God's Sovereignty & Man's Responsibility | How Do I Know If I'm Elect? Don't Miss Jesus' Explanation

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis

EPISODE: "God's Sovereignty & Man's Responsibility | How Do I Know If I'm Elect? Don't Miss Jesus' Explanation"

Date: April 7, 2026
Host: Jonny Ardavanis
Guest: Hank

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Overview

In this episode, Jonny and Hank dive deep into the theological tension between God's sovereignty in salvation and human responsibility. Using biblical examples—Mother Teresa, Jeffrey Dahmer, and the story of Moses and the bronze serpent—they explore questions of merit, grace, election, assurance of salvation, and the practical outworking of faith. The conversation is honest, pastoral, and aims to clarify complicated doctrine with warmth, humility, and scriptural fidelity.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Merit vs. Grace: The Surprising Level Ground of Salvation

• Mother Teresa vs. Jeffrey Dahmer: Jonny begins (00:00-05:52) by contrasting "the most admired woman of the 20th century" (Mother Teresa) and a notorious murderer (Jeffrey Dahmer), pointing out that both need the same miracle of grace for salvation.
  • Quote:

    "Nothing Mother Teresa did got her to glory. What Mother Teresa needs in regards to her standing before God is the same thing that the Milwaukee monster serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer needed. What's that? A miracle of God." (Jonny, 00:00)

• Every person, regardless of moral standing, is entirely dependent on Christ’s merit, not their own.
• The conversation leans into the offensiveness of grace: it dismantles our natural meritocratic assumptions.

2. The Necessity of New Birth—Not a New Start, But a New Heart

• Nicodemus as Example (07:27-08:30):
  • A religious, upright man is told his virtue is not enough—he needs to be "born again" (John 3). Jesus confronts Nicodemus’ religiosity with his spiritual deadness.
  • Quote:

    “What you really need here is not a new start, you need a new heart...” (Jonny, 07:45)

3. The Biblical Illustration: Moses, The Bronze Serpent, and Jesus

• Story Explained (12:39-16:33):
  • Numbers 21: The Israelites rebel; God sends fiery serpents; many die from snake bites. The only remedy is to look at the bronze serpent Moses lifts up.
  • Jesus parallels this in John 3:14-15, saying as people looked to the bronze serpent, so must sinners look to him, lifted up on the cross, for salvation.
  • Quote:

    “Nothing could be done about the infestation that was in their veins. And this is a picture, Jesus is saying, of our soul's condition.” (Jonny, 13:32)

4. Universal Condemnation & Universal Solution

• It’s not about the degree of sin, but the state—everyone is snake-bit by sin (15:33-16:03).
• The remedy for all—look to the one lifted up.
  • Quote:

    “You can't compare your bite with someone else's bite... this is one of the realities that we come to biblically, is Jesus is wanting Nicodemus to understand you're dead in your sin.” (Jonny, 15:33-16:03)

5. Sovereignty and Responsibility: Parallel, Not Contradictory

• The Tension Stated (19:13-25:07):
  • Repeated scriptural truths: You must be born again (God’s action), but also, you must believe (man's action).
  • Quote:

    "God is sovereign and man is responsible. And we have to address this tension because we see it running parallel throughout the Scripture." (Jonny, 19:34)

• Scriptural Harmony—Not a 50/50 Split
  • Quote:

    "It's not 50 this, 50 that... it's 100% both in parallel held out for us very clearly throughout Scripture." (Hank, 22:02)

6. The Ditches of Extreme Theology

• Hyper-Calvinism: Overstates God’s sovereignty, neglects urgent evangelism and personal responsibility.
• Hyper-Arminianism: Overstates human responsibility to the exclusion of God’s power.
• Both positions are incomplete; the Biblical view is to affirm both truths fully (25:07-27:37).
  • Quote:

    “The doctrine of God's sovereignty is grossly applied if it either results in a magnified sense of my own importance or a diminished sense of the urgency and priority as it relates to pleading with sinners.” (Jonny, 25:44)

7. Notable Theological Quotes & Illustrations

• J.I. Packer:
  • Quote:

    “A God whom we can understand exhaustively... would be a God in man's image, and therefore an imaginary God, not the God of the Bible at all.” (Jonny, quoting Packer, 23:44)

• Spurgeon’s Wisdom:
  • Don’t try to “reconcile friends”—God’s sovereignty and human responsibility are not enemies but “friends, and they're revealed plainly in the word of God.” (Jonny, referencing Spurgeon, 28:57)

8. The Practical Response: Preach and Hold Both

• Preach both the necessity of divine new birth and the call to personal repentance and faith.
• Don’t try to eliminate the tension; embrace it as biblical.
• Quote:

  “How do we avoid both extremes as it relates to this tension? And he (Packer) says: by making it our business to believe both these doctrines with all of our might and to not qualify, modify or water down either one of them." (Jonny, 29:49)

9. Assurance of Salvation—How Can I Know I’m Elect?

• Assurance isn’t about dramatic experiences, but present affections for Christ.
• Key questions: Do you love Jesus? Have you placed your faith in him?
  • Quote:

    “If they truly love the Lord Jesus Christ... that's the demonstration that God has changed your heart.” (Jonny, 35:24–37:36)

• It’s direction (ongoing growth in Christ) not perfection.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Offense of Grace (Mother Teresa vs. Dahmer):

  “What does Mother Teresa need? Well, she needs exactly the same thing that Jeffrey Dahmer needed... And this doesn't sit well with us... but that's what God does.” (Jonny, 05:29)

• On Attempting to Resolve the Tension:

  “You may be asking, how do we reconcile God's sovereignty with human responsibility? The answer is, we don't. We recognize them as parallel truths in the Scripture.” (Jonny, 28:57)

• On Mystery and Humility:

  “It's a ridiculous assertion that we can wrap our mind around God... I confess the mystery, but I don't explain it.” (Jonny, 32:49-33:41)

• On Assurance:

  “It's about the direction of our life, not the perfection of our lives... I have more assurance of my salvation now than I did six months ago.” (Jonny, 35:24-36:30)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00-05:52 – Comparing Mother Teresa and Jeffrey Dahmer: The level ground of the cross
• 07:27-08:30 – Nicodemus and the necessity for new birth
• 12:39-16:33 – Numbers 21 and the bronze serpent: A picture of salvation
• 19:13-25:07 – God’s sovereignty vs. human responsibility: A biblical tension
• 27:37-30:53 – Seeking balance, Spurgeon and Packer on mystery
• 31:33-34:40 – Intellectual humility, Paul on God's sovereignty, and Job’s example
• 35:03-37:36 – Assurance and marks of being born again

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Conclusion

This episode offers a clear, heartfelt, and biblically rooted discussion on the often-asked questions: “How can I know if I’m elect?” and “How do God’s sovereignty and my responsibility fit together?” With humility and warmth, Jonny and Hank urge listeners not to pit these truths against each other, but to embrace the mystery, trust the Scriptures, and most importantly—look to Jesus.

“There is only one remedy for the problem of sin, and it’s to look to Jesus.” (Jonny, 17:18)

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Transcript

[A]

Nothing Mother Teresa did got her to glory. What Mother Teresa needs in regards to her standing before God is the same thing that the Milwaukee monster serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer needed. What's that? A miracle of God. And I think we lose sight of that, or even personally. You may be wrestling with this saying, maybe the reason I'm not born again is because God just hasn't done a miracle in my heart, and I want him to, but he hasn't. And in a way where you dismiss your responsibility to look to Jesus Christ in faith. The Bible never says that sinners miss heaven because they wanted to turn to Jesus, but they were simply not elect. They don't go to heaven because it says they neglected a great salvation and did not repent and believe. Hank, how we doing?

[B]

I'm doing great, Johnny, how are you?

[A]

Good. I like your shirt.

[B]

Thank you. Uh, I need to address a little bit of controversy. I feel like we skated over real quickly. The voice memo point in. Oh, yeah, I don't know, a couple

[A]

episodes last week, if you missed it. Just that, hey, it's the 11th Commandment. You can't send a voice memo over two minutes long in a text message.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I found out there's a lot of flack on that.

[B]

I got. I'm getting people stopping me almost more

[A]

than the crunchy episode with regularity. More to come on that.

[B]

Yeah. But all I'm gonna say is people can send voice memos as long as they like. They just need to know it's wrong to send. Send anything over too much.

[A]

Just know you're living in disobedience.

[B]

Yeah, 100. But, I mean, there's a person in our community group sending 20 minute plus voice memos.

[A]

I would. I would block that number.

[B]

I mean, that's in. That's. I. I don't know if I could talk 20 minutes uninterrupted on anything.

[A]

You could. Yeah, you're right. I've heard you do it.

[B]

Portillo's order drop. Here.

[A]

You say, hey, what, What? What would be your last meal before you die in your 25 minutes later?

[B]

All right, what are we talking about today, Johnny?

[A]

Hey, well, if I said the name Agnes Ganja Boajiu, does that ring a bell?

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Yeah. Well, she was born in Northern Macedonia in 1910. She's most commonly known by the name Mother Teresa.

[B]

I know that name.

[A]

In many ways, she is the embodiment and was the embodiment of charity, humanitarian kindness. She opened homes for abandoned children. She opened AIDS hospice centers. She fed the Hungry in 1971, which is before you were born and me. She was awarded the Peace Prize for humanitarian work and she was given a $25,000 reward. And with that reward money, she used it to construct a new leper colony in Bangladesh. Then in 1979, she was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. It comes with. I didn't know this $192,000 reward.

[B]

It's a very specific number.

[A]

Yep. Do you know what she did with that?

[B]

Bought Apple stock.

[A]

No. She built shelters, hospitals, other humanitarian efforts. In 1999, a poll of Americans ranked her first in Gallup's most widely admired people of the 20th century. This is Mother Teresa. She was awarded accolades, including the Jewel of India. And in 2016, she was declared a saint by the Roman Catholic Church. And I would just want to affirm her humanitarian efforts were respectable, commendable, and helpful to many. She sacrificed human luxuries, comforts to care for the downtrodden and the destitute. In the Roman Catholic Church, Mother Teresa is a beautified saint, which means other people can pray to God in her name. And Mother Teresa would potentially intercede on their behalf. But when a Catholic priest asked if she attempted to convert people, she replied this way. Yes, I convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu or a better Muslim or a better Protestant or a better Catholic or a better. Or a better Buddhist. Now, this statement is really confusing. You know, to be honest, I don't know where Mother Teresa stands as it relates to her standing with Jesus Christ. I'm not sure if Mother Teresa is in glory. Seems like that's a confusing representation of the gospel. She may be in a part of a merit based religious system, but we can be sure of one thing. Nothing Mother Teresa did got her to glory. And I say that because she is the most admired person in the 20th century. And people say things like, hey, well, this person's so kind. They're like a Mother Teresa or he's no Mother Teresa. Yeah, yeah, this person's a jerk. And I start that way just to reference back the conversation that we've been talking about for the last couple episodes regarding Nicodemus. Nicodemus. And Jesus is highlighting this to him, that all of his best efforts, all of Mother Teresa's best efforts don't merit a single drop of the mercy of God. Maybe it's worth asking, could it be that Mother Teresa is included in Romans 3 where it says that there is not one righteous, not even one? Yes, it would be absolutely correct to say that. What does Mother Teresa need? Well, she needs exactly the same thing that Jeffrey Dahmer needed. Who's Jeffrey Dahmer? Well, if you remember, he was known as the Milwaukee Monster. He killed and dismembered 17 young men. A murderer. But at the end of his life, he was baptized in prison. He repented of his sins and. And he praised God, that God could save him, the chief of sinners. And you know what God can do that he can save a serial killer. He could save a terrorist like the Apostle Paul. And this doesn't sit well with us. Not that God can save sinners, but the fact that you could have a person like Mother Teresa with all of these accolades and achievements and recognition of her humanitarian kindness and everything she has done for the world, not be in glory. And a Jeffrey Dahmer who is a serial killer and a murderer who trusted in Jesus Christ alone and he could end up in glory not because of anything they'd done, but because he placed his faith solely and wholly in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it flies in the face of our kind of meritocratic. We want everything based on the merits. And instead of a meritocracy, we live on a system fundamentally based not on our own merit, but based on Christ's merit alone and grace.

[A]

Yeah. And it draws our attention to the fact that. But naturally speaking, we don't think we're really that bad. Rocky told Apollo in the Rocky Balbo movies, you ain't so bad. And I think by nature, we don't think our problem of sin is that bad. And when we think about it in the eyes of the world, it makes no sense. In the eyes of just our hearts, naturally speaking, it makes no sense for there to be the possibility of a beautified saint in the eyes of the world, to be in hell potentially. And I don't know where Mother Teresa is, and a serial killer to become a citizen of heaven, but that's what God does. And it brings our attention to the fact that what Mother Teresa needs in regards to her standing before God is the same thing that the Milwaukee monster serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer needed. What's that? A miracle of God. God needed to dispense no more power in saving a serial killer as he did the most admired woman virtuous of the 20th century. And I think we get this wrong because we think, oh, no, she's not so bad. But, no, what's always necessary for salvation, whether or not you're the most recognized beautified saint or a serial killer on death row, is a miracle of God. And I think we lose sight of that.

[B]

Absolutely. Well, we lose sight of it. And in the same way, what we've been looking at over the last couple episodes is this seems to be the maiden point Jesus is driving at in his conversation with Nicodemus.

[A]

Yeah, Nicodemus has a lot of religion, he has a lot of virtue, a lot of generosity. He knows the answers, but he has no assurance that he is right with God. He is the most respected man in Israel, and yet he is likely the most anxious because he's starting to recognize that even though he is physically alive, he is spiritually dead. And Nicodemus, and we've been looking at this conversation the last couple of weeks and you guys can go back and listen to the previous episodes, but he comes to Jesus and he has this honoring salutation. You know, teacher, we know that you must come from God, for no one can do the signs that you're doing unless God is with him. And Jesus totally disregards that statement, gets right to the heart of the matter and says, nicodemus, unless a person is born again, he will not see the kingdom of God. He's just shattering Nicodemus religiosity. He's saying, hey, what you really need here is not a new start, you need a new heart, as we've been mentioning. And Nicodemus is confused because by nature we're trying to earn our way to God. We're clawing our way to him. And then God doubles down. Jesus doubles down in verse five and says, you have to be truly, truly born of water and the spirit, and if not, you cannot enter the kingdom of God. We talked about that last episode. It just means that we need a cleansing, but we also need a transformation. This is not any short of a miracle. Hey, folks, one of the things that I've said often, and Harry often says this to me, is accountability is the friend of integrity. We live in a pornographic world. And it's really important. It's critical that we have different systems of accountability set up in our own life so that we would be able to honor the Lord with what we look at with our eyes. Personally Speaking, I use Accountable2You as a software and have different partners that keep me accountable. They can see what I'm looking at if anything raises a flag. And I want that because I do want to honor the Lord with whatever I consume on my devices. I would encourage you, if you don't have some sort of an accountability to choose check out accountable 2. You if you use our code dial in, that'll waive 25% off your first year of your subscription. You can check out more information about accountable2you on their website accountabletoyou.com dial in Romans 13:14 is really clear. Make no provision for the flesh. And as a man that wants to honor the Lord, and you may be a man or a woman or an old man or an old woman that wants to honor the Lord, I would encourage you to get this accountability in your life so that you would be able to honor the Lord with what like you look. Look at on your devices.

[B]

And we're not. You made the point again last episode. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but this is not a matter of us being in need of a small kind of state change or we're not sick and being incrementally healed better. But I think you drove at the point of we have the same amount of participation in our salvation as Lazarus

[A]

had in his resurrection. Yeah. No, that we're dead. Dead. And the last couple episodes, the main thrust has been God's sovereignty and salvation. It's a miracle of God and we need to never lose sight of this because this is kind of where that line of thinking, you know, my, my testimony is not that great. Well, no, biblically speaking, it's a miracle. God has to do a work in your life. And we've been stressing the sovereignty of God and salvation. However, in this passage, and we'll talk more about this as we go on. After asserting God's sovereignty and salvation, Jesus is now going to stress to Nicodemus the urgency and necessity of human responsibility. And I want to pick up in the text and just continue on. And actually, can you turn with me to numbers 21 and while you read, I'll keep going in the text. Nicodemus said to him in John, chapter three, verse nine, how can these things be? And Jesus answered and said to him, are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? He's saying, how do you not understand that you need to be born again? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen. And you do not accept our testimony. If I told you earthly things and you did not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? Now just bear with me. Hold on. Verse 13 of chapter 3. No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. So he's saying, you're not going to just climb a ladder to God? No, no. The only way you can get to God is if Someone comes down and he's saying here that the Son of Man has descended. Now we come to John chapter 3:14. And you cannot understand John chapter 3:16 if you don't understand the two verses that precede it. John 3:14 and 15. Jesus says, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up so that whoever believes in him will have eternal life. Now Jesus is bringing Nicodemus attention back to a story that Nicodemus would have been very familiar with. He says, oh, yeah, he would have had it memorized. He knows everything. He says, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up. Now, this is not in Prince of Egypt. So it's not something people are super familiar with. As it relates to the life of Moses, Nicodemus is struggling as it relates to the point of entry and how I can be reconciled to God. He's not yet understanding that his best deeds of righteousness merit him nothing. And so Jesus draws his attention back to a story, a story that we need to understand. It's found in numbers 21. And I want to look first with you at the problem that we find there. Read numbers 21, 4, 5.

[B]

Yeah. So it begins then. They set out from Mount Hor, by the way to the Red Sea to go around the land of Edom. And the people became impatient on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses. Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this miserable food.

[A]

So God had delivered them out of the land of Egypt. He had displayed his miraculous power. The plagues, you know, everything you see in Prince of Egypt shout out. And they continue to express their dissatisfaction. They're impatient and they're critical, not only towards Moses, but God. And they're saying, why have you brought us out here to die? And it says, they spoke against God. This is rebellion. This is ultimately what all sin is. It's rebellion. And as a result of this, keep going in the next verse.

[B]

So Yahweh, the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people so that many people of Israel died.

[A]

Okay, just pause there for a moment. So this again is the two verses prior to John 3:16. So it's always good to understand this in the context. Jesus again said, just as Moses lifted up the serpents in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up. And we go Back to numbers 21 6. And it says, as a result of the people's rebellion and their sin, and God sent an infestation of poisonous snakes. And it says in the text that their venom was like fire and many died. And I want you just to picture them there, they're writhing on the wilderness floor and they're dying. And potentially one amongst them was a physician, but they could offer no help. Or potentially one amongst them was a pharmacist, but they could offer no help. Potentially one amongst them was a therapist, but they could offer no help. Nothing could be done about the infestation that was in their veins. And this is a picture, Jesus is saying of our soul's condition, the soul, Ezekiel 18:20, that sins shall die. And it doesn't really matter, you know, going back to our conversation with Mother Teresa, it doesn't matter how many times that an individual was bit by one of those snakes, where they were bit, how much they complained. Every single person that bore the venom of the snake died. And Jesus is pressing home to Nicodemus here, a more pressing, urgent, serious venom runs through your veins. And the inevitable conclusion, the destination is death. You're snake bit by the disease of sin and you can't compare your bite with someone else's bite. It says here they died, they died. And this is one of the realities that we come to biblically, is Jesus is wanting Nicodemus to understand you're dead in your sin. You're already judged again. We'll get to this maybe next episode. John 3. 18. He who believes in him is not judged, but he who does not believe has been judged already. And you're in great need.

[B]

And to your point, you having venom in your blood is like a state reality. You're driving it. It doesn't matter if you have a little bit of venom or a ton of venom, namely in the same way. No matter. We're not sinning to the same extent as Jeffrey Dahmer or sinning less like Mother Teresa. It's not a directional thing you touched on this last episode, but it's a state of existence before God.

[A]

Yeah, it's your condition. Jesus saying to the most righteous man in Israel, the most well known Pharisee, your snake bit.

[B]

And so the question then is, what do we do about it?

[A]

Yeah, so keep reading. Numbers 21:7.

[B]

Then the people came to Moses and said, we have sinned because we've spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord that he may remove the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. Then the Lord said to Moses make a fiery serpent and set it on a standard, and it will be that everyone who's bitten and looks at it will live. And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard. And it happened that if a serpent bit any man when he looked up to the bronze serpent, he lived.

[A]

Okay, stop there for a moment. What's left unstated is that many people did in fact die. They didn't trust God's diagnosis, and therefore they didn't trust God's remedy. But just ask the question, how many remedies did God provide in numbers 21 to those who were snake bit? 1 1. And on the surface it seems so simple, potentially absurd, but Jesus is saying here, just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, and the only people that were cleansed from the toxic venom within them was by looking to the serpent that he lifted up, the only way, Nicodemus, that you're ever going to be reconciled to God is by looking to the one who's going to be lifted up. Who's that?

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

Jesus on the cross. And so he's drawing these parallels. And Nicodemus, you know, if you think about the story in Numbers 21, it seems so foolish. Like, why would God employ a snake on a pole as the means by which he cleansed people? But that's Paul's whole point. And, you know, you could ask the question, why would God save people by Jesus being lifted up on a cross in shame and humiliation? This is why Paul says the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. Nicodemus would have been inclined to try to do something else. And Jesus says, no, no, you just have to look to the one that's going to be lifted up. Now, I want to, you know, one thing before we move on. It brings me back to Isaiah 45, verse 22, look to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God. There's only one remedy for the problem of sin, and it's to look to Jesus. But really, really, I want to go is. For two weeks, two episodes, we've been stressing the sovereignty of God and salvation. However, after five times declaring that someone needs to be born from above, Jesus says, you have to be born from above. There's nothing. You contribute to your salvation seven times. In the following verses, we are going to read the emphasis of believing in Jesus. Now, in our minds and in the text, there appears to be a contradiction or an incompatibility because Jesus and we touched on this for two weeks in a row. Nicodemus there's nothing you can do, nothing you can do. And then right after that, he repeatedly emphasizes, you must believe. You must believe. 98 times throughout John's Gospel, we read that emphasis of faith and belief. And John wrote the entire gospel, John 20:31. These things I'm writing to you so that you may believe. So on the one hand, you have this doctrine of divine sovereignty. Something has to happen to you. But on the other hand, within the same chapter, within the same conversation, you have this doctrine of human responsibility. And it leaves us guessing which one is it?

[B]

Totally. And it's such an important point I just want to underscore because I feel like I'll look at, from time to time at comments, and people's pushback will be like, okay, but you're presenting a false gospel. You're presenting only one half of the equation. If it's all a work of God, then what am I supposed to do? And is there any implication or application for my own life?

[A]

Yeah, if you're gonna ask the question, do I need to be born again, or do I need to respond in faith and look to Jesus Christ, what's the answer? Yes, yes, yes. God is sovereign and man is responsible. And we have to address this tension because we see it running parallel throughout the Scripture. And there are ditches, though, on both sides. And I want to address those as it relates to the theological road. One ditch would be to elevate the sovereignty of God in salvation to the degree that I would refer to it as hyper Calvinism, meaning that, okay, God's gonna save from he's gonna save. We don't really need to do anything about it. We don't need to plead with sinners to turn to Jesus Christ because at the end of the day, God's gonna do what he's gonna do. The other would be to elevate man's responsibility. In the sense that you go like, you're paranoid. In the sense, like, even for me as a preacher, just thinking, like, if I thought that everyone's eternal destiny was dependent upon my preaching, that would be a very crippling thought. Or even personally, you may be wrestling with this saying, maybe the reason I'm not born again is because God just hasn't done a miracle in my heart and I want him to, but he hasn't. And in a way where you dismiss your responsibility to look to Jesus Christ in faith, and therefore you blame the hardness in your heart towards God or on God rather than the man in the mirror. And I would want to just Stress this reality and then jump in. Hank. God is totally sovereign, but the responsibility of disbelief always lies in the hand of the sinner and not on God. For example, you read so many times in the book of Exodus that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. But then you read just as many times that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Pharaoh will not meet God face to face and say, I had no other option. You hardened my heart. It is always the responsibility of the individual and what they do with God so that no one can meet God face to face and say, I had no other option.

[B]

And so what I hear you saying is one ditch is to inflate God's sovereignty so much so that there's no room left for human responsibility. On the flip side, you can inflate human responsibility so much that you actually do away with God's sovereignty, an immutable attribute of who he is. But then the other point I hear you saying, which is more maybe fine tuned but worth bringing to the forefront, is it's also not 50 this, 50 that you seem to be saying it's 100% both in parallel held out for us very clearly throughout Scripture.

[A]

Yeah, and if you're going to err on one side, I would err on elevating the sovereignty of God rather than human responsibility. But for example, and I just said this, but it's worth reiterating, the Bible never says that sinners miss heaven because they wanted to turn to Jesus, but they were simply not elected. They don't go to heaven because it says they neglected a great salvation and did not repent and believe. Now when the apostles are asked, what must I do to be saved? They do not respond and say, be born again. They respond by saying, what?

[B]

Repent.

[A]

Repent and believe. Why? Because although we stress and affirm God's sovereignty and salvation that it is entirely a miracle, we also affirm the parallel truth that man is responsible to place his faith in Jesus. And we see that not only in John 3, but we see it in John 6. For example, it says in John 6:37, all that the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out. Meaning that everybody that is saved is a love gift from the Father to the Son. 6:44 says, no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. This is God is sovereign. However, we have to read that in harmony with chapter 6 47. Truly, truly I say to you, he who believes has eternal Life. This is back and forth, back and forth in the same Bible, in the same chapters, in the same conversations, in the same messages. And our inability to grasp these twin truths only goes to represent and reflect our fallenness. I like what J.I. packer says. And before I read this packet, quote, this is what you see over and over again. Acts 2. Jesus was delivered over by the predetermined plan of God, but you killed him. Meaning, like, so were they responsible or was this God's plan? Both. Packer says, the Creator has told us that he is both a sovereign Lord and a righteous judge, and that should be enough for us. Why do we hesitate to take his word for it? Can we not trust what he says? Packer says, a God whom we can understand exhaustively and, and whose revelation of himself confronted us with no mysteries whatsoever, would be a God in man's image, and therefore an imaginary God, not the God of the Bible at all. People like tidy theology. What I mean by that is, well, God is. It's either God's sovereign or man is responsible. And Packer says, you want a God that confronts you with zero mystery that you can put in this little bubble. And that's not the way it works. Packer refers to this as an antinomy, meaning, it seems like a contradiction, not an enemy. I saw your smirk and I knew that. I said, I knew that you went to finding Nemi child. Yeah, come out or back in. We're talking deep theology. And I said antinomy, and you went,

[B]

it's not a paradox, it's an anemone,

[A]

an antinomy, which is a truth. A paradox is. Paul says he is sorrowful, yet always rejoicing. Okay, it's like, okay, we kind of understand what he's saying.

[B]

There two things at odds that actually can be harmonized, harmonized together.

[A]

And antinomy is something that we actually struggle to reconcile, but we're going to talk about that more. We don't need to really reconcile this at all. So if you talk to an Arminian, not an Armenian, an Armenian who believes that, who stresses that side of human responsibility, and Arminian's concern would be that people really need to hear the Gospel. And he begins to rightly engage in aggressive evangelism. He wants to make sure the gospel is clear and powerful. But he may, on a quest to reach the lost, forget that salvation is always and entirely a work of God. And then he may see that God is using him and begin to think that he is indispensable to the work of God and think God's work would collapse without me. Now, talk about a hyper Calvinist for a moment. He would rightly declare and affirm the sovereignty of God. What's his concern? He doesn't have one. Because he would justify potentially his inactivity and passivity in proclaiming the gospel by affirming that God's going to save who he's going to save anyway. And he rightly affirms that God doesn't need him, but he doesn't realize my neighbors do and the people around me. The doctrine of God's sovereignty is grossly applied if it either results in a magnified sense of my own importance or a diminished sense of the urgency and priority as it relates to pleading with sinners. And this is why sometimes people are either or. But Spurgeon says, hey, we don't know who the elect are. They don't have yellow stripes running down their back. That's why we plead with everyone. And we're just kind of wrestling through this. I don't even like calling it attention, these twin truths that we find in the Scripture.

[B]

I think it's worth distilling knowing you. You're not characterizing the Arminian or the hyper Calvinists with any kind of sense of lack of charity. There's going to be a bunch of people on both sides who say, no, you're actually misrepresenting my side because I'm actually right. The point you're saying here very clearly is both of these truths are presented irrefutably throughout Scripture. Again, we've said this many times, not just in different places in the Bible, not just in the same book of the Bible, not just in the same chapter of the Bible, the same conversation

[A]

in the same verses, 100%.

[B]

And so it's just I want to preemptively get out in front of like, we're not trying to belittle someone's position. When you articulate the weakness from which

[A]

you pronounce just the way you pronounce an enemy.

[B]

Leave me alone.

[A]

No, we're not. And I think there can be weaknesses on both sides of. There's ditches on both sides. Right?

[B]

Which is not. The answer is not diminish your view of the other side. The answer to your point is actually you need to preach and elevate to yourself. They're both true, both realities that are happening.

[A]

Romans 9. God says, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on him who I on whom I have compassion. You're like, okay, that settles it. Verse 16. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, for this very purpose, I raised you up to demonstrate my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole world. So then he has mercy on whom he has. On whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires. Now, you would get to the end of chapter nine of Romans and be like, bro, case closed. Case closed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

God's going to have mercy on whom he has mercy. Why on earth do I need to plead with sinners to. To be reconciled to God when this is balls in God's court? You know, do what you want, God. I'm a happy observer of your providence. But the next chapter is, you know, Romans 10:9, if you confess with your mouth Jesus is the Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Okay, that's great. Romans 10:13. Whoever calls in the name of the Lord will be what?

[B]

Saved.

[A]

Saved. Okay, next verse. How are they going to call on him whom they've never heard? You want to know the answer to that? They won't. How will they believe unless someone's sent, you know, like, how are they going to preach unless they're sent? How beautiful are the feet of those who bring the good news? Meaning, Paul gets to this. I mean, no one understood the sovereignty of God and salvation better than Paul. And then in the next chapter, he's saying, well, how are they going to believe in him if you don't go tell them? And so I think that there's this. You know, you can be a Romans 10 person, or you can be a Romans 9 person. These are truths that we need to marry together. And you may be asking, how do we reconcile God's sovereignty with human responsibility? The answer is, we don't. We recognize them as parallel truths in the Scripture. You know, one time someone Spurgeon was asked, how do you reconcile these realities of God's sovereignty and human responsibility as it relates to salvation? And he says, you don't need to reconcile friends. God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are not adversaries. They're not annoying cousins. They are friends, and they're revealed plainly in the word of God. There is a level of tension there. But I like what Packer says. He says, how do we avoid both extremes as it relates to this tension? And he says, by making it our business to believe both these doctrines with all of our might and to not qualify, modify or Water down either one of them, meaning the sovereignty of God. You preach it and you affirm it. The human responsibility of responding in faith to Jesus Christ. Jesus himself says he pleads with sinners. Unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sin. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5 that he implores. He begs sinners on behalf of Christ to be reconciled to God. And so we, he says, believe both of these truths, not kind of with all of your might. And I love that there's so many

[B]

different routes we could take. This one that leaps out to me is for the people who maybe are listening and just like, yeah, but that's just hard. I feel like you're just doing an intellectual jujitsu where you're not actually answering the question. 1. I would just pause it for them to think about. What do we do with the fact that our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, was fully man and fully God? There are these realities in Scripture that do go past our own intellectual ability to perfectly make sense of them, and yet we are called to believe them wholeheartedly. Another point, maybe just worth calling out, that I never had occurred to me until you took us back to numbers, is there's even a beauty in numbers, in that there's one bronze serpent lifted up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The fact that it's lifted up does not save all of Israel. You made this point, but we blew by it. And people are still called to look, but they're not called to look at anything of their so choosing. There's one serpent and there's one action that saves them. And it's looking upon that lifted up figure that saves them.

[A]

Hey, looking to Jesus. And, you know, even going back to what you said about intellectual jiu jitsu, you know, Paul responded to the question, you know, wait, which one is it? Make it clear. Right after he says, God will have mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires. You know what Paul says? He says, you will say to me, then why does God still find fault? Who can resist his will? He's asking the question that has persisted for the last 2000 years. Well, if God's sovereign, then how can he hold someone responsible?

[B]

And this is in Romans 9.

[A]

Yeah. And then Paul responds in Romans 9, 20, and says, who are you, O man? You're the pot. You don't get to talk to the potter. And I love that. He says, does not the potter have a right over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath, he's just saying, begging the question. God can do whatever he wants.

[B]

It echoes of Job of all right, gird your loins. Where were you when God answers in Scripture?

[A]

Yeah, it's like, oh, well, God needs to make sense to me. And Paul goes, does he? Does he need to make sense to you? You're a created being. You were taken from the dust and to dust, you're gonna go back and you wanna understand the infinite mind of God who places in the sky. It's a ridiculous assertion that we can wrap our mind around God. And you know, one thing that, you know, obviously I, I wholeheartedly affirm the sovereignty of God and salvation. I think going back to, I like what you said about intellectual jiu jitsu. I think people sometimes want to have a God that makes sense in evangelism. And so they feel like they have to, you know, oh, they're going to get. Someone's going to move a pawn in the chess game and say, well, if God is good and loving and powerful,

[B]

why does he allow sin in the world?

[A]

Yeah, why does he allow sin in the world? And this question of like, this is the problem of evil, the Achilles heel of theology.

[B]

Your move. Check. Yeah.

[A]

And you have to memorize and answer, listen, this is just what the Bible, this is what the Bible teaches. And you don't need to be apologetic for what is really plain in the word of God. I'm not saying that by it being plain that it's easy to understand. I'm saying, listen, I don't understand how this works. Nor did any reformer, nor did anyone like you just you confess. I think it was Martin Luther who says, I confess the mystery, but I don't explain it meaning, I'm just recognizing. And listen, if I came to a passage on the sovereignty of God and salvation, I'm gonna preach it. And on Easter Sunday when I preach about the responsibility for people to respond, I'm gonna preach it. And where those two things intersect, the Bible never clarifies. And I want you to know I'm totally fine with that. And it's liberating once you just go, listen, I don't have to understand everything about God. That's not me punting as if it's 4th and 40 and I'm backed up against my own one yard line. It's just me saying, if the Apostle Paul didn't understand this fully and just said, this is who God is, then I think we should be as well.

[B]

And maybe just to wrap us into close as if. I mean, that's reason 1746. If it takes a whole Bible to make a whole Christian, sure. But maybe for a. For a specific listener who's saying, okay, I've been tracking along, maybe listen to the last couple episodes, and they say, I fully affirm God's sovereignty and the need for him to regenerate. Make new my heart.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I confess with my mouth that Jesus is Lord, that he's raised him from the dead. How do I actually know that I'm saved? We've repeated. We've come to this time and time again, but I think it's. It's always worth revisiting. What would you say to that person who questions at the end of the episode, okay, but am I one who's saved?

[A]

It's a longer, you know, it's its own episode. But I would say, in brief, if I'm talking to someone on an elevator, I would ask them if they truly love the Lord Jesus Christ. Right. Have they placed their faith in Jesus, his finished work, and do they love Jesus? Part of that is because the only way that you can love Jesus is if you've been given regenerated affections. And that is the greatest commandment, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And so there are fruits of transformation, like obedience. But then the question that's always, well, how do I know if my obedience is enough? And so I've said it here probably a few times, but it's about the direction of our life, not the perfection of our lives. But I think sometimes, and it's maybe worth its own episode, people are wanting some sort of radical, like, Damascus Road moment. And again, I come back to it and just say, I never had that moment. I've never heard God speak to me audibly. I've never had this echelon that I've been ushered into, or I was taken from a mediocre Christian to, like, a super serious one. God has continued to refine me. And I would say I have more assurance of my salvation now than I did six months ago. And I say that, like, candidly, just to say, like, just real candidates. I have a prayer list, and it's things I've been praying every morning. And one of the things I've been praying every morning is that God. I'm looking at my notes that God would give me great confidence in my adoption, that I belong to him. And that's a prayer God answers. And so the Holy Spirit testifies within us that we are children of God. In Romans 8. And we need the time to listen to his voice and to be near to him. And so you could look at all these external things, but it's simple enough for, hey, look to Jesus Christ. You know, just like Moses and the serpent, look to Jesus, trust in him alone. And you could get into, well, the demons believe in shudder and all that stuff. But that's why R.C. sproul once asked the question, well, do you love Jesus at all? I'm not saying you love him perfectly, but do you love him at all? Well, if you love him at all, that's the demonstration that God has changed your heart.

[B]

That's a freeing reality. Thank you, Johnny.

[A]

Thanks, Hank.