The Model City, Part 6: 'Who's Gonna Be Next?'

Summary

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Dig – Season 2, Episode 6: "Who's Gonna Be Next?"

Kentucky Center for Investigative Reporting | October 18, 2021
Host: Eleanor Klibanoff

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Episode Overview

This episode examines the deep fractures within Louisville in 2021 as the city grapples with unrest, distrust, and promises of police reform in the wake of Breonna Taylor’s killing and David McAtee’s death. Through community forums, leadership interviews, and on-the-ground voices, the episode questions whether the city is truly poised for meaningful change or simply reliving cycles of broken promises and systemic failures. With a focus on people affected and those still fighting for solutions, the narrative explores skepticism, pain, hope, and exhaustion within Louisville’s struggle to become a “model city” for police reform.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Tense State of Louisville’s Community (00:00–03:00)

• Community Forum Snapshot:
  Eleanor describes attending a charged community forum where citizens voiced frustrations at city leadership and law enforcement, revealing the city’s grief and distrust.

• “Chasm” Remains:
  Despite new leadership and reforms, the disconnect between police and community persists:
  "Despite all this, the anger, the frustration, the disconnect between the police and the community was still there. In fact, it seemed like the chasm between the two was wider than ever." (01:10–01:17)

• Emotional Testimonies:
  Antonio Brown, a community leader, passionately addresses economic inequity and police disconnect:

  “Y’all know what’s wrong in the community... If you got family, the only thing you can do is flip burgers. Then you tell them... how you supposed to feed your family?” (01:17–01:40)

2. Frustration with Leadership and Feeling Unheard (02:38–03:37)

• Bishop Dennis Lyons’ Weariness:
  Lyons, a longtime community advocate, expresses disappointment with city leaders’ inaccessibility:

  “This is the only time they get a chance to share with the mayor what’s on their hearts, and that tells us that he is not opening up his office. This is a result of the government not connecting with those protesters.” (02:38–02:56)

• City’s Broken State:
  The forum’s chaos exemplifies the city’s fractured state and the daunting task of repairing trust.

3. The Arrival and Background of Chief Erica Shields (03:37–05:14)

• Shields’ Controversial History:
  Louisville’s new police chief, Erica Shields, previously resigned as Atlanta’s chief after a police shooting; her reputation and reformist branding precede her in Louisville.

• Policing Model Shifts – In Theory:
  Shields claims a departure from drug enforcement to focusing on illegal guns and violent crimes, acknowledging past racial targeting:

  “I do absolutely not want to arrest my way out of anywhere... we are not to be out locking up young black men, period. That accomplishes nothing.” (06:21–06:37)

• Reiteration of Familiar Reform Language:
  Despite proposed shifts, much of Shields' language echoes previous reform promises dating back to the Obama-era 21st century policing model.

4. Interview: Mayor Greg Fischer on Missed Opportunities and Reform (08:46–14:25)

• Admissions and Regrets:
  Fischer admits his administration’s lack of sufficient police oversight:

  “My recommendation for another mayor is to constantly be doing third party deep reviews of your police force.” (09:32–09:41)
  “In retrospect, I do [regret not doing audits], and I don’t know if it would have solved anything or not.” (09:47–10:06)

• Doubts About Real Progress:
  Klibanoff pushes Fischer:

  • The same reforms have been promised since 2015.
  • The city’s challenges (officer shortages, lack of trust, escalating violence) have worsened.

• Mayor’s Optimism:
  Fischer insists Louisville can still be a “model city” and claims growing public consciousness about racism and the need for reform:

  “What I see the opportunity coming out of this is to be a model city in terms of police reform, police community legitimacy, co production of safety with the police in the community, and then racial equity as well.” (10:11–10:48)

• Klibanoff’s Skepticism:

  “Couldn’t you argue that Louisville was given the chance to be that model city ... and blew it?” (10:48–10:56)

5. New Department of Justice Scrutiny – and Reform Déjà Vu (12:41–14:25)

• Federal Investigation:
  The DOJ launches a civil investigation into LMPD’s practices—a severe sign federal intervention is now seen as necessary:

  “Today, the Justice Department is opening a civil investigation into the Louisville Jefferson county metro government.” (12:41–12:49)

  The DOJ is examining:

  • Search warrant procedures
  • Racial bias
  • Use of force
  • Protester treatment

• Reforms Promised—Again:
  The city touts reforms (early warning systems, civilian review boards, outside investigation of shootings), nearly all first floated in 2015.
  Many remain unfulfilled or have serious limitations (no subpoena power for review board, lack of transparency).

6. Community Voices: Hope, Skepticism, and Fatigue (16:01–24:15)

A. Officer Dexter Pitts’ Measured Optimism (16:01–16:30)

• On Chief Shields:

  “I'm an optimistic person with this. I think she's gonna do good things here. I really do. No sane person’s gonna come to do this job, so I respect her for coming here.” (16:20–16:30)

B. Bishop Lyons’ Evolving Perspective (17:21–19:17)

• Initial Distrust:
  Admits to prejudice against Shields due to the Atlanta shooting.
• Respect for Accountability:

  “She owned up to it was at fault, and she resigned. I said, oh, okay. Then I begin to gain respect for why she left.” (18:01–18:20)

• Signs of Progress:
  Lyons is now meeting regularly with police leadership, helping de-escalate situations—evidence of some new relationship-building.

C. Will Pitts: Grief and Exhaustion, Not Giving Up (20:03–24:15)

• Disillusion with “Trusting the Process”:

  “How long have we been trusting the process?... We stand to lose another hundred kids while y’all trying to figure it out. We stand to lose another 200 people at the rate it's going now. So something has to be done.” (20:16–21:02)

• Letting Go Under Duress:
  Will’s family closes Yaya’s, their West End restaurant, after losing family members to gun violence and police action. The storefront becomes a faded memorial:

  “We had to let it go. There was no more meaning, no more justifying. Now it’s like, whoa, it's two people in three months. Like, it’s time to let it go. And that was probably the hardest thing to do.” (22:08–22:26)

• Resigned, but Still Caring:
  Will continues to maintain the memorial but doubts federal intervention or city reforms will make a difference:

  “We just can't sit around and wait on who's to going be next, you know what I mean?” (23:25)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Antonio Brown at the Forum:

  “Y’all know what’s wrong in the community. Y’all know why they killing each other... You got 10 kids, how you supposed to feed your family?” (01:17–01:40)

• Bishop Dennis Lyons on the City’s Disconnect:

  “This is the only time they get a chance to share with the mayor what’s on their hearts, and that tells us that he is not opening up his office. This is a result of the government not connecting with those protesters.” (02:38–02:56)

• Chief Erica Shields (on enforcement priorities):

  “I do absolutely not want to arrest my way out of anywhere. And I tell my troops from day one we are not to be out locking up young black men, period. That accomplishes nothing.” (06:21–06:37)

• Mayor Greg Fischer (on lessons learned):

  “In retrospect, I do [regret not doing audits]... It is always good to be doing internal review and external review with your customers.” (09:47–10:06)

• Will Pitts (on endless promises):

  “I don’t want to wait forever... We stand to lose another 100 kids while y’all trying to figure it out.” (20:16–21:02) “We just can't sit around and wait on who's to going be next, you know what I mean?” (23:25)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00–01:40 – Community forum: public frustrations erupt.
• 03:37–05:14 – Erica Shields’ background & policing philosophy.
• 06:21–06:37 – Shields on stopping mass arrests of Black men.
• 08:46–10:11 – Interview with Mayor Greg Fischer: reflecting on missed opportunities.
• 12:41–14:25 – DOJ civil investigation and city’s repeated, incomplete reform promises.
• 16:01–19:17 – Dexter Pitts, Bishop Lyons: cautious optimism and relationship building.
• 20:03–24:15 – Will Pitts: skepticism, losses, and personal community ties.
• 23:25–23:49 – Will Pitts’ plea: “We just can't sit around and wait on who's to going be next...”

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Tone & Language

• Candid, emotional, and direct—especially from community leaders and citizens.
• Skepticism and exhaustion weigh heavily, but some persistent hope surfaces.
• Leadership voices blend optimism with hedging and admission of past mistakes.

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Conclusion

"Who's Gonna Be Next?" interrogates the effectiveness of Louisville’s police reform promises through the eyes of its citizens and leaders. Despite cycles of tragedy and repeated reform plans, the episode finds a city divided and skeptical, but still clinging for the potential of real change—should there finally be the will to listen and act.

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Transcript

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

It's February 2021, and I'm hustling across town late for a community forum. You probably get this by now, but Louisville loves a community forum. This one was a chance for the clergy to meet the city's new police Chief. By early 2021, a lot had changed in Louisville. Police Chief Steve Conrad had been fired. The nightly protests had died down after months. No one had been charged for killing Brianna Taylor, but one officer was facing charges of wanton endangerment for firing bullets into Taylor's neighbor's apartment. And two more officers had been. The city settled a lawsuit with Taylor's family for $12 million, the largest settlement in city history, and agreed to a slew of reforms. Metro council approved a new short term union contract that raised officer salaries. Now, finally, a new officer at LMPD will make what they would have made in 2004, taking inflation into account. They hired a new chief who Mayor Greg Fisher called a reform minded leader committed to the ideals of 21st century policing. But despite all this, the anger, the frustration, the disconnect between the police and the community was still there. In fact, it seemed like the chasm between the two was wider than ever, which I saw firsthand when I got to this community forum. This is the thing.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

Y' all know what's wrong in the community. Y' all know why they killing each other in the community. There's no jobs in the community unless you flipping burgers. If you got family, the only thing you can do is flip burgers. Then you tell them, oh, you know, supposed to sell drugs. How when you got 10 kids, excuse me, I'm in the church. You got 10 kids, how you supposed to feed your family?

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Antonio Brown was standing among the pews, yelling at the city officials on stage and in the audience. The mayor was sitting in the front row of the church. He was the focus of a lot of the anger. People joined Brown in airing their grievances loudly and emotionally. The pastor of the church, who also works for the city, took a mic and started yelling back at Brown. Through the throngs of people, I spotted Bishop Dennis Lyons. Lyons was that community policing true believer, the pastor whose funeral home had buried David McAtee. He was sitting in the second row alone. His head was in his hands. His eyes were closed. It was the first and only time I've ever seen him look truly weary. Lyons has spent a lot of his life trying to get people to come out to these forums, to be as passionate and civically engaged as he is. But he's disappointed that the community is still having to cause a commotion to be heard by city leadership. I talk to him after.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

This is the only time they get a chance to share with the mayor what they own their hearts, and that tells us that he is not opening up his office. This is a result of the government not connecting with those protesters

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

sitting in the pews. Watching this scene unfold, it really sunk in for me just how shattered this city was and how much it would take to glue it all back together. I also couldn't keep my eyes off one of the people sitting on stage. She was, by my recollection, the only other white woman there was. She didn't say much as the event devolved into a yelling match. Just watched as the scab was ripped right off this city's barely healing wound. I had so many questions about what she was thinking at that moment. LMPD has not made Erica Shields, the new chief, available for an interview with us. So we can't actually know. But if I was her, I would have been thinking, what the hell have I gotten myself into? This is DIG Season two, the Model City. From the Kentucky center for Investigation, Investigative Reporting and Newsy, I'm Eleanor Klibanoff. Louisville's League of Women Voters had more luck than I did with Chief Shields. She sat down with them recently for a conversation on LMPD policing reform. Shields was interviewed by Wayne Tucson, a doctor who also does health segments on local tv.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

Chief Erica Shields joined the Louisville Metropolitan Police Department after serving as the chief of police for the Atlanta Police Department. Chief Shields has been an outspoken leader

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

in police reform after 25 years with the Atlanta Police Department, including three and a half as chief. Shields took the helm of LMPD in January 2021.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

In addition, Chief Fields recognized the critical nature of engaging the communities in which the police serve and was committed to listening to and valuing feedback in making decisions.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Shields may have been everything Tuckson was describing, but if people in Louisville knew her name before she got to town, it was probably because she resigned from the Atlanta Police Department in June 2020, the same month Chief Steve Conrad was fired from LMPD. Shields also left over a police shooting. At the height of the protests, an Atlanta police officer shot and killed 27 year old Rayshard Brooks in a Wendy's parking lot.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

If you will join me in welcoming Chief Erica Shields. Thank you, doctor.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

That bio is about five minutes too long.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

We'll work on that. Well, you should do five minutes more or less. Great things right now. My car is being towed.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Okay, fine. I can Sort of see why this guy gets an interview and I don't. At this event, Shields discussed her policing philosophy, some of which deviated from past practice at lmpd, while Chief Conrad had emphasized what he called a people, places, narcotics strategy. The big thing for me is we're not going to be place based. We're not going to go after narcotics. Shields said the department was going to focus on getting illegal guns and violent criminals off the street. She said she was particularly sensitive to the history of targeting black neighborhoods with aggressive drug enforcement. I do absolutely not want to arrest my way out of anywhere. And I tell my troops from day one we are not to be out locking up young black men, period. That accomplishes nothing. But a lot of what Shields was talking about at this policing reform event sounded pretty familiar. She said traffic stops had declined significantly in Louisville after a series of high profile incidents, referring to Taeyeon Lee, among others. But Shields said she was bringing them back. Traffic is critical to keeping a city safe, whether it's speeding, DUI for people who are trafficking narcotics, stolen cars, carjacking. You think the criminals don't know. If the police aren't stopping them, they know before you do, she said. They were going to emphasize accountability for officers and fair and equitable policing for all communities. I should police the same way in an affluent neighborhood as I would in a neighborhood that is lower income, Shield said. At the heart of all of this was relationship building, community policing, getting officers out of their cars. And I really hope that we can get our staffing to a point that we can have more of that consistent community outreach because it's so important. If all of this sounds familiar, it should. Louisville wasn't the only city that was recognized way back in 2016 for its commitment to 21st century policing. Louisville was one of 15 cities and Atlanta was another. I followed Shields out of this event. Do you still, like, sort of stand by the tenets of 21st century policing that you brought to it? Yeah. Oh, it was fantastic. It was President Obama's task force on it and very relevant. And I hope they need to come out with a 2.0. What would be different in 2.0? It would be further inroads in how use of force training is done. There'd be more along the lines of transparency. I mean, there's definitely a lot has changed in the last, what, six years do you think that you instituted successfully in Atlanta? I think we instituted a number of things successfully, but it's not reasonable to think that things are just going to go well there's going to be issues you have to correct. There's going to be things that happen that you just wish they didn't. How do you navigate out of it?

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

How do you handle it?

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

So there you go. What aspects of you're 21st century? All right. But thank you. But we, we are hoping to get a longer interview with you to talk about 21st century policing specifically. Thank you. We never got that longer interview with Shields, but we did get a chance to sit down with Mayor Greg Fisher, who oversaw the period of policing reform that we've been looking at. Happy Derby week.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

Well, it's a little different.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Greg Fisher has been mayor of Louisville since 2011 or 11. Kentucky derbies. He's a Democrat from a prominent Louisville family who was originally elected on the strength of his business experience. You know those fountain soda machines at gas stations or restaurants? He and another guy invented one of those when he was in his mid-20s. Now Fisher's in his mid-60s, a successful entrepreneur, business owner and investor. And at the very end of his tenure as mayor of Louisville. I've interviewed Fisher several times, mostly at press conferences after public forums. But in April, I got my first chance to sit down with him, one on one, to talk about 21st century policing. He acknowledged that his administration hadn't always exercised enough oversight of the police department.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

My recommendation for another mayor is to constantly be doing third party deep reviews of your police force.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Do you regret not doing those intensive audits? Do you regret not doing that in 2015?

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

In retrospect, I do, and I don't know if it would have solved anything or not. But again, as a business person, it is always good to be doing internal review and external review with your customers. We put in something that did not produce good enough results for us to guide us forward. That maybe would have circumvented some of these tragedies.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

But Fisher said he's never been more optimistic about this city's future.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

What I see the opportunity coming out of this is to be a model city in terms of police reform, police community legitimacy, co production of safety with the police in the community, and then racial equity as well. So that's our goal. That's what I'm going to continue to work on to the last day in office. The consciousness that's been erased in this country around race and racism, 1960s, that white America had a chance to get that right and totally blew it. You know, my hope, and I'll fight with every fiber in my body, is to make sure in the 2000s that does not happen.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

But couldn't you argue that Louisville was given the chance to be that model city, to rethink all of this stuff, to be on the vanguard of all of this in 2015 and blew it?

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

No, I think that's a really. No, that's a gotcha kind of thing. It's because things happen in life. No matter how perfect you are, no matter how hard you try, it's things outside of your control.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

It's not just my opinion that things aren't working in Louisville. In January, consulting firm Hilliard Heinz published a top to bottom review of the police department. It confirmed so much of what citizens and police officers have been saying for years. Black people are disproportionately stopped by the police. Officers are insufficiently trained on new policies. There are gaps in the department's accountability systems. 75% of officers say they would leave the department if they could. With all these challenges, I had to ask the mayor, but what is going to be different this time around from 2015? It sounds like the exact same plan.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

What is different now with LMPD?

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Hillard Heinz, top to bottom, you're 200 officers down. You are, you know, you've got 75% of your officers say they want to leave. You've got no community police trust. Seems like you got a homicide spike unlike what we even saw in 2014. Seems like things are worse than they were.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

Okay, so that's the negative side. What's on the corrective action side. You've got Hillard Heinz, top to bottom review. You've got tremendous community interest in improving the police department. You've got a very strong, reform minded chief. With Chief Erica Shields that's come in, we've got the Department of Justice that's helping us identify where our problems are.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

You had all of that in 2015. Louisville did have a lot of those same things back in 2015, including technical assistance and coaching from the Department of Justice. Back then, the feds came to Louisville to cheerlead the city's efforts to reform itself. That is not why they are here now in 2021.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

Today, the Justice Department is opening a civil investigation into the Louisville Jefferson county metro government.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

That's Merrick Garland, the US Attorney general.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

To determine whether LMPD engages in a pattern or practice of violations of the Constitution or federal law.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Garland said they're looking at the department's search warrant procedures, allegations of racial bias, stop searches and seizures, and use of force against peaceful protesters. This is one of the most severe steps the federal government can Take a sign that they believe a local police department may require federal intervention to ensure they're not violating their citizens civil rights. It's also what 21st century policing was supposed to prevent. This model was a roadmap to policing reform, which would help departments shape up before things got to a crisis point that didn't happen. And now Louisville seems primed to just try the same thing again. I guess I'm just not sure what the. What's meaningfully different now other than the fact that, like, we had a tragedy.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

Oh, I really disagree with you there. I mean, do you think America is meaningfully different today in terms of concerns around racism and addressing racism and understanding where police reform is part of that? It's very different.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Yes, but different in part because police departments didn't start this process in 2014. Right?

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

Yeah. So you're answering your question. That's the opportunity right now. There is more awareness and knowledge of the need for reform and change now than I think anytime throughout my lifetime. And so will we be smart enough to seize that? I know here in Louisville we'll be working on that, to do it every day.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

In a subsequent statement, Gene Porter, the mayor's director of communications, reiterated that the city still supports the tenets of 21st century policing and said, we are committed to community policing, to building greater trust between LMPD and the larger community they are sworn to serve and protect. She pointed to a number of reforms the city has promised in the wake of the Breonna Taylor shooting and protests. The city said they were finally going to institute that early warning system they'd claimed for years to have. They've asked the Kentucky State Police to investigate police shootings, have created a civilian review board, and are going to offer incentives to get officers to live in the city. Do you know what all those reforms have in common? They were all reforms LMPD considered implementing six years ago with 21st century policing. And even now, some of those promises are still falling short. The civilian review board has been criticized as insufficient because it wasn't granted subpoena power by the state legislature. The outside agency investigating police shootings has proven less transparent than LMPD was. And that early warning system, it still hasn't been activated. But still, some people in Louisville are willing to believe that this time could be different, or at least aren't willing to give up yet. On a recent Tuesday afternoon, LMPD Officer Dexter Pitts was standing down at Jefferson Square park, the epicenter of the Breonna Taylor protest movement. The city has promised to Put up a permanent marker in the square. These days, it's pretty quiet. Dexter is doing one of his favorite parts of the job, chatting people up.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

Any luck?

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

He directs a woman to the proper building to pay her taxes.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

I gotta give the government their pound of flesh, right?

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Dexter returned to LMPD amid the protests last June. The last year has taken a toll on him. He's working a ton of overtime and watching officers flee the department. But he likes what he's heard from Chief Shields so far.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

I'm an optimistic person with this. I think she's gonna do good things here. I really do. No sane person's gonna come to do this job, so I respect her for coming here.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

That's a compliment, I think. While he's standing out in the square, a car pulls up, and out pops Bishop. Dennis Lyons.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

Pitts. What's going on, Bishop? Pitch, pitch. Tell me about it, buddy. Don't hide now.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Hey.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

He's like my brother. I mean, we go back, don't we?

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

We do.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

I was telling her. I was like, what, 10 years? Oh, my God, man. Yes, yes, yes. We were like, what? The book says the police and the community supposed to be like. If every policeman had his demeanor and every citizen had mine, it would be a team. It really would.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

They're just shooting the breeze for a while. And Lyons shares with Dexter that he's been frustrated by the lack of relationship building between the clergy and Chief Shields.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

So Erica never did get a chance to talk to the from preachers, and we never did officially get a chance to connect. So the preachers and the chief still don't know.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Lyons started off really skeptical of Chief Shields because of the Rayshard Brooks shooting.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

I came with that prejudice against Erica Shields. So when I first seen it, it was like, she ain't right.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

But Lyon says he began to compare her record to former LMPD Chief Conrad's. The protesters had wanted Conrad to take responsibility for Breonna Taylor's death, fire the officers, and resign.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

And so when I looked at Erica, I said, she owned up to. It was at fault, and she resigned. I said, oh, okay. Then I begin to gain respect for why she left.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Lyons has seen several police chiefs come and go in Louisville. He's been doing this work for decades. Most people would have given up years ago, but this is definitely a compliment. Lyons is not most people. He really believes this time might be different.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

Back then, 21st century, there was nothing on the table as far as the black community was concerned to ensure that the 21st century police would be Initiated. We just had the word. And on this table, we got 300, almost 300 some days. We got broken windows. We got the courthouse windows. I bought up businesses. Tourism has gone. We got on this table. When you say, yes, we are interested. Yes, you are interested.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

He's starting to see some positive changes. Lyons has started regularly meeting with the second division major for breakfast. He's been called out to homicide scenes to de escalate crowds like he's always wanted. He's trying again and hoping that this time it might work. But for a lot of people, it's not so simple. Like Will Pitts, he's lost so much. His friend David McAtee killed by law enforcement. Marvin McAtee killed by gun violence. You can see the cost of this city's failures weighing on his shoulders. On a weeknight last April, a few days after the feds announced their investigation of lmpd, the Department of Justice hosted a zoom call to explain how the community can participate in the investigative process.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

And we want to hear everything that you have to say about lmpd. It could be things that are negative, things that are positive all across the spectrum.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Will Pitts is in his basement watching the meeting with his wife.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

Chris ask that you just kind of trust the process. Trust the process one more time. You know, raise your voice one more time. Wow. So that we can. How long have we been trusting the process?

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Will and Chris are having a hard time being optimistic about all these big promises coming out of the computer screen.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

I don't want to wait forever. You know what I mean? Investigations this type have started years ago before public announcement. And we. She want me to cut y', all, but we stand to lose another hundred kids while y' all trying to figure it out. We stand to lose another 200 people at the rate is going now. So something has to be done.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Today, Chris encourages him to reach out to the investigators, share his experience with lmpd.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

You gonna go up there? You can't talk to talk. You don't walk the walk. I'm not going up her. Hell no. But you can meet with them and tell them your story.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Even after moving out of the neighborhood, Will Pitts always kept one foot in the community. That made him visiting family, mentoring young people for years, helping out at Yaya's. He coaches basketball team. Millennium is made up of boys from around the city. He's trying to help them find their path to success through basketball, just like he did. But the last 18 months has shaken that relationship with the West End.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

It's time that I Not abandon the community, but wash my hands of foolishness, right? That's in the community. So in order for me to move on, I had to close the chapter. You know, I had to turn the page on that.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

The family made the difficult decision to close Yaya's.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

It came to the point where, you know, we had to let it go. There was no more meaning, no more justifying. Now it's like, whoa, it's two people in three months. Like, it's time to let it go. And that was probably the hardest thing to do.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

That little storefront restaurant sits empty now. On a fence out front, there's handmade memorials for David and Marvin. Sun, faded signs, mementos and keepsakes. Will goes out there sometimes in daylight hours to keep the memorials tidy. He sweeps up, throws out any garbage and organizes the memories.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

You know, everything that's ever been given and left, you know, we try to keep it around because whoever left it, you know, he meant something to that person. So, you know, somebody maybe see this hanging and say, man, that's my.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

You know, it's a way to stay connected to this place. A place that once gave him so much joy and now represents a complicated, painful period in his life. No one has been charged in David McAtee's death. Marvin's remains unsolved, devastating.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

I don't know if you ever lost a loved one, but, you know, it doesn't feel good, especially prematurely. We just can't sit around and wait on who's to going be next, you know what I mean?

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

There's been so much death, so much destruction, so much unnecessary pain and loss.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

And the saddest part is, you know, it's. You know, them two deaths is just one of many, you know what I mean? And it's tragic that this is a reality, you know, in our community. I pray and hope, man, we do better and get better.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Will never ended up talking to the Department of Justice. He doesn't see the point. He says federal intervention isn't going to change anything. The city making big reform promises again isn't going to change anything. The only thing that's going to change anything is people. People who've suffered because of this city's failures. People who stepped into their power in 2020. People who aren't willing to wait for the city to fix itself. People like him. Because Will Pitts is still here, and he's still trying to make Louisville the city. McAtee believed it could be the city. He believes it could be the city it should be. This season of dig was reported by Eleanor Klibanoff with the Kentucky center for Investigative Reporting and Kerry Cochran, Karen Rodriguez, Maya Rosenfeld and Maren Machlis with Newsy. It was produced by Eleanor Klibanoff edited by Kate Howard, Lara Ellis and Ellen Weiss Data reporting by Rosie Chima and Marc Fahin production assistance from Rip Rinehart and Chris Julen Field producing by Zack Coussin, Mai Nolasco Carranza, Tyler Franklin and Chelsea Ketchum. Kojun Toshiro created our theme music with Ryan Marsh. Fact checking by Kelvin Bias. Alex Cooper is our intern. Special thanks to Jasmine Demers, Ryan Van Velzer, Jess Clark, Jared Bennett and Jake Ryan. We received support for this project from the Fund for Investigative Journalism.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach?

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families.

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

With greenlight, you can set up chores,

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

automate allowance and keep an eye on

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

your kids spending with real time notifications,

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their

[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

kids are learning about money with guardrails in place.

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

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[Interviewees and Narrators (including Antonio Brown, Bishop Dennis Lyons, Chief Erica Shields, Mayor Greg Fisher, Dexter Pitts, Will Pitts, and others)]

The choice is simple, a role that

[Eleanor Klibanoff]

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