"Is 'Crunchy' Christianity Biblical? Seed Oils, Stewardship & Fear-Based Eating | Greg Gifford"

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis

Episode: “Is 'Crunchy' Christianity Biblical? Seed Oils, Stewardship & Fear-Based Eating | Greg Gifford”

Date: March 10, 2026

Host: Jonny Ardavanis

Guest: Dr. Greg Gifford (Professor, Biblical Counseling, The Master’s University)

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Episode Overview

This episode takes a thoughtful and often humorous look at the rise of “crunchy” lifestyles within Christian communities—particularly the focus on holistic, ‘ancestral,’ or ‘natural’ living—and asks: Are hyper-health and stewardship concerns biblical, or can they become forms of legalism and fear? Host Jonny Ardavanis and guest Dr. Greg Gifford explore the biblical principles underlying stewardship of the body, address fear-based eating and parental anxieties, and urge Christian liberty, moderation, and discernment in navigating online health trends.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining “Crunchy” and Its Extreme Forms

[00:00–04:23]

• Crunchiness: A focus on holistic, ancestral, or healthy living—avoiding chemicals, choosing organic, unprocessed foods, home births, etc. For some, this means “abstaining from perceived man-made threats to health.” (Greg, [02:57])
• Extreme Crunchiness: Moves from personal conviction to judgmentalism or even legalism—imposing standards on others.
• Memorable moment: “Home birthing, non-vax, environmentally safe cleaning products, sourdough, beef tallow, homeschooling, aromatherapy, grounding, earthing… And she just said, ‘Yeah, this was exhausting...do you have any biblical guidance?’” (Greg, [05:02])

2. The Stewardship Debate: What Does It Really Mean?

[06:28–07:52]

• “Stewardship kind of becomes this word, like this idea, an entity where you can kind of use it and abuse it to kind of say, ‘well, you’re not being a good steward.’” (Jonny, [00:29]; [06:28])
• The notion of stewardship is often weaponized—used to imply that less ‘crunchy’ choices are dishonoring to God.
• “Food is a means of sustaining our body to serve the Lord...not to live longer.” (Greg, [00:37]; [40:36])
• Stewardship should be grounded in Scripture, not personal preference or internet trends.

3. Why the Crunchiness Craze? Roots and Motivations

[08:44–10:57]

• Demographics: Primarily women, but not exclusively; a reaction to past negative experiences—medical mistreatment, mistrust post-COVID.
• Mistrust of Authority: “There’s no one to trust but myself.” (Jonny, [19:24])
  • Explosion of online influencers and the decentralization of expert authority contribute to the confusion.
• Fear-Based Eating: “...if you do use this detergent, for instance, you’re going to hurt your kids...you actually can’t enjoy a bottle in plastic without being fearful.” (Greg, [09:36–11:10])
• Gnostic Tendencies: The danger of an elite or ‘higher’ knowledge about health that others don’t have; leads to judgmentalism. (Greg, [17:15])

4. Biblical Authority, Liberty, and Moderation

[12:31–20:09; 22:09–26:58]

• Scripture is central authority, not health gurus, trends, or even well-meaning Christian friends. “As soon as I frame it that way, I think most Christians would say, absolutely, the Bible.” (Greg, [12:31])
• Romans 14 Analogy: Treat health practices as matters of conscience and Christian liberty. Do not impose your personal convictions on others. “If you’re extremely crunchy, I think you have the Christian liberty to do that...but put it in that Romans 14 category...we are not going to try to impose our convictions onto your family.” (Greg, [23:09])
• Moderation: “...moderation is not exciting because it’s like, well, tell us what to do. And it’s like, be moderate.” (Greg, [28:49])
• Memorable moment: “Can you be a good steward and eat a frozen pizza?...I think you can eat a chocolate chip cookie to the glory of God. And you can eat a frozen pizza to the glory of God.” (Greg, [12:53, 29:27])

5. On Control, Fear, and Trust in God’s Sovereignty

[30:41–37:39]

• Obsessive control over food, health products, and household choices can be misguided attempts to secure the future or avoid all risk—a failing project.
• “You’re not elongating life by the way you live. All of our days are in the hand of God...but then sometimes we can elevate that human stewardship to such a degree that we become essentially the sovereign of our life.” (Jonny, [30:41])
• Memorable moment: “The antidote to fear-based eating? It is the sovereignty of God. And we do know the Lord is the one that sustains our health...the sovereignty of God removes fear-based eating and...sets us free.” (Greg, [36:09])

6. Navigating Relationships and Conversation Within Christian Community

[33:51–35:34]

• How to share? Treat “crunchy” interests like a hobby—swap ideas graciously, and never as badges of spiritual superiority.
• “If you’re sharing those principles...just treat it like you would a hobby. Like, I’m not trying to convince you you have to live this with me.” (Greg, [34:57])
• “You can give a perspective, too, without feeling like if they don’t follow through...the relationship’s over.” (Jonny, [38:01])

7. Practical Encouragement for the Exhausted or Discouraged

[39:19–41:35]

• For those feeling overwhelmed: “People find freedom when they’re able to say—moderation, stewardship, not hypochondriac, not uber controlling...eating from a place of joy and worship.” (Greg, [39:19])
• “Food is a means of sustaining our body to serve the Lord, not to live longer.” (Greg, [40:36])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Anytime someone says, ‘love your neighbor,’ and that’s the reason why they’re proposing their ideology, I’m like, man, you could make love your neighbor and stewardship mean just about anything.” (Greg, [07:46])
• “Stewardship means that I am stewarding the resources that God has given to me. So if you start to reframe that conversation, you have to be very careful to say that this is biblical...because the Bible doesn’t say that.” (Greg, [13:30])
• “Be discerning, but never fearful. Some people are eating from a place of fear.” (Greg, [24:45])
• “If the Bible does not give New Testament saints a nutritional plan to follow, then we are talking about Christian liberty, not a requirement.” (Greg, [22:16])
• “I wonder if it’s more of our Western expectations of stewardship...We’ve Americanized what we think a good steward should look like.” (Greg, [29:31])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Definition of Crunchiness & Stewardship: [00:00–04:23]
• Why Crunchiness Resonates—History, Social Media, Mistrust: [08:44–10:57]
• Fear-based Eating & Gnosticism: [09:36–17:15]
• Scripture as Authority; Christian Liberty & Romans 14 Parallel: [12:31–15:19; 23:09]
• Moderation & What Is Real Stewardship?: [26:24–29:27]
• Sovereignty vs. Control: [30:41–37:39]
• How to Share Health Convictions in Community: [33:51–35:34]
• Final Encouragement for the Exhausted: [39:19–41:35]

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Final Thoughts

“My goal is not to live as long as I can and free from pain as long as I can...We want to serve the Lord. That’s 1 Corinthians 6:20. It’s like you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.”

—Greg Gifford ([40:43])

Summary in a Sentence:
The Christian call to stewardship is about joyfully, prudently using what God has given us—not about surrendering to fear, legalism, or online trends. Moderation and liberty, rooted in biblical authority and God’s sovereignty, keep the “crunchy” conversation from crowding out grace, joy, and the true purpose of our lives.

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Transcript

[A]

Explain a definition of terms between you talk about crunchiness and extreme crunchiness.

[B]

We're talking about something like a focus on healthy living that includes food, avoiding certain chemicals, using drinks, home choices to promote perceived health. So that's one definition. That's a very slippery slope to get on to say, wait a minute, I'm using seed oils and detergents and plastic, and this is dishonoring to the Lord because I'm not stewarding my body. Well.

[A]

Well, stewardship kind of becomes this word, like this idea, an entity where you can kind of use it and abuse it to kind of say, well, you're not being a good steward.

[B]

Right. Food is a means of sustaining our body to serve the Lord.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not to live longer.

[A]

What is good stewardship of your body, your home, your kids? How do you think through that? In a prudent way, you know, going back to Proverbs because it helps us make decisions. So how do we move forward without feeling like, all right, we can't know all the answers, so let's just throw up our hands.

[B]

Where's the Cheetos?

[A]

All right, Greg, for those who aren't familiar with you, tell them about what you do, your work in biblical counseling as a professor and so forth.

[B]

Yep. Thanks for having me. First of all, my name is Greg Gifford. I teach here at the Master's University. I do teach biblical counseling. That's kind of my passion and love. It's the emphasis. I teach here at the school. I've been here since 2017 doing that.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

I also host Transformed and get to work with Todd Friel out in Atlanta doing a lot of biblical counseling resources. So that's been a blast.

[A]

Did that desire to do biblical counseling come out of, like, your military background?

[B]

Honestly, I think I. What really resonated for me with it is I love the Bible, but then I love to help take the Bible and minister it to people seriously. And so even sometimes pastoral ministry, you're like, event managing and things like that, and it's not always as disciple oriented. So I think that passion came. And then whenever I left the military, the thought was, there's no one talking about ptsd. There's no guys, like, leading and helping with the Bible and ptsd. So that kind of, like, sent me on a trajectory that way. And then once I learned more, I was like, man, I love this. If I could do this for a living, I would be glad to do that.

[A]

Yeah. I'm really thankful for your ministry, and I'm thankful for the way that you apply the scripture. To whatever we're navigating and talking about and Christian life or life in general. And I was texting you last night and before we were going to record and I was asking you about some different topics that maybe have resonated with people that you've been interacting with in the counseling realm. And you hit me back with a topic that was made sense but was surprising to me. And it is crunchiness. And give me a definition of terms between you talk about crunchiness and extreme crunchiness. Let's provide some definition. I have some other questions for you as we go.

[B]

Yeah, totally. It's hard to get our arms around when I say crunchiness. A lot of our people are like, oh yeah, they just kind of have like this implicit knowledge. We're talking about something like a focus on healthy living that includes food, avoiding certain chemicals, using drinks, home choices to promote perceived health. So that's one definition. I had a former student and listener to transform. Say, maybe this would be helpful as well. Abstaining from perceived man made threats to health. So holistic living. Some of it's getting back to unprocessed and ancestral living.

[A]

Ancestral living. I've seen a lot of that. Like there's people that make fun of it on Instagram where it's like the guy, it's almost like a parody. Like you have to think back 10,000 years to when we were caveman and the most natural way to drink would be from a river. And he's like making fun of your upside down. But the ancestral living grounding, kind of walking barefoot in the grass for 10 minutes a day to connect you with mother Nature. But there's like a biblical spin on it, you know, because this is how God made us. And a lot of these things have kind of, I would say like biblical threads where it's like, well, God made people barefoot. Adam and Eve were barefoot in the garden. Maybe shoes are what are killing us.

[B]

Yep. Yeah. And so think like there's biblical threads through a lot of it, but not like a strong biblical case for some of it. And that should always, for whoever's listening to this or watching this, they should start to say like, oh, like some of the strongest argument is stewardship.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is honestly a very nebulous category to use for nutrition.

[A]

Yeah. You mentioned something about like kind of even the way childbirth, you know, home births, which nothing inherently wrong with home births. And you kind of navigate like, hey, one thing to have a personal preference, conviction, you know, desire.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But so talk to me a little bit more about you've given some definition of terms, holistic living. The sourdough mommies, I refer to them. And Katie makes sourdough at home, trying. Delicious. But what contributed to your desire to start kind of thinking through how to approach this subject?

[B]

Yeah, sure, I try to listen. So on transform, what I'll do is I'll say, hey, look, if you have ideas, just let me know. And if enough people say the same thing, then I try to do episodes on that. And someone wrote in about crunchiness. And I was like, oh, yeah, that is a thing. And she was basically saying her women's Bible study is kind of being hijacked. Home birthing, non vax, environmentally safe cleaning products, sourdough, beef tallow, homeschooling, aromatherapy, grounding, earthing. And she just said, yeah, this was exhausting. I believe I respond biblically, but do you have any biblical guidance? So I was like, oh, that's interesting. I've heard a lot about that, actually. So I posted something and just said, hey, has anyone thought about this? And sure enough, man, it was like, all of a sudden, all these comments are coming in on Instagram of like, yeah, Dr. G, here's what we like, or here's what we don't like. Here's what we do, here's. And I was like, oh, this is a thing. This is like a conservative, right, political conservative, theologically conservative thing that we're all wrestling with. And that's really what got the conversation started in my mind. I don't. I mean, I try to follow, like, nutritional principles, but I don't consider myself crunchy in that way. So that started it. And once I began to see, oh, there's a lot of people curious about that, I did the research, and then I tried to craft those two episodes to get at least the conversation going, I think.

[A]

And so how do you. How would you encourage people to think through it? You know, I, you know, if you're on the digital landscape, it's like a big thing. And to me. And you mentioned this. I mean, obviously you mentioned. We talked about. We were just talking about working out, want to be healthy, like, that's a good thing, to be a steward of your body. But then you say, hey, well, stewardship kind of becomes this word, like this idea, an entity where you can kind of use it and abuse it to kind of say, well, you're not being a good steward.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So how do we think through all of these things? And maybe what's. There's even some things that you mentioned in your episodes about some of the difficulty feeling trapped in a Bible study or, hey, you should not get an ultrasound because it's going to kill your baby type of thing like that, that this is actually could be harmful. And again, like, I know people that do home births, beef tallow, the whole thing. We're just asking the question, how do we think about these realities biblically? Not that they're all wrong, right?

[B]

Yeah, right. Because it's almost easier to just be dismissive and just be like, yeah, that's wrong. You're like, we're not even gonna think critically about it. So that's wrong. I think you gotta start with some susceptibilities that we have. Anytime someone says, love your neighbor and that's the reason why they're proposing their ideology, I'm like, man, you could make love your neighbor and stewardship mean just about anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so when someone says, like, stewardship, it's like, okay, but, you know, like, what else besides stewardship is the real issue?

[A]

Yeah. Hey, folks, when I was looking at various methods for digital transparency, one of the questions that I had was how much it would affect my Internet speed or if it would be super complicated to set up. One of the things I love about Accountable 2 you is that it was both very easy to set up for me personally and for my accountability partner and hasn't slowed down my Internet speed whatsoever. You know, if you want to walk in transparency, if you're a man or a woman and you want to have no secrets and want to live holy before the Lord, I would highly encourage you to get some form of digital transparency. And for me, I've been using Accountable to you for over a year, and I highly recommend it. If you want to join thousands of others wanting to walk in light and walk in freedom, I would encourage you to go to accountabletoyou.com dial in, and you can use our unique code dial in to get 25% off your first year for both you and your family plan.

[B]

So when I think of what's going into some of the crunchiness, I found a couple of things that I thought were interesting, that ladies were the ones to primarily email and comment in the videos. And a lot of the craze is among ladies. Does that mean that there aren't crunchy guys? No. I was even refreshing this morning on Pal Saladino. He's this medical doctor standing in front of trained Kobe. Did he?

[A]

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

[B]

So he was in front of, like, Trader Joe's, just talking about how Trader Joe's is kind of Fraudulent. And they package things as being healthy and they're not. So it's not a lady thing only, but it does seem to be predominantly ladies. It's those that have been hurt by the medical establishment and they didn't get answers. Or maybe they actually got wrong answers. They were minimized, not listened to. And think of this like we're post Covid now and some of the fauci,

[A]

whatever that was, fiasco a healthy suspicion of like, hey, what I've been told isn't reality.

[B]

That's right. That's right. So not to get overly philosophical too, but now you have the death of the monoculture where you don't get information through one source anymore, you get information through all these different sources. So now you have people that are kind of being scattered in terms of where they go for help medically. So that kind of sets the stage for these influencers starting to write build platforms based off of unverified medical suggestions. So you had a bad experience, you kind of wondered about COVID and whatever that was, whatever your position was there. And then now you find someone online that's a social media influencer and they're starting to suggest things that seem to make sense to you or they resonate with you. But again, they're not medically verified, they're not proven, they haven't been tested. It's someone in their kitchen showing like why you should do this. Yeah, the last is a common theme which was the idea of fear based eating or multiple people that wrote in said fear mongering, that sometimes the extreme crunchiness gets into fear mongering where if you do use this detergent, for instance, you're going to hurt your kids. And if you use a plastic bottle, there are toxins in that. Sorry, Johnny, your days are numbered.

[A]

Actually, I know. I was about to hide in that episode.

[B]

It's too late, bro. I already saw it. So then what happens is you actually can't enjoy a bottle and plastic without being fearful. So then that's susceptible.

[A]

I'm feeling convicted, you know, like I'm doing something to the body God gave me totally.

[B]

So that's like a, that's a very slippery slope to get on to say, wait a minute, I'm using seed oils and detergents and plastic and this is dishonoring to the Lord because I'm not stewarding my body well. And I want people to be set free from that because before long what is being couched is stewardship and care and dominion is now becoming legalism. And you have to Live by these new man made laws in order to honor the Lord. So those are all the susceptibilities, just to get it started. So then how do you start to reframe it? That's the big issue. And for me, I think you have to reframe it in epistemology, starting with how you know what you know, who's the authority in your life, what's the authority? And for many people, their challenge is that they become the medical expert. So they've had a poor experience with the medical establishment. They start to do independent research. Then they find this school of thought online, maybe even social media. And then they start to kind of craft their own perspectives on what is medically good and medically bad. And then we have to get at like, okay, what's the authority? And who is the authority in your life? And for us as Christians, as soon as I frame it that way, I think most Christians would say, absolutely, the Bible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so then as you start to go through the Bible, what does the Bible say about diet? You know, what does the Bible equate? Where do we see stewardship in the Bible equated to nutrition? And that should be like just a fair thought to ask. Let's ask it in a very, like, blunt way. Can you be a good steward and eat a frozen pizza? You guys have those in your house?

[A]

No, because Katie actually does make homemade pizza. I'm getting worried that maybe I am crunchy.

[B]

Your mom walks in right now, Intervention.

[A]

I know what's going on here.

[B]

Where are the Cheetos?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So just.

[A]

But you can if you're starving. Right? That was the only thing available. Or that would be the last. That'd be when I would eat a frozen pizza. Right. Desperation. But at that point, it's stewardship to keep you alive. Right. So yeah, right.

[B]

So just think of stewardship. It's like, can you eat a frozen pizza to the glory of God and be a good steward?

[A]

Yes. Right, right.

[B]

I'm there with you. And it's like, well, okay, so stewardship doesn't always mean that I get the cleanest, that I get the most organic, the ancestral living, you know, farm to table type of lifestyle. Stewardship means that I am stewarding the resources that God has given to me. So if you start to reframe that conversation, it's like, you have to be very careful to say that this is biblical. God wants me to eat this way, not use these toxins so forth. Because the Bible doesn't say that. If you're going back to the Bible. Ultimately, the Bible doesn't say that. You okay with that so far?

[A]

Yeah, I'm great with that so far. And I think it's true because it's a moving target, you know, perpetually, in the sense of, like, hey, I thought it was healthy to do carnivore. Did carnivore. But then I realized I was eating the wrong ground beef, and my ground beef isn't the right ground beef. And then I switched my ground beef, and then the only way to really do carnivore, the way that God intends, is to kill a cow and for me to get a huge freezer and to, you know, so it's like. And it's one thing to say, like, hey, that's the best meat, it's going to taste the best, and it's probably the highest quality. I agree, I agree. But it's another thing to say you're actually being a bad steward of what you're putting in your body. And, you know, I think that's where it becomes, well, in that case. And I'm sinning, right? And I'm dishonoring the Lord, which I don't want to dishonor the Lord. And I think that's. The whole conversation is like going back to your term of fear mongering. Like, hey, personally, we didn't do the whole vax schedule, right. For our kids. That was something we chose to do. But we did a couple. Right. But I think the idea. But we don't go around telling people, like, oh, so you don't love your kids? Yeah.

[B]

Oh, you don't have my vaccine.

[A]

It hurt them. Yeah. And I think that's where I think the line is that you're talking about, but agree with what you're talking about, with what you put in your body and so forth. So keep going.

[B]

Yeah, okay, so let's. If you build a case, then it's like, all right, we have this decentralizing of medical information. We have people on Instagram that have built a following based off of their homemade suggestions. And maybe they're true, maybe they're not true. Doesn't matter. Like, if you have 3.1 million followers, we just. We think you know what you're talking about or you have a level of trust. So then now we aren't totally clear even on how to interpret medical advice. And if you're starting with epistemology, one of the things that I said is, like, you should probably get schooled up in how medical decisions are made. And I'm not a medical Doctor and I don't try to, you know, disciple people in medicine or nutrition. As a biblical counselor, we're going to say actually go to someone who has been trained in this, so a nutritionist or medical doctor, and actually work with someone whose advice matches the idea of prescribed clinical or clinical practice guidelines. So a medical doctor is going to be regulated by clinical practice guidelines, things that have been tested and verified. So that's like, okay, it's like, scoot that over to the side. It's like, yeah, go work with a nutritionist now. From there, here are some of the pitfalls and I'll get back to the absolute truth of God's word here in a second. Be very careful not to fall into the trap of Gnosticism. And in these episodes in the research, I found that there's like this higher knowledge where many of the extreme crunchy people are actually believing this is not malice, but believing they have a corner on nutritional information that you don't know about. And that's why they feel such an impulse to tell you. And then that comes across in this gnostic higher knowledge, deeper knowledge type of understanding. So I don't think many of our Christian brothers and sisters are actually trying to be malicious. What they're trying to do is help. And they think they know these things that maybe they really don't know. So it's like this either gnostic or elite or they've studied, so they're aware. And then what happens is people are judged because they don't know and they're not living according to that higher knowledge with an extreme crunchiness. And that judgmentalism does start to come out. And you know, the person that wrote into Transformed it was the idea of like a women's Bible study where we're not talking about redemption and salvation, we're talking about sourdough chickens where you got your all purpose cleaner from. It's like, well, that's a shift a little bit from the purpose of our Bible study to now nutritional guidelines that we should probably be talking to doctors and the FDA and medically trained experts. So then the result can be that we judge people that don't live up to those standards.

[A]

So how do you balance that with like the lack of trust in the establishment? Because you mentioned that a lot of people go this way because of maybe the perceived suspicion. And personally I'm suspicious of if someone 30 years ago someone said, go talk to a doctor or I'm a doctor, trust me, yeah, that is different now, like, I would be a little bit more if someone said, you need surgery, I'd be like, do I need surgery? Right. So I have, like, I'm not saying all surgeries.

[B]

I think we're all there too.

[A]

Yeah. So, like, how do you navigate that? Where. And you mentioned this in your episodes, like a verifiable medical reality is that insulin does something for people with diabetes. Right. That's like a tested, improved reality. And you understand, you glean that because multiple studies show this to be factual. That's different than what is it? Like studies or guidelines or recommendations. Yeah. And so, like, on Instagram, people will be talking about those. You know, hey, we've actually done some research and we found this to be true. Right. That's different than a medical verifiable reality. But even when I say medical verifiable reality, now that term is convoluted and muddied. Right. By the lack of suspicion or the lack of trust in the establishment. So that's, I think, part of the reason why people are like, I have no one to trust but myself. Right. And I. This person online seems like we see the world the same way, and they share an experience that I had.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Right. Like, they also were told to give this to their kid and it ended up hurting their kid, you know, or whatever it may be.

[B]

Right, right. So then you don't trust the anybody. You don't trust the man.

[A]

Yeah. Which personally, I'm not there, but I'm kind of there, you know? Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I think many of us feel that way. And there is the line of, okay, I don't trust them. How much more should I not trust someone that doesn't have medical training or someone that doesn't have any verifiable evidence that this is true?

[A]

Which makes it a never, like a never ending conversation.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because you're always like, it's conversationally based and it's like, man, to stay up to date on to keep my kids alive is, at your point, exhausting. Yeah. Right.

[B]

And then if you're doing that out of fear.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or maybe you think you know and you're doing that out of judgmentalism and this like, extreme crunchy Gnosticism.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then it does start to actually tug at the body of Christ, because we're not here for Bible study anymore. We're here to talk about why your kids are drinking Kool Aid and eating fish sticks.

[A]

Caprice. I'm personally a caprice. I got it.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Come on. I was raised on fish sticks.

[A]

Like Long John Silvers.

[B]

It's like Pop Them in the oven. It's like a step below a Dino nugget. If you're familiar with this.

[A]

I know Dino nuggets. I'm a believer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think when you're talking about the Gnosticism and it's coming across elite or like you're a bad steward or you're not informed, you know, type of thing and could become from like a spirit of pride, you know, as well. Like, how do we, you know, how would you encourage people that would say like, I'm uber, I'm. What do you call it? Uber crunchy or extreme crunchy? Like, how would you encourage someone like that? And then you talked about going back to the scripture. You know, it's. I'm so thankful that the, the Bible gives us everything we need pertaining to life and godliness. So it tells us, even gives us the principles to think through these things. Because it seems like this is just going to become a larger conversation rather than a smaller one. Because you, you mentioned in your episode the guy that, that grabs a receipt with a shirt because there's toxins in the paper that we're getting at Home Depot or whatever like that, just like you're gonna walk around paranoid about the light bulbs in your house, the shoes you're wearing, the soap you use. We've been told we're using the wrong olive oil. And so it becomes like, oh my goodness, you know, it's very daunting. It's not just that I'm using a bad type of margin anymore. It's margin margarine. I don't. Butter margin is like space on the. I don't know.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

We're back to butter. Kerrygold, Costco. Yeah. But it's just going to become a never, you know, a constantly moving target.

[B]

Yeah. So for some people, I think the first step is to say, hey, look, just be aware of what's going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they don't mean ill by it. I think they actually are trying to honor the Lord and help their brothers and sisters in Christ. But it's like, hey, okay, so back to the authority of scripture. If the Bible does not give New Testament saints a nutritional plan to follow, then we are talking about Christian liberty, not a requirement. So if I want to eat an all mashed potato diet, that is not a sin. And I may not feel well, but that doesn't mean that I am in sin. And there are many people who can't afford and should not try to afford shopping at Whole Foods exclusively. They have other priorities so they're eating out at Taco Bell.

[A]

I don't even know if Whole Foods is still healthy.

[B]

It's probably the now who do we trust anymore, Johnny?

[A]

That's the real question.

[B]

No, farm the chickens. We'll just have chicken eggs for the rest of our life.

[A]

Okay, keep going. So a lot of people can't afford it. It's not even wise.

[B]

Right. So then if we say this is a Christian liberty issue, then what does the Bible ultimately say? Well, you can have your strong convictions and keep them to yourself, have those expectations of yourself biblically. So let's think of the Romans 14 analogy, okay? Meat or vegetables, you hold those. You're not trying to convince other people of your convictions. Biblically. If you're extremely crunchy, I think you have the Christian liberty to do that, number one, and say, yeah, don't drink from plastic, drink from glass. No toxins in your home. For sure. Do that. But put it in that Romans 14 category of. And yes, we are not going to try to impose our convictions onto your family. The trickier part is I do think you have to be careful with kids. And are you imposing your convictions as a dad or mom onto your children, and are they having to live by a strict set of your convictions for health and so forth? So that could perhaps be even another episode. But the first is to say, if the Bible doesn't say it, we're not going to be dogmatic. We're talking about convictions. And I'm going to respect and honor the convictions of someone that is not as crunchy as I am, and that is that. You show up with the Taco Bell bag and a Baja Blast. I'm like, man, that looks good. You know, like, there is no, like, turn. Kids, don't look. Look away.

[A]

I feel a little convicted because I would think less of you if you showed up with a massive Baja.

[B]

Well, you can work through that, dude,

[A]

because you're killing yourself.

[B]

Especially at, what is it, nine in the morning, you know? Yeah, Craig, get a grip. So that would be the first thought. I think the second thought is that we have to be able to say we're discerning but never fearful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Some people are eating from a place of fear. And that is or not eating, or not eating or avoiding. And remember, God's given us all things to enjoy. He is the giver of all good gifts. James 1:17, 1st Timothy 4:3. And food is something God's given us to enjoy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if I'm not careful, I take what was intended to be a Blessing by the Lord. And I am now eating based off of fear. And there comes this balance where it's like, I'm a prisoner. Like, I'm a prisoner to these health principles that I've imposed on my own conscience here. So if you can't eat out of a sense of joy, I do think you're getting close to an extreme crunchiness that's unhelpful, maybe even getting legalistic. And I wonder, too, if there will be health problems because of such a strict diet that you're following. You know, you can.

[A]

How do you reconcile that with, like, obvious lack of health? Like, let's take your example of Baja Blast. Not a sin inherently, but let's say you eat Taco Bell and Baja Blast every single day, and that's categorically going back to your terms. It's probably medically proven to be bad for you. So, like, you don't want to go from one side to another and be like, all right, let's just pack on the lbs and disregard health. So, like, where's the. I don't even like the word balance, because sometimes it's, like, synonymous with compromise.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

And you use the word discernment, which Spurgeon says, it's not the difference between right and wrong. It's right versus almost right, almost wrong. You know? And so I think through that, because personally, I want to be a good steward, but that term has been hijacked basically, to mean a million different things. Steward. So, like, what is good stewardship of your body, your home, your kids? How do you think through that? In a prudent way, you know, going back to Proverbs because it helps us make decisions. So how do we move forward without feeling like, all right, we can't know all the answers, so let's just throw up our hands.

[B]

Where's the Cheetos?

[A]

Yeah, let's use palm dish soap for our body wash type of thing.

[B]

Yeah. Which would be weird.

[A]

That came out. I regret it. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, that's all right. I don't want to use it either. Whatever you're talking about right now.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah. So think of the idea of stewardship as you're faithfully stewarding what's been entrusted to you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think, like, at a baseline, we could say that is stewardship. Like, if you don't have it, you're not a steward of it. So what has God given you? Time, resources, money. And you're using that. So this is funny and embarrassing. In high school, I really got into bodybuilding, and it was like, Arnold was my idol. Come on. He had this big book, encyclopedia, bodybuilding. And it was like, if you're not eating chicken breast, you're a bad steward. You know, if you're not eating 200 grams of protein a day, bad steward. And what began to take place is seriously, like, I would start to interpret other people's health perspectives as bad stewardship. But think of, like, who's a worse steward? Someone that moderately exercises throughout the week. They eat within their caloric range. They have no injuries. That person or a bodybuilder, that's 200, 250. They have heart disease because of all this red meat that they keep eating. They have knee injuries and shoulder injuries. Who's a better steward of the body? The guy that walks a little bit, eats within his caloric range, or the guy that's pushing it to the limits? He's got heart disease, knee and shoulder issues. And I would actually argue the guy over here, not the extreme bodybuilder for sure. Why? Because he is practicing in moderation, and it's not exciting. Like, moderation is not exciting because it's like, well, tell us what to do. And it's like, be moderate. Don't go all in on Baja Blast, but have one, right?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

All right, we're gonna go get one. I'm gonna lock this door.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

So think of moderation is really like, you're stewarding what God gave to you. And you know what? There's sometimes when you're traveling. When I travel, I eat the least healthy. Seriously, it's like, well, what's in the airport? All right, so you're doing your best to steward the resources given to you. And one of the best things to consider is, like, moderation. Not one extreme or the other. So the extreme you brought up is like Taco Bell Baja Blast. But then the other extreme is like, I'm only eating chicken and rice, and that's all I'll eat. And I won't eat unless I can have chicken and rice.

[A]

And if you don't eat chicken and rice, you're compromising.

[B]

Yeah. You're not stewarding.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like, maybe at this point,

[A]

you're being mastered by one thing on both spectrums.

[B]

I wonder if it's more of our Western expectations of stewardship as well, not a European expectation of stewardship. Like, we've Americanized what we think a good steward should look like. And it's muscular, physically fit, it's that you're eating a certain type of food. You don't have a Coca Cola, you have a hydro flask. So it's like there is a way that we've kind of transposed these cultural expectations onto what biblical stewardship looks like. But I would again, back to biblical authority. If the Bible doesn't claim that you cannot make that a clear case of stewardship or you're being a poor steward. If you had one Baja Blast or if you had one chocolate chip cookie, I think you can eat a chocolate chip cookie to the glory of God. And you can eat a frozen pizza to the glory of God. And even if you don't feel well, you made the best decision you could. You're in the airport and it's like, well, I don't feel awesome, but yet I wouldn't say that I've sinned against the Lord in this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And some people really do have to be set free from that. It's like you're living in this extreme crunchy worldview that you've imposed on yourself. And I don't even think the Lord has imposed that restrictive eating and lifestyle choices on you.

[A]

Yeah. You know, it's funny you mentioned kind of Psalm 139. All of my days have been written in your book before one of them came to be. So, like, we're not elongating life by the way we live. Right. Like, all of our days are in the hand of God. Then there's this other reality where we don't want to conflate the sovereignty of God by negating human responsibility for being a good steward. But then sometimes we can elevate that human stewardship to such a degree that we become essentially the sovereign of our life. And if I start eating this way, then I'll never get cancer. And the reason why everyone's getting cancer is because of this. And that's James. Come now, you who say you're not in control of your life and you touched on this and I'd want you to kind of just double click on this is a lot of this can end up being a control thing where you harness all of the variables in your life by your house, your diet, all of those different factors, and it could be, it could reveal a lack of trust in the Lord. And so I always want to you talk about moderation because I always feel the need to kind of ping pong between, hey, listen, I'm personally, we eat pretty healthy, you know, I don't, I don't. I tell Katie I Texted her last night. I don't want to eat any simple carbohydrates this month. Like, I, I'll do sweet potato.

[B]

She's like, too bad.

[A]

But like, I, I want to be. I like being healthy, but I don't think if you have a food French fry that you're sinning.

[B]

That's the balance. What you're doing is like, yeah, Johnny, that's the way it should be. Because you can say, yeah, I like the way sweet potato fries taste and that's what I'm gonna eat. And it's like, and I like the way animal style fries taste and that's what I'm gonna eat. So when we have that, you have a spiritual maturity to be able to say, I like this, I enjoy this, but I do not transpose this on someone else. And that isn't, that's a really important corner to turn in this.

[A]

So for all of the, like, moms or men that feel trapped on not knowing how to talk about what they read about too now, because you're like, hey, don't impose this. But I would say this is probably like a significant component of the algorithm for a lot of people. Yeah, right. So it's like you talk about what you consume, you digest what you ingest. And so now I, I just picture people going like, well, okay, I don't want to impose, but like, I really do think that soap is bad for

[B]

them, you know, so like, how do you go, I'm hurting my. I don't love my neighbor now because

[A]

I didn't tell him we have nothing to talk about. Yes. How do you navigate that? Because, like, you know, personally, like my, you know, we have someone in our life that would tell us something like, hey, and sometimes it's really helpful and it's like, hey, I. And I look into it. I'm like, that seems legit. And it's comparatively price wise to switch it out to this thing. And I'm glad they told me.

[B]

Yeah, good.

[A]

So I don't want to cripple someone. Be like, this is something you consume in private. Don't ever talk about it. But we also don't want you to be like, you're a bad mom if you buy store bought bread. So in the moderation in between is, hey, if you do speak about it, maybe asking the question, if you do talk about it, do it with a hey, here's kind of where I'm at. I'm not sure where you're at. You know, to each their own type of thing.

[B]

Totally. Yeah. Like, I live a very, like, high protein based diet. So if I walked up to you eating a bowl of spaghetti.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, Johnny, like, there's 10 grams of protein in that. Like, don't you know what protein does? It makes your bones stronger and helps you build muscle. You'd be like, greg, chill, dude. Like, back off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so zoom out for a second. I do think people should feel free to talk about interests and passion. And in the body of Christ, we do care. Like, yeah, for sure you care. And whenever someone's like, hey, like, what do you eat? Or how do you eat? Or, like, do you work out? How does that look for you? It's like, yeah, I'll talk about those, like a hobby and share those details that I've learned, like a hobby. But, you know, I'll be 40 this year. I'm not trying to run a marathon. I'm not trying to win anything. You know, it's just like, I'm just sharing kind of like a personal hobby.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think if we can find a gracious way of actually taking interest in the way that a person may be crunchy or extremely crunchy for us, asking those questions, I think is actually very kind and gracious. It's like, we want to know, like, oh, I see you made your own soap, bread, whatever it is. How'd you do that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that enjoyable? We want to support you in that. And then I think if you're sharing those principles, it's the same thing. Like, just treat it like you would a hobby. Like, I'm not trying to convince you. You have to live this with me. I made a cool soap thingy. You guys should try it. It's fun. Tell me if you like it. But if you use the Irish Spring dish soap or bar soap, it doesn't bother me. Honestly. I just want to do my best to be a friend who's gracious and kind and open about some of my hobbies. I think that's one way to think about it. And there's never a way of saying, if you continue to do that, you're hurting yourself or hurting your family.

[A]

Yeah. It is funny because I feel like the conversation could hypothetically never end. Because there's also an element where I'm sure there are things in our life that, are, like, not good for us that we don't know about. And so there's like, the other. The last kind of remaining element is, well, I'm not trying to say they're doing a bad job, but I care about them. And I'm worried that if all their kids drink is Baja Blast, that I want them to know because I love them. Yeah, that's my niece or nephew. Good.

[B]

Yeah, good.

[A]

And it's not because I'm more spiritual or elite than them.

[B]

That's where I think you mentioned the idea of control, which came up a lot. So think of when we're fearful. Oftentimes we're worshiping control. So then what's the antidote to fear based eating? It is the sovereignty of God. And we do know the Lord is the one that sustains our health. And we do know that there are some people that never ate healthy their whole life and live to be 92 just fine. Like, no significant issue. So just think like, when we trust the Lord and we're doing our best to be a good steward, I have to put my trust in the Lord when I really do care for people. You know, my nephew's just going to town on Baja Blast, so to speak. I have to be able to say, okay, well, I'm going to maybe give a thought or give an alternative while they're at my house. But if that's the choice they're going to make, then that's between them and the Lord and then I trust the Lord on that. Seriously, like, the sovereignty of God removes fear based eating and the sovereignty of God sets us free. So I mean, if we tease out our theology in this area, it's like, well, technically I could eat Taco Bell and God could preserve me of all diseases. Taco Bell's going to totally sue you for this. Sorry.

[A]

Well, I love like a chicken gordita crunch.

[B]

Oh, come on. All right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What do I love? I haven't had Taco Bell Supreme.

[A]

I don't know if I've had Taco Bell in 10 years because it was a staple. It was the top of. It was the bottom of the food pyramid when I was growing up. Yes.

[B]

So just think like the sovereignty of God, man. I really do think we have to get back to that where we say, I'm called to be a steward. I trust the Lord ultimately is the one to make me healthy. And I'm never, ever fearful when I'm eating.

[A]

Yeah. I think there is just this. It's always the need to check our own heart because there's this element where like, hypothetically, you know, I saw my sister doing something, I would be like, hey, I don't know if that's good for you. Like, I would consider that, but it's not because I think I'm better than them, not because I'm legalistic. If they don't do that, then I can't be. Well, they're not honoring the Lord.

[B]

Right, Exactly.

[A]

So you can give a perspective, too, without feeling like if they don't follow through with your perspective that the relationship's over. We have nothing in common anymore. And I think that's even the type of thing where it's like, hey, not all these conversations are bad. I'm thankful when someone tells me they're like, oh, if you switch over to this ground beef, it's 30 cents more, but it's, whatever.

[B]

That much better for you.

[A]

Yeah, I'm okay. Great. You know, but if that. If that person told me that and then I still didn't. If I disregarded what they told me or just said, hey, no, thanks, I like the ground beef. And then they're like, what's wrong with you? That's where you're crossing a line. And so it is. I don't want to use the word delicate, but it is where you need the spirit of God to help you be confident in the sovereignty of God. Right. Like, hey, all my days are numbered. I'm not in control of all the variables in my life or of my home. Meaning, like, a tree could fall on your house. Right, Right. And so I think that's. That's all really helpful. And it's. It's so funny, you know, I think just in, like, how conversations evolve over time. Like this. This was a conversation five, ten years ago, but now it's very prominent, I think, especially in light of what you call the. The Fauci fiasco. Right. Any other. Just final words to someone that may be discouraged. Kind of feels trapped in this. Like it's a hamster wheel that never ends because they're on this treadmill.

[B]

A lot of people did write in, and they were like. They were on the other side of that discouragement because it felt like the walls were closing in on them. They couldn't eat this. This was in plastic. This detergent had this. So what I learned through a lot of that is that people find freedom when they're able to say moderation, stewardship, not hypochondriac, not uber controlling. Eating from a place of joy and worship. And when you're eating from that place of worship or you're buying detergent from a place of worship, it's like, we're joyful. We trust the Lord. We're trying to make good decisions here. And when you make it through that barrier and you realize that that one burger isn't going to kill you. It's not the burger that killed you. That one burger, like, you're free. You really are. You can eat from a place of like, yeah, I try to eat healthy and we try to steward things, but if I drank from a plastic water bottle today, like, that is not going to misshape my day and torture everything. Think of that freedom that comes from that. So it's like, so now you actually are practicing biblical stewardship. You're eating from a place of faith and joy and this is all worship back to the Lord. Food is a means of sustaining our body to serve the Lord, not to live longer.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good thought.

[B]

We want to be individuals that are fueling our body.

[A]

Say that again. Food is a way of.

[B]

It's a way of serving the Lord. So we want to steward our body

[A]

to serve the Lord and enjoy his good gifts.

[B]

That's right. My goal is not to live as long as I can and free from pain as long as I can. And people object. It's like, well, okay, well then wait a minute. Like, so you want to have cholesterol issues? Like, you want to. It's like, no, I didn't say that. I said, what's the primary purpose? We want to serve the Lord. That's 1 Corinthians 6:20. It's like you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

Thought so I think you land on that. It's like, yeah, that's the purpose. And God can use some of my physical ailments to help me depend on him more. Talk to my lower back about that one.

[A]

Yeah, no, this is all helpful. Thanks so much, Greg for the perspective on this. If you're angry at Greg, just write him directly. But tell us in the comments, you know, if you have any other thoughts. We want to be. And I'm so thankful again that the word of God helps us to think through all of these things. Things. And so Greg has done a two part series on this. You can check out as well. And all of his resources are online at Fortis Institute. But Greg, thanks so much, brother.

[B]

Thank you.