Hell's Bells

Summary

Devil and the Deep Blue Sea: Episode Summary - "Hell's Bells"

Release Date: March 25, 2025

Introduction

In the episode titled "Hell's Bells," hosted by Christianity Today, the podcast delves deep into the intricate tapestry of the Satanic Panic that engulfed America during the 1980s and 90s. This episode explores the intertwining of religious movements, political agendas, and the profound impact of hysteria on innocent lives and the church itself.

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Setting the Stage: The 1970s to 1980s Landscape

The narrative begins by contextualizing the early 1970s, highlighting significant global political shifts such as President Nixon's travels to China and Moscow, the signing of the SALT Treaty, and the nascent stages leading to the fall of the Berlin Wall. Domestically, the U.S. was a nation in turmoil with events like Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland and the escalating Vietnam War fostering a sense of instability.

Mike Kosper introduces the period as a "pressure cooker being pushed to the very brink," suggesting that these global tensions provided fertile ground for religious movements to gain traction by addressing life, death, and eternity amidst chaos.

Youth Evangelism at the Munich Olympics

In 1972, during the Munich Olympic Games, Don Stephens, European Director of Youth With A Mission (YWAM), recounts how over a thousand young Christian evangelists descended upon the city. Initially perceived as nuisances, the tragic hostage situation involving Palestinian terrorists shifted the city's mood from celebration to mourning. This transformation opened doors for YWAM missionaries, turning them from unwelcome figures into symbols of hope.

Don Stephens (04:15): "Overnight, the carnival of the Olympics turned into a funeral. People milled about in the streets, lost. Suddenly, our young people were accepted, for we were in Munich as emissaries of hope."

This event not only solidified YWAM's recurring ministry at the Olympics but also inspired other ministries to view such global gatherings as pivotal moments for evangelism.

The Escalation: Reagan Era and Evangelical Mobilization

Fast forward to the late 1980s, President Ronald Reagan's escalation against the Soviet Union and the introduction of the Strategic Defense Initiative intensified global tensions. Concurrently, the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) experienced internal strife between conservative leaders like Jerry Falwell and Ralph Reed and more moderate factions.

Mike Kosper explains how the intersection of the church growth movement, charismatic renewal, and the fear-driven Satanic Panic created a potent mix of spiritual warfare rhetoric:

Mike Kosper (06:51): "When you look at this moment in time, there's a sense of brinksmanship, a sense of urgency in our politics, our denominations, our escalating culture wars, a sense that something terrible... could descend upon us at any moment."

Charismatic Movements and the Rise of Deliverance Ministries

The episode highlights the rise of charismatic leaders like Jack Hafer and John Dawson, who introduced concepts like spiritual warfare, demonology, and deliverance ministry into mainstream evangelical thought. These ideas were further popularized by figures such as Derek Prince and Bob Larson, whose dramatic exorcism practices resonated with the broader cultural fears of Satanic influence.

Don Stephens shares excerpts from A.A. Allen's deliverance services, illustrating the dramatic and theatrical nature of these ministries:

Don Stephens (13:16): "Jesus, Lord, you said, you shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover... In Jesus name I bind you, you foul devil, tonight."

These practices contributed to an amplified awareness of spiritual warfare, making the supernatural aspects of Christianity more vivid and, to some extent, mainstream.

Strategic Spiritual Warfare and Church Growth

Matthew Taylor, a scholar, discusses the fusion of church growth strategies with spiritual warfare theology, particularly through the influence of Peter Wagner. Wagner's partnership with John Wimber led to courses like "Signs, Wonders and Church Growth" at Fuller Seminary, merging evangelistic strategies with charismatic practices.

Matthew Taylor (26:06): "They start experimenting with these ideas of apostles and prophets and spiritual warfare... they're really trying to develop strategies based on supernatural revelation."

This strategic approach aimed to identify and combat specific demonic influences over geographic territories, blending practical church growth tactics with esoteric spiritual battles.

The Dark Side: Abuse and Power within the Southern Baptist Convention

Transitioning to the darker aspects, the episode exposes the systemic abuse within the SBC, focusing on figures like Paul Pressler and Paige Patterson. Rich Perez recounts allegations of sexual misconduct against Pressler, whose influence within the SBC facilitated a culture of silence and protection over perpetrators.

Rich Perez (38:54): "He had stopped going [to Second Baptist Church] since the early 60s after a fight with one of the other prominent families there... Paul has molested him in a sauna."

These abuses were shielded by the conservative resurgence led by Pressler and Patterson, prioritizing the denomination's image over victim accountability. The Houston Chronicle's investigative reporting unveiled decades of cover-ups, revealing a mirror image of the Catholic Church's abuse scandals.

Rich Perez (48:35): "There were cases where... the church decided it was too harmful to publicize allegations, effectively enabling pressler's continued misconduct."

Cultural Reflections: Rock Music and Demonic Influence

The podcast also touches upon the cultural fears surrounding rock music, portraying it as an avenue for demonic influence and moral decay. It highlights historical reactions to rock and roll, such as Jimmy Snow's sermons against its perceived evil, and the controversial phenomenon of backmasking—alleged subliminal messages in music meant to sway listeners towards satanic messages.

Don Stephens (66:28): "One Bible scholar said Lucifer was not just a musician. He was music in himself... listening to it."

These fears perpetuated the notion that modern culture was under siege by malevolent forces, reinforcing the narrative of an ongoing spiritual battle.

Conclusion: Internalizing Evil and the Need for Accountability

Mike Kosper wraps up by arguing that the Satanic Panic's externalization of evil served as a scapegoat for deeper, more insidious issues within communities and religious institutions. The episode underscores the importance of recognizing that true evil often resides within trusted circles, far from the dramatic portrayals of demonic conspiracies.

Mike Kosper (70:29): "Maybe that isn't somewhere out there at all. Maybe those bells are ringing in our living rooms, our heads, our hearts."

Closing Thoughts

"Hell's Bells" serves as a compelling examination of how hysteria, religious zeal, and political agendas intertwined to shape a period of American history fraught with fear and misunderstanding. By unraveling the layers of the Satanic Panic, the episode invites listeners to critically assess the narratives that have long influenced evangelical thought and societal perceptions of good and evil.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Don Stephens (04:15): "Overnight, the carnival of the Olympics turned into a funeral. People milled about in the streets, lost. Suddenly, our young people were accepted, for we were in Munich as emissaries of hope."

• Mike Kosper (06:51): "When you look at this moment in time, there's a sense of brinksmanship, a sense of urgency in our politics, our denominations, our escalating culture wars, a sense that something terrible... could descend upon us at any moment."

• Don Stephens (13:16): "Jesus, Lord, you said, you shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover... In Jesus name I bind you, you foul devil, tonight."

• Matthew Taylor (26:06): "They start experimenting with these ideas of apostles and prophets and spiritual warfare... they're really trying to develop strategies based on supernatural revelation."

• Rich Perez (38:54): "He had stopped going [to Second Baptist Church] since the early 60s after a fight with one of the other prominent families there... Paul has molested him in a sauna."

• Rich Perez (48:35): "There were cases where... the church decided it was too harmful to publicize allegations, effectively enabling pressler's continued misconduct."

• Don Stephens (66:28): "One Bible scholar said Lucifer was not just a musician. He was music in himself... listening to it."

• Mike Kosper (70:29): "Maybe that isn't somewhere out there at all. Maybe those bells are ringing in our living rooms, our heads, our hearts."

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Final Notes

"Hell's Bells" offers a critical lens on a tumultuous period in American religious and cultural history, shedding light on the consequences of fear-driven narratives and the importance of accountability within powerful institutions. This episode is essential listening for those seeking to understand the complexities of the Satanic Panic and its lasting impact on American society and the church.

Transcript

[Rich Perez]

This episode is brought to you in.

[Mike Kosper]

Part by the Apologetics Guy show, the podcast that helps you find clear answers.

[Don Stephens]

To tough questions about Christianity.

[Mike Kosper]

Learn to explain your faith with courage and compassion.

[Don Stephens]

Join Moody Bible Institute Professor Dr. Michel.

[Rich Perez]

Del Rosario at apologeticsguy.com.

[Don Stephens]

There'S no denying.

[Rich Perez]

That how our cities and neighborhoods are.

[Don Stephens]

Shaped have a deep impact on our lives.

[Rich Perez]

Even more so, the design of our.

[Don Stephens]

Neighborhoods reflect our values. So who gets to shape them? You see, while it's easy to recognize.

[Rich Perez]

A city, identifying a just one is more challenging. The urban landscape tells a story of who's prioritized and who's marginalized, what's deemed.

[Don Stephens]

Worthy of investment, and what's considered expendable. In this podcast series, we'll explore the relationship between race and place, and together.

[Rich Perez]

In conversation with neighbors and experts, we'll.

[Don Stephens]

Unravel the threads that shape life in our cities. I'm Rich Perez, and this is this great and complicated place. Join us on Spotify, itunes or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Rich Perez]

Subscribe today and join the conversation.

[Mike Kosper]

We see you there. This is CT Media. A note to listeners this series contains sensitive content including sexual abuse, child murder, and dark spiritual themes. Today's episode includes archival audio of a reported exorcism and details of repeated sexual.

[Don Stephens]

Abuse, and may not be suitable for all listeners.

[Mike Kosper]

So I want to start with one of my favorite weird inflection points in the Satanic panic. It's from 1984, but to do that I actually need to go back to the 70s for just a second. 1972, in fact, the moment when the Jesus people movement is really getting mainstream. It was a huge year in global politics. President Nixon had made his famous trip to China, which really kind of shifted the balance of power in the Cold War. He also went to Moscow that year, where he and Soviet General Secretary Leonid Brezhnev signed the SALT Treaty, a treaty that significantly lowered the temperature of the nuclear arms race. East and West Germany began talks that would lead to a treaty between them by the year's end. Kind of fragile peace that would be the key to the fall of the Berlin Wall. Two decades later. Not all was peace and quiet, though. January 1972, British troops shot 26 unarmed protesters in Northern Ireland. They known as Bloody Sunday. Vietnam War was raging on the escalatory bombing campaigns by the US So it was tumultuous, like a pressure cooker being pushed to the very brink. For some Christians, though, it felt like an opportunity, a moment where both the threat of violence and the hope of peace might make people take life, death and eternity more seriously. And that year presented a unique opportunity to reach the nations because the nations were all coming together.

[Don Stephens]

Since the creation of Adam and Eve, there has never been an international gathering of the size of the one we'll have next year in Munich, Germany, for the 1972 Olympic Games.

[Mike Kosper]

This is Don Stephens, European director of youth with a mission often referred to AS YWAM, speaking. In 1971, there will be people literally.

[Don Stephens]

From every nation under heaven. The Olympic Committee states with their official figures that there will be between 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 million visitors to that city next year. 12,000 athletes from 127 nations. I believe that God is allowing us another possibility to see an impact upon the world through the efforts of young Christians.

[Mike Kosper]

Altogether, YWAM would bring more than a thousand young people to Munich for evangelistic efforts. But things didn't go as planned. At the beginning. The city's reaction to a thousand zealous student evangelists was negative. They were treated like a nuisance. Of course, the Munich Games are infamous, but not for the global revival they sparked.

[Don Stephens]

In Munich, hopes burn bright that the Olympics will go off without incident. As the torch is born to the top of the stadium, however, the drama, the athletic competition is soon overwhelmed by a calamity unfolding in the compound, which houses Israel's team. Figures seen in the windows by gathering throngs are those of Arab guerrillas holding Israeli athletes hostage. Nightfall descends on the scene, but the suspense goes on. Mustering a helicopter, the terrorists whisk their captives to Munich's airport. Then, as their escape is about to be frustrated by German police, one of the guerrillas destroys the helicopter with a hand grenade, killing 11 Israel and himself.

[Mike Kosper]

When it was all over, Palestinian terrorists, aligned with a group called Black September, killed 11 Israeli athletes. With much of the violence playing out live on television during a failed rescue effort, the city, and the Olympic village in particular, fell into grief and mourning. In that atmosphere, these earnest young Christian missionaries were much more well received. Lauren Cunningham, founder of ywam, wrote about that change in his memoir, saying, overnight, the carnival of the Olympics turned into a funeral. People milled about in the streets, lost. Suddenly, our young people were accepted, for we were in Munich as emissaries of hope. Their presence became such a blessing to a grieving city that officials in Munich opened up the city's gardens, providing the YWAM missionaries with flowers to distribute. The Munich Games didn't usher in the Second coming, but they did bring a recurring ministry for Ywam and inspired a number of Other ministries to look at the Olympics as a moment to reach the nations. That intensified 12 years later. Once again, the world was in tumult. President Ronald Reagan had escalated tensions with the Soviet Union, calling it an evil empire, expanding the US's nuclear arsenal and making plans for the Strategic Defense Initiative or Star Wars, a satellite based system that would defend the US from nuclear attacks. In the midst of this, the Olympics were coming to America.

[Don Stephens]

Now. Down to two, down to one, and the cannons begin.

[Mike Kosper]

This is a moment when North American evangelicalism was going through a period of radical change. The church growth movement was exploding, as well as a charismatic movement that emphasized spiritual warfare. Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, was going through a kind of civil war. Leaders like Jerry Falwell and Ralph Reed were working to mobilize evangelicals on behalf of the Republican Party, pitching the political war and the culture war as a cosmic battle between good and evil. And of course, all of the undercurrents of the Satanic panic were continuing to unfold. It felt like anything could happen at any moment. YWAM mobilized 7,000 students for evangelistic activities during the Olympics, and thousands more adults would take part as well. The Olympic outreach, as it was called, would also mobilize a number of local churches and ministries, including charismatic leader Jack Hafer, pastor of the church on the way. In Van Nuys, California, near the end of the Games, Hayford had a vision. Writing about it later, he said the Holy Spirit had spoken to him, telling him to gather everyone together and warn them to pray against the destruction of the city of Los Angeles, which was under threat, as he put it, the vile ministry of a high level demon angel named Apollyon the Destroyer. John Dawson, a YWAM leader at the time, describes in his own book how there were many Christians who were experiencing similar premonitions and warnings of doom. As he put it, something terrible was about to happen in Los Angeles, and it was averted through the repentance, obedience, and earnest prayer of thousands of Christians across the city. For a lot of evangelicals today, some of this language is familiar, but it's important to note that this was a time of significant theological innovation. Phrases began entering the evangelical lexicon, most of which have some reference point in Scripture, but had new or novel practical applications, many of which have something to do with the concept of spiritual warfare. Even that phrase, though obviously based in biblical metaphors, was essentially an innovation, as was praying, a hedge of protection, prayer, walking, word of knowledge, binding spirits, or deliverance ministry. These phrases and concepts largely emerge from that charismatic renewal, and with them comes a shift in the spiritual imaginations of Christians, a more vivid way of thinking about angels, demons, demonic influence, even demonic control over geographic spaces. Which brings me to my point. When you look at this moment in time, there's a sense of brinksmanship, a sense of urgency in our politics, our denominations, our escalating culture wars, a sense that something terrible, be it a nuclear apocalypse or spiritual one, could descend upon us at any moment. That brinksmanship helped elevate and escalate the satanic panels. It also distracted us from other evils that were staring us right in the eyes. From Christianity Today, I'm Mike Kosper, and you're listening to Devil in the Deep Blue Sea. This season, we're looking at the Satanic panic and how chasing phantoms distracted us from real devils in our midst. Today's episode, episode five, Hell's Bells Around.

[Don Stephens]

And you never hear it coming when you're covering up your ear.

[Mike Kosper]

So what role did the church play in cultivating the atmosphere around the Satanic panic? That's a question that's been on my mind from the moment I started looking at this story, especially when I started looking at some of the wrongful convictions that we've discussed in our earlier episodes. I think there's a complicated answer. And while my focus has been on the evangelical movement, that answer goes beyond evangelicals and includes the church more broadly. One contribution can be traced directly to the influence of two priests who came to national fame in 1973, Father Damien Karras and Father Lancaster Marin. I'm, of course, talking about the exorcist.

[Don Stephens]

Mrs. McNeil? Yes. I'm Father Mary.

[Mike Kosper]

Come in.

[Don Stephens]

Thank you. Is Father Karras here? Yes, Father. Father Karras, it's an honor to meet you.

[Mike Kosper]

Father William Friedkin, the director of the film, once said, with the Exorcist, we said what we wanted to say. Neither of us wanted to view it as a horror film. We view it as a film about the mysteries of faith. And I think that's entirely true. The film really is about making sense of faith and doubt in the midst of an encounter with absolute evil, particularly an evil that preyed on children. But it's also true, to borrow a phrase from our sister podcast, be afraid, that the Exorcist managed to scare the hell out of people. Moviegoers fainted, threw up, or went screaming out of the door of the theater into the night. Some theaters regularly called ambulances. Some started handing out barf bags at the door. What's also True is that the spiritual imagination of Christians changed dramatically. Afterwards. The Catholic Church saw a massive uptick in requests for the rite of exorcism, enough so that dioceses across the US had to issue statements assuring people that possession was extremely rare. In evangelical circles, the interest in exorcism and demons also rose, and it was a topic that hadn't been explored much in depth to that point. Inside the movement among Pentecostals, though, there was a more established tradition and set of practices for how to deal with demons. Though they didn't call it exorcism, it was usually called deliverance ministry. Here's one of the pioneers of televangelism, and according to some, a rather notorious one. His name is A.A. allen, and he's leading one of his healing and deliverance services.

[Don Stephens]

Jesus, Lord, you said, you shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. Lord, when I touch her, I'm believing that cancer is going to die. You said, I give you power over all, the power of the enemy over the devil. You shall tread upon scotophans and upon serpents. Now, God, in the name of my son, I come against this foul thing of cancer and Satan. In Jesus name I bind you, you foul devil, tonight. Yes, Lord. I'm through praying. I'm through. That's it. Wait a minute.

[Mike Kosper]

Amen.

[Don Stephens]

God, give her a new heart.

[Mike Kosper]

Allen brought a number of ideas into the mainstream. He attached afflictions to evil spirits. He spoke about a spirit of fear, meaning not simply having a propensity to fear, but being afflicted by a demon that had a kind of expertise in stoking and provoking fear. Similarly, he spoke about all kinds of spirits. Spirit of poverty, spirit of addiction, spirit of infirmity, and the spirit of Jezebel. Along with his deliverance ministry, Allen was a pioneer in a number of prosperity, gospel and televangelism tactics. He sold prayer cloths and anointing oil, sold tent stakes. At one point, he promised that healing was possible to those who would give financial faith gifts and called giving sowing seeds of spiritual freedom. All of this was controversial at the time, as was his arrest in 1955 for driving under the influence. That incident led to him parting ways with the Assemblies of God, his longtime denomination. He continued his ministry independently till 1970, when he died of alcohol poisoning alone in a hotel room. But some of his ideas, much of his language, made its way into evangelical culture in the next two decades. Derek Prince, a British pastor in the charismatic movement, popularized techniques similar to Allen, like naming spirits and casting them away.

[Don Stephens]

I also renounce every contact with Satan, with occult power, with secret societies, with anything in Satan's territory. I repent of being on that territory and I turn my back on it now also. Lord, if there's a curse over my life, I thank you that on the cross you were made a curse that I might be redeemed from the.

[Mike Kosper]

Bob Larson, a radio host and self described exorcist, also mirrored some of Alan's style, his flair for drama in his own ministry. In the 1980s, he would cast out demons over the phone on his radio show. More recently, he's been kind of a YouTube sensation where you can see him casting out demons of all sorts, including in this case, the demon of Freemasonry.

[Don Stephens]

Until the Lord comes.

[Mike Kosper]

Who is the chief spirit?

[Don Stephens]

Get your head up and open your eyes. Who is the chief spirit? Who is the ruler of this King Diana.

[Rich Perez]

Freemasonry.

[Mike Kosper]

Freemasonry in Africa? No, picked up here in America.

[Don Stephens]

Yeah.

[Rich Perez]

Her father.

[Don Stephens]

Her father was a Freemason father's father.

[Mike Kosper]

And her father started. And her grandmother, daughter Freemasonry everywhere.

[Don Stephens]

Freemasonry everywhere.

[Mike Kosper]

She's cursed. So you got the blood covetous from Africa, you got the Freemasonry from America. And all of them a Native American.

[Don Stephens]

Oh, a Native American Nazi come out for me.

[Mike Kosper]

But you we all go now, two to the pit.

[Don Stephens]

Say pit, pit. Come out and burn the knee with Jesus.

[Mike Kosper]

Let's all thank the Lord who did this for you. Was it worth driving 4 and a half hours? Regardless of how seriously his followers took him, then or now, it's undeniable that his ministry was resonant with the broader atmosphere, with what the church and the American conscience was up to at the time. Among the most influential outside of charismatic circles, though, was Neil T. Anderson, who embraced belief in spiritual warfare and demonic oppression, but moved away from the idea of specific demons, specific specialties. Anderson's version of spiritual warfare was more for the everyday Christian and more therapeutic in its orientation. I don't even use the word spiritual warfare. I'm not against that, you know, but immediately you're in a certain camp, in certain people's minds, you know, terminologies do that to us. And so all my stuff, you'll see spiritual conflicts or freedom ministries or whatever else, those aren't loaded in people's minds. And freedom is something. What he shares with his predecessors is the sense that there's a regular active battle to be fought between the Christian and the spiritual realm, the demonic realm in particular. But rather than place himself or pastors in a role of unique authority and ability to cast away demons. He argues that the battle with the demonic realm is carried out through prayer, renouncing lies, forgiving others, and embracing the idea of finding your identity in Christ. While on the one hand, Anderson should deserve credit for lowering the temperature on some of the deliverance ministry hysteria that was erupting at the time, on the other he also helped to raise awareness of the spiritual realm more broadly, make it more palatable, and his biblical sensible approach and temperament helped bring these ideas about spiritual warfare into the mainstream. If you want to understand the reach of his influence, look no further than the phrase identity in Christ. As Greg Johnson points out in his book Still Time to Care, the phrase was essentially non existent for evangelical before Neil T. Anderson. Thomas Merton used identity in Christ one time earlier in the 20th century, but it was otherwise virtually non existent in print. However, if you came of age in the church after about 1990, it's been ubiquitous ever since, and that's largely because of Anderson. To be sure, I'm not suggesting Anderson's influence was entirely malign or problematic. Compared to the theatrics of Larson or the hucksterism of Allen, Anderson strikes me as a net positive given the atmospherics of the time. He pointed people to scripture, he centered prayer, he empowered ordinary believers to serve one another when they felt oppressed or afflicted. While I've got my own bones to pick with his theology, I'll save those for another day, and I'd certainly rather have Christians turning to him over Allen or Larson. But my larger point is that his work introduced an amplified awareness of spiritual warfare demonic influence, and did so in a way that was palatable to many evangelicals who might be turned off by other deliverance ministries and yet were intrigued or concerned about the influence of the occult in the supernatural. That influence has particular significance when combined with two related phenomena that were reshaping evangelical life at the same the church growth movement and the charismatic revival. In the late 70s, a number of young leaders who came of age at the dawning of the Jesus People years began planting churches and launching ministries of their own. This is actually a story I told in some detail in an episode of another podcast I hosted, the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. We'll link that episode in the show notes for those who want to hear more about it, but I'll hit a couple of highlights here. First, the late 70s and early 80s saw a massive demographic shift across the United States, where communities began to sort according to affinity Politics and class. At the same time, Donald McGaveran, a former missionary and scholar at Fuller Seminary, began arguing that doing ministry along the lines of affinity was the key to missional success for the future of the church. The result for those who followed his prescriptions included some of the largest churches in the world. These Saddleback, Willow Creek, Harvest, and a generation later, churches like Mars Hill. As these ideas took root in new suburban churches, as they grew bigger and bigger and bigger, it added to the sense that something historic was happening. For many evangelicals who watched the churches they attended explode with growth, it felt like a positive religious shift was taking place in America. In reality, church attendance basically held steady throughout the 70s and 80s, and shifts that Christians observed were less a matter of religious revival and more a matter of religious migration away from the Protestant mainline into more conservative evangelical churches, or away from smaller parish churches into larger affinity based megachurches. But again, perception mattered a lot because it certainly felt like religious renewal was happening. If you belonged to or transitioned to one of these new, large and ever expanding evangelical megachurches. Along with this, you had a charismatic revival. It erupted in several places, one of the most significant being the Anaheim Vineyard in California. Again, this is a story that I've told before, but frankly, I love this clip so much I feel compelled to share it again. Here's John Wimber, one of the founders of the Vineyard, telling the story of the first Sunday the Vineyard experienced a kind of outbreak of charismatic expression. It was Mother's Day 1980, and Wimber had felt compelled through prayer, to invite Lonnie Frisbie, the same Lonnie Frisbee who showed up on Chuck Smith's doorstep about a decade earlier to kickstart the Jesus people movement to come preach. Wimber was anxious about how it would go at first.

[Don Stephens]

Finally, he's giving his testimony and his pathos in it. You know, tiny, weep a little bit and you know, salute a couple times, and he's telling you some great verses and you're laughing and just having a wonderful time. I'm thinking, what was I worried about? This is great, you know, God, you're so good. And then he does the weirdest thing.

[Rich Perez]

I've ever even heard of.

[Don Stephens]

He stops and he says, well, that's it. He said, you know, the church has been offending the Holy Spirit a long time and he's quenched, but he's getting over it and we're going to invite him to come and minister now. Come Holy Spirit and whimmel. The spirit of God comes and people Start fighting. Well, first of all, he says, Everybody 25 years and under, come forward. Well, in our church, that's everybody. They're all coming up there. The next thing I know, people are falling and bouncing in there, and they're laying on the floor and they're talking like turkey. One kid, he falls, and the microphone falls with him. You know, it's laying right in front of his face, and he's speaking in tongues. You know, I mean, I'm not talking about two minutes. I'm talking about 45 minutes. He's talking through that microphone, and we're wading through bodies, you know, trying to.

[Mike Kosper]

Get the impact of the vineyard. Embracing charismatic expression, while not entirely embracing Pentecostal theology and rejecting prosperity theology matters to this larger story. Again, it's this sense that something is happening. God's up to something. Is it revival? Is it the return of Jesus? Was it a prelude to the tribulation or prelude to nuclear apocalypse? Or was it just an elevated awareness of spiritual things because some larger battle was unfolding in the spiritual realm?

[Matthew Taylor]

I think of, like, the US evangelical community in the 1980s, early 90s, as this cauldron of ideas, politics, spirituality, and mobilizing that is amorphous. It's all moving in one direction. It's all moving towards Republican politics and conservatism.

[Mike Kosper]

This is Matthew Taylor, author of the Violent Take it by Force and a scholar at the Institute for Islamic, Christian and Jewish Studies in Baltimore.

[Matthew Taylor]

But there really are these eddies that are going on inside of that that are. They're all kind of attached to something, but they're not all working in tandem.

[Mike Kosper]

I've been describing a number of elements of that mix. And I sat down with Taylor to talk about another one. See Peter Wagner.

[Matthew Taylor]

So Wagner had been a missionary to Bolivia for 15 years. He converted in Colle because he wanted to marry this woman, Doris. And she said, you can't marry me unless you convert and become a missionary. So he converted and became a missionary and spent 15 years with Doris in Bolivia. Came. He did his MA at Fuller first and came back. And he was very into a movement that was very popular at the time, in the 1970s, called church growth. Church Growth was this attempt to take the data of the social sciences, merge that with evangelical theology, and produce growth in churches in movements and missions, attempts overseas. And Wagner was. Was one of the real pioneers and thought leaders in that church growth field. And just to give you a sense of things, I mean, Rick Warren, who writes the Purpose Driven Church and the Purpose Driven Life, did His doctoral dissertation under Wagner at Fuller. So a lot of the ideas behind the megachurch movement, the efforts to do this kind of seeker sensitive style of church that was very popular in the 80s and 90s, was really flowing out of these church growth circles and the principles and ideas that Wagner and others were playing around with. And Wagner, coming back from Bolivia, was very aware of the growth of Pentecostalism in South America. He was not personally charismatic or Pentecostal. In fact, he was kind of antithetical to it early on. But he comes back to Fuller and as he's working on all this church growth stuff, he realizes the Pentecostals and Charismatics are the future of the church. And the first book that he writes after coming back to the States is the Pentecostals are Coming, exclamation point. And so he's really trying to kind of drive this, this idea that we need to be paying more attention to these charismatics.

[Mike Kosper]

One of Wagner's great successes at Fuller came because of a partnership with John Wimber at the Vineyard.

[Matthew Taylor]

Wagner dec invite Wimber in to help co lead a course at Fuller called Signs, Wonders and Church Growth where they're trying to experiment with miracles, experiment with these kind of charismatic ideas in the classroom, and have Wimber kind of teach this next generation of Fuller students how to, how to perform miracles to win over more people to Christianity. And this, the course just goes viral. It's one of the most popular courses Fuller ever has. They are turning away hundreds of students who are trying to get into the course. They had to bar the doors from people trying to audit the course. It was just so exciting and interesting. It's also extremely controversial.

[Mike Kosper]

A few years later, Wagner makes another connection and his work takes a significant turn.

[Matthew Taylor]

This kind of brought Wagner into this world of kind of charismatic practice and he kind of got hooked on it, got addicted to exploring and experimenting. And he really believed that this was going to be the growth edge of the global church of the 21st century, would come out of these especially non denominational charismatics, prismatic spaces that the Vineyard was kind of on the edges of. And in 1989, Wagner meets this woman, Cindy Jacobs, who is even more out there than Wimber. She identifies as a prophet. She is part of this growing movement called Fivefold Ministry or the Apostles and Prophets movement. It's based on Ephesians chapter 4 and this in Ephesians 4, the author of Ephesians lists five ministry gifts that Jesus gives to the church. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. And in these Charismatic circles. There had been a lot of talk for several decades by that point of we need apostles and prophets again. There were apostles and prophets in the early church. We don't have those today. The Holy Spirit is going to commission new apostles and prophets. And so Jacobs and Wagner, they're very into spiritual warfare. They're very in. And I mean, right, this is 1989. The Frank Peretti novels had just come out within the last few years.

[Mike Kosper]

If you don't know who Frank Peretti is, just stick a pin in that name for now. We'll be back to him very shortly.

[Matthew Taylor]

They start experimenting with these ideas of apostles and prophets and spiritual warfare. And they pioneer a whole new paradigm of spiritual warfare that Wagner winds up labeling strategic level spiritual warfare.

[Mike Kosper]

It's not uncommon in evangelical circles to hear people talk about having a prophetic or an apostolic gift. But usually this means the person has a kind of prophetic boldness, or they're apostolic in the sense that they're gifted to start things, to raise up leaders. Maybe they're movement oriented, but for Wagner and Jacobs, they mean something much more direct and literal. What they say as prophets or as apostles, they mean original, new and authoritative revelation from God.

[Matthew Taylor]

And if you have this belief in prophecy and that prophets can see into the supernatural realm, suddenly you're getting much, much more detailed concepts of what these demonic structures are and how to combat them, and the sense that God is revealing new strategies for how the church can move forward. We're not merely looking to the Bible for how to respond to the perils of the day, but there's this access to this kind of revelatory strategy. And that's how a lot of the spiritual warfare movement gets framed, is loosely biblical, but the content itself is being filled in through charismatic revelation. By and large. And then also by experimentation, these church growth ideas are also coming in. And so from Wagner's perspective, he's a very pragmatic thinker and he's like, hey, if it works, do it. The idea is, if you have revelation, if you have prophets, you can go and walk around a city or a region and identify the exact demons who have power over that region. And they love this idea of powers and principalities, this kind of vague phrase that occurs in the book of Ephesians. And Wagner comes to believe that those powers and principalities. He's talking about this in the late 80s, he writes, and he's like, I wonder if we could identify the actual demons that are in power over a territory and then we could take over that territory. If we could get those demons out and identify them, we can get rid of them.

[Mike Kosper]

Jacobs believed these new apostles and prophets could discern specific demonic entities that controlled specific geographic territories and wanted to build this network of prayer warriors who would follow the lead of the apostles and do battle against them. For Wagner, this struck a nerve. It was sort of like the intersection of both his church growth interests, which were all about strategy, affinity and specificity, utilizing technology and data to sharpen that strategy, and the emerging theologies of spiritual warfare, demonology and spiritual leadership.

[Matthew Taylor]

And she founds an organization called Generals of intercession in the 1980s that is trying to do this work of building up intercessory networks based on supernatural revelation to cast out national level demons. And Wagner builds all this together and says that, that right there, that's strategic level spiritual warfare. And if we could get millions of Christians praying at the same time to cast out these territorial spirits, then the church can move forward, then church growth can happen. We will. And this was one of their phrases they really liked. We can conquer spiritual territory. It's a spiritual conception of the world, but it's mapped on to the physical world. It's not like, right, that the demons can control literal territory. And so then they start picking up these ideas of spiritual mapping coming out of South America, and they start saying, well, you could go around and you could actually create a map of your city and identify which demon is over every neighborhood, and then design a strategy of prayer walks and worship gatherings and prayer and intercession to cast out these territorial spirits.

[Mike Kosper]

Now, as somebody who's been around charismatic circles for a long time, there are elements of all this stuff that aren't foreign to me at all. Maybe some of the degree of specificity is. But these are hardly the first people I've heard to claim status as apostles or to be naming demons like this, though they claim it with a weight of authority that later proves problematic. At the same time, there are elements of Wagner's teaching that do strike me as well, really out there. Here's one example.

[Don Stephens]

There is a spirit called a harlot, a principality who dominates nations, who dominates territories, who dominates people groups very, very clearly, to such an extent that she has fornication with kings. I can give you an example of how she does this. Japan is one of the nations of the world which has consciously, openly invited national demonization. The Sun Goddess visits him in person and has sexual intercourse with the Emperor. It's a very, very powerful thing. So the Emperor becomes one flesh with the Sun Goddess and That's an invitation for the Sun Goddess to continue to demonize the, the, the whole nation. Since the, since the night that, that, that the present emperor slept with the Sun Goddess, the stock market in Japan.

[Mike Kosper]

Has gone down downstream of this story in present day. There's much to say about what this movement has evolved into, and again, I promise we'll get there. But for now, I just want to throw it into the spiritual mix that I'm describing that's emerging in the 1980s. One more example of church movements and theological innovations that seem to be an attempt to re enchant the world, to take good and evil, the Holy Spirit, Satan, demons, seriously. Almost all of these stories I'm describing are merging in Southern California, and they're all somewhat interconnected. At the other end of the country, in the Bible Belt, another story is unfolding at the same time. Some described it as the battle for the Bible. Some described it as a hostile takeover. One thing we know with certainty now is that it was also a haven for some real evil, which operated not in graveyards or in secret tunnels under daycares, but just behind the veneer of pastoral respectability. That story when we come back. Hey, we hope you are enjoying the show. Just so you know, the best way to contribute to the production of this podcast is actually by subscribing to Christianity Today using our special link. OrderCT.com DeepBlueSea Listeners like you get 25% off your subscription and unlimited access to the platform that elevates the stories and ideas of the Kingdom of God. That's orderct.com deepbluec all one word. We look forward to having you join us. So if you grew up in the Southern Baptist convention in the 1990s or were a pastor during or in the early 2000s, there's an origin story that you've probably heard a million times. It starts with a teenage Paige Patterson. He's getting ready to graduate high school. It's the 1960s, and his dad pulls him aside and gives him a warning about what he's likely to encounter when he gets to school. Son, he said, there's going to be a great day of reckoning in the SBC someday. He was referring to the gap the younger Patterson was about to encounter between the values and beliefs of his local SBC church and those of the Baptist school he was about to enter. While the vast majority of the SBC's local congregations were very conservative, many of the denomination's institutions, its colleges, seminaries, its missionary agencies, its activist elements, they were more moderate, and they were drifting away from their conservative roots. This bothered Paige Patterson, as it did many Baptists. These institutions were funded from tithe money, and those tithes are overwhelmingly coming from churches whose beliefs were simply not in alignment with the denomination's various entities. This was still in Patterson's mind years later when he was a student at New Orleans Seminary. He's up late one night, it's 1967, he's studying, and there's a knock at the door. It's a stranger, a big time donor to the seminary known as Judge Paul Pressler. Here's Robert Downing, currently a reporter for the Texas Tribune and previously was one of the reporters that contributed to the Houston Chronicles massive expose of sexual abuse in the SBC back in 2019.

[Rich Perez]

So Pressler was born in Houston into an oil rich family. I believe his father was the first vice president of ExxonMobil. I'm sitting in Austin right now, a few blocks away from Pressler Boulevard. You know, the University of Texas Austin Law School is named after Pressler's grandfather. You know, this was a really, you know, among the closest things that Texas had to aristocracy was, you know, families like the Presslers.

[Mike Kosper]

Pressler had graduated from law school and entered politics, serving in the Texas State House. He later served in a variety of political appointment positions, including as an appeals judge. He was at Patterson's door because he wanted to bring about the very day of reckoning that Patterson's father had told him about years before.

[Rich Perez]

He and Patterson met in 1967 for the first time at this meeting that has kind of gone down in Baptist history at the Cafe Du Monde in New New Orleans, where, you know, they apparently both for the first time met a like minded individual who understood the threats that was being posed to the SBC by liberalism and, you know, all of these other forces. And so for the next 13 years, the two men really kept in close contact. Patterson was kind of the face of the movement. But, you know, Pressler was always in Houston, you know, helping coordinate it and really just mo like, you know, spending years going around the country recruiting pastors and trying to get people to buy into this idea that the SBC had been, you know, secretly taken over by liberals and that they needed to fight for literally the Bible.

[Mike Kosper]

So 12 years go by. It's 1979. In the intervening years, they've built alliances, they've strategized, they focused their message down to essentially one key idea, the inerrancy of the Bible. Now they want all kinds of other stuff. But as Patterson Would later say, if they tried to get everything, they'd get nothing. So make the whole fight about the battle for the Bible. Make inerrancy the no compromise issue across the entire convention. Then Pressler can mobilize his political machine inside the denomination. And it's entirely focused on the presidential election because the president controls the committees, and the committees control the boards of the institutions. Get the right president, someone who's able to be a firebrand, make the fight about the right things, you can remake the convention. Their choice to run for president was the pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis, Tennessee, Adrian Rogers. He was widely liked, already had a national platform, had a stellar reputation, a big church, and, well, just listen to that voice.

[Don Stephens]

Suppose some little old preacher comes out, gives a book review, some soliloquy on something. The choir sings something in Latin, sounds like a couple of calves dying in a hailstorm. The people are sitting there like cigar store Indians. That man can hardly wait to get out of there. But you, like a choir, come into that service and with a face like the noonday sun, begin to praise the king of heaven. Let the man of God stand behind the desk of God and open the book of God and preach the Christ of God and the power of God, and let the people of God say amen. Those people will look around, that man will look around at those people and you'll say, those folks believe that stuff. Before long, he'll be believing it too.

[Mike Kosper]

Rogers won with a vote of 51%, and the Conservative resurgence was off to the races. Not that it was simple, and it certainly wasn't accomplished overnight. It would actually take nearly two decades to remake the denomination in the image that Patterson and Pressler had in mind. And the old guard wasn't going anywhere without a fight. For example, in 1984, it was being framed, even by the modern in the convention, as a holy war. This is actually the convocation speech from that year delivered by President Roy Honeycutt at the flagship Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. And that I should be either so.

[Don Stephens]

Bold or presumptuous today as to suggest holy war as an analogy for our current struggle grows out of my conviction that unholy forces are at work in our midst. Forces which, if left unchecked, will destroy.

[Mike Kosper]

The essential quality of both our convention and this seminary. Huntingcutt was able to hang on for a few more years. But despite the war cry, the conservative resurgence rolled on. And by 1993, he'd been replaced with the 33 year old Dr. Albert Moore. While a great Deal separates this world and its battles from those described earlier in the episode. A common thread between them is this sense that a movement's time had come. A sense of brinksmanship, of war, of eternal significance. Baptists feared they were losing something they loved, not just their institutions, but the Bible itself. So as a result, inside the sbc, when the dust settled, Paul Pressler and Paige Patterson were heroes. Patterson would go on to lead several different institutions before being installed as the president of Southwestern Seminary in Fort Worth. Pressler got active in national and Texas politics again and remained a kind of kingmaker inside the sbc. They both ended up immortalized in the stained glass on the Southwestern Seminary chapel's windows. Pressler saw the victory as historic, though his choice of metaphor is certainly cringeworthy.

[Don Stephens]

It was like Gettysburg, but this time the right side won't.

[Mike Kosper]

He enjoyed hero status, at least for a while. And there was a moment when it appeared that Pressler might play a larger role in national politics. But it was mysteriously short lived. During the 1988 election, Pressler mobilized evangelical support for George H.W. bush. His loyalty earned him nomination to the newly created Office of government ethics in 1989. This would have been a major win for the religious right. But soon after Pressler abruptly withdrew. Pressler cited family concerns and other surfaced concerns about potential financial misconduct. But years later, a personal letter from Paige Patterson surfaced suggesting that the real reason was allegations of homosexuality. Behind that story was a number of others which would take years before they could fully surface.

[Rich Perez]

Now what's really interesting is that the entire time that Pressler and Patterson were plotting this takeover, the sbc, Pressler was a Baptist, basically in name only. I mean, he retained a membership at Second Baptist Church in Houston, but really had stopped going there since I believe the early 60s after a fight with one of the other prominent families there. He was actually a youth group leader at a Presbyterian church in Houston for most of those years. And you know, I've gone through his archives, I've seen just there are folders and folders and folders related to his time with that youth group. It was, it was a huge part of his life. You know, he described it in his book as the most joyous time in his life. And then the way he frames that is they're approaching 1979, 1980, and he and Paige Patterson, you know, there's the SBC's annual meeting is in Houston that year. And they think that this is kind of, you know, it's on Pressler's home turf. It's a Good time for them to strike. They feel like the time is now for them to really just set in motion, you know, the first stages of the conservative resurgence. What Southern Baptists didn't know until recently when it came out, you know, in our reporting and court records, is that Pressler's foray back into Southern Baptist life was only a few months after he was chased out of that Presbyterian church as a youth group leader, because the youth there came to church leaders with, quote, an alleged incident. A man has since come forward and said that Pressler molested him in a sauna. So really, I think that, you know, lacking in some of the conversations about the SBC abuse crisis and the way in which the conservative resurgence kind of lionized certain to the point that they could, you know, really play key roles in maintaining that the abuse crisis continued is the fact that literally one of the founders of the movement that they herald, the conservative resurgence, was just chased out of a church for allegedly molesting a child months before the beginning of this, quote, unquote, battle for the Bible.

[Mike Kosper]

That was far from the last allegation that would emerge about Pressler.

[Rich Perez]

I think you really have to start with Dwayne Rollins, who in 2017 filed a lawsuit against Pressler alleging that Pressler had, you know, raped him repeatedly, beginning at 14 and continuing through his adult life. So Dwayne alleged in this lawsuit that, you know, the abuses had kind of pushed him into a lifelong addictions, lifelong drink, alcoholism, and that he had kind of used those things to suppress the memories while also being kind of held in a sort of like, Stockholm syndrome because of what he says were Pressler's assurances that his abuses were sanctioned by God and that no one could ever find out about that. And so Dwayne spent most of his adult life in prison until about 2016, when he had an outcry statement to a prison psychiatrist. He described it to me one time as, like, my entire life. It's like, there's a box up on the top shelf of my closet, and I've always known that it's there. I don't want to open it, so I'm just going to pretend I don't really see it. And then, like, one day you go to pull something off the. Off the shelf, and then something else falls, and the thing falls and hits you in the head and the contents spill out, and just everything made sense.

[Mike Kosper]

Duane had a long rap sheet, making some journalists connected to the story hesitant to cover it. But Robert stumbled across information that changed his own perspective on the case.

[Rich Perez]

Just through a stroke of luck one night I was working at the Houston Chronicle and happened to be on the federal court registry when I saw that there was a new update the case. And I was like, oh, I recognize that name, and opened up the lawsuit. And one of the first things I found was a $450,000 assault lawsuit settlement that Dwayne and Pressler had struck in 2004. And so that kind of gave a lot more, you know, raised more questions about his lawsuit.

[Mike Kosper]

At the time, he was investigating a broader story about sexual abuse in the sbc, a story that would eventually be published as a landmark expose in the Houston Chronicle. Accounting for two decades of abuse and cover up.

[Rich Perez]

Like, okay, if there's some validity to his claims of abuse, like, how much validity is there to the. To his other claims that, you know, prominent Southern Baptist leaders and churches enabled or concealed Pressler's abuse? And so that was really the beginning of our reporting. And since then, you know, Dwayne's lawsuit has, you know, was ongoing the entire time that we were reporting on this. You know, I believe it was a. Ended up being almost a six year lawsuit. And as part of that lawsuit, there were numerous other men that came forward, some alleging that Pressler had tried to solicit them to go naked hot tubbing, others alleging that he had, you know, cornered them in a sauna and groped their genitals. There was a case in 2003 where a young man came forward and said that he was at Pressler's house one night and Pressler had. Dad continued to ask him over and over and over again to, like, get naked. That was kind of Pressler's M.O. was to tell people like, oh, you know, you one day I'm going to take you to Europe, and you got to get used to being nude in public, because that's how it is in Europe. And then that would graduate to massages, and then kind of that's how he would start to groom and eventually abuse most of these. Almost all, I believe all of them were young, young men at the time, except with the exception of Dwayne. But, you know, there was a case in 2003 where this young man says that Pressler basically continued to pressure him to get naked one night at their house when no one else is there, including making him pray together naked, during which he said, I believe Pressler started to kind of make his moves on him. And then after the young man kind of made it clear that he was uncomfortable, he went to go inside and put his swim trunks back on, and Pressler asked for a hug and ripped the man's. You know, ripped the man's shorts down and, like, groped him. And that allegation was brought to leaders of First Baptist Church of Houston at the time. And they, a small group there, looked into it, decided it was kind of a he said, she said situation, but also wrote a letter to Pressler after concluding their investigation that effectively said, you know, we find what you were doing morally and spiritually wrong, and you can't ever do that again. However, you mean so much to the Southern Baptist Convention and this church that publicizing this allegation would be too harmful to those things. And so it's another instance in which Pressler's stature within the conservative resurgence and within politics and judicial and religious circles really was the way that he continued to evade any kind of accountability despite years and years and years of abuses. You know, there were other cases where a young Houston Baptist University student who said that he started having panic attacks and tried to commit suicide and eventually left ministry altogether because of Pressler's advances. There's another story that a personal aide of his wrote in a letter to Pressler's family, I believe, in 2017, warning them explicitly that Paul is a pedophile, and talking about how he had seen Pressler basically take in this young man who was basically homeless and kind of hold that over the man's head for what the aide alleged was abuse. And then he also alleged that Presser talked about swimming naked with young boys. Really, he had a very specific way that he would go about a lot of these things. He would often entice young men into his life by talking about all the important people he knew. I'll bring you to Council for National Policy. I'll get you into cnp. I'll get you a clerkship there, and then just kind of use that prestige in all of these different worlds to lure young men in. And we ultimately, there have been about abuses that span about 40 years, beginning with that first molestation at a Presbyterian Church in 1978 and continuing through as late as 2017. And those run everything from, you know, rape to solicitations to groping to, you know, really just all sorts of misconducts.

[Mike Kosper]

I asked Robert why he thought this kind of behavior could be displayed by one of the SBC's most influential power players for so many years without it ever catching up with him.

[Rich Perez]

I think that key to his ascendancy in the Southern Baptist Convention was this idea that, like, he was one of the Saviors of the Bible like that. Not just that the people that they disagreed with, they disagreed with, but that they were threats to Christianity in America. And if America falls, then the whole global church will fall. And, you know, really just was pumping all of this existential dread into the faithful and sbc, the conservatives. And I think that that really gave him a lot of power.

[Mike Kosper]

Sarah Pulliam Bailey, a religion reporter who you met in episode one, says that this is a pattern that she sees time and again. I see it especially in the evangelical world. Not only in the evangelical world, you see this in a lot of religious communities where charismatic leaders will rise up. And there are certain restrictions placed particularly around women, whether it's in leadership or not. But you see this in Orthodox Jewish communities or in conservative Mormon communities, conservative Muslim communities, where restrictions are placed on certain individuals in the community, but then also simultaneously rules around what they're allowed to do, what they're not allowed allowed to do. And this isn't specific to women's ordination. That's an example of it. But often, simultaneously, there is usually a man who's rising up and taking a charismatic position. It relates to the larger story the Chronicle published about abuse in the sbc. It's not that there's a criminal conspiracy to facilitate abuse, but there's this toxic collision between powerful men, grateful supporters, and a culture that doesn't actually take abuse too seriously. It results in a kind of fraternal bro code that actually enables this kind of predatory behavior. And it led to all manner of abuse in the sbc.

[Rich Perez]

If you really go back, you know, into the Baptist press articles, you will find substantial warnings about the prevalence of SBC abuses dating back to the late 80s. I mean, when the Catholic Church scandal broke, the SBC, or at least many leaders of it, opted to frame the abuse crisis in the Catholic Church as blaming it on their celibacy requirements, blaming it on, you know, their theology, blaming it on all sorts of things. And because of that, they were able to kind of pretend themselves immune from this problem, even as other denominations, including the Catholics, adopted reforms to protect children. You know, there's a letter that we wrote about that was sent by Thomas Doyle, who was a high ranking Catholic whistleblower in the 80s and 90s. And his experiences with abuse victims in the Catholic Church prompted him to leave and become an advocate for abuse survivors. And he wrote a letter to the executive committee chairman, Frank Page, and basically told him, you know, I have worked with the survivors in your denomination. I have seen a lot in there. And I'm telling you that your crisis is just as bad as ours, and you have to do something about it. And the response was, yet again, local church autonomy.

[Mike Kosper]

Patterson and Pressler's role in this is significant because their contributions to the conservative resurgence are what enabled or incentivized others to look the other way at abuses or mishandling. You were either so grateful for their contributions that you didn't want to cross them, or you feared their power and influence. But for Pressler and Patterson, eventually their behavior did catch up to them. For Patterson, it was not about his personal behavior, but about how he responded to abuses of women.

[Rich Perez]

The first example that sticks out to me is a rather famous one in SBC world, which is the case of David Darrell Gilliard, who was a protege of Paige Patterson. And throughout the late 80s, Gilliard, while still kind of working as Patterson's protege, was I believe, chased out of at least three or four churches in three states for sexual misconduct allegations, including at one church, I think, I believe more than two dozen women accused him. And Patterson, you know, continued to stick up for him, continued to pressure other pastors to not say anything, to, to let him be rehabilitated. And Gilliard eventually moved to Florida, and 15 years later, you know, was arrested for sex crimes with children. And lawsuits we found, also found, you know, a horrific line of other things that he committed while he was in Florida, including, you know, a lawsuit that alleged that he impregnated a woman who he was counseling after the death of her husband. And not consensually. That's just one of the examples. But I think the, the bigger issue here is that the sbc, because it has for so long, or it had for so long refused to do any kind of record keeping, refused to do, you know, have really any kind of universal standards for ordination really to contribute to this problem. You know, the, the way that you get ordained in an SBC church sometimes is just to convince a small group of people that you've been called by God. You know, you do a six month pastoral training or something, and then all of a sudden you are a pastor, and then you can take that credential to the bigger church down the road, the bigger church after that, and just continue to climb your way through this SBC ecosystem. And it really is kind of a perfect environment for a sexual predator who is looking for a place where they can move frequently and lean on forgiveness and repentance and kind of stuff like that to maybe evade being reported to the police.

[Mike Kosper]

This reckoning for Patterson and Pressler didn't begin until around 2017 and 2018, respectively. It's been met at times with a backlash, a harsh resistance from loyalists to them. Just as the Houston chronicle account of 20 years of abuse and cover up was met with skepticism and accusations of bias. Here's Sarah again. Well, especially in, it's funny in, you know, Protestant, evangelical, you know, sort of non Catholic world, like, we don't have a pope, we don't have a king. And yet these little king makers, you know, create these little communities. And I think Pressler and Patterson, like, built the, you know, little kingdoms or they, you know, they took over a kingdom, I guess, and then created so many followers, people who were so, like, loved what they had done and really deeply appreciated. You know, so many people in Southern Baptist seminaries today are like, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for, you know, them. But what is happening in your own community, like, what is happening in your own church? We see it over and over again. It's the lack of accountability, the lack of transparency. People have been able to hide so much for so long. This reckoning for Patterson and pressler began in 2017 and 2018. It's been met at times with a backlash, a harsh resistance from loyalists, just as the Houston chronicle account of 20 years of abuse and cover up was also met with skepticism and accusations of bias. Recently, a Department of justice investigation into the SBC and its executive leadership, which was triggered in part by the Chronicle's reporting, ended without any federal criminal charges. And some critics of the Chronicle's reporting, defenders of the SBC and Patterson loyalists, have taken a kind of victory lap. However, a number of legal experts, close watchers of the cases, including many survivor advocates, say that this result is actually no surprise at all. What's been alleged time and again doesn't amount to a federal crime. No one was alleging, for instance, an interstate criminal conspiracy of trafficking, rocketeering. Instead, the COVID up that has been alleged and the crimes underneath it, many of which have resulted in investigations and charges at the state and local level, is much more like the Catholic clergy abuse scandal that preceded it, a scandal that also never resulted in federal charges. What seems in evidence based on the SBC's own internal review, also known as the Guidestone Report, and in reporting from outlets like the Houston Chronicle, Christianity Today, Baptist Press, and many more, is that there was a culture that prioritized protecting the convention's image and in the case of Pressler, protecting the founding myth of the conservative resurgence over protecting victims and holding perpetrators accountable. I want to include this story in the mix as we seek to make sense of the Satanic panic for two critical reasons. First, because the primary allegation of the panic, that there's a secret battle between good and evil just beneath the surface of our culture, advantaged the conservative research resurgence. I'm not suggesting they deliberately perpetuated that myth, and certainly not that they were falsifying things about Satanism at the time. Instead, I'm just pointing out that it was a convenient myth to have in the atmosphere as they were trying to remake the convention. Second, and more importantly, it's that Paul Pressler reminds us, as so many predators do, that they don't show up at our doors in hoods and rain robes, skinning cats and burning black candles. They're far more likely to be someone we trust, a youth leader, a Sunday school teacher, a respected community leader, or anyone close to us who's willing to leverage trust for malicious ends. If we've learned anything from our attention economy in the past few years, it's that attention is a finite commodity. We only have so much of it to give. Could a little less command conspiratorial thinking and a little more attention on Paul Pressler by someone, anyone? Could it have saved a few of his victims? We'll be right back.

[Don Stephens]

Hello, I'm Russell Moore. If you care about current events and breaking news, join Mike Kosper, Clarissa Mull and me every week, week on the Bulletin, a podcast from Christianity Today. Every Tuesday, we dive deep into a headline that has people talking. And each Friday we sit down roundtable style to talk with leaders, authors and political figures about breaking news and current events from a Christian perspective, offering new ways to think about the issues that we face as a nation and as believers. Join the Conversation every week on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And follow the Bulletin on substack for all the latest on our show.

[Mike Kosper]

The various traditions and denominations I've described here were very different in many ways. They were pursuing very different ends through their movements. But there were some issues that united them. Their posture towards politics, towards the sexual revolution, towards gay rights and abortion, towards communism, even. Another thing that united them was a shared suspicion of pop culture, especially rock and roll. Now, of course, preaching against the dangers of rock and roll is nothing new. For instance, here's a pastor named Jimmy Snow. In the early 1960s, these men come.

[Don Stephens]

Down here from New York and from Florida to find out my reasons on rock and roll music and why I preach against it. And I believe with all of my heart that it is a contributing factor to our juvenile delinquency of today. I 100% believe it. Why I believe that is because I know how it feels when you sing it. I know what it does to you and I know the evil feeling that you feel when you sing it. I know the loss position that you get into in the beat. Well, if you talk to the average teenager of today and you ask them what it is about rock and roll music that they like and they'll the first thing they'll say is the beat. The beat.

[Mike Kosper]

For Snow, he was preaching against the kind of dangerous rock and roll popularized by people like his father, country music legend Hank Snow.

[Don Stephens]

Chubby, if you remember the introduction.

[Mike Kosper]

That.

[Don Stephens]

Big eight wheels are rolling down the track means it's a loving daddy ain't comin back till I leave it all.

[Mike Kosper]

Now perhaps this whole sermon is part of some family drama. Or perhaps for Jimmy to become a preacher against rock and roll was his version of teenage rebellion. And to be fair to him, some people out there were genuinely scandalized by Elvis Presley's hips, the Everly Brothers keeping little Susie out past curfew, and whatever the heck Little Richard was singing in Tutti Frutti. But by the 1980s, it's fair to say that rock and roll had given Christians a bit more to worry. For Jimmy Snow, there was something fundamentally evil about the beat. That is not just the lyrics, it's the music itself. One popular Christian critic of rock music, Jerry Johnston, had his theory as to why that might be the case.

[Don Stephens]

One Bible scholar said Lucifer was not just a musician. He was music in himself. He could break into a sound that would resemble that of a thousand perfectly coordinated orchestra. And isn't it interesting? There is a category of music today that has lyrics that are pro Satan lyrics that are saying something like this, it's okay. Lyrics that chant sayings that others have later said. I started chanting that listening to it. I got into the groove of it. Whether it's Venom or Megadeth or Slayer or whoever it may be.

[Mike Kosper]

Johnston partnered with Geraldo to produce this document.

[Don Stephens]

Sean Sellers lived In Oklahoma City 17 years of age. He does something one night that is a little abrupt. It is stunning and shocking. And later he will become known as the youngest man in the state of Oklahoma to end up on death row. According to Sean, he goes into his bedroom and turns the lights off. He then goes to one section of his bedroom and in his words, he bows down in front of what has been a homemade altar. On the altar are all types of decorative Pieces that have an emblem on them. There's the graffiti, there's the other statements and the 666, etc. Sean says with the lights off, he then takes something and starts to erase what was a pentagram that had been emblazoned on his chest. You might recall teenager, that a pentagram is a five star or a five pointed star in the center of a circle. In satanic circles, this star is to refer to and represent the power that Satan is able to give to anyone who comes to him. Sean makes a prayer, he says he invites Satan to control him. And then he does something that is stunning. As a 17 year old young man, he walks into his parents bedroom, they're sleeping, he pulls out a gun, points it straight at them and he kills them both. In his words, he left the home that night and went to the house of his friend. He spent the night. The next day Sean says he's going back home and he walks in the house and there's a deaf silence in the house. He makes his way up to his parents bedroom and says he is somewhat stunned and shocked to find his parents dead and says he really didn't even know that he did it.

[Mike Kosper]

Johnston partnered with Geraldo to produce this documentary warning parents about the dangers of rock music. In this story, there's a kind of theory of evil at work here and I think it traces back to Manson. Actually when those murders happened, so many people looked at the Manson girls who appeared so normal, who had had such normal seeming backgrounds and wondered how could they participate in mass murder. Blame was assigned to LSD and other drugs and to mind control techniques on the part of Manson. And of course, Manson himself referenced hidden messages in the Beatles White Album as part of his own motivation. Even to this day. As recently as a couple of weeks ago, the Joe Rogan podcast, one of the most popular shows in the world, featured a guest named Ian Carroll who was flirting with conspiracy theories about mind control, the CIA and Manson as some kind of plant. Christians and concerned parents were put on alert. Point being that this many years later, we still look at this story and want a more clear explanation to how it could have happened. What we learned from the story for sure is that consciousness is fragile. It can be manipulated, overwhelmed, even taken over, perhaps by a cult leader, perhaps by demons.

[Don Stephens]

Several months ago, in response to the teenagers that came to my assembly, the Lord put a burden on my heart to write a book about the teenage Satanist movement. So for the last number of months, we started crisscrossing America. A researcher and myself, and we started talking to people. We went to Chicago and sat down with Dr. Braun, who is an expert at what is called multiple personalities. And that is a secular world's definition of what we call demon possession. Those of us who believe this book. And as we went to city after city, one thing that was quite conspicuous was there were some people who at certain points, because of a variety of reasons, had turned their life over to the enemy.

[Mike Kosper]

Part of what fascinates me about this period is how consistently we see evil externalized. It's something we give ourselves over to, something that seduces us. And rock music by this time, had long been an object of suspicion. One of the obsessions during these years was backmasking, recording audio and then weaving it backwards into the mix of a song. The technique starts back in the 60s, and the Beatles made it famous with their 1966 B side Rain. Jimi Hendrix used it too, on Castles Made of Sand. Again, that sound you hear is a guitar that was recorded while the track was playing backwards. Once listeners knew how to identify back masking, they started trying to discern what had been recorded, or if it was a voice, what was being said. One famous example was from the Beatles Revolution 9 on the White Album. Here's how the track opens.

[Don Stephens]

Number nine, number nine, number nine, number nine.

[Mike Kosper]

Listeners heard the back masking on a guitar and wondered if it was a clue to anything else that might be back masked. When you reverse the track, you hear this. Actually, if you were sitting in your Dorm Room in 1969 trying to do this, reversing it at full speed would be really difficult. So you'd probably end up spinning the record just a little bit slower and it would sound like this. Did you hear anything that time? If you didn't, just hang on a sec. Because this is actually a nice case study and how conspiracy thinking works. There was this real tinfoil hat conspiracy theory that emerged in the 60s that Paul McCartney had actually died in 1965 or 1966 in a car crash, and that he was replaced by a lookalike who I suppose was just as great of a musician and songwriter as Paul. And the band was somehow contractually obligated to keep going. But they wanted fans to know the truth. So how do they do that? They sneak messages into the songs. Supposedly, John whispers, I buried Paul at the end of Strawberry Fields. Now, John claims that he said, cranberry sauce. Here it is a bit more isolated, and if we do a little audio magic, even more isolated. Anyway, you can decide for yourself what you're hearing. But on Revolution 9, conspiracy minded folks claimed that they heard a subliminal message referencing Paul's death. They say, the voice is saying, turn me on, dead man. And I wouldn't be surprised if you hear that now, too. The question is, did you hear it because it's there? Perhaps because the Beatles had this prankster mentality and might have wanted to play up the rumor because it's funny? Or is there nothing there at all and people are making something out of that Nothing. Backmasking controversies took on a whole new energy with concerns about Satanism. And a popular target of scrutiny was Led Zeppelin. In particular, there's a section of Stairway to Heaven where some have claimed to discover backmasking, though the band has always explicitly denied that they did any. Here it is played forward.

[Don Stephens]

If there's a bustle in your headroom, don't be alone there. It's just, yes, stay Sprinkle for the make Queen. Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road.

[Mike Kosper]

Now if you just turn this off and go to listen to Led Zeppelin 4 right now, I would totally respect that. But let's hear the section backwards, slightly slowed down. I'm just gonna play the first part of this and you tell me what you hear here. Remember, it's 1971. You're in your dorm room, it's late at night. Okay, here we go. Did you hear it? All right, hang on. Let's do it one more time. Well, let's hear what Paul and Jan crouch here when it's played backward to them on TBN in 1983.

[Don Stephens]

I heard something there. All right, listen for I Live with Satan. Exactly.

[Rich Perez]

You might want to turn it up just a little out here on the floor.

[Don Stephens]

I live with Satan.

[Rich Perez]

Listen again.

[Don Stephens]

Okay? Somebody in the audience heard that. All right, now let's let get that vote on videotape here. How many actually heard that?

[Mike Kosper]

So obviously you can't see that, but most of the hands in the studio go up now. In fact, if you poke around online, you'll find there's a whole school of debate about all of this, about what's in there. What are they actually saying? What are they not saying? Whether or not the entire verse is an ode to, say, Clayton, Jimmy Page, Led Zeppelin's lead guitar player and in many ways, the mastermind of their sound, really. The guy who definitely would have known if they had done backmasking on this thing. He had a response to this accusation that I think every musician can resonate with.

[Don Stephens]

And so then they started to play back all manner of records. And of course we were going to be main candidates for it. Somebody said, oh, it says my sweet Satan in it. I could gosh, it's hard enough writing the music one way around rather than.

[Mike Kosper]

There's a neurological phenomenon known as paria, where the brain wants to make meaning out of stimuli, where meaning or patterns don't actually exist. Now, this manifests in all kinds of ways. Seeing faces in clouds, or seeing the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich, or hearing voices in white noise and static, or hearing a bunch of encoded Satan messages and Led Zeppelin in spite of the fact that the band says that they aren't there. Consider this. One way backmasking should work is that once it's reversed, it shouldn't be too hard to discern. For instance, if I said, you'd probably notice, that is backwards. My point is that when someone uses back masking, what you hear sounds like this. And then when you reverse it, you hear this. Now you can hear it just fine. Backmasking doesn't create audio that's garbled, difficult to discern. Now, perhaps that's another layer of what Led Zeppelin was doing, but again, Jimmy Page says it wasn't happening. In the end, backmasking probably has less in common with something like mind control and more in common with something like ghost hunting, which is a Pareidolia smorgasbord. Ghost hunters put out tons of mics and tons of cameras and they capture all this information, audio, video, weird spectral light, strange microphones to get strange frequencies. And the result is just a ton of data and a ton, frankly, of noise. And in that noise, ghost hunters often find something to hang their hat. The question is whether they've encountered the paranormal or they've encountered pareidalia. And so maybe a lot of the hunt for subliminal messages in music was really just that, a kind of spiritualized ghost hunt. Which really starts to look silly when you realize that if you're looking for anti Christian, pagan or blasphemous messages inside rock and roll, it's not hard to find it because, well, it never was hidden elsewhere else. Whether it's AC DC or Lil Nas X toying with satanic imagery, or it's the highly sexualized music of Warrant or Cardi B, there's plenty out there that's objectionable to Christians that's right in front of our faces. What I'm starting to wonder then is if the conspiracies aren't a reward in themselves. The idea that there's a hidden arsenal of messages out there, or to go back to Jimmy Snow, the idea that there's something inherently corrupting about the music itself. These are comforting in a level. For one thing, as parents, it gives us something to do. Parents often feel overwhelmed and perplexed at how to help and to protect our kids. At least this feels empowering because we can, at minimum, keep the stuff out of our homes. But I actually think that's less important than this. All of the conspiracies, for that matter, the whole approach to demonology and deliverance ministries, the emphasis on the spiritual warfare aspects of the Christian life, One of the things it does is it kind of externalizes evil. Evil becomes something out there which we have to resist letting in. If we do let it in, there's one level in which we're doomed because now it can possess us. But in the larger sense, we're actually kind of liberated. The evil that turns nice kids into Manson Family members is out there somewhere. It's not actually sleeping in the next room. So our job then as parents or as Christians, is just to figure out how we bar the door. We want to believe that the kind of evil that can drive a child to murder their parents or a parent to harm, harm their children, or perhaps could allow a respected religious leader to abuse young men and boys for decades, or allow a person in power to look the other way when a child is being harmed in the next room. The kind of evil that turns a nice girl from the suburbs into the kind of person that would help restrain Sharon Tate while she's being brutally murdered. We want to externalize it. Say it lives in demons, or in demons, demonic rock and roll, or in shaggy haired social outliers that form cults. Or maybe it's the drugs, or maybe it's the Smurfs, the magic eight ball, the crystals, the candles. We want to find the demon, name it, condemn it, and cast it out into the wilderness. It's a story as ancient as time for us, that's somehow more comforting than the idea that human beings who are made in the image of God are fallen and actually have a stunning capacity for evil as well. I don't say this to diminish the prospect of the demonic, because I certainly think that it plays a role here. But I think we need to recognize that in this story, demons are often playing the role of the scapegoat. As Alexander Solzhenitsyn put it, the line between good and evil runs right through the center of the human heart. And that fact confronts us with the reality that our capacity for evil is much greater than we think. Maybe hell's bells aren't a sound that's coming from ACDC or Slayer. Maybe it isn't somewhere out there at all. Maybe those bells are ringing in our living rooms, our heads, our hearts. That's where we'll look in our next episode of Devil and the Deep Blue Sea. Devil in the Deep Blue Sea is a production of Christianity Today. It's hosted and written by Mike Kosper, produced by Mike Kosper and Rebecca Sebastian with production assistants from Dawn Adams Sound design and mix engineering by TJ Hester Sound design, animation and video by Steve Scheidler Graphic Design Nim Ben Rubin, Eric Petrick and Mike Kosper are executive producers of CT Media Podcasts. Matt Stevens is our senior producer. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating and review wherever you are. It'll help more people find the show. Thanks for listening.