The Caro Episode

Summary

Diabolical Lies – The Caro Episode

Podcast: Diabolical Lies
Hosts: Katie Gatti Tassin (A) & Caro Claire Burke (B)
Date: April 5, 2026
Main Theme:
A deep, brutally honest, and frequently hilarious exploration of co-host Caro Claire Burke’s origins, work ethic, creative process, career pivots, debut novel ("Yesteryear"), obsession with tradwife culture, perceptions of success, gender politics, and the challenges and rewards of sudden literary stardom—all filtered through the sharp, conversational lens of two close friends.

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Episode Overview

This episode flips the usual format: Katie interviews Caro, digging into Caro’s personal and professional life, artistic philosophy, and the tumultuous experience of publishing her first novel. What emerges is a candid, often self-deprecating, and richly insightful conversation about art, ambition, failure, internet fame, the collision of politics and fiction, and the unique woes of being a millennial woman writer and public figure.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter & Set-Up (00:00–03:32)

• The episode launches with caffeine-fueled chit-chat about Celsius and work ethic.
• Caro jokes about Mormonism and caffeine:
  "When you are someone like me who…can’t handle drugs. I gotta get my kick somehow…just getting absolutely ripped on artificial sweeteners." (A, 00:29)
• The hosts run through a tongue-in-cheek “brought to you by” sponsorship list referencing novel acknowledgments, influencers, and various figures, highlighting the surreal nature of recent career twists.

2. Caro’s Pre-Yesteryear Life and Work (03:32–13:27)

• Caro on wanting to be a writer, failing at “practical” tracks (marine bio, pre-med, pre-law) and embracing a decade of literary grind, including dog walking and years of rejection.
• Caro’s struggle with self-worth, career floundering, existential failures, and the pivotal accidental meeting with Katie:
  "I really felt like I had, like, fucked up my own life and that nothing was gonna come of it. And then I started doing TikTok. Met you and I sold my book in like…literally one month." (B, 06:09)
• Reveals her MFA and how fiction, not “content creation,” was her true calling.

3. Work Ethic, D1 Sports, and Artistic Rituals (08:32–24:43)

• Katie points out Caro’s athletic/rowing background as proof of hidden discipline.
• Caro discusses her complex relationship to “work ethic”—not feeling conventionally Type A or deserving:
  "Do you think you understate or downplay your own work ethic subconsciously?" (A, 09:10) "Probably… there are ...how I work that don’t…fit into how I was raised to think work looks like." (B, 09:17)
• Their creative rituals diverge: Caro describes writing as akin to prayer, a centering morning routine:
  "My relationship to fiction is probably similar to other people’s relationship to prayer...something I do usually in the morning...that makes the rest of my life pleasurable." (B, 21:11)
• Quirky confession: Corn cob "useless candy teeth," need for special straws (25:42)

4. The Lowest Point: Years of Rejection & Identity Crisis (26:56–33:06)

• 2023: Caro describes total burnout and despair after her second novel is rejected everywhere, and her agent calls the project off:
  "I just want to be clear...I know that I’m young for an author. I think it was more so that...that was the only thing I cared about for 10 years. I...put aside any career ambitions for this." (B, 27:06)
• Decides to stop writing, starts TikTok as “creative outlet,” stumbles into viral fame (“just saying stuff online”), tradwife fascination, and the gateway this created to new experiences.

5. TikTok, Tradwife Discourse, and Weird Virality (30:47–34:49)

• The hosts dissect Caro’s obsession with tradwife influencers:
  "They are diabolical lies. They sit at the intersection of every single possible conversation you can have about womanhood..." (B, 33:12)
• Tradwife and Kate Middleton conspiracies as viral gold—accidentally achieving entry into publishing and media circuits.

6. Overnight Success: Selling Yesteryear (34:51–38:13)

• The unprecedented, rapid success of "Yesteryear"; manuscript sells in 30+ countries, film rights, large preempt offers turned down:
  "I sent...60 pages to my agent, and she was like, okay, this is going to sell... I could tell from her posture that it was like, okay, now we just have to position ourselves." (B, 33:51)
• The pivotal moment of turning down life-changing money on agent’s advice:
  "Do you wanna know how much it was for? ...it was again for, like, a multiple variable from what my annual salary was ...Are you sure you wanna turn that? ...Yeah, just trust me..." (B, 35:18)
• Recognition of immense support from husband Riley.

7. Exposure, Publicity, and Creative (Dis)Satisfaction (38:12–47:03)

• Caro and Katie debate the unhealthy impact of attention on art: "I think it's just bad for people. I don't think that it's healthy for people to have, like, a direct…fire hose of other people’s thoughts about them." (B, 39:30)
• On praise and anticipation:
  "Deifying someone is always going to lead to dehumanization… It's always going to be a flip." (B, 40:36)
• Katie: "If you allow the good things that people say about you to make your day, you will allow the bad things to ruin it." (A, 42:44)
• The question of overthinking, self-consciousness, and its detrimental effects on writing.

8. Art vs. Artist—Separating the Two (54:06–59:35)

• Fiercely articulated case for separating art from artist, citing problematic faves:
  "Some of my favorite works of art have been written by people who have hurt other people, people who have been deeply imperfect. And that doesn't change the fact that their art has changed my life." (B, 56:09)
• Explores limits of cancellation, prison book clubs, and nuance around redemption and creativity.

9. Deep Dive on "Yesteryear"—Characters, Plot, and Critical Themes (59:35–93:37)

Notable Segments:

• On Natalie (Protagonist):
  "She's bigoted, she's racist, she's close minded, she's...negligent mother. But she's also deeply ambitious and funny... There was something that just felt so fresh about her..." (B, 62:59)
• On Influence of the Author:
  Caro acknowledges autobiography but distances herself from a 1:1 identification:
  "I think you and I both really respect when women exhibit masculine traits. And Natalie exhibits a lot… she's selfish, she's ambitious..." (B, 65:14)
• On Caleb (Husband):
  His character is intentionally pliable and subverts traditional monster/husband narratives:
  "I just loved the idea of pairing Natalie’s ambition and acidic nature with someone who's just so sweet and pliable..." (B, 67:02)
• Sexuality, Power, and Ambiguity:
  "I think you're really good at identifying these kind of subversive sexual themes… Power differentials can be erotic." (A, 74:07)
  "I'm fascinated by sex. Sex is also not the same as pleasure. ...her lack of knowledge about how the body works, about how her own body works..." (B, 75:18)
• Handling Twist & Unreliable Narrators:
  The ambiguity around a key assault scene is essential:
  "The extent to which…what is the truth of what happened in that room? I think is almost…irrelevant…" (B, 79:28)
• On Writing Process/Editing:
  First draft “skeletal,” later layers added for complexity; if rewritten, would make it “30% longer.”
  "If I could do it again just for myself, I would make it twice as long." (B, 87:10)

10. Tradwife Nostalgia—The Allure & Dangers (87:42–93:37)

• Caro admits a fascination and secret longing for tradwife/cowboy fantasies, despite knowing their darkness: "There is a part of you that…really understands the allure or the romance of the fantasy that these people are selling." (A, 87:42)
  "There is something perversely comforting about just for a second, like…escaping the neurotic interiority of my own life. It is intoxicating, even if you know it's fake." (A, 90:49)
• Discussion of Mormon aesthetics, Little House on the Prairie, and Severance as meta-commentary on fantasy and reality.

11. Personal News: Pregnancy & Public Persona (93:37–100:28)

• Caro confirms her pregnancy, jokes Katie is the father.
• On managing privacy versus public exposure during book promotion:
  "I never wanted to be pregnant on tour, ever...But now I'm like…how can I minimize [stress] on any given day?" (B, 94:01)
• Fiercely protective of personal boundaries; rejects commodification of her own motherhood narrative.

12. Closing: Affirmations, Friendship, & The Future (96:36–end)

• Katie closes with passionate appreciation for Caro’s perseverance and brilliance:
  "This happens to, like, one novelist a year, you know, and it's you, and you did it...I hope you feel…as proud of yourself as I feel of you." (A, 98:46)
• Caro gushes about her co-hosts, support network, Riley, and newfound fulfillment.
• Cheeky dialogue about naming the baby "Kta."
• Ends with hype for the upcoming live show and promise of a tour.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Caro on the agony of submission:
  "I was so tired of generating my own self momentum...I was just another writer who writes for a decade and then doesn’t end up publishing..." (B, 27:09)

• On attention and exposure:
  "Deifying someone is always going to lead to dehumanization. It's always going to be a flip." (B, 40:36)

• On separating art from artist:
  "People should make art. And people are usually also irredeemable in some way." (B, 58:47)

• On Natalie:
  "I like to think of her as an antihero because that's what we call men who are nightmarish, but still the main character." (B, 62:32)

• On sexuality and pleasure:
  "Sex is also not the same as pleasure…her lack of knowledge about how the body works, about how her own body works, combined with her…refusal to engage with her own life on terms of pleasure and joy. Like, she’s not a pleasurable person." (B, 75:18)

• On ambiguity and unreliable narrator:
  "The extent to which…what is the truth of what happened in that room? I think is almost…irrelevant because…the experience of being violent…there is clear violation…but whether that was sexually driven…I think is kind of unclear to both of them." (B, 79:29)

• On the appeal of tradwife fantasy:
  "I grew up idolizing Little House on the Prairie. I grew up watching the Duggars...it's always a new one. It's always the same thing. It's a rotation. It's never ending." (B, 90:22)

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Top Timestamps

• 00:00–03:32: Intro banter, manifesto of the episode.
• 05:05–06:09: Caro’s backstory, early career floundering.
• 09:09–10:02: Discussion of “hidden” work ethic.
• 17:16–19:17: MFA, early writing jobs, and failures.
• 21:07–22:47: Relationship of writing to prayer/ritual.
• 27:06–29:34: Nadir and identity crisis.
• 34:51–38:13: Selling the novel, auction, foreign rights.
• 39:30–41:52: Exposure's effects, overthinking, impact of praise/criticism.
• 54:06–59:35: Art vs. artist, forgiveness, and creativity.
• 62:32–63:50: Analysis of Natalie as antihero/likability.
• 74:07–75:18: Power dynamics and eroticism in the novel.
• 87:42–90:49: Allure and dark comfort of tradwife/Mormon/Americana aesthetics.
• 93:37–100:28: Caro’s pregnancy, public/private boundaries.
• 98:46–end: Celebratory affirmations, endearing “co-parenting” jokes, upcoming tour.

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, profane, deeply honest, alternately deadpan and earnest.
• Self-deprecating wit; reflects both hosts’ comfort with each other and intellectual rigor.
• Intimate: The episode doubles as both a professional interview and a complex love letter/friendship appreciation.

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For Listeners: Why This Episode Stands Out

• Incredibly candid discussion about the grand failures and tiny lucks that go into creative success—demystifying the literary “breakout.”
• Thoughtful, nuanced debate about gender, attention, work, burnout, and the politics of art—always with humor and pathos.
• Honest look at the psychological cost (and privilege) of overnight success and the peculiarities of female ambition.
• Unique, insider’s perspective on how internet culture (TikTok, influencer discourse) now shapes literary careers.

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Recommendations

• For aspiring artists/writers: Required listening for anyone grappling with impostor syndrome, creative despair, or suspicion that hard work is never enough.
• For book club members: Insightful glimpses into the making and meaning of Yesteryear, perfect pre-reading discussion fodder.
• Fans of gender politics, influencer culture, or millennial burnout literature.
• If you haven’t read "Yesteryear" yet: Consider skipping the novel discussion section for spoilers.

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“Caroline, there is literally no one on planet Earth who is more interesting to me than you. Never second guess that ever again.” (A, 48:12)

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Go buy Yesteryear. Long live Diabolical Lies.

(See you in Austin, Friday night.)

Transcript

[A]

I feel like I just woke up. I need to, like, chug this drink and. Okay.

[B]

Is that a Celsius?

[A]

Oh, bitch, I have been.

[B]

Are you drinking Celsius now?

[A]

You don't even want to know the quantities of Celsius that I have been consuming.

[B]

Are you drinking it with coffee?

[A]

Not at the same time.

[B]

Oh, my God. Okay, you're probably consuming, like, 500 milligrams of caffeine every day.

[A]

On a good day, dude. When you are someone like me who, like, doesn't drink, can't really handle drugs. Like, I got to get my kick somehow. And just getting absolutely ripped on, like, artificial sweeteners.

[B]

You were built to be a Mormon.

[A]

I know. Wow. That.

[B]

That you were genuinely Katie.

[A]

Let's talk about that instead.

[B]

It's a tragedy that your parents didn't raise you to be Mormon because you would be a billionaire by now.

[A]

Yesteryear would be about me 100%. I've been waiting for this moment for the last six months. Okay, today's episode of Diabolical Lies was brought to you by TikTok. Two Scottish fold cats named Pancake and Ophelia. Candace Owens, Degree 180. Katie Couric Media and Caro's 2015 essay about graduating college in the Atlantic, which was the best thing they ever published, Probably. The University of Virginia's D1 rowing team, Jenny Jackson at Knopf, Tradwives, Tradwife Influencers. Because as you'll learn, they're not the same thing. Not one, but two vintage Airstreams. And the hiring manager at Salesforce who passed over Kira's resume. We owe our lives to you.

[B]

Thank you, Salesforce, for rejecting all of my panicked applications over the last five years.

[A]

Caroline, welcome to your tape. We're here today to talk about you.

[B]

Thank you. I feel sick to my stomach. Welcome to my tape. Wow. I will give you my 13 reasons why today.

[A]

Do you know how hard it was for me? How hard you made it for me to cobble together your professional history for that intro? Caroline does not have a fucking LinkedIn, people.

[B]

I deleted my LinkedIn.

[A]

I was like, Google time searching Caroline Burke, 2015, University of Virginia, question mark. I found old headshots. So today, Caroline, I'm going to interview you, just like you interviewed me for the Katie episode last fall when I bought back my brand. Because for those of you who may be newer to Diabolical Lies, Carol and I started this project in mid 2024 while we were both already professionally committed full time to other things. So Caro is among other Things, as you learned recently, a thinker about town, but she's also a novelist, and as those who have already read Yesteryear, her debut novel know, a really fucking good one. So today, we are going to get inside your head, and I'm going to basically just, like, glaze you for the next two hours. Consent to be glazed.

[B]

I consent. You read my book, like, four months ago now, and we haven't even texted about it.

[A]

It's become, like the sisterhood of the traveling. Yet, like, my interior designer has it right now.

[B]

Are you passing it around?

[A]

Yeah. She read it in, like, three days, and I was like, dude, bring it back.

[B]

She's like, I have to decline work on your house at this point for

[A]

the structure of this conversation. I thought, what could be more fitting than talking about the artist and also talking about the art and then talking about separating the art from the artist? Your favorite thing.

[B]

Oh, I love it.

[A]

So we're going to talk about all three, starting with you, the artist. So, Kara, my first question is, what gives you the fucking right?

[B]

Oh, my God. I'm just kidding.

[A]

I know. That's the question you least want to receive over the next two months when you talk to hundreds of people.

[B]

What gives you the right? Nothing. Nothing.

[A]

Okay, well, then let's begin with the big picture up front. You are publishing a very large novel. It is called Yesteryear, and we are going to talk about it today. So if you are a spoiler purist, maybe, like, skip the last bit of this conversation, but I read a Garth Greenwell piece that you sent me a while back in which he wrote that publishing a debut novel is a dream come true and a nightmare. Which phase of that process are you in right now?

[B]

I'm in the phase of the nightmare where you've realized you can't run and where your mom's head is, like, made of spider eyes, and you're just. You're stuck there. I've said this a few times before. I feel like the last two years have felt like a baptism by fire. And this is the part where I feel like I'm actually feeling myself burn alive. And we will find out if something comes out of the ashes.

[A]

We'll see Joan of Arc.

[B]

Mutual levels of adversity, I would say.

[A]

Then let's talk about before you were Joan of Arc. Metaphorically. Take us back to Caro's life before yesteryear. You asked me this question, and it really stuck with me. So I'm gonna ask you, who were you before you wrote yesteryear?

[B]

I Was a writer. I have wanted to be a. I mean, I haven't wanted to be a writer my whole life, but I have wanted to be a writer for the longest period of time. Before that, I didn't really want to be anything, so I was a fiction writer.

[A]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. You didn't have like a thing? Like, I wanted to be a veterinarian when I was a little kid. You. You didn't have like a thing when you were little?

[B]

Yeah, I had like the marine biologist thing, but I didn't actually do anything with animals. I was pre mad, as everyone does. Exactly. Everyone like, like, sees a dolphin and is like, that would be cool. And then you're like, dolphins don't need handlers. You know, maybe we should just free them. And then you're like, I was going to be pre med and then I failed out of Orgo and then I was going to be pre law, and then that didn't happen. So I just like, didn't have anything that had, like, much thrust behind it. And so I was a fiction writer for about a decade, writing novels, trying to sell them. I moved through literary agents, you know, I submitted things. And so right before yesteryear, I was in the one full time job I would ever have because before that it had all been freelance. And I was also dog walking on the side because my husband was in grad school and not earning any money.

[A]

Shout out Leslie.

[B]

Shout out Leslie the cattle dog that I could not look in the eye. And I was very panicked. I really felt like I had like, fucked up my own life and that nothing was gonna come of it. And then I started doing TikTok. Met you and I sold my book in like a matter of literally one month. So pretty crazy. W. I'm blushing.

[A]

T. W. I need to collect myself now.

[B]

Yeah. Putting you on the back burner. Binge. How did you feel? How did you feel when you met me?

[A]

Smitten immediately. We've been over this, you know? Yeah. How did you feel? How did you feel when you met me?

[B]

I started making videos on TikTok and all of a sudden it was like I felt like I was given a back door to entry to so many things that I had, like, tried to do the formal way for so long. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh, because I'm doing videos on TikTok now. New Zealand. NPR wants to talk to me. I had been following you on Instagram for so long. Loved the Money with Katie show, loved your account. And then all of a sudden, it was like, hey, you should come on the show. And I was like, what? It just felt very crazy. So you were such a process of anointment for me meeting you and being like, oh, there are other smart people, and they are perceiving me as an equal. And I felt like such a fraud because I didn't have any. I was literally just saying stuff online. Like, I had no talk about. What gives you the right? I have never had the right. I have no right. I have no rights.

[A]

But this is an interesting thing because you. You say you have no right, but there are a couple threads that I want to pull on here, one of which is your mfa.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You have a master's degree in technically. What is the degree in?

[B]

Fine Arts?

[A]

Making stuff up on the page. Not. Not saying stuff online. Making. Just saying stuff in print.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And I feel like one thing that felt like it came up in the Katy episode. You give me a lot of credit for, like, work ethic and stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I've been thinking about this Caro episode for months. And the other day.

[B]

Okay, just pause for a second. Once again, you working so hard on something. I did not think about your episode.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

Oh, my God, Katie.

[A]

I've been thinking about this for months because I. I think about you all the time. And I was in a workout doing those. Let me set the scene. I was doing those stupid. You ever do, like, the ball throw on the wall? Like, the heavy ball that you have to, like, throw up the wall? It's like a squat.

[B]

Yeah. Katie's trying to gain mass.

[A]

I. Yeah. Trying to compete with Hasan Piker for being swollest leftist on the Internet. And I started thinking as I was doing these stupid things and how much I hate them and how much I was, like, wanting to slack off and I couldn't because the trainer was right there, and I was thinking about. I was like. Caroline was a Division 1 athlete.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For, like, four years. That is an incredibly intense and disciplined way to exist, particularly in college when people are like, most like, I was just fucking around around in college.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you think that you understate or downplay your own work ethic subconsciously?

[B]

Probably. I think I probably do. I think there are also just certain elements about how I work that don't, like, fit into how I was raised to think work looks like. I think a lot, but I'm not, like, sitting at a computer typing all day. I don't have a filled count. Like, when I. I mean, I have a very filled calendar right now, but Usually my work day. Like we've joked about this that like when you doing money with Katie with Morning Brew, like your calendar would be like color coded to the fucking hilt. And that's not really how my life works. It just never felt like I was type A and I. I don't think I ever felt like I was doing it correctly. I feel like I'm like, am I realizing that I hate myself? Is that the outline of this episode?

[A]

This is why we need a video. Cuz I feel like I'm.

[B]

I'm.

[A]

As you were saying that answer, I was making the face where spongebob is like, do you like Krabby Patty Squid word, Caroline. Do you like working hard? I think you do. I think you're more of a grinder than you than you give yourself credit for.

[B]

Maybe I do like that hustle.

[A]

We're recording this before either one of us have seen your New York Times style section profile. Yeah, but if I had to guess, the through line of that piece is going to be how ambitious you are and how big you're swinging right now. Okay, so let's go back in time. Berta, you said this was your first full time job and I want to show you something that I dug up in my research. Okay, Please read the headline.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

The headline, sub headline and the date.

[B]

Oh my God. Okay. From parties to panels to game changing innovations, here's what you missed at south by Southwest subhead, expectations were high for this year's festival and the star studded event did not disappoint. By Caroline Burke Published April 12, 2024. Was this when we met?

[A]

This was the last thing that you published before you finished yesteryear. Oh, I'm showing you this because this is the last thing that you published For Katie Couric Media, my tri Delta sister. Shout out. I was mind boggled by this. I was like, I cannot believe I ever lived in a world where Carol Claire Burke was writing. Expectations were high this year's festival and the star studded event did not disappoint. For an article about Cocoa Flavanols branded article in the name of asking you what you meant in previous interviews. What is a Cocoa Flavanol?

[B]

Wait, it's a supplement.

[A]

People are dying to know.

[B]

Is it a supplement?

[A]

I have no idea. This isn't rhetorical, okay?

[B]

I for sure used branded language. There was definitely a word document where I had to use an exact definition that was may or may not have been approved by the fda. So we're joking about me. Always Applying to Salesforce. But basically throughout my 20s, I was a freelance writer who was not working towards a career. And my husband kind of covered our asses very frequently. Like, often when I was at mfa, like, I was just very much like, put all your eggs in one basket and just like, we'll try to figure it out. And I got hired at Katie Kirk Media, and it was my first full time job ever. And I really liked who I worked with, but it wasn't where I planned to be forever. But during this time period, I submitted the second fiction manuscript I had written and it was rejected. And we can talk more about that in a second. But I basically was like, okay, I'm 30 years old. This isn't happening. I've been working on this forever. We want children. We want a life. Riley has been covering for me forever.

[A]

Now.

[B]

He wants it now. He's in grad school. And he basically helped me. I was like, okay, I need to figure out a way to, like, start making more money and build a career. And so I transitioned into branded writing at Katie Kirk Media, started doing UX writing. I was applying to Salesforce to be like, maybe I can get a job as a technical writer. And so that was literally me being like, give up your dreams, kids. Cash in and, like, get a 401k. Like, it's time for me to have a retirement fund. And then again, that was when I sold yesterday. So it's just crazy.

[A]

I appreciate that context because next I was gonna have you do a dramatic reading of the other headlines that they had you working on at the time while you were also writing the next great American novel. This is like, I wanna go back and be like, what Branded copy?

[B]

Who else have we lost?

[A]

Was Fitzgerald working on while writing the Great Gatsby?

[B]

The greatest of our time.

[A]

Okay, here we go.

[B]

All right. What you. All right. What you get wrong about cat allergies? Say goodbye to daily sneezing fits. I should send this to Thomas Inside. Okay, okay, wait. I actually have a really funny story about the Jenny Kane one.

[A]

Wait, read it. Read it first.

[B]

Okay, okay, okay, okay. Inside minimalist designer Jenny Kane's start of summer capsule wardrobe. It's time to have fun with new prints, colors, and fabrics, says the designer. Okay, quick pause in this one. So Jenny Kane is like very, very upscale California clothing. And that was like, a common brand with kcm. And so I got some clothing, and I remember I opened it and it was like a brand haul. It was like, it wasn't because I was an influencer. It's Because I was. I had to write about the clothing. And I said to Riley, like, oh, my God, this clothing is so overpriced. I can't believe anyone would pay for it. And I am obsessed with it. I wear the sweaters, like, four times a week. And Riley will always be like, oh, is that your Jenny Cane sweater, Caroline, that you were, like, so bitchy about?

[A]

Would you say that you're having fun with new prints, colors, and fabrics?

[B]

Absolutely, I am. I'm always very print forward. Okay. Is it safe to cook with aluminum foil? Read this before you fire up your grill gears, guys. Years of my life.

[A]

It physically pains me. My nerve endings are. I. That's, like burning alive to me is knowing that your mind was wasted in this coal mine of a content factory. No shade to Katie, my Delta sister. How does it feel to read that now from the position you're in today?

[B]

That is why I feel like whenever I talk about this, I cannot communicate how surreal it is. Not just yesteryear. Selling yesteryear. Like, I. I thought for a long time I could become a novelist. I could sell a book. I didn't think I could sell a book like, I sold yesteryear, but I was like, I'll be able to sell a book. A lot of people sell novels. You can do that. I didn't know if I'd be able to quit my job, but. But also diabolical lies, which happened. We started talking, happened, like, a month after we sold yesteryear. I, like, really can't believe the flip that my career took. And it really doesn't seem like that's supposed to happen. Like, it seems like it's a glitch. I can't believe that, like, it actually worked out. It's shocking to me. And I still. I don't think I've processed it. It shouldn't have.

[A]

I. You're right. We should just be done.

[B]

It shouldn't have worked out.

[A]

I think that I really relate, actually, to the feeling of it being a glitch or, like, well, this was a fluke. And so I can'. Do anything that could fuck this up because, like, I'm not responsible for this to begin with. And at the same time, when I saw that you got an A byline in the Atlantic as, like, a recently graduated college senior, I was kind of like, the writing has sort of been on the wall kind of the entire time. That you were very talented.

[B]

I mean, yes and no, though, I think, because it worked out. But, like, I think there are a million other, like, in the name of everything, everywhere, all at once. I think there are like a million other parallel universe where it does not work out.

[A]

So you were working in media for a decade, I guess, after you graduated college and you published that essay, which I couldn't even. I can't read because I'm not a subscriber to the Atlantic and the archive sites are down right now. So I read like the first three paragraphs and I was like, I can tell this was a banger. I don't know what the rest of it said.

[B]

It's very baby Diabolical Lies. Now that I read it, it's like very 20 year old who will in 13 years run a podcast called Diabolical Lies.

[A]

So then, at what point did you get an MFA in that period?

[B]

I graduated. Graduated with basically like a pre law footing. I did the Atlantic. I was planning on going to law school. I just didn't. I don't know, I just like, never applied. Didn't.

[A]

Did you take the lsat?

[B]

I took the lsat. Never looked at my score. I think I probably did well, but not great. I just took it and I was just like, I just don't. I should probably try to see if I can find it. I don't think they keep them for more than five years. It just fizzled out. It's just like, I just didn't have the hoods before it. And so then I got like a job at a tech company. I was a content marketer and then I started doing freelance work. I got fired from so many jobs because I didn't try hard. I would write blogs and then they would be like, this is bad. And I would be like, fair. And then I would get fired. And then I moved to LA and I started my MFA when I was 24. 24 or 25. And I did that for two years.

[A]

What were you doing in LA?

[B]

Being in love and nannying.

[A]

Being in love.

[B]

I met Riley, like right before I moved to la. And then he moved to Caroline's.

[A]

Beaming, by the way.

[B]

Yeah, it was so much fun. Anyways, so he was like, stable and had a good job in advertising and I was a nanny for a year and a half. I wrote at Bustle, I wrote at a number of aggregators. And I was just. Again, like, every year I was like, this is the year I sell a novel. So I was very short term. This is technically the third novel I've worked on yesteryear. Every single year. I was like, this is the year. And I was always. It felt like really close. Like, from 24 on, I always had an agent. I always had a novel that was almost finished. It wasn't like I was thinking about a long term. It was like, I want a three book deal. I know how much I want it for. I know how much I need to sell it for. Like, I want to be Emma Cline. I want to be whatever. And then it just never happened. And so it's like year after year, you're, like, getting older, like, starting to get advertisements for retinol. Like, might. Might want to think about a 401k. I don't know. And then it was when we started, like, talking a little bit more seriously about, like, well, yeah, we want a family. And I was like, how the fuck would I have kids? I have, like, no stability whatsoever. And that was basically right when I sold yesteryear.

[A]

So what happens to the books that don't sell? Do you still have those novels?

[B]

Yeah, I hold them in my arms and I cry and I cry and I cry and I cry and then I hate myself and I hit myself with the papers and then I cry. And then I delete all the emails, and then I uncover the deleted emails, and then I. I delete the word document, and then I recover it. And then, yeah, and then I cry and I cry.

[A]

Sounds healthy.

[B]

That's a cycle.

[A]

You have told me before that writing fiction is very, like, pleasurable for you, that it feels very different from the other intellectual labor that you do, like, for this show. And I want to talk about what that feels like and when you first recognize that it felt that way. Because I feel like a theme that is kind of coming through is like, you may have had other inclinations of like, ooh, I saw a dolphin. What if I was a marine biologist?

[B]

What if I kiss it? Can I put my face up to this dolphin professionally,

[A]

Or like, I'm gonna take the LSAT and then never look at the score, which is. I'm sorry, that's genuinely psychopathic.

[B]

I know. It's a mental illness. It's a mental illness.

[A]

But so. So it sounds like this was something, though, where you wrote two novels that didn't sell and you wrote a fucking third. So talk about thrust. Talk about determination. Like, what was different about writing fiction?

[B]

Well, I think that's why I tried for so long, is because I was like, there's nothing I've ever done in my life where I've been willing to work this long on it. And I think that gets into the work ethic thing. Like, I don't Maybe part of my perspective of myself is that I'm not a person who can work on things they're not interested in. Hence me getting fired from freelance jobs all the time.

[A]

Oh, I honestly feel like I'm the same way. So I. I would agree with that.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that's probably why we both ended up being entrepreneurs, basically. I kind of hate that word, but it's true. I think this is really corny, but I've been thinking about this lately, and I feel like my relationship to fiction is probably similar to other people's relationship to prayer, where it's, like, something I do usually in the morning. I have a lot of ritual around it. It's a little bit subconscious, and it's something that kind of just like, squares my mind that I enjoy doing, but also just, like, makes the rest of my life pleasurable. Like, on the days where I am in a writing schedule. It's not just that I'm enjoying writing and I like writing fiction. It's that, like, everything else about the day feels better. And I feel like that's how people who have a relationship to religion that I admire talk about their relationship to religion, where it, like, centers them. It helps me have a better relationship with my partner. It helps me feel more, like, squared with diabolical lies. It's just, like, there's a rhythm to it that I think I became very addicted to when I was 22 or 23. And I also just think I was good at it. I always would fit in a class in high school and college. Like, I didn't think of myself as a fiction writer, but I liked creative writing, and I always had, like, a baseline ability to do it, which is also fun. I think we tend to gravitate towards things that, like, we just have a knack for. And so I think I liked it. I think it was something that I received positive affirmation for, and it was something that just squared me in my life in a way that made being alive more bearable. And then I think I became so invested in it that it was like, no, this has to happen. This is what my identity is. And then it didn't happen, and I had the total identity collapse.

[A]

You got the pellets from the universe

[B]

for writing the pallets from the universe.

[A]

I watched the end of the tour last night, and as I was watching

[B]

it, of course you did. As, like, a pregame for this.

[A]

As I was watching it, I was

[B]

like, you're just thinking about me.

[A]

So tomorrow I'm going to interview David Foster Wallace about his frame. Yeah, it was a pregame, and that's what he says. He says that writing was the only thing that he got pellets from the universe for. Ritual.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is the ritual like?

[B]

It's not fancy. This is definitely from my rowing days. I like to wake up at 5 or 6. I like a very early morning wake up. And I like. The best case scenario for my writing is that I wake up at five or six, I make a coffee, I read a little bit, and then once I'm like, really excited to write. I put a book down and then I write.

[A]

What do you read?

[B]

Whatever I'm reading at the time.

[A]

Like a novel?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, a novel.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I often will read. I won't read crap. And I like to read crap sometimes. And I'm not gonna say what I think crap is, but I like to sometimes read crap. I read what I don't think is crap. Like a book that has been kind of inspiring me lately. Or alternatively, like with yesterday, I didn't read anything. Cause I was just like, I can't fuck up my headspace, so I'll just. In the dark. Riley and I are both very like early and quiet workers. And so if I can get writing done for like an hour and a half, if I can get two hours, that's amazing. But like, even an hour or an hour and a half of like very quiet headspace, I feel like the early morning brain power is worth seven hours of later brain.

[A]

So it's a dark room.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You read something inspiring. Do you ever find that you have a hard time? You kind of actually just alluded to this with yesteryear, how you weren't reading anything because you didn't want to get out of that headspace. Do you ever find that you start to adopt other people's voice or style if you read someone else and then immediately start writing yourself?

[B]

If you don't have a clear idea of the project, then sure. But most of my writing has been long, long form fiction. So I'm usually like, you have the first awkward days of getting into a project, and then you're usually in it.

[A]

So why was yesteryear different? Why didn't you want to read anything?

[B]

I think it's also just like a function of the form. Yesteryear is a very voicey book. Not all books are voicey, but yesteryear is so fucking voicey that it was just kind of like you're just in Natalie's voice and every other book just feels like, well, that's Not Natalie's voice.

[A]

So you read until you feel excited to put the book down and write yourself encaffeinated. Oh, and caffeinated. Okay, what are we drinking?

[B]

A latte. An oat milk latte.

[A]

Iced or hot?

[B]

Iced. Usually iced, which I think a lot of people think is sacrilege.

[A]

I agree. I think that's disgusting. Let's talk about.

[B]

But I get big ice cubes at home. It's actually really wonderful. And I have. Okay, fun fact about me. I have corn cob useless candy teeth. They're super sensitive.

[A]

What?

[B]

I. They. They chip all the time.

[A]

We are giving me a definition of a corn cob useless candy tooth.

[B]

My teeth. If I could, without incurring like a lifetime of pain, yank all of them out and put fake teeth in today, I would because they're so sensitive. And so I get special straws so I can sip the ice without it being cold. This is what you're learning about me today. If I go to the cleaner to just get my teeth cleaned, I need like a horse Xanax because my teeth are so useless.

[A]

This is incredible. Okay, and then you write for an hour and a half. Give or take.

[B]

Yeah, If I can. Yeah.

[A]

How do you know when you're done?

[B]

I. I hate myself and I think everything's awful and I don't want to write another sentence.

[A]

Yeah, preach.

[B]

That's like prayer, right?

[A]

That actually sounds exactly like my relationship with organized religion. So I think the metaph dance, you said something in that. That kind of like wind up before we got into the ritual piece of this, about how there was a point at which you felt like you were having an identity crisis. Yeah, take us back to that.

[B]

It was the summer before I sold Yesterday, the summer of 2023. I was on submission for the second novel I had worked on. I had been working on that novel for five years.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Yep. I had switched literary agents.

[A]

Five years.

[B]

Yep. That had been a whole thing. Switching agents. And I went on submission and we sent the book out to a big list of big editors. And it was just like universally rejected. And all summer long, every three to four days receiving basically the type of note that an editor sends to an agent that is polite enough to maintain a good relationship while also being like, we don't want this book. And I think I was just like, God, I'm so sick of trying and failing. I was so tired of generating my own self momentum. And yeah, I was a good writer, but I also hadn't received like, literary affirmation. I wasn't winning a lot of Literary review placements. I was writing and writing, and it was never going anywhere. And that's also, like, very common with writers. So I was like, well, I guess I'm just another writer who writes for a decade and then doesn't end up publishing. Like, that's an incredibly common story. And so I just want to be clear. Like, I know that I'm young for an author. I think it was more so that I was like, that was the only thing I cared about for 10 years. I had put aside any career ambitions for this. And I was like, I can't keep doing this. As much as I love writing, I hate. I hate having a job that I don't feel like reflects me. And I'd been writing for aggregators, not writing for. I had been, like, basically having a series of jobs that I didn't feel like reflected my intellectual. And I felt like I was kind of cornered. Like, you and I both admire Gia Tolentino. And I would look at her career and be like, well, she graduated. She did fucking teach for America. She went straight to an mfa. She immediately started writing for the right publications. And that's how it happens. That is how you get a job at the New Yorker. And so I just felt like, well, you fucked yourself. Like, you don't have the right career. You're running out of time. I don't want to keep doing this thing of not getting anywhere. And I just really had, like, a totally identity dissolution. At the end of the summer, my agent and I called it, and we were like, let's just assume, basically, this book is dead on arrival. I love my agent. I still have her. And I was just like, yeah, I need to take a break. I need to stop writing. I really am unhappy. And, like, I need to take, like, a year or two and stop writing. And that winter was when I downloaded TikTok, kind of as, like, I think, a new creative outlet. And then again, I started writing yesteryear that January. So that was like the. Again, another crazy 180 in my life. This, like, hairpin turn.

[A]

Would you say it was a degree 180?

[B]

Are we gonna talk about that?

[A]

Well, we can.

[B]

Aggravators, baby.

[A]

You said, I can't keep doing this. But you did. As a student of hustle culture, podcasts, that is the pivot point in people's lives that I find so fascinating when someone is like, that was your nadir, right? As a writer, like, you were at the bottom. You were completely broken down. You felt rejected. You were Starting to have those big picture existential questions of, like, this book being rejected doesn't just feel like this book being rejected. It feels like my career as a writer being rejected. And like, what is it gonna look like if I am gonna have to come to terms with that? Because to use your term, you just put all your eggs in one basket for the last decade. So Even if you're 30 years old, 30's young, sure, but. But 10 years is in absolute terms, a long time to spend pursuing something that you are kind of time after time feeling like this just isn't gonna work and like, am I wasting my time? So you download TikTok, you start saying stuff online. Online you can just say stuff.

[B]

As we covered ad nauseam on this

[A]

show, you can just say stuff. And boy, were you saying stuff.

[B]

On the element of just saying stuff. It was me figuring out that you can go viral for, like, anything and like, anything. Wait, you mean like anything? And so it was the trad wife stuff. And then I got so involved in like, the Kate Middleton conspiracy theory stuff and my husband would watch me.

[A]

Dude, there is an alternate universe where you have a YouTube channel where you just talk about Erica Kurt conspiracy theories.

[B]

Hell yeah.

[A]

And you have millions of adoring fans, 100%.

[B]

And I will say I'm like, I wish I did that. I'd be making more money. No, I think it's like the intellectual version of that.

[A]

Anyway, this show is. This show is basically that. But for people who read, it's so true.

[B]

Yeah, it was really funny. And I did like a number of videos basically leaning into that time period when Kate Middleton was missing. And like, I'm going to be very clear, I don't feel bad about that. I don't tend to spend much time feeling bad about the Royal family. I was like a month into TikTok and I had like 50,000 followers and I was like, oh, this is kind of fucking terrifying. And also, like, what am I going to do with this? Like, I don't want to be a TikTok. TikTok influencer. Like, I don't wanna. Where is this going? I have no clue. It's like now I'm eating up all this time doing this. Fun fact. I'm currently locked out of TikTok and UTA is trying to help me and I like, can't get in. It's like all AI chatbots, I try to get a password recovery. They just keep sending me back to the beginning. I reached out to my agent and I was like, I need you to help me. I can't get into TikTok. And they just like, we can't get in touch with anyone.

[A]

This is Larry Ellison, just so you know. Yeah, they were like, you know whose account's getting.

[B]

Getting shut the fuck down?

[A]

This. This.

[B]

It served its course. It served its time for me.

[A]

Were you aware of the TradWife stuff before getting on Tik Tok? Or was TikTok how you were exposed to it?

[B]

It was kind of simultaneous. It was like, I downloaded TikTok. I was, like, making little videos. I'm not kidding. Maybe the second or the third one was my first trad wife. One of me just being like, why am I obsessed with these, like, honeybee ovens? This is so weird. I have a college degree. And it just, like, took off.

[A]

This was December, and then you started writing in January.

[B]

It was January, and I started writing at the end of January. Yeah, but TikTok timelines are like, every one day on TikTok is like, the equivalent of, like, 50 days in the real world.

[A]

What do you think it was about TradWife influencers that captivated you in that way?

[B]

I mean, they are diabolical lies. They sit at the intersection of every single possible conversation you can have about womanhood, and they're kind of just a metaphor. I don't think anyone is actually interested in, like, what a woman is doing in her house. You and I talk about this all the time. The soap ads in the 1900s.

[A]

Okay, so you start writing yesteryear end of January. I know you finished it in April.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your previous novel took five years. This one took two, three months.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

what point did you know yesteryear was going to work? And how was the experience of writing it different from the ones that you had written in the past?

[B]

Well, I will say the one that I worked on for five years was mostly just because, like, I had an agent then who didn't want to submit it. And so I was just, like, rewriting a book again and again and again. Yesterday was a first draft. So I then spent, like, a year and a half editing it. But I knew pretty quickly. I sent, like, probably 60 pages to my agent, and she was like, okay, this is going to sell. I didn't think it was going to sell the way that it did. I didn't think we were going to sell film rights. But very immediately, I could tell from her posture that it was like, okay, now we just have to position ourselves. I was introduced to a UK agent, and then we had foreign rights teams, and this was all, like, assembling while I was writing the book. And so that was like, oh, this is a very different feeling than the book I submitted before. And then there were a number of moments leading up to the auction where we basically, like, declined preempt offers, where I was like, oh, this is gonna sell and I'm gonna quit my job. And that was like, holy shit. Again, crazy. Still haven't processed it, but those moments were the ones.

[A]

How many countries did it sell in?

[B]

We just sold in Slovenia, so I think that we're. I think we're close to 30 now.

[A]

30 countries?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How big were the preempt offers that you were turning down that you were

[B]

like, oh, oh, more money than I had ever conceived of in my life.

[A]

The first time that, you know, your agent says, hey, we just got offered X and we're actually not going to take it because we think we could get more. What was that moment like?

[B]

This was in May, right before we went to auction. And my agent, again, I will only give one piece of advice because I don't really think. I don't really believe in advice. But I will say having a good agent is, like, the most important thing in the world. And the agent I have right now, like, I would fucking die for. And she called me and did exactly what you said. She didn't ask me. She was like, I just got this preempt and turned it down. Do you wanna know how much it was for? And I was like, yeah. And she told me, and it was again for, like, a multiple variable from what my annual salary was at the moment. And I was just like, are you sure you wanna turn that? Like, are you sure we can't call them back? And she was like, yep, just trust me, we're gonna turn that down. And so I went back and I was sitting with my friends. And one, I was with my very good friend Riley and with my very good friend's boyfriend, who I was just meeting for the first time. And I sat down at the table and I was like, got an offer for it. Just blurted it out. And they were like, I'm sure, I'm sure. He was like, whoa, weird chick. We're visiting. And of course, Riley was like, I think about Riley's position almost more than mine. Like, he supported me for a decade, believed in me for 10 years. We basically gave up on the dream together. And then he was like, bet on the right pony. And now you know. So I think he was, like, more shocked than I was, almost, hey, at

[A]

what point you've Said before that there was a time when he kind of told you, like, no, this is your Pollock in the warehouse moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What point in this timeline did he say that to you?

[B]

In 2020, in addition to working on that second manuscript, which I think I knew at the time, I was with an agent who just wasn't interested in selling it. So I was like, I've got to break up with this agent. That was another low moment. I started doing this thing called the COVID Stories, where I wrote a fiction story a week and shared it online based off of music, a lot of which was Taylor Swift. And again, another moment where I would be like, what the fuck am I doing? I'm just humiliating myself online. Like, this is so pointless. And that was when he was like, this is your Pollock in a warehouse. Like, you're doing the repetition. And I think that that was what eventually helped me write Yesteryear so quickly, because I was writing stories once a week.

[A]

So we are recording this the week before Yesteryear comes out, which makes this sort of a different experience from the Katy episode that we did, which was more of a retrospective of a big moment. It was like looking back on the last five years and like, okay, and now what? Like, what comes next? Whereas right now you're like, kind of on the precipice of your big moment. The thing that all of this has been leading up to, how are you psychologically stealing yourself for everything that is about to happen? Do you feel like you're bracing for.

[B]

Sure. Poorly. I'm bracing myself very poorly. It does not translate into the English language. I feel like I need to be like. Use the language of, like, the aliens in Arrival to communicate how I'm feeling. That is a great movie and great short story, Katy. Ted Chiang, story of your life. You gotta read it.

[A]

Wait, what?

[B]

Yeah, it was based on a short story by Ted Chiang.

[A]

Oh, my God. I didn't know that.

[B]

It's unbelievable. One of the best short stories of all time.

[A]

Being friends with you is sort of like getting an MFA for free.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Honestly, you've exposed me to so much interesting stuff.

[B]

Save the money, kids.

[A]

Speaking of you exposing me to interesting things, you told me to read. Although, of course you end up becoming yourself, which is a book that involves a long form, five day road trip style interview with David Foster Wallace right at the end of his Infinite Jest book tour. It was supposed to be published in Rolling Stone. It never was. And then after he died by suicide, it was published as this book. In it, he spends a lot of Time talking about how he feels. All the attention that he is getting for his writing is actually dangerous to his writing. And he says, the more exposure I, as a person get, the more it hurts me as a writer. And it occurs to me, as your friend who has seen you endure a lot of this up close, that the amount of sudden attention that you have received is probably really overwhelming. Like, on a human level, on a nervous system level. But do you think the exposure is something that makes you nervous about your writing in the future?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, yes, I think it's bad. I don't think it's good for an artist. I would be curious to know what you think about this, because you and I have both experienced this with diabolical lies. The idea of feedback, the noise, even if it's positive, this is an objectively ridiculous way to start a career. I am at this very moment, working on a second novel. It's very hard. It's very, very hard for me to separate myself and to just, like, feel alone. And it's also just, like, putting aside the writing. I think it's just bad for people. I don't think that it's healthy for people to have, like, a direct. A direct, like, water hose, like, fire hose of other people's thoughts about them. Again, positive or negative, it's not productive. Erecting the guardrails that allow you to think has been, like, one of the biggest challenges of the last year.

[A]

I think it would maybe surprise people to know that even the positive feedback can sometimes be challenging.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Will you say more about that?

[B]

So it's not like it happens all the time. I'm not, like, pretending I'm Ariana Grande. I have still been reading my DMs, and you don't read your DMs. And we've joked about that on the podcast before. I think that when people, like, shower so much positivity on you, you inevitably. I won't say you. I have started to be like, well, I'm just waiting for them to stop liking me. That's what it feels like. It's like, well, I'm just waiting for you to actually decide that you hate the book when you read it. Or, like, oh, there's so much anticipation for this book. Can't wait for, like, people to just tell me how disappointed they are. Or. Which is, of course, totally normal. Like, it's a book. That is something I can conceptualize when it's not my own life. But, like, deifying someone is always going to lead to dehumanization. It's always going to be a flip. Any stranger who deigns to say they really love someone they don't know is inevitably going to resent them. And so I think that I have been feeling for a while now as Diabolical Lies grows again. Also, like, the fact that this podcast has grown in tandem with yesteryear has been such a crazy thing where it's like two rocket ships going off at once and having them both basically break through the atmosphere at the exact same time. And that has been like, well, I'm just waiting for someone to. To announce that I actually suck, or. You know what I mean?

[A]

You're waiting to get woman.

[B]

I'm waiting to get woman. Yeah. And it's. And then you end up in this situation where, again, it's all in my head. And so I'm overthinking everything. And I. You know, any one person who messages me certainly isn't thinking about all of that baggage. But when you're receiving that all the time, it's so easy to waste a day just overthinking what someone said or, like, just feeling nervous, feeling like, oh, God, there's, like, a lot of people looking at me. There's so much expectation for this book. With expectation for any sort of quote, unquote, big book, comes the excitement to tear it down. I know that's gonna happen. I know that's part of the game. And also, I know that plenty of people can and should not like it. It's a book, it's a novel. It's not a policy platform.

[A]

I remember when I started at Morning Brew and felt very overexposed to the amount of people that were suddenly paying attention to what I was doing.

[B]

Yeah, we've talked about that.

[A]

Dan Toomey is a comedian, and he works at Morning Brew, and he's hilarious, but he also kind of blew up really quickly. And something that he said to me was, you shouldn't pay attention to the negativity. You also shouldn't pay attention to the positivity, because if you allow the good things that people say about you to make your day, you will allow the bad things to ruin it. And you kind of have to, like, rescind the significance that you are placing into other people's opinions of what you're doing. I'm really happy that he told me that, you know, so many years ago. And it. It genuinely does. It's something I think about probably every single week.

[B]

How long did it take you to actually incorporate that into your mental framework?

[A]

I'll Let you know when I do. I get a pit in my stomach every time I check the comments on an episode that I do. I have to. I have to psych myself up to look at the comments on Diabolical Lies, which is why some weeks I just don't. Because some I mentally don't feel that I have the capacity or I'm in the place to receive that information in a healthy manner and, like, metabolize it well and then move on. Especially if I feel like there's a lot of other things that I need to get done. It kind of feels you have to keep your brain clean for, like, okay, if I need to accomplish the things that I need to accomplish today, I actually, like, can't open that Pandora's box. But I don't love, again, even when it is all positive, I don't love the way that I can feel that little, like, flare of euphoria in my brain. Like, it will put me in a really good mood in a way that kind of scares me too. I actually think that in that movie he alludes this. In the end of the tour, he talks about this. That there is a certain self consciousness that it introduces that wasn't there before. And I think that that was something that I felt where, like, in the very beginning of my career, I wasn't really thinking very hard what I was writing or how I was doing it or what I was putting out there. It felt very, like, fun and generative and simple. As it has become capital M, capital C, my career. I find that the process of doing anything actually feels way more freighted with, like, self consciousness. The writing process itself sometimes feels more fraught because the specter of the audience is always right there. And so I think that that's where, like, the. The exposure to the people that are gonna read it and like it or hate it, I think only serves to make that self consciousness worse. And self consciousness is really bad for the work. Like, you're not gonna say anything new or interesting if you're thinking constantly while you're writing it about how it's gonna be received.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think yesteryear is a great example of this. Like, that is a very unselfconscious book. I did not write that book planning for everyone to like it. Like. Like when you think about the idea of trying to be everything for everyone and you end up being essentially nothing for anyone. Like, y. And again, I think that's also why I wrote it quickly. Cause I was like, I can't look this in the Eye. And I can't overthink it. But, like, I'm frankly surprised that it's gotten the support that it has. It's an absurd book. It's very specific. It's very mouthy. It's like there is so much about it that is not designed, I think, to be palatable for a large audience. And all of my favorite books are like that. And I would also say, like, I believe very strongly in, like, the covenant of reading a book and not having to think about the author. And I have a very complicated relationship with being someone who has a social presence. And as a book, I relate to Sally Rooney more and more every day where I'm like, I totally understand the idea of being like, I cannot be constantly talking about myself and thinking about my process and also doing the work. I'm almost afraid of analyzing it too much. And I do feel like a really torn thing about being someone who is like, quote unquote, perceived as an influencer, who's also a novelist, because I'm like, you shouldn't have to know anything about me. The podcast at least, is like an opt in thing. All of my favorite books, I don't know shit about the guy who wrote Cold Mountain, and I like it that way. I want yesteryear to stand on its own. I don't want people to think of me and my personality as being one to one with yesteryear, because it's not. And so that is also something that I think gets into the layers of like, performance and self awareness and all of that exhaustion.

[A]

Does it feel like you're channeling something from somewhere else?

[B]

Yeah, that. That's why I like, when I say it feels like prayer, it's like it's not conscious. Writing fiction is not a conscious thing. There's a Cormac McCarthy interview where he basically talked about the argument that, like, fiction is basically the bridge between the subconscious and the conscious. The subconscious mind is a far older tool and far more sophisticated than the conscious mind, let alone, you know, language is very recent in terms of human evolution. So I wasn't totally in control. When you edit, you have a little more control. But no, it's all. It's. It's not even. It's like a base instinct that you are not thinking about in advance of the sentence coming out. So I feel kind of fraudulent when someone asks me and then I like, kind of have to come up with something that sounds pretty smart about how something happened. And I'm like, honestly, just like, Cheez its and a latte I. I don't really have anything else for you.

[A]

I'm like, what size are the ice cubes?

[B]

They're big. That was what I wanted to talk to you about. At the jump, I had an ice latte with big ice cub melt as quickly. Oh, my God. Are you interested? Am I being interesting? I feel like I have no sense anymore.

[A]

Caroline, there is literally no one on planet Earth who is more interesting to me than you. Never second guess that ever again.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

That was a perfect segue, though. Just genuinely, because you're talking about kind of the wanting this book to stand on its own, wanting people to receive it as a novel for what it is and not have the baggage of your personhood attached to it, positive or negative. Right. Sally Rooney, one of the best millennial novelists, she doesn't have any social media presence. She is very private. She doesn't even attend her own book parties, as I understand it, because she doesn't want the focus to be on her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think that there is a gendered element to this, and I'm sure you could talk about this for a long time.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But young women who write things, we are very interested in the women I've read recently that, like, typically with women novelists, there's always an assumption that it must, on some level, be autofiction. Like, there's no way they could have just written something that, like, wasn't in some way biographical or autobiographical.

[B]

Women don't have creative powers. Yeah, right.

[A]

And the other day you sent me a Vulture article that asked, how should a white woman writer be? And it analyzed the political implications of two recent buzzy zillennial novelists, Madeleine Cash, who wrote Lost Lambs, and Honor Levy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To what extent do you think it is fair to infer a writer's politics from their characters or from their storytelling?

[B]

None. None. I think to none. Extent.

[A]

To what extent are you comfortable with people inferring your quote, unquote, politics from yesteryear?

[B]

Am I comfortable? None. I'm not comfortable at all. I have an awareness that people will. But, like, my politics have changed even. Even in the last two years. My politics are changing all throughout this project. Not in terms of, like, should women be able to get abortions? But my interest in, like, what I'm interested in as it pertains to politics. What does politics mean to me? Am I interested in talking about the next midterm? Or am I interested in, like, talking about how people are and how they behave and why they behave? This book is very political and it's very. About modern American politics. So I'm not trying to be like, meh. Like people are gonna make assumptions. Like, I think that's inevitable and that's fine, but it's not something that I look forward to and it's not something that. That I enjoy. It just seems like something that if I'm lucky enough and if I am able to write more books, my hope is that it will eventually become something that's like an amalgam as opposed to someone being like, yesteryear is a political manifesto. I'm like, it's not. It's a book, It's a novel. I hope you like it. But, like, it's not my treaty. It's not a treatise. It's just a book.

[A]

What do you think yesteryear says about your politics?

[B]

I would say the average person will probably view this as like a Handmaid's tale, Gone girl esque book about angry women in a patriarchal system. Maybe they'll get the hints of Marxism, maybe they won't. But that would be my guess. Even with the comps, that's where it's being placed is like in the women's political fiction, which is, again, I mean, those are incredible books. That's like an honor. I think those are amazing books. But, yeah, that would be my guess.

[A]

Something we're gonna. We're about to transition to talking about the book, but something.

[B]

Yeah, like, did you read it? Did you like it? Will you tell me? My God.

[A]

Something that I was actually very struck by was I feel like a lot of the preliminary, the ambient concern around the book, whether that's coming from you or the people who are marketing it, is like, oh, my God, is this going to end up on, like, is she going to get, like, lit up on Fox News for this?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And when I read it, I was like, I actually think she's embodying the. The conservative critique of liberal womanhood in an incredibly compelling and interesting way. And when I. Who was it that I spoke to? One of one of those dozen people that I lent the book to after I read it and said, you need to read this, Was like, I don't think conservatives are necessarily going to hate this.

[B]

I didn't either, to be honest.

[A]

Yeah, she's actually, like, covering a lot of the ground that they're frequently talking about.

[B]

I hope that that's true. Like, I actually. That was. I mean, and I think that if the book is as successful as we want it to be, I think that, like, someone will eventually pick it up Just because it's a talking point and like they won't have read it. And it's not like Fox News hosts read. I appreciate you saying that and I do feel that way. And I have had friends who are conservative and family members who are conservative read it and get a totally different statement away from it. I don't think that it represents my politics, but I think I wrote it. And so like, everything that's in my subconscious is of course, the book is the result of that. And I grew up conservative, you know what I mean? Like, so there is an element where it's like, it's not like I am. I think I feel pretty like not a part of any political party in America. I think you and I have like, consistent beliefs that pertain to leftism, but like, I don't feel aligned with any, with either of the two political parties. And I think that that was my experience in writing the book. I don't know if that'll be anyone's experience. Read.

[A]

I think that it's kind of a Rorschach test in that way. Like, I think that different people will receive completely different messages from it. And I think that it actually takes quite a talented writer to create something that depending on what angle you're looking at it from, it means something completely different. We've come to the critical moment of truth because I feel like I'd be remiss not to ask you this in an episode about your art and you as the artist, but should we separate the art from the artist?

[B]

Yes, we should. I think that the main reason, I think that beyond like my ethical beliefs about what we should take from our experiences with other people, I think people really misunderstand how fiction works. And I think that they really misunderstand the point of it. And I think that the whole thrust of whether or not you should care about the artist who wrote the book is to decide whether or not the artist is a good or a bad person. We have referenced. This is actually perfect. We've referenced David Foster Wallace, who abused his girlfriend, physical abuser, and Cormac McCarthy who after his death was found to have had an illicit relationship, potentially predatory relationship with a 16 year old. There are people who would say, well, you shouldn't read any David Foster Wallace anymore because he was an abuser. You shouldn't read Cormac McCarthy. Alice Monroe has come under this context and I just couldn't disagree with it more. I think first and foremost the idea that only people who are should write fiction or create art is something I think is worth interrogating. Like, for what? For what cause? What is the point of art? What is the point of fiction? Is it to teach us how to be better people who are the right people? I think that when you get into that, you start to play a game of, like, well, we used to think that people who were queer were perverted. Are they allowed to create art? If someone hurts someone else, are they an inherently flawed person, or are they someone who exists inside of a system and have all kinds of predispositions and are still capable of making something that impacts another person? I just think that it gets into this implication of what the function of art is and also how people are that I disagree with entirely. And I. Some of my favorite works of art have been written by people who have hurt other people, people who have been deeply imperfect. And that doesn't change the fact that their art has changed my life and, like, been a lifeline for me at certain points in my own life. Whether or not it has made me a better person is, I think, kind of beside the point. Also, I hit Katie. So if you like yesteryear,

[A]

that is, whenever anyone says they're uncomfortable with the fact that we both like Taylor Swift, I'm just going to get that sound bite on a. On a loop.

[B]

Yeah, get used to it. There's a lot of things about me that you'll probably be uncomfortable with if you. If you learn them.

[A]

It occurs to me that that case for separating the art from the artist could feel like it runs contradictory to something that we talk about a lot on this show, which is basically, okay, take the Epstein episode. Take the Kennedy episode. We were both basically making critiques that if you are a man who hurts a woman, it's not going to be disqualifying. It won't matter. Granted, we're talking in many cases about people that are making policy, and that is a different thing than creating art. But that feels like a contradiction to me. Does it feel like a contradiction to you?

[B]

No. I think when we talk about people being. Being properly punished or receiving appropriate justice for what they do to one another, that is the matter of the legal system. It's my personal opinion that someone who behaves like Epstein does should go to jail or, you know, I guess I shouldn't be carceral. So, like, should, I don't know, be, like, shot in the head or whatever? I don't really know what we would

[A]

do to Epstein, but if he wrote a good novel, we would.

[B]

I want to actually say, like, yeah, I think People should be able to make art, even if society, like, decides that they're irredeemable. There are actually a lot of programs that work in prison systems, both for men and for women, that introduce them to art. They have book clubs. I've been looking into attending them. There's a program that Julia Fox started at Rikers where there's a women's book club, and they do creative writing, and they have authors come and visit. And I found out about it, and I was like, I want to be a part of that. I want to donate to that. I want to support that. If one of those women was convicted of child abuse or convicted of grand larceny, or convicted of any number of crimes, and then went on to write an incredible short story story, I would be fighting for that to be published in the New Yorker. I think that we think that people who behave in irredeemable ways consist of such a small percentage of the population that we won't lose anything by casting them aside. And I think that that is, like, again, a woeful misunderstanding of how people are. I think most humans do something in their lives, if not many things that are, if they were to be found out, perceived as irredeemable. And that's, like, actually, like, a fundamental element of being a human. People should make art. And people are usually also irredeemable in some way. Again, if Epstein had been properly convicted of his crimes in 2002, do I think he would have been a good fiction writer? No. But would I have been okay with him writing fiction? Yes.

[A]

So is it that you think art has a redeeming quality or that these are totally separate conversations entirely?

[B]

I think that art is the most basic expression of humans being humans. And I think you can get into the whole game of monetization and, like, commercialization and how people are paid and all of that. But art is people trying to communicate in a way that basically goes beyond language, even if it is in language. And the idea of cutting that practice off to the people that you, whoever the proverbial you is, decide are the right people, then I think that you are, like, limiting your own experience with other people. And so, to me, it's like that art is worth so much more than the person, the one person who made it.

[A]

All right, let's talk about yours.

[B]

I feel like I'm gonna get, like, arrested at the end of this episode or something to make this. To make this metaphor really check out.

[A]

I would recommend if you have not read yesteryear yet and you intend to Read it. Which you should. You should pause this episode here and you should wait to listen to this part until you've read it, because I don't want to give anything away. Cards on the table. I'm a little nervous to talk to you about it.

[B]

What?

[A]

Because first of all, the experience of reading it was so surreal.

[B]

Yeah, you were waiting for a long time. But that's what was so terrifying to me too, is that freaked me out that you had anticipation of something.

[A]

Well, but just to read this book knowing that it came, like, out of your brain. I respect you and admire you on a level that I. We've. We've covered is sexually confusing for me at times. And to read. To read yesteryear, knowing that you invented it from thin air was just like, I don't know how she did this. It's like watching someone do magic that I'm like, I don't want her to think that, like, I didn't get something.

[B]

No, please talk about it. I'm so tired. I am certain at this point in my life that everything I say is the stupidest thing I've ever said. So, like, please, for the love of God, tell me how you feel about it.

[A]

Yeah, I thought it was incredible. I thought it was absolutely incredible. And before I get into my, like, plot and character specific questions, have you gone through periods of feeling absolutely sick of the book since finishing the first draft two years ago?

[B]

No, I love the book.

[A]

You do? Okay. That's so interesting to me. I feel like the duration that you have to care about the same story, worry, like, I feel like I would get bored. I feel like I'd be like, oh, I'm so tired of talking about this.

[B]

The press is a different thing. But like, the book, I love yesteryear. And I also, like, I have a healthy relationship. Like, not all the time. Sometimes you're working on something and you're like, this is. What am I doing? Like, this is awful. That happens, like, you know, every other day. But by and large, I think yesterday is the best thing I've ever written. And I think it was like, the biggest swing of my life. I'm so proud of myself. I wrote a book for me was like, the most ambitious thing I had ever done in a vacuum, without having to think about the world. I'm like, I did that. That's crazy. I'm so proud of myself. So it's when I have to take in every other person's perspectives, because that doesn't mean, like, oh, I'm the shit. It's just I've been writing for so long and I love writing. And so to feel a moment where it's like, oh, I just got back better. That was like a. Just such an exciting feeling.

[A]

Okay then my first question is, what

[B]

gives you the right.

[A]

Who is Natalie and why do I like her so much?

[B]

Oh my God. That was okay. So of like the very few things you said to me when you were reading, you were like, am I supposed to not like Natalie?

[A]

I'm like, kinda lover.

[B]

Yeah. Natalie's the protagonist of the novel Natalie Heller Mills. I like to think of her as an antihero because that's what we call men who are are nightmarish, but still the main character. I think the term that other people use is like unlikable or a villain.

[A]

I went into it expecting not to like her because that was really all I had heard. And like 50 pages in, I'm like, Natalie kind of fucks. I'm like, why? Why is everyone bagging on Natalie?

[B]

Yeah, I obviously feel the same way. I love Natalie. I mean, I think she behaves in like myriad horrible ways. She's bigoted, she's racist, she's close minded, she's a very negligent mother. But she's also deeply ambitious and funny and she's like constantly has her claws out and is trying to get out of a backed corner that she has found herself in often of her own accord. And she's just such a pleasure to be around. For me as a writer, there was

[A]

something that just felt so fresh about her. And I think that when you say it wasn't a self conscious being, I think that like hearing it in the voice of this person who is, to your point, so flawed, so flawed. It's like you actually feel like you are in someone's fucked up inner monologue in a way that just felt really kind of thrilling to me.

[B]

Well, and I think one of the main themes of the book is performance. And so there are so many different ways in which she is basically hiding versions of herself in a way that all of us do. No humans are actually politically correct in their own mind. No one actually operates under the guidelines of society in their own mind that we have. And performance is often a good thing. We all agree, like, hey, you shouldn't bang your sister even if you have desires to. And so you're not going to bang your sister.

[A]

There is no sister banging in yesteryear.

[B]

Just to be very clear, there's no sister banging yesteryear. But I just mean to amplify My point, there are plenty of people in the world who at some point, point, have thought about banging their sister. But, like, we have so many layers that just protect ourselves so that we can continue to exist in society, let alone being an influencer, let alone whatever. And so the fun for me was having this main character who is always performing, and then she drops it, and it's like, oh, shit. This is someone who is, for a single moment, being completely honest. And the honesty is usually kind of nightmare marriage.

[A]

So I know that this probably sounds like it kind of goes against something that I said earlier, which was, people always assume that women novelists are somehow writing about themselves. That's not what this question means.

[B]

Great.

[A]

But how much of yourself do you feel you put into Natalie?

[B]

I mean, I guess all of it.

[A]

So you want to bang your sister?

[B]

This is actually a book about sister banging, and we've put that on an embargo. Virgo. So no one can talk about it until you buy it. I don't know what parts of myself I put into her, but I will say, like, the things I admire in her are things that I want to cultivate in myself. I think you and I both really respect when women exhibit masculine traits. And Natalie exhibits a lot of masculine traits, traits that we code as masculine. She's selfish, she's ambitious. She has this very specific moral framework where, like, she thinks she should be able to change the world, but there are only a few avenues for her to do so. And so that type of naked hunger is something I really admire. And I think it's something that I probably have in myself and that I also honestly see in you. And I think that that's also why we like each other.

[A]

What else do you like about me?

[B]

I literally, just watching a little smile, being like, oh, she's going to flirt.

[A]

Okay, then let's talk about Caleb.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How did you develop Caleb's character? There is something about his character arc and, like, Natalie's reactions to him that was so. At one point when he, like, wants to be a kindergarten teacher, and she's like, no. She's, like, pushing him into the manosphere in a way.

[B]

She is.

[A]

And that was something that I thought was so. I was like, oh, my God, she's a fucking genius. Like, what a fun way to complicate this, like, very clean and tidy narrative. And it was just not at all how I thought we were gonna get the husband character in this book. He surprised me on such a deep level. Where did Caleb come from?

[B]

Okay, so that's an Interesting question, because that was a little bit conscious because as I was writing Caleb, Caleb was kind of like almost a shadow figure in the first draft. He was like a husband. But, like, I really just wrote it was almost like a skeleton thing to get to the end, end. And I was still trying to figure him out. Like, he was kind of hard because Natalie is such an intense character and so, like, having someone balance her. And so I think it was as I was realizing that, like, oh, Natalie is such a broken caricature of a gender norm in her own head. And so the idea of her marrying a man who is also just not up to the task of fitting the gender stereotype. And I just became obsessed with him being like, a little plush bitch. And he's also, like, a little bit anti capitalist in a way. Like, he's. He's like, we have money. Why do I have to work? And like, there's a rationality to that. There are redeeming qualities about him at the beginning. And I feel like if he had married someone else, he could have just been like a nice, lazy guy who, like, hangs out with the kids and, like, plays video games, but, like, really doesn't hurt anyone. I just loved the idea of pairing Natalie's ambition and acidic nature with someone who's just so sweet and pliable. There is obviously a character who's more of like a traditional patriarch, but I didn't want him to be the immediate villain, and I wanted to complicate the idea of her being entirely controlled by a husband.

[A]

Oftentimes, in these stories of trad wives and traditional womanhood and gender norms, women are the victims. They're helpless. They have no agency. They need to be saved. They're being oppressed by these men. And in a way, you get the of epsteinification of the male figure in these stories where it's like, we make him kind of larger than life and powerful and domineering, and he has all the agency. I think it's interesting to push back on that in such a way and go, well, no, what if she really is terrible? Especially with the way the book was marketed and the way it's been positioned to be immediately legible to people that are familiar with this narrative. Not to draw such an explicit comparison, but, like, you and I have talked a lot about the Sunday Times profile of Ballerina Farm and how Daniel Nealman kind of comes across like a monster in this. And it's so easy to cast the husband in that light. Like, I think we were all very, like, ready and willing to Be like, yep, checks out. And in many of these marriages, the men are monsters. But it was kind of fun to get a trad wife story where the woman was the monster. As the story goes on. He's not so sweet and innocent and pliable by the end.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But he certainly doesn't start that way. And he's not the engine that drives her down that path.

[B]

He's not so redeemable that he, like, helps steer her out of it. Like, he's pretty stupid. But, yeah, I mean, I think something that we do talk about in the show a lot is, like, there are plenty of women who are foot soldiers for the patriarchy, Phyllis Schlafly style. Very intentionally and very effectively shaping American towards aversion that subjugates women. And so it wasn't necessarily intentional. It was just that when I found Natalie's voice, I was like, well, this is a woman who has to be at least partially in control. And so I think the debate over how much she is in control, I will just speak for myself. Was something that I grappled with the whole time. Cause there are a number of forces that conspire around her. The more I got to know her, the more I was like, dude, a husband is not gonna, like, easily wrangle her. This is someone who is in charge, but who has to kind of hide it. And it just became more interesting for me as a writer.

[A]

Yeah. I think maybe the word that I would use is, like. It felt transgressive in a way to, like the genre. And I really enjoyed that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The scene where Caleb is in his little she shed watching his little right wing streamer, and they. They find Natalie's Instagram and they talk about her, and then her. Her following explodes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she's, like, watching the stream and they're like, this is a classic American woman. And what's so funny about it is she's obviously living the life that they are dissecting. And they're like, oh, my God, look at this traditional woman. She bakes all their own bread. And she's like, I don't bake our bread. Like, she's like, actually really bad at baking bread. And that's kind of one of the jokes. And that scene, was that in the original draft, or did that get added later as part of the Caleb development?

[B]

The ghost of that scene was always there. How she became famous. That was always how she was gonna become famous was that social media moment. Everything in, like, the back third was hugely fleshed out because that was like. Like Every scene in the first draft was 400 words. It was very quick, and it was just getting it all out. So I. I definitely. I'm sure, fleshed that out quite a bit.

[A]

Was it intentional to kind of make Caleb a really pliable character, to kind of show the type of. Of guy that ends up getting really sucked into this stuff? Or was that more subconscious or, like, I'm reading that in after the fact?

[B]

I think there probably was an intentionality to it. I very much like the conspiracy theory thread. The conspiracy theories. And all of it so funny. Was definitely added in, like, in the editing phase. And I think I liked the idea. It was also just something where I was like, I realized I needed a little bit more to be happening between him and Shannon. And so that was something that I feel like I was trying to tease out, where it was like, okay, instead of them just having a brief foray with this world, let's have him become

[A]

more involved on the Shannon of it all. The book was actually more sexually charged than I expected it to be. And you play with power dynamics a lot, both human and spiritual. And, like, at one point, I thought

[B]

you were gonna say human and both. Vine.

[A]

That too. At one point, it's heavily implied that Natalie's, like, horny for Jesus. Like, she's, like, talking about her, like, prayer, and she's, like, getting turned on. At another point, she describes having this sort of weird, like, psychosexual relationship with Caleb's father, who is the more kind of traditional family patriarch.

[B]

I'm so curious, since we've all. We always talk about our Catholic sex guilt. I'm so curious what you're reading was.

[A]

That's what I'm about to. I'm like, what was that? What are we doing here? Did you have Catholic sex guilt writing this? You have less Catholic sex guilt, I think, than I do. Maybe because I think it's a race

[B]

to the bottom, sweetie.

[A]

But. But I think you're really good at identifying these kind of subversive sexual themes. And like, for example, in the Kennedy episode, I played you the Mimi Alfred interview where she. She is expressing that she felt in some ways abused and in other ways was enjoying the power dynamic. And you said, I want to allow for that. I want to leave space for the fact that this stuff is very complicated and that power dynamics. And this is. I think I'm pulling this from a different episode. I don't remember which one. This kind of goes to show how often it comes up. Power differentials can be erotic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that that can all feel very abstract. And I think when I was reading these carriers, Natalie, like, hates Caleb's father and, like, tries to manipulate him in some ways and tries to kind of go toe to toe with him, but then also is kind of like, has this weird sexual. It's like she's not attracted to him, but it's like their dynamic takes on an almost like, psychosexual quality to it at times. And so it felt like you were making some of these things literal. How did you think about the sexual charge in this book? At what point did that come into the draft? What function was that serving for you while you were writing it?

[B]

All of the sex was first draft. And I think that that was essential because for everything that was first draft was instinct. It was just like, don't think about it too hard. You can always edit it later. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. If it works, it works. Just get to the end. I genuinely don't think that there is one right way to read this in particular about the sex. Like, it doesn't mean one thing to me.

[A]

That means my interpretation was wrong. She's like, gent, you know, there's no one right way. I don't know that I describe it the way that you describe it.

[B]

No, I actually think. I think you're completely correct. And I think that you're noticing something in me that is totally true, which is like, I'm fascinated by sex. Sex is also not the same as pleasure. And so that is also something that I think about quite a bit. And I think even what we learned in our. Our heterosexuality episode, the tragedy of heterosexuality, the idea that it's a very recent phenomenon for the idea of, like, heterosexual sex with your partner to be connected to pleasure. Like, I think Natalie would be very much living in the world of, like, no, the only correct sex is reproductive sex. And so I think, like, her lack of knowledge about how the body works, about how her own body works, combined with her kind of inability or refusal to engage with her own life on terms of pleasure and joy. Like, she's not a pleasurable person. She's not a sensual person. Her relationship to the world as well as herself is very cold. It's very analytical. And so I. I really liked the idea and just kind of went with the idea of her relationship to pleasure and to sex kind of basically being explored in ways that she doesn't really interrogate and also in ways that don't really make sense to her. She kind of has, like, A pseudosexual relationship with a number of characters in the book. Even some of the women. I feel like she kind of has a pseudosexual relationship to. Like, she has a weird moment with Shannon. She has, like, this predator's perspective of a lot of other women, especially at college. I think sometimes it's sex, sometimes it's pleasure. There's a scene where she has an orgasm, and I don't even think she really is aware that it's an orgasm. And this idea that, like, the only form of pleasure that's appropriate is, like, communion with the Lord. And so that starts to get kind of, like, intermingled with sexual pleasure, where it's like, well, if this feels good, either I'm bad, or I must be having a moment of, like, religious feeling. And also in an environment where the whole book is absurd, like, so much is nonsensical or hyperbolic. I liked the idea of having these little flashes that never. I didn't ever want to tie the thread. I just wanted it to be a thing that, like, people can think about, and there is intention behind it. Like, there are consistencies with Caleb's erections or his lack of erections and those kinds of things. It just felt like anyone's sexual experience will probably impact how they engage with it.

[A]

I'm like, so how does it feel to be promoting a life of sin, Caroline? Impure thoughts?

[B]

Your little blouse. Your little prairie blouse.

[A]

Yeah. There is a twist toward the end of the book that threw me for a loop, but it also felt like it was kind of open to plausible deniability or, like, multiple interpretations. And so I want to ask you about it specifically. It's the moment when Natalee's former nanny Shannon does this tell all interview on the news and basically claims that Natalie assaulted her. How much of that moment or that twist is intended to explain kind of what preceded it?

[B]

What do you think? Because you're asking questions, but, like, what's your best guess?

[A]

There was, like, two things that it made me think of. Like, the first is Natalie queer? And, like, that's a driving force here. But I also was like, well, but, like, sexual assault's really not about pleasure. It's not about, like, wanting to, like, feel, you know, romantically close to somebody. It's about power. So was it. Was it just, like, a power thing for her?

[B]

You're not wrong. And you're not. You didn't miss. It's meant to be a little vague and to be like, kind of like, did that happen? And again, up to Interpretation. But, like, I'll give you my perspective. I think they have have an altercation in Shannon's room, and they experience it in very different ways. Shannon's woke. Natalie is conservative. There is like, an altercation where Natalie is basically physically attacking her and Shannon isn't fully dressed. And I think that Shannon's experience of that and Natalie's experience of that are very different. And then I think that each of them following that moment have a number of incentives for how they should recollect on that.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

But the extent to which, like, what is the truth of what happened in that room? I think is almost. To me, when I was writing, it was almost irrelevant because, like, the experience of being violent, there is clear violation. There is penetrative, non consexual rape. That is a clear violation. There are a lot of forms of assault that are much less clear. And that is where I slot that interaction where you have, like, a moment that is objective. You have a moment that's, like, objectively not okay of Natalie kind of attacking her employee. But whether that was sexually driven, I think is kind of unclear to both of them.

[A]

We are only getting the story from her point of view, right? So there is kind of that issue of, like, unreliable narrator. Do we trust what she's saying or not? But I didn't think to not trust her until the interview. And I think that's maybe, like, narratively why that threw me for such a loop. Because when Natalie is describing what happened, it's like she physically assaulted her. She accosted her. But when Shannon is like, no, that was sexual. I'm like, oh, yeah? Did Natalie, like, not even know that that's what she was doing? Or are we just not hearing it from her because she hasn't even, like, grappled with it?

[B]

I think we don't know. There are elements of Natalie that I don't know. I don't understand Natalie's sexuality entirely. I don't think Natalie understands her own sexuality entirely. And it was very important to me as I was writing the book to really be in her head and not be analyzing her as I was writing, that was not accidentally vague. That was a moment where I was like, well, I think a lot of things could have happened in there, and I don't think Natalie will ever understand it. And so, like, we have to keep it like that. We have to stay within her perspective, which allows for a lot of possibilities for what happened in that room.

[A]

So we've kind of talked about this a little bit so far, but was the plot in the original draft, you've said that it was kind of skeletal and then you, like, fleshed it out over time. Time. Was it more or less preserved, or were there any major, like, deviations from what you had originally intended?

[B]

I don't think there were any major deviations. There were a few, like, side quests that were fleshed out. Like, the children in both timelines were fleshed out quite a bit and like, their ensuing, you know, moments of conflict and tension were fleshed out. The twist remained the same, but how we got there and, like, working towards this more. More, I hope a more complicated understanding. The main twist of the book I knew from the first day, but getting there and making it work was something that took two years. So, like, that was something that I talked about with my editor, Jenny. That was something I talked about with every editor in the auction. How can we do this? How can we create Easter eggs? How can I layer this and make it work as well as possible so that if anyone ever wants to read it again, they feel rewarded? And it's like, okay, cool. All of these scenes feel a little bit different now that I know what's actually happening in the house. That was really important. And that was not in the first draft. Like, it was much more one sided. And I was like, I really want this to feel like something that deserves, that is worthy of at least anyone who wants to do a second read.

[A]

Can you give us an example of an Easter egg that was added later?

[B]

I mean, all of her interactions with Maeve and Mary really were related after, like, pretty much everything Mary says. Mary going out into the woods and then having that kind of side plot where, like, Natalie kind of has a spiritual premonition. That was a little, like, side thing that was added in later. There were a lot of, like, little twists that were added so that we could just, like, get to the end. Like, figuring out how to get there was the primary challenge.

[A]

Why was that the twist? It feels like there are so many different explanations that could have, like, you could have invented anything. Yeah. So the ultimate explanation for why she is quote, in the 1800s. Why is that what you wanted it to be?

[B]

It was just right. It was just the only one I wanted. It was the only one I was interested in. It was the only one that seemed like it would lead to, like, the narrative structure I wanted of how the parts are titled and how they kind of come together. And I think that it allowed for an opportunity to have, like, a final word from the children and not from her, which I really liked. I also think that like people, you know, this is, this is a preference thing. But I knew as soon as I started writing Natalie that she is not a person who is going to change. And that is something that is like kind of, I think, a little bit heterodox in literature. Like you want people to learn and grow and she really doesn't. Natalie does not become a different person. If anything, she. She just digs in her heels and becomes more and more and more of kind of the worst parts of herself. And so with that in mind of that character trait, I was like, well, that lends itself to like certain outcomes and other non outcomes. Most of the book I was writing, I knew the twist before I got the feedback from my agent or any of that.

[A]

Ooh, really?

[B]

Yeah, like on the first day I emailed her being like, this is what I want. This is the title and this is the twist. Again, I was still at the point where I was like, fuck it. Here's another creative project. If it doesn't work out, you're just 30 days older.

[A]

I feel like I have changed a lot in the last two years. I feel like the way that I approach ambiguity questions. The Zeitgeist has changed in the last two years just by the nature of doing this project together. I think you've influenced my thinking a lot. And it might be that because. Because you wrote it and then you had to edit it for over a year. Any sort of change has already been captured in this novel because more of you went into it after the first draft. Is there anything now in retrospect, when you read it back, that you're like, oh, I wish I had played with that differently?

[B]

I mean, I'm sure I would write it totally differently now, honestly, than I would then.

[A]

Okay, tell me why. That's really interesting.

[B]

I don't think there's like a specific reason. I mean, I would have it be even longer.

[A]

Longer.

[B]

I love a long book. Yesterday is like one hundred and twenty something thousand words. That's long. That's already longer. I would have had a million side quests if I could have, like, I would have really, really entered that world and given like each child a weird little side quest. Like, I tried to fit as many as I could in. But like, I think if I were to write it again, if or if I were given the opportunity to write another version, I would trust myself even more and I would make it 30% longer and I would build out both worlds even more and I would just trust that people are Gonna be interested to get to the end.

[A]

I was sad when it ended. I did not want it to be over. There were a couple like Mary in particular. I was like, oh, my God, I wanna know. I want, like, interspersed chapters of, like, Mary's read of all of this.

[B]

Yeah. I have played with writing the book of Mary at some point and, like, doing the entire story all over again from the perspective of the children.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And just, like, having that flip, I think, would be so. I mean, that's something maybe I'll just, like, do on my own at some point. And whether I publish it or not, who cares? Yeah. I loved the world. I still loved the world. Like, it was so much fun. There were so many opportunities. It was obviously, like, stressful and difficult and all of that stuff, but there were just so many ideas all the time, given the conceit. And it was just like. That felt like such a rare gift to be like, well, what if this happens? Or, like, what if this happens? And that was where I had my great editors, Jenny and Katie, like, be. To. To be like, that's a great idea. Try that out. Or, like, well, let's just keep the story rolling. And, you know, obviously I trusted them and it turned out incredibly. But if I could do it again just for myself, I would make it twice as long. Every time I bring it up, I'm like, 30% longer, 40% longer, twice as long.

[A]

I think something that is interesting to me about your decision to write this book and also what you're telling me right now about how you loved that world, it feels to me like there is a part of you that on some conscious or subconscious level, really understands the allure or the romance of the fantasy that these people are selling.

[B]

Yeah, I think I do.

[A]

And maybe feels a little attracted to it yourself on some level, but then you have the instinct to, like, interrogate and kind of, like, tease it apart.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's true. I began talking about tradwife discourse because I was interested in it. Because I was like, why do I like this so much? Like, I think. I think, yes, you're in many ways, just on a literary level level, is the closest I will ever get to writing a Western. So it's just fun in that way to just be like, this is my Western. This is my, like, Wild West Americana moment. And that was just fun for me. It was fun to have a vehicle to talk about so much American nostalgia. So that was part of it. But, yeah, I mean, I think you and I talk about this a lot. I totally understand why it's appealing. It's a beautiful image. It's fun. It's like. It's romantic. So many movies and television shows and books are about this romance of not just homesteaders, but cowboys and the Wild west and do it yourself. Conquering, conquering fertile land, aka, like, mowing down indigenous tribes. It's romantic. It's Yellowstone. We do this story again and again and again and again, and it's always bullshit, but it's really fun. And so there was something that almost felt like having my cake and eating it, too, where you get to kind of lean into the fantasy. But also, so much of the book is about deconstructing the fantasy, but I still got to have my little morphine drip of, like, the visuals and the aesthetic and all of the reasons why you can't really look away. That was kind of like a little bit of, like a doing my drugs while also getting clean. You know what I mean?

[A]

Cause there's such a darkness to it. Yeah, but you're right. It's kind of the same reason why I feel like I really am kind of taken with, like, the secret lives of Mormons.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[A]

Why? I actually, like, can't stop watching that show. It's like, I can be very critical of it and can see everything that's wrong with it, and yet, at the same time, I'm still sitting there watching every episode.

[B]

I think it's intoxicating. And I also think that when we grow up on certain visuals, it's like the Disney princess with the dead parents.

[A]

And it, like, taps into something.

[B]

Yeah, it just taps into something that feels like equal parts comfort and aspirational. And I feel that I grew up in America. I grew up idolizing Little House on the Prairie. I grew up watching the Duggars. I mean, I know people will reference. I've actually gotten Ruby Frankie more than Ballerina Farm, which I think is really interesting.

[A]

I've seen that. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. But anyways, I understand people will reach for those influencers. But, like, again, I think something we've explored on this show is that it's always a new one. It's always the same thing. It's a rotation. It's never ending. And it is this visual of a certain family with a certain lifestyle representing certain American ideals. And it never ends, changes. And I think that that is equal parts comforting and terrifying. And that's probably what inspired me to write the novel the way that I did.

[A]

And I think that there is, like, an escapism that I even feel I don't have children, but, like, watching the Tradwives being like, oh, to be so patient and to have so much capacity and to make it look so easy and to have so much control. And there is something perversely comforting about just for a second, like. Like escaping the neurotic interiority of my own life. It is intoxicating, even if you know it's fake. And I think that that's honestly to bring it back to Mormon wives for a second. I think that that's partially why that show is so fascinating to me personally, because on the surface, all of those things are true. These women are so together. They have everything. They. They're like 30 years older, in their 20s. They have the kids.

[B]

Oh, my God, Katie, they're like 20.

[A]

The house. They're gorgeous. They have a big friend group, right? And then, like, as the series has gone on and as it's unraveled, it's like, oh, their marriage is falling apart. She has an eating disorder. She was sexually abused as a child. This one's baby daddy died in a car accident. Like, their lives are imploding. But on the surface, it's very shiny, happy people.

[B]

You know, what it makes me think of is severance as well. Like, what you're talking about, that. That is the brilliance of severance, is that there is, as much as the conceit of that show is, in some ways, like, yes, you're absolutely absurd. There is something about it that makes sense. Like, there is something about it that we kind of inherently understand. The idea of turning off your brain, turning off your brain to half of it. And then there are the scenes inside of Severance where the innies will basically get information about their outies that are obviously bullshit. Where it's like, your innie is really good at baseball. Your innie gets straight A's. And you're watching these actors again, brilliant, equal parts. Find it ridiculous and love it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like they know it's bullshit, but they don't want that little moment to end of hearing about their outies. This is where I get back to, like, being a human means being irredeemable. You are never perfect. And you are. You're living in a culture where, like, probably a lot of your thoughts and impulses and perspectives, you know, are wrong. And so just watching a version of people, People, that is how you think people should be, which is flawless, essentially even. Or, like, flawed, but, you know, clean house, flawed but white furniture. It just feels good.

[A]

Oh, that's so interesting. It's like. There's, like, a coherence.

[B]

It looks like how it should be, and your life is how it isn't actually. Right. And I think that it's just really cathartic.

[A]

That's the fantasy. Right. Is a world where it all aligns and it all kind of makes sense.

[B]

Totally. Totally. Yeah.

[A]

So on that note, you're pregnant.

[B]

I am pregnant, and you are the father.

[A]

I'm so excited to be a dad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you nervous at all about the way in which your own personal life is about to be woven into the narrative of this book through this precedent cycle?

[B]

Yes. I'm very instinctual with, like, what I share of my life and what I don't. That's true on this podcast. That's true on social media. There are things that I talk about that other people would never talk about publicly, and then there are things that other people share publicly that you couldn't waterboard out of. Me. I never, never wanted to be pregnant on tour, ever. I did not want to be showing. I very much tried to play plan it to not happen this way, and turns out God is real, folks, and he had other plans. So that has been a real experience of letting go of just being like, I will try to control this in the ways that are in my control, and I will acknowledge that there are things that I cannot control. And also, not to get corny, but I am also in charge of not stressing my baby out.

[A]

You're like. You're like, I don't want my baby. I'm like, our baby.

[B]

So that is something that has made it easier for me in some ways. I think I would be torturing myself more if it was just me. But now I'm like, well, I don't want my body to be stressed. I don't want stress hormones going through my body. And so how can I minimize that on any given day? Oh, my God. Stop smiling like that. Fucking turn your camera off if you're gonna smile like that. Don't look at me ever again. I mean, you've known about this for a long time now. I didn't even know if I was gonna announce it. I'm comfortable talking about it with people. Like, when I run into, like, when I talk to reporters, like, when I'm on the road, if someone brings it up organically, like, yeah, I'm. I talk about it with everyone in my life. Like, it's very much. It's so much fun talking to other women about this kind of stuff. Like, it's been such A buoying force in my life how so many women like you have such immediate moments of intimacy when you're trying to get pregnant and then when you're pregnant and then when you have kids. And I have cherished that, but I have no interest in exploiting my pregnancy, in having my child be like a thing that is commodified on this tour. And also like in having Natalie's relationship to motherhood and Natalie's relationship to children be something that is then transcribed onto me or vice versa. Yeah, that is a separate thing. That is a book about a fake person. That's what yesteryear is. And so, so I've had to really just be like, everyone's gonna have feelings. And yeah, don't need any. Don't need any advice, don't need any tips. Just gonna. Just gonna keep chugging along.

[A]

And I think you're handling it all really, really, really well. I know that you feel like you're in a fishbowl, and I know that this process has been just destabilizing on so many levels, but I think you really deserve the flowers that you're getting and are going to continue to get. I think you're a brilliant writer. I think this book is incredible.

[B]

And you're not gonna woman me.

[A]

I will bomb the home of anyone who tries. The first negative review of yesteryear.

[B]

Katie's gonna firebomb.

[A]

You're getting drone striked. Okay, Drone struck. Drone struck fucking lightly. As a person in the world, it's just gratifying to get to watch somebody who's so good at what they do and is. Has just so much to offer, like, actually getting recognized for it. And I know that, like, the world of publicity and marketing is so chew you up, spit you out. The instinct to, like, not allow your pregnancy to become part of the storyline or to be commodified in that way is so important because I think that that is obviously what's like, that's what's going to happen. That's what people are going to try to do. And so the instinct to be protective is so wise. And also I hope that on some level this can be a gratifying and enjoyable kind of like, victory, because you really deserve it. And like, I think if we've, we've learned anything today, it's that this has been a long time coming. There were so many other worlds in which this didn't happen because you stopped. And, like, you didn't stop. There was some belief that you had in your ability that I think Is, like, supernatural because to. To get yourself to this point is just so singular. This happens to, like, one novelist a year, you know, and it's you, and you did it. And I just. I hope you feel, like, 5% as proud of yourself as I feel of you.

[B]

I think that that's probably the ratio. That's correct. I do feel very proud of myself. It is really overwhelming, but it is also. I have given all of my caveats of all of my negative feelings. I am also probably the happiest I've ever been in my life. I genuinely feel so fulfilled. I can't believe I get to work with you. I can't believe we get to have a company like this. It is such a source of stability for me at a time when so much in my life feels un. Unstable and figuring out how to have a baby while also being a person whose income, like, is very important for their family and who, like, has to navigate all these moments at the exact moment when, like, you wouldn't want to stop or slow down if I hadn't had. You and Riley are, like, the two people in my life that, like, not just the support, but game planning and talking things out and being like, how am I going to do this? Like, practically speaking, I feel incredibly lucky to have so many people who are. As much as a lot of the stuff that's happening externally is very overwhelming. I feel so grateful to have so many people internally who are, like, keeping me stable, and I am not a stable person, although I may occasionally present as such. So, yeah, that's why we're naming the baby Katie or Katie as we.

[A]

Kta.

[B]

Kta.

[A]

What is. What are the two dots over the E?

[B]

The dots are over the. I thought they were over the I.

[A]

No, no, they're over the E. Okay.

[B]

I don't know what that changes the sound to.

[A]

Kta. Burke. I can't wait. Our kid is going to be so cute. Well, congratulations.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

It's an honor and a privilege to be mentally unstable alongside you. And long live yesteryear. Long live diabolical lies. Go buy yesteryear if you know what's good for you. If you don't want your house to get drone striked in the night. And that's all, folks. And we'll see you in Austin on Friday night.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

We're gonna do our first ever live thing together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God. That's crazy.

[A]

I was gonna say let us know if you want us to tour, but we're probably gonna do that anyway, so I guess. Don't tell us.

[B]

Yeah, don't tell us. We're doing it anyway. Don't tell us.

[A]

You don't want us to do that.

[B]

Oh, my God. That was fun.

[A]

That's it. That's the end. Caroline, there is literally no one on planet Earth who is more interesting to me than you. Just to read this book, knowing that it came, like, out of your brain. I respect you and admire you on a level that I we've covered is sexually confusing for me at times. What else do you like about me? I'm flushing immediately. I need to collect myself. I think about you all the time. Kta Burke. I can't wait. Our kid is going to be so cute. Sam.