way. The same way. I only have a couple more questions for you. In my research and prep for today's show, I discovered you said something when why Fish Don't Exist. With first launched when it was first published, you stated this. I have just written my first and likely only book called why Fish Don't Exist. You proved that inaccurate when you published your second book, a children's book titled Truckee Rhodes, last year. What was it like to go from writing about such heady philosophical topics to creating a children's book?

[Lulu Miller]

It was so fun. It was great. It was. I mean, watching it come alive with the artist we skip, who is just amazing, and then getting to take it out, you know, and also, like, describing it was so much easier. We spent weeks trying to figure out how to describe why Fish Don't Exist. Never really got there. And then, you know, Truckee Rhodes is like, well, it's about trucks and also roads, you know, but it was so fun. And getting to know the readings that I've done with kids is just such a delight. And there's an invitation at the end for kids to make up their own trucks. And hearing what they invent is so great. And like, it just writing it, it just kind of spilled out. And it was inspired by this character my son made up because he loved trucks. And so it just kind of spilled out. I originally wrote it just for him. So the writing was, like, easy. It was done. I polished it a little. And then I just got to have this incredible artist bring it to life. And so that it just was smooth, easy, fun, great. A very different journey.

[N/A]

One of the things I thought was so fascinating about both of your books, there is a thread between them. They both include the phenomena of naming deeply embedded in the book DNA.

[Lulu Miller]

Yes.

[N/A]

Like, they both are about creating language.

[Lulu Miller]

For objects 100% and playing with it and seeing where. Yeah. And they're kind of like busting up categories. Cause it's just a very simple. The book is basically like naming different kinds of trucks, which was the kind of book my son just could not get enough of. Excavator, dig, whatever. But then playing with that a little and making up, you know, a tow truck versus a tow truck. And the second one is.

[N/A]

Yeah, but it's like a truck taxonomy.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah. And actually I am. I'm supposed to hear back this week, but there might be a third book which is. It's another children's book which is also about naming and categories. And this one is called the Book of Balls. And it's about different kinds. Goosebumps, different kind of balls, but it's the same. It was watching my second son grow up, and he was a little bit slower to language. And so he like, ball was one of the only words he had for years. And we were like, a little worried, but then we started to just see how many things were balls. So it's like all the balls at the gym, but also buoys and also pearls and also our doorknobs and designed things and street light globes, but also, oh, my gosh, the Earth is a ball and the sun is a ball, and why does the universe crave a ball? And there's so many spheres. And so it's like it's playing with that. It's funny. As much as I'm wary of categories that didn't start as a book, that just started as a list in my notes app of, like, everything he was calling a ball for years and just noticing what words show us, what they blind us to. And I. I love that, that intersection between language and nature. I think it's infinitely interesting.

[N/A]

You've recently launched another podcast while you're doing Radiolab. You're now also. You've created it, you're hosting it. It's called Terrestrials. What motivated this new direction?

[Lulu Miller]

So Terrestrials is our. It's our family friendly show all about the strangeness right here on Earth. It's basically a nature show that is kid friendly. It came out of this really cramped moment where it was Covid and I has newly moved to Chicago, a city I didn't know that was cold. And I had two kids and our apartment. It was just. Everything felt cramped and everything felt dark. And I had, like, a lot of the stories I had reported over the years at Invisibilia and early days of Radiolab and even when I was first back, I'm interested in why things break down. I'm interested in hard stuff. Like a lot of them dealt with death or disability or violence or eugenics. I'm drawn to that. I want to understand those stories. But I think, think I was really missing nature. I was missing Virginia. Like I missed a lover, honestly, like I was really heartsick and feeling stuck. I needed a shaft of light. Like I needed somewhere where I could think about nature, where I could get into nature in my mind. And we had, during COVID there were all these requests at Radiolab, there were all these requests coming in for listeners to create a kid friendly feed. Because sometimes, like, sometimes Radiolab is like, behold the wonder of fireflies. And sometimes it's like, here's this horrific murder. Like it there, you know, you just, it takes. So parents understandably wanted just kid friendly stuff to listen to with their kids. And so we had created that feed and we saw there was interest, there was hunger. And so I think I basically, I made an episode without telling anyone because I always like to communicate in content. I don't like to communicate in ideas. I don't like to tell an idea before I've done it. So I like made this pilot episode that was a real life story of an octopus that escaped from a tank and slid down a drainpipe and returned to the ocean. And it's true, and it really happened and the way it did it. And the wonderful writer Sy Montgomery had written a children's book about it and she told me the story. But along the way you get to learn like how it did that and the fact that maybe not just wings can be convergently evolved, but intelligence itself might be. And maybe increasingly scientists think that octopuses have a real kind of intelligence. And yeah, it just came out of this desire to like alongside the harder, more complex stories to also have. Like, when I feel stuck, I go to nature, I really do, and it opens me up and I was just feeling stuck. Like I was watching where the world was going politically, I was watching climate change and Covid and I, it's like I needed, I did, I was like, I don't know about human stories. I need to see how nature is doing things. I need to see places where nature is defying our expectations to it. And it was kind of, in all honesty, like at the very end of why Fish Don't Exist, I say this whole tirade about if you approach the world with more doubt you'll see a more wild and beautiful world where everything's reverberating with possibility, which, like, fine, pretty words, but show me that world. And so this podcast is, episode by episode, trying to show a world where every episode breaks our expectations of how creatures are supposed to work. And, like, we have stuff on symbiosis. We have stuff. Like, we have all kinds of different stuff. But then the twist was making it for kids. Having my own kids, I think showed me. I had never babysat. I just wasn't a kid person until I had them. And I was like, oh, their brains. Like, they have a high standard. I think I had looked down on children's entertainers. And I still struggle to be like, I'm a children's entertainer. My wife's like, how am I gonna still be attracted to you now that you're a clown? But they have a high bar. You have to, like, actually be. You have to have a good plot, and you gotta make them laugh. And they have really open minds. That's my favorite part. Like, they don't. And I start every episode with a minute before I tell you what the thing is. Cause I don't want you to walk in with any expectations. And I think of that minute as, like, unscrewing the cap on the word. Maybe the episode's about an octopus, but maybe it's about a tree stump. But I don't want you to know that. That until you've, like, thought a little about what it's like to be that creature. Anyway, it came out of that. And then the twist of making it for kids, brains. In many ways, I found just like my dream creative soulmate, which is Alan Gaffinski, who does all the songs and the music. And we do. You know, he'll write an original song or two for every episode. I sing on some of them. And, like, what that has opened up, like, he is such a creative genius. And he's so generous. Generous. It's not patronizing kid music. Like, it's kind of decent. And it's more than decent. It's really good.

[N/A]

It's really good.

[Lulu Miller]

And I can say that. Cause he writes, that's not me, that's him. And he wears his heart on his sleeve. But he's also really silly. And he just. He hadn't been in radio, so for him, it's really new. And it's like this way to play. He'd been a social worker. He'd been doing really different kinds of work. Fun fact about him, he used to hold the Guinness World record for the longest hug. He's just like, he's a compassionate dude and a genius and, like, pushing down that fourth wall and playing in a space that's musical. And increasingly, I'm like, alan, can I sing on this one, too? Like, anyway, there's just something that's been very incredibly vitalizing about playing in that space. So, yeah, so that's going, too.

[N/A]

Lulu, my last question isn't really a question from me.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay.

[N/A]

It is a question nonetheless. Earlier in the show, we talked about how you shared your fears about returning to radio with Jad Abumrad and how he helped you understand your strengths. And I've interviewed Jad for this podcast twice, and I've gotten to know him a little bit through mutual friends over the last years. So I reached out to him, and I wanted to ask him what he felt might be a good question for you, given how well you know each other. And so he responded as follows with two questions. Okay, what would I ask her? I don't really know how to phrase this as a question, but Lulu, she's two things at once. She's one of the most joyful people you will ever meet. I think if you were to interview anyone who's worked with her, they would say that she's also somebody who has dipped into periods of real darkness. She's written about this and why fish don't exist, that she had periods in her life where she really struggled. I've always felt like her creative engine, and her approach to the stories that she tells somehow lives at the fault line between those two states. My questions are this. Are there stories or approaches that she embarks on now that she wouldn't have 10 years ago? And how has being a host and also being a parent played into that evolution?

[Lulu Miller]

She's so freaking smart.

[N/A]

I know.

[Lulu Miller]

It's so lovely to be seen. A lot of the time, I'm making the work to survive. I mean, like terrestrials itself. I mean, hopefully the kids don't have to feel this, but that it's driven from needing to see a world that is less grim than the one that keeps showing itself. It's like needing to see that there are ways to live harmoniously and ways to mend the world. It's like, if I don't find those, I won't be okay. So he's right about that. I mean, I do think, like, just the uncool of it all, making a kid's show, singing on the radio, all that is something I wouldn't have done 10 years ago. Because I would have cared more about perception. And now I just care about how good it feels to do it and to find out those stories and make it with a team. Like, I care. I think I care more about the process than I ever have. And I guess the other, I mean, so the other, it was like, you know, I'm even catching myself. I said, like, I don't want the kids to feel that burden in the show or whatever. But, but in a way, like, being a parent has made me see kids as full people. And when did my depression set in? Around seven. Like, actually, I do want this to be extending a hand in a subtle, like, not laborious, labored way, but in a subtle way that says just as the world might feel like it's closing in with no magic or hope, like there is some and it's, and it's right here on Earth if you look close, like it's, there are other ways to be. And they worked for millions of years and maybe we can draw design inspiration there. Being a parent also has made me think more about the future. And I think one of the things I'm reporting on now for an adult book I'm working on is trying to look at different ways that we can mend the world through community care, maybe through some mutual aid, just different ways that that's done in human societies and plants and animals. And I think that topic would have felt way too, too daunting to take on 10 years ago, and now it feels like urgent and exciting.

[N/A]

Lulu Miller, thank you so much for making so much work that matters. And thank you for joining me today on Design Matters.

[Lulu Miller]

Thank you so, so much. Thanks for having me.

[N/A]

You can listen to lots more about and from Lulu on the podcast Radiolab and Terrestrials. You can read more about about her and about the world in her truly remarkable book, why Fish Don't Exist. This is the 20th year we've been podcasting Design Matters and I'd like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference. We can make a difference, or we can do both. I'm Debbie Melman and I look forward to talking with you again soon.

[Debbie Millman]

Design Matters is produced by the TED Audio Collective by Curtis Fox Productions. The interviews are usually recorded at the Masters in Branding program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest running branding program in the world. The editor in chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Weiland.

[N/A]

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[Lulu Miller]

Talk about refreshing.

[N/A]

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[Lulu Miller]

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[James]

This is a great deal.

[Lulu Miller]

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[N/A]

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