Podcast Summary: "Survivors & Abuse Continued: Rachel Denhollander on Faith and Accountability"

Podcast: Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, CT Media
Host: Mike Cosper
Guest: Rachel Denhollander
Date: November 13, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features a candid, in-depth conversation between host Mike Cosper and attorney, advocate, and survivor Rachel Denhollander. As the first woman to publicly accuse Larry Nassar in the USA Gymnastics abuse scandal, Denhollander brings expertise and hard-won insight to the ongoing issues of abuse within institutions—especially faith communities. The conversation interrogates the aftermath of the 1980s Satanic Panic, the long-term impact on survivors, the challenges facing abuse victims today, and the church’s responsibility in the face of evil “in its own pews.” Central themes include survivor advocacy, legal and spiritual accountability, ritual and religiously justified abuse, and how hysteria and panic can distract from hidden, pervasive evil.

Major Discussion Points and Insights

The Cost and Reality of Coming Forward as an Abuse Survivor

• Obstacles for Victims:
  • Profound legal, social, and emotional barriers for survivors disclosing abuse; most reports are true, yet few result in convictions.
    • "Between 92 to 98% of allegations of sexual assault are real... the average age of disclosure for childhood sexual assault is actually well into adulthood." (Rachel, 04:25)
  • Society and legal systems often fail even when there is overwhelming evidence or confessions.
  • Emotional toll of public disclosure—loss of privacy, community suspicion, and even exploitation by others.
    • "Disclosing sexual assault... invites an audience to the worst sexual experience of your life." (Rachel, 06:12)

The Fine Line Between Awareness and Moral Panic

• Dangers of Panic:
  • Sensationalism and scapegoating (e.g., "Satanic Panic") often distract from more present, close-to-home abuse.
  • Churches obsessed with evil "out there" ignore abuse in their own midst.
    • "While the church was literally panicking about sexual abuse in the graveyard next door, it was happening in the Sunday school classrooms." (Mike, 09:00)
• Healthy Vigilance:
  • Sexual abuse is common; most perpetrators are trusted adults known to the child (80%+).
  • Precise use of terms like "trafficking" and "organized abuse" is crucial to avoid conflation and enable real protection.
    • "Childhood sexual abuse is nowhere near as rare as we want it to be... It's happening all the time." (Rachel, 10:35)

The Nature and "Organization" of Abuse

• Types of Abuse:
  • Not always a “cabal”; organization can simply be networks or local circles, often family or community-based.
    • "Crime in the sexual abuse realm... works like crime everywhere else does.” (Rachel, 13:40)
  • Exchange is not always financial; often about power and taboo.
  • There are trafficking rings but most abuse is facilitated by close acquaintances.

Trauma, Memory, and Justice

• Memory Dynamics in Trauma:
  • Trauma fragments memory, complicating reports and testimony.
    • "The regions that process verbal input and output... are offline during recall." (Rachel, 17:50)
  • Proper forensic techniques are critical; manipulative interviews (as in daycare cases) cause immense harm.
• Ritual and "Ritualized" Abuse:
  • Ritualistic abuse is real and multifaceted, present both in explicitly religious and secular contexts (e.g., NXIVM cult).
    • "Most of what we see that has demonic overtones isn’t necessarily somebody... saying, 'I worship Satan.'" (Rachel, 24:50)
  • Sexual abuse often entwined with religious language, rituals, and justification; this is not just ancient history.

Religious Institutions and Abuse—Past and Present

• Patterns in the Church:
  • Perpetrators often use religious language to justify abuse or ensure silence.
    • "The vast majority of survivors in the SBC have alleged... their abusers would abuse them and then lay hands on them and pray over them..." (Rachel, 30:05)
  • Not exclusive to fringe cults—mainstream evangelical leaders (e.g., Mike Bickle at IHOP KC) have employed similar tactics.
• Ritualism in Abuse:
  • The “ritual” may be less about candles and cloaks, more about spiritualized patterns and manipulation within church norms.

Panic, Culture Wars, and the Enabling of Abusers

• How Moral Panic Creates Cover:
  • Abusers often cultivate or exploit “culture war” panics—scapegoating external threats to deflect attention from their own evil.
    • "Abusers are master manipulators... they use fear, in particular, to stoke concern, to be able to deflect, and to manipulate those realities." (Rachel, 34:10)
  • Historical and recent examples: Paul Pressler, Larry Nassar, etc., weaponizing cultural anxieties for personal protection and power.

What Churches Must Learn and Do

• Recognizing True Risk:
  • False accusations are exceedingly rare; identifying with the accused out of fear is misguided.
    • "My son is statistically much more likely to be sexually assaulted than to be a victim of false allegations." (Rachel, 37:16)
• Importance of Independent Inquiry:
  • Churches need trauma-informed, expert-led independent investigations—pastors are not forensic experts.
• Which Experts to Trust:
  • Trust those with proven understanding of trauma and memory (e.g., Michael Salter), but beware of “experts” who undermine victims (e.g., Elizabeth Loftus).
    • "Elizabeth Loftus... has made a career out of decimating victims and supporting and fighting for the most vile people in our society." (Rachel, 39:16)
• Third-Party Accountability:
  • Lawyers hired by churches often work to protect the institution’s assets, not the truth or justice for victims.
    • "God does not need our protection. He demands our obedience." (Rachel, 44:10)
    • "You cannot serve both God and money." (Rachel, 44:20)
  • Leadership must prioritize truth, transparency, and survivor safety—even if it costs the institution.

Church Response and Misconceptions About Victims

• Victims' Motivations:
  • Most survivor-advocates remain deeply committed Christians; they seek reform and healing, not destruction of the faith.
    • "The vast majority of survivors that I work with who have been harmed in the church are still Christians, they're still conservative. They desperately want the church to do this well." (Rachel, 48:40)
• Pushback and Stereotypes:
  • Critics often dismiss survivors/advocates as "liberal," "deconstructed," or "feminist" to avoid confronting real evil—a tactic that must be named and rejected.
    • "You don't get a lot more conservative than that... and that's not enough to save me from 'liberal, demonic, hysterical feminist.'” (Rachel, 53:12)

The Path Forward: Justice and Accountability

• Rejecting Simplistic Narratives:
  • Real solutions require honest diagnosis—acknowledging all forms of abuse of authority, by and against victims/perpetrators.
• Legal System Reforms:
  • Issues like qualified immunity for law enforcement make both abuse and cover-up easier; the need for structural change is critical.
• Christian Duty:
  • Justice, protection of the oppressed, and transparency are not optional add-ons—they are core gospel imperatives.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "Disclosing sexual assault... invites an audience to the worst sexual experience of your life."
  —Rachel, 06:12

• "While the church was literally panicking about sexual abuse in the graveyard next door, it was happening in the Sunday school classrooms."
  —Mike, 09:00

• "Childhood sexual abuse is nowhere near as rare as we want it to be..."
  —Rachel, 10:35

• "Crime in the sexual abuse realm... works like crime everywhere else does. If you think of drug trafficking, it's not that we have one person at the top...”
  —Rachel, 13:40

• "The vast majority of survivors in the SBC have alleged... their abusers would abuse them and then lay hands on them and pray over them...”
  —Rachel, 30:05

• "Abusers are master manipulators... they use fear, in particular, to stoke concern, to be able to deflect, and to manipulate those realities."
  —Rachel, 34:10

• "God does not need our protection. He demands our obedience."
  —Rachel, 44:10

• "The vast majority of survivors... are still Christians, they're still conservative. They desperately want the church to do this well."
  —Rachel, 48:40

• "You don't get a lot more conservative than that... and that's not enough to save me from 'liberal, demonic, hysterical feminist.'”
  —Rachel, 53:12

Key Segments & Timestamps

• Survivors’ Struggles and Systemic Barriers
  [04:25–08:09]

• Moral Panic Versus True Awareness
  [08:09–12:46]

• Organized Abuse and the Misunderstanding of Trafficking
  [12:46–15:34]

• Memory, Trauma, and Forensic Pitfalls
  [15:34–21:46]

• Ritualistic & Religious Abuse Defined
  [21:46–32:16]

• Culture Wars as Cover & Abuser Manipulation
  [32:16–36:41]

• Independent Investigations and Institutional Accountability
  [36:41–44:10]

• Victim Advocacy and Stereotyping Rebutted
  [48:40–54:25]

Conclusion

This episode offers a sobering, clear-eyed look at abuse and accountability in the church, challenging listeners to reject hysteria and instead ground justice in facts, expertise, and gospel commitment to the oppressed. Denhollander’s passionate, informed advocacy calls for a deep culture shift—one that centers survivors, demands transparency, and resists both denial and deflection no matter the cost.