Diabolical Lies – The Caro Episode

Podcast: Diabolical Lies
Hosts: Katie Gatti Tassin (A) & Caro Claire Burke (B)
Date: April 5, 2026
Main Theme:
A deep, brutally honest, and frequently hilarious exploration of co-host Caro Claire Burke’s origins, work ethic, creative process, career pivots, debut novel ("Yesteryear"), obsession with tradwife culture, perceptions of success, gender politics, and the challenges and rewards of sudden literary stardom—all filtered through the sharp, conversational lens of two close friends.

Episode Overview

This episode flips the usual format: Katie interviews Caro, digging into Caro’s personal and professional life, artistic philosophy, and the tumultuous experience of publishing her first novel. What emerges is a candid, often self-deprecating, and richly insightful conversation about art, ambition, failure, internet fame, the collision of politics and fiction, and the unique woes of being a millennial woman writer and public figure.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter & Set-Up (00:00–03:32)

• The episode launches with caffeine-fueled chit-chat about Celsius and work ethic.
• Caro jokes about Mormonism and caffeine:
  "When you are someone like me who…can’t handle drugs. I gotta get my kick somehow…just getting absolutely ripped on artificial sweeteners." (A, 00:29)
• The hosts run through a tongue-in-cheek “brought to you by” sponsorship list referencing novel acknowledgments, influencers, and various figures, highlighting the surreal nature of recent career twists.

2. Caro’s Pre-Yesteryear Life and Work (03:32–13:27)

• Caro on wanting to be a writer, failing at “practical” tracks (marine bio, pre-med, pre-law) and embracing a decade of literary grind, including dog walking and years of rejection.
• Caro’s struggle with self-worth, career floundering, existential failures, and the pivotal accidental meeting with Katie:
  "I really felt like I had, like, fucked up my own life and that nothing was gonna come of it. And then I started doing TikTok. Met you and I sold my book in like…literally one month." (B, 06:09)
• Reveals her MFA and how fiction, not “content creation,” was her true calling.

3. Work Ethic, D1 Sports, and Artistic Rituals (08:32–24:43)

• Katie points out Caro’s athletic/rowing background as proof of hidden discipline.
• Caro discusses her complex relationship to “work ethic”—not feeling conventionally Type A or deserving:
  "Do you think you understate or downplay your own work ethic subconsciously?" (A, 09:10) "Probably… there are ...how I work that don’t…fit into how I was raised to think work looks like." (B, 09:17)
• Their creative rituals diverge: Caro describes writing as akin to prayer, a centering morning routine:
  "My relationship to fiction is probably similar to other people’s relationship to prayer...something I do usually in the morning...that makes the rest of my life pleasurable." (B, 21:11)
• Quirky confession: Corn cob "useless candy teeth," need for special straws (25:42)

4. The Lowest Point: Years of Rejection & Identity Crisis (26:56–33:06)

• 2023: Caro describes total burnout and despair after her second novel is rejected everywhere, and her agent calls the project off:
  "I just want to be clear...I know that I’m young for an author. I think it was more so that...that was the only thing I cared about for 10 years. I...put aside any career ambitions for this." (B, 27:06)
• Decides to stop writing, starts TikTok as “creative outlet,” stumbles into viral fame (“just saying stuff online”), tradwife fascination, and the gateway this created to new experiences.

5. TikTok, Tradwife Discourse, and Weird Virality (30:47–34:49)

• The hosts dissect Caro’s obsession with tradwife influencers:
  "They are diabolical lies. They sit at the intersection of every single possible conversation you can have about womanhood..." (B, 33:12)
• Tradwife and Kate Middleton conspiracies as viral gold—accidentally achieving entry into publishing and media circuits.

6. Overnight Success: Selling Yesteryear (34:51–38:13)

• The unprecedented, rapid success of "Yesteryear"; manuscript sells in 30+ countries, film rights, large preempt offers turned down:
  "I sent...60 pages to my agent, and she was like, okay, this is going to sell... I could tell from her posture that it was like, okay, now we just have to position ourselves." (B, 33:51)
• The pivotal moment of turning down life-changing money on agent’s advice:
  "Do you wanna know how much it was for? ...it was again for, like, a multiple variable from what my annual salary was ...Are you sure you wanna turn that? ...Yeah, just trust me..." (B, 35:18)
• Recognition of immense support from husband Riley.

7. Exposure, Publicity, and Creative (Dis)Satisfaction (38:12–47:03)

• Caro and Katie debate the unhealthy impact of attention on art: "I think it's just bad for people. I don't think that it's healthy for people to have, like, a direct…fire hose of other people’s thoughts about them." (B, 39:30)
• On praise and anticipation:
  "Deifying someone is always going to lead to dehumanization… It's always going to be a flip." (B, 40:36)
• Katie: "If you allow the good things that people say about you to make your day, you will allow the bad things to ruin it." (A, 42:44)
• The question of overthinking, self-consciousness, and its detrimental effects on writing.

8. Art vs. Artist—Separating the Two (54:06–59:35)

• Fiercely articulated case for separating art from artist, citing problematic faves:
  "Some of my favorite works of art have been written by people who have hurt other people, people who have been deeply imperfect. And that doesn't change the fact that their art has changed my life." (B, 56:09)
• Explores limits of cancellation, prison book clubs, and nuance around redemption and creativity.

9. Deep Dive on "Yesteryear"—Characters, Plot, and Critical Themes (59:35–93:37)

Notable Segments:

• On Natalie (Protagonist):
  "She's bigoted, she's racist, she's close minded, she's...negligent mother. But she's also deeply ambitious and funny... There was something that just felt so fresh about her..." (B, 62:59)
• On Influence of the Author:
  Caro acknowledges autobiography but distances herself from a 1:1 identification:
  "I think you and I both really respect when women exhibit masculine traits. And Natalie exhibits a lot… she's selfish, she's ambitious..." (B, 65:14)
• On Caleb (Husband):
  His character is intentionally pliable and subverts traditional monster/husband narratives:
  "I just loved the idea of pairing Natalie’s ambition and acidic nature with someone who's just so sweet and pliable..." (B, 67:02)
• Sexuality, Power, and Ambiguity:
  "I think you're really good at identifying these kind of subversive sexual themes… Power differentials can be erotic." (A, 74:07)
  "I'm fascinated by sex. Sex is also not the same as pleasure. ...her lack of knowledge about how the body works, about how her own body works..." (B, 75:18)
• Handling Twist & Unreliable Narrators:
  The ambiguity around a key assault scene is essential:
  "The extent to which…what is the truth of what happened in that room? I think is almost…irrelevant…" (B, 79:28)
• On Writing Process/Editing:
  First draft “skeletal,” later layers added for complexity; if rewritten, would make it “30% longer.”
  "If I could do it again just for myself, I would make it twice as long." (B, 87:10)

10. Tradwife Nostalgia—The Allure & Dangers (87:42–93:37)

• Caro admits a fascination and secret longing for tradwife/cowboy fantasies, despite knowing their darkness: "There is a part of you that…really understands the allure or the romance of the fantasy that these people are selling." (A, 87:42)
  "There is something perversely comforting about just for a second, like…escaping the neurotic interiority of my own life. It is intoxicating, even if you know it's fake." (A, 90:49)
• Discussion of Mormon aesthetics, Little House on the Prairie, and Severance as meta-commentary on fantasy and reality.

11. Personal News: Pregnancy & Public Persona (93:37–100:28)

• Caro confirms her pregnancy, jokes Katie is the father.
• On managing privacy versus public exposure during book promotion:
  "I never wanted to be pregnant on tour, ever...But now I'm like…how can I minimize [stress] on any given day?" (B, 94:01)
• Fiercely protective of personal boundaries; rejects commodification of her own motherhood narrative.

12. Closing: Affirmations, Friendship, & The Future (96:36–end)

• Katie closes with passionate appreciation for Caro’s perseverance and brilliance:
  "This happens to, like, one novelist a year, you know, and it's you, and you did it...I hope you feel…as proud of yourself as I feel of you." (A, 98:46)
• Caro gushes about her co-hosts, support network, Riley, and newfound fulfillment.
• Cheeky dialogue about naming the baby "Kta."
• Ends with hype for the upcoming live show and promise of a tour.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Caro on the agony of submission:
  "I was so tired of generating my own self momentum...I was just another writer who writes for a decade and then doesn’t end up publishing..." (B, 27:09)

• On attention and exposure:
  "Deifying someone is always going to lead to dehumanization. It's always going to be a flip." (B, 40:36)

• On separating art from artist:
  "People should make art. And people are usually also irredeemable in some way." (B, 58:47)

• On Natalie:
  "I like to think of her as an antihero because that's what we call men who are nightmarish, but still the main character." (B, 62:32)

• On sexuality and pleasure:
  "Sex is also not the same as pleasure…her lack of knowledge about how the body works, about how her own body works, combined with her…refusal to engage with her own life on terms of pleasure and joy. Like, she’s not a pleasurable person." (B, 75:18)

• On ambiguity and unreliable narrator:
  "The extent to which…what is the truth of what happened in that room? I think is almost…irrelevant because…the experience of being violent…there is clear violation…but whether that was sexually driven…I think is kind of unclear to both of them." (B, 79:29)

• On the appeal of tradwife fantasy:
  "I grew up idolizing Little House on the Prairie. I grew up watching the Duggars...it's always a new one. It's always the same thing. It's a rotation. It's never ending." (B, 90:22)

Top Timestamps

• 00:00–03:32: Intro banter, manifesto of the episode.
• 05:05–06:09: Caro’s backstory, early career floundering.
• 09:09–10:02: Discussion of “hidden” work ethic.
• 17:16–19:17: MFA, early writing jobs, and failures.
• 21:07–22:47: Relationship of writing to prayer/ritual.
• 27:06–29:34: Nadir and identity crisis.
• 34:51–38:13: Selling the novel, auction, foreign rights.
• 39:30–41:52: Exposure's effects, overthinking, impact of praise/criticism.
• 54:06–59:35: Art vs. artist, forgiveness, and creativity.
• 62:32–63:50: Analysis of Natalie as antihero/likability.
• 74:07–75:18: Power dynamics and eroticism in the novel.
• 87:42–90:49: Allure and dark comfort of tradwife/Mormon/Americana aesthetics.
• 93:37–100:28: Caro’s pregnancy, public/private boundaries.
• 98:46–end: Celebratory affirmations, endearing “co-parenting” jokes, upcoming tour.

Tone & Style

• Conversational, profane, deeply honest, alternately deadpan and earnest.
• Self-deprecating wit; reflects both hosts’ comfort with each other and intellectual rigor.
• Intimate: The episode doubles as both a professional interview and a complex love letter/friendship appreciation.

For Listeners: Why This Episode Stands Out

• Incredibly candid discussion about the grand failures and tiny lucks that go into creative success—demystifying the literary “breakout.”
• Thoughtful, nuanced debate about gender, attention, work, burnout, and the politics of art—always with humor and pathos.
• Honest look at the psychological cost (and privilege) of overnight success and the peculiarities of female ambition.
• Unique, insider’s perspective on how internet culture (TikTok, influencer discourse) now shapes literary careers.

Recommendations

• For aspiring artists/writers: Required listening for anyone grappling with impostor syndrome, creative despair, or suspicion that hard work is never enough.
• For book club members: Insightful glimpses into the making and meaning of Yesteryear, perfect pre-reading discussion fodder.
• Fans of gender politics, influencer culture, or millennial burnout literature.
• If you haven’t read "Yesteryear" yet: Consider skipping the novel discussion section for spoilers.

“Caroline, there is literally no one on planet Earth who is more interesting to me than you. Never second guess that ever again.” (A, 48:12)

Go buy Yesteryear. Long live Diabolical Lies.

(See you in Austin, Friday night.)