Design Matters with Debbie Millman: Episode Summary Featuring Tiffany Shlain & Ken Goldberg

Release Date: January 20, 2025
Podcast: Design Matters with Debbie Millman

Introduction to Guests

In this episode of Design Matters, host Debbie Millman welcomes Tiffany Shlain and Ken Goldberg, a dynamic duo renowned for their artistic collaborations and contributions to both the art and robotics fields. Their latest project, Ancient Wisdom for a Future Ecology, Trees, Time, and Technology, is showcased at the Skirball Cultural Center in Los Angeles.

Personal Backgrounds and Early Inspirations

Tiffany Shlain is an accomplished artist, documentary filmmaker, and founder of the Webby Awards. She has authored several influential books, including 246: Giving Up Screens One Day a Week to Get More Time, Creativity, and Connection.

Ken Goldberg serves as the William S. Floyd Chair of Engineering and Distinguished Professor of Robotics at UC Berkeley. He is also the President of the Robot Learning Foundation and an artist with work exhibited at prestigious venues like the Whitney Biennial and the Venice Biennial.

Key Moments:

• Meeting and Partnership: Ken recounts their first meeting in 1997, an "aha moment" orchestrated by Ken's father during a lecture by Leonard Schlane, sparking an instant connection. (33:06)

  Ken Goldberg: "We did fall in love right at first sight. Very, very shtetlike."

• Family Legacy: Ken shares insights into his family's rich history of innovation and patents, highlighting his grandfather Manus Glickman's contributions to electrical engineering. (04:52)

  Ken Goldberg: "I love salvage things. I love vintage salvage and, like, reinterpreting."

Ken Goldberg's Work in Robotics

Ken delves into his groundbreaking work in robotics, particularly focusing on his patented Kinematically Yielding Gripper (KYG), which allows robots to manipulate objects without relying on sensors. This innovation stems from his pursuit to solve the fundamental challenge of object orientation in robotics.

Notable Insights:

• Aha Moment in Research: Ken describes the profound moment when his mathematical equations unexpectedly canceled out, leading to the realization that a step function was the key to his robotic gripper's success. (11:03)

  Ken Goldberg: "It became that this integral equaled zero... it felt like some bolt out of something larger than myself."

• Cloud Robotics: Ken explains the concept of cloud robotics, where robots leverage internet-based processing power to perform complex tasks, enhancing their capabilities without the constraints of onboard computing. (16:17)

  Ken Goldberg: "The robot can't carry that much weight and it can't carry that much battery power... the heavy duty processing, the AI basically goes on [in the cloud]."

Tiffany Shlain's Artistic Endeavors

Tiffany shares her journey in the art world, emphasizing her exploration of themes like time, technology, culture, and ecology through innovative mediums such as tree ring sculptures and interactive installations.

Key Projects:

• Human Nature (2022): A solo art show featuring feminist history tree rings and explorations of perspective and technology.

• Telegarden: An early internet-based art project connecting a garden to the web, allowing global participation in tending plants. (14:58)

  Tiffany Schlane: "Telegarden... a way of exploring the intersection of technology and nature."

Collaborative Art Installation: Ancient Wisdom for a Future Ecology

Their collaborative exhibit intertwines art and science, utilizing salvaged wood to create tree ring sculptures that address various narratives, including the history of knowledge, California's ecological changes, and Jewish heritage.

Exhibit Highlights:

• Tree Ring Sculptures: Each ring represents a year, reflecting environmental conditions and historical events. (36:44)

  Tiffany Schlane: "Dendrochronology... how trees can help us visualize time."

• Interactive Elements: Visitors can create personalized tributes to local trees, blending human experience with ecological data. (44:46)

• Mathematical Expressions: A standout piece combines mathematical equations with natural wood textures, symbolizing the fusion of logic and nature. (55:12)

  Ken Goldberg: "We arranged the points in a golden spiral and Fibonacci sequence, which solved our visual traffic jam."

Discussion on AI and Creativity

The conversation shifts to the capabilities and limitations of artificial intelligence, particularly in creative domains. Tiffany expresses skepticism about AI's ability to generate genuine creativity, while Ken acknowledges recent advancements that challenge this stance.

Key Points:

• AI Creativity: Tiffany shares her skepticism, noting that AI-generated writing often feels "soulless" despite its technical proficiency. (21:58)

  Tiffany Schlane: "There's a soullessness to it that doesn't come through like something that's constructed in AI."

• Ken's Optimism: Ken remains hopeful about AI's role in augmenting human creativity, predicting significant breakthroughs in collaborative AI-human projects. (19:22)

  Ken Goldberg: "I think we're ready for a real breakthrough where something very significant is done with AI."

• Moravec's Paradox: Ken explains the paradox where tasks easy for humans become challenging for robots, and vice versa, highlighting the nuanced challenges in robotics. (18:05)

  Ken Goldberg: "Why is that there's this big disconnect where what’s easy for robots is hard for humans and what’s easy for humans is hard for robots."

Ethical Considerations in AI and Robotics

Tiffany and Ken explore the ethical dimensions of AI and robotics, discussing prevalent fears and the actual concerns within the scientific community.

Critical Issues:

• Public Perception vs. Reality: They address the exaggerated fears of robots "running amok," contrasting them with the realistic challenges faced by researchers. (27:10)

  Ken Goldberg: "Robots are just not that sophisticated... the idea that they're going to take over is a very deeply rooted fear."

• Shade Inequity in Urban Landscapes: Through their art, they highlight environmental disparities, such as unequal tree distribution in Los Angeles, using AI to visualize and address these issues. (58:38)

Future Outlook and Optimism

Both guests express a cautiously optimistic view of the future, balancing the rapid advancements in technology with the potential for positive change.

Reflections:

• Optimism for Technological Progress: Tiffany and Ken believe in the potential of technology to create new possibilities and improve human lives, emphasizing the importance of thoughtful integration. (63:31)

  Debbie Millman: "I really feel very, very excited and hopeful about where we are."

• Human-AI Collaboration: They advocate for viewing AI as a tool that complements human creativity rather than a replacement, fostering a symbiotic relationship. (23:45)

  Debbie Millman: "Look at it as a new instrument... the idea is not to run away from it but to use it in the right way."

Closing Thoughts

Tiffany Shlain and Ken Goldberg conclude the episode by reiterating their commitment to creating meaningful work that bridges art and science, emphasizing the importance of collaboration and continuous innovation.

Debbie Millman: "Thank you, Tiffany and Ken, for making so much work that matters."

Ken Goldberg: "Thank you, Debbie. Always so much."

Tiffany Schlane: "Thank you, Tiffany and Ken's interactive multi-sensory installation is on display at the Skirball Cultural Center in Los Angeles. You can also see more of their work at letitripple.org."

Conclusion

This episode of Design Matters offers a deep dive into the intersection of art, science, and technology through the insightful conversations with Tiffany Shlain and Ken Goldberg. Their collaborative work exemplifies how creative partnerships can address complex societal and ecological issues, while their discussions on AI highlight both the potential and the challenges of integrating advanced technologies into our lives.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Ken Goldberg (04:52): "Is the idea of robots taking over a deeply rooted fear that goes back to the ancient Greeks."

• Tiffany Schlane (14:58): "Telegarden was a way of exploring the intersection of technology and nature."

• Ken Goldberg (18:05): "Moravec's paradox is why there's a big disconnect between what’s easy for robots and humans."

• Debbie Millman (19:22): "I'm excited about the possibilities AI can open up when used thoughtfully."

• Tiffany Schlane (21:58): "AI-generated writing feels soulless compared to human creation."

• Ken Goldberg (27:10): "The fear of robots taking over is a distraction from real ethical concerns in AI and robotics."

• Debbie Millman (63:31): "I feel very optimistic and excited about the potential for positive change through technology."

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the conversation between Tiffany Shlain, Ken Goldberg, and Debbie Millman, highlighting their personal journeys, collaborative projects, and thoughtful discourse on the future of AI and robotics.