How to Give Birth in America, Pt. 2

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: How to Give Birth in America, Pt. 2
Podcast: Diabolical Lies
Hosts: Katie Gatti Tassin & Caro Claire Burke
Date: May 17, 2026

The episode dives into modern and historical realities of childbirth in America, centering on personal, political, and systemic tensions embedded in the experience of giving birth—especially for women of color. With Caro herself pregnant, the co-hosts bring sharp wit and candid vulnerability to their analysis. They examine recent cases of forced C-sections on Black women in Florida, unpack the historical roots of medical authority over laboring women, and set up a larger critique on bodily autonomy and the social politics of motherhood in the U.S.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Refresher on Pt. 1 and Series Intentions

• The first part of this series focused on 19th-century childbirth in America: pre-hospital deliveries, the role of Puritan culture, and how midwives were pushed out as hospitals were established.
• Caro makes two grounding statements:
  • Disclaimer: “We are podcasters. We are not doctors or midwives.” (03:07)
    • “...don’t make any decisions about your own personal pregnancy based off what I'm talking about.” (03:10, Caro)
  • Obsession with Childbirth: Caro is fascinated by childbirth because it's one of those rare, politically uncategorizable topics. The conversation about giving birth shifts along the political spectrum, making nuance and tension inevitable.

2. Setting the Table: News Story Introduction

Starts at [04:41]

• Caro introduces a recent story: "So we're gonna start today by reading a recent news story, and then we're gonna dive back into the history. Yep. And then we're gonna end back in the present." (04:43, Caro)
• The segment will go from a timely case in 2024 Florida, back to historical roots, then back to today.

3. The Cherise Doily Case (Florida, 2024): Forced C-Sections

Begins at [05:47]

• Case Details: Cherise Doily, a Black mother of three and professional doula, enters Jacksonville hospital aiming for a vaginal birth after three prior C-sections. Cites her understanding of uterine rupture risk (<2%). Despite her experience, hospital authorities push for a C-section.
  • “Doctors told her they were concerned about the risk of uterine rupture... she wouldn't consent to a cesarean without trying to have a vaginal delivery first.” (06:12, Katie)
  • Suddenly, a supervisor wheels in a tablet for a Zoom court hearing—in labor, Doily must argue her case alone.
• Shocking Systemic Failures:
  • Doily denied legal counsel, since Florida doesn’t require one in these situations. (09:11)
  • The only Black person on the call, no Black care team member despite request. (09:19)
  • Doctors reference ACOG (American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists) concerns, omitting that ACOG opposes forced C-sections.

Memorable Quote & Moment

• Doily speaking to the court (played in-episode):

  • “I still have rights as an American citizen and as a patient that I am allowed to decide what goes on with me and my body and my baby.” (10:10, Doily)
  • “If I die from a C section, nobody on this call is going to take care of my children. And that’s just being frank.” (11:03, Doily)
  • Katie comments: “This entire situation is just unthinkable. But the calmness with which she just essentially argued her case very well to this board while she is in active labor...” (11:37, Katie)

• Outcome:

  • Doily is forced into a fourth C-section. (12:37)
  • Caro: “Doily ended up being forced into a C section.” (12:37)

4. Another Case: Brianna Bennett (Florida)

Starts at [13:01]

• Overview: Another Black woman, Brianna Bennett, with three prior C-sections, seeks a vaginal birth due to health, caretaking obligations, and risk of further incapacitation.

  • “Each recovery had been harder than the last... Bennett did not think she could care for all her family members while in recovery from abdominal surgery, so she insisted on vaginal birth.” (13:24, Katie)

• Result: Bennett also forced into a C-section against her will.

  • Caro: “She has since said that it felt essentially equivalent to rape to her and was like one of the more profoundly traumatizing experiences of her life.” (13:57)

• Systemic Issue: Florida courts uniquely permit forced treatment of pregnant people; even prisoners have more bodily autonomy regarding medical care (13:01, Katie).

Notable Statistics

• In 1987, 11 court-ordered cesareans, with 5 women able to give birth vaginally before court’s order could come through. (14:34, Caro)

5. Broader Context: Racial Inequity and Historical Roots

Starts at [14:35]

• Caro’s Transitional Prompt: The co-hosts contextualize forced C-sections in the legacy of medical control over Black and low-income labors, dating back to slavery and 19th-century medical practices.
  • "This country has a very long history of forcing cesareans on poor and minority women." (13:57, Caro)
  • Leads into next segment: “What do you know about chattel slavery? What did they teach you in your Catholic school about chattel slavery?” (14:58, Caro)

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Memorable Quotes

• "You fucking should be. Today's episode… is brought to you by pregnancy brain, which as it turns out, is extremely real.” (00:08, Caro)
• “Don’t make any decisions about your own personal pregnancy based off what I’m talking about.” (03:10, Caro)
• "I am obsessed with childbirth and have been long before I became pregnant... it is one of those rare topics that defies political categorization.” (03:24, Caro)
• “Nuance always performs so well on the Internet.” (04:31, Katie)
• “If I die from a C section, nobody on this call is going to take care of my children. And that's just being frank.” (11:03, Doily)
• “Pregnancy is the only condition where Florida courts have ruled that a patient can be forced to undergo unwanted treatment. Even a state prisoner on a hunger strike has more rights to make medical decisions.” (13:01, Katie)
• “This entire situation is just unthinkable… the calmness with which she just essentially argued her case...” (11:37, Katie)

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Timeline of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00 | Intro, pregnancy brain jokes, disclosure of no sponsors this week | | 01:12 | Recap of Part 1: Historical childbirth, midwives, Puritan culture | | 03:08 | Broad disclaimers: “We are not doctors...” | | 04:41 | Introduction of recent news case | | 05:47 | Reading the ProPublica story: Cherise Doily | | 07:29 | Context: Court-ordered C-sections, lack of legal representation | | 10:10 | Excerpt of Doily's courtroom testimony | | 11:37 | Hosts’ reactions to Doily’s composure and outrage at the situation | | 12:37 | Forced C-section outcome for Doily | | 13:01 | Florida’s unique legal stance on forced care; introduction of Bennett story | | 13:24 | Brianna Bennett’s forced C-section | | 14:35 | Transition into historical and systemic roots | | 14:58 | Prompt for discussion about chattel slavery and the racialized roots of policy |

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Tone & Style

The hosts are candid, irreverent, and sometimes darkly funny (even when discussing harrowing realities). Their approach mixes research, informed speculation, and honest ignorance. They’re both self-aware of their limits and animated by a personal stake—whether through Caro's pregnancy or their mutual anger and disbelief at the injustices described.

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Takeaways

• Forced C-sections remain a contemporary reality with deep ties to America's medical, racial, and legal history.
• Black women are disproportionately affected by these interventions, often due to institutional bias rather than medical necessity.
• The personal experiences and voices of women subjected to these practices—especially those, like Doily, who are themselves professionals—highlight the urgency of scrutinizing medical authority and patient consent in childbirth.
• The conversation's arc moves seamlessly from the present to the past and signals a deep dive (in part three) into historical roots of racial control over women's bodies.

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For further context—or to hear the full lived experience and unfiltered commentary—listen to the full episode at diabolicalliespod.com.

Transcript

[A]

I'm so excited. Okay, recording. Aight, ho. We're good. All right.

[B]

I'm scared.

[A]

You should be. You fucking should be. Today's episode of Diabolical Lies is brought to you by pregnancy Brain, which, as it turns out, is extremely real. And as I am on week six of book tour and month six of actually being pregnant, I'm going to be honest and say I forgot sponsors for this week's episode. And instead I spent. I spent my free hour before this conversation, because I did have a free hour before this conversation, eating gelato on a park bench and thinking about nothing.

[B]

That's great. I told Kara that I wanted to research to prepare for this episode because I don't have pregnancy brain and therefore do not have an excuse. And she told me to, and I quote, don't be a coward. So here I am, bravely showing up, just stewing in my own ignorance to contribute absolutely nothing of substance but good vibes. I will bring good vibes, and that is my promise to all of you.

[A]

You have to bring humor into the conversation today. That's your job.

[B]

I can't wait to try to think about puns about maternal mortality.

[A]

Okay, so Katie, I decided I wanted to do this quote unquote series about eight months ago. She's like, I don't know, man, it's been a crazy year.

[B]

Are we gonna get part two? It's been eight months.

[A]

I thought we would be like six episodes into this series. Anyways, this is how to Give Birth in America, Part 2. You might need a refresher. Katie, do you remember literally anything at all from that conversation?

[B]

You know, I knew you were going to ask me that. So this morning I was trying to remember. I just remember this theme of, like, the idea that childbirth is supernatural and our bodies were made to do this is, like, not quite right. Like, true and some ways, but not in others because of our, like, anatomical standing upright, etc, we talked about pelvic floor stuff.

[A]

I vaguely recall that uterine prolapse. I made you watch a labor video and you squealed. Okay, So I. I would. For anyone who's listening and who hasn't listened to that episode, you might want to listen to that first. We covered essentially the 19th century of childbirth practices in America. We got an understanding of what childbirth was like for women in America pre hospital delivery normalization. We got an understanding of how puritan culture in particular drove beliefs around childbirth.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I forgot how much we talked about midwives.

[A]

Yeah, we did talk a lot about midwives and their significance and all the Varied levels of skill that they had and how they were essentially in the process of being crowded out of the field as hospitals were being erected and kind of established as an industry. So today I want to make two grounding statements that I actually made at the beginning of that conversation as well. Number one, I always feel an urge to give, like, a million warning statements. We are podcasters. We are not doctors or midwives.

[B]

Omnibus disclaimer.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like I want to do the thing of, like, an insurance commercial where it's like, everything that I say is probably going to be incorrect and you should speak to a doctor and, like, don't make any decisions about your own personal pregnancy based off what I'm talking about.

[B]

This is entertainment.

[A]

Yeah. The whole point of this is talking about childbirth on a very broad scale. And I think whenever someone is pregnant or about to give birth or having given birth, it's very personal. And so I just wanna say explicitly, this is not about anyone's individual decisions. We're also gonna be talking pretty intensely about a number of elements of birth that have happened in the wake of hospital births. We're gonna be talking about the C section at length today. So, you know, listen to this at your own comfort level. And the second statement is something I said to you in that first episode as well, which is that I am obsessed with childbirth and have been long before I became pregnant or even knew I wanted to become pregnant. Because I just feel like it is one of those rare topics that defies political categorization. Like, we are constantly sliding left and right in our relationship to giving birth and our relationship to motherhood. You'll see certain positions on giving birth will move from being owned by people on the left to owned by people on the right. I think it's a conversation that's defined by nuance, and there's often a pretty direct tension in that nuance. So I'm going to try to highlight that as we go through this conversation today.

[B]

Nuance always performs so well on the Internet.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I love to push the buttons. Okay. Okay.

[B]

So why are you so out of breath?

[A]

Because I'm pregnant, Katie. And when you go through that, I'll ask you why you're out of breath when you're fucking six months pregnant. I'll go, why are you so out of breath? And then I'll sock you in the head. Okay, so we're gonna start today by reading a recent news story, and then we're gonna dive back into the history. Yep. And then we're gonna end Back in the present. So this is a news story that has gotten a lot of attention recently, but it technically took place in 2024.

[B]

Okay, can I guess? I have two guesses about what this is.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. My first guess is that it's about that child birthing center in New York that gives out the Chanel goodies that was in the cut.

[A]

Okay, but that was a good story.

[B]

And then my second guess is that it's that story about the free birthers.

[A]

Also incorrect. But I do want to do a future episode on that one when we

[B]

do part three in a year.

[A]

When we do part three, when my kid is speaking and walking, When Cara's

[B]

baby starts kindergarten, y' all will get part three. All right, you just sent me a ProPublica link. Oh, did they change their branding? That looks good.

[A]

It does look good.

[B]

The headline is she was in labor at a. Oh, in Florida. Like you, she was in labor at a Florida hospital. Then she was in Zoom court for refusing a C section. Holy cow.

[A]

Okay, okay, so I'm going to ask you to read the first four paragraphs. This is about a black woman who was giving birth to her fourth child in 2024 when things went awry.

[B]

It's difficult to put yourself in the place of Shareese Doily, a pregnant mother of three who found herself facing a judge while in lab at the University of Florida Health Hospital in downtown Jacksonville. She had arrived at the facility with a plan for her birth. She wanted to try for a vaginal delivery, but she understood from years of experience as a professional birthing doula that things don't always go as planned. She arrived overnight at the hospital after her water broke. Doctors told her they were concerned about the risk of uterine rupture, a potentially deadly complication for her and her baby. She understood the risk to be less than 2% and repeatedly told doctors she wouldn't consent to a cesarean without trying to have a vaginal delivery first. The doctors appeared to relent, leaving her to labor for several more hours. Then a nursing supervisor wheeled a tablet up to her bed and informed her she was in court. The reason? Failing to agree to a C section. What, like, during labor?

[A]

Yes, during labor. So this is a story that has been making the rounds over the last several months. This is a story about Cherise Doily and about another black woman, Brianna Bennett, who also was forced to undergo a C section during a Zoom court order.

[B]

Is that. Is this real?

[A]

This is real. So, number one, I want to highlight some facts about this case. Doily was not just a living, breathing adult woman. She was a birthing doula. Not only has she given birth to three children herself, so personal experience, she is a professional. Number two, she had had three prior C sections, one of which had resulted in a hemorrhage. And she did not believe that she should have had to have had those C sections. Again, she understood the risks of uterine rupture to be less than 2%. I watched the entire court hearing. At no point did any of the doctors dispute that the risk was 2%. And we will talk about this more later in the conversation. But to state it very plainly right now, black women are always at a much higher likelihood of C section. We're going to dive into that more a little bit later. These are often for reason that are determined to be unrelated to their health or the health of their baby. Number four or five, whatever pregnancy, brain. It's worth noting, Katie, that you are nearly always recommended strongly emphasis on, you know, almost mandatory to have another C section if you've already had one. It's very rare for a doctor to feel comfortable letting you give birth vaginally after you've had a C section. That's why once a woman has one, she usually has the rest of her deliveries go that way. If you want to try to have a vaginal delivery, they call that a vbac, Vaginal birth after cesarean. But it's very hard to do so. You know, you have to essentially argue often against your doctor's wishes. You have to find a doctor who is supportive of that, et cetera. So when Doily was rushed onto this zoom call court hearing, not only was she currently in labor, she asked for a lawyer or a patient advocate, and she was denied one. Because Florida court does not require a lawyer for this circumstance. Emphasis. This happens in Florida.

[B]

Okay, well, that seems hella illegal.

[A]

Yes, Florida court does not require a lawyer for this. She had to represent herself in labor.

[B]

Oh my fucking God.

[A]

She was the only black person on this call. She did not have a black doctor or nurse. She asked for specifically a black healthcare provider at one point. It's not clear to me if she ever received one. During this call, the doctors mentioned recommendations from the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists basically being like, they worry about uterine rupture. But neither of them cited that the organization has a strong stance against court ordered C sections. They deem those to be ethically impermissible. So we are going to watch a brief video of her having to defend herself on this Zoom Court. Oh, my God. This was a three hour long court hearing. I want to highlight three hours during her labor. As you'll see on this Zoom call, Katie, she's in a hospital bed with a bunch of white people just staring back at her. So, okay, we're going to watch this.

[C]

I don't want to be a statistic, and I came here out of precaution. However, I still have rights as an American citizen and as a patient that I am allowed to decide what goes on with me and my body and my baby. Well, let me ask you about that. What about the risks to the child? The doctors testified about some risks and

[A]

help me understand that.

[C]

In regards to what? Because she's saying that the uterine rupture can cause the placenta to abrupt. And it's a lot of what ifs and maybes. Anytime you go into childbirth, whether you do a vaginal or a C section, there's inherent risk to the mother and the baby. So if it's between them choosing whether I have to live or the baby has to live, I did tell them that I want to live. I have other children out here in the world that need me, and that is my right. Because at the end of the day, if I die from a C section, nobody on this call is going to take care of my children. And that's just being frank. Okay? So I am concerned about the well being of my child, but at the end of the day, with my background, I can read a trace just like they can. And there's nothing that is saying that this is that emergency situation that I have to be rushed into a C section within an hour.

[A]

Thoughts?

[B]

Oh, my God. I. I'm kind of speechless. Like, I'm. This entire situation is just unthinkable. But the calmness with which she just essentially argued her case very well to this board while she is in active labor. Like, I've spoken to women before that are like, during labor, I, like, couldn't understand English. Like, I was in so much pain, it was so intense that I couldn't focus on anything. I felt like I was in a tunnel. It's just unbelievable to me, A, that she was in that situation and B, that she was able to navigate it that well based on that 90 second clip. But, like, I'm. I'm honestly having a hard time believing that it's real. I believe you that it's real, but it just seems so outrageous.

[A]

Well, we're gonna keep spiraling down the rabbit hole of childcare in America, so.

[B]

Oh, fucking hell.

[A]

Doily ended up being forced into a C section. No.

[B]

You're serious?

[A]

Yep. She continued to labor for a few more hours. They determined that it was time for her to go into a C section. They forced her into a C section, and she had one. She had her fourth C section. We are going to read a little bit from CNN about another patient story. This is about Brianna Bennett. This is another black woman in Florida. So I'm going to have you read this first.

[B]

Dude. Pregnancy is the only condition where Florida courts have ruled that a patient can be forced to undergo unwanted treatment. Even a state prisoner on a hunger strike has more rights to make medical decisions. Those rulings give the state vast control over pregnant women.

[A]

Okay, and then I'm going to have you read these two sections from CNN about Brianna Bennett.

[B]

Over the preceding years, Bennett had come to question the medical reasoning behind her three prior C sections. Each recovery had been harder than the last, leaving her so incapacitated after the third that for two weeks, she couldn't even go to the bathroom without help. At the time Bennett went into labor with her fourth, her mother's hip problems had gotten so bad that she needed a wheelchair and required some help from Bennett to function. Bennett did not think she could care for all her family members while in recovery from abdominal surgery, so she insisted on vaginal birth.

[A]

So Bennett was also forced into a C section. She has since said that it felt essentially equivalent to rape to her and was like one of the more profoundly traumatizing experiences of her life. This country has a very long history of forcing cesareans on poor and minority women. In 1987, there were 11 court orders for forced cesareans. In five of the 11 cases, those women delivered healthy babies via a live vaginal birth while the doctors were waiting for a court order to come through. So these doctors are saying, you can't possibly give birth vaginally. You're risking the life of your child. But they were able to give birth because essentially the court order took so long.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Okay, Katie, we're gonna go back in our little time machine. We're gonna go back in history, and we're gonna spend today talking about all of the contextual circumstances that are gonna help us understand this story about Shareese Doily and Brianna Bennett. So, okay, really light question for you, Katie. What do you know about chattel slavery? What did they teach you in your Catholic school about chattel slavery?

[B]

You are just putting me like a little child sized softball on the tee for a T ball game for this big swinging dick of cancellation right now. What do I know about chattel slavery?