Fame Under Fire (BBC Sounds)

Episode Title: Brigitte Macron Will Present Scientific Evidence to Prove She’s a Woman
Host: Anoushka Mutanda-Doughty
Guests: Tom Clare (Macrons’ lawyer), Dan Nardello (corporate investigator)
Date: September 18, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode addresses the viral conspiracy theory that Brigitte Macron, the First Lady of France, was born a man—a claim that recently resurfaced and exploded in reach due to US political commentator Candace Owens. Host Anoushka Mutanda-Doughty explores the origins and spread of this rumor, the legal and investigative response from the Macrons’ team, the standards for defamation in the US, and the personal and reputational impact on the Macrons. The central theme is how misinformation thrives in the digital age and what it takes—legally and ethically—to fight back.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Background of the Rumor and Its Amplification

• Origins: French journalist Xavier Poussard wrote “Becoming Brigitte,” claiming Brigitte Macron is actually her brother, Jean Michel Trogneux (02:22).

• Social Media Spread: The theory had been around since 2021, resurfacing and amplified through various content creators, notably Candace Owens (01:32–03:15).

• Owens’ Claims: She asserts Macron is married to “a biological male” and bases her professional reputation on this claim (02:04, 05:04), further weaving in unrelated allegations about pedophilia, “transgenderism,” and incest (03:15).

  “You are officially a very goofy man, Brigitte. But I got to give it to you, you’ve definitely got balls.”
  – Candace Owens (02:16)

  “There is an overwhelming amount of evidence and Emmanuel Macron is married to a biological male.”
  – Candace Owens (02:04)

• Viral Reach: One TikTok alone hit 14.5 million views (03:49), showing the real-world influence of viral conspiracy content.

2. The Macrons’ Response and Legal Action

• Defamation Lawsuit: After repeated warnings to Owens to cease making false statements, the Macrons filed a defamation suit in Delaware (04:29). They emphasize the human impact of the allegations and the need to set the record straight (05:38).

  “These folks are obviously very important on the world stage, but they are also human beings... it is offensive and hurtful to them to be accused of effectively criminal actions and conspiring to lie to the world about their identities, their relationship and their professional lives.”
  – Tom Clare (05:38)

• Lawsuit Rationale:

  • Not about engaging with every gossiper online, but targeting the main amplifier whose claims have entered mainstream discourse (06:44).
  • Lawsuit became necessary after Owens ignored retraction letters and doubled down (06:44, 13:17).

3. Evidence and Discovery

• Scientific Evidence:

  • Brigitte Macron is prepared to present scientific evidence and personal documentation in open court to conclusively refute the claims (08:18, 22:22).
  • The Macrons’ legal team stresses this is a deeply invasive process but underscores their confidence in disproving the rumors (08:18, 22:32).

  “There will be expert testimony that will come out that will be scientific in nature, that will also demonstrate the falsity of the statements.”
  – Tom Clare (08:18)

• Refusal to Provide ‘Proof’ Directly to Owens: The Macrons will not privately send evidence to Owens for fear of misuse, instead presenting it only under court rules (21:37).

  “We are prepared to supply all of those materials, but we’re just gonna do it in open court where there are rules, where the rules of evidence apply, where there’s proof, and where it can be done publicly in a way that people will see how it’s presented.”
  – Tom Clare (21:37)

4. Owens’ Network and Motive

• Political Ties:

  • Investigator Dan Nardello describes connections between Owens and the French far right, as well as associations with Nigel Farage and CPAC appearances (10:29–11:25).
  • Motive is not central to winning a civil suit but is important for narrative in front of a jury (12:00).

  “People want to try to make sense of it because her statements... after being warned repeatedly that this is false and continuing to double down... it’s useful to be able to tell a story about what motivates her.”
  – Tom Clare (12:00)

5. Legal Standards and Process (U.S. Defamation Law)

• Actual Malice Standard: As public figures, Macrons must prove Owens made statements with “reckless disregard for the truth” after being expressly notified of their falsity (14:31–15:10).

• Substantiating Proof:

  • Retraction letters laid out contradictory evidence and pointed out Owens’ cherry-picking of sources (15:10, 17:54).
  • Not required to provide all evidence pretrial—denials and a public record suffice initially.

• Merchandising the Rumor: Owens sells T-shirts mocking the Macrons, moving her beyond journalistic standards and into commercial exploitation of the falsehood (20:04).

  “It is designed to bring an audience and to add clicks and to gain attention for herself and for her platform. This is not journalism.”
  – Tom Clare (20:04)

6. Jurisdiction and Tactics

• Delaware Filing: Owens’ businesses are Delaware entities, establishing jurisdiction. The Macrons are open to refiling in Tennessee if required—though they view Owens’ objections as evidence of her evasiveness (22:49–24:53).

7. Implications for the Macrons

• Discovery Stakes:

  • Both sides’ private lives could be laid bare in the US discovery process. Macrons are prepared for this, underscoring their commitment (25:13).

  “They are courageous in that regard... they’re not afraid. They’re not afraid of that discovery. They’re not afraid of the truth.”
  – Tom Clare (25:13)

• Personal and Reputational Damage:

  • Day-to-day impact includes anxiety at public events and the awareness that others may believe the smear (34:42).

  “You walk into a room of a hundred people... there are people in that room that are wondering is this true?... All of these things are incredibly upsetting.”
  – Tom Clare (34:42)

• Relationship Impact: Despite the intense spotlight and strain, the Macrons remain unified and determined (33:23).

  “They are unified and they are strong in their resolve... they are coming together to fight it.”
  – Tom Clare (33:23)

8. Limits and Next Steps

• Can This Ever End? There’s no guarantee Owens wouldn’t just pivot to another wild accusation, but a legal victory should diminish her credibility in mainstream media’s eyes (29:25).
• Immediate Next Steps: Macrons’ legal team is considering how to respond to Owens’ motion to dismiss—either by arguing jurisdiction or amending the complaint with new evidence (38:31).

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Candace Owens’ Provocation:
  “I would stake my entire professional career on all of those points.” (05:04)
• Tom Clare on Going to Court:
  “It's incredibly intrusive for this family to have to go into open court and present this evidence. But that should just demonstrate how serious they are.” (08:18)
• Dan Nardello on Motive:
  “We found connections, strong connections between Owens and the French far right...” (10:29)
• Owens Selling Merchandise:
  “She’s selling T-shirts, mocking the Macrons. How many responsible journalists do that?” (20:04)
• Tom Clare on Discovery:
  “They said yes to that, yes, we stand ready to go through that discovery process. Yes, we stand ready to travel to the United States and appear in a public courtroom and explain why this is false.” (25:13)
• Personal Toll:
  “You have a reputation and you have sensibilities when you're out in public and they get asked about this at events. Imagine going to an event and... having to know that there are people in that room that are wondering is this true?” (34:42)
• Macrons’ Resolve:
  “They're unified and they are strong in their resolve to do this... it's a really beautiful thing.” (33:23)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|--------------------------------------------| | 01:09 | Episode Intro, lawsuit context | | 02:04 | Candace Owens’ core claims | | 04:29 | Lawsuit filed against Owens in Delaware | | 05:04 | Owens’ full theory outlined | | 08:18 | Scientific evidence and trial commitment | | 10:29 | Owens’ network, French far right links | | 14:31 | US defamation legal standard explained | | 20:04 | Owens’ merchandising and journalistic ethics| | 22:22 | Existence of personal/proof photos | | 25:13 | Discovery process and Macrons’ resolve | | 29:25 | Future risks—pivoting to new theories | | 33:23 | Personal & relationship impact on Macrons | | 34:42 | Real world repercussions and damages | | 38:31 | Legal next steps—motion to dismiss |

Tone & Takeaways

• The episode carries a sober, fact-focused tone, empathetic toward the Macrons’ plight without lapsing into sensationalism.
• It combines legal, investigatory, and personal perspectives to show just how high the stakes are—and how difficult it is to fight viral misinformation in the age of “newsfluencers.”
• The podcast is both a warning about the power of social media conspiracies and a case study in high-stakes, public legal combat.

Summary prepared for “Fame Under Fire,” BBC Sounds — For listeners who need an in-depth, timestamped overview of the episode’s substance.