← Fame Under Fire
Fame Under Fire
‘Free Wendy’ ‘Free Britney’: The truth behind conservatorships
00:33:53
Wendy Williams and why Drake is suing his record company over Kendrick’s song
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This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
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If you work as a manufacturing facilities engineer, installing a new piece of equipment can be as complex as the machinery itself. From prep work to alignment and testing, it's your team's job to put it all together. That's why it's good to have Grainger on your side. With industrial grade products and next day delivery, Grainger helps ensure you have everything you need close at hand through every step of the installation. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts hello and welcome to Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds with me, Anushka Matan de Doughty. Big stories taking over your timeline. Famous faces under fire. But you're not quite sure what's real and what's a load of manufactured crap design designed to get you worked up over nothing. Well, you have come to the right place. This is the podcast where we get behind the headlines. Fact checking, myth busting, pre bunking and debunking the stories taking over your feed. Whether it's a lawsuit or a scandal, we have you covered. And if you've got a question, send them to me on social media or WhatsApp us at 03306-78114. That's 03306-78114. Don't forget to subscribe and turn on your push notifications so you never miss a thing. Coming up on the podcast, what happens if you're diagnosed with the disease and some of your rights are taken away?
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I am not cognitively impaired, you know what I'm saying? No, but I feel like I am in prison.
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That's media personality and broadcaster Wendy Williams, who is fighting her guardianship speaking to the Breakfast Club. And then later we're taking a look at the defamation lawsuit that Drake has filed against his own record label.
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This is all happening while Drake and UMG are prepping for the biggest release or the most important release of his career with Iceman. And it's just kind of like the equivalent of arguing with your boss in the parking lot before you have to give a company wide presentation.
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Later, Professor Mark Anthony Neal will be back to talk to us about rap battles. But first, we have our resident criminal defense attorney, Shawn Kent joining from South Carolina. Hi Sean.
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Hey Anuska, how are you doing?
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I'm doing good. Now. Sean couldn't do us yesterday because he's got a real job. How was that, Sean?
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Yeah, a lot of work to do.
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Yeah, that's why they pay you the big bucks. But we are. First of all, I'm a poor country lawyer. I'm just waiting for that. I'm poor. I'm poor. You got $70,000 on your wrist. Please don't chat to me.
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Poor, humble country lawyer. You forgot humble.
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We're starting with Wendy Williams. You know who Wendy Williams is, But maybe if you're a little younger. Wendy Williams is a veteran broadcaster. She's an entertainment journalist that everybody knew her show, Hot Topics. On the Wendy Williams show, it was like appointment viewing. She was known for being quite controversial. She'd stir the pot a little, and if you tuned in, you'd probably see her saying, how you doing, Sean? Can you do.
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How are you doing?
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Can we talk?
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Can we talk?
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Yeah. Clap if you love Beyonce. Clap if you hate Beyonce. That's very Wendy Williams.
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So now guess who's jealous of Adele. Beyonce. According to In Touch magazine, Beyonce feels.
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Overshadowed by Adele and knows that she can't compete. Well, here's my thought. You don't have to compete.
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Adele is great and you're great.
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We could never get away with saying that. We'd have to put a right of reply into BEYONCE Saying Beyonce. Ms. Knowles, do you feel overshadowed by it? Adele. But that's what I mean. Wendy could get a little messy. She'd beef with P. Diddy. She'd beef with 50 Cent. She'd find new and original ways to approach the saying of people's names.
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There's a woman that you know as Douh.
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Her name's Dua Lipa. Yeah, but you call her Du Lape.
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Du Lape.
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Her name's Dua Lipa.
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But you call her Dua Lapeep. People, I'm sorry.
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This is what I mean. Wendy was kind of cemented in the public consciousness as somebody who courts a bit of controversy. She had her show, she had her investigations that she was doing. But now most of what we hear about her is about her trying to get out of this guardianship that she's in now. We hear guardianship, conservatorship all of the time, Sean. We heard about it with Britney Spears. We hear about it with Wendy. Sometimes it feels like we only hear about it when it's to do with celebrities. What actually are guardianships and conservatorships?
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Okay, so first of all, guardianship and conservatorship, they are actually interchangeable words. It depends on what state you are. Because Wendy Williams is in New York, it is a guardianship. If it's in California, Britney Spears was dealing with a conservatorship. The long and short. What makes this case so interesting is the way it started is Wendy Williams was banking with bank Wells Fargo. Wells Fargo noticed from her financial advisor that there were some weird things going on with her money, if you will. And so in their rules and their regulations and the thing that you sign when dealing with the bank, they can flat out tell the court, look, we're worried, we're worried that someone can take advantage of her. So court so that someone doesn't take advantage of her, take her money so she's not out at 4 o' clock in the morning trying to buy an elephant. Believe it or not, Anushka, I actually did that once, that's why I bring that up. But if she's not out trying to buy something crazy in the middle of the night, the bet yet that actually happened, the the bank can come in and say, court, we want you to do something. So they went to the court, petitioned the court, they said, we're worried about Wendy. And they got a guardianship and they had it a court appointed guardian, which is also rare because usually it's a family member, but they got a court appointed guardian, said, you are in charge of looking at her money to make sure she is not doing anything untoward that's going to hurt her down the road.
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So her show ended in 2022 and in 2023 her care team said she had been diagnosed with frontotemporal dementia and aph. She spoke to TMZ in February this year from her assisted living facility.
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I am not allowed to go out. I can call you, but you can't call me. I went from, you know, 1,000 to zero once I got involved with this guardian situation. In the last 30 days I went out twice for my teeth, you know what I'm saying? And I want my life back.
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Now Wende has said that her guardian, her appointed guardian needs to get off her neck. She's made it very clear that she's unhappy about this guardianship. But a judge has just upheld that she needs to remain with her guardian following medical tests. We don't hear guardianship's conservatorship spoken about in a very positive light. Sean. Often it's tantamount to I'm being restricted, my freedoms are being restricted. Is there room for abuse with the way that these are set up?
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Absolutely. But you know, It's a catch 22. Do we want a system in which, and you know, history is replete, whether it's America Whether it's London, wherever it is, on very rich people doing a. Whatever happened to. And we look back in time and like God, they went through all of their money, how come nobody was there to protect them? And so that's what the system is designed for, that if some of these people are acting off, if you will, then the court can step inside and make sure we're trying to protect you from yourself. And that's the point of a guardianship. If the court feels you are a danger to not only yourself but potentially others, we can step inside and get involved. Usually a guardianship started because the family member, people who know you, people who love you, are looking at you and say, mama ain't acting right. Mama is spending a bunch of money, people are coming in and taking advantage. Mom is 84 years old and now she's got a 22 year old boyfriend who's writing checks for Cadillacs. The court says we've got to stop so this woman doesn't lose all of her money. What's interesting in the Wendy Williams situation, unlike Britney Spears and others, is a bank got involved. A bank who has no relationship emotionally but has a fiduciary relationship said, we're worried about Wendy, we don't want her to go through all of our money. Court get involved. And a court who is supposedly neutral and detached looked at it, looked at her medical records, met with folks and said, something's going on for some reason. The court got involved and said, let's stop this. You ask the question, is it replete or want for misuse? Absolutely. And here's the other thing is if you think about it, if just doing wild, crazy, unnatural things was the reason you should get a guardian. But you talk about Wendy Williams and Britney Spears and things of that and I was like, oh, this poor young lady can't control her finances. Let's get a guardianship. It's a weird situation if you look at it.
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So the bank flagged this, which is not normal. It would normally be the family. And then a court who you say is supposed to be neutral said, yes, we agree with this. And she has what's called, called an elder law attorney. That's her conservator. What does that mean?
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Well, everybody gets a lawyer in this situation. Technically Wendy has a lawyer, Wendy's lawyer has a lawyer. And so the system makes sure that every single person in this situation has lawyers because there is a checks and balances. Everybody has a separate role in protecting Wendy Williams's rights. But the funny part about it is, and why everybody's so concerned is you have like 13 lawyers protecting Wendy. And Wendy is saying something completely different. When he's saying, I don't want you people, I don't need you people. Why does everybody keep appointing these lawyers for me?
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But when we hear Wendy speaking, she's talking about requesting an iPad that she's been denied. She wants to go certain places. She says her movement is being restricted. Is that within the remit of somebody who's supposed to be keeping an eye on her finances?
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The court can put whatever restrictions they want on it. That's the thing about the court, the one thing that was wild about me, I don't know if you saw, she had to ask permission to go see her 94 year old father's birthday. She had to ask permission from the court ordered guardian. That's when it gets a little crazy. Now the wild part is the records are sealed for the most part. So what we don't know is why the court put those types of restrictions. Is she doing situations, is she doing such harm when she goes to these places to her own devices that could hurt her and hurt others? We don't know that yet because we don't know what's in those filings. But yes, to answer your question, you don't usually see it this extreme unless they're very concerned that it's not just finances, it's her personal being that they can't control.
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But what about your amendments? You guys love your amendments. They're enshrined, they're codified. What about the 14th Amendment? Freedom of movement, liberty. Doesn't this impede upon that she's a U.S. citizen?
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Absolutely. But you know, the one thing we're also worried about is we have. Each state can create systems and I'm glad you asked that in each state can create different systems to protect their own individual citizen. So New York has created this to say we are more concerned about your individual rights and making sure other people don't take advantage. Because at the beginning, if we don't have this situation, how do we feel if all of a sudden somebody just goes to Wells Fargo and writes themselves a check for $2 million and said Wendy Williams said I could. And they call Wendy Williams, she said, write him a check, go ahead, write him a check. And then later she brings a lawsuit against Wells Fargo and says, you shouldn't have done that. You know, I wasn't of my right frame of mind. If you've ever made an order on a credit card or done something out of the ordinary, and all of a sudden, your bank has said, we are putting a hold on that transaction, Nushka, because it seems fraud to us. We're like, thank you. It's the same situation, but it's much more extreme.
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Yeah, that's when I did a big weekly shop. They're like, suspicious activity going out of your.
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Happened when I tried to buy an elephant.
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You see, this is what I want to ask you about this. Just quickly, because you're coming back to us later. Talk about Drake and Kendrick Lamar. But I know you don't drink, and I know you don't do any substances of any type. So you were trying to buy an elephant of your own free will, completely coherent and cognizant of everything around you.
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The only thing I would disagree with is the word try. I actually bought said elephant and received a call asking what zoo they wanted it delivered to. And when I said I just wanted it sent to my office, it was a whole thing.
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Maybe you need to be.
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But you see, what. But here's the wild part about that. If I was a woman, maybe, or if I was up, people would come in. It's like, what is that crazy person doing? But Sean does. It's like, oh, that's so laughable.
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So you're saying that these are inherently misogynistic?
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Absolutely. I mean, look through our history, and this is just me saying, but look through our history. Look who are. Look who are the ones who are controlling. Look at our history in the United States of poor little woman can't control her finances. So let's step inside and make sure we can have control over her. You don't hear about a lot of guardianships when it comes to men. You just don't.
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Yeah. Well, before we get into what we've heard back from Wendy and her team, is this a thing that's quite common throughout the country? Because we obviously hear about it when it's relating to celebrities. But is this happening, you know, in every other home in America?
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It is definitely common in the United States, Anoushka. It happens a lot more than you think. Usually, though, it doesn't happen with really rich folks. What ends up happening is somebody getting a Social Security check or a smaller amount of money. And then we have family members who might be taking advantage of that check. Our senior citizens in certain situations are relying on their families. And what ends up happening is some family member comes and says, hey, grandpa's been dating this little old woman, and we're worried he's not able to make his own decisions. We're worried about his dementia kicking in. Grandpa's out here changing his will and we're worried this is happening. So we go to the court and we provide proof that he is not of his own fit state in mind. We're worried that this is going to affect him down the road. So this does happen. It's just very rare when you see the famous people situation. But it happens more than you think because we do worry about people taking.
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Advantage of now we asked for statements from Wendy Williams and her lawyer Joe Tasapina. We also asked for a statement from Sabrina Morrissey, who's the conservator, and none of them have got back to us yet. In April, Tasapina told tmz, I've spoken to Wendy Williams, I'd say for hundreds of hours over the last couple of months. She's as Wendy Williams as she was 10 years ago. She's as Wendy Williams as she was when she had one of the best shows in television. She's absolutely capable of hosting a talk show or doing whatever she wants to do. Now Sabrina Morrissey previously told Vanity Fair earlier this year that Wendy Williams living arrangements and level of care came from medical recommendations, saying, it's not something I decided. Sean, you're going to be back with us later talking about Drake and Kendrick Lamar and Universal Music Group and this defamation lawsuit. So we'll see you in a bit.
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I'll see you soon.
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Now we told you a few weeks ago on this program, don't take streaming figures at face value. 100 million streams doesn't mean that 100 million people are going to go out and buy your concert ticket or your merch. In 2019, the CEO of Spotify, Daniel X, said that around 40,000 songs are added to the platform platform every day. That is an awful lot of noise to cut through. So it really takes a lot to have a hit like Thriller or Happy, Pharrell's Happy or like the Macarena, something that's everywhere. But last year, Kendrick Lamar's diss track Not Like Us did all of that and then some. With 1.62 billion streams on Spotify, 385 million views on YouTube, and billions and billions of views on TikTok, it surpassed everybody's measure of success. I mean, he performed it at the Grammys where he won in all five categories where he was nominated. He performed it at the bowl where it got its largest audience ever with 133.5 million viewers. And then he did the LA show, the landmark one that pop out Kenny and Friends, where he performed the track five times. As selected by 13,000 voting members. The Grammy goes to. Ah, Kendrick Lamar.
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What's up, man? All right. Nothing more powerful than rap music. I don't care what it is. We are the culture. It's gonna always stay here and live forever until the young artists like my.
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Man Punch say, I just hope you.
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Respect the art form, that's all. Respect art form, get you where you need to go.
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Now, all of that is well and good, except for the fact that throughout the song, Kendrick repeatedly claims that Drake, YMCMB alumni and one of the most commercially successful rappers ever is a pedophile. And there's a whole lawsuit that Drake has filed that we're gon get into later. But first, I'm joined by Mark Anthony Neale, professor of African and African American studies, who runs courses on the history of hip hop at Duke University in North Carolina. Hello, Professor.
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Hello. How are you doing?
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I'm good, thank you. Look, we're talking about this, you know, not like us, which went everywhere. I mean, this was the hit. But included in that diss track were really serious allegations. Rap battles are nothing new. They're really central to the culture. And it's quite often a way that an MC can kind of prove themselves. But has there been a shift in what they focus on? You know, previously about be about your skill or your record label, and now it's like heinous accusations or personal details or exposes about your life.
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It's important to remember that this is not a new phenomenon. Right? Hip hop, rap music was founded in the rap battle and at those early days. Right. I'm thinking about classic ones like kumo D&LL cool J as being one example. Common and Ice cube going back 25 years ago. Though if you look at the two of them now, you would never believe that they were ever in any kind of battle. It was always about reputation and your reputation as a rapper. And quite honestly, in these battles, a lot of rappers took Ls, they took losses and they kept it moving. Right. You know, their response was always going to be in the quality of the work. Right. Their reputation as a rapper was what was at stake. What changes now is the amount of money that is in the entertainment industry as related to hip hop and rap culture. Now you're not just simply attacking someone's reputation, you are attacking their brand in their ability to make money beyond the studio, beyond the records. And I think as money has become such a more important part of it, not just for the rappers Themselves, but also for the corporations who were invested in them as brands, including their record labels, it has created a context that when you go after someone, you really do have to go out after someone, right? You have to dead them, as it would say about 10 years ago, because they are a threat.
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So it's more so character assassination than actually commenting on the quality of their skills.
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Oh, there's no question right now it rings a little differently with Drake and Kendrick because no one ever thought about Drake as having the kind of rap skills that Kendrick had. I mean, that's why that beef was so strange, right? Because the pretext for this is always that I'm a better rapper. Drake is a different kind of phenomenon because while he wasn't necessarily the greatest rapper, he sold an incredible amount of music, right? He was one of the best selling rappers of the last decade. And so in that regard, right, you know, part of this battle was that, you know, how am I if you're Kendrick, right? How am I this great rapper and this guy who is subpar, right, has become the face of the industry, the face of what hip hop is. So in those contexts, right, the battle takes on a little different kind of color.
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Okay, well, let's look at actually what some of the things that Kendrick said. He called him a certified pedophile. He said in that very famous line, you're trying to strike a chord and it's probably a minor, which I think is maybe everybody's favorite bit. I hear you like them young. You better not ever go to Cell Block 1. If you're talking to him. You better hide your little sister from him. The COVID art for the single was an aerial shot of Drake's house with symbols that are associated with sexual predators on apps where you can see where sex offenders are. So it was very clear what Kendrick was saying. Have a response from Drake. Drake responded directly to the allegations on his track the Heart Part six. Drake is not a name that you go and see on no sex offender list. I've never been with no one underage. So he directly responded to it. But what I'm saying here is if we're getting into territory where it becomes about character assassination less so than skill. Even though Kendrick is an extremely skilled rapper. We all know that. But you're focusing more on what he's alleging than the talent or the pen or. Or the double entendres or any of those things. You're focusing on the allegations. So have we moved into a space now where as long as you come out and you something massively shocking. You're going to win the rap battle regardless of skill.
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Yeah, and it's an interesting question, right. And I don't necessarily want to attach Kendrick to the politics of the moment. Right. But we are in a moment in terms of media and culture where the truth is open ended. Right. Many folks can make allegations about anything at this particular time and not get called to the carpet for it. So in that regard, it's not surprising that hip hop is now part of this particular moment. Right, where, where truth is under assault, expertise doesn't matter. Right. The facts don't matter. You know, as we're seeing here just in terms of the political realities here in the US So in that regard, what's happening in hip hop is not necessarily unusual.
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Now, have there been things that have perhaps historically been off the table? I'm thinking here to Drake's previous big beef that he had where his son was exposed. We didn't know he had a son, and then we found out about Adonis through a rap battle. Was there a point where kids were off the table, family was off the table? The table, and you could speak about certain things and not other things.
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You would think in the best case scenario that folks would leave families out of it. Even with Das And Jay Z 25 years ago, there were questions about a quote, unquote, girlfriend slash baby mama. And Jay Z often told the story about being on a radio show and going a little too far and his mother calling him all into the station and telling them, I didn't raise you like that.
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That.
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So I, I think those have always been questions.
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Right.
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But again, you know, the rap battle is foundationally part of this practice of the dozens, you know, that occurred amongst largely young black men going back, you know, a century. And, and the, your mama joke was the foundational piece of that. Right? So yes, family is off the table unless it's done so in a playful way. And, and obviously that's not what's occurring in this particular moment.
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B
But do you think that's kind of a consequence of how much music there is out there and how much noise you have to cut through?
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Oh, there's no question of that, Right. It has to be spectacular, right? No one necessarily cares about how great that you can rap. No one cares about, you know, how great your beats are. I mean, that's matter. That's why folks have been listening to Not Like Us for the last year. But at the same time, right, you have to cut through the noise. And one of the ways that you cut through the Noise is really trying to take somebody's heart out.
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B
Now Drake's filed this lawsuit, not against Kendrick, which he highlights quite clearly, but against Universal Music Group, the parent company of his record label and Kendrick's record label. Whether it could actually amount to him censoring Kendrick ultimately is a different conversation. But before he filed it, he says in the filing that UMG told him, don't file this lawsuit. It's going to be embarrassing. It's not going to be well received by the culture. Do you think that was sound advice?
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C
I think it was. He essentially right in the world of hip hop, is a snitch. When Cruz had beefs and quote, unquote, gangster, black gangsters had beefs, they didn't go to the cops to work through the beats. They worked through whatever avenues they had to work through. So it was really strange for him to go to the courts. And I don't know what the end game can be, right in this context. It is not going to restore Drake's reputation right as a person. It's not going to restore his reputation as a best selling rap artist. That only happens if he continues to make good music, which quite frankly, he hasn't done a lot of lately. If you're looking at it from Drake, I think there are many folks who look at what he did as a weak response to the fact that in the words of Jay Z and Nas, he was totally ethered.
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B
Professor Neal, thank you so much for joining us today.
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C
Thank you.
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B
Now I'm back with our resident criminal defense attorney from South Carolina, Sean Kent. Hi, Sean, Good to be back.
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A
Thank you.
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B
Okay, now this confuses me a little bit. So Drake's filed this lawsuit not against Kendrick Lamar, who he's famously beefing with, but against umg, that's the parent company of the labels that both him and Kendrick are signed to. He says, says that Universal Music Group released this song that included the claims he was a paedophile, which of course it did. Certified pedophile. They never believed he was a pedophile and that they knew this content would be defamatory. He says aside from green lighting the release of the song, they also artificially boosted it. So these are some of the accusations he's making in this lawsuit. His lawyers threw it in, but it's a little unlike any other song ever released by Kendrick Lamar. This song has been played billions of times, which is also true. The.
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This.
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B
This song is massive. Umg, Universal Music Group say Drake is being misled by his legal representatives into taking one absurd legal step after another in a letter to the court this month, the company CEO Lucian Grange called the lawsuit farcical. I've read a few of these. Now, you know me. In a civil lawsuit, we go together, I call you.
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A
You understand defamation. Now, it seems like it's everywhere.
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B
Yeah, I can read a civil claim. This one was set out, I thought very coherently it was. This is what they've alleged. This is how they did it. And then it gave a few different reasons for motive, which I don't always see in a civil claim. So he's saying that the content of the song is defamatory. Do you agree with that?
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A
Yes, it is what's called defamation per se. There are certain things under the law that if you just say them, they are defamatory. If you talk about somebody's work, their job, if you like, they own a business, something poorly about that, if you say that somebody has committed a crime, those are things that we call defamation per se, which means if it is proven, the damages are assumed. Okay, now what makes it so you said, is it defamate? Is it defamatory comment? Absolutely. The argument that the record label is making is one of the elements to prove defamation per se is. Is when it is said it is a factual or is being offered as a fact as truth. Drake is said, you clearly are offering as a fact. The record label is saying, this is a rap battle. Everybody knows that. You guys are prone for hyperbole. As a matter of fact, Drake, you've been going back and forth with him all day long. Stop now all of a sudden, pretending that anyone believes this stuff is truthful. Drake has fired back and said, this is the difference. You have put this song out to such a worldwide audience that has gone past the encapsulation of people who understand rap, that people outside of this spectrum are now thinking that I am a pedophile. They are shooting up my house. They are doing these things. You have now crossed into the actual malice standard. Because let's make this clear, one of their claims is, we know this is actual malice because, you guys, we were getting involved in contract negotiations. So if you can boost up oh KDOT's records and make me look worse and then I am lower in the realm of scheme, then all of a sudden you can negotiate my extension a little bit differently. So that's the whole reason this was happening. You saw this as an opportunity. You put it out at the world that I am a pedophile. You know that this is false. You're pushing this out as a Fat. It is going to hurt my reputation. It's going to make me less marketable. If I am less marketable, then you can make more money negotiating with me. And that is unfair. And that's the point of this lawsuit.
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B
But he outlines a few different ways that he alleges that they artificially boosted it. We hear a lot about using bots, but he talks about this practice called whitelisting, the opposite of blacklisting, where they remove the rights restrictions on the songs. So what you get is YouTubers who can stream music, usually they can only do about 25 to 30 seconds. They could stream the whole track. So therefore there were more pieces of content that contained the song, which pushed it out everywhere. They've alleged that when you'd ask Siri to play Certified Lover Boy Drake's album, it would take you to the Not Like Us song. They've alleged that they were going into partnerships with social media influencers, sort of backdoor partnerships and getting them to play the song. So that's his alleging of how they've artificially boosted it. But what I don't understand is you talk there about the rap battle and the artistry of it. How much can like artistic license protect them in saying we don't want to censor one of our artists and that's what Drake is asking us to do.
- [29:27]
A
Absolutely. I think this is the legal analysis and concepts that are going into this are more far reaching. People think now the judge may end up throwing this out and all stopped. But if this keeps going, the potential censorship that this could have on artists is massive. As you know, I try civil cases and criminal cases. I have tried criminal cases in which prosecution has offered rap lyrics against somebody on trial and saying, you mean those to be true. The stuff that you say in your rap lyrics, lyrics are not a hyperbolic. You mean this to be true. You are a murderer, you are a gun toter, you are these things. And the rapper's like, it's just literary license. If Drake's able to get a big decision that says the stuff that you put in your rap lyrics are true, it is going to have a chilling effect, I believe, on the rap genre, if you will. Because the entire point of the rap genre is hyperbole. And that's what they're trying to say. A lot of. If you look at artists such as 50 Cent, 50 Cent had a song, talk about haha, and he flat out says, I don't drink, I don't smoke. I just put that in there because it sounded incredibly cool and People love this stuff. Drake is saying, you knew these things were true. You're saying this stuff is true about me, Kendrick and the industry is allowing you. If this keeps going, it will have a chilling effect on rap and artists and what they put it on and recording labels and so forth. It could be scary.
- [30:47]
B
Now you say there about defamation per se, which is one which is on the lawsuit. And they don't need to have, as you'd say, cognizant damages for that because it's so defamatory that the damages are assumed. But they also have just defamation on there as well. And they do go quite some way in listing the damages. Specifically, three days after the release of the song, Drake is saying that as a direct consequence of that, people drove up to his house and actually managed to shoot his bodyguard. Now, that is, you know, three days after they didn't drive past his house and said, we're shooting you because of not like us. They drove past and said, f Drake. But is that not an open and shut case like you release this in it clearly was perceived as. It's defamatory enough that people believed it and then went as far to try and wound him. And as a consequence of that, you know, he's. He's yanked his son out of school as well, so that it is affecting his life. And his bodyguard and friend was shot.
- [31:38]
A
Absolutely. Damages would be presumed. One of the things that I have mentioned before that would be though interesting. And as the Tyra saying, we started the back end the damages. What has happened, things of that nature. Drake would have to sit for a deposition. And in sitting for a deposition, he could be asked any question that they want. As you understand the definition of somebody who is a certified lover boy, certified pedophile. And some of the lyrics are, I hear you like them. Young Drake. That has been something in the industry that people have talked about forever. That Drake dates incredibly young women and has in his past. He, if he sits for a deposition, will be asked about everyone young he is dating it. Has he ever dated anyone who was a little close to the age? Truth is a defense to defamation. So if they can find one thing out there whatsoever in that song that is true, then the lawsuit goes away. And so that's something I've always said. Drake better be careful with all these pushing because he must sit for a deposition and he can be asked about his dating life, his history, how young of women that he chooses to date. And then Kendrick and UMG can say, you know, a lot of that stuff. Stuff is kind of true. That's something to think about now.
- [32:48]
B
In January, UMG issued a statement about the lawsuit. It said, throughout his career, Drake has intentionally and successfully used UMG to distribute his music and poetry, to engage in conventionally outrageous back and forth rap battles, to express his feelings about other artists. He now seeks to weaponize the legal process, to silence an artist's creative expression, and to seek damages from Universal for distributing that artist's music. In response to claims that Universal had deliberately harmed Drake's career, the label noted it had invested massively in his music, helping him achieve historic commercial and personal and financial success, which he has. I mean, he's top five for most people. He's one of the most commercially successful rappers on the planet. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about this as it goes through and we see more. And if we get a deposition from Kendrick and Drake, ooh, that's primetime viewing. Thank you so much, Sean.
- [33:36]
A
Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you.
- [33:38]
B
That was criminal defense attorney Sean Kent joining us from South Carolina. And that's it for Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds with me, Anoushka Matandadawati. Keep sending in your questions or your ideas for stories you'd like us to cover. You can WhatsApp us at 0330678-TRIPLE1 4. That's 0330678-TRIPLE 1 4. Make sure you subscribe and turn on your push notifications so you never miss a thing. It's not funny. It's true. Lily Allen and Makita Oliver Keats. I've got some questions for you, BBC Sounds. Tell me what you've enjoyed about our podcast so far. I like that you've got more and more comfortable in this space and I've watched you show all parts of yourself. We've both cried. Miss me with Lily Allen and Makita Oliver. We're just us having a chat. Feels like we've been doing it forever. We kind of have. Listen on BBC Sounds.