← Fame Under Fire
Fame Under Fire
Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni head to court.
00:32:38
Can Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni avoid going to trial?
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- [00:00]
Sean Kent
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:07]
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- [00:37]
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- [01:14]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Hello and welcome back to Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds with me, Anoushka Mutandadawati. Now, two very famous celebrities clad in matching tones of olive green entered the Daniel Maho Nihan courtroom in Southern District of New York. Now, if that name sounds really familiar, that is where the Diddy trial was. What followed was hours and hours of Blake Lively's and Justin Baldoni's camp desperately seeking a settlement. What on earth is going on? But before we jump in, just a warning. This episode does contain some strong language to help me unpack all of this is our resident trial attorney, Sean Kent. He's back. Hi, Sean.
- [01:48]
Sean Kent
Hey, Aniska. How are you doing?
- [01:49]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
I'm good. I forgive you for not being here last week. You did have a quadruple murder trial to were you presenting in court? Was it pretrial court hearings?
- [01:56]
Sean Kent
They were pretrial motions. You're exactly right. So pre trial motions, getting ready for our trial starting next week.
- [02:02]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
And that took up a lot of your time. But the rest of Sean's time, give or take, has been planning his. His grand arrival in the UK in July. He's coming.
- [02:10]
Sean Kent
I'm coming. I'm coming home. I'm coming home. I am so excited.
- [02:15]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
He's going to be at the Crosswired Podcast festival. We're going to do a live recording. I'm a bit nervous about putting this man live on the air and so are the producers in the whole of the BBC. But he's gonna be here wandering around, learning more about this country than just Paddington and Benny Hill, which seem to be his only reference points.
- [02:34]
Sean Kent
And marmalade, and I think Marmalade came from Paddington, so that's everything. And mind the gap. Those are the things that I know.
- [02:39]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Yeah, we've got great cultural exports. We really are a powerhouse on the global stage. But today, Sean, this really is one of your expertise. We're talking about court mandated mediation. Sounds like legalese there, but we had Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni together inside District of New York courthouse trying to figure this out. Reminder. Blake Lively is suing Justin Baldoni, Jamie Heath, Wayfarer Studio, and others for, amongst other things, sexual harassment, defamation, retaliation, smearing her in a smear campaign. That's what she alleges. Now, Justin Baldoni and the rest of the defendants have denied this over and over again. But, Sean, this mediation, does this mean that both sides are putting their hands up, waving the white flag and are ready to settle?
- [03:21]
Sean Kent
Absolutely not. And that is a common misnomer. A lot of times in a lot of districts in the United States, one of the things that is required before you're allowed to go to trial is mandatory court mediation. It is called adr Alternative Dispute Resolution because it's an alternative to go to court. As folks over there have said that Americans are quite litigious, and we find ourselves in the court system so much. So what our courts did is, before you go to court, before we block the trial docket, before we make it impossible to get in and out of court, why don't y' all try to work this out with a third party and see if you can come to a resolution.
- [04:02]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Wait a minute now. This has been going on for four ages. Their docket is massive. Is this not a bit late in the game?
- [04:08]
Sean Kent
Yes and no. Sometimes. And that's a great question, Anush. What ends up happening is. It just depends. You see what I did there?
- [04:14]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
He called me Anush.
- [04:18]
Sean Kent
Sometimes we've had mediations before we even file a lawsuit, before we even serve it. We've had that in some cases that we've handled that the parties get together and they say, look, the court's gonna order it anyway. I'm about to file a lawsuit against you. Before we do a lawsuit, let's sit in a room and see if we can work this out. So that is pre suit mitigation. And then also what ends up happening is trial could be coming up in a couple of weeks or a couple of months, and the court Will flat out call the parties and say, have y' all engaged in adr? Alternative dispute resolution? Have you engaged in mediation? And if the parties say no, then they say, look, before this case gets on my docket, before we pick them 12 folks, I need to hear you guys gave a good faith effort to try to mediate the case.
- [05:05]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
And what about in this case where we've got Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively engaged in this over a year long bitter court battle. But she says she alleges she was the victim of sexual harassment. He alleges that she's accusing him of something so heinous to ruin his reputation. Are you going to make them sit in the same room for hours on end to sort this out?
- [05:23]
Sean Kent
I'll say. It's actually kind of rare to have a mediation take place inside of a courtroom. It usually doesn't happen that way. You pick a location. Sometimes we'll go to the opposing party's law firm, sometimes they'll come to our law firm, or sometimes they go to a third party's law firm. What ends up happening usually is we'll have what are called just like a trial. You'll have open end statements, no jury or anything of that nature. But Justin's attorney and Justin will be in the room. Blake and Blake's attorney will be in the room. And then the mediator. The mediator is usually a court certified officer. Could be a lawyer, could be somebody from that district who is a mediator. And then the parties talk. They just say what they want to say in their opening statements. Blake, you did this. Justin, you did this. After they get done with their opening statements, if they're even required, they sign a document. The document says, this is confidential. Anything we say, anything we do, anything we try to do in this room, shall not foreshadowing, shall not be able to be used in a courtroom down the road. You cannot say stuff inside of this courtroom. This is all confidential. The reason you want it confidential is so if the parties try to settle, well, then they, after they sign it, they go to separate rooms and they probably don't see each other the rest of the day. And the mediator goes from room to room to room. And it sounds, for all this fancy legal jargon, what ends up happening is the mediator will go to Blake's room first and say, blake, what do you think this case is worth and why? Tell me the strengths of your case. Tell me the good parts of your case. Tell me the things about your case. And she says, I have been horribly this this, this, this, this, this, and this. My first demand to them is $20 million. Then they go to Justin's room. Justin, they've offered, asked for $20 million. I'm not given 20 million. And I'm just throwing names out. I'm not giving $20 million. I'll give them a million dollars. Why do you think the case is only worth a million? Well, because the law says this. The law says this, the law says this. And then the mediator goes back to the other room. Well, they've counted your million with 20 million. And then they say, well, we'll come down to 18 million. And this goes on for hours, if not days. And that's mediation.
- [07:30]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Jesus. They've got their work cut out for them. The mediators that court appointed.
- [07:34]
Sean Kent
It can be court appointed. It is usually court certified. Where they have to go, they have to take classes. It's usually somebody from the district who knows. The reason we want someone from the district is we want somebody who knows what juries are likely to do. Somebody who knows the law. A lot of times, former judges are the best mediators because they know everything that's going on in the case. And we always say the best mediators are people that both sides respect. And in a quality, good mediation, no one leaves happy. And that means, technically, the mediation work, that somebody paid way more than they wanted to and someone got way less than they wanted to. And that's the process.
- [08:12]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Now, you said that that's very interesting that they can't bring up anything at trial that was said in mediation. But what if. What if something really outlandish is said that contributes to the point they're trying to make? For instance, in this case, this is just completely theoretical. But if Blake Lively says something abhorrent to Justin Baldoni and then he brings. He can't say @tr. Well, not only has she subjected me to this, this, and this in the press, when we got into the mediation room, she called me a prick.
- [08:39]
Sean Kent
If she says something, it is not permissible based upon that agreement, it is not permissible to be used inside of a trial courtroom. And the question always comes up, what would a judge do if somebody gets on the stand and says something completely impermissible in front of that jury, what will end up happening? And then the other thing that could end up happening is you have confidentiality agreements. So you've noticed nobody is giving us any statements as what's happened in this mediation. You haven't heard. Blake said he was this, and these was this, and this was this. You haven't heard any press conferences. And what would also happen is, let's say for argument's sake, they settled it. Let's say they settled it for a confidential amount. And let's say Blake lets that amount slip. Let's say she has a press conference and say, I got paid $10 million and he admitted that he was sorry. That could violate the entire terms of the mediation. And they could say, we want to wipe it out and we want to go to trial because they violated it. Let's go straight to trial. That is their right.
- [09:42]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Now you say it mentioned there about getting up on the stand and saying something in front of the jury. I want everyone to cast their minds back to the Diddy trial because Mark Agnifolo introduced a few times within that trial that the jury should start to question why the federal government were going after Sean Diddy. Com. And the question should lead them to the answer that they were attacking a successful African American man. Now, he put that point forward, but all the judge did was bring the jury back in and say, disregard that. Just, you know, wipe that one out. Men in black, that one. Come on, Sean, they're not robots. Like, if they hear something, they hear it. How does that work?
- [10:18]
Sean Kent
Well, you're exactly right. What's that called is a curative instruction. And the judge has certain things to his disposal. I love where we're going here. The judge has certain things to their disposal. They can say, you know what? I don't think it's that bad. What was just said on the stand is not bad. A curative instruction telling the jury can cure the problem. You know what? This doesn't go to the ultimate issue of innocence or guilt. It's not that big. So I can give a curative instruction, but let's say it's something big. Let's say it's something that's massive. Let's say something that the judge in pretrial says, we are not allowing anything in, that says Diddy admitted it, that Blake admitted it, that Justin admitted it. And then someone on the stand blurts out, well, they admitted it. Well, then the judge could say, you know what? I'm throwing the entire case out.
- [11:06]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Turning up at the court mandated mediation. There was, of course, tons of press there to capture Blake Lively coming in. Justin Baldoni came in. Now, Justin Baldoni came in with his wife. Blake Lively came in alone. And this led to loads of speculation online. Oh, my goodness. Her husband isn't supporting her anymore. Her famous friends have abandoned her. But actually, I'm wondering, is there some legal strategy to her coming in alone without these names of famous people who she's well married to, one best friends with another that we've heard about so much. What do you think, Sean?
- [11:39]
Sean Kent
I think it means absolutely nothing that nobody showed up. As a matter of fact, I guarantee her lawyers told her, don't come. Because mediation, for as fancy as it sounds, is the most boring process on the planet. It is hours of sitting in a room. Sometimes when we engage in mediation, we tell our client, you know what, bring a book, sit there and read. Because remember, as I described to you, we have that third party mediator who's going to one room and then you're just sitting in the room by yourself. There's not law happening in this unique situation. Possibly it shows that she is vulnerable. Don't forget, we've talked about this a lot is power dynamics and who these people are and the fact that, you know, the allegations are that Blake has this concerted effort with her team to create this narrative that is out there in the ionosphere and she's using her powerful friends and her PR team to create this scenario that's not there. And because of the Taylors and the Ryans and they're much more powerful than the Sean's and the Anoushkas. And if they say things, people listen, that the thought process is her. Her PR team, her powerful people are able to use these people behind the scenes to create a narrative that hurts
- [12:45]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Justin and even further than that, to wrestle creative control of the film from him.
- [12:51]
Sean Kent
Absolutely. Absolutely. That part too.
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Anoushka Mutandadawati
But why does that. Why is that relevant for a sexual harassment claim?
- [12:57]
Sean Kent
We're talking about power dynamics. Could she actually be. Please don't come for me. I'm not saying she can't be, but please, could she actually be harassed? Could she actually be in that situation when she has dominion and control over the set, when she is the power broker and she has more power than Justin on this set? Can she be in a situation in which she is in a hostile work environment when she is the power on the set, when she is the most important person and she has the most important people around her, and that's going to be Justin's claim throughout the situation, is there's no harassment. There's nothing of this nature. You are the power. You're creating a scenario that's just not there. Through the use of your family, you're trying to create a narrative that's just not really true.
- [13:42]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Now, obviously, Blake Lively's side are arguing he was her Boss and her co star. So he had complete power over her on that set. But we've spoken about discovery before. Discovery in this case has been extensive. That's where texts, emails, I mean, letters, if you're fond of that, can be subpoenaed and entered into the docket as evidence of certain things that were going on. To contribute to the argument that either side are making, I'm gonna read you some of the messages between Blake Lively and Taylor Swift. I just want you to tell me how damaging you think they are to Blake's narrative that she was in the one down position. Okay?
- [14:17]
Sean Kent
Okay, Got it.
- [14:19]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
All right, so this is from Blake Lively to Taylor Swift, who is her bff. She says, quote, if you get here with this doofus, director of my movie is still here, open brackets. I'll be ushering him out, but hope he's still here, close brackets. Can you do me a huge favor? I need help with him. Can you tell him you're exc. For the movie, that you read the book, but what you're freaking out over is the pages I sent you, what a magnetic scene that is, or whatever descriptives you're comfortable with. I'll send you the scene. You don't have to read it. Of course. It's a quick read. He's a clown and thinks he's a writer now and got this rewrite and told me he appreciates my passion. That's it. Full stop. So having the greatest living storyteller unknowingly echo to him how much you love what we're doing. Open brackets, giving him credit as if you wrote them with me. Close brackets will go such a. A long way. And then later on, Taylor Swift texts back saying, I'll do anything for you, with two exclamation marks. How damaging do you think that is, Sean?
- [15:12]
Sean Kent
I think it hurts tremendously. I mean, it's giving mean girl vibes, and it's going along with what Justin has alleged in his defense is this is a concerted effort. I'm not saying it will work, but I think those texts are very damaging, and here's why. Text messaging are, to me, always damaging. And you and I have talked about this. The hardest thing to overcome is somebody's own words. And these are her own words. And not only are they just her own words, they're even worse because their own words that she didn't think would ever get out to the public. So those are her private sentiments at the time. These are private text messages that, to me, are going to be hard to explain. Because they're your private thoughts to your private bestie. Talking complete trash about Justin and showing the power dynamic and actual control. I think it hurts. And that's what I would be using if I was Justin's lawyer. Like, these text messages show the true Blake Lively.
- [16:07]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
So we have those text messages that allow us to see that Taylor was coming to her apartment and Justin Baldoni was there. And then we have text messages after the fact. Obviously, we weren't in the room with them, but from Blake's words, we can kind of get a picture of what took place. She texts her saying, you were so epically heroic today. I recapped every moment to Ryan. I kept remembering stuff. You making shit up about me and lenses and referring to yourself as my doll, this clown for it all, but also resisting it. You are the world's absolute greatest friend ever. I won the lottery. And then Taylor texts back in cap saying, I won the lottery. You are the coolest person in the world, and you like me. So from that, what could a jury pick out? That Taylor has come to the house, made some stuff up, said that Blake's rewrites were the best, and tried to potentially strong arm Justin Baldoni into going for Blake's version of the script that she wrote. I've had a lot of messages from people saying, you know, any jury that sees this is just gonna think she's a nasty person. That compounds with some of those clips that were flying around that showed her an unflattering light. But a lot of questions from other people saying, so what? So what? She might be a mean girl in those texts, or she's texting with her best friend. She might have had power in that she had a list of friends. But when it comes to some of the things that she alleged happened to her on that set, does that power dynamic actually hold? And I want to bring us back to birthing scene that she speaks about that took place and it ends with us. It says, on the day of shooting the scene. This is in her amended complaint in which Ms. Lively's character gives birth. Mr. Baldoni and Mr. Heath suddenly pressured Ms. Lively to simulate full nudity, despite no mention of nudity for this scene in the script, her contract, or in previous creative discussions. Mr. Baldoni insisted to Ms. Lively that women give birth naked and that his wife had, quote, ripped her clothes off during labor. He claimed it was, quote, not normal for women to remain in their hospital gowns while giving birth. Ms. Lively disagreed, but felt fals into a compromise that she would be naked from Below the chest down. She speaks about having only a small piece of fabric covering her genitalia. She speaks about this scene, which are usually closed sets, being streamed to multiple monitors across the set and the crew, a full crew there, able to watch it within that moment. A lot of people are asking, who cares that Taylor Swift's her friend, that Ryan Reynolds is her husband, that she emails Matt Damon when she's got her legs and stirrups with a piece of fabric over her genitalia.
- [18:28]
Sean Kent
Yes, but don't forget, credibility goes on the stand. And everyone's, you know, when we're talking about potential jurors, jurors weigh an individual's credibility. And as you saw and we saw in real time in the Diddy trial, the allegations were abhorrent. But the second, a juror does not trust a witness and does not trust what they say. So the way they look at it, if a witness is discredited from the first words out of their mouth, the rest of the stuff that comes up, a jury is going to be like, I don't know if I necessarily believe it. And we remember this from watching the Diddy trial. And don't forget, Blake will have to take the stand.
- [19:09]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
She has to.
- [19:10]
Sean Kent
Absolutely.
- [19:11]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Oh, it's not like a criminal trial.
- [19:12]
Sean Kent
Absolutely. This is not a criminal trial. This is her lawsuit. She is bringing it. She will have to testify. Okay, let's make that clear. She's bringing it. And when she gets on the stand, all of that credibility comes on the stand with her. She will have to explain how she felt. She will have to explain. And when we've represented individuals who are actors before, juries always think the same thing. They're acting. When they get emotional on the stand, jurors think this person is a great actor. We do not believe the words they're saying. So that's why those text messages to me are so important. Because guess what? You're not doing those text messages. You're not acting. That is your raw, true self and the jury's balance, those situations. So to me, yes, the things that she is alleging are abhorrent. They could 1000% be true. I'm not saying they're not. But as a person who's tried a lot of cases, those text messages could sully the jury on anything that she says afterwards. Even if it's true, even if it's happened, even if she believed the things that she believed, if the jury doesn't trust her, they're not going to listen.
- [20:12]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
But what about the fact that, you know, anybody on that jury, like you said before, can take a little look into their own personal lives and say, jesus, if the messages I send to my best friend were put out there, it might potentially be a lot worse than this. I mean, she calls him a doofus and an idiot. Is that not something that Blake Lively's camp could get up there and say, go in your own messages and take a little look at what you say?
- [20:37]
Sean Kent
I love that you just said that, because we've done it. But that's going to be incumbent on her legal team to make sure that that jury looks at those text messages as just text messages. And jurors are people. You might have somebody who has gone through some type of hostile work environment, who has never talked about it to a soul. And it doesn't matter what Blake does. I believe her. You know, those are the things about the jury trial. You just don't know the system. And to go back to the Diddy trial, we talked about it. Everybody thought that was a slam dunk.
- [21:07]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Yeah.
- [21:07]
Sean Kent
The jury felt completely different.
- [21:09]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
I mean, Blake Lively's camp have referenced multiple times, not only in her complaint, but elsewhere, that there were other women on the set who have expressed that they saw things that were inappropriate. Or Jenny Slate has referenced that things were said to her by Justin Baldoni that she deemed to be inappropriate. So that testimony could in some way corroborate what Blake is saying. But my question here is Jenny Slate had a different level of power to Blake Lively. So is there a world in which the jury can go, well, yeah, Jenny Slate could be sexually harassed, and she could be in the conditions of a hostile work environment, but you weren't, because the real world dynamics were different.
- [21:45]
Sean Kent
Absolutely. I've seen it happen many a time because they. Jenny didn't have the same power dynamic as Blake. Blake could not have been sexual harassed because she could have stopped it at any point in time, but Jenny could have. These are all things that are Go into what could possibly happen on the trial. And it all goes back to why we're saying mediation sometimes is a good situation because both parties have a lot to lose at this trial. Both do. And so that's a lot of reasons why sometimes we say, maybe y' all should try to mediate this case. Maybe you should try to work this out.
- [22:15]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
But, Sean, they've got a hell of a lot to lose if they settle as well.
- [22:19]
Sean Kent
Absolutely.
- [22:20]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
This has been going on for a long time. I mean, and a lot of people are really concerned about this because on one hand, it's, you know, did Justin Baldoni, was he a victim on this set? Did she wrestle control away from him and then try and destroy his reputation? And on the other hand, it's asking the questions. You know, we're 10 years on from me too. Is this still happening on film sets where women are being sexually harassed? Those are some very serious questions at the heart of this case. And if they settle behind closed doors, I can only imagine what the headlines
- [22:47]
Sean Kent
would be if I were representing them. I would have advised settlement is going to be. You might get a prick in your finger on a settlement and people might be a little upset. When this trial happens and people are watching y' all get on the stand and the negativity comes out and your history comes out and the badness comes out and people start talking to you as negative as humanly possible, that's an arm cut off.
- [23:14]
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- [23:44]
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- [24:15]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
I want to ask you another question about reputation in the public sphere. So one of the things that Blake Lively is alleging happened to her is a smear campaign. Justin Baldoni, Jamie Heathway, Fairer Studios engaged a PR crisis management team to go out there and support smear her reputation. On the other side of that, because of the discovery and what we've seen, we've got a glimpse into some of the messages with Taylor Swift, the best friend. We got a glimpse into some of the emails from Ryan Reynolds, the husband of Blake Lively. And in some of their correspondence you can see things that mirror some of the art they have created. In one message from Taylor Swift, she says, in reference to Justin Baldoni, quote, I think this bitch knows something is coming because he's gotten out his tiny violin. And then in a. Which people were speculating. We have not had a confirmation. We did ask. We haven't received a response. But a song called Cancelled, which people were speculating was about the Blake Lively lawsuit. She says, were you just too smug for your own good or bring a tiny violin to a knife fight? Baby, that all ends tonight. Good things. I like my friends canceled, and then I like them cloaked in Gucci and in scandal. And there's a whole chorus there, which I know, Sean, you probably jam out to on your own.
- [25:23]
Sean Kent
I mean, just every day, just. Just. Just beaten down. Just let the rhythm hit him.
- [25:27]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Yeah.
- [25:27]
Sean Kent
I mean, same guy.
- [25:27]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
But we. We've got that kind of mirroring there of the phrase tiny violin in a. So were already. Were speculating was about this. This lawsuit. And then in one of Ryan Reynolds emails to Colleen Hoover, who was the author of the book It Ends With Us, he says, quote, I heard you guys got a tummy bug and you're stuck in New York. I can't think of anything worse. Although it might be your body ridding itself of any residual Baldoni. I'd rather be puking in a gulag than hijacking performative feminism while practicing personal growth catchphrases in the mirror. And then in Wolverine vs Deadpool, there was a character, one of the variants of Deadpool. Nice, Paul. Which people have speculated was a parody of Justin Baldoni. And he says at one point, quote, I'd be fighting alongside them, but my calling is to someday host a podcast that monetizes the women's movement. So, Sean, I'm assuming this isn't defamation because it's protected. It's in art. It could be satire, et cetera. But isn't there a way that Justin Baldoni's head counsel could stand up in the courtroom and say, you know, you've alleged. Ms. Lively, you've alleged that this man was out to ruin your reputation, but actually, your best friend, your husband, have created caricatures of him and memorialize that in some of the most popular pieces of art. You know, it was a huge movie, and Taylor Swift, as we know, is one of the highest selling songwriters of all time. Is there legs to that argument?
- [26:45]
Sean Kent
Yes, potentially. And what'll end up happening is there's something, I believe that Blake's team are following things called a motion and limine. A motion and limine says, you, Honor, we should not Allow this information to come in in front of the jury. One, it has nothing to do with me, is what Blake is going to say. I cannot control what my friends say. And two, allowing this jury to speculate what they mean without them testifying is completely impermissible. So, in other words, is the prejudice of allowing this so high that it overcomes how necessary or how informative it would be to help the jury? Justin's, on the other hand, is going to say, I think it should all come in. She's filing a lawsuit against me because of this power dynamic. She is using her famous friends and all of these messages and these movies to destroy my reputation. I think the jury should be allowed to hear it. So that is gonna be the battle that's gonna go back and forth with them.
- [27:45]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
And look, we, of course, we reached out to Taylor Swift, we reached out to Ryan Reynolds to ask them about their inspiration, about those two respective pieces of work, and we didn't get a response. But you mentioned there about you can't have this in unless we call them to the stand and they tell us what they meant by this. Can they call? I think it's called hostile witnesses. If Taylor goes, I don't want to come, but they call her anyway. How does that work?
- [28:05]
Sean Kent
Yes. So, of course, to get a witness to come to the stand, you have to give them a subpoena. A subpoena, of course, is a formal document that you send to somebody and say, I want you to show up and testify. Now, once you are subpoenaed, that is an order of the court, as you've heard us talk about before. If you ignore the order of the court, you can be held in contempt. The court can put you in jail because you have ignored an order of the court. Now, what will end up happening a lot of times in our situations is if you send a subpoena to somebody who does not want to testify and does not want to help you, they can be seen as hostile. You should be very careful of putting somebody who hates you on your stand to help your case out. That is what's called a hostile witness that witnesses hostile to your position under the rules of the courtroom and not to get too fancy. But usually what ends up happening is when Blake is asking questions of a witness on her side, she cannot ask what are called leading questions. All she can ask are things as. Can you tell me what happened next, Taylor? What happened when this happened? Taylor, tell me about this. That's what you do with your own witness. Now, when a witness is hostile to your position, you can ask what are called leading questions. Isn't it true you hate me? Isn't it true you sent blank? Isn't it true? Because what we're basically doing, as you remember from the Diddy trial, Anushka, you're cross examining your own witness because they are hostile to your position. Courts are not big fans of putting in witnesses who are hostile to your position for the reason I just stated. But sometimes it's necessary.
- [29:48]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Sean, like I said, we reached out to the lawyers to see what took place inside the courtroom. We haven't heard, but is there a way for us to ascertain whether there was a settlement or not?
- [29:56]
Sean Kent
Absolutely. What would end up happen is, even if it's confidentiality, because it's federal court, things are required to be filed. And so the mediator would have to file his ADR report, his alternative dispute resolution. He might not necessarily say it's settled, but you would see an ADR report saying the case has been resolved. And two the parties would have to file what's called a stipulation of dismissal. And if they filed a stipulation of dismissal along with that ADR resolution that would put two and two together, that the case has been settled.
- [30:28]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Sean, before you go, I know you've got a bar question for us. I said, please, can it be trial related? Are we still doing that?
- [30:35]
Sean Kent
Yes. Are you ready? Hardy and Jack work together. They are embroiled in a bitter lawsuit.
- [30:44]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Okay.
- [30:44]
Sean Kent
Hardy alleges that Jack says many awful sexually related jokes around her and makes the environment completely uncomfortable. Trial is set for two weeks. The two parties have engaged inside of a mediation. During a break at a coffee table, Jack went up to Hardy and said, I am sorry. I should not have done any things. I'm completely wrong. Let's try to work this thing out. They are able to work the case out. Jack pays Hardy an undisclosed sum of money. Hardy then does a press conference and tells the world about the money. Jack says, I want this thrown out. And the judge does, and they are now at trial. While on the stand, Jack says to the jury, I would never apologize to her. I have not done a single thing wrong. She is a liar. Hardy then tells the judge, I have a problem because he lied during his mediation and says this in front of the judge. What should the judge do and why?
- [31:48]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
And she signed the thing. Did she sign the thing at the beginning of the mediation that says, I won't talk about this.
- [31:52]
Sean Kent
You gotta sign him every time. So you know, that is confidentiality.
- [31:55]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Okay, how bad Is it? I would. Well, the judge has to make a decision on how bad that information is for the jury to hear. And I'd say weighing up what was said and that she said, he essentially admitted to doing this to me, is pretty bad. So the judge should either give sanctions or throw the whole thing out. Probably throw the whole thing out and try and get a whole new jury. No. And redo the trial.
- [32:18]
Sean Kent
Well, so far, you're good. Keep going through your analysis. Those are the things that a court would actually do in that situation. But remember, would Hardy actually want the case thrown out because Jack has now lied on the stand?
- [32:29]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
But it's not up to Hardy. It's up to the judge.
- [32:32]
Sean Kent
Hardy would say, you, Honor, he said this stuff. He lied. I should be able to get into the stuff he said at mediation, or what would Hardy want? Your analysis is spot on, by the way.
- [32:44]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
I don't know. We should be able to get into it. Or if you throw it, or I win or. Or I win, I don't think they could just, I win.
- [32:56]
Sean Kent
Pick me. But if you were Hardy, what would you want?
- [33:00]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
I want things that were said at mediation back on the table.
- [33:03]
Sean Kent
Yes. Yes.
- [33:05]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Hallelujah. Jesus.
- [33:06]
Sean Kent
Yes, 100%.
- [33:07]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Yes.
- [33:07]
Sean Kent
You would want that judge to say, I want that confidentiality waived because he just lied in front of the jury. And you should be able to say, I know it was confidential agreement. However he lied in front of this jury, I should be able to bring that stuff in. I know it's extreme, but I don't want a new trial because he lied, and I should be able to hammer him with it.
- [33:27]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
We got there in the end.
- [33:28]
Sean Kent
You got there. You saw the excitement.
- [33:31]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Yeah, yeah. You were like, wow, she's really losing brain cells week on week.
- [33:35]
Sean Kent
Yeah. There you go.
- [33:37]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Well, we'll see if any of this does actually play out in that courtroom in New York. Like I said before, we will be out there covering every day like we did with the Diddy trial. Sean, I'm sure I'll be having two hour long post court debriefs with you like I did with the Diddy trial. Therapist, slash lawyer.
- [33:53]
Sean Kent
Yeah.
- [33:54]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
But thank you so much for coming on this week. We really appreciate it.
- [33:56]
Sean Kent
Thank you, Anoushka. I appreciate you having me.
- [34:00]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
That was our resident trial attorney, Sean Kent, joining us from South Carolina. And that's it for this episode of Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds with me, Anoushka Matandadawati. Make sure you subscribe and turn on your push notifications so you never miss a thing.
- [34:15]
Sean Kent
I'm Eleni Jones. And I'm Mark Kermode. And in screenshot we guide you through the ever changing landscape of the moving image. I really like any story about self delusion. My intent is to allow the audience to see the shining through these people's
- [34:31]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
eyes, meeting those on both sides of
- [34:33]
Sean Kent
the camera and uncovering fascinating insights into what we watch. How would you describe the difference between
- [34:39]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
the doppelganger and the clone?
- [34:40]
Sean Kent
Why is it such a cinematic subject?
- [34:42]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
What was your relationship like with your double?
- [34:45]
Grainger Advertiser
Screenshot from BBC Radio 4.
- [34:48]
Anoushka Mutandadawati
Listen now on BBC Sounds.
- [34:54]
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- [35:24]
Sean Kent
We focus on the part of the Internet that most people don't know about. It's called the Dark Web. Undercover. In the furthest corners of the dark web, US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse. Move in now, police from the BBC World Service World of Secrets. The Darkest Web follows their shocking investigations. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.