BONUS: What Does It Mean to Believe Survivors? In Conversation with Mary DeMuth and Colleen Ramser

Summary

Devil and the Deep Blue Sea: BONUS Episode Summary
Episode: What Does It Mean to Believe Survivors? In Conversation with Mary DeMuth and Colleen Ramser
Release Date: July 14, 2025

In this bonus episode of Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, hosted by Mike Kosper and Rebecca Sebastian from Christianity Today, the conversation pivots to address critical feedback and delve deeper into the nuanced topics of abuse, trauma, memory, and the importance of believing survivors. Featuring insights from survivor Mary DeMuth and trauma therapist Colleen Ramser, the episode offers a heartfelt exploration of these sensitive subjects, providing listeners with both personal narratives and professional perspectives.

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1. Introduction and Context

[00:57]
Mike Kosper opens the episode by acknowledging the sensitive nature of previous discussions in the series, particularly those surrounding the Satanic Panic of the 1980s and 90s. He references specific cases like the McMartin preschool, satanic ritual abuse, and the controversial book Michelle Remembers, co-authored by Michelle Smith and Lawrence Pazder, which significantly influenced the Satanic Panic movement.

[01:44]
Rebecca Sebastian addresses listener feedback expressing concerns that the podcast may have inadvertently downplayed the reality and complexity of abuse while criticizing flawed investigative practices. She emphasizes the show's intent to distinguish between acknowledging the prevalence of abuse and critiquing how allegations are handled.

2. Clarifying Intentions: Acknowledging Abuse While Critiquing Investigations

[01:59]
Mike Kosper clarifies that the podcast aims to highlight systemic and personal abuse without questioning its occurrence. He emphasizes support for victims and survivors, stressing that the focus is on how abuse allegations are processed, not on the validity of the abuse itself. He cites discussions on abuse within evangelical churches, particularly the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), to illustrate how mythologizing abuse can obscure real predators.

[02:44]
Rebecca Sebastian introduces the guests, Mary DeMuth, a survivor, and Colleen Ramser, a trauma therapist, to provide their personal, professional, and spiritual insights on abuse and trauma, emphasizing the podcast's commitment to supporting healing.

3. Survivor vs. Victim: Understanding Terminology

[05:58]
Rebecca Sebastian initiates a discussion on the preferred terminology between "survivor" and "victim." She seeks the guests' perspectives on these terms and what aspects the podcast may have overlooked regarding the complexity of abuse and memory.

[07:44]
Mary DeMuth shares her personal journey, highlighting the multifaceted nature of healing from traumatic sexual abuse. She emphasizes that recovery is a non-linear process filled with moments of despair and hope.

[09:05]
Colleen Ramser discusses her approach as a therapist, explaining that she allows clients to define their own identities, whether as victims or survivors. She elaborates on the progression from victimhood to thriving, underscoring the biblical significance of acknowledging one's position in the healing journey.

Notable Quote:
"Survivor to me seems more like this middle section of healing where someone is beginning to kind of see a little more of the light at the end of the tunnel." — Colleen Ramser [04:24]

4. The Reliability of Memory in Trauma Cases

[09:38]
The conversation shifts to the role of memory in trauma. Rebecca Sebastian introduces the topic by referencing Mary DeMuth's experience of reactivating a traumatic memory through visiting her former elementary school.

[10:26]
Mary recounts her experience of being sexually abused at age five and the reactivation of those memories decades later when revisiting the abuse site. She describes the physical manifestations of trauma, such as vomiting, which indicate that the distressing memory was always present in her body.

[12:31]
Rebecca connects this to the concept introduced in "The Body Keeps the Score," highlighting how physical and visceral responses can surface buried memories, emphasizing that these are not mere "recovered memories" but manifestations of long-held trauma.

[12:56]
Colleen Ramser delves into the nuances of memory recovery, discussing how trauma can lead to dissociation and fragmented memories. She highlights the non-linear nature of trauma narratives, where memories emerge in pieces rather than a cohesive story, underscoring the complexity of therapeutic approaches to trauma.

Notable Quote:
"There's no denying that abuse happens. Our concern was to highlight the fact that when we embrace a kind of mythology of abuse which is not rooted in the facts, we distract ourselves from real predators who are in our midst." — Mike Kosper [02:44]

5. The Satanic Panic Revisited

[15:40]
Mike Kosper shares a personal anecdote about his own experience with disassociation during a deep conversation about complex trauma, underscoring the genuine nature of trauma experiences despite past misrepresentations during the Satanic Panic era.

[19:17]
Rebecca Sebastian raises the question of whether trauma can be altered or influenced by external factors, referencing the Michelle Smith case, and explores the possibility that trauma might be reshaped without negating the victim's experience.

[20:02]
Mike poses a question to Colleen regarding the ethical evolution of therapeutic practices, particularly concerning hypnotherapy and guided meditation, which were contentious during the Satanic Panic.

[20:31]
Colleen responds by affirming that hypnosis remains a legitimate therapeutic tool when used ethically. She emphasizes the importance of therapist integrity and the potential for both healing and harm, depending on the practitioner's approach.

Notable Quote:
"I can't imagine those kids or that woman, even the therapist, they got married. And I'm like, that's so not okay." — Colleen Ramser [22:04]

6. Believing Survivors in the Church

[23:15]
Rebecca shifts the focus to the church's role in responding to abuse allegations, asking Mary and Colleen about the cultural shift towards "believing survivors" and how this aligns with Christian responses.

[24:XX]
Mary DeMuth advocates for the default position of believing survivors, noting that the vast majority are telling the truth. She shares a poignant story of a man who genuinely connected with her pain, illustrating the healing power of being believed.

Notable Quote:
"I'm just going to go first for the sake of letting other people have this, be normalized." — Mary DeMuth [31:08]

[25:26]
Colleen Ramser provides statistics on false allegations, emphasizing their rarity, and discusses the ongoing mission to educate pastors and church leaders to adopt a posture of belief and support for survivors. She underscores the importance of mandatory reporting and the detrimental effects of disbelief on victims.

Notable Quote:
"I think that majority of the cases that I get, some of the most damaging pieces for survivors...is not being believed." — Colleen Ramser [27:46]

7. Institutional Abuse and the True Nature of Evil

[28:16]
Mike Kosper delves into the distinction between genuine abuse and the exaggerated mythologies of the Satanic Panic. He criticizes how investigators during the panic sought evidence to fit preconceived theories, diverting attention from real instances of institutional abuse, particularly within the SBC.

[30:21]
Colleen echoes the importance of recognizing real abuse over fabricated narratives. She reiterates that acknowledging actual victims and preventing the spread of unfounded allegations are crucial for justice and healing.

[31:08]
Mary shares her emotional response to the podcast's episode, expressing both sorrow and hope. She emphasizes the need for institutional accountability, highlighting that protecting institutions over victims perpetuates evil within church hierarchies.

Notable Quote:
"There's such an image of older generations of women...being liberated by having their stories spoken out loud." — Mary DeMuth [39:18]

8. Pathways to Healing and Hope

[35:05]
Colleen discusses advancements in trauma therapy, such as EMDR and internal family systems, which integrate psychological techniques with spiritual healing. She expresses optimism about Christians embracing these methods to move beyond trauma.

[36:56]
Mary highlights the role of theology in healing, advocating for an eschatological mindset that looks beyond earthly suffering. She shares experiences of witnessing church leaders authentically addressing and empathizing with survivors, fostering a safe environment for healing.

[39:43]
Rebecca and Mike conclude the conversation by acknowledging the progress made and the work still required to create safe spaces within the church and society for survivors to heal and be believed.

Notable Quote:
"The truth is always bad enough." — Rebecca Sebastian [34:52]

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Conclusion

This bonus episode of Devil and the Deep Blue Sea offers a profound exploration of the delicate balance between acknowledging the prevalence of abuse and critiquing flawed investigative practices that emerged during the Satanic Panic. Through the heartfelt narratives of Mary DeMuth and the professional insights of Colleen Ramser, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the complexities surrounding trauma, memory, and the critical importance of believing and supporting survivors. The conversation underscores the necessity for churches and institutions to create safe, empathetic environments that prioritize the healing and justice of abuse victims over protecting institutional reputations.

Notable Final Quote:
"I have walked through this very, very long healing journey, and you're gonna be okay, and I'm gonna walk alongside you." — Mary DeMuth [09:05]

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, personal stories, and professional insights, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

Transcript

[Mike Kosper]

This episode is brought to you in.

[Mary DeMuth]

Part by the Apologetics Guy show, the.

[Mike Kosper]

Podcast that helps you find clear answers to tough questions about Christianity. Learn to explain your faith with courage and compassion. Join Moody Bible Institute Professor Dr. Michele Del Rosario@ apologeticsguy.com.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

This is CT Media. A note to listeners, this story contains sensitive content, including sexual abuse, child murder, and dark spiritual themes, and may not be suitable for all listeners.

[Mike Kosper]

Hey, everyone. Before we jump into this bonus episode and introduce our guests, we wanted to offer some context. I'm Mike Kosper.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

And I'm Rebecca Sebastian.

[Mike Kosper]

Devil in the Deep Blue Sea told a big story about the Satanic panic of the 1980s and 90s. And in some episodes, particularly episodes two through four, we dealt with sensitive topics. Stories like the McMartin preschool case, satanic ritual abuse, and the story of Michelle Smith and Lawrence Pazder, who co authored the book Michelle Remembers. That book is largely credited with triggering the Satanic Panic when it came out in 1980. In it, Pazdre claimed to have helped Michelle recover childhood memories of satanic ritual abuse through controversial and largely discredited therapy techniques.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

Yes. And we received feedback from listeners, some of whom felt that in our effort to spotlight bad investigative work and discredited claims of sexual ritual abuse, that we may have unintentionally downplayed the reality of abuse and the complexity of memory.

[Mike Kosper]

Right. And that was never our intention. We also wanted to be clear that we know the evil of abuse, systemic and personal, happens, and we want to support the healing of every victim and survivor. What we are trying to do is call out how abuse allegations and investigations are handled and mishandled, not question whether or not abuse happens. A case in point for this is that we spent a lot of time on the show talking about the epidemic of sexual abuse inside evangelical churches, particularly inside the sbc. We know all too well that abuse happens. Our concern was to highlight the fact that when we embrace a kind of mythology of abuse which is not rooted in the facts, we distract ourselves from real predators who are in our midst.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

Exactly. So please know this feedback was heard. We appreciate it, and it deserves a response. So today we're having a conversation with Mary DeMuth, a Survivor and authority, and Colleen Ramser, a trauma therapist. We really just want to give them the mic and hear their personal, professional, and spiritual perspectives on abuse and trauma. And we also talk about the hope of healing, which, thank God, is possible.

[Mike Kosper]

All right, let's get into it.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

Colleen and Mary, thank you so much for joining Mike and I today. This is a really important topic to us, to our listeners, and most certainly to both of you. So pray, perhaps we could just start with why this is important to each of you and then go right into how you've seen trauma and memory in your own personal experience and stories or professionally overlap and how you look at those things. Colleen, why don't you start?

[Colleen Ramser]

Yeah, I would say it's definitely an important topic to me because I've experienced trauma and out of that has kind of led to a lot of my work as a therapist and writing about it just in different avenues that God's been using my own story. So I feel very passionate about, a little protective of that space and those people and their stories. And so when the podcast came out, you know, I was like, whoa, this is a very complex topic to discuss. And so I was thankful when Mike reached out, a little hesitant and also thankful just to kind of come on and maybe speak a little bit from that side and maybe what it was like for maybe a trauma survivor to hear and to nuance it a little bit. So, yeah, I'm just passionate about this topic.

[Mary DeMuth]

Yeah, I would agree with that as well. As one who's walked through pretty complex traumatic sexual abuse, there are many multi layers to this. And one thing I think a lot of people who have survived that kind of abuse is how so very long it takes to heal and how oftentimes we who are survivors can get caught in this. I will never get better. This will never change. And then hearing triggers now and again, it just can be a very discouraging journey. I will say with hope you can heal, it can happen, but it's not a linear process. And I'm so grateful that you invited both of us to talk about it because it hits close to home. And unfortunately it hits close to home to a lot of people.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

And that's one of the areas I really want to focus on today. So our podcast and our story had to focus so much on some discrediting of some mistruths, lies, bad investigative and police work. And so maybe in underscoring that in the story, we missed maybe this area where there are so many victims and survivors. So I'd first like to ask you about those two terms. Do you have any personal feeling, professional feeling on the word survivor versus victim? I'm just curious about that because some people do prefer one over the other. And then second, tell us what we missed in this complex area, what we didn't have room for in time for, I guess, and how you might want to add to it.

[Colleen Ramser]

I honestly, when I Think about this question. I'm like, in session. I don't really use those terms. Like, they just don't naturally, like, well, hello, victim today. Or like, hello, survivor today. You know, I think I probably use them interchangeably more when I'm speaking about abuse than I do actually with a client. But I definitely let the client lead how they want to be referred to or how they refer to themselves. But I think what gets a little bit complicated here is how some people feel like, no, don't call me a victim, even out of, maybe even a stance of denial of the abuse that they've went through. And then also there's a grouping of people who might refer to, to victims as like, well, they're just helpless. But I'm like, well, but they were a victim of abuse. So, you know, so there's this a little bit of nuance here. So when I refer to someone as a victim, I'm imagining someone who has been through abuse. They recognize that they have been a victim to something, and I call it what it is. Like, you have been victimized, but that's not where you're meant to stay. And, you know, I even go so far as not just survivor of abuse, but somebody who's thriving and living life. So survivor to me seems more like this middle section of healing where someone is beginning to kind of see a little more of the light at the end of the tunnel, or maybe they've survived something maybe refers to more forward thinking. But I would love to see someone be at a place where they're living life with purpose and meaning again, and they feel like they're thriving, not just even surviving or have survived. So that's kind of how I contextualize those terms a bit. Mary, I'm curious to hear kind of what you, what you would say.

[Mary DeMuth]

I actually echo what you're saying. And I, and I look at my own story, even in my branding journey, which is a really weird way to talk about this. But I started off online turning trials to triumph. So you kind of had that victim mentality. And then it became live uncaged. So being set free from that, and now it is restory. And the part of where I'm in right now is that thriving section of you have been healed in order to be part of healing in this world and part of the new heavens and the new earth come to earth and part of that new redemptive story. And I cannot tell you not to minimize the pain that people have gone through, but it's almost in the same capacity as the pain that I've gone through has been the overarching joy it has been to step into those dark, dark places and be light, not by my own glory, but just to say, I have walked through this very, very long healing journey, and you're gonna be okay, and I'm gonna walk alongside you. And that's the restorying that I think God wants to do. But I think all three of those words are perfect. And it just. It talks about just the journey that God takes us on, from this overwhelming feeling of I'll never get through it to how can I help others? Which is a long journey.

[Colleen Ramser]

You know, like in Genesis, where it talks about, where are you? This is kind of a common thing that's referenced is, you know, we can't really move forward until we acknowledge. And if where we are is that we're a victim, we have to acknowledge that. And then we can begin to acknowledge that we're surviving something. And then we can begin to acknowledge, like, we're restoring and we're integrating aspects of our life into the fullness of our life. And now we're thriving. And so I think it's biblical even to acknowledge where we are to identify ourselves in a category, or categories, for that matter. Yeah.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

I mean, and recovery circles talk a lot about that, too, which, of course, have some spiritual ties, which is we can't heal that, which we can't identify or name. Right. So it makes total sense. But let's talk about memory, because that was such a. A big part of the story. From your own point of view, each of you, how do you think about memory in terms of the reliability of it, the clarity of it, when memories come to somebody or yourself? So, Colleen, you might want to talk about this in terms of folks you work with or yourself. Mary, likewise. But, Mary, I thought we'd start with you because you shared a story with me that I thought really illustrated this and was very clarifying for me. Maybe you could share that and anything else you want as well about when you returned to your elementary school and that memory experience.

[Mary DeMuth]

Yes. So I was sexually abused at the age of five for my entire kindergarten year by neighborhood bullies in their teens. And it was pervasive. It was terrible. They would kill my parents if I told all the things. And also in. In terms of that, we had. I had a babysitter who I actually told, which is very rare for a sexual abuse surv her at five to do, and she never did anything about it. So we had a lot of the institutional protectionism that we're seeing in a lot of these, like the SBC that you've talked about. I had all of that. So that happened at 5. I told at 15 again, because the babysitter didn't do anything and was unbelieved. And then on one of our anniversaries, we decided I would go back to the place where it happened. I do not advise this to anybody. Do not do this on your anniversary. So we went back, and I was decades away from that abuse. And I walked up to the elementary school where I had attended during that year. And I said to my husband, there's a trail connected to the elementary school that is in the woods, which is where all these things happen. And he's like, it's not on the map. It doesn't exist. And I said, no, no, it's here. I know it. And I identified every landmark. And when we got to the edge of the schoolyard, there was this little break in the chain link fence that led to the scary park where most of these things happen. And I didn't uncover that memory. It was always there. But there was something about being in the location that was clarifying for me. And then, of course, an hour later, I thought I needed to go to the hospital because I was vomiting so much that I couldn't keep anything down. And I misunderstood the nature of trauma. I had all these pictures of me standing in front of the elementary school. I'm smiling, praising God. We praised, prayed God, you know, prayed every. In front of everything. And an hour later, I. I couldn't stop the vomiting. So my body did remember what had gone on in those woods.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

Well, that's Van der Polk's work of the body keeps the score. And like you're saying, so it wasn't so much a recovered memory as something that was always there. And it was activated by the physical visceral connection you now had to it. That was very eye opening and I think really helpful to hear. And thank you for sharing that. That's a lot. Colleen, how do you think about this?

[Colleen Ramser]

You know, it's interesting in terms of semantics, like how people kind of attach to certain words and even like recovered or repressed, like I might use the word disassociated, but they're all kind of, whether it's being pushed down or pushed away or pushed to the right or pushed above, you know, there's still some level of, you know, it's emerging, it's coming out. When, like, for Mary, she was using some external cues that were causing the body to Kind of come alive to what she had lived. And the body then takes over and keeps the score, as we know. And so, you know, even though, you know, in the podcast, you know, there's kind of like a, you know, like a frown on repressed memory or recovered memory. I think we're saying a lot of the same thing, if I could be honest. We're talking about something that gets pushed down out of a reasons to stay safe and to survive and to live life and go on with your life. And at the right time, whether there's external cues that push you into to having to deal with the memory or later in life, you feel safe enough in your body that you can begin to process. You find yourself in therapy, and it feels like a very safe space to be able to do so. But kind of going back to disassociation and how someone tells their story of trauma, I very rarely see someone. I've actually got a phrase that I say. I very rarely see someone who's going to be able to tell their story in a linear fashion, like it's a movie, like, here's the beginning, the middle and the end. And when I first start meeting with someone, I actually pretty quickly tell them because they feel self conscious. And I'm like, I'm really good at being able to grab, you know, whatever's coming my way. You know, it doesn't matter if it's linear or not, because it typically isn't. A lot of times it's a felt sense, like Mary had of, like, I just know that there's that trail back there. I feel it. I know it's there. Not to mention, like even just how memory and how disassociative identity disorder shows up. I mean, there's so many fragments that can happen on a scale spectrum to the point where someone even has these multiple identities to keep themselves safe internally. So one part of themselves may remember something and another part is completely divided from it. And so there's so many layers to this, you know, in terms of how it shows up, how memory comes out, whether it's current right after or it's delayed for many, many years until somebody feels safe enough to share, or they get pushed into a wall where the trauma is hitting them. Face on.

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[Mike Kosper]

One reason I wanted to have this conversation was to make sure that it's clear to our listeners, like, we have no intention of attempting to sort of discredit the idea of whatever you want to call it, recovered memory or disassociation or whatever. In fact, I'll share a quick story as well. A few years back, I did an interview with a therapist who had just written a book about complex trauma. The book was really meaningful to me and because of my own experiences with spiritual abuse and being enmeshed in a really unhealthy relationship with a spiritual leader. And I had this crazy experience where I did the interview and the next day I was talking to my executive producer and he was like, how did it go? And my mind was completely blank. I had no memory of the interview whatsoever. And it freaked me out. I was like, oh my gosh. Well, what? Not only is it like just the memory's not there, it was also thinking, well, what on earth did I say, you know, to this person?

[Colleen Ramser]

Oh, no.

[Mike Kosper]

Yeah, exactly. And so. And so it actually took me a couple weeks to kind of get the courage to go in and listen to the thing. And as I listened to it, it sort of dawned on me like, oh, this was, this was really an intense conversation. Not in a way that I think our listeners ever would have noticed or heard it, but intense for me because it just drew a lot out of me. And so I ended up calling her a couple weeks later and saying, hey, sorry, the interview hasn't come out yet. Here's what happened. Honestly, it just took me a little while to get the courage. And she was like, because this is her world. She was like, oh my gosh, I feel so terrible. Like, that I didn't, like you disassociated. And I didn't realize it when it was happening. I was like, no, no, no, it's not your fault. You were fine. I'm a professional, I should be able. Anyway, all that to say, I think that what we see in the satanic panic, and I think particularly when you look at the way the FBI has come to understand what happened there, and other legal experts have come to understand what happened there is. It's not a matter of somebody being triggered and encountering these traumatic memories of their childhood. What it was, was there was some inciting incident that. That led investigators to go looking for evidence of satanic ritual abuse. In fact, we spoke to a prosecutor who said that's like the great temptation of all investigators and all prosecutors is to come up with a theory of the case and then go looking for evidence that supports the theory of the case rather than allowing the evidence to naturally emerge. And I think that's a really important distinction because these kinds of recovered memories, or whatever you want to call it, like, this stuff does happen and it matters, and it's. It's very real. So I just wanted to throw that.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

Into the mix to Colleen and Mary's points, the stories specifically we focused on, I think in the case of Michelle Smith, I'm wondering if sometimes could an actual trauma come out sideways if somebody influences it to take another shape? But it's still. It doesn't necessarily mean they weren't a victim or dealing with some forms of complex trauma. But there certainly is nefarious or there was and has been certainly in that case. In that case, for sure, professionals sort of like coaching something out, which is quite different than having an experience with external cues in an environment versus somebody using specific language and asking leading questions. So I don't have a question with that. I was just. Just saying.

[Mike Kosper]

Well, actually, if I. If I can ask a question, I'd. Colin, I'd love to hear you speak to that because I think there's a lot that the industry has learned around all of this. Can you speak to. When someone's being trained to be a clinician, what do they make of things like hypnotherapy and these kind of guided meditative things that were very popular in the 70s and 80s. And as I understand it, like ethics now would sort of dictate we don't really do that anymore.

[Colleen Ramser]

Well, I would say that hypnosis still is a form of treatment that therapists use as well as, like, I use guided meditation and guided imagery in my sessions. I mean, mostly for healing purposes. For the fact that memory or our posture physiologically toward our memories can be reconstructed. Like our brain is malleable. Like we are able to change physiologically how we feel inside. And so that, I think, in itself is a gift from the Lord that God gives us imagination and the ability to use that to imagine our lives in a different kind of way. And so I want to just point that out that hypnosis is being used to date that I know of, and people can get trained in it, and there's people who benefit from it. I know that it's possible for someone to still unethically do this, but I would say that the training is definitely a lot stricter with ethics. And I'm actually been told by people I supervise as well as interns that my level of ethical concern and integrity in that area is extremely high because I know the power that I hold in the room, and I know that that can cause a ton of damage. And it just breaks my heart just hearing some of the stories on the podcast that you guys did. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, I can't imagine those kids or that woman, even the therapist, they got married. And I'm like, that's so not okay. Yeah, like, darn, you don't do that.

[Mike Kosper]

And it wasn't okay ethically at the time anyway. I mean, it was at the time. It would have even been looked at as kind of scandalous, which is why they hid it from the public when the book first came out.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

Yeah, says a lot. I sometimes feel like our medical and psychological language and research is even insufficient for some of this. And maybe that's also some of the tension and conflict within these episodes is that there is almost a spiritual and supernatural element to healing. And you know, Colleen, how you're talking about moving forward and Mary, and your journey as well, that there's a place for that, but that's also a bit subjective and hard to report on. And then when you take that into the church, how then in these broader stories of systemic abuse, what do you think as Christians, our response should be? I think culturally right now, mainstream culture, there's a very believe survivors type of starting point. And I think I'd love to hear you both talk about that starting point. Is that where you start? Is that not the point? Mary, maybe you could take us there first.

[Mary DeMuth]

Yeah, I would say that's where I err on the side of belief in terms of listening to a Survivor story and a lot of the stats and I don't have the exact stat in front of me right now, but most people that make a declaration like that are telling the truth. A large excessive majority, the smaller portion of folks that make a cry, that is not true. There's a couple of reasons why, some of which could be a mental health issue, that they have some unresolved things and they are doing that out of a mental health issue. And unfortunately also in terms of when there's a custody fight, sometimes you'll have a child being coached by a parent to say something. Now, it doesn't mean that maybe it did happen and maybe it didn't happen, but in some instances that can be a case of a false story. But as a person who is an empathetic listener, I'm not a clinician, but I have walked alongside many, many people. I always err on the side of belief and I try to exercise holy curiosity and just ask a lot of questions. And try, of course, like how it's so important to create that safe space, a non judgmental zone of just like, I'm going to listen and as I get emotion and I cry, I'm going to weep along you and I'm going to get angry alongside you as well. A quick little story about that and then we'll pass it on. But I was in South Africa for the Lausanne Congress for World evangelization. There's like 10,000 Christians from all over the world. And I was a table group leader and I told my story. I'm very comfortable telling my story. And this man at the very end came up to me. His name was Malcolm, and he was at my table and he got on his knees before me and he started weeping and he said, I apologize on behalf of all men of what has been done to you and I hope that this apology will be helpful to you. And then he was just weeping. And there is nothing more empowering than someone hears your story, believes your story, and then gets mad at your story and then identifies so clearly with your story.

[Colleen Ramser]

You know, there's two statistics in terms of false allegations. One of them's like 3 to 5%, the other one's like 2 to 8%. So it's very, very low. You know, Rebecca, you were mentioning it seems like we're maybe kind of alluding to maybe we're in a good space church wise, where people are believing. I would say we're not quite there yet. I would say that I'm still kind of on mission trying to get pastors and churches and those who are receiving disclosures to believe the victim, to not be skeptical or to not even be biased. You know, the majority of people who are hearing these disclosures are men. And so it's not uncommon for there to be more of a male bias, especially in like domestic abuse cases where, well, it can't be really that bad. You know, it's probably just a difficult marriage that they're going through. So I'm still on mission trying to educate and get pastors to sit with these women, you know, our men, or whoever it is that's coming forward and believe their story, to leave the skepticism, to leave the theology actually to the side for the moment. And the other aspect that I think is important to mention when you're receiving a story of abuse is that one, I'm not an investigator, and neither is a pastor. But if, as far as I know, every state in the U.S. you know, if you're a pastor or a therapist, you're a mandatory reporter. And so if it's a story of child abuse, a vulnerable adult or an elderly, then every pastor that is hearing this is required to report. We're not required to figure out who's the one in the right and who's the one in the wrong. So, you know, I think that that's important to think about as well. But not to mention, I think that majority of the cases that I get, some of the most damaging pieces for survivors. Victims to experience is not being believed. And I think Mary was kind of alluding to this as well, and how it's so profoundly healing to have someone look at you and get it and be like, I'm here. Like, I believe what you're saying. I feel like I do more trauma work with the bystanders than I do with the actual person who created the initial trauma. And so to me, it's just too much of a risk to not believe what someone's saying or at least to have a posture of belief.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

To clarify, I think I was saying, culturally, we're in a place of belief. Survivors post. Me too. I don't see a lot of church being super receptive to these stories. I just wanted to.

[Colleen Ramser]

Yeah, thank you. Yeah. I was not sure we're there yet.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

No, no, no. I don't. I don't believe so either, unfortunately.

[Colleen Ramser]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

Which kind of leads to somewhere. I wanted to end on a more positive note, but maybe. Mike, before I do that, do you have more specific questions that you want to make sure dots are connected for the show?

[Mike Kosper]

I mean, I think this is all. I think this is all so important. And, you know, a big factor in the story we were trying to tell is that when a moral panic like this takes over, it sort of fills the imagination of people in authority. It's almost like you sort of tune your intuition looking for a particular kind of evil. Like, if child abuse is going to happen, it's gonna look this way. It's gonna involve the sacrifice of kittens you know, had a black mass in a cemetery or something, or this whole mythology of the underground tunnels at this daycare, which did not exist, like, there was no underground tunnel. And intentionally. Part of what we wanted to do was to contrast that with the abuse inside the Southern Baptist churches that was going on at the time, particularly the story of Paul Pressler, because people were looking for one particular expression of this evil. They were not ready to see what was happening there. And there are so many other churches, there are so many other leaders, so many other examples of people who bear responsibility for minimizing, for looking the other way for, oh, boys will be boys, like, whatever it might be that enabled this kind of abuse. And I think that's a really critical piece of this. And I think the key distinction, I mean, if there's one thing that I'm passionate about saying today, it's that there are not significant cases where a child came forward and said, this happened to me, and the child was lying. What happened was someone got suspicious that something was happening with the child, and it turned into these grand mythologies. Then the investigators went looking and they sat down with kids. And, you know, as we talked about on the show, you're sitting with a kid and you're saying, well, everybody else said that this happened to them. Be a good boy, Be a good girl. Tell us what really happened. Tell us. You know, and it's that coercive thing. That's just an entirely different category than simply believing someone when they report what happened to them.

[Colleen Ramser]

I think it's really good that you point that out as well as, you know, I think what was challenging with these ideas is that there isn't a clear conclusion. Right. You know, and I think we're also coming to. When we come to a podcast or really anything, we're coming to it with our own stories. And so there's gaps that we're all going to fill in with. Maybe they're trying to do this with the podcast, or maybe they're trying to do that with the podcast, you know, and so I think it's important to recognize that. And I like that you're kind of giving some clarity around that, because, you know, you're not saying that an abuse victim should never be believed or that bad things or even very sadistic, satanic things don't happen to people. It does, and it's rare, but it does happen. And so I think that's the tension that is really hard to hold.

[Mary DeMuth]

I just want to say thanks, too, for making that particular episode. I just I felt so joyfully sad afterwards, if that makes sense, because I felt seen and heard, because I've been fighting in that system of the SBC for a while and recently just attended kind of a wake for the sbc. A bunch of survivors and advocates got together and wept over it, because we feel like. I mean, I personally feel like all that work was for nothing. I know it's not, but it felt that way. And afterwards, my husband said, I think you need to watch Spotlight tonight. Because I was just so mad and upset because all this evil has happened and no one seems to see it. And so I watched it. And that quote came up by Mitchell, the investigator, and he said, if it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to abuse a child. And I think that's the evil that we need to address within our institutional hierarchies of we would rather protect this institution because of money, because of power, because of insecurity. Who knows what it is? But that is way more important than a child who makes an outcry against someone who has harmed them within the walls of. Of those churches. And that is evil. Let's talk about what really is evil. The enemy's having a heyday there. You talk about this problem of deconstruction, ask a couple questions of someone walking through that, and you're gonna pull away institutional protectionism. You're gonna pull away some sort of abuse that was not handled well. We need to get this right, and we need to act as Jesus in all of this. It's so simple. But I don't see why people don't see it.

[Colleen Ramser]

Right. Right.

[Mike Kosper]

Someone said, I don't know if they posted this online or if this was in a text thread, but they were at the Southern Baptist Convention a couple weeks ago for the annual meeting and happened to bump into Paige Patterson while they were there. And they thought to themselves, paige Patterson is here. Jen Lyell is gone, and so is Dwayne Rollins. That's the situation in the spc. And Jen Lyle, we didn't talk about her on our show, but she was one of the first whistleblowers and a victim herself of horrific abuse. And that's the tragedy. And I think when it comes to that line, I love that line from Spotlight. I'm haunted by it. And I think there's not a better example of that than the Paul Pressler story, because people did come forward. Parents brought things up. Things were said over the years in different ways. And there was this sense that what he meant to the convention was so important that you had to kind of. I think people would say, well, we did what we could to sort of mitigate it, you know, not give him access to young folks or whatever. But that's not justice. Right. And in fact, it does perpetuate it in a variety of ways. And so, again, that, to me, is what's so tragic about all of this is that that parents and young people were looking out for a particular kind of monster because of the nature of this mythology and this panic, and they were unprepared for the one that was sitting in the pew next to them.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

Yeah. And the need to exaggerate and embellish around these horrific acts is so unnecessary. It is evil and horrific on its own. It didn't need to be mythologized, the way Mike's talking about, to get people. Well, it did, apparently, to get people to care about that, but it was the wrong thing all along. I just think this kind of abuse of any kind is just. It is evil. It just doesn't need exaggeration.

[Mike Kosper]

The truth is always bad enough.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

Right, right. But to look forward, is there anything you're seeing that is helpful in the church, out of the church, legislatively, in your personal story or work?

[Colleen Ramser]

I mean, gosh, I've been a therapist. I think it's been like 15 years or something crazy. And, you know, there's so much more. We know about the BR and about the body. And humbly, really, when I talk about the brain and the body, I always say, just wait 10 years and it'll change. There's just so much that we're learning. And I think it's been very helpful, especially specifically to Christians, because I think that there's a little bit of a skepticism around the body, around psychology, around using things like EMDR or internal family systems, things like that, that. That can absolutely include the Holy Spirit, you know. And so I'm very encouraged by that and just being able to work with Christians who are being able to move forward, you know, from their abuse and their trauma and it not weigh them down anymore. I think that there's some progress in the church. I think we still have a long way to go. I wish I could say that's not true, but I also know, yeah, there are definitely pastors that I consult that consult with me that their heart is genuine and they want to learn and they want to be a safe church. They want to do the right thing. When someone discloses, they're just unsure how to go about it. So I know that those pastors do exist, those ministry leaders do exist. But there's also the flip side that we're still dealing with where people don't want to see it, they want to push it under the rug. They don't report, they blame the victim. You know, all the things that we hear and see. And so, and the court system, I'm still holding out. You know, I think there's a lot of issues. It's very broken. And, you know, sometimes I wish that there was better routes for justice, but I think a lot of victims don't get the justice they deserve.

[Mary DeMuth]

And I think that's where, you know, theology does come in. And having a good eschatological mindset toward, you're not going to have it all here. As much as you want to be whole, there's still a little bit of that. Not yet. But I think one thing, a couple things. One is I start speaking about this in the 90s and I would freak out all of the speaker coordinators in the back of the room when I would tell my story. And they'd be like, no, no, no. But what would happen was these dear women would come up to me, like 70, 80 years old, you know, some younger, but like, I've never told my story. This is the first time I've told it. And they began to tell their story. And I often tell audiences, an untold story never heals. And so I'm just going to go first for the sake of letting other people have this, be normalized. One of the things that I think was hard about me too, you know, I applaud a lot of that. But the difficulty was we were having people disclose their pain and their stories. And many of them for the first time were disclosing them on social media, which is a horrifically unsafe place. And so you have this like secondary trauma going on because you haven't found a safe space. And we as a culture, we're not great at having safe spaces. Our churches are not great at being safe spaces. And so how sad that a first time telling would be on X. You know, that's just not a good thing. But I would say I am encouraged that there is growth. The pastor of the church I'm attending gave a sermon about the concubine at the end of Judges. And it was one of the most beautiful. First of all, I've never heard anyone preach on it because they're freaked out about that story. But he equated her with Jesus and his suffering because he was silent and she was silent in the narrative. And so I am seeing some beautiful things in pastoral ministry. It's certainly not widespread, but I have experienced it and it gives me a lot of hope that perhaps if we keep talking about this and we keep going first and we keep providing safe places, that eventually there will be more healing and a more normalizing of sharing your story.

[Rebecca Sebastian]

Thank you. That's such an image of older generations of women. I guess I don't think about that a lot, but of course they have those stories right and how liberating it must be for them to hear them being spoken out loud through other people. So I just really want to thank you both for doing the work you do and taking the time to offer some of that to us. Really, really appreciate it.

[Mike Kosper]

Devil in the Deep Blue Sea is a production of Christianity Today. It's hosted and written by Mike Kosper, produced by Mike Kosper and Rebecca Sebastian, with production assistance from Dawn Adams Sound design and mix engineering by TJ Hester Sound design, animation and video by Steve Scheidler Graphic design Nim Ben Rubin, Eric Petrick and Mike Kosper are executive producers of CT Media Podcasts. Matt Stevens is our senior producer. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating and review wherever you listen. It'll help more people find the show. Thanks for listening.