Anushka Mutanda Doughty (2:33)

No.

Bertrand Chola (2:34)

No. I feel guilty that I cannot do more on subjects that matter, that I feel guilty.

Anushka Mutanda Doughty (2:39)

When I spoke to him, he told me he wasn't nervous that a conviction wouldn't stop him, but that he's already lost family members over these allegations. Now we're going to catch up with him later and see if he feels the same way after the verdict. So I know some of you are thinking, what? Why on earth are you actually speaking to this person who is now a convicted criminal? Why give him the time of the day knowing that he's posted these things? Well, we can't pretend that these people don't exist. We can't pretend that they don't post these things. And I want to understand why. What's behind it, what's motivating them? Is it actually all about Brigitte or is there something else going on here? And for those of you who've been with us through the Macronverse in France and in Delaware where they're suing Candace Owens for defamation. But Chanchola is part of the anatomy of this allegation. He's one of the people who help it travel around the world. And what I mean by that is he is from France where this allegation originates about Brigitte's gender. But he's now pointing to Candace Owens content as a basis for his questioning of Brigitte. So it all swirls around in one big storm. It becomes self sustaining. The story feeds itself. And the last question of course is will this criminal conviction actually stop him from doing it again? And I'm going to put that to him later. But right now I'm joined by the BBC's Paris correspondent, Hugh Scofield. Hi, Hugh.

Hugh Schofield (3:51)

Hello.

Anushka Mutanda Doughty (3:52)

Today we have had the verdict of the cyberbullying trial in France. For our listeners who aren't quite aware what was going on, it wasn't the actual hearing of the court case today.

Hugh Schofield (4:02)

No, no. It's classic French practice. The, the court case took place several weeks ago in October. And at the end of the court case they, they set a date for the reading of the verdict. So the, the judge would go away and deliberate and then the court would reconvene at a later date. That was today. The court reconvened, but most of the defendants weren't there. It was really just a reading out of the verdict from the president of the court. So no great drama in court, but an important decision nonetheless.

Anushka Mutanda Doughty (4:30)

Can you tell us some of the stuff that was said about Brigitte and what she's gone through?

Hugh Schofield (4:35)

Sure. I mean, you got to put this in context. You know, this court case is part of a series of court cases which stem from this story, this story which was invented a few years ago about her being a man. And this story was relayed in a famous video by a so called journalist and a so called spiritual medium, famously about four years ago. And then it started getting traction. And in the last couple of years, people have then picked up on Candace Owens, the great famous American influencer, and started retweeting what she's done. So in the sphere of social media, this story, this fake story, this complete fabrication about her, Brigitte Macron, being a man, has been perpetuated. It's got legs, it's just spreading. And so what the Macrons have done is take people to court. Brigitte Macron lodged a complaint with the courts and it led to this trial. This trial is of minnows. I mean, these people aren't particularly important people at all. But the Macrons have decided to go on the offensive. And the courts have found, or the police investigating, police located, identified a number of people who were either responsible for posting this kind of stuff online, or at least of spreading it by reposting it and tweeting it and liking it and so on. And these 10 people, in the most part, totally ordinary people, Mr. And Mrs. Bloggs, came to court. And so in the court case, the evidence was presented against them, what they'd posted online. And on top of that, there was the evidence from Brigitte Macron's family about the damage it had done to her. Brigitte Macron herself did not appear in court, but her daughter Tifa, in her 40s, did appear in court and told the court about the distressing nature of the allegations that were being made against her mother, about how her mother's life had been very adversely affected, about how it affected the way she went about getting up, getting dressed, appearing in public, because she didn't want to give ammunition every time she went out to people saying, oh, look, there's a man. It had upset her relationship with her grandchildren because her grandchildren had been told and were asking her questions, are you a man, granny? This kind of thing, things you couldn't understand were, you know, were very upsetting for the family. So that was the evidence of how this was damaging the Macron family. And then of course, there was the defense, which said, no, you know, all we're doing is indulging in legitimate speculation or it's satire or we're being repressed by a deep state media. All these defenses came out from the various different defendants. But in the end, the court decided that they would have none of it and said, no, this is a case of cyberbullying and you are all guilty.

Anushka Mutanda Doughty (7:24)

Broadly, the reaction across France, I know there is a very loud critique that this is the repression of free speech.

Hugh Schofield (7:31)

It's very difficult to judge, isn't it? I mean, the people I know and talk about this with are unanimous. The whole thing is scurrilous and distasteful and all the rest of it. What's always struck me about this story is that a few years ago we wouldn't have gone near it with a barge pole, we'd have said, no, we're not doing this by merely reporting it, we are perpetuating it. And so the rule of thumb for journalists was if it's rubbish, don't talk about it because you're simply doing what the people who made it up want you to do, which is talking about it. That rule of thumb has disappeared suddenly. And now we are busy covering these stories which we know are rubbish because it's a social phenomenon. We're reporting the bigger issue about social media, about conspiracy theories, about how people can be led to believe things which they would otherwise know not to be true. But I think it's even more complicated than that. I think what worries me is that people are finding that in their common sense reaction to stories like this, which is that it's rubbish. A little niggling doubt has been inserted. So many, many people who, they'll say, yes, yes, of course it's rubbish, but who knows? And it's that little but who knows that the conspiracy theories exploit. They've got the wedge in the breach and they're opening the door. And that's what's happening. More and more people who basically don't believe this story are also saying, well, it is a bit odd, isn't it? And you know, she is so much older than him. And I fear that this is the thin end of the wedge and it's a contamination which is spreading across our societies. Even I have felt myself every now and again saying, hang on a second, I mean, can I be absolutely sure that she's not a man? I mean, of course I'm sure she's not a man. But the constant bombardment of this information and the presence of people like Candice with her, totally convincing, skillfully put together, superb delivery and style, all that. You can see how that works on people's brains and it's a terribly worrying phenomenon.

Anushka Mutanda Doughty (9:35)

But you said a multi pronged attack there from the Macrons. We've got that court case in Delaware, we don't have a trial date for that. Yes, We've got this Tiber bullying trial that's just concluded, and then the appeal that's headed to the high courts with those two, the medium and the other influencer you mentioned, do you think that this victory today will actually be a win for Brigitte Macron, or this will just carry on as it was before?

Hugh Schofield (9:58)

No, it is a victory for them. I don't think it'll do anything, really, to address our headlong rush to this kind of mindless behavior. Behavior. If it stops some people from posting because they can see that they are liable to, then it'll do something. I mean, this law is quite new. I mean, cyber bullying, the concept of cyber bullying is something quite new. So this is a law which is only on the statute books a small amount of time, and they've used it. And so it will set a precedent. More people will be prosecuted if they indulge in this kind of thing. So it is a kind of victory. But, of course, the sheer mass of messages and postings that are going on out there, I think, mean that this is just a. I don't know what the metaphor is, but it's a counterpuff against a torment, a storm, you know, stuff that's blowing in the opposite direction. But what is clear is that the Macrons have decided to make themselves a test case for humanity in all of this. Whether they see it in those terms, I don't know. But, I mean, they've decided that this is an issue of our time. It is an issue in which people need to make a stand, and they're making a stand. And so there's the libel case, which they failed at because on appeal, the libel, the appeal court found in favor of the people who made that initial broadcast, conversation about her gender and so on. But they've taken that now to the High Court of Appeal, and, well, we'll see what happens there. And then they've won this case. But, I mean, all this is as nothing compared to the big case, which is going to be, of course, the Candace Owns affair.

Anushka Mutanda Doughty (11:30)

That was Hugh Schofield, our Paris correspondent. Now, after the verdict was handed out, I caught up with Bertrande Scholler, who we heard from earlier, and asked him what he thought of the convictions. You know, every single time you've introduced yourself as a writer, but now I'm talking to you, you're a writer and a convicted criminal. How does that feel?

Bertrand Chola (11:47)

It's very strange feeling. Whatever I have done in this adventure of analyzing what was going on in the world, I didn't do for myself, I do, because I think it's important to do when you know, when you have the capability to do it, when you have the voice to do it, some of us have to do it. So being a convicted criminal, as you say, it's terrible for my family, for me, it will change a lot of things in my life. I cannot even anticipate how many things it will change, because of course, it will change a lot of things.

Anushka Mutanda Doughty (12:24)

Now, it's very clear that Bertrand views his right to post this content as part of his freedom of speech. And he kept talking about his right to critique Brigitte, his right to critique the Macrons. But the idea that he's on trial for. For a critique is a mischaracterization of the charges. And I pressed him on this. Some of those pictures, her head isn't even in it. It's zooming in. It's got her private parts in the center of the screen, a male torso edited onto her. That's cyberbullying, and that's what you've been convicted of. So do you think. Do you regret posting that?

Bertrand Chola (12:57)

No. You know, you don't need to love the people who run the country. And you think they have been lying to you from day one.

Anushka Mutanda Doughty (13:06)

Are you going to change what you post and how you post because of this conviction?

Bertrand Chola (13:12)

I have no idea. You know, it happened today. So today I am under kind of shock. You know, it's very big because I was not expecting this.

Anushka Mutanda Doughty (13:24)

Did you think you were going to get convicted or not?

Bertrand Chola (13:26)

You know, when the law appear, I wrote long letter on it, and I say, this is nuclear bomb for freedom of speech.

Anushka Mutanda Doughty (13:36)

That was Bertrande, scholar, French author, and a man who, alongside nine other people, has been convicted of cyberbullying Brigitte Macron. What does Brigitte have to say about all this? Well, the night before the trial, she spoke to French tv. She said, I quote, I want to help teenagers fight against bullying, and if I do not set an example, it will be difficult. And that's it for this episode of Fame Under Fire with me, Anoushka Mundadawati. Send me questions on Instagram and TikTok. It's Anoushka. And make sure you subscribe and turn on your push notifications so you never miss a thing.

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