← Fame Under Fire
Fame Under Fire
Taylor and Travis: What’s in a billion-dollar prenup?
00:27:02
How can Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce protect their assets?
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BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts hello and.
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Welcome back to Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds. With me, Anushka Matan de Doughty. Today with billionaire Taylor Swift and millionaire Travis Kelce announcing their engagement, the Swifties are talking about this new beginning in Taylor's life. While we're thinking about its potential end, Sean's here to tell us how to write a billion dollar prenup.
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Who gets the fancy Tupperware? Who gets the ugly hairless cat?
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Plus a million dollars was spent to host the event at an exclusive oceanside property in Malibu.
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A lavish pre wedding bash at the.
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Palace of Versailles, complete with prancing horses.
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Wigs and scented limousines for the guests.
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It was set in a 15th century castle. Coordinated outfits.
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Yeah, and gold thrones.
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Sarah Hayward tells us how to plan a celebrity wedding and we're not talking a spread in OK Magazine or Vogue, depending on the caliber of the celebrity. We're talking NDAs and no fly zones, as always. If you've got questions, send them to me on social media or WhatsApp us at 03306-78114. That's 03306-78114. Don't forget to subscribe and turn on your push notifications so you never miss a thing. Joining me now is our resident attorney, Sean Kent from South Carolina.
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Hey Anushka, how are you doing?
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I'm doing good. How was your birthday?
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It was good, actually. We had a very relaxing, overly priced birthday.
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D
Nice. You were in California, weren't you?
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We were in Half Moon Bay, California, celebrating my wife's birthday.
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Your wife's birthday?
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Exactly. I said what I say.
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D
But okay, so there's kind of similar territory here because we're talking about high net worth couples. I know you say you're a poor, humble country lawyer, but we know that that is actually a load of crap. So we are speaking today about prenups off the back of the Taylor Swift Travis Kelce engagement. Sean Forbes reported that Taylor Swift is worth $1.6 billion. With the big B, Travis Kelsey is reportedly coming in at about $70 million. So he's pretty poor in comparison to her. Of course, we don't know if they're definitely getting a prenup, but I'm going to assume if you were her lawyer, you'd be saying, taylor, you need a prenup immediately.
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I would be astonished if both parties weren't getting a prenup. I would be shocked. So, yes, I believe that they actually are.
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D
And you've done a fair few prenups in your day. If you were her lawyer, Monday morning you found out they were getting engaged. What are your first few steps? What are you saying to her? She absolutely needs included in this document.
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And that's a great question. And so, first of all, there is such a misunderstanding about prenuptial agreements. And I blame that pretty much on every movie ever made about a marriage. So, of course, prenuptial, nuptial, of course, just means marriage. Pre means before. So it's the thing that you must get in before marriage. The reason we have prenuptial agreements and not to look at this in a negative light. So people end up saying this in America as people realize, I think the last statistics Anushka was about 50% of first marriages actually failed. That number has actually gone down. When it actually goes up is your second marriage. 60 to 70% of second marriages fail, and then it goes up even higher on third marriages. We are conditioned America to actually think that marriages are going to fail. So. So a marriage, if you will, is just a business arrangement. It is a contract. So a prenuptial agreement is basically what's going to happen if the marriage doesn't work. It's a disillusion of the marriage. We suggest that people almost, I hate to say it, almost everyone should probably, and I mean everyone should probably consider getting a prenuptial agreement because it just helps you if the marriage doesn't work. So there's not a fight. When people are and love and happy, they're easy to deal with. But when they are angry and they're fighting, they're the most difficult people you've ever met. I've actually had couples back in the day when I did divorce work, fight over fancy Tupperware. Yes, I said that. Fancy Tupperware fighting over dog.
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I don't think that that's crazy, but.
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What a prenuptial agreement means, it. It eliminates the fight if the marriage doesn't work out.
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D
So you've got this idea of a prenup, which you're saying pretty much everybody should get, I guess from movies, we think it's reserved for the rich. What happens if you don't have a prenup? Is it a 50, 50 split or is it state by state in the U.S. great question.
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E
And that's what ends up happening. And that's why a lot of people need these prenups. Because every state is different. Perfect example is if you get married and divorced in California. California is a 50, 50 communal property state. So everything is split down the middle. If you think of some high profile divorces, mel gibson, his divorce 50, 50 split cost him $450 million. Because a prenuptial agreement, if you go to, I think Taylor Swift is in Rhode Island, Rhode island is a no fault divorce state. Travis Kelce is from Ohio. Ohio is a fault, no fault divorce state. So it's a difference. So every single state is different based upon the laws. And so that's why a lot of people want to have prenuptial agreements, so they don't have to determine what state laws control if the marriage doesn't work out. And that's what people like to know is what's going to happen, what's fault?
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No fault divorce.
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So, and this is great, and this is probably going to preempt a question that I'm sure that's going to be asked because a lot of people say in these prenuptial agreements, do you put such things as a cheating clause or a fidelity clause in there saying that if you cheat, you get blank? Well, we got to be careful. Like a perfect example is California. California is a no fault state. It don't matter if you cheat, don't cheat, whatever. We split it right down the middle if you don't have a prenuptial agreement. So adultery doesn't change anything. The person cheating, not cheating, it's a no fault state, which means we don't care what caused the breakdown of a marriage. We're splitting everything down the middle. If you know anything about California, that's where a lot of our high net celebrity couples are. And so a lot of them have prenuptial agreements. And you have to be careful because you cannot have an agreement that goes in the face of what existing law is. And so a lot of times you have battles with people saying, well, California is a no fault state and you have a cheating clause inside your prenup. How do they work well together? And so that ends up becoming a battle back and forth. So it really depends on what state you are perfect example. South Carolina is both. It's a fault, no fault, divorce state. So usually what ends up happening is you can prove fault, you can prove that it caused the breakdown of the marriage, and then that lets a court make a determination on how they're going to separate assets.
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Okay, so if you were going into a brand new prenup and you are the higher net worth individual, what are some of the things you absolutely must have in there to protect yourself in your opinion?
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One, and this is one of the things that I always say movies get completely wrong. You must disclose every dollar to the other party. So both parties have to come in there on equal footing. Meaning if you're the high net individual and the other one's low net individual, both of you have to know what the other person has completely. Okay, so you always see these movies where at the marriage the person is just like, sign this today. Well, that's not going to happen. It usually takes six months before a marriage to make a determination because you have to disclose all the money. So that's the first thing. Disclose all of the assets to both parties. Number two, make sure the other party has an attorney and you have an attorney. Separate attorneys. Why do we say separate attorneys? Because the courts won't enforce a prenuptial agreement if they believe that one of the parties has been coerced. Okay, so the high net individual says, you signed this thing or else. Well, that's coercion. And so what ends up happening is the high net individual may draft the prenup and give it to the low net individual. Travis Kelsey and says, make sure you go talk to an attorney, do all of these other things. The other thing is, given what's going on in society now, you have to talk about future royalty and future rights. So Travis Kelce has a podcast. What is that going to be worth down the road? Taylor Swift's catalog of music. What is that going to be worth down the road? What's going to happen on the money that we do together from this day for from when we get married, all of this must go into the prep. So this is where good family court lawyers make their money, because they think of everything. One of the things that people mistake is you don't talk about children in a prenuptial agreement, Children in custody and stuff like that. That has nothing to do with a prenuptial agreement.
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Okay, so you spoke about a bit of a negative reputation that prenuptial agreements have. And we hear about some of the crazy ones they go viral on social media every now and then. There was this one on this podcast that I heard the other day. I think it was Diary of a CEO Podcast.
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The most shocking prenup I've ever seen, which was enforceable, had a provision that said that for every 10 pounds the wife gained in the marriage, she would lose $10,000 a month in alimony. He was very concerned that she was going to become less attractive and he was going to become more wealthy. So his solution to this was in the prenuptial agreement, he wanted a clause that said if they divorced, she was going to get like $70,000 a month for alimony, but for every 10 pounds she gained from the date of marriage, she would forfeit 10,000amonth worth of alimony. And it was designed to sort of create an incentive that she would remain thin, and that was enforceable.
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Okay, so that's American divorce lawyer James Sexton. And he's talking about a prenup, obviously, that he was aware of or he worked on. Is that not financial coercion over an individual's actions in their private life?
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When we talk about prenuptial agreements, remember the first thing I said. A marriage is just a contract. A contract requires both parties to be on equal footing and be able to have a discussion about what both parties are getting, so they have knowledge. So a prenup is a contract. It's an agreement. The ten pound one is a wild one, but that means her and her lawyers negotiated those terms along with the other parties and the other side. And so they both had a clear manifestation of a willingness to enter into this agreement. I heard of prenuptial agreements where the amount of money the person is entitled to is based on how long the marriage lasts. Like a high net individual who's worth $100 billion said, if this marriage lasts from zero to five years and we get divorced, you get 10 million. If you make it five to 20 years, you get 20 million. And so it went that way. As long as the parties know what they're contracting for. Because, remember, this is a contract, an agreement. If they know what they're contracting for, why would the court, or why should the court get in the way as long as it's not illegal and unconscionable?
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I don't understand how that doesn't violate this lady in question with the 10 pound rule. That doesn't. That violate her constitutional rights. Freedom of movement to the fridge, freedom of movement to the carbohydrate. Well, like, she might be like, oh, I Didn't realize how much this was going to impact my day to day life. And I want to be a free individual in the United States of America. You guys look, love your freedom. And all of a sudden I can't eat bread, I can't have carbohydrates.
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I am so glad you just said that because here's one of the things that people always get confused on. We have a lot of freedoms and I think you're talking about our 13, 14, 15amendment. We have so many freedoms that we are entitled to against government interaction. So if your boss says that you cannot gain 10 pounds, or the United States government says you can't gain 10 pounds, you're exactly right. That is violative of the United States Constitution. Marrying a jackass is not guaranteed under the United States Constitution. It is your right to marry whoever you want and contract your body. Your body, your choice. If she wants to marry a billionaire and the billionaire says, I'm only going to marry you if you don't gain weight and she's like, I get to live this billionaire's lifestyle. Sign me up. That's what's going on.
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Okay, so I'm a billionaire. I'm getting married to somebody who's got a measly $70 million like Travis Kelce. Rubbish. My God, he's moving shifty at the wedding. Ok, he's getting a little bit too happy. We don't have a prenup. I'm hearing him and his family are like, oh, you're going to be set for so much money. Can I do something after the fact? Can I do a post thing? Post marriage?
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Beautiful. Absolutely. It's called a post nuptial agreement and that's one of the phrases we call. But you can absolutely do that. And remember, contract, at some point in time, you two sit around, you have this conversation, you're like, look, this ain't working. I want to make sure we know what's going to happen. You can have a post nuptial agreement, same thing. Still have to disclose all financial terms. Still have to get separate lawyers is the suggestion. It has to be in writing. You two must have an agreement. It cannot have unconscionable terms. It can't have some negative nasty stuff in there that a court would not suggest. And it can't spit in the face of the law of the state that you're generally in. We talk about those fidelity agreements, but believe it or not, a lot of courts don't like those. And a lot of courts won't enforce those fidelity Agreements because women and men sometimes have a difference on what fidelity is, you know, and so you. They don't like a lot of those clauses. A woman can say he was cheating. Well, what did he do? He was liking some girl's pictures on Instagram. And I don't like that. Who knows what triggers those clauses. So a lot of courts don't like those things. But yes, after the marriage, people out there can be married 20, 30 years and can get a post nuptial agreement. It's the same way that you in a business situation that you and your business partner down the road say, well, if this does not work, this is how we're going to separate. We've been in business 20 years. Let's update our agreement, let's update our contract, let's update our will. There's nothing wrong with that. It happens a lot of times and it should happen.
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D
We talk about protecting the assets of the person who's the higher net worth individual. What about the person who isn't? The person with less money, with less assets coming into the relationship. What should they be asking for to protect themselves?
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Same situation. I love these questions because certain things end up happening. We always talk about. And courts focus on this too, Anushka. They always focus on the, the less wealthy individual when we talk about finance, but when we talk about wealth, there's other situations. Travis Kelce's situation. Maybe he's not a billionaire now, but maybe his podcast takes off. Maybe he hits the lottery. Maybe something happens that he wants to make sure he is protected for his intellectual property rights because there's situations there so he's got to protect his assets as well. And maybe, just maybe, I'm not saying this happens, maybe he gives up all of that because he's married to a billionaire. You know, maybe Travis says, you know what, I'm going to quit the podcast. I'm going to quit playing football. I'm just going to be a stay at home daddy. And hanging out with her. And she dumps him. And in four years he's like, I gave up all my potential assets. I need to make sure I'm covered for what I gave up in this marriage. All of that goes into situation when you're thinking about prenuptial agreement.
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Amazing. When I'm taking notes, I'm taking hopeful notes.
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Aim high, nurse. When you find your man, I will write that prenuptial agreement for you.
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I got, yeah, I got to protect my assets. Yeah, I got some nice shirts. I got some doctor who trading cards. I am Rich, we got to protect that here. Amen. And we got one more question. This is specific to Taylor Swift and her cats. She's famously known for being a cat mom. She's got a few different cats. When they're doing a prenup, do you put in a cat clause? Do you put in a dog clause? Where do the cats go? Specifically, not the ones that she already owned, because I'm assuming she keeps them. But they buy a cat together, not chopping it in half. So what? They're doing custody of the cat?
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E
Here's one of the reasons you have prenuptial agreements. Not even considering. And people are making it mad. Remember I talked about children aren't considered in prenuptial agreement. Cats are property. Don't come at me. Animals and pets are property. And so if they are property, without a prenuptial agreement, there can be a who gets the property? There have been battles over who gets the pet. In divorce work, it could be like, I want the dog, you want the dog. And this has been litigation that has taken forever. And so in a prenuptial agreement, yes, you can put stuff in there over who gets the pets, because don't forget their property. And so they'll be treated exactly like property on anyone else. Who gets the fancy Tupperware? Who gets the ugly hairless cat?
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Not me.
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It depends. And so future pets, things of that nature, can all be litigated and considered in a prenuptial agreement. Crazy. It is. Animals are property. And I am an animal person. Don't come at me.
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D
Yeah, well, I was going to say, some people care about their animals more than they care about their kids.
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My wife and I would. She would physically stab me in the eyeball if I tried to take her dog.
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D
I wouldn't call them dogs. They're walking balls of cotton wool. That's not a dog, Sean. I've seen them.
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You leave my animals alone.
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D
Joining us now from London is celebrity wedding planner Sarah Hayward. Hi, Sarah.
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C
Hello.
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Okay, so I have a lot of questions. We've just gone over prenups with Shawn now. We're talking about the big day. Yeah. Scary prenups and then post nups and everything else you can get done. Now, the big day. We've got two high net worth individuals getting married. Celebrities or moneyed families or high net worth.
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Net worth.
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Ultra high. Amen. What are you doing? What are the practices you're putting in place to protect their privacy on their big day?
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C
So when we're looking at event like this, there's sort of three things we're looking at. We've got the planning of the event in those months or weeks leading up to it. And sometimes it is weeks. I mean, we've planned really big, really big weddings in a matter of weeks. So you're planning the event and then you've got to look at the client logistics and all the security that goes alongside that. You've got to look at the guest logistics and everything that goes alongside that and then the event logistics which we're really responsible for alongside the guest logistics. So that's how are we getting everything in? How are we protecting the security and the privacy element? And that might be or is likely to be hundreds of people working for dozens and dozens of companies. And that is the challenge. So none of it's rocket science, but it's just a big project with a lot of moving parts.
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D
So what about things like drones flying overhead trying to get paparazzi shots?
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C
These days it is possible to put in no fly zones and you do need, in most places, certainly in the western world, you need licenses to fly drones in most places. So you ensure that only the people that should have a license have a license. And you would be looking to secure a no fly zone over the top of the event. And we have to do that sometimes for all kinds of other reasons, like fireworks. There are certain parts of Europe, I've just been working on a wedding down on the Riviera and we had fireworks and where we are is in a flight path. So you actually have to get clearance and divert the flight path. So they're not things that we're not used to to doing.
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D
It's almost military style, you know, everything planned down to the last detail. What are some rookie errors that other companies make that you've noticed?
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We make errors as well. Timing is really, really important. What can go wrong on an event if just one element of it is behind time, Be that technical production, floristry, deliveries being behind schedule, you not actually having your production schedule in good order. And an event like I would imagine they will have will be creatively complex. So there's probably going to be a lot of bespoke elements. Building on site of something could take a week, two weeks, three weeks to build. I mean, we've done everything from building winter wonderlands on the side of a lake to creating nightclubs on the back of people's houses. These things can take weeks to put in place. If I was them, I would be looking for somewhere where that could be done with relative security and some kind of privacy. I mean, I think it's gonna be very hard for them to keep this private unless they just run away and get married in their backyard. They could do.
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D
Which I'm sure is a very big backyard. We got a question in from a listener for you, Sean. It says hi. Love the podcast since the Diddy days. That's nice. I was wondering in the wake of Taylor and Travis engagement, how big stars protect their day? Legally, there will be so much interest in their wedding. How do they use the law to maintain privacy? And what would be the consequences for a guest who took a huge paycheck for a shot of the ceremony? And it also says happy birthday for last week, which is very nice. Thank you, Kate. That's so sweet. Can you do a blanket NDA for every single guest? Is that airtight legally?
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E
Absolutely. Remember we talked about you can get a. And I've seen and heard of a lot of them. They say, we want this signed. If you want to be a guest of our wedding, you must sign this. And guess what? You don't have to be leave. And they will sign them and they will be airtight and they will be enforceable. Depending on who the celebrity is, some folks will come in and say, this is what I want for you to be attending this wedding. I don't want you to sell pictures. I don't want you to do these things. And that's the privacy. When you have that much money, you can do those things.
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Yes, it's very common. It's really very common for everybody involved in an event to sign a non disclosure. Even if they're not celebrities, they might be very successful business people who for all kinds of reasons might not want you to be publishing pictures of, say, their children. Don't forget very wealthy people. Their children are at risk of kidnap. It's a real risk. So they'll be mitigating those kind of circumstances as well. So it's not just privacy that people are looking to secure.
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D
And what about, you know, you spoke there about pictures, phones, A lot of influencers coming to weddings. It's their job to create content. How do you deal with that?
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C
Well, you don't invite them if you know that's why they're coming. Look, if we go back to Taylor and Travis, this wedding is going to attract a lot of interest. But their social group is one that also respects and desires privacy in their ordinary, everyday lives. The challenge that this couple have is Taylor in particular has played out her entire adult life in the public eye. We feel that we know her her loves and her losses. We feel that we have traveled them with her. They have controlled very carefully and cleverly how the engagement has been released. One assumes they're going to try and do the same with the wedding, but they're going to have to balance the fact that everyone expects to see elements of this wedding. And if anyone can actually do this in real time, it's Taylor Swift. She knows how to do it. So I would imagine the guest list is going to be very carefully curated. Nobody's going to give anything away, but that the couple are going to control it. They don't need to sell their wedding to a magazine. You know, they can control the whole thing themselves and get it out in almost real time.
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D
Sean, if somebody did take a picture at a wedding, they then own that photograph, right?
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E
It is a great question, but yes. So we talk about an expectation of privacy, and you're exactly right. So in the public eye, if you're walking around and I take a picture of you, that is my picture, because you're out in a place where I can take a picture, the question becomes, do you take a picture someplace where you had a legal right to. To be is the question. So have you ever noticed with paparazzi, a lot of times they said I was standing somewhere where I had a right to be and you had your window open. I have a right. In America, we're trying to make a point. You're not using a lens that goes through somebody's window or some type of lens that doesn't have your permission. But yes, for the most part, if you're someplace where you have a right to be and someone has not demonstrated an expectation of privacy in the area, it is, yes, your picture. It changes, though, when you talk about the nondisclosure agreements. If I'm invited to the Taylor Swift wedding, I promise you, there's something in the agreement that says any picture you take is ours. It's our property. If you take anything that is ours, you do not own. Long way. To answer your question. Sorry.
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D
No. But it was interesting, though, because if, say, if you were paparazzi and you were on the top of a big hill and they hadn't properly protected their privacy and you took a picture using a normal lens, then you're not. You don't have to abide by an NDA because you didn't sign it.
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E
Absolutely. Anytime you've been watching any of the news with the Kardashians or anybody going somewhere, you always see that they're not on the person's property or they're on the side of the road and they're taking pictures trying to get those shots. They cannot invade on the person's expectation of privacy.
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D
And Sarah, in planning these events and working with all these different types of high, high net worth individuals, you must have had some extravagant requests. What are some of the most memorable requests you've had?
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C
Do you know, to be really honest, at this level, the extravagance is in just bigger and more of everything that you would normally see. I mean, we do get some strange requests, you know, peacocks and elephants and it's not always possible to bring an elephant. We've built a winter wonderland on the side of a lake in St. Moritz in the winter for a welcome party. We've done all kinds of things. But if I can avoid animals, I quite like to because they're very unpredictable. I can't control them. And somebody like me, as you can imagine, I am a control freak. I need to know exactly what is going on, when, and nothing must happen that I'm not expecting. So children and animals do get in the way of that plan.
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D
Yeah. So an elephant taking a giant turd mid ceremony wouldn't be a good thing.
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C
It wouldn't be good. It's why I always recommend. I mean, there was a time when people wanted their dogs to be the ring bearers. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not with all those flowers and all.
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D
The smells of nature outside inside a church. What about some of those stunts that we hear about, you know, decoy dresses, sending people to try something on and letting the paps take a picture just to trick them. Do you do stuff like that?
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C
That can happen. It can also be that it wasn't a decoy. It was a legitimate shopping around for something. At this level, people are working in haute couture. You don't even need to ask the big haute couture houses to sign an NDA. They are never going to speak. They don't even speak after the person's worn the gown unless invited to. The money really in these events goes into more of everything. Headline artists singing, flying guests in, sometimes flying them in privately, hosting everybody, putting them in fabulous hotels. Everything you eat, drink, smell, touch, taste, everything is of the highest calibre. And that's kind of where the extravagance lies.
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D
Sarah, thank you so much for filling us in on those amazing events you plan. Thank you. Sean, thank you so much for coming on today.
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E
Thank you for having me. I appreciate you.
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D
That was celebrity wedding planner Sarah Hayward and our resident attorney Sean Kent. And that's it for Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds with me, Anoushka Mutandadawati. Keep sending in your questions or ideas for stories you'd like us to cover. You can get me on social media or on WhatsApp at 03306-78114. That's 03306-78114. Make sure you subscribe and turn on your push notifications so you never miss a thing.
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A
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