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Fame Under Fire
Liam Neeson, a voiceover gig and a viral backlash
00:21:54
Liam Neeson steps into vaccine debate and draws online backlash
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- [00:00]
Amber Hark
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:07]
Grainger Advertiser
If you're an H Vac technician and a call comes in, Grainger knows that you need a partner that helps you find the right product fast and hassle free. And you know that when the first problem of the day is a clanking blower motor, there's no need to break a sweat. With Grainger's easy to use website and product details, you're confident you'll soon have everything humming right along. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [00:37]
If you're the purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, you know having a trusted partner makes all the difference. That's why hands down, you count on Grainger for auto reordering. With on time restocks, your team will have the cut resistant gloves they need at the start of their shift and you can end your day knowing they've got safety well in hand. Call 1-800-granger. Click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [01:13]
Molly McPherson
Hi there.
- [01:14]
Amber Hark
Welcome back to another episode of Fame Under Fire with me, Amber Hark. I am covering the show while Anoushka and Sean take a very well earned holiday break. Quite quick introduction to me. I am a documentary maker. I am a podcaster. I've actually presented a few crime series here on BBC. Sounds that you might have heard of bad people. I presented Gangster Presents, Sex, Drugs and Cell Block Parties. I also recently traveled to Los Angeles to report on how the Friends actor Matthew Perry died. That documentary is up on BBC iPlayer now. It's called Matthew Perry and the Ketamine Queen if you want to check it out. So you could say that I am very used to digging deeper. Some of those gray areas really where celebrity meets controversy. And the stories here on Fame Under Fire aren't always criminal, but they are almost always complicated. Today's story is about reputation. What happens when a beloved movie star with a world famous slogan aligns even indirectly with a highly controversial view or ideology. We are talking about an actor whose most famous line is is basically a threat memo that I'm going to put money on that you have either used or heard at least once over the years. You know the one? I will find you and I will kill you. Have a little listen to this.
- [02:43]
Molly McPherson
Meanwhile, billions of dollars were being spent on vaccines promoted as the only path forward. But the report reveals these vaccines, rushed.
- [02:53]
Amber Hark
To market were dangerous experiments.
- [02:56]
Molly McPherson
Adverse effects were downplayed, safety concerns were ignored and public Health officials silenced dissenting voices, and yet those responsible for these policies continue to evade accountability.
- [03:11]
Amber Hark
That, of course, was the voice of Liam Neeson, the Irish actor supposedly worth $120 million. You'll know him from colossal movies like the the Taken franchise. Of course, he was in love, actually, Schindler's List, an incredibly versatile actor who was won an Academy Award, a bafta, three Golden Globes, two Tonys, and much more. But he is now also the narrator of a documentary called plague of corruption. 80 years of pharmaceutical Corruption Exposed. So this is a film which is based on a book co authored by researcher Dr. Judy Mikovitz, who's a former research scientist that has made discredited medical claims. It isn't unusual for actors to step in to do voiceovers for other films. So why are we talking particularly about this one? Joining us back on the podcast is crisis PR manager Molly McPherson. Molly, welcome back. And Madeline Holper is our journalist over in New York. So, Madeline, for people just hearing about this story, talk us through it. What actually is in this documentary?
- [04:23]
Helena Merriam
Yeah, so you mentioned the film is.
- [04:25]
Madeline Holpert
Based on a book by a controversial former scientist, and she's promoted a host of unsubstantiated theories, including several during the COVID pandemic. She said that the coronavirus was spread intentionally by wealthy people to increase vaccination rates. So really a controversial figure and the film's executive producer has ties to a far right radio host in the US who's spread false theories about mass shootings in the US and so the film's website touts the film as, quote, an explosive investigation into how pharmaceutical giants systematically captured governments and deceived families and communities worldwide. But, you know, as you heard in the clip, it focuses in part on the COVID pandemic and Covid vaccines. The film also features interviews with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Who's our health secretary here in the U.S. and he's also a controversial figure, especially in terms of vaccines. And in the film, he says the big problem with vaccines is that they are just not safely tested. So it features a lot of his views and kind of lauds his views in the film as well.
- [05:26]
Amber Hark
And let's get into Liam Neeson's actual role in this because that context really matters for the story. Some of the criticism that he's been facing, is he presenting this? Is he endorsing something? Is he just simply reading the script or.
- [05:42]
Madeline Holpert
Yeah, so his role is as a narrator. Right. So he is reading a script, but he is, I'm sure, aware of what he's reading. So in, in the narration in the film that he reads, you know, he criticizes COVID lockdowns. He can be heard calling Covid vaccines, you know, dangerous experiments. And he repeats other fringe talking points as well. His PR team has said he's never been and is not anti vaccine. They've cited his work with unicef and they also gave a quote that says, we all recognize that corruption can exist within the pharmaceutical industry, but that should never be conflated with opposition to vaccines. So they're saying, actually he's not anti vaccine, despite some of the narration that.
- [06:21]
Amber Hark
We'Re hearing in the film. Some of our listeners, though, will find all of this quite surprising because Liam Neeson, he has been a UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador since 2011. He has publicly promoted the importance of children going to get their immunizations, people getting the COVID vaccines. We did ask Liam Neeson for a response through his pr. They haven't responded, but to other press, his PR representatives have distanced him from the message of this film. They are saying Liam has never been and is not anti vaccination, that his extensive work with UNICEF underscores his long held support for global immunization and public health initiatives. They say that he did not shape the film's editorial content and any questions about its claims or messaging should be directed to the producers themselves. Will that distancing be enough, do you think, Molly?
- [07:19]
Molly McPherson
That statement is what I call, you know, where you're threading the needle. I mean, you are certainly dancing around the words to get from point A to point B. But what his representatives are hoping is that people also read between the lines a little to draw conclusions. I think it simply looks like an actor who picked up a narration gig in Hollywood. Some people will choose projects for themselves. It's their passion. And then they'll choose projects that have more of a financial gain for it and they don't necessarily have a belief in it. Perhaps Liam Neeson was told this will not have wide distribution. It will be private, it will be behind a paywall. You know, maybe he didn't think it would get as wide of a distribution, but again, when you get into these messages and issues and ideology, people are going to open the gates on those because they want to gain momentum and get more people to follow. So it could have been a financial payoff for em, but it's coming with a reputational cost.
- [08:19]
Amber Hark
Certainly it's the context of this documentary that really matters, isn't it, Madeline? Why has this vaccine debate become so tribal, so polarized, that even Someone just narrating a film can feel like they're choosing sides.
- [08:36]
Madeline Holpert
Yeah, you're right. We're at a really polarizing moment in the US in terms of the debate about vaccines. Anti vaccine views have kind of been on the rise in the US For a long time and I think we're kind of exacerbated during the pandemic. And you know, these are one sort of fringe views. They've now kind of entered the much more mainstream with the appointment of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. As Health Secretary under President Donald Trump. This is a person who's long expressed unsubstantiated views about vaccines, including that they have ties to autism, which has obviously been debunked. And so since Kennedy has been appointed as Health Secretary, he's made a number of kind of massive changes to who and how we recommend vaccines in the US to give you a few examples, last year he fired all the members of an independent vaccine advisory committee and he replaced them with his own picks, many of whom have been critical of vaccines. And that advisory committee has made a number of changes to vaccine recommendations, including last year they ended the recommendation we've had for a long time in the US to vaccinate all newborn babies against hepatitis B. The CDC under Kennedy has also greatly slashed the number of vaccines that they recommend to children. So we've seen just a lot of changes and you know, the response from Democratic states and well respected medical associations has of course been to push back and, and offer their own sort of recommendations that mirror health recommendations before Kennedy came along. But what we've seen is these ones sort of really stigmatize and fringe views have become more mainstream and we're seeing other changes as a result. I mean, vaccination rates are continuing to fall. We're seeing one of the worst measles outbreaks in the US in decades. And health experts think that other vaccine preventable illnesses will follow.
- [10:21]
Grainger Advertiser
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- [11:23]
Amber Hark
The US Food and Drug Administration, they're known as the fda. They say that vaccines undergo rigorous testing to make sure that these products are safe, that they're pure before they ever even reach us or our bodies. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. They say that infectious diseases are at an all time low because of vaccines. And also here in the uk, our National Health Service say that vaccines are the most effective way to prevent many infectious disease and they warn against listening to misinformation on social media. So when someone like Liam Neeson says lines like vaccines were dangerous experiments in, is that distinction now almost impossible for audiences to make that he doesn't actually believe in that?
- [12:11]
Molly McPherson
Perhaps here an important distinction would be UK audiences with US audiences. The anti Vax movement is just one of many issues that the American people have to consume every single day out of this administration. RFK Jr. He is typically painted as a problematic leader. It's not just his work in the Trump White House. He has a whole history of Kennedy history and Kennedy legacy. And his first cousin, Caroline Kennedy, you know, back in January she came out and pled for the committee not to confirm RFK Jr. So there's so many other reputations battling here. And in the US the anti Vax ideological thinking has the RFK junior name attached to it, which can be problematic. So I think in the US people can be a little more discerning about it because they're looking at the people who head it. However, there are a growing number of influencers and content creators and parents and groups who want this to be a bigger issue.
- [13:21]
Madeline Holpert
I would just add that what I can tell you from speaking to a lot of Americans, including many who have anti vaccine views, is that yes, there are people like RFK who you know, are he's in a position of authority and they're getting information from him. But a lot of the information that they get on vaccines is coming from places like Facebook and social media and.
- [13:40]
Amber Hark
To some extent they might be able.
- [13:41]
Madeline Holpert
To discern, especially if they've got some sort of health knowledge themselves. But on the other Hand, you know, people are getting information from not necessarily the most reputable places.
- [13:51]
Amber Hark
And Madeline, the promoters of this film, they are going very heavy on the fact that Liam Neeson himself is narrating it. He's the most high profile person involved. As we discussed earlier. He has that kind of iconic voice or I should say he has a very particular set of skills. Some people might disagree with the messages or the theories in this film, but others will think, okay, well if the Liam Neeson is narrating this documentary, it must be accurate and that it gives it a kind of legitimacy. Is that something that we're hearing?
- [14:23]
Madeline Holpert
Yeah. He's a high profile actor so people look to him. It's the same thing we've seen with our health secretary. Right. He's the top US health official. If he's endorsing anti vaccine views, the American public, certainly some of the American public is going to look to him and think, oh, this is the person of authority who is sharing his views about and concerns about vaccines.
- [14:43]
Amber Hark
And you know, Jenny McCarthy, for example, she has claimed in the past that vaccines caused her son's autism. I remember during the COVID times, Novak Djokovic, the world famous tennis player refusing the COVID jab. He was deported from Australia and banned from the tournaments. And it was interesting, his framing of that choice was that it was bodily autonomy, it was his personal belief. And I think his reputation seemed to remain intact in the world of sport and tennis. But mainstream brands cooled with him a little bit over that period of time. Why is this any different, Molly? You know, this is just another celebrity commenting on this vaccine debate.
- [15:23]
Molly McPherson
Well, it's because, you know, in the US these issues are very significant issues because they're personal, but also they're in the front page of the headlines. Everything is polarizing in the U.S. u.S. Right now and groups love to co opt issues and if they can bring names and attach names to it, it makes it stronger. Jenny McCarthy certainly has been anti vaccine for years. She's always talked about her son. But the reality for Jenny McCarthy, she's, you know, some would argue that she's B list, C list. You know, if you get higher up that popularity chain in Hollywood and you get closer to an A list which, you know, most people would put Liam Neesom in that catego, then it becomes more problematic for someone you know of his reputation. But it's all about, you know, co opting those names. There aren't a lot of big anti vax names out there, but there is a movement and there's A movement of people in the public. And the public sentiment can be very, very strong, you know, in the US Particularly with social media. So that's why Liam Neeson likely wants to detach himself from this as much as he can.
- [16:33]
Amber Hark
And it's worth saying, I guess, that also on the other side, vice versa, some people can become celebrities because they align themselves with this certain ideology. I'm thinking of influencers and youtubers like Candace Owens. She hosted a documentary series called A Shot in the Dark. That documentary questions the narrative that vaccines are making us healthy. So some people are quite happy to pick a side.
- [16:59]
Molly McPherson
Oh, absolutely. Because if you pick a side and you are a content creator like a Candace Owens, it gets to be very profitable to pick a side. You can have that side, then you have all the clicks and the views and the money that comes from it. And people know what they're leveraging. You know, they're leveraging their own income. But when you get a celebrity, when you get an actor who isn't necessarily a content creator, then you start getting into their beliefs and what do they actually believe and what can come with that is a true reputation cost and.
- [17:30]
Amber Hark
Just break down for us. Madeline, who is behind this film and where do they sit in this vaccine debate?
- [17:35]
Madeline Holpert
The film's executive producer is Ken Heckenlively. He has ties to a far right radio host, Alex Jones, the one who's promoted conspiracy theories about mass shootings in the US he's an American lawyer and author. He's known for his role in the anti vaccine movement. He bills himself as an anti vaxxer and has been actually denied a visa to enter Australia for a speaking tour because of his views. He's got ties to Robert F. Kennedy Jr. As well. So he's really, really kind of made his opinions about vaccines known.
- [18:04]
Amber Hark
And I noticed that Kent Heck and Lively posted on social media this quote saying, Liam Neeson for the win. Aslan is on our side. Aslan is all about good prevailing over evil. So reading between the lines, the filmmakers here seem to be hinting that Liam Neeson agrees with them at the very least. Molly, how damaging can that be when filmmakers kind of publicly claim you as an ally like this?
- [18:33]
Molly McPherson
Yeah, there is no doubt that Liam Neeson has been co opted definitely by this movement. They want to highlight him and profile him. But what Liam Neeson does have in his corner is that there are people in Hollywood celebrities that people love to hate and then there are people the public love to love. And I think Liam Neeson is one of those People, if this was another person in this predicament narrating this program, it could be a lot more damaging to them. It will be interesting to see how it plays out for Liam Neeson.
- [19:07]
Amber Hark
And I'm wondering, let's just talk hypotheticals for a second here, that Liam Neeson decides one day that he's changed his mind or he wants to kind of distance himself from this documentary. Well, the Internet kind of never forgets, right? This reminds me a little bit of Robert De Niro. He made an anti vaxx film called Unvaxxed, I think over a decade now. But if you search and you look up his views, it still comes up. So is that the sort of thing that can follow a celebrity for decades, Molly?
- [19:37]
Molly McPherson
Well, certainly once something is out there, it's out there. But many times the public decides the news coverage, the news cycle. And we certainly see from Liam Neeson and his representatives and his pr, he's definitely putting energy into tamping down this story. He wants to detach himself from it as much as he can. The fact that his representatives came out and firmly said his views, that they counter what was narrated on that documentary. So it will follow him. But how badly, you know, that we just have to see. I think now he perhaps probably learned a lesson here to remove himself from any type of problematic issue in the future. So he'll hope this goes away, but you just have to leave it to the public to decide whether or not to bring it back in.
- [20:29]
Amber Hark
Well, on that note of how the public have reacted to things, I was having a little nosy at some of the comments on social media because I was intrigued to see how some of his fans were reacting. And naturally mix of responses and reactions here, some disappointment, some people saying that he has just taken the money here and you know, not thinking of the kind of responsible messaging to put out. But on the other side, some people saying, well, why not? Liam Neeson's a person, he's allowed to do what he wants. He's entitled to put his name to any documentary. How would you advise a client, Molly, when their audience is almost splitting in real time like this?
- [21:07]
Molly McPherson
Well, there is a curiosity about what led him to do this. You know, there is some self interest that drives someone to choose work. And when you're a celebrity or an actor and you're known for your narration, you can choose the projects that you want to pick again with his representatives. And you said it right now, Amber, in some of the comments, some people are reading between the lines and looking at it that he Just chose a project for the money. You know, he didn't choose it for the views, he chose it for the money. And why he did. You know, we don't know. You know, people assume that all celebrities are incredibly wealthy and he's valued at $120 million. And for the average American or average UK resident, that may seem like a lot of money, but in a list celebrity world, that money can be burned fast. So it's not unsurprising that an actor would take a role or a gig for the money. And I think that's what his representatives want the public to think without coming.
- [22:05]
Amber Hark
Out and saying, it's Molly, if Liam Neeson called you tonight, then and said, I need some advice on how to handle all of this, what are you going to tell him to do?
- [22:14]
Molly McPherson
Well, it depends on when he called me. You know, if he called me months ago, I would have said, let's rethink about doing this job. But if I got that call today, I would tell him to do what he's doing right now and then just to ride it out and then be very, very choosy about the next jobs that he takes in the near future.
- [22:33]
Amber Hark
You would advise him to be very careful about how he uses those special set of skills. That makes total sense. Exactly. That was crisis PR manager Molly McPherson and New York journalist Madeline Holpert. Thank you so much for joining me both. That is it for this episode of Fame Under Fire with me, Amber Haag. As always, if you've got any questions, send them to us on social media or you can WhatsApp us on 03306-78-1111. That's 03306-78-1114. And do not forget to subscribe. Turn those push notifications on so you never miss an episode.
- [23:19]
Helena Merriam
If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft turns out to be flawed? In 1999, four apartment buildings were blown up in Russia. Hundreds killed. But 25 years on, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories because these bombs, they're part of the origin story of one of the most powerful men in the world, Vladimir Putin. I'm Helena Merriam and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss? First time round, the History Bureau. Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen, first on BBC Sounds.
- [24:09]
Grainger Advertiser
If you're an H VAC technician and a call comes in, Grainger knows that you need a partner. That helps you find the right product fast and hassle free. And you know that when the first problem of the day is a clanking blower motor, there's no need to break a sweat. With Grainger's easy to use website and product details, you're confident you'll soon have everything humming right along. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [24:40]
If you're the purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, you know having a trusted partner makes all the difference. That's why, hands down, you count on Grainger for auto reordering with on time restocks, your team will have the cut resistant gloves they need at the start of their shift and you can end your day knowing they've got safety well in hand. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.