Devil and the Deep Blue Sea: BONUS Episode Summary
Episode: What Does It Mean to Believe Survivors? In Conversation with Mary DeMuth and Colleen Ramser
Release Date: July 14, 2025

In this bonus episode of Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, hosted by Mike Kosper and Rebecca Sebastian from Christianity Today, the conversation pivots to address critical feedback and delve deeper into the nuanced topics of abuse, trauma, memory, and the importance of believing survivors. Featuring insights from survivor Mary DeMuth and trauma therapist Colleen Ramser, the episode offers a heartfelt exploration of these sensitive subjects, providing listeners with both personal narratives and professional perspectives.

1. Introduction and Context

[00:57]
Mike Kosper opens the episode by acknowledging the sensitive nature of previous discussions in the series, particularly those surrounding the Satanic Panic of the 1980s and 90s. He references specific cases like the McMartin preschool, satanic ritual abuse, and the controversial book Michelle Remembers, co-authored by Michelle Smith and Lawrence Pazder, which significantly influenced the Satanic Panic movement.

[01:44]
Rebecca Sebastian addresses listener feedback expressing concerns that the podcast may have inadvertently downplayed the reality and complexity of abuse while criticizing flawed investigative practices. She emphasizes the show's intent to distinguish between acknowledging the prevalence of abuse and critiquing how allegations are handled.

2. Clarifying Intentions: Acknowledging Abuse While Critiquing Investigations

[01:59]
Mike Kosper clarifies that the podcast aims to highlight systemic and personal abuse without questioning its occurrence. He emphasizes support for victims and survivors, stressing that the focus is on how abuse allegations are processed, not on the validity of the abuse itself. He cites discussions on abuse within evangelical churches, particularly the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), to illustrate how mythologizing abuse can obscure real predators.

[02:44]
Rebecca Sebastian introduces the guests, Mary DeMuth, a survivor, and Colleen Ramser, a trauma therapist, to provide their personal, professional, and spiritual insights on abuse and trauma, emphasizing the podcast's commitment to supporting healing.

3. Survivor vs. Victim: Understanding Terminology

[05:58]
Rebecca Sebastian initiates a discussion on the preferred terminology between "survivor" and "victim." She seeks the guests' perspectives on these terms and what aspects the podcast may have overlooked regarding the complexity of abuse and memory.

[07:44]
Mary DeMuth shares her personal journey, highlighting the multifaceted nature of healing from traumatic sexual abuse. She emphasizes that recovery is a non-linear process filled with moments of despair and hope.

[09:05]
Colleen Ramser discusses her approach as a therapist, explaining that she allows clients to define their own identities, whether as victims or survivors. She elaborates on the progression from victimhood to thriving, underscoring the biblical significance of acknowledging one's position in the healing journey.

Notable Quote:
"Survivor to me seems more like this middle section of healing where someone is beginning to kind of see a little more of the light at the end of the tunnel." — Colleen Ramser [04:24]

4. The Reliability of Memory in Trauma Cases

[09:38]
The conversation shifts to the role of memory in trauma. Rebecca Sebastian introduces the topic by referencing Mary DeMuth's experience of reactivating a traumatic memory through visiting her former elementary school.

[10:26]
Mary recounts her experience of being sexually abused at age five and the reactivation of those memories decades later when revisiting the abuse site. She describes the physical manifestations of trauma, such as vomiting, which indicate that the distressing memory was always present in her body.

[12:31]
Rebecca connects this to the concept introduced in "The Body Keeps the Score," highlighting how physical and visceral responses can surface buried memories, emphasizing that these are not mere "recovered memories" but manifestations of long-held trauma.

[12:56]
Colleen Ramser delves into the nuances of memory recovery, discussing how trauma can lead to dissociation and fragmented memories. She highlights the non-linear nature of trauma narratives, where memories emerge in pieces rather than a cohesive story, underscoring the complexity of therapeutic approaches to trauma.

Notable Quote:
"There's no denying that abuse happens. Our concern was to highlight the fact that when we embrace a kind of mythology of abuse which is not rooted in the facts, we distract ourselves from real predators who are in our midst." — Mike Kosper [02:44]

5. The Satanic Panic Revisited

[15:40]
Mike Kosper shares a personal anecdote about his own experience with disassociation during a deep conversation about complex trauma, underscoring the genuine nature of trauma experiences despite past misrepresentations during the Satanic Panic era.

[19:17]
Rebecca Sebastian raises the question of whether trauma can be altered or influenced by external factors, referencing the Michelle Smith case, and explores the possibility that trauma might be reshaped without negating the victim's experience.

[20:02]
Mike poses a question to Colleen regarding the ethical evolution of therapeutic practices, particularly concerning hypnotherapy and guided meditation, which were contentious during the Satanic Panic.

[20:31]
Colleen responds by affirming that hypnosis remains a legitimate therapeutic tool when used ethically. She emphasizes the importance of therapist integrity and the potential for both healing and harm, depending on the practitioner's approach.

Notable Quote:
"I can't imagine those kids or that woman, even the therapist, they got married. And I'm like, that's so not okay." — Colleen Ramser [22:04]

6. Believing Survivors in the Church

[23:15]
Rebecca shifts the focus to the church's role in responding to abuse allegations, asking Mary and Colleen about the cultural shift towards "believing survivors" and how this aligns with Christian responses.

[24:XX]
Mary DeMuth advocates for the default position of believing survivors, noting that the vast majority are telling the truth. She shares a poignant story of a man who genuinely connected with her pain, illustrating the healing power of being believed.

Notable Quote:
"I'm just going to go first for the sake of letting other people have this, be normalized." — Mary DeMuth [31:08]

[25:26]
Colleen Ramser provides statistics on false allegations, emphasizing their rarity, and discusses the ongoing mission to educate pastors and church leaders to adopt a posture of belief and support for survivors. She underscores the importance of mandatory reporting and the detrimental effects of disbelief on victims.

Notable Quote:
"I think that majority of the cases that I get, some of the most damaging pieces for survivors...is not being believed." — Colleen Ramser [27:46]

7. Institutional Abuse and the True Nature of Evil

[28:16]
Mike Kosper delves into the distinction between genuine abuse and the exaggerated mythologies of the Satanic Panic. He criticizes how investigators during the panic sought evidence to fit preconceived theories, diverting attention from real instances of institutional abuse, particularly within the SBC.

[30:21]
Colleen echoes the importance of recognizing real abuse over fabricated narratives. She reiterates that acknowledging actual victims and preventing the spread of unfounded allegations are crucial for justice and healing.

[31:08]
Mary shares her emotional response to the podcast's episode, expressing both sorrow and hope. She emphasizes the need for institutional accountability, highlighting that protecting institutions over victims perpetuates evil within church hierarchies.

Notable Quote:
"There's such an image of older generations of women...being liberated by having their stories spoken out loud." — Mary DeMuth [39:18]

8. Pathways to Healing and Hope

[35:05]
Colleen discusses advancements in trauma therapy, such as EMDR and internal family systems, which integrate psychological techniques with spiritual healing. She expresses optimism about Christians embracing these methods to move beyond trauma.

[36:56]
Mary highlights the role of theology in healing, advocating for an eschatological mindset that looks beyond earthly suffering. She shares experiences of witnessing church leaders authentically addressing and empathizing with survivors, fostering a safe environment for healing.

[39:43]
Rebecca and Mike conclude the conversation by acknowledging the progress made and the work still required to create safe spaces within the church and society for survivors to heal and be believed.

Notable Quote:
"The truth is always bad enough." — Rebecca Sebastian [34:52]

Conclusion

This bonus episode of Devil and the Deep Blue Sea offers a profound exploration of the delicate balance between acknowledging the prevalence of abuse and critiquing flawed investigative practices that emerged during the Satanic Panic. Through the heartfelt narratives of Mary DeMuth and the professional insights of Colleen Ramser, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the complexities surrounding trauma, memory, and the critical importance of believing and supporting survivors. The conversation underscores the necessity for churches and institutions to create safe, empathetic environments that prioritize the healing and justice of abuse victims over protecting institutional reputations.

Notable Final Quote:
"I have walked through this very, very long healing journey, and you're gonna be okay, and I'm gonna walk alongside you." — Mary DeMuth [09:05]

This summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, personal stories, and professional insights, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.