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- [00:00]
Trevor McFedries
The broken and immature is the alpha. And what artists are great at this is like, maybe as bizarre as, like, Duchamp's urinal. Duchamp being like, this thing you piss in is. Art is not something that a market would value. You know, like Warholian tin can. That is effectively what. What bonding curves allow people to create a market and be like, no, actually, this is important. And you're like, that isn't important. That's slop. And you're like, no, trust me. What, like, great collectors have been able to do historically is, like, take the side of that bet and be like, yeah, I want all these Warhols, you know, and this basket guy that can't draw. I think it rocks, actually. And I think that that is the opportunity on both sides of that market. Been doing these kind of, like, gatherings in my home to connect Silicon Valley friends and artist friends, and I brought all these artists together who aren't on, you know, those in those X feeds and aren't aware of this stuff, but have, you know, me and Ali, really important work, and they were here, and the AI people were kind of assuming that they would, like, agree with that sentiment, that they were like, you know, the AIs don't have intuition, which is why they can't do great art. And all the artists are like, I don't know, I think a lot of that stuff is really good. And they were kind of like, wait, what?
- [01:05]
Jackson
Whoa.
- [01:05]
Trevor McFedries
And so I do think there's absolutely going to be a moment where slop is punk. But I also think what's. What's clearly interesting now are the models themselves. It will be probably uncomfortable for researchers at the big labs to be like, I'm the artist.
- [01:18]
Jackson
Welcome to Dialectic Episode 37 with Trevor McFedries. Trevor has lived a few different lives, including as a musician, an entrepreneur, a technologist, and a curious Internet person, among other things. He's also spent much of his career trying to help creative people get rich, which we talk extensively about. That balance between music and entrepreneurship has extended throughout his career to this day. He's part of electronic dance duo Soft with his fiance, and until recently, they were touring. And he's also a a founder of a new company called Runner, where he's exploring how markets, attention and prediction can affect culture and creativity. Runner will be launching soon. Looking backward on the music side. He started off as DJ Skeetskit and joined rap group Swayze when He was about 22 and had a top 10 album in America. He's been a longtime producer and been involved with all kinds of musical acts and then he's also started multiple companies, including Brud, whose flagship asset, if you will, was Lil Mikayla, who was one of the first digital creators. You could call her a CGI influencer if you wanted to. But what Trevor was really getting at, and what he pitched me when we met around 2016 was that he wanted to create Marvel for pop stars. Rudd created several characters alongside Michaela and explored what it would mean to have a creator who wasn't bottlenecked by just a single person with an ego and everything else. Brudd was acquired by Dapper Labs, where Trevor went on to run Dapper Collectives, and Trevor, also while running Brud, started fwb, or Friends With Benefits, which was a kind of novel type of DAO focused on building a community, maybe even new type of city. I've talked about FWB the past, both when I interviewed its former mayor Alex Zhang, as well as when I interviewed Reggie James at FWB Fest, their in person Music culture and Crypto festival in Idyllwild. As I mentioned, we talked about how creative people can capture more of the value they create, including about how that might require new instruments. We talked about high and low and the ways that culture and capital intersect. I asked Trevor about the ways that he continues to just have a remarkable nose for weird and be ahead of cool, and also what it means to be on time when it comes to cool. He argues that unlike 20 years ago, it might actually be punk to sell out in the modern world. And he talks about why, how despite it being so low status, he continues to return to crypto as a new way to explore how all of this might fit together, and he's particularly interested in prediction, the value created from it, and how value is captured there. I also pushed him to talk about how he continues to find new weird corners of the Internet, including those that are illegible or even inaccessible to the rest of us. We wrap up by talking about optimism, particularly for the next generation, as Trevor is about to become a father, music and how it's been such a core part of his life and even the brief period of time where he worked with and was bewildered and yet amazed by Kanye West. I hope you are inspired to be as vigorously curious as Trevor is as he spends his days. I know I was. Before we get into the episode, I would like to thank Notion, the presenting partner of Dialectic. Notion is a collaborative workspace for teams and people doing their life's work, and these days it's Never been higher leverage and more powerful thanks to AI and the agents that take away the busy work and allow you to focus on the important creative collaborative work. Notions How I prepare for all my episodes. I throw ideas and quotes and clues and excerpts into a big document and then I synthesize them and try to find the patterns and the interesting points of conversation or questions that I want to dive deep on with my guests and notions. AI and agents are tremendously helpful for helping me find those patterns and make sense of it all. And Notion obviously becomes so much more powerful when you're working collaboratively with a team. It's no coincidence that so many startups and the world's best companies turn their ideas into action thanks to Notion. If you don't use Notion, you can check it out@notion.com Dialectic I'm so grateful to them for supporting the show and I'm thankful to you for listening. If you enjoy it, Please give it 5 stars on Apple or Spotify or like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching. With that, here is Trevor McFedries. Trevor McFedries. We made it.
- [05:23]
Trevor McFedries
We did it, man.
- [05:24]
Jackson
Thank you for having me.
- [05:25]
Trevor McFedries
Thank you for coming by.
- [05:26]
Jackson
I'm very excited. This is overdue. I think we were going to try to do this like six months ago and yeah, here we are.
- [05:31]
Trevor McFedries
I love it.
- [05:32]
Jackson
We're going to start with, I think, one of the main through lines of your life, at least your working life, which is, I think this is a tweet from you. I think creative people should be rich.
- [05:41]
Trevor McFedries
Yes.
- [05:42]
Jackson
I think it's like kind of like your big quest almost, or one of them.
- [05:46]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. I think it's probably because I'm old enough that when I'm. So when I was 22, I joined this like, rap group called Shwezy. We put out a big album, a top 10 album in the States. And I was kind of thrust into the dying corpse of the music biz. And I got to see a taste. I remember going to this record producer who I won't name, who had one kind of hit in the 90s, and he had this $5 million house in the hills in this stick studio. And it didn't really compute because we had a kind of hit and I was still fucking broke. And so there was a taste of what could have been with this deep desire for information to be free that I had as a product of the Internet. And so there's always been this tension and I think that probably encapsulates it.
- [06:28]
Jackson
Why aren't creative People rich or richer?
- [06:32]
Trevor McFedries
Richer. I mean there's probably a lot of reasons, but I think in my heart I believe there's an instrument problem. Right. There are like creative people producing a ton of value in Williamsburg 20 years ago, but the instruments that captured that value were properties. And so if you were a real estate developer or someone who owned a amount of properties, you got very wealthy, you didn't produce any of the value in, you know, the day to day life of Williamsburgians. And I think as a result, that's probably why I got deeply into crypto is it was like, here's an opportunity to create new instruments that can capture value and pass them back.
- [07:03]
Jackson
How do you think about the instrument thing in the kind of more traditional like capital versus labor thing? Is it the same or are you getting at something more specific?
- [07:11]
Trevor McFedries
Historically, you know, I was kind of extremist, grew up super poor in the Midwest, discovered rage against the machine, was radicalized like reading Eldridge Cleaver and my like, you know, fifth grade English class teachers were concerned. I was very interested in kind of socializing things by bringing, redistributing all of that wealth. Not actually almost like a true, like a creative supremacist, you know, where I've kind of inverted. And I think creative people should be billionaires and people that are effectively participating in this forever 21 economy of just ripping off things and like, you know, should be minimized. And it's probably been uncomfortable to become explicit, but ultimately I think the idea of labor versus capital is a limited framing. I think I'm interested in playing the game on the field. And if we're existing inside of, as the Panthers would say, survival pending revolution, it's probably crass for folks out there who are familiar with, apply that to this modern venture backed technology environment. But I think there's an opportunity to effectively play the game on the field and to create instruments that can pass value back to the people that make life worth living, not just those who know how to trade derivatives or bonds or stocks or whatever it is.
- [08:23]
Jackson
Is the Internet like, what do you think the Internet's role has been in this? And like, to what extent do you feel like the Internet has like missed out or failed its potential or was like this the inevitable or like most likely outcome where we are now?
- [08:36]
Trevor McFedries
I mean, I'm old enough to recognize that it's probably the most likely outcome. I've been through a few cycles that this is going to change everything. Even like whether it was dance music, you know, with blog house and we were like, we're going to reinvent dance music and change everything. And it was like, wait, why is Will I am here? And you're like, oh, shit. He kind of took all the sound and made millions. And my homies are still broke, driving doordash or whatever it is.
- [08:58]
Jackson
He's somehow everywhere.
- [08:59]
Trevor McFedries
But they're effectively those kind of participants in all kinds of culture. And I think you recognize it in like Silicon Valley. You see it in Hollywood, you see it in D.C. people that can kind of like, you know, understand what's next and ride the wave. So obviously Internet devalued media, like, that's like table stakes for anyone who's a dialectic listener. I'm sure they can appreciate that. But I think the things that are underappreciated is that there are kind of these charlatans that oftentimes will like recognize an emergent trend and accelerate it and create all this pompous about how radical can be, knowing that it will effectively change things more or less 5%. And if they can insert themselves into that 5%, they can get, you know, ludicrously wealthy. And I don't want to sound like some doomer, but I think that like, that's ultimately the game on the field. I think the people that are coming up with like net new ideas and innovations should be that 5%, not the Charlotte fans that insert themselves.
- [09:49]
Jackson
I think we'll come back to. You might sound like a doomer a couple times today, but I think you are decidedly not a doomer.
- [09:55]
Trevor McFedries
Decidedly.
- [09:56]
Jackson
I think it's important to establish that up front. Maybe on that last note, like the extractor thing a little bit a different take, there would just be like. So there's a cynical view that just says, like, the reason creative people aren't rich is there's these extractors, there's these opportunists who aren't even the creatives themselves. There's a maybe less cynical view that says, like, Drake's super rich totally. And depending on the medium, like, music's complicated and a lot of reasons, but there, like, are very clear ways to get rich in music in a way that's probably less legible or less obvious if you are doing something more esoteric, if you're a ceramicist or you're a fine artist, like, so maybe the less cynical view is just like, medium matters a whole ton. And some mediums are much more commercial than other mediums, certainly.
- [10:36]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. And I think. I think the word creator is thrown around a ton right now. And I think I like to decouple this idea of, like, creative supremacy or whatever. I'm coining now from someone who is, you know, grabbing tumb or graphics off the Internet and throwing them on T shirts to someone who's, like, truly innovating. And when I talk about crate people, I mean founders, I mean the scientists, I mean artists who are creating, like, you know, net new things that are advancing this. This thing we call life. And so the challenge for me has always been that even in, like, the culture industries, there were this commercial space, and then there was kind of more institutions that recognized that their role was to recognize things that were advancing this thing called life that would necessarily play nice in the commercial marketplace. And now you can go to, you know, a museum and see a cause show. Yeah, you know, cause has done his thing. I won't go there, but, like, cause it's done financial, financially. Really well in the commercial marketplace, you can walk into a uniqlo and see cause. Do you need to go to a museum and see cause? I don't think so. And so you've kind of seen that proliferate everywhere across culture, industry. So the challenge for me, and I was saying, okay, if we have this, this. This opportunity to rethink what we're doing, can we find a way to repatriate attention and value to people that are making these, like, net new things, and maybe not the people that have found a way to just package them and repurpose them and use a distribution to capture the upside? Again, I recognize that probably isn't going to happen, but if we can move the needle 5%. Yeah. I would be elated.
- [12:02]
Jackson
You have a line. I think you mentioned to me, we were talking a while ago, that it's easier for someone to raise $3 million than to raise $300,000, especially for, like, creative people.
- [12:13]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah.
- [12:14]
Jackson
Maybe this is getting at part of your last answer, which is like, you're almost talking about creativity through the lens of, like, ignition or that kind of, like, genesis of things or originality or whatever you want to call that. Like, why is that? Maybe that specific example isn't quite the point, but, like, why is that 300k over 3 million an important. Like, what are you pointing at when you say.
- [12:35]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, I mean, it's a couple of things. I think one of the things we don't recognize, I think, is that catch 22, where in order to be given opportunity, you need to prove that you can do things. And oftentimes that challenge and that chasm prevents a lot of really brilliant people from Being able to capitalize and provide value to all. And so you often get this, this, this conundrum where. I don't know, I grew up in Iowa and you know, lucky enough to move to Los Angeles and encountered all these people who were celebrating, supposed to be really special. And I recognized they were not that much different than my friends I grew up skateboarding with. But because they had peers, friends, uncles, they could get their foot in the door in a mail room or infrastructure, infrastructure, they could prove something and then be given a little more rope and a little more rope and all of a sudden they're able to go raise a million and a half dollar seed round and take a big swing. And so the, the, the, the challenge for me is that getting that initial like $30,000 to create a T shirt company to prove that you can build something is really hard. And people often don't cross that chasm. And so the idea that it's easier for folks, even an established creator to raise a million and a half dollars to go do something really big and ambitious and fail than just do something small and prove it out and be able to incrementally get there is this interesting. I think thought that to me provoked startup ideas and other things that people could be solving for potentially. Because there is probably something between venture and bootstrapping that will need to exist.
- [13:57]
Jackson
Yes. Yeah, it's. I think agency is this sort of like, it's almost like an escalator or something where like you, there's this reciprocal relationship. One of my, one of my favorite ideas is this guy, CT Nguyen. He talks about games and like what a game designer is doing is that they're creating a tension between your abilities and your goals that's like not too far out of step.
- [14:17]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah.
- [14:17]
Jackson
Because like if you play level one of video game and it's really hard, you're gonna get bored. And if it's too easy, you're also gonna get bored. And like there's a sort of like part financial, part the world helping you, but it's like, yeah, those two things, 100k to go do a little bit. Even, even if you're Elon Musk, by the way, building SpaceX, like it wasn't like, here's a billion dollars, go, go nuts.
- [14:38]
Trevor McFedries
Totally. Yeah. I've always appreciated that because we complex video games that are able to introduce complexity to you step by step and like walk you through. I remember when Game of Thrones was massive, there was kind of a dominant narrative that like there's no more attention spans, people can't focus on anything. And I watched the first episode and it was like the white wolves of the north, like, being like, I had to take notes. And I was like, complexity done well is the most powerful thing. And people have decided to like, decline to even attempt.
- [15:07]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [15:08]
Trevor McFedries
And so I love when games and films, those things introduce all that.
- [15:10]
Jackson
I like that a lot. You have. There's this quote from Yancey Strickler that you quote, tweeted that I think is pointing at something really interesting. I'll read Yancey first. He said the idea of quote unquote, selling out implies a hopeful nostalgia of choice beyond market pressures among younger creators I talked to in whose brains the algorithm is directly embedded. Not selling out feels like an impossible luxury from a far away time, too risky to attempt, but a fantasy they dream of one day indulging. And then you quote, tweeted and you said, increasingly feels like artists who opt out of the algorithm game and produce work that isn't algo friend are seen as posh Nepo slash trust fund. Playing the algo game to survive is optically punk and honest. This is really interesting to me. Like, first off, like, when did that change? When did it feel to you that it changed?
- [16:01]
Trevor McFedries
I mean, it's been a slow boil. Like again, I'm old enough to remember like the Beastie Boys being upset their music used in adverts. And then, you know, in kind of my gen, I remember hearing like Santeegold in Budweiser commercials. And there being a gen above me that was like, this is fucking selling out. This is terrible. Why would you do that? And then living this moment where it's like, I can't afford to own at home, let alone like have a family. Of course I'm taking the Budweiser check.
- [16:26]
Jackson
Creator people should be rich.
- [16:27]
Trevor McFedries
Creative people should be rich. I think especially in the last three to four years, the kind of dominant understanding of how aesthetics flow and how ideas populate has really inverted from the kind of like Bushwick model people are familiar with, where it's like some interesting art person makes something and it gets its way to some vogue person gets the Anna Wintour, she says it's important. And it gets pushed down to a soccer mom in the Midwest to now this more middle out thing where, you know, effectively. I remember, like, I forget which TV executive talked about making television that was the least inoffensive. You know, like the most inoffensive television you can make was the one that would keep people from changing the channel. It does feel like, you know, for you, algorithms perpetuate a similar idea idea where you can go to East Berlin, you can go to Bushwick, you can go to Beverly Hills and see the same aloe yoga outfit on the street. And I think it's because culture is now middle out. You know, it's just the most inoffensive person is going to capture the most mind share and people will optimize for kind of being that person in order to get opportunities with influence or whatever else that isn't groundbreaking. But I do think as a result of that, the only people who have been able for the last four or five years to play this kind of art game and opt out of the algorithm are effective. Actively trust fund kids. Like, I don't need to name names, but I do love that meme where it's like never ask a woman her age and like an indie musician while their parents names have a blue under blue link on Wikipedia or whatever. Like, to be truly indie and like participate in a purely artistic environment while playing the culture industry game, you need to survive. And it's just gotten so dire now that the only way to do it is to effectively be a trust fund kid. So the most punk kids I know, you know, are. Are playing social. Well, whether it's like ammo on the sniffers, you know, I don't know what that is. Australian, like, you know, or like Turnstile.
- [18:18]
Jackson
Right.
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Trevor McFedries
Like, they've been able to like capture these mediums on their own terms, but they haven't opted out entirely.
- [18:24]
Jackson
Yeah, it's interesting. It's like one, one question I. That's really dumb that I found myself like wondering as I was thinking about this is like, are we gonna get to the point where like, slop is punk or like, there's like, you're sitting inside of this tension, which is like, at what point can you like, play the algo game and still do all that other stuff we were just talking about, about creating something actually new and still be like, by the way, regardless what you think about Warhol, whatever, like, being commercial can be really interesting.
- [18:53]
Trevor McFedries
Certainly. I think it's funny. I had a conversation, I've been doing these kind of like gatherings at my home to connect Silicon Valley friends and artist friends. And there's this like this theme in Silicon Valley about taste and how taste is so. And I, I brought together, you know,
- [19:08]
Jackson
which is almost becoming slop. Like that narrative is like at this point is so regurgitating.
- [19:12]
Trevor McFedries
Exactly. And I brought all these artists together who aren't on, you know, those in those X Feeds and aren't aware of this stuff, but have, you know, Biennale, really important work. And they were here and the AI people were kind of assuming that they would, like, agree with that sentiment, that they were like, you know, the AIs don't have intuition, which is why they can't do great art. Yeah. And all the artists were like, I don't know, I think a lot of that stuff is really good. And they were kind of like, wait, what?
- [19:39]
Jackson
Whoa.
- [19:39]
Trevor McFedries
And so I do think there's absolutely going to be a moment where, you know, slop is punk and interesting. You're seeing some interesting. Some examples starting to emerge. But I also think what's clearly interesting now are the models themselves and like, you know, creating in latent space. And I think that as people begin to appreciate that, as they have the kind of the contextual awareness of how these models work, they're going to really appreciate some of those things. And I think it will be probably uncomfortable. Comfortable for researchers at the big labs to be like, I'm the artist. I'm making those interesting.
- [20:10]
Jackson
At least I'm making the medium or whatever.
- [20:12]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, I'm making the most interesting cultural work of the moment. And I think a lot of artists would be like, yeah, absolutely. Like, I clearly, I made this cool wall work. But, like, what you're doing is. Is absolutely reflection, the most important reflection of this current cultural moment.
- [20:24]
Jackson
I think it's really, like, I think maybe I'm just too on Twitter. Like, I. I would be shocked if most people would have any intuition that like, quote unquote, real artists or serious artists felt that way. Like, and maybe part of that is that I should probably be careful here. But, like, the. The sort of mid wit artist on the Internet is just complaining about, like, you say the words AI and they're gonna, like, have a meltdown.
- [20:48]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. I would say, like, capital A art. Art world versus, like, you know, an art world that, you know, this is dangerous as well. Like, so I remember I really wanted to go to design school. I want to go to risd. That was my dream. I was a football player and I could go for that for free. So I ended up doing that instead. But I would take these summer programs.
- [21:08]
Jackson
So many possible timelines in your life.
- [21:10]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, bizarre. I remember to Otis Design School here in Los Angeles for a summer program. And I was just really intrigued as to, like, how to meet these artists that were just like me. And when I was confronted with the people that would just draw, like, anime and hentai and dragons, and they were really Good at drawing dragons, but there weren't really any new ideas. And where I found the people that I was drawn to were actually in, like, you know, the corners of 4chan, or, like, random streetwear stores, places that were emergent and actually quite interesting. And people that wanted to find, like, net new forms of expression would kind of huddle around.
- [21:47]
Jackson
Yeah, yeah. What do you think the relationship. I think this is very related, and it also. A can of worms. Like, what do you think the relationship between authenticity and creativity is? Is authenticity. I think one thing I felt myself feeling is like, authenticity is almost, like, ridiculous. At least when it became an aesthetic. Is it even worth talking about? Maybe the other part of this question would be like, is there such a thing as pure art or creativity or originality?
- [22:15]
Trevor McFedries
I would say there is, conceptually. But when I talk about creativity or even authenticity, it's like talking about Nirvana. It's this end state that I think you can aspire towards, but I'm not sure that it's achievable. I do think authenticity was maybe like the buzzword. It was like the taste of five, 10 years ago. And because we were doing Mikayla at the time, that was often a question I was confronted with by, like, new hires or VCs or whatever. And what I always tried to explain to them is that authenticity can take a lot of different forms. And I think ultimately what I'm looking for in great artwork is honesty, like a connection to you, who is themselves a divine bridge to something. And, you know, actually this is a bit of a tangent, but I was in that Timothee Chalamet, Bob Dylan moment. There was an interview with Bob Dylan where they were talking about his songwriting process, saying, you wrote these songs so long ago, you know, and he more or less alluded to the fact he's, like, not able to do that anymore. And I thought it was, like, really compelling. Also terrifying, because as someone who, like, wants to tap into that divine stream all the time, the fact that it can come and go, I'm very aware of it in a songwriting room because you watch writers that are just like. And you're like, whoa, where did that come from? But in building organizations and these kind of marathon things, it's less clear. That said, I think the authenticity piece and what I would relate that to is there are creative people who do commerce explicitly. And I always think about K pop. They didn't write those songs. They didn't style those clothes. They didn't choreograph those dance moves.
- [23:51]
Jackson
What a beautiful machine.
- [23:52]
Trevor McFedries
What a Beautiful machine. And they appreciated the machine. And I often will get into these, these arguments with peers who are like, I don't understand why you love Rihanna, but you hate these imposters and these people that you think are like, taking attention from people that are actually creative. And I'm like, I love Rihanna because she's not telling me she's making a two Michelin star steak. She's like, here's a cheeseburger. And I'm like, I do love cheeseburger. This is fantastic. I get frustrated when someone's like, look at this two Michelin star steak. And I'm like, I know all of those references that you're biting just because you're repurposing them. Yeah. Or it's just borrowed nostalgia. Right. And I like, I actually seeing this thing now, which is quite interesting. Like, Silicon Valley has gotten into cultural critique and consciousness and kind of these more abstract concepts, and the very uncool humanities are getting quite cool. And there's an emergent founder who's like, seen the Adam Curtis films, who can be like. And like, paraphrase. And these VCs are like, wow, how do you know this?
- [24:53]
Jackson
Damon McLuhan, we got it all. Yeah, I've done some of that myself.
- [24:56]
Trevor McFedries
No, but I think that's why you're especially able to connect these dots. But I think again, you can do it in a very honest way where you're learning and it's an interest of learning. And there are people that are like, I have this new idea. Yeah, this is the thing, you know? And that's the frustration I often have where I'm like, if you just want to get rich, like sell real estate, don't purport to be some poet or philosop philosopher and just repurpose ideas for people that aren't familiar with them. That's where I get all riled up.
- [25:20]
Jackson
Jackson, why the borrowed nostalgia thing came up a few times in my research. Like, why. What do you mean by that? And what, what do you. What is so frustrating about that? And specifically, like, I think you gave one example of Amy Winehouse, but like, what, what is the line between borrowed nostalgia and like every. Nothing's truly new, but it can be remixed in a way that feels really new.
- [25:40]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. I mean, again, I think there's like, there are people who act as a divine bridge and they're able to interpret their environment and kind of share that moment and reflect on that moment with people in really honest ways. And I think, you know, Amy Winehouse, I always use Cause people are like, amy was doing nostalgia. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Amy was taking an interpretation in a style and then parsing it through her lived experience. You know, like, talking about rehab, you know, through a jazz lens is new. It's novel. She's standing on the shoulder of giants, but she's parsing it through her lived experience. That's really important. I think that the reason the nostalgia piece is so tough for me is, as a millennial, we had this generation that effectively was able to do that trick at scale. There's a bunch of Gen X that didn't know anything. And we were like, fuck, I have the Internet. I can just put on a gold chain and reference some 80s rapper and some K rock, you know, dud guy or radio programmer is like, whoa, this is a hip hop aesthetic with a rock thing. This is crazy.
- [26:40]
Jackson
I've never heard anyone say it like that. That is so unbelievable. Like, it was like, you got the answers to the test.
- [26:47]
Trevor McFedries
Totally. And you could. You could. You know, you could cheat in real time on the test and blow minds. And so there were all these people that effectively got to larp, all these different eras people weren't familiar with, and kind of pass through these gates, which everyone wanted to tear down the gates. Like a bunch of millennials. We were like, this sucks. I want to make the decision. I can tell this is dishonest. And then we removed those gates, and we were like, maybe some. Maybe some of the gates were good. The gatekeepers. Can you bring them back? But that's my war on nostalgia.
- [27:14]
Jackson
Yeah. Before we go into the next thing, I just want to mention the Bob Dylan thing. Like, I think what I. The optimistic part of that would be. I don't know. You hear so many artists, so many musicians in particular, they just, like, the songs come from God or whatever. Like, it came to me in a dream, whatever, Whether it's Bob Weir or Rosalia or whatever. And there's this, like, loose grip on that. I think that I'm Bob Dylan and I did it in the past, and I can't do anymore. Like, that's pretty tragic. But I wonder if you have, like, a looser grip on. Just, like, sometimes they come, and I want to be ready for when they come.
- [27:48]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah.
- [27:49]
Jackson
But. Oh, man, I. It's got to be hard when you. Yeah.
- [27:52]
Trevor McFedries
Kind of two minds. I don't know much about soccer or football, but my friend Alonzo was talking to me about Messi as being this. Just like. Like this gifted savant, and Ronaldo being This, like, workhorse. I. I find a lot of that in songwriting and artistic practice. You know, there are founders. You talk to a collison, and you're like, oh, I don't have that gear. You know? Like, I just. I don't. I'm not going to get there. But maybe if I find other ways to create edge, I can. I can get to this thing that I'm really proud of. And. And I. And I respect both. And to me, it's almost like a spiritual thing. Right. Like, there are monks who I imagine have, like, this divine light. They're just connected immediately. And there are people who have to spend a lot of time getting deep into themselves and closer to God, and that's. That's how I interpret the practice, and I want to honor both.
- [28:39]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [28:39]
Trevor McFedries
I'm actually probably more aligned with, you know, the Ronaldo, because I find myself, like, I'm. I'm not a gifted musician. Like, I just poke buttons and turn knobs until it sounds cool, and it's a struggle. And when I go into sessions and people say, oh, that flat fifth isn't that chord. I'm like, I don't. Is it this thing? Or, like. And it's heartbreaking, but it's. It's also this blessing. I get to find something and let it kill me.
- [29:04]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [29:04]
Trevor McFedries
A lot of different areas.
- [29:05]
Jackson
Yeah. It's almost like you're not a native speaker, but you're trying. The other thing that's interesting to me is you, like, Jerry Seinfeld comes to mind. But there's so many creatives who talk about this. Sort of like, I was talking to Gabe Whaley actually about this with the stuff they do at Mischief, too. Like, they schedule their brainstorms. It's actually this, like, Seinfeld. It's like he goes in the room, and he has to. Is the legal pad. He doesn't have to write, but he's not allowed to do anything else for, like, three hours. And it's like, discipline. Scheduled discipline sort of is like, giving you the best surface area for the inspiration to happen.
- [29:37]
Trevor McFedries
Agreed.
- [29:37]
Jackson
Which is maybe more Ronaldo. Like, maybe you're not walking into the room as messy or whatever, but there's something I think beautiful about that, too, which is like, I'm ready for the inspiration if it ever comes.
- [29:47]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. And it's interesting because you could kind of argue both, like, you know, what is it? Buffett and Bill Gates that they don't have calendars or whatever? And, like, they're effectively doing the work, they're creating Space to do the work, but they're also creating space for like the divine law, lightning to strike.
- [30:01]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [30:02]
Trevor McFedries
And so, yeah, I think a lot. Again, to me, it is probably very spiritual. And the older I get, the more I could probably relate a lot of these things to spiritual practices. But ultimately they seem to be reflections of reflections. Like, you know, you can see the fractals and all of these things.
- [30:15]
Jackson
We talked about instruments at the very beginning. I want to talk maybe to set up our conversation about crypto. There's a couple of quotes from you and that I think are particularly interesting as this backdrop that, like, depending on when you cut, slice it. Although for many people, crypto is like always low status and just. There's a lot of disdain. This is you then this thing about blockchains, about tokens, the hyper financialization of our lives. I've had such disdain for it. But if you invert that and try to create better instruments for capturing value, you can attribute that value and pass it back. Part of what you were just saying, and then another section from you. After reading debt the first 5,000 years of money by the late anarchist anthropologist David Graer, Trevor found himself asking, like, what is value? And he followed that destabilizing thought to a liberating conclusion. It's whatever we collectively decide it is. One of the reasons that I love crypto or an Internet of value is that we have really antiquated vehicles for representing value. He says he believes crypto enables better instruments for assigning value to all things. This idea of like, value being something we can tinker with seems at the core of that. Like, I guess I'm curious why you consistently find yourself being drawn back to this thing, despite all of the cases for doomerism and all of the disane and all the hyper financialization and the SBFs and all of that. Like, there's some hope dream thing that you're seeing. Like, what? What is that?
- [31:38]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, I mean, there's so much in there. I think there is a spiritual and psychological war. Like, you know, there is, there is a desire to move people to a higher state of consciousness. I. I don't know. There are plenty of people doing this that, God bless them, they're really good at that. And then. And I think there are. There a lot of people who are kind of on the opposite end of the spectrum are looking at purely utilitarian ways to like, help people get to the next meal or to, you know, the next moment. And I think what I've uniquely been able to do because of my life trajectory is, you know, kind of live what I say from the squat to the yacht. Like I, I actively engage with like, you know, shithead crust kids crusties and like I still have all of like tycoonian anarchist friends who are on no fly list. And I have billionaires speak in my house about AI, you know, and I think that was a function of moving from Iowa to LA when I was 16 and having, you know, art aspirations, but kind of recognizing my place in the universe as being someone that can be this connective tissue. And I think I've joked in the past that like I've always wanted to be the chef that makes two Michelin star corn dogs. Like I, I moved to LA, I had never had sushi until I was 19. I had a California roll and I threw it up. It was like too advanced. You know, I was raised on like not even Taco Bell. I was raised on Taco John's, you know, like knockoff of knockoff. And the idea that there were people who could contribute if they had some kind of connective tissue is what I was interested in. So there is this kind of like psychological and spiritual war. And they're, they kind of need someone to say like, man, I actually know how venture capital works. You can say 2 and 20 to friends of mine in the art world. They have no idea what that means. And I also am deeply rooted in the history of culture and music and I'm interested in the right people winning. And so if I can effectively be a low status person who can larp as a high status person and maybe a high status person that can larp as a low status person. I can be this translator and use this collective tissue. And I also think, think from the kind of more utilitarian angle. Low status games are often like the best way to repurpose value. Just historically when you learn the history of Hollywood, I often, you know, talking to my contemporary art friends, I'm like, if I was just a pure artist, I would be in Saudi right now. You know what I mean? I mean like where else are you going to find someone who's like $3 million to like build a really compelling object, like take a flyer. But I want it to be here year and it's day class A and people in America will be like Middle east money. But that's what like people in France were saying about America not that long ago. This was the day class A, we are new money, we are low status. You know, like Ralph Lauren is a Jewish kid from the Bronx. Who changed Ralph Lipschitz, who changed his name to, like, Ralph Lauren and started pretending to be a kid from Connecticut and was able to play this game so well that he created this whole fantasy that became real. And. And I think that's a tangent that I'm also interested in. Like, I love Lana Del Rey way because her dishonesty is so internalized. It's real.
- [34:46]
Jackson
Like, yeah, talk about authenticity.
- [34:48]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. Like, Lana can tell you, you know, she was, like, living in a trailer park, like, smoking meth with the local, like, rodeo guy. And I'd be like, I know it. I believe you. My whole chest, my whole heart. Even though you were like, your dad was a domain broker and had hundreds of millions of dollars or whatever it is. Like, you've internalized these things so deeply that, like, you know, schizophrenia is real.
- [35:08]
Jackson
Yes, yes. There's an idea I've struggled to articulate over the years, but I think sort of more or less is that identity can be a projector and a mirror. And it's intuitive that it's a projector. Like, if you put on. If you dyed your hair green or have a mohawk, like, people are going to perceive you differently, but after enough time, you're going to perceive yourself differently, which is pretty profound.
- [35:27]
Trevor McFedries
Absolutely. Like, we are who we pretend to be. And that fake it till you make it thing is one of. I think it's one of the things that's so easy to articulate, but to truly live it it and to become that is a real blessing to experiencing. Watching people overcome that imposter or whatever it is and just live it. Commit. And you see it in la, like, you see the Pirates.
- [35:46]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [35:46]
Trevor McFedries
They're still doing like an 80s hair metal thing. And they live it. You're like, that rocks. Good for you.
- [35:52]
Jackson
Do you think there are a lot of people who are really living it in crypto?
- [35:55]
Trevor McFedries
There are obviously a lot of imposters, but a lot of them have left. I like crypto a lot right now. People are in AI.
- [36:00]
Jackson
The weirdos are hanging around.
- [36:02]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, it's just like freaks and weirdos and people that are, you know, probably unemployable a lot of places, and they're, you know, I wonder. I haven't thought a lot about it, but I'm sure, like, you encounter it, you know. The other day I went to Shake Shack with my fiance, get a cheeseburger, and she's pregnant, and I was, like, carrying all these things, and this guy just went above and beyond and helped us. I started talking to him and he was just so articulate, so curious, so thoughtful. You know, I was asking him what he do. He going to school, told him I work in technology. He had all these thoughts about AI, like really, like, poignant stuff. Stuff like could explain a transformer, you know, which is like what Most of the VCs I engage with, like, couldn't.
- [36:41]
Jackson
Right.
- [36:41]
Trevor McFedries
And so there is this kind of, like, neat Reddit, you know, kind of lost individual who's deeply curious, but maybe doesn't have the tools to kind of contain it, articulate it, such that they can, like, you know, it's parsable by whatever institutional powers it be. Yeah. She's not quite legible. And, you know, some. Some part of me is really interested in identifying those people and giving them power and giving and teaching them how to become legible. And I think crypt full of those people, which is so fun. I think that's one of the reasons I love hanging out in a telegram with a bunch of, like, racists and, like, insane anime PFP people.
- [37:17]
Jackson
Yeah. So there's some. There's somebody human underneath.
- [37:20]
Trevor McFedries
There is. There's someone human underneath who read the wrong white paper or the wrong.
- [37:25]
Jackson
Something out. They read too much Curtis or whatever.
- [37:27]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, yeah, totally.
- [37:29]
Jackson
There's. Okay, so there's this thing that has been happening for a while that you, I think, are very interested in, which is that attention and capital are compressed, guessing back to the idea of things being financialized. And I think this is interesting, maybe through the lens of, like, things being legible, because part of what I think financialization of things does is it brings things to the forefront. This is you, you say this is the definitive mutation of the early adopter. The 2000s hipster, discovered bands in basements and hoarded their finds like trade secrets, terrified of mainstream contamination. Today's equivalent, what Nemesis calls the creative director, still wants to be early, but they want everyone else to show up pre, preferably with liquidity. Creative directors aren't gatekeeping, they're shilling. Being first isn't about protecting your scene. It's about getting in at the bottom of the bonding curve and waiting for your idea to graduate to the decks. Cultural capital has merged with financial capital. Great writing.
- [38:24]
Trevor McFedries
Thank you.
- [38:26]
Jackson
Maybe with that backdrop of, like, the weirdos that the Internet has always been good at, sort of like having a place for, like. I'm curious how you think about when. When it. When attention and culture are, like, full, fully financialized, does something about them fundamentally change? Do you actually have less room for the. This was, at least selfishly, like, one of my frustrations of crypto is like, the financialized part of it and the speculation part of it sort of like clouds everything else out. You have something that's bubbling up to the surface, and all that weird stuff you were just talking about is, like, hidden away somewhere.
- [38:58]
Trevor McFedries
And I think what I am trying to figure out how to express is that all of the stuff that's being obscured needs to be obscured because we're entering into a new era. And I think it's as uncomfortable as it was from the move from, like, modernism to postmodernism. You know, like the urinal. Like. Like Duchamp being like, no, this is an art. I'd be like, that's not a fucking art object. Like, where is the craft? Where is the skill?
- [39:24]
Jackson
Yes.
- [39:25]
Trevor McFedries
And I think that's like, the great tension. And I applaud people in Silicon Valley and the broader, you know, technology world for wanting to champion what they see as art. But I think what myself and other artists have been talking about a lot, kind of behind the scenes, is that the act of creation is not that different from the act of speculation. If you squint, this idea that you have a belief about the future and you want to express it via a medium and have it, you know, validated or perceived by your peers or maybe recognized in a market is something that all of the artists that, you know, people champion do because those models are so antiquated or laggy. By the time you get your work to an art fair, by the time you get the album out, by the time you get the film out, it often feels dated, you know, And I think what's tough for people that are actually interesting is you watch the new Paul Thomas Anderson film and you're like, oh, cool. Like a conversation about, like, incels and, like, civil war and a bunch of, like, 60 year olds are like, how rapid, radical this is. This is a reflection of our time. You're like, no, we were having that fight on Twitter 18 months ago. And so I think what. What I've recognized is that all, you know, and I talk about in that piece a little bit is my group chats where my artists, you know, visual, you know, music, filmmakers, we used to talk about prestige television or, you know, new films or art fairs. We talk about Fed rate cuts. And you're like, wait, what happened? And I think what happened is they've recognized that there are instruments for expressing beliefs that now allow them be right verifiably and with financial upside in the same way they could be with an art object.
- [41:09]
Jackson
But now it's like skipping the middle.
- [41:11]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, skipping the middle. And without a 50% vig to your. Your curator. Right. And I think, like, meme coins and prediction markets are like bad instruments. But when the game before was you could bet on wheat futures if you understood weather patterns. Like, they have an information advantage because they're a meteorologist. Okay, well, like, I have an information advantage because I'm a cultural savage.
- [41:31]
Jackson
Want.
- [41:31]
Trevor McFedries
Why can't I have thousand x asymmetric upside? And so, like, that, to me, I think is the great tension is these people have these very narrow ideas of what, like, an art community is and what a finance community is. And there's like the. The Patagonia vests and the Bushwick babes. But to me, I'm actually interested in saying, like, instead of those people living in opposition, which is a fool's game for the Bushwick babes, because these guys have nukes.
- [41:53]
Jackson
Yes.
- [41:54]
Trevor McFedries
And they have financial nukes.
- [41:55]
Jackson
Yes, yes.
- [41:56]
Trevor McFedries
And you have, like, sticks, you know, bows and arrows. Like, we can give you nukes too. And you can have a real meaningful advantage against these people in markets. And you can have asymmetric upside in the yachts. So, like, why not?
- [42:09]
Jackson
So many of these things come down to, like, don't hate the player, hate the game, I think, too. Or, like, and there's a lot of hating of the game in a broader thing that. I don't know if you've written about this publicly, but you kind of talk about this idea of the belief economy and you have this specific frame around making, to framing, to predicting that partially is encapsulated in what you just said. But I think it would be helpful. Helpful for you to talk specifically about, like, that. Danko has also written about this in the Shift, kind of post. Post modernism. But, like, what is that shift? I think it's also worth hitting on the framing part. I think most people sometimes sort of feel like we're still in that totally because it's thing in the past. And then obviously this new thing.
- [42:41]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, I love Danko's piece. And so there's a group of friends which maybe I would call like, the new models extended universe. And that goes to, like, Arthur at Trust, Citarella, Jeffrey Citarella, Holly Hernan, and Matt Dr. Hurst. You know, the nemesis folks like Dan Keller is here now, not part of the models. Like, I think we've been deeply frustrated because we're people that are interested in progress and technology for us has all of this white space and all of this incredible opportunity for Progress, but post, you know, Trump election, and I think the artistic world, seeing technology as these enablers of dictators, of tyrants, as, you know, Russiagate, whatever, like, you felt disenfranchised from both a bit. And so we've kind of had to talk in isolation for a bit about the world that we see in front of us and then the world we encounter when we go to a Biennale and just see, like, aboriginal artworks and wall works and sculptures that could. They're not meanly different than they were 20, 30 years ago. And so I think, in my opinion, in Danko's opinion, in, like, the group chats, this kind of, like, thing that's ethereal and in the air that we're trying to pull out of it, it's is this idea that the people who would have been articulating ideas about what's happening, what's going to happen, have taken different forms in society over the years. And the ones we're most aware of probably are. And the framing I used in that piece were like the modernist era, where the thing you produced had all the value to this postmodernist era. We identified, actually the narrative and the framing around the thing had the most value to. Now what we're talking about with this belief economy, where the thing you were able to call or predict has. Has that same value. And I think it feels really uncomfortable for people.
- [44:26]
Jackson
Yes.
- [44:26]
Trevor McFedries
Because they're like, it's all gambling now. And you're like, well, yeah, but like, the always was meme, you know what I mean? There are always decisions being made and there are market forces, and they are, you know, their outcomes that were more opaque. And if you choose. If you. If you choose to kind of make them more visible, it's uncomfortable, but I think it's very real and it allows for. For new champions to emerge. And I think that's the part that we're all really interested in, is that predicting is very similar to creating. And if you squint, making a wall work or having an opinion about prestige television is very similar to taking a position or expressing that belief in a prediction market. A meme coin or betting on a meta. On the thing I'm working on now,
- [45:14]
Jackson
it seems almost that. That maybe a little less so with the making part, but especially the narrative, the framing part. It's almost like we ran out of scarcity there. Like, there's nothing scarce in the ability to. Again, I talked with Gabe Whaley about this. Like, going viral is like, it's shot on goal. Like, it's not Even there's no novelty there, there's no magic there. And it is interesting that sort of like consensus on the collective belief. Belief is maybe not fundamentally scarce, but relatively rare. And that's the thing that everyone's seeking. I wonder. Like, I know one of the things I was thinking about a lot is as I went through this is just like, this feels very reactionary, even if you're right. And I think there are optimistic parts of what you're saying, like, don't we still want to incentivize people to make things? Like having all of our best people, all of our tastemakers, skip over everything thing to the anticipating, reacting to what's going to be next. Maybe we'll horseshoe. But like, I think that would if I, if I were to guess what the average sort of thoughtful person's reaction to what you're saying is. Even if all of that's true, like, are we just going to be in a world where we're all like speculating on made up memes?
- [46:30]
Trevor McFedries
Potentially? I think a lot there. I think, you know, talking about virality being shots on goal. The other thing that I maybe didn't highlight in that piece that I maybe should have talked about more, is that like, discourse is probably. The most important product of millennial culture. Like podcasts, everyone has clubhouse voice. Every dinner party you go to, people are repeating the same New York Times podcast takes or whatever it is. And we live in this sea of takes with no way to sift through what's meaningful. And so Marcus, being a tool for seek on information I think is really interesting.
- [47:09]
Jackson
Yes.
- [47:10]
Trevor McFedries
So to speak to the part about like, you know, making actual objects, I think it's really important. I just think that like robotics and AI automation are going to devalue those things.
- [47:21]
Jackson
And so scarcity again.
- [47:22]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, yeah. And so, and I think having lived through technology devaluing things, it's like, okay, who are people that you care about? I care about creative people and I want them to win. Okay, well then where do you shepherd them? I shepherd them to where the value is going. Like, and I, I think what I appreciate about Silicon Valley is they want creative people to do well, but they are effectively pushing them to where the puck is, not to where it is going. And that's why I feel like, even if dissonant, uncomfortable, I need to actively speak up and be like, hey, this matters. Go here, get the resources such that you can impose your will and point of view on the world. Because it's important that you do, because
- [48:00]
Jackson
you're figuring this out once. You won't almost.
- [48:02]
Trevor McFedries
I mean, I think, yes, we'll figure it out once you've won, but I also think we're being quite thoughtful about it. Like I, you know, and, and I think this is uncomfortable to hear as well. But part of growing up is that there are people that make decisions in the world and you can either have a seat at the table and influence or not. And, you know, the all in podcast has, you know, extraterrestrial at this point influence. There's a space force. And if we can shepherd people from having conversations on dialectic into having seats at the most powerful tables in the world, I would like that in order to do that, they probably will need to have meaningful capital and meaningful amounts of verifiably correct takes.
- [48:45]
Jackson
Yes. Okay, so this is interesting. One of the things you said a couple times, you just got it at the end, is that markets are a way to get to at least one kind of truth. Certainly this is a pretty profound idea. Obviously the prediction market kind of stuff. Lots of different, different things. It's a market driven truth. I'm curious what you think about, if you have any thoughts broadly on like, what that truth is and if it differs from other types of truth we might have. And then on top of that, like, does that truth line up with what creative people are trying to get closer to? Maybe back to the other thing around authenticity and honesty or whatever the things maybe creatives are normally sort of trying to get at.
- [49:24]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, and this is a sticky one. Right. Um, so I guess the framing I would use is like in a pre enlightened world, there's effectively like magic and like a divine interpretation of truth and like ideas. And I think in this post truth environment, like there's so much, takes so much, you can find your truth. In your research, there's been a return to magic. And I think what's, what's interesting for me is that again, like, like, if you think about it in kind of like less contemporary terms, like in a tribe, there were kind of people that created magic and were able to like define what truth is 100%. And I think that like, you know, obviously the narratives and the stories that control our lives that define those truths, whether it's capitalism or neoliberalism or whatever it is. And so the thing that I'm interested in truth right now and in markets being able to, to I guess reveal truth is that, and this is again an uncomfortable reality, truth is subjective in a lot of ways. And what you're seeing, I think in Capital markets at the highest level is this unwinding of this like, efficient markets hypothesis and retail effectively, like running over some of these value investors and Steve Cohen's of the world. And you're like, what's going on? And I think the idea that we can stay longer than you can stay solvent is like, quite poignant. The Wall street bets thing, like, there, there are PE ratios and then there are a bunch of like, redditors who are like, no, actually those don't matter. And effectively, at some point there's a tipping point where like a PE ratio, which is just a meme, you know, it's, it's, it's truth, but it's, it's a collectively accepted truth. Like, it's.
- [51:11]
Jackson
By the way, when we say truth here, I think what we kind of mean is consensus.
- [51:14]
Trevor McFedries
Exactly. And I think like, at some point, consensus tips. And I think that again, is the opportunity. Right. And I think that's what, like, great. What I would describe as like, creative people do. You can tell, you can be Karl Marx or the, you know, the Chicago School Boys or whomever you want, and you can come up with a narrative that people internalize and manifest and turn into real actions in the real material world. And all of a sudden that is the dominant form of our, of our, of our everyday lives. And truth. Yeah, again, you're pulling me to, into cancelable territory. But, like, I think it's really interesting.
- [51:50]
Jackson
I think it's really interesting there. I guess we've been talking a lot about it from the lens of like the creative person. One of the first interviews I did, or early ones, was with Jacob Horn, and he had this line where he's basically like the. There's a difference between speculation and gambling along the lines of your belief economy, which is like, speculation is sort of putting weight behind or stakes behind something that you want to be more likely. I guess I'm curious how you're thinking about that now and how you're thinking about the ways that like having more hard incentives versus soft incentives from the like crowd to push the tastemakers or whatever else we want in a certain direction. Like, one version of this one instrument is meme coins.
- [52:38]
Trevor McFedries
Sure.
- [52:38]
Jackson
Like, I think a lot of people look at that and they're just like, what? Like, this is. This is. Yeah, there's nothing here. What is. And you can be as specific or not specific as you like, but like, what is a version of this that is good for creatives, for all the stuff we talk about, for musicians, for visual artists, for like, even Just cultural tastemakers. Like, what do you think that starts to look like? Where regular people can be at home with their favorite creator or favorite artist or whatever and, like, speculate on them in a way that I'm investing in five likes or whatever.
- [53:08]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, yeah, totally. Um, so I think, you know, kind of set the state of play right now. Jesse Walden kind of describes his current meme coin moment as like a. The 4chan moment. And there is like an emergent Reddit or Twitter moment that will allow people to kind of to have these takes in a synonymous or anonymous way and find community and kind of do all the things that social media and those kind of. Those. Those chans. Those evolve. Chance enabled us to do. The current state of meme coins is, you know, a bunch of degenerates in the wild, wild west, effectively launching tokens that represent some idea or meme, and then people speculate on how much attention they will get. The problem, in my opinion, and I think I would say that the pros, in my opinion, are we've created an instrument that allows creative and cultural people, people at least aware of how information flows.
- [53:57]
Jackson
Bushwick girls or whatever.
- [53:58]
Trevor McFedries
Tibet. Right. And maybe some Bushwick girls yet. But there are, you know, it's the
- [54:04]
Jackson
Frank, the telegram guys, the weirdo.
- [54:06]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, it's honestly, it's like Fortnite kids.
- [54:09]
Jackson
Yes.
- [54:09]
Trevor McFedries
You know, and I think it's really unsexy for people to go look at a bunch of, like, spurgey Fortnite gamers who are, you know, betting on whether Ani Elon's like, AI companion will get enough attention or not. It feels bleak, but it also has opened the aperture such that you can squint and see a world where if you have. If you have an information advantage on whether skinny jeans I tweeted about will become popular again or mainstream again. I think it would be fantastic if you could express that belief and have the asymmetric upside that Bill Ackman has. Bill Ackman has fucking takes. Why listen to Bill Ackman more than ever? Yeah, because, you know, he. Because he has billions of dollars from taking asymmetric bets. I need to approach some girl and say, may I meet you? You know, like, why does he have influence? And why couldn't the Bushwick be a witch?
- [55:01]
Jackson
The Internet may have memed that into being real thing now, but I know
- [55:04]
Trevor McFedries
it actually probably does. Bang. If I was a single man, I might go out there and see who's like, brain rot is me at the local bar. But. So I think. I think that what we. What we would need. I think there's a few things. I think you need attention, instruments that can persist. The time horizons for meme coins right now are so small. I mean, even if you think Mom Donnie is going to be mayor and there are 400 Mom Donnie coins, a, you're not able to pick the right one. But even if you do, it might pump and rug in two hours. And if you're a person who isn't your average, average fortnite enthusiast, those attention spans are too small for you to pick and probably win.
- [55:40]
Jackson
On that note, for a second, I think most people who have like ever heard that example are just like, oh, obviously it's prediction markets. Like prediction market. Like, could you talk about maybe an example of something that you think is like better served by whatever it is that you're pointing to that's more nebulous rather than like, there's something about whatever sports and politics that are pretty deterministic.
- [55:59]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. Like, so, yeah, I think prediction markets are great deterministic. I think things that have like kind of discrete outcomes.
- [56:04]
Jackson
I think skinny jeans is a.
- [56:05]
Trevor McFedries
Maybe skinny jeans is a soft one. Right. And so I think a couple of different things. So we'll start with the obvious. I think there are soft things that don't have probably resolutions that everyone could
- [56:16]
Jackson
agree on the scale a little bit.
- [56:18]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. And so the question for me often is like, okay, if this thing is soft and squishy and we can't get an elegant resolution, that's probably better served as a market where people can vote with their dollars. I don't know how much attention is going to get and you can just see a real time scoreboard. The other thing is, I think, you know, the illiquidity of prediction markets and the lack of fungibility.
- [56:38]
Jackson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [56:39]
Trevor McFedries
To me creates a lot of interesting challenges. And beyond that, like, bonding curves are magic, you know, like if you haven't played with meme coins and you do, there's a very regular occurrence where people will bet $10 and make a hundred thousand because of the convexity of those bonding curves and the way they're shaped. On the other hand, if you get a 20% return on prediction market, that's fantastic. A 2x3x is fantastic. You know, because most of these markets, I think most of the liquidity in these books, whether it's sports or politics or anything, there are these sharps that are so advanced, like the edge 200%.
- [57:17]
Jackson
It's interesting that you say that. Like, I think most people's Intuition is actually like the correct thing is that you can get a 20%, like the prediction market thing, and that the $10 into 100,000 is actually like a broken novel feature of it just being weird and like immature.
- [57:32]
Trevor McFedries
Yes.
- [57:32]
Jackson
And you're almost saying the opposite. You're actually saying like, that's, that's the thing.
- [57:36]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. I think, like, to me, and I think this is like, maybe as bizarre as like Duchamp's urinal. Like, the broken and immature is the alpha. And what artists are great at, like Duchamp being like, this thing you piss in is art is not something that a market would value.
- [57:51]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [57:51]
Trevor McFedries
And I think that is, you know, like Warholian tin can, you know, soup can. Like, that is effectively what, what bonding curves allow people to create a market and be like, no, actually this is important. And you're like, that isn't important, that's slop. And you're like, no, trust me. And what? Great.
- [58:06]
Jackson
Well, this back to slop becoming punk maybe. I don't know.
- [58:09]
Trevor McFedries
Totally. And I think what like, great collectors have been able to do historically is like, take the aside of that bet and be like, yeah, I want all these Warhols and this basket guy that can't draw. I think it rocks, actually. And, and I think that that is the opportunity on both sides of that market.
- [58:24]
Jackson
I want to talk a little broader about speculation. I don't know, it feels like the, the gambling, the, the sort of speculation in culture is out of control. People are starting to talk about it. And your big kind of maybe not counter, but at least thing that's cutting through a lot of that is it's rational to speculate a couple of things from you. All the crypto ideologues will tell you that the Trenches are the death of crypto and it's all extraction and brainless. But they're wrong, obviously. For my pov, the Trenches are a lot of people making very rational decisions about how they should spend their time and their energy to create the best outcomes for themselves and their loved ones. I also think they' underserved. Lots of people building for devs, creators, vibe, coders, whatever, but not a ton of people building for someone trying to turn $20 into $40 to buy Chipotle. Obviously, like, there's this sort of silly super micro version of this. There's the like broader financial nihilism thing. Like, what are you seeing? Like, what is happening for 20 year olds? And like, why is, why is it rational to speculate?
- [59:23]
Trevor McFedries
I think a couple of things I Think often I get frustrated because the things that are happening for 20 year olds are the same things are happening when we were 20 year olds in different moments.
- [59:30]
Jackson
Right.
- [59:30]
Trevor McFedries
We were, were like young people who wanted to make a mark on the world. And in order to do so we needed to prove ourselves. And oftentimes we could go to like low status domains and do things in order to build up enough XP to get a shot. And in parallel you need to survive. And so whether it was clipping sneakers for a generation or for me, like building ebay auction pages for like, you know, my grandparents, you're going to look for alpha. And so I think that's happening. But I think what's really awesome is like a version of the Internet that I was drawn to when as a young person reading Kevin Kelly. Whatever is happening is effectively this entirely online economy that's existed. People are spinning up meme coins, they're paying people and play digital currencies all over the world without permission to manage a discord or a telegram or to bag work in whatever way. And it's a totally like online behavior being paid in an online currency. I think it's what people dreamed of.
- [60:23]
Jackson
The irony is it's, it's not metaverse shaped enough or something. And as a result people are like, it doesn't look like Eve online and so it doesn't count.
- [60:31]
Trevor McFedries
Totally.
- [60:32]
Jackson
Or it's uglier than I wanted it to be.
- [60:33]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. And what is, I think, you know, and I had similar sentiments so I started talking to the people in the trenches and it's like, who are you? I'm 21, I live in Milanor, Missouri. I work at a bookstore part time. And while I'm there I reply guy Anom with like cas, like you know, tokens he should buy. And I'm able to turn $20 into $100. You know, I make 12 bucks an hour working at this bookstore. I could work eight hours or I could just reply guy Ansom for an hour a day and be up 100 bucks. I'm like, absolutely, it's rational. Absolutely. You should be doing those things. And it speaks to probably what will come. And it's uncomfortable because it's new. But I think again, and because we
- [61:11]
Jackson
don't believe in the underlying thing to go back to the other thing, which is actually like being ahead of consensus. Most people in the world don't believe is productive or something.
- [61:19]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. And I think it's, it's, it's easier to be out of step when you're already low Status and like, perceived as like, you know, day class A. And so I think that's often where the alpha is like, of course, if it's consensus, like any great investor, you know, contrarian. It's be contrarian and Right. And I think a lot of great
- [61:35]
Jackson
investors these days, I don't even think are that contrarian.
- [61:37]
Trevor McFedries
No.
- [61:37]
Jackson
Which is maybe part of the.
- [61:38]
Trevor McFedries
And the momentum moment, which I also kind of think speaks to like the tipping of this efficient market thing, you know, is like, I think what a lot of investors have learned also is that, you know, we don't need to name any of them, but the really intelligent ones are like, you can create media arms and you can shape consensus.
- [61:55]
Jackson
Yes.
- [61:56]
Trevor McFedries
And so you can make yourself right by having the hordes follow you. So you can take gigantic bets, shape consensus and be right, which is what Hollywood was so good at forever, you know, manufacturing consent.
- [62:07]
Jackson
And Hollywood forgot that. Or they just lost their leverage.
- [62:10]
Trevor McFedries
They're still fantastic at it, but they've lost their leverage. Right. Like what they had was they had a corner, they had, they had a monopoly on distribution media. And so now that people can do it, I think the people that have capital and media arms are like, oh, we could try to pick or we could just king make and be right long enough to exit.
- [62:34]
Jackson
It's funny how when you say it like that, it sounds a lot very similar to the new thing that's happening.
- [62:38]
Trevor McFedries
It's like
- [62:41]
Jackson
one last thing on this. There's an excerpt from the piece I referenced earlier that Danko wrote on this we're calling prediction kind of the successor to postmodernism. But he gets something interesting I'm curious for your take on, which is, he says how early or late you are to something is now an essential component, component of your relationship to that thing. The timelines and reels represent what is going on are increasingly about a single meta topic. Are you predicting it or is it predicting you? This has become the main thing that you feel and it is a complete break from the postmodern aesthetic where your consumption was wrapped in an unthreatening fuzzy blanket. It doesn't matter what time of year you arrive at Whole Foods to buy strawberries. The farm stand simulacra is recreated faithfully. The prediction aesthetic is a new thing and rejects postmodernism. Quote, I want to feel something, even if it hurts. And this is like, at least sits next to the it's rational to speculate thing, which is like, is there something else also happening here? Which is like, we all want to Feel something again. Like, gambling is both rational, but also like, in a flat algorithmic society, it's like volatile.
- [63:51]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. And I think gambling is rational, is provocative. And there's. There's so much I can say. But I think, you know, a lot of that Dicko piece I really am aligned with. There's others that I'm not. But I think he's pulling exactly the right thread. I think one of the things you're pulling at here that I like is. And this is like, kind of dark, but I remember I got on an airplane once to fly and I was like, I should look at my tweets to figure out, like, what. The last tweet I have, this plane goes down. And like, it was like a crashing the thing. But in the exact moment after that, I had this thought where I was like, at least no more email. You know, like, there was we. We live in this life that like, lacks finality to this extreme such that like, you know, at the end of my life, the kind of like the thought of it was like, damn, at least you would get. But you would be able to like, not send an email ever again. And it was. It was a bizarre thought, but it reminded me of the lack of finality in our lives, like, more broadly. You know, like all of your ex girlfriends, your 8th grade friends are in your cell phone, in your Instagram feeds. Like, we lack finality in a lot of our lives. And I think, I think it's tough, right? Everything is so ambiguous, everything's frictionless. And I think it's really comfortable to watch a basketball game and watch it resolve and things that provide finality. A scoreboard. It's actually comforting. And so I think there is something about staring at a hyper liquid perp and being like, damn, I'm up. Damn, I'm down. It's concrete. And I think there's a difference there between gambling as how people understand it. I think there's a misconception that people think people go to the slots in Vegas and they go to win or, or. Or to lose.
- [65:22]
Jackson
Like, they go to me in the
- [65:23]
Trevor McFedries
machine zone, they go to be in the machine zone, they go to disappear, right? And I think that's very different from being confronted with the finality of you're up or you're down. I think, like, yeah, you know, like basically a good job of obscuring that. Right. And. And I think what, crypto is more
- [65:40]
Jackson
the machine zone or is it more the. The frame, actual simulacrum of finality?
- [65:45]
Trevor McFedries
I find that the finality of crypto and they blur. Which is concerning. Right. Is like people have recognized that there are opportunities to implement more of Machine Zone into these things, but that's probably
- [65:55]
Jackson
more common in fantasy sports or whatever than.
- [65:57]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, I mean, you could argue whatever. DraftKings or whatever. There's all kinds of places to get lost in the machine zone or in like, you know, just mobile games. Yeah, but that said, I think Instagram
- [66:06]
Jackson
reels, for that matter.
- [66:07]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, I think I. But when I talk about the finality, like yes, the hyper liquid perp I think is compelling because you're like, I'm up or I'm down. But also the scoreboard of like, I was right versus I was wrong on a take on a belief. Like in a messy world where everything's so subjective and unambiguous. Like bitcoin hitting 100k was sick because I was rich, but it was sicker because I was fucking right. You know what I mean? And like, I think that's something that people feel across the board.
- [66:32]
Jackson
Yeah, I love that answer a lot. I want to shift a little bit, I think still connected you. I've explained you to people many times over the years and I always refer to you as sort of the person who's like most consistently like ahead of culture. And part of that, I think is that I'm sure of everyone, you know, you're not the most that, but you are. And maybe specifically you're super on the frontier of both technology and of culture, which are like kind of orthogonal things. So many things like obviously early music stuff, crypto. Mikayla, like, there's a tweet from you in November 2020. Obviously this was resonant to me. You said gaming is replacing music as the linchpin of emergent social scenes and it makes everyone 30 plus. I talk to really uncomfortable. You're the first person to ever mention political to me. Like there's so many of these things. And critically, I think the edge of culture partially means what's going to become consensus, but critically it means weird for now. And so I guess my question is, what do you think? What do you think has caused you to develop such a nose for weird, particularly in one that actually resolves to consensus.
- [67:46]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, it's a good question. I will say I'm actively trying to be more on time now. I think this is important for people that I care about. But it's a. I think. So this is a tangent, but I'm going to have a child in March and congratulations. I, you know, obviously it provokes A ton of thoughts, but one of them is like, you know, what you hope to offer them. And to me, it's just so clearly curiosity. Like, I don't care what it is that, you know, he's going to be into, but I want him to be deeply curious. And for whatever reason, I mean, I could probably. I could probably psychoanalyze myself and say, because I was like, a poor black kid who was good at sports, but put in, like, the alternative and gifted classrooms and like, middle class white Iowa, I was like, consistently othered and like, wanted to find places to a impose my will to create suffering for other people. That made me feel uncomfortable. And so it was like, it's why I played football. It was partially to be good and loved, but also, also to, like, break a quarterback's ribs when I, like, came out the corner, you know? And it. It was also the reason when we did times tables and math class, we're like, I was going to win, you know, because I wanted to feel good, but also I wanted to let you know that you're wor. Like, you're. You're not better than me. And I think that that was also a sport. That's what Nemesis was talking about. Like, in some respects, I grew up in a pretty anomalous era. Like, I'm 40 years old. I was 15 and 2,000, and I lived through this moment that I reflected on. I actually want to write something about. Maybe I should. That's been, I think, pretty detrimental to a lot of millennial men. And that is, like, historically, like, I'd watched Saved by the bell, which is 80 show you ever seen when I was young, and I was like, it's weird that the really buff jock guy is the cool guy, because I'm 14 now and the cool guy is the angular art guy. Like, the coolest movie in America is lagging. It's Garden State. And like, Zach Braff is a sex symbol.
- [69:52]
Jackson
And.
- [69:52]
Trevor McFedries
And like, Pete went on the COVID of Rolling Stone with his shirt off and is the coolest guy. And when I went on livejournal or like, these dating apps, the mode was effectively, you put like, the five books you like. I'll put the five books I like. And if you like the same books, we should date. And I was like, damn, that may have been correct. You know, And I think for, like, for nerds, candidly, like, it is. And then there was this cultural shift where, like, you watched technology, which was the dominant cultural force, move from the nerds who talk to their shoes to, like, the MBAs that took. And you watch dating apps go from you write your books and my books to, like, Tinder, which is, like, a really normal. We make eye contact at a bar. Either we keep looking or we don't. And Instagram, where it was like, dang, you look good in a bikini. Lots of likes.
- [70:39]
Jackson
Yes.
- [70:39]
Trevor McFedries
And I was kind of knocked off guard because I was like, whoa, this is, like, hyper heteronormative and masculine and sexual. And, like, I was taught to, like, meet a young woman. I should tell them that we should get married, and, like, they'll be my punk rock princess, princess. And then there's just, like, Zoomers being like, hey, baby, we should link, you know? And so I think there. I lived through this, like, bizarre moment where nerds dominated culture, and it was. It was celebrated to go into a record store. And, you know, like, I remember as a kid, I. I went to a Christian sleepaway thing in Iowa, and my friend's older brother was in an MX PX cover band, which is just, like, kind of niche pop punk stand. And I was a kid, and I watched him play, and I was like, that was awesome. And I went to the CD store in the mall, North Park Mall in Davenport, Iowa, and I was like, I want to get this punk rock thing. I think it's, like, something xx. And they were like, no Effects. And I was like, yeah, that's it. And I got a no Effects album, and I got in the punk and I went to the punk record store, and I was like, I like no Effects. And they're like, that's whack. You know, this is what you should be into. And they pushed me into, like, fugazi and, like, you know, all of this stuff that defined me, I'm still straight edge, I'm still punk. And, like, it was really celebrated to be deeply nerdy and inquisitive. And so I think I wanted to win at that sport also. And so when I got into no Effects, I needed to get to grind core or, like, needed to be at noise shows where they're running vacuum cleaners through distortion pedals. Like, that was the final boss I had to get to. And I just don't think that's that compelling anymore.
- [72:10]
Jackson
It is interesting that I suspect if you surveyed, I don't know, five different generations, you get, like, the. It's the pendulum swinging. It's like a sign curve. And, like, maybe one thing that's weird about it is, like, while you're kind of living it, media is lagging and pop culture is Lagging and so you're, you're sort of disoriented. I don't know. Like, I also wonder if just like the extremely into something thing is always going to win out over like they're extremely curious. The extremely curious always wins out. It maybe takes like a lack like you, I don't know what stretch of your life you weren't cool, but like it, it probably didn't take that long ultimately for you to like, for things to resolve.
- [72:51]
Trevor McFedries
Well, I think that's the interesting thing is like, so obviously like cool exists on different axes.
- [72:58]
Jackson
Sure.
- [72:58]
Trevor McFedries
But like, if, if you were to talk about like pop cultural cool, it's, it's, it's not clear to me that being super curious is the path. Whereas I think like, like, you know, the people that I see winning the cool game right now.
- [73:15]
Jackson
Oh, maybe because those people are on time to go back to your earlier.
- [73:18]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, I guess they, they are curious, but they're curious of like the, the contemporary moment and they're less interested in the historical context. And I think it's because things move so fast, it's like not clear that you need to have that knowledge.
- [73:29]
Jackson
Yes, yes.
- [73:30]
Trevor McFedries
And I think that's like I, I remember that brat moment, the tri XX brat moment. And it felt, felt kind of like the last hurrah for like the world that I knew where it was. Like, here's Charlie, who honestly, I've known since she was 16. We did some of our first sessions together in America in my bedroom in Silver Lake. And as someone who's always been so knowledgeable, so bright, so talented and was finally able to make the music that responded to people. But I also think more importantly, a lot of the kind of Bushwick elite, you know, like the publicists, the people at Spotify, they were able to be like, this is what it should be like. Someone making interesting, most advanced yet accessible music that references a moment that's important culturally and kind of elevates it and twists it. And I remember at the height of that going to look at the Spotify streams and being like, wow, this is amazing to see. And I look and I was like, oh, this song has like 200 million streams. That's crazy. I just went to look at the most streamed artists at the moment and like ahead of her was like the Neighborhood, you know, which is like a band that hadn't reached a record in a long time and had to get thought about, but made like really play listenable music. Or like Charlie Puth to me, who is like savant but like, you know, quite boring. And so I took it as this accomplishment. But I'm still well aware that there are tons of things most people have never heard of that are going to do far bigger numbers than that, which was able to capture, you know, whatever it is. Bushwick extended the global Bushwick.
- [75:00]
Jackson
You started that Anthony answer by saying you're trying to be more on time.
- [75:03]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah.
- [75:05]
Jackson
It's not surprising you say, like. Like, one thing that has been, like, Michaela is maybe the best possible example, but, like, you've been early, arguably too early to a lot of things. And I have to imagine that there's, like, some internal. Like, the honest version of you is way too early. And that's awesome. But, like, the back to all the commercial, like, I don't know, what is that. What is that feeling of. Of the. Obviously, on some level, like, being on time has really obvious positive outcomes, which is, like, it's commercially resonant. Your things maybe actually get to go the distance versus be the thing that the kids today are inspired by. Yeah. But I'm curious what the psychological thing is there.
- [75:49]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. And I think you also get old and tired. Like, and I think. And you kind of hope that that slows you down. Like, part of that Bob Dylan statement was like, oof, that's terrifying.
- [76:02]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [76:03]
Trevor McFedries
And I will probably go on a tangent again, but one of my best friends is a guy named Sam Teller. Sam and Elon were looking for a place for the gigafactory. And in parallel, I had been really fascinated with this idea. This is like, 2016, 2017, with getting all of my favorite brilliant people to move to Iowa. Like, I was like, man, it's actually pretty awesome. Four Seasons Drive, Chicago in two hours, where I'm from. Like, what if we just all went back and we did what you did in Williamsburg or in Silver Lake here, and you own property. And, like, and. And that evolved in this thing called actually so Ruling. And there was, like, a plan. And I was like, I think there's a way to reverse Brain Drain. It is kind of cliche tech to be like, I'll start a city. But I was like, we can go and we can basically work with economic development directors to give us incentives to. To move there. And Sam was like, you're totally nuts. But, like, we've been close to the people in Tulsa, and, you know, we're talking about building a factory there. They're really into these kind of ideas. You should just go and talk to these people. And so I went, and long story short, I met this guy named George Kaiser, billionaire, oil guy. Unbelievable, Unbelievable guy. I think like, famously was like the first person to identify Obama and like really back him. And it was deeply unpopular. But I met him and he was probably like his late 70s, if not early 80s, and he had built this like Disneyland in the center of Tulsa with free buses that go there. It makes me want to cry thinking about it. And when I met him, you know, I met him and we were on this walk. He tries to walk multiple miles a day. And he was talking about how he wants to make Tulsa this like, cultural center. And he's like, I love what you're talking about. Like, we should do this, we should bring this here. And he was like, I have all these consultants that are talking to me about what I can do to make this center of culture. And you know, one of them said, you do like an Edge Festival. And he's like, I don't think that's right. You know, and he was like, I think for like a couple hundred million, I was like a move all of Broadway and theater and ballet here. And I was like, you're fucking right, dude. Like, don't let these 22 year old McKinsey fucks tell you you're wrong. Like, you're fucking so right. You know what I mean? It's brilliant. It's like so. It's such an inspiration to me still. Wow. But what I also saw, like in his eyes was this person who was talking to me and he was like, what you want to do? I need you to do it and do it now because like, the clock is winding down for me and I. And, and it was like deeply inspiring, but also somewhat terrifying because I'm someone who's just had endless ideas and I don't know that it will just stop one day, but I do know that I'll be confronted with a reality where
- [78:24]
Jackson
it's like, you're running out of time.
- [78:25]
Trevor McFedries
I'm running out of time. I'm running out of time. I'm running out of time. And so all that is to say, I think that the Bob Dylan thing was terrifying, but also inspiring in that potentially I could slow down and be right and have enough resources that I could start to parallelize and do a lot of things and try to chew through this list.
- [78:46]
Jackson
Yes, yes, yes.
- [78:47]
Trevor McFedries
And maybe you get satiated by the time the grim reaper comes knocking, or Brian Johnson is able to extend me into perpetuity or whatever it is. But, but, but I think that's, that's part of the reason I Want to be on time. Is this, like, you know, very human fear of the clock stopping?
- [79:04]
Jackson
That's a. Quite an answer on maybe a lighter note or maybe not. What are you obsessed with today? Maybe outside of the speculation stuff we talked about, which I know you're spending a lot of time thinking about, like, what are you obsessed with today that you think the rest of us are going to catch up on, hopefully soon.
- [79:22]
Trevor McFedries
Oh, wow.
- [79:23]
Jackson
Or just anything else that's been firing sort of since. I know you were really interested in streaming streamers for a little while.
- [79:29]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that I'm absolutely interested in that. So I'm trying to think of things that are maybe less obvious. I. I'm very interested in Telegram, I don't think. Not because of crypto at all, but because I've been able to stumble into these portals where, like, teenagers seemingly can be very free. And, like, because I'm a non. I. Sometimes they let me in. But there are these channels where they all upload mp3s and they talk about the music they're discovering. And it's really interesting to me to see the stuff that they're into and, like, the. The kind of, like, revisionist history of what they think was really important when I was 20 and then talking about it. But beyond that, like, these channels where they're able to do what I was able to do on an Internet that wasn't so neutered. Like, I often get really upset thinking about, you know, the Open Window was acceptable on YouTube or really any of these platforms, save for maybe X. Like, I just don't think Tyler, the creator, could release the Yonkers video right now on YouTube.
- [80:36]
Jackson
Why?
- [80:36]
Trevor McFedries
Because he hangs himself, you know, and, like, you know, there. There's. You know, I went and watched one of my. I was playing a show in San Francisco with my DJ duo, and I was reminded of this band, Girls, that's a song called Lust for Life. And it's such a perfect encapsulation of a San Francisco that I knew. It's like, young we, like, like the 50,000 art hoes in San Francisco. Like, it used to exist. And, like, if you watch that music, music video, like, it's. It's an encapsulation of, like, this killed it, this radical band and these radical art hoes and, like, queer kids hanging out in bathtubs and clapping and jamming. What I was reminded is. I don't even know if that would be allowed because it's like, you know, young people, nudity or whatever it is. And so in these dark corners of Telegram, you're seeing it like I'm watching them post and it feels like Tumblr and a lot or like on blogs, there's like, you know, there's stuff that is horrible, like Thinspo and like, you know, anorexia posting and cutting and, you know, all the goth cliches of Tumblr that I saw that felt somewhat like rites of passage. But why? Why I had them in probably misinformed to think that that stuff had gone away, that you were living in this really, like, you know, progressive young, like people are still dealing with all these demons and they're manifesting in the same ways that I'm familiar with. And we. We push them to the margins where they still exist. And I. I think what's interesting for me is hearing them talk about culture and their experience. There are the cliches that I'm familiar with on YouTube, but when you talk to these people, and I've now kind of doxed myself as Boomer in some of them, they're able to just give me unique insights. And so I guess maybe it speaks to a pendulum that constantly swings that we're talking about. The things I'm interested in now are these unfettered cultural spaces that on the Internet, like it. It sounds silly and quite trite because a lot of us remember that, but most of stuff we interact with now is mediated by, like, algos.
- [82:29]
Jackson
You know, it's really interesting you say that because my next. The next thing I want to talk to you about and that it's come up in so many conversations I talked about with a few people on the podcast Eugene Way, like, the consensus view is actually that there are no subcultures
- [82:43]
Trevor McFedries
on the Internet anymore.
- [82:44]
Jackson
The consensus view is that, like, for whatever reason, the lack of friction, so many other things, things like we have this, like, total flattening. You. You've even talked about, like, Iowa City being more culturally interesting in New York. And I have to wonder or imagine that part of that is that it relates to something else you said, which is that New York is the sound stage for the Internet. And because of that, like everything in New York, it's the other thing. It's every Mexico City, New York, every, every coffee shop, it looks the same. It's really interesting to me that you have found obviously for a while in Discord and now in this other place, it's like, where on the Internet can you actually knock it in?
- [83:18]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah.
- [83:18]
Jackson
And that's what's allowing for the fertile ground and the Flowering and the interestingness. And like, by definition, it can't be surveyed, certainly.
- [83:25]
Trevor McFedries
And that was like one of my great gripes of like the woke moment was like, you know, inclusivity is. Is incredibly boring, you know, as like the one black dude getting VC funding. I was like, actually like, this sucks. I think we should have boundaries. Boundaries are how you define society. And like, people should be accepted, exceptional, and they should be of all kinds of all walks of life. Absolutely. But we shouldn't be like any old asshole in this place. Like, Berghain's not special because suits get in. And increasingly less interesting because some suits do get in. And so I think, like, boundaries are absolutely important. And exclusivity is like, I. I wanted to write this thing in praise of exclusivity, but I was still the CEO of a company, you know, and so I was like, maybe I shouldn't get canceled, but I absolutely couldn't agree more. Like, and maybe that is at the core, core of what I've. You know, I have very fond memories of getting fake IDs to get into shows, you know, and go places. And it made those experiences sweeter and richer. And maybe it's all psychological, but maybe it is those boundaries.
- [84:23]
Jackson
How do you. How do you find these? Like, is. Is the finding of these telegram groups sort of like getting into the party or is it something totally different?
- [84:31]
Trevor McFedries
Like. Yeah, I guess I think what's nice is I've developed, I think by. By doing the whole homework, have just developed a taste for bizarre. Like when I buy artwork, I buy stuff that I love or that I'm hate, you know, And I often find that, like, I hate that ends up being like, I love that in six
- [84:53]
Jackson
months it's doing something to me that's causing reaction. It's not, not. It's not the middle.
- [84:57]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. But I think ultimately it's like this narcissism of small differences where you're like, this is so close to thing that I am. They put like this water down or this, like this thing that I hate. I think the thing that kind of got me into this telegram was some really wild super add, you know, clip to an old break core song that I vaguely recognized with just all kinds of like anime and like wojacks and memes cut up. And it was shared from this. And you can see the forward thing in telegram from Armageddon. I joined Armageddon. And it was all this, you know, it's people being blown up by drones and Ukrainian, like Russian kids share sharing, like, you know, Crystal Castles derivatives or whatever it is. And you can just start clicking into the other things that are being forwarded from. A lot of them sucked. Some of them were like, really interesting. And then I just keep clicking and some of them get shut down or whatever.
- [85:48]
Jackson
Curiosity is the engine though.
- [85:50]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. And I think just like developing a palette for like what. What is actually good. I don't think a lot of people stop and think critically. Is this good? Is it good? And that is. Is oftentimes people are like, what can I do to be successful? And like, you can, you could just stop and do the homework. Like, why is your podcast so excellent? Like, you went and read all this stuff about me instead of like winging it. And most people don't have time to not wing it or the kind of like wherewithal to do it, but just don't wing it.
- [86:17]
Jackson
But also it's just like you have to care, like clear. Like the reason you can do this is because you care.
- [86:23]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, totally. I am. That's absolutely right. Whatever the program, bus, bus ticket, theory of excellence, whatever it's called, like, it does ring true. Like I. I do love this. I want to find new things.
- [86:32]
Jackson
Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of, at least some of the stuff you're talking about, particularly around exclusivity. And another thing, you were early too, probably not on time, although who knows. Friends with benefits and dows and. And obviously the bread stuff too. Building dapper collectives. Like, I want to talk about the exclusivity part specifically, but maybe before we get there, like, I guess just what's stands out from that era of like a bunch of things which is like crypto highs and lows, Covid building, getting super into discord building, kind of like the. At least the cultural dao. And now you also have some distance from it.
- [87:08]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. Still member, still very excited about fwb. I think what stands out, I think what was clear to a lot of us is that what crypto is doing is effectively speed running, like a history of markets and organizations. And most of these, these trials were going to end up in the exact same place that we were.
- [87:25]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [87:25]
Trevor McFedries
But I think it was important with this new coordination layer of the Internet to be like, maybe things go different.
- [87:31]
Jackson
Let's. Let's give it a go.
- [87:32]
Trevor McFedries
Let's give it a go. Right. And we can run these experiments pretty rapidly.
- [87:36]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [87:36]
Trevor McFedries
And so let's give it a go. FWB was interesting because I was still pretty. I was still of the belief that people would like fork things, copy ideas, iterate on Them. And I think at the moment we were in the crypto cycle, we were kind of more of like an extraction layer. And so the idea was to like come up with a primitive where it was like, hey, all you've ever known. This was before crypto was, you know, even remotely mainstream, in my opinion. And the idea was, okay, you've only known networks where all the value accrued to the people at the middle, the VCs and the founders and the employees. Like, there's, there's. There's a world where you can create a network where the value accrues to the people who make it interesting.
- [88:15]
Jackson
Yes.
- [88:15]
Trevor McFedries
And we created like super dumb tokenomics comics.
- [88:18]
Jackson
But by the way you made this, at least you messaged me. I got a message in fall 2020 which was pre any NFT stuff like pre. Any web three. Like this was quite. This was really, really primitive, I think for people.
- [88:30]
Trevor McFedries
And I think the idea was just to like create a spark with the dream that. And that's been some of like the bummer of Mikayla. And this is like, here's a primitive. It's exciting for you to go expand on it. And people were like, eh, we just want this. I'd rather just like cash out on this thing and like move on to the next thing that has some momentum and then cash out. And so I think there's still plenty of room for people to create these, these spaces that, you know, value can accrue to people that make them interesting. He's doing a decent job of it now. I think one of the challenge was in the Gensler era, it was pretty impossible to kind of accrue value to a token without getting into trouble. And so their, their hands were tied. But now it's like better time than ever.
- [89:08]
Jackson
Well, that's kind of.
- [89:09]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah.
- [89:09]
Jackson
One of the thoughts I had is like, oh my gosh, what a time to try to do a new version of that 100%. You know, it's more maximally commercial or whatever. But yeah, maybe on a related note to that, like, what's the relationship between community and exclusivity? Like, can those two things actually. Are they necessary for each other? Are they at odds eventually?
- [89:28]
Trevor McFedries
It's a good question. I don't know that I really interrogated it like deeply, but like, on the surface, for me at least, I think they. They live in harmony and live in tension. And I think I. I like to optimize for tension, like whatever, like bottle taxonomy of players. You kind of need these griefers. You can fuck the achievers they have something to play against. I often get, like, frustrating. People talk about politics, and they're like AOCs and Tucker Carlson. And I'm like, you absolutely need those things. Like, you need that dialectic, so to speak. And so I think for me, communities are place. Are places where boundaries can emerge and they're like petri dishes. Right. And so there's this kind of. This idea that you have, you know, this primordial. Primordial soup that turns into a community, and the community can spawn, like, a lot more priorial soups that spawn into these, like, boundary communities. And I'm not totally sure how one emerges or one begets the other, but that's how I see it in my head. Yeah.
- [90:23]
Jackson
On that maybe on that note, like, can I guess my question was going to be, can these things scale? Maybe part of what you're saying is, like, scale doesn't mean them getting infinitely bigger. It means spawning off new replicas or remixes or something.
- [90:36]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. I think at the height of fwb, when I look loved, is there people that only hung in the trading channels, and then there was, like, just the parenting bros that were just sharing and there were different parts of their lives. But to me, it felt like, oh, there's the Greenpoint crew and like, there's, you know, like the Red Hook crew or whatever. You're, like, sick. And so, yeah, I think. I think that's. That's how I view it. And I think those communities should have kind of an active tension and. And, you know, outlets for resolution. That tension begets, like, really important and interesting things.
- [91:01]
Jackson
Yeah, we talked about a little bit. Loma, I think you were. I met you. You had just started. Mikayla, maybe it was very, very early on, and even then you had these kind of two really prescient ideas, I think, which is one. And maybe this is a little bit controversial to say, but, like, the artist is the bottleneck. So I think one. One thing that you were kind of feeling around, particularly the music side of things. And then maybe almost conversely, this is something you. You said relatively more recently. But celebrities are a team sport. Yeah. And I think, like, it's so interesting to think about that. That was like, 2014 or whatever. Like, we're in a world today. You mentioned this earlier. Like, we use the word creator, and yet what we mean by a creator is the person who controls the distribution.
- [91:44]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah.
- [91:44]
Jackson
Like, we live in a world that is completely dominated by the individual who is, like, the leverage point of distribution. And even if there are other quote, unquote, Creative people behind them, they have no leverage. Bands are dead. Lala. I guess I'm curious one like to think back to like what was in your head back then. And more importantly, like, it feels like things have gone the direction you were a little worried about. Like even more extremely. Do you have hope for creativity? Feeling like a team sport again?
- [92:11]
Trevor McFedries
Certainly. And certainly I think the thing I was responding to with the artist being the bottleneck is they're kind of diminishing returns and it's creating these crabs in the brain rail dynamic that I don't think is positive. And so there I think were opportunities to create. Like, I think it was like pass through vehicles, right? Like you could think of Rihanna as this like giant like rent seeking middleman. Like everyone's on set waiting and Rihanna's got another blunt of smoke in the trailer. Like I guess we're all waiting. And so the idea that you could have these pass through vehicles where you could, you know, have value created by the, this entity on behalf of whoever is behind it, these visionary storytellers, choreographers, whatever it is, technologists and yeah, Mickey. Mickey, 100%. And I think the things I like to pursue are things that are exciting kind of spiritually because they poke at something that I think is really important to the community that I care about creative people, but also meet this tech moment. And for me I think it was less about the technology stack purely as much as I did idea of like zero marginal cost reproduction like aggregation theory and all these ideas that I felt like were radically changing this world. It was like, okay, how can we judo that? How can we kind of use it against itself to kind of like reward people? Yeah, yeah, that's cool. And so that, that was, I mean, and then I think what's more often than not in my life when you start trying to do those things, maybe this is what like hippies mean when they mean like going with the universe or whatever. Like you start doing those things and all these other things start emerging quite elegantly where you're like, oh yeah, yeah. And they're spending a ton of money on ar. And so all of these like all infrastructure merchants I can use to do this stuff and spatial computing and digital goods, these ideas that I cared about or generative media that I cared about. Just like things started popping up and like, you know, hugging face emerged and amaziom and I was like, this is fantastic.
- [94:02]
Jackson
We could scale 2016, I think.
- [94:04]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, they were still a conversational kind of like chatbot tool. When you're, I think you can identify things that are kind of floating the ether in two pretty, like dominant parts of our lives. Whether it's, you know, technology and culture and kind of start letting the ball roll in the right direction, you can kind of roll with it. I think the challenge, as you highlighted for me, is that people interpreted a lot of these behaviors and things that we did at, like, the surface level, and they're like virtual influencers. And because we were so attached to the bit of being in the story for the Michaela thing, we didn't want to speak up and kind of break that fourth wall. And I think ultimately we should have made it clear, like, no, no, no, no. Like, we're building Disney. We're not building virtual influencers. Like, the reason people care about Manila Blonix is not because Carrie was just shilling them, because she was fucking rad and she made you want to be her and you could be her by buying noble Vonics.
- [94:54]
Jackson
I think the other thing too, is that unfortunately, because of the timing, like, people took Michaela at the gimmick.
- [95:03]
Trevor McFedries
Yes.
- [95:04]
Jackson
It was almost like it can never go farther than this because of how new it was. That was one of the first things you ever said to me is like, I'm building Marvel for pop stars.
- [95:12]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah.
- [95:13]
Jackson
And specifically, like, this thing you've talked about plenty, which is like, it ultimately came back to the narrative, certainly. I think one challenge of the modern Internet is that there's very little linear. Like, everything's constellation. It's fragmented world building. You're speaking to a moving army, like, and you're moving while they're army's moving. I don't know if you ever read. One of the things that came up when I was talking to Gabe was This piece Brad T.R. wrote called Athletic Aesthetics.
- [95:38]
Trevor McFedries
No, but I love Brad.
- [95:39]
Jackson
It's like, he. It's worth reading. I'll send it to you after. And he sort of describes where we're going with this, which is just like, it's not even really about what you're saying or what you're making as a creative or influencer. It's just about, like, having the audience keep up with you.
- [95:50]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah.
- [95:51]
Jackson
And yet I think you were really, really thoughtful about trying to tell, like, true narratives with Michaela. I'm curious what you think great Internet storytelling looks like now.
- [96:01]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. And I think it's con. There's some contextual things there because it's. It's easy for me to forget even. But I started making Michaela in April of 2016, and there were still chronological feeds were like, pre Trump. Right. And so there was a lot of adoration for tech. And when Michaela first started getting traction, you know, like days, all these outlets were like, look how fucking cool and interesting and smart Trevor is, like, visionary guy. Wow. Wow. And then I think the Trump moment, you know, really kind of inverted the politics of celebrating technology. But also the changing from this. These chronological feeds to algorithmic feeds really presented a wrinkle for us as storytellers. Because the thing I always try to elicit with people who are hiring is like, this is panel by panel storytelling. It's the same as comic books.
- [96:45]
Jackson
People are keeping up with us.
- [96:46]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, yeah. It's the same as a comic book you're reading panel by panel by panel. How can we. How can we start to create a behavior where people learn to start from the beginning? You know, can we do some of these things that when you. When you go by the Sopranos, you don't just, like, start the last season, like, kick it off at the beginning, and by the time we are starting to kind of, like, get some of those things worked out, like, surprise.
- [97:05]
Jackson
No way.
- [97:05]
Trevor McFedries
Oh, wow. Okay. So the challenge shifted, of course, to, like, how can we participate in this more dynamic social media that I think brought stars like Cardi B to life? You know, she's so good at a clapback. She's like the opposite of Carrie Grant to me, where he just, like, this, stands up and performs the things she was. That was written. Her whole skill is like, you. Cardi B. Was like, you bitch, suck my dick. And you're like, yeah, wow. Like, you can't script that. That's amazing. That's Cardi. And so the challenge began.
- [97:32]
Jackson
She's a highlight reel, almost. Yeah.
- [97:34]
Trevor McFedries
But also, like, how can you be dynamic? How can you, you know, like in a. In borrowing things from Hollywood, from game studios, where they're working on these, like, you know, these. These long time periods and producing a finished product. Product. Can you instead try to develop systems that can be dynamic? You know, weekly bibles, all those kinds of things.
- [97:51]
Jackson
Almost interactive.
- [97:53]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, almost interactive.
- [97:55]
Jackson
Unrelated to that, but related. Ish to Mikayla about sort of like being a person who's a touring musician or a person on the road? You said. One of the things I was trying to do with Lil Mikayla was create a model where people who were disenchanted with being public figures could share their work without having to deal with what it means to be a public figure. It can be miserable. The court of public opinion will try to destroy you as fast as they'll champion you. The idea that you could just create this figure, this avatar for you to share your creative wares through was really intriguing to me. And then there was another tweet I found, I think, on the day Berdain died, where you said, what strikes me most is his passing while on the road working. The loneliness I felt while professionally DJing was such an isolating experience. How do you vent to anyone about a job or a life that is viewed as the dream? You've since been a tourist musician after you wrote that. Granted, with a. With a pal, a buddy. What has your relationship been like to that sort of. Maybe especially with, like, the touring music bookends of so much of your life. Like, are any reflections on that kind of. That idea?
- [98:58]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, I think DJing, you know, it's funny how you stumble into things in life and life is largely a game of luck to me. But I was really lucky in that when I turned 19, I dropped out of University. University. They created this topic called Final Scratch Pro, where you could install Linux and then DJ with MP3s on traditional turntables. And I was like, that's crazy. And then Serato came out and it made it easier to do that and it created this dynamic. Where I was in San Jose, that's a whole other long story about how I ended up there. But I ended up going there because I wanted to be close to Silicon Valley. Like I had read about.
- [99:36]
Jackson
This was for school, for football.
- [99:37]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. So I went to Silicon Valley, hate to play football, and ended up hating it for lots of reasons. And ended up there for lots of reasons I want you to go into. So, yeah, I was very lucky and I think kind of reframe it. It's like, I was very lucky to be in San Jose at the moment that I was, because I was interested in tech, interested in business, and I was reading things and I was really frustrated that I didn't have and I couldn't raise capital to start a business. And I was also reading these books about brand building, and I was like, man, I'm actually pretty good at that. Cause I pirated Photoshop. I pirated Illustrator. I know how to build a website.
- [100:08]
Jackson
I could.
- [100:08]
Trevor McFedries
I could do that part, but I don't have, like, capital to create a product. And then Serato came out and I was like, oh, I can like download MP3s for free and make myself the product and brand myself. I created a MySpace and this blog, and I did all these things. And I think I was also very lucky in that I'm very good at being isolated. I can sit in front of a computer for 10 hours a day and get lost in it, and I'm very comfortable with that. And DJing, as I became quite popular, was a lot of of that. It was just, you know, me driving myself to the airport, me parking a car, like, walking to the airport by myself, sitting on a plane for six hours, you know, saying hi to promoter, going back to my room, preparing a set, playing this show where you have this really bizarre barbell almost.
- [100:52]
Jackson
It's like complete isolation, and then, like, in a mob.
- [100:54]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. But the bizarre thing I think I. I wasn't able to maybe elicit with that. That Bourdain tweet is the really difficult part is you're getting all this attention, but it's almost like empty calories, you know, like, you're the center of attention, and everyone's looking at you. They're kind of looking through you.
- [101:09]
Jackson
It's like, hey, monkey dance.
- [101:11]
Trevor McFedries
Kind of. Yeah, like. Like, you know, there are millions of times I'd be teaching someone, like, hey, do you know where the bathroom is? It's like a nice reminder. Like, yeah, I work here. Like, I'm an employee. You know, you can think yourself as a talent, but you're like, oh, it is that way.
- [101:23]
Jackson
Sorry.
- [101:23]
Trevor McFedries
You know, not.
- [101:24]
Jackson
I'm a big fan. Where's the bathroom?
- [101:26]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. And like, very bizarre things where, like, know not. And this is maybe too crass, pod. But, like, you'd be DJing, and there'd be, like, some rich guy in a booth, and he'd be like, hey, man. You'd be like, hi. Hi. He's just like, I don't know what you're doing later, but I've always wanted to see my wife. A black guy. And you'd be like, what?
- [101:42]
Jackson
Like.
- [101:43]
Trevor McFedries
And I think he understands you're contained here.
- [101:45]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [101:46]
Trevor McFedries
You know, like, you effectively, like, are like. You are like the monkey on stage. And so you're like, yeah, all right. Like, sorry, I had a very beautiful. Not interested. Thank you. Like, whatever it is. But it's. It's this very.
- [101:57]
Jackson
They treat you like a person.
- [101:58]
Trevor McFedries
No. Yeah. You're dehumanized, but you're also getting all this attention, and it's very hard to come back to your friends and be
- [102:03]
Jackson
like, I'm living the dream.
- [102:05]
Trevor McFedries
But, yeah, I'm 21 and flying all over the world to play music and making more money than my friends who are doing investment banking. But I'm also deeply unsatisfied in a lot of ways. And so that was like the really tough part with the Bourdain thing is like you could ask people what the dream job is, like travel in the world and eat the best meals and be famous. Yeah. And I think it can be really, really, really tough.
- [102:27]
Jackson
What did you learn about identity through the Michaela process of either like running that account or even just thinking about the different Personas you guys were going to create?
- [102:36]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. And, and I've expressed this a little bit before. Like some of the seedlings of Michaela stem from me being really intrigued with this idea that I could make a song, put it on SoundCloud or YouTube and have someone talk, talk about it. I really feel bad viscerally, you know, and be like, one comment by the way. Yeah, no likes, that snare sucks. You're like, damn, maybe I should change the snare. And you're like, and you know, this, this idea that I had also been able to live as like a little script kitty hacker in these spaces on irc, whatever, as a kid that were like clearly very white. You know, there like weren't a bunch of and like white people saying incredibly racist shit in chats, but I could kind of live inside of them and kind of embody this thing that was different. And there was this idea like, wow, wouldn't it be. And it probably isn't like a novel, but this, Wouldn't it be interesting if people could effectively like embody another person physically on the Internet and feel what it means to have someone be like, you know, you're ugly.
- [103:37]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [103:38]
Trevor McFedries
And what was bizarre is that like, working model was very real, you know, like, I've never been a woman on the Internet and never in my life have I ever thought I should change my life. My eyebrows, you know, but people would be like, look at her ugly eyebrows. And I'd be like, damn, should we change the eyebrows? And I'd be like, whoa, it must be crazy to be a woman on the Internet. Because I've just, you know, people will say a lot of things about this, this podcast, but I doubt they'll critique my eyebrows. And so there, there was a lot about identity. And I think one of the things we tried to explore was this idea of like post physicality and, and us being these post physical creatures. And like some of the best moments were when we would get messages from young people who'd be like, I'm 13 and non binary and live in like Missouri and no one believes that I'm real. And like, you're not real, but you're doing amazing things, and that inspires me. I'd be like, wow, that is so cool. And that stuff is like, you know, when I look back on it, making employees rich and making people who are fans of Mikayla feel seen and heard the way X Men was. For me, like, that was always the dream is like, I was this weirdo. And I remember being a kid being like, when I get my mutant powers, like, they're all going to pay. But, like, that, that, that. That to me was like, easily the best part of that stuff.
- [104:57]
Jackson
That's awesome.
- [104:58]
Trevor McFedries
I mean, with Michaela, it was, like, gnarly. Like, walking first through the door, catch all the arrows. I remember reading that being, like, so fucking true. Like, wow.
- [105:06]
Jackson
I think you've done it plenty of that, too, in your life.
- [105:08]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. And I think it's. It's. I think, like, yeah. I think, again, having a child has kind of reframed a lot of this stuff where it's like, it was just kind of me against the world. And again, we haven't talked much about my personal life, but, like, it's always kind of been me against the world, and that's been very liberating for me. You know, there wasn't a lot of collateral damage for me to, like, you know, I had my mom, so you can take risks. Yeah, but we were already at zero. You know, there was nowhere else to go. And so it was like, either mom was a retirement plant or she doesn't. And so, like, let's take a big swing. And if I fail miserably, I was already supposed to be here.
- [105:42]
Jackson
A little bit about music. There's an article on soft, the South Florida trance team.
- [105:47]
Trevor McFedries
That's right.
- [105:48]
Jackson
We want to not think too much with our brains and just feel the music with our bodies. You're a brilliant dude who is. I think people can tell, can, like, brain blast with the best of them. And yet, as I think both conceptually but also maybe even, like, physically, you've always done a really good job of, like, both high and low. And I think that's, like, part of what's in that quote a little bit. But I'm curious how music has helped you with your ability to move between spaces and be in high, low. And.
- [106:18]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, and I quote, interesting because we're. We're a bit trolly, but, like, there's this tension that's a product of being born. When I was born, I didn't. I never had anything, but I was very, very lucky that it was very chic to have nothing like The Blur song. Common people, you know, could blare through like a nightclub when I was 20 and it was very real. Like a lot of the rich kids wanted to be common people and go to the shithole die bars and hang out where me and my actually like poor friends were like playing records. And it was comforting in that I could just thrift clothes and still participate in, you know, high status Los Angeles society at least. And in parallel, a bit heartbreaking. Like there were definitely, you know, one of my, one of my best friends when I moved here was a guy named Adam Moonves. His dad is Les Moonves, former like CEO, president of Viacom. And you know, we had tons of amazing interactions just from being in proximity to him. I remember because his dad had a Via Viacom was hanging out one day and like, dad, you should give Trevor a radio station. Like he's good at music. And like we were young and I was like, honestly, I would crush a radio station. Like, no idea how to sell ads or whatever it is. But like just being in proximity, people that could think that big was, was really comforting. But I also think that the ability to develop a palette, the ability to understand how some of these modes of thinking, thinking are our superpowers and the desire to pass them down was really interesting. And so, yeah, I guess, like, it's kind of the same answer I've always had, but like music and being good at music and I guess I'm realizing now also provided me a lot of power because of exclusivity. Like because I was the DJ at hot nightclubs, I would regularly have people walk up to the booth because I worked there and be like, this is my business card. I'm a producer at Warner. Like, I'd love to come back here sometime if you ever need anything. I'd be like, dang, that's like a power broker, you know? And he'd be like, by the way, actually we need a DJ for a movie that we're in. Could definitely get you paid. Well. And I'm like, bet I will text you and you will get back into the nightclub next week.
- [108:37]
Jackson
Yes.
- [108:38]
Trevor McFedries
And if you watch the Haunting of Molly Hartley, some like weird horror movie, there's a party scene that I got paid like $5,000 to DJ in for one night when $5,000 was like an insane amount of money.
- [108:50]
Jackson
Wow.
- [108:51]
Trevor McFedries
You know, and, and so I think for me, what music was able to provide was like a path for a low status person to, to create something or create something of value or something that was scarce that People of high status wanted and the ability to transact. That would be like a really, like, really kind of, like, crass way to view it. But I think that was increasingly important. I also said, like, getting a job at Spotify early, like being able to get people in North America, Spotify, I was really cool.
- [109:17]
Jackson
Yep, yep.
- [109:18]
Trevor McFedries
You know, like Lewis Hamilton or whomever, like, wanted Spotify is like, bet, bro. I got you. Thanks, man. If you ever need anything, it's like, honestly, like, I might. I think that's probably a pro tip for anyone out there that's looking to, you know, do things. It's like, figure out places where you can create leverage and provide access to people that are of high status or high power. And you can call in favors when the time is right and skip steps.
- [109:41]
Jackson
This is, I'm sure, a can of worm, so we don't have to spend a lot of time on it. But I. I found myself sort of of wondering. I don't know. I worked at UMG 10 years ago, longer, like, if this sort of like music just sort of feels like it's, at least with the Internet, structurally wants to be free more than maybe any other medium. And so I guess if that's true, is there a business model for music? Like, does. Is it just real world scarcity? Is it patronage? Like, do you. One, I guess. Do you agree with that at all? And like, two, if so, does it tie into some of this other speculation stuff you're thinking about? Do you have any idea?
- [110:12]
Trevor McFedries
Definitely. I think it's interesting. Like music, maybe. Anything else? I think I always wonder if that was like a function of file size, because it seems like to me it's always.
- [110:21]
Jackson
It's less about. File size is obviously a huge part of it, but it's more that, like, you, you hear a song once, you're not like, I'm good.
- [110:29]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah.
- [110:30]
Jackson
You're like, I want to hear it more. Like, you actually need. Before you like it, you need to hear it five times.
- [110:33]
Trevor McFedries
Good point.
- [110:34]
Jackson
When you watch a movie, you're like, I saw it.
- [110:36]
Trevor McFedries
I'm good.
- [110:37]
Jackson
So it has a little bit more like, oh, you should have to pay $20 to see at once.
- [110:40]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, music.
- [110:42]
Jackson
Listening to a song is a way to build fandom with the artist.
- [110:44]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. You know, obviously I wrestled with this for a long time. I would say immediately, it's not clear to me as a business model that that makes sense for selling music. I think one thing that's been great for soft is we've built a fan base that deeply cares about music. And they buy our stuff on Bandcamp, and it's far more than ever could have imagined through Bandcamp. Again. It's not. I can't live in this home on Bandcamp, but. But I don't know. I don't have a good answer for that. I think what is starting to emerge is that if you can build universes, there's lots of opportunity to sell things.
- [111:19]
Jackson
Yes.
- [111:19]
Trevor McFedries
And I think the brightest of the bunch understand that whether they're capable of doing it is a whole nother task, because it's taxing. It's not what you love. It can be really hard. And so what I think was most impressive about Charlie in that brat moment. She's so smart. She's so, so, so smart. Has always been so smart, and I think recognized the game on the field and was able to commit and do the thing. And, you know, we're not. I see her. It's daps and highs. We're not close. But when I see her do, like, you know, big television adverse or converse things, I'm like, get it? You know what I mean? Like, you probably had to sacrifice a lot of emotional discomfort to commit to this bit and this story and this world that you were building when you're just a really gifted songwriter. Yeah. You know.
- [112:07]
Jackson
Yeah. This is. I mean, in a. In a much smaller level, this is even just the artists who love to make music and don't want to tour.
- [112:12]
Trevor McFedries
Totally. Yeah. And. And I. I think I've always tried to be a realist about this and. And told a story to musicians about when I was 16, playing in a hardcore band, and there were two drummers and one had a car, and we were like, he's the worst drummer, but he's got a car. You know, like, we can go play shows other places. Places. So he's the drummer.
- [112:31]
Jackson
It's a lot of life that's like that.
- [112:33]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. And so in some respects, it's like, yeah, if you want to play shows, you gotta have a car. If you want to be a famous musician, you gotta make the tick tocks of nuggies.
- [112:45]
Jackson
I got a handful of miscellaneous things before we wrap up.
- [112:48]
Trevor McFedries
Okay.
- [112:48]
Jackson
First, from our friend Alex Ang. He asked. I asked him when I should talk to you about it. His question was, is there any point where culture actually prices into tech and in business, like, in this real way, beyond just narrative and marketing, like, is it actually become a core business driver? Maybe it's some of the stuff you're
- [113:05]
Trevor McFedries
thinking about, but it's a. It's A tough one for me. I think the immediate answer for me is like, I don't know, you know, But I understand that I probably think about culture in different terms. And so my friend Julie Young, who's brilliant.
- [113:23]
Jackson
Cheers.
- [113:25]
Trevor McFedries
I think understands culture more than almost anyone. I don't think she would ever describe herself as someone, but is so adept at identifying things that matter. Like, OMG LOL dolls. You know, and like, those blind boxes. Like, you know, like, she was so good at identifying that. And so I think in that Silicon Valley will be able to weaponize the young girl to shape, like, meaningfully meaningful societal change in the way that Hol. Hollywood's been able to. I think there's a path there.
- [113:57]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [113:58]
Trevor McFedries
It's still not clear to me that Hollywood has been able to make or been able to actually shift from the kind of, like, early adopter crossing the chasm model of technology and, like, software adoption. I do see really intelligent investors thinking about that and trying to go downstream and shape the hearts and minds of really, you know, young people, young women. And then having that work upstream. For now, I still see, like, go identify early adopters and then, you know, work upstream. And so I'm not a buyer holistically of that just yet, but I imagine I have blind spots because I am somewhat of a hater as well and probably refuse to see some of these things people are acknowledging.
- [114:39]
Jackson
I promise this is not a gotcha. You once described your involvement with him as Kanye collected me for, like, three months. And then you also said, he's the greatest of my time. He's a genius. I will ride with. Yay. Forever.
- [114:53]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, I mean, it's tough, but, yeah, what?
- [114:56]
Jackson
Maybe especially up close, since you got to experience it, like, what was so magical? What is so magical about that guy?
- [115:06]
Trevor McFedries
I think what was. I'll say it was magical for me. And what is so magical about him? Maybe more broadly, but. And it'll be a little bit of story time. Um, I got a text message from a big venture capitalist that said, like, hey, Kanye's doing some investing. Told him about you. He really wants to meet you. It's okay if I give him your phone number? And I'm driving to the Beverly Hills Hotel, the counter downstairs. Honestly, the spot to try to, like, win back my ex girlfriend at the time, who was kind of with me through the startup thing, and you can understand how partners dealing with running startups can be miserable. Was like, I'm not into it. I don't want to date this version of who you are. And I'M like, yeah, cool. I go to breakfast and by this, you know, blessings of the Lord above, I'm like, hey, this is insane. I'm sorry, but Kanye's texting me and he says he wants to meet right now. Like, would you be down to hang with Kanye? And I guess for added color, it was right after like the MAGA moment. So there was the kind of first, first break of like, Kanye. She was like, yeah, oh, of course. And so I'm texting Kanye. He's like, I want to meet right now. Like, are you in la? He's like, yeah, I'm in Calabasas. Where are you? I'm like, I'm at the Beverly Hills Hotel. He's like, cool, I'll be there in 30. And I came to you. Yeah. And I was like, oh. And we're sitting, we finish our meal, I get a text, I'm out front, silver Tesla. I'm like, cool. I told him I'm with, you know, my ex girlfriend, friend. It's like, great. We climb into the back seat of the Tesla and kind of dap him over the top. There's a friend in the front seat. And what we've started to reveal is that like, what I love about Ye is that he's like a 13 year old boy who's so curious and so excited, and he was so excited to meet me. It was bizarre, you know, where he's like, hey, like, you know, I'm just excited to hang out with you, you know, like, we can do whatever you want. We want. Can go to Venice. I think he thought, like, tech people like Venice, you know, And I was like, I was like, oh, I don't, I don't need to go to Venice. He's like, oh, we can do whatever. Like, like, yeah, we can go, we can go wherever. He's like, maybe we just go for a drive and we start driving and we get on the 405. And he's like, if you want, we can go to like, Calabasas, you know. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. You know, and we're just talking and my girlfriend at the time in urban planning and an architect, and he's like, you're an architect? I love architects. They started talking about that stuff and we're both geeking out. He's like, we should get you to work on some stuff. And I'm telling him about Brad and he's like, kim just invested in some nuclear stuff. I want to be investing. And it was infectious. You know, we went to the studio and he played me a bunch of the record with him and Cudi and we talked about it. And, you know, his homies were there challenging him about the maga hat while he was there. Like, very transparent. But, you know, we. We went to sit down and I had been wearing these vivo barefoot shoes that I was obsessed with, still very into. And he was like, what are those? And I was like, these barefoot shoes, I really with them. And he effectively went on this, like, anti nostalgia rant, which is one of my rants.
- [118:27]
Jackson
Yes.
- [118:27]
Trevor McFedries
You know, and I have my ex who's seen me give that rant a million times.
- [118:31]
Jackson
I love you.
- [118:32]
Trevor McFedries
On some new shit. Like, I get so tired of seeing these fucking same old, like, clones of forces or whatever. Da, da, da, da. And she just looks at me and
- [118:39]
Jackson
she's like, you guys deserve each other.
- [118:42]
Trevor McFedries
You guys deserve each other, you know, And I think what I, you know, was so special about ye was that boy, like, energy. And I watched him meet Tyler, the creator and, like, tremble, you know, in this moment. Tyler's not Tyler who's won Grammys. Tyler is like this kid with a kind of cool thing, and he's, like, shaking, you know, asking him questions, like, really in awe. And it's like, you're the guy. You are Kanye. And this is just Tyler. But, like, and he approaches so many people, people that way. And he's so curious, so funny, so, so, so funny. And, you know, at the time, he had bought all this property in Calabasas and want to build a new Rome. And, you know, was like, you can be the tech guys, I'm the clothing guy, I'm the tech guy. And we flew to Italy to meet up with Vanessa Beroft. And like, you know, I'm like an insane Kanye fan. And we're. We're at the, you know, the. The kind of private terminal at LAX and like, getting carted onto the. The plane, you know, and like, we're flying whatever it is 10 hours next to each other, and he's showing me stuff and we're talking. I'm giving him ideas. And I. And the thing I remember most about Kanye was like, I've always had ideas that are just crazy. Like, you can't. You can't say them out loud.
- [119:57]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [119:58]
Trevor McFedries
You know, because they're not feasible. And with Kanye was this constant process of, like, having an idea, and then, like, that's not something like, Kanye would want to hear that. And I remember we were sitting at Axel Vervoort's castle in Belgium with Vanessa Beecroft and Tremaine and a bunch of other people that he wanted to be a part of this new rung and build this world. And they're going through the designs of what the property could be like and talking about it. And it's up against the mountain, and there's, like, an entrance, an airstrip there, and they're showing me that, and it's up against the mountain. And I remember, like, the X Men in the cartoon, you know, they would take off, a mountain would, like, open up, and the Blackbird would, like, come out or whatever it was. And I was like, that'd be sick if the plane came out of the mountain. And I was like, I can't say that. And I was like, kanye would want to hear that. And I was like, damn Kanye. What if, like, the airstrip came out of the mountain? And he was like, we gotta do the.
- [120:57]
Jackson
Of the mountain.
- [120:58]
Trevor McFedries
And, like, the architect is just, like, looking at me, and it's like, we're not going to get the rights to, like, have the plane come out of the mountain. And he's like, I'll call Donnie, you know, like, I'll call Donald. I'll call Donnie. Like, we'll figure it out. The plane's coming out of the mountain. And I was like, honestly, Rocks, Like. Like, it's just cool to be around someone who's, like, so unafraid to be unabashedly nuts and, like, safe things and get, you know, an eighth of the way there. And so there was obviously a ton of other madness. And, you know, while we're sharing all the alpha with dialectic and. Because it's, like, less precious now, you know, there was a moment where he wanted to, like, buy bread and have me run easy. And then. And, like, you know, imagine going to Qu Capitol and be like, so here's the thing. How do you feel about Kanye west to exit? Like, what is the company? I'm like, it's an LLC. He owns 100%. Yeah. So it was. It was amazing, you know, and then. And, like. Like, it was all incredible. Like, Kim was brilliant and so sweet and, like, so good with him. And that part was, like, tough for me because, like, we're not homies. Like, you know, I was part of life for a moment, and Oxygen didn't go through, and we stopped talking. And four phone numbers later, like, you know, we didn't talk, but, like, you know, it was. It was really incredible to watch Kim with him and the kids, and I think all of it was, like, inspirational in a lot of Interesting ways, because I think he's, you know, I can be quite complicated and he's complicated in a more extreme way, but in similar ways. Yeah. And it was. It was interesting to see what. What worked for what he had built around himself and what didn't.
- [122:41]
Jackson
What an amazing thing to be someone who inspires other people to say they're crazy ideas.
- [122:46]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. Like a blessing. It really was super, super special.
- [122:52]
Jackson
Do you. If you could say anything to him, do you have. Maybe you don't need to say it on. On the podcast, but I'm curious what. Or even just like having watched the last few years, like, do you have any sense of what happened?
- [123:09]
Trevor McFedries
To me, it's a lot of the things are. Kanye is so good at intuiting what matters and where there is strife or where there are problems or where there are things to be addressed. He's not very articulate verbally. And I, I think people struggle with that because you got to like, kind of like rant for 30 minutes and when you dig through it, you're like, whoa. Actually, that was. That was really brilliant. But it's tough to put parse and in parallel. That boyish, like, wonder is a surface area for attack.
- [123:46]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [123:47]
Trevor McFedries
And I think there are people around him with good intentions. I think Rick Rubin was probably someone who in a very unpopular time had more libertarian beliefs in the music business. And I think when people see, like, Rick and Tyler Cowan do a podcast something, they're like, that's crazy. And I'm like, I don't think it's that crazy. If, you know, if you've been to Malibu, there are a lot of people who are kind of like hippies who, who lean more libertarian. They do, like, classic, like, you know, sort of like lib or something. And I think my read was that someone like Rick was able to show him a lot of ideas that were really important to kind of Kanye to Ye. And, you know, Ye's boyish, like, wonder and curiosity was met with people that were able to exploit it for other means. And it's a trade off. Right. Because it's what makes him so special is this kind of like this ability to absorb and be deeply curious and to take things at face value and be kind of childlike. But I think it also has cost him a lot of pain. And that's, like, hard to watch.
- [125:01]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [125:02]
Trevor McFedries
It's tough because some part of me doesn't want to say that because it kind of gives. It makes me a Kanye apologist and he's an adult. But I also Spending time with him are aware of how impressionable. How impressionable he is. And that's kind of tough to watch. And that's like a guy that's, like, a really hard thing to rock for people. Someone that could be so influential, so. So powerful, so wealthy, so, you know, someone with so much of a bravado. Confidence can also be someone who will take something at face value from someone, you know, as. As someone who's like, Tyler, the creator at the moment was, like, so much smaller than he was. Right. But he recognizes the kind of, you know, the aura has kind of been perverted by the aura of someone. Like, he can kind of see you for who you can be and what you are and what your brain of the world, not what you are. And I think that's. That combined with the boyishness capabilities can be a dangerous combo.
- [126:02]
Jackson
Yeah. It's interesting the. When you first started talking about it, some of the. Obviously, a lot is clearly different, but the other person who obviously Kanye knew, who has a boyishness, that can be really frustrating to me, but also manifests so amazingly as Elon. It's interesting that there's some. Yeah, good point.
- [126:19]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah.
- [126:20]
Jackson
I think a pair of separate ideas from you. One, you say a whole generation has come of age not knowing. Real criticism. I think that was a random tweet. And then computers are creation machines. IPads are consumption machines. When you think about the next generation, are you worried? Are you hopeful? Are you. What are you most concerned about?
- [126:38]
Trevor McFedries
I am, like, long humanity. And so I think we'll figure it out and we'll be fine. It's funny, I like, randomly delete so many tweets. I'm like, dang, you found a lot of these ones.
- [126:45]
Jackson
There were a lot that were deleted. These.
- [126:47]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. I'm like, respect. Yeah.
- [126:50]
Jackson
I'm not holding you to it either.
- [126:51]
Trevor McFedries
No, no. I lifted the consumption one from some book I was reading, and I think more or less said that. I really do believe that, like, I would love for my child to spend time at a computer, hacking at stuff, trying to make things, versus, like, passively engage consuming something. I'm really not that worried. If anything, I'm, like, very inspired. Yeah. I think the kind of, like, making sense of Gen Z has been beaten into the ground. Gen Alpha. There's. There's an artist named two Hollis.
- [127:22]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [127:22]
Trevor McFedries
And his mother, Catherine is someone I've known for a very long time. And her other son is in a hardcore band called Start Today that I love. And when I look at Thalis and I see what he's built. It's incredible. And I look at his Instagram and he's posting on main pictures of him looking incredible with a song by seven Angels, Seven Plagues, which is just like deep cut hardcore band from Milwaukee I believe that I was into when I was, you know, 15. I'm like, man, there are still people that are deeply curious and it is being rewarded. And I think that's fantastic. Both of them, by the way, both of them are kids. Start today and Tuhalis check them out.
- [128:05]
Jackson
I know of Tuhalas from Drew, but I. It's crazy when you. When both your kids are. Are that there's something Mom's pretty cool.
- [128:12]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah.
- [128:13]
Jackson
Maybe I guess on a slightly related note but like on the optimism. There's something happening around the populist stuff obviously Zoron lately. Like you're this weird sort of anomaly for so many reasons, including like sort of techno capitalist, sort of anarchists. I know you were a big Bernie guy. Like, any views on like what's happening and where that's going?
- [128:37]
Trevor McFedries
I mean, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills sometime. No, because it just feels like it's a, it's a. It's a status quo. Like people who are comfortable with status quo, people that aren't. You know, I think people can. Can cut that a million different ways. But to me, like, the Mandani thing is not that dissimilar from, you know, any populist thing. It's like anyone like, you know, watching Margin Taylor Greene say things she's saying in the last two weeks, you're like. And people resonate. It's like, yeah, people are frustrated. And I think that's the hard part with me. Kind of like mainstream DNC politics is like, people are very comfortable and they've had very good outcomes from the way things are, but most people aren't.
- [129:19]
Jackson
Yeah.
- [129:19]
Trevor McFedries
And. And I, I really struggle with that. I. Yeah. And that's a whole other rant about growing up in Iowa. What most of my peers are doing, have multiple friends, parents kill themselves post nafta. You know, we had Oscar Meyer plant, Alcoa plant, a John Deere plant, and when those plants left or some of them did, rather like the hurt was so palpable. People who were making 100 grand a year, 70 grand a year, and could provide for their children in unimaginable ways, all of a sudden couldn't get a job at 7:11. And I remember that feeling. And actually, you know, funny enough, like the first time I used Claude 3.5. I felt like that feeling where I was, where I was like, oh, my God, this is going to displace a lot of people who move symbols on screen. And what white collar, you know, NAFTA could look like to me is still really scary. And hopefully people smarter than I are trying to figure out how to mitigate some of those pains.
- [130:21]
Jackson
Conversely, you, we talked about this at the beginning, and there's lots of potential blocks, black pills. You continue to lean on optimism. Why?
- [130:32]
Trevor McFedries
I think I'm just a believer in the human condition. Like, maybe it's silly and quaint, but I believe in us and I believe in the goodness of us. And I think to lose that is almost worse than death. Right. You know, and so I would like people, you know, I'm having a child, child and confident, love, like, are you gonna have children? A lot of people. I don't want to bring kids in this world. And I'm like, you have to bring kids into this world. We need people like you, who are good people to create children that have been raised right, that have, like, the right moral compass that are going to go and, like, make this place better. And of course, everyone's got their own beliefs and I don't want to push on anyone, but, like, anyone out there who's morally righteous and a virtuous person, like, crank them out. We need good ones, good little ones fight and the good fight.
- [131:25]
Jackson
There's a really old, I think on like an old blog, like, young sker blog, you say? The only peaceful constraints I've known in this world are music and friendships that allow for freedom.
- [131:38]
Trevor McFedries
Damn.
- [131:40]
Jackson
What did you mean? And any reflections on. Do you even remember what you meant?
- [131:45]
Trevor McFedries
I definitely don't. But I also know it's so funny is like that, that blog, it was like such a great outlet for me for such a long time. But I, I do think,
- [131:56]
Jackson
you know,
- [131:57]
Trevor McFedries
yeah, I, I, I felt so much discomfort in my life. And music is again, this kind of like, divine bridge. You, you can hear something and feel something off and joke at, like, loud music and flashing lights. So simple, so primal.
- [132:10]
Jackson
That's kind of what I was getting at with the high and the low, right?
- [132:12]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah. Yeah. The monkey in me is just like, wow, everything is fine and good friendship. I think because of the circumstances of my upbringing and my kind of kooky family, I have been able to build, you know, different familial units. I'm always reminded around Thanksgiving, like, my friends givings have been the most important Thanksgivings in my life. And I just, I just feel this, this. What a blessing. There's, I think it's like a DJ boring song where he samples Bob Geldoff and Bob Geldoff, you know, a popular figure live a, I believe was the event he did in back in the day, like Help Africa. One of those big, like get all the musicians together to do things. And as I understand the story, his. His wife was an MTV presenter. She interviewed the lead singer of nxs. This, this, this band. Anyway, they fell in love. He was a heroin addiction. Bob had two daughters with this woman. She ends up overdosing, losing her in excess, you know, accidentally hangs himself. And later on in life, Bob's daughter Peaches, who I knew a little bit from just like partying in la, also tragically passes. And he's sampled in the song. Talking about grief. And he's talking about grief and he's about talking, talking about life and he's talking about. You're just being on holiday with his family and like looking out from a dinner table and seeing his like grandkids and his kids dance and like that being all that matters, you know, and it's, it's incredibly poignant. But like, I, for whatever reason that met me at the right time in my life and it was like, that's if it's. That is all that matters. I mean, it's like being a post Hoffman me where like in my startup days, my like, you know, best friend Harley, like, you want to get a coffee at one on a Tuesday? And I was like, no, I have work. But now I'm like, yeah, let's get a coffee. And like, I can get back to this thing later tonight or whatever it is. Like, spending time with loved ones is really important. So make time to do it. And again, so obvious, but took me a while to get there.
- [134:15]
Jackson
You brought it up a few times. You're having a child. How do you hope to be changed?
- [134:21]
Trevor McFedries
Gosh, in so many ways I can't even imagine. Already we were at ultrasound and they were showing, they're like showing parts of my son and they kind of quickly move over his brain. And this thought of like, that's the brain. You have to protect the brain. It was like this primal thing where I was like, I got to protect the brain. I've got to protect that thing's brain. And I, I'm. I'm really excited to be blindsided by those things. You know, there's the obvious stuff, like, you know, I'll never get to experience ice cream again for the first time. But I get to do it with, like. And that's gonna rock. To be like, wow, ice cream. Welcome to fucking ice cream dog. Like, there's so many cool ice creams for you to enjoy. That's gonna be great. Other than that, I'm just kind of excited to be blindsided by the whole thing. I just know I can plan all I want. I just know. I will say, while we're sharing nuggets of wisdom on this thing, I go to this conference that I love, and I always go. It's kind of an unconference. You sit around, talk about cool stuff. But I go to the dad session every year, and let me go for, like, close to a decade now. And one year, a gentleman was talking, and he was like, how many of you think that you're a better parent, a better father than your father was? And a bunch of hands raised. Bunch of hands didn't raise. And they're like, how many of the hands raised have kids that are older than 18? And they all put their hands down and. And they. And they were like, yeah, like, when my kids were 7, 8, 9, 10, I was 100% better father by the time they're, like, 22. I was like, I don't know. No, actually. And what the person who brought this up highlighted, he was like, everyone in this room, you're like world beaters. You're doing incredible things, impossible things. You make the world bend to your will. And he said, the thing I think is important for all of you, the younger parents, is that, like, parenting isn't carpentry, it's gardening. And, like, you may want this thing to be an oak tree, but it's a lemon tree, and you just got to make it the best lemon tree it can be. And I was like, wow, that felt really. So I've just tried to kind of sit with that and be like, you know, it's easy. Of expectations of what my boy can be. And he's in the 95th percentile right now. So I'm like, we got a chance of the league.
- [136:29]
Jackson
You know, do what you couldn't do.
- [136:31]
Trevor McFedries
You do what I couldn't do. But again, if he wants to be, you know, God forbid an artist can do that too.
- [136:42]
Jackson
One last thing. You actually mentioned it. I didn't know it was going to be a layout project, but there's an old email of yours that I followed the link on, and there's a domain called, actually, cerulean.com. the language on the. On the website is just this. Okay, I See, you think this has nothing to do with you. You go to your closet and you select, I don't know, that lumpy blue sweater, for instance, because you're trying to tell the world that you take yourself too seriously to care about what you put on your back. But what you don't know is that that sweater is not just blue. It's not turquoise, it's not lapis. It's actually cerulean. Some people obviously know the reference, but what does that mean to you?
- [137:24]
Trevor McFedries
It's a quote from the Devil Wears Prada, which is, you know, one of my favorite films. But to me, I think it. It, like, reflects the sentiment. I've probably brought up far too much in this podcast that there are people that introduce important ideas into the world and they can be discounted and they can be made to feel small or unimportant. And I would much prefer a world that's celebrated cerulean because it's not just blue, it's actually cerulean.
- [137:51]
Jackson
Trevor, thank you.
- [137:52]
Trevor McFedries
Thank you very much, Jackson.
- [137:53]
Jackson
This is great.
- [137:54]
Trevor McFedries
Yeah, pleasure.
- [137:55]
Jackson
Thanks for listening. I'd like to thank Notion again for presenting Dialectic and for being such an amazing partner as I explore and interrogate the wonderful, craftful, soulful people that I get to talk to here on the show. One thing that was exciting this past week, and I'll share the link on Instagram. I did a little feature with Notion where they asked me a handful of questions about how I'm thinking about 2026, what my goals are, what my process is, advice I have for creative people. I'll give you a hint. It's as it took me too long to figure out. Listen to yourself and then just start. And even how I'm using Notion as I create dialectic. I'll link that in the description. Thanks again to Notion and thank you. I will see you next time.