Dan Pink: What Society Gets Wrong About Work

Summary

Digital Disruption with Geoff Nielson: Detailed Summary of “Dan Pink: What Society Gets Wrong About Work”

Release Date: March 31, 2025

In the latest episode of Digital Disruption with Geoff Nielson, hosted by Info-Tech Research Group, renowned author Dan Pink delves into the intricate landscape of the future of work. Recorded live at InfoTech Live in Las Vegas, this insightful conversation explores the misconceptions society holds about work, the evolving nature of organizational structures, and the pivotal role of technology in shaping our professional lives.

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I. Introduction: Setting the Stage

The episode begins with Geoff Nielson introducing Dan Pink, a seven-time New York Times bestselling author known for his works on human psychology and business motivation, including Drive and To Sell as Human. Geoff highlights the spontaneity of their conversation, as Dan shared fresh insights during his keynote at InfoTech Live without prior sharing of his presentation materials.

Notable Quote:

“I don't think we have a very precise notion of what to do together or separately at work. Perhaps even bigger, what do we do synchronously versus asynchronously.”
— Dan Pink [01:55]

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II. The Current Era: A Sorting Out Process

Dan Pink characterizes the present times as a "sorting out process," where fundamental questions about work dynamics are being addressed amidst uncertainty and rapid change. He emphasizes the need to experiment and navigate through this ambiguity rather than relying on rigid philosophies.

Key Points:

• Uncertainty in Work Dynamics: Organizations are grappling with defining collaborative versus individual tasks.
• Synchronous vs. Asynchronous Work: Over-reliance on real-time communication tools like Microsoft Teams and Zoom, despite evidence supporting hybrid approaches for tasks like brainstorming.

Notable Quote:

“We have to do stuff and try stuff, and by doing stuff and trying stuff, we'll be able to find the answers.”
— Dan Pink [03:09]

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III. The Quest for Meaningful Work

A central theme of the discussion revolves around achieving meaningful work in an era of constant change. Dan Pink asserts that autonomy is crucial for individuals seeking purpose in their professional lives. He advocates for organizations to create environments where employees can experiment and find significance in their roles.

Key Points:

• Autonomy as a Catalyst: Empowering employees to make choices enhances their sense of meaning.
• Progress as Meaning: Daily progress on significant tasks fosters a sense of accomplishment and purpose.

Notable Quote:

“Having an organization that is not only great but actually good, that is doing something more valuable, autonomy is a big part of a search for meaning.”
— Dan Pink [04:30]

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IV. Leadership and Modeling Behavior

Dan Pink underscores the importance of leadership in cultivating a positive organizational culture. He highlights that leaders must model desired behaviors, such as admitting mistakes and taking regular breaks, to encourage similar practices among team members.

Key Points:

• Leading by Example: Leaders’ actions have a more profound impact than their words.
• Vulnerability Enhances Trust: Sharing mistakes and lessons learned fosters a safe environment for team growth.

Notable Quotes:

“Kids listen a lot less to what you say, and they watch a lot more to what you do.”
— Dan Pink [06:03]

“When you reveal mistakes or vulnerabilities, people actually think more of you, and it encourages openness.”
— Dan Pink [07:08]

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V. Burnout and Structural Challenges

The conversation shifts to the pervasive issue of burnout, exacerbated by organizational pressures to do more with less. Dan Pink discusses how structural factors, such as inadequate childcare support and lean organizational models, contribute significantly to employee stress and exhaustion.

Key Points:

• Lean Organizations: Modern companies are operating with fewer resources, increasing employee workload.
• Parental Burnout: Parents face heightened stress due to insufficient societal support systems.

Notable Quote:

“Organizations are pretty lean, especially compared to 20 years ago. People have the sense of doing more with less, which adds to burnout.”
— Dan Pink [07:58]

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VI. The Evolving Office: Hybrid as the Future

Addressing the future of workspaces, Dan Pink forecasts a permanent shift towards hybrid models, blending remote and in-office work. He argues that while remote work boosts productivity, it may hinder creativity, which often thrives in collaborative physical environments. Pink envisions a reimagined office space that fosters both individual focus and creative collaboration.

Key Points:

• Hybrid Work Model: Balancing days at the office with remote work to optimize both productivity and creativity.
• Redefining Office Spaces: Offices will evolve to support dynamic interactions, moving away from traditional cubicles.

Notable Quotes:

“I don't think we're going to get to a world where most organizations are going to be mostly remote.”
— Dan Pink [10:19]

“We’re essentially entering a world of what’s called permanent hybrid.”
— Dan Pink [10:55]

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VII. Embracing Action: The Power of Regret and Taking Chances

Dan Pink explores the concept of regret, particularly how inaction often leads to deeper regrets than taking risks. He encourages individuals and organizations to adopt a more action-oriented approach, believing that acting is a form of thinking. This mindset promotes faster learning and adaptability in rapidly changing environments.

Key Points:

• Regrets of Inaction: People often regret not taking opportunities more than taking risks.
• Action as Learning: Engaging in actions leads to experiential learning and innovation.

Notable Quotes:

“Regrets of inaction easily outnumber regrets of action. The lesson is to recalibrate our risk aversion.”
— Dan Pink [15:09]

“Acting is a form of thinking. When you act, you learn faster.”
— Dan Pink [16:03]

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VIII. Technology and Optimism for the Future

The discussion then shifts to the transformative impact of technology, including smartphones, social media, and artificial intelligence (AI). Dan Pink expresses optimism about technology’s potential to level the playing field, providing broader access to information and creative tools. He acknowledges the challenges but maintains a hopeful outlook about technological advancements driving positive societal change.

Key Points:

• Technological Advancements: Rapid developments in AI and digital tools are revolutionizing work and creativity.
• Optimism in Innovation: Despite downsides, technology enhances connectivity and access to resources.

Notable Quotes:

“I'm pretty optimistic about it. It's transformative in the same way the Internet has been.”
— Dan Pink [22:08]

“The leveling of the playing field in terms of access to information and creative tools is incredible.”
— Dan Pink [22:31]

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IX. Societal Reflections and Future Perspectives

Dan Pink reflects on societal issues, such as persistent poverty in wealthy nations and the potential future judgment of current work practices. He anticipates that future generations will critique today’s office-centric work models and societal structures, advocating for more humane and flexible approaches.

Key Points:

• Persistent Poverty: Despite overall wealth, significant segments in affluent countries still face poverty.
• Future Critique: Upcoming generations may question why traditional office models persist when alternative, more meaningful work structures exist.

Notable Quotes:

“Our grandchildren will say, wait a second, you made people go to this office? Or we open the house every single day. What did you do there?”
— Dan Pink [19:55]

“We have billions of people leave poverty, yet we still have people living in poverty in wealthy countries.”
— Dan Pink [20:22]

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X. Conclusion: Navigating the Future of Work

As the conversation wraps up, Dan Pink reiterates the necessity of embracing change and fostering environments that prioritize meaningful work, creativity, and well-being. He emphasizes that the journey towards the future of work involves continuous experimentation and adaptation, ensuring that both organizations and individuals can thrive in an ever-evolving landscape.

Notable Quote:

“If you think of it as making slow and steady progress toward making things more meaningful, then I think it's actually quite robust for organizations and for individuals.”
— Dan Pink [05:23]

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Final Thoughts:

This episode of Digital Disruption offers a profound exploration of the future of work, challenging existing norms and advocating for a more thoughtful, balanced approach to professional life. Dan Pink’s insights provide a roadmap for organizations aiming to adapt to digital transformation while nurturing meaningful and sustainable work environments.

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Relevant Resources:

• Info-Tech Live Las Vegas: Upcoming conference with complimentary tickets available.
• Books by Dan Pink: Drive, To Sell as Human, and more on human psychology and business motivation.

For those interested in the evolving dynamics of work and the impact of technology on organizations, this episode serves as an essential listen, packed with actionable insights and forward-thinking perspectives.

Transcript

[Host]

Hey everyone, we've got a really special episode for you today. I had a chance to sit down with seven times New York Times bestselling author Dan Pink at InfoTech Live in Las Vegas to talk about the future of work and what's coming next. If you don't know Dan, he's written two number one bestsellers, Drive and To Sell as Human, and a whole pile of others on human psychology and motivation in the context of business. He's got a whole pile of other accolades I won't list here, but, but you can look them up if you're interested. If you don't know, InfoTech Live, it's a big awesome conference or even sort of an anti conference for IT leaders. Anyway, the next one is in Vegas in June. There's still complimentary tickets, so check that out if you're interested in the description. Love to see you there. But back to my conversation with Dan Pink. As I mentioned, he was doing a keynote on the future of work and I had the opportunity to interview him right after. Now what made it extra fun is that like most keynote speakers, Dan didn't share his presentation in advance and it was all new material. So while he was talking, I was holed up at the back of the conference, frantically taking notes on his talk and what I wanted to ask him and got back to our studio just in time to start the interview. My favorite part of Dan's presentation on what comes next was his courage in saying I don't know. And if someone tells you they do, they're lying. He said that there's too much that's changed, too much uncertainty, and now isn't the time to philosophize is to get out there and just try things. Anyway, it's a really cool conversation. Check it out, let me know what you think. And if you like it, don't forget to like and subscribe. Check it out.

[Jeff]

Daniel, thanks so much for being here.

[Dan Pink]

Thanks for having me. Jeff.

[Jeff]

Loved. First off, I have to say I loved the presentation. Lot to think about, lot to digest and lots of just, you know, moving pieces that, you know, kind of draw you in. You know, one of the things that, you know, you got me thinking about was you talked about, you know, this great sort happening right now, that this time of unsorted and what that means. Do you want to maybe just start by talking a little bit about that?

[Dan Pink]

Yeah, yeah. I think that, you know, one of the things that I've detected just from talking to people out there in the world and just from following the news is this sense that things are kind of upside down, things are uncertain, that the floor on which we're standing is kind of wobbly. And my theory of the case is that what's happening right now is a sorting out process, right? And what we're sorting out are some fundamental questions about work. So among the things that I think we're sorting out are pretty important things like what do we do together, what do we do separately, where do we collaborate, where do we do things individually? I don't think we have a very precise notion of that. Perhaps even bigger, what do we do synchronously? What do we do asynchronously? To me, we're over indexed on synchronous. We think that everybody has to be together on Microsoft Teams or Zoom all the time, when in fact there's some very good evidence, like in brainstorming that some kind of more deliberate hybrid is better, where you go off and generate ideas on your own and then you come together synchronously to do things. I think we have some big questions about what are offices for, what do they look like, who goes there, what is the physical architecture of them, where are they located? I think we have in some ways existential questions about what are companies for?

[Audience Member 1]

Right?

[Dan Pink]

And so, and you know, as much as we want to understand, as much as we want to know the answer to these questions, I don't think we, I don't think we will. I think we have to kind of navigate our way to them. We have to do stuff and try stuff, and by doing stuff and trying stuff, we'll be able to find the answers, right?

[Jeff]

And it's funny you say that because, you know, you ask these big questions and you put up your hand and said, I don't know the answers. But as you talked through your presentation, it kind of felt like you do know some of the answers. And I was, you know, I was getting some really interesting insights from that. To me, one of the themes of your presentation was the notion of meaningful work, right? And how we can do meaningful work. And, you know, I kind of sense that one of the drivers of why we're missing that is because in this great sword and trying things, nobody seems to know anymore what's meaningful. And let's just try things and see what sticks. And so there's been this kind of epidemic of just maybe do this. We don't know. So how do we, as leaders or as individuals, how do we fight back against that and focus on the meaning?

[Dan Pink]

Well, I mean, I think that people, I mean, meeting is an elusive concept for sure. Okay. So. So I don't think we can all. I don't think it. Meaning is like, we don't know the meaning of our work or the meaning of our lives in the way that we know the square root of 144. Okay. So.

[Audience Member 1]

But.

[Dan Pink]

But I think that we can. We can approach it and. And when we have some evidence about what kind of. What are the conditions in which people can approach that. Fact number one is. Is having an organization that is not only great, but that is actually good, that is doing something more valuable. Autonomy is a big part of a search for meaning. Like, I can't tell you. Here's what. Here's. Here's exactly what you need to do to find your meaning. If you just follow me exactly, you're gonna. You're gonna. You're gonna find meaning. And I think it does require, though, some experimentation as well. And so. But also, I think a lot of us have come face to face because of COVID because of other things with darker things, like mortality. Sure. And. And I think it's actually very healthy. The thing is that we're not going to know the answer in any clear way. But if you think of it as making slow and steady progress toward making things more meaningful, then I think it's actually quite root for organizations and for individuals.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Jeff]

And it sounds like some of the tactics you put up there are actually tools we can use to potentially seek out that meaning.

[Dan Pink]

I mean, one of the things I talked about is the importance of making progress each day. And I do think that when you make progress each day or when you see the progress you're making, that can confer some sense of meaning, that people derive meaning from simply some meaning, at least from simply moving forward on something that is significant or important.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jeff]

You said something that I picked up on that I really liked a little bit later in your presentation about, you know, modeling some of these uncomfortable behaviors as leaders. Can you. Can you talk a little bit more about that and maybe the role that leaders have in instilling some of these values and practices?

[Dan Pink]

Yeah. I mean, I sort of feel silly saying it because it seems to me so obvious, and it's certainly obvious to anybody who's been a parent.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

And that essentially, if you're a parent, your kids barely listen to you.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

I think my view is kids listen a lot less than parents think, and they watch a lot more than parents think. So they listen a lot less to what you say, and they watch a lot more to what you do. And so modeling the behavior that you see is a wise strategy. This is not a revelation, but it's sometimes absent among leaders, so I'll give you some examples of it. So if you think about something like mistakes.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

Or even regrets or something like that, I think it's very healthy for leaders to tell, to get their team and say, here's a regret that I have or here's a mistake that I made. Here's what I learned from it, and here's what I'm going to do about it. And the fear that many people have is that by revealing that mistake or revealing that vulnerability or by revealing that error or regret, people will think less of you. And we have some pretty good evidence that that's wrong, that people actually think more.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Jeff]

It's backwards. And then.

[Dan Pink]

And as a consequence of that, people feel safe to talk about some of their mistakes. And when we talk about our mistakes, when we derive lessons from them, everybody becomes better. So I think that's one area I mentioned the importance of taking breaks and seeing breaks as part of our performance. And, you know, we can exhort that all we want. We can say, I can show you all the charts and graphs and the data about that, but the people downstream in organizations are not going to be taking regular breaks unless the boss is taking breaks.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

But if boss takes a break, if she models it, then you have a fighting chance.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Jeff]

Did you, you know, as you were researching this or, you know, talking to leaders about it, you know, to what degree, if at all, did. Did burnout come into play in this? Because, you know, I, at least anecdotally, you know, since we've done this kind of great move out of the office, like burnout seems to be something we're hearing more about.

[Dan Pink]

Yeah, I think that it's, I think that burnout is mood.

[Jeff]

It's tough.

[Dan Pink]

Burnout has many, many parents. Correct. Or better metaphor, burnout grows from many, many routes. So I think that some of it has to do. I think there's a little bit of evidence that parents are more burnt out than people who aren't parents. And part of that is a structural problem, especially in the US Maybe a little less so in Canada, where we don't have the mechanisms in place for childcare. So people, so parents are. Surgeon General of the US Just issued a report talking about how incredibly stressed out parents are. Okay. And so I think that that's, I think so you have the cohort of people who are in the workplace and are parents. I think they're innately stressed out. And I think a lot, some of it has to do with some structural problems.

[Audience Member 1]

Sure.

[Dan Pink]

So that's, that, that's, that's one thing. Organizations are pretty lean, especially compared to 20 years ago.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

And so if you were to, if we were to go to this crowd right here, Jeff.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

And say, how many of you in your organizations are trying to do more with less?

[Jeff]

I think everybody, 100%. Every, every hand in the room goes exactly, exactly.

[Dan Pink]

So people have the sense of doing more with less. I think the stress of just general uncertainty, whether it's political uncertainty, whether it is technological uncertainty with AI, I think that all these things collect and people are burning out, which is one reason why we need to have regular, systematic brakes. But I think it could be, ultimately be a structural issue deeper down.

[Audience Member 1]

Right, right.

[Jeff]

It makes sense. You know, as we think about that, you know, the brakes thing, you know, keeps coming back to me, and I love that. And I love, you know, there's sort of another theme, I guess, of like, it doesn't always have to be more with less.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Jeff]

We sort of have to give ourselves permission to work at kind of a cadence that, you know, that works for us. With the brakes piece specifically, I mean, a light bulb kind of went off for me because it was there that you made me start thinking about the value of the office. Because at the office, you know, I feel like people naturally take more breaks because there's other people there.

[Dan Pink]

Go out for coffee.

[Audience Member 1]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

Yeah. So, I mean, from your perspective, you talked about it a little bit, but, you know, I know you're uncomfortable answering like, you know, what is, what is the value of the office holistically, but, you know, I'm not. I'd love to hear more about that.

[Dan Pink]

My view is that I don't think we're going to get to a world where most organizations are going to be mostly remote.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

I think so.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

I don't, I don't think that's how human beings are constituted.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

That said, I don't think we're going to get to a world where everybody is doing heads down work at a cubicle by themselves. What we're going to, my view is that, and I think we're heading there. I think we're, we're could be there in spite of some of the things that companies are doing to quote, unquote, crack down on remote workers.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

I think we're actually essentially entering a world of what permanent hybrid.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

Where we're going to spend and we're sorting that out.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

What kind of work is better done at home by yourself? What kind of work is better done in an office with other people?

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

We're going to, and we're going to sort that out. And I actually think that in a, in a couple of years we won't even call it hybrid anymore.

[Audience Member 1]

Right?

[Dan Pink]

It's like, that's work.

[Jeff]

That's work.

[Dan Pink]

But that's, that's what we're at. So I don't, I'm not, I don't think that fully remote for everybody all the time is necessarily that great of a, great of a deal, Right? I think we have some evidence of that in, I think there are, there are some new studies out showing that remote work is great for productivity. It's less great for creativity.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

And so we want to be productive, but we also want to be creative. And I think in many cases we're creative when we're face to face in person with other people.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

And you don't want to sacrifice that.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

So, so I, you know, but again, you know, you're an interior architect who knows a little bit about business. You should be cleaning up.

[Audience Member 1]

Right?

[Dan Pink]

Because we need to rethink what an office is.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

And my conscience, that, like in many cases the legacy offices are going to do a slow job and a bad job of retrofitting that, but someone out there is going to start an enterprise and say, welcome to our office. And you're going to like what this looks like a nightclub.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

You know what this looks like a lot. You know, And I think that we're going to understand what an office is, someone's going to invent it and the rest of us are going to go, that's what an office is.

[Audience Member 1]

Right?

[Jeff]

Because a lot of, you know, a lot of right now, the pull back to return the work. I mean, you return to office, I should say. I mean, you had the quote up there. It's like dropping the hammer, right? Like the language and the approach, like it's almost the exact opposite of what you're describing. So, you know, is there a right way or I mean, is there a wrong way? Like how. So you talk about how versus why, like what does that look like?

[Dan Pink]

I mean, I think it's going to vary from place to place. I think that the ideal, as a general principle, but with all kinds of tinkerings at the margins and for specific use cases is a couple days in the office and a few days in the office and a few days at home, some amount of autonomy about people choosing those days. But not full.

[Audience Member 1]

Right, right.

[Dan Pink]

Because, because you want people in the office at the same time. So I've totally like these, these I see arrangements where it's like you have to be in the office Tuesday and Wednesday. The other days, do whatever you want. Yeah, that seems to be perfectly fine now with the hope that what we do on Tuesday and Wednesday is something different from what I, is not simply sitting at my computer by myself.

[Audience Member 1]

Right, right.

[Jeff]

No, I mean it makes complete sense. And I mean, you know, related to that, I'm, we're coming out of a period of being, you know, probably over indexed on remote.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Jeff]

And we've come from a place where, you know, we're just looking at screens all day.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Jeff]

And we didn't even notice it. But you know, are you seeing or are you hearing about, you know, individual kind of impacts of, you know. Oh, all my meetings are now not physically with people. They're looking at a screen. Is that impacting us?

[Dan Pink]

I think so. I mean, I think that, I don't know for sure, but I think that you got, you, your intuition is spot on. I share it about, about breaks. So if you're just hopping from screen meeting to screen meeting, it's not even like being in an office where maybe your meeting's in a different conference room.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

And you have to get up and walk.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

And then maybe you see Fred in the hallway or whatever. You know, that's not even, that's not even halfling. So I, I, I don't think that it is fundamentally healthy for most of us to be looking at screens the entire day. That said, we're going to be looking at screens a lot of the day no matter where we are.

[Audience Member 1]

Right, right.

[Jeff]

That makes sense. I wanted to talk briefly about your final point, which is all about the power of regret.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Jeff]

And about, if I can paraphrase, taking chances. Making sure we're taking chances. The data set was really interesting. It kind of changes with age. You know, how do we make sure that, like, what does that look like in practice for us as individuals? How do we, you know, how do we take those chances? And especially I guess like at work. What, what does that maybe look like?

[Dan Pink]

Yeah, so, so I don't, so, so the takeaway is that when you look at people's regrets, one of the big regrets they have are regrets of boldness.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

If only I taken the chance. And then when you look at even a broader array of research, it shows that regrets of inaction easily outnumber regrets of action. I think that's a Lesson for us.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

The lesson isn't always take risks. Sure. I think that's the lesson. I think the lesson is to recognize that in some ways the way we're set, particularly at work, is think about our dial. Right. We need to turn it up a few notches. We don't need to go take all the risks.

[Jeff]

Sure.

[Dan Pink]

But I think that our forecast of what is risky and what is not is a little distorted. Not totally distorted, but it's a little too. It's a little too risk averse and you just want to actually correct for that one click, two clicks in the other, in the other direction. So there's a famous Stephen Levitt paper where, you know, if you're that. That, that people ended up being happy with decisions that were made on a point flip, and in many cases it's because they did something. And so I've changed my view on this, Jeff, somewhat in that I become more and more convinced that acting is a form of thinking. I don't want to get completely metaphysical on you, but I think that acting is when we do stuff, we think and we learn. And I think in some cases, particularly in white collar work, where again, that too much, too much emphasis on planning and analysis and all that, that's important. I just think I just want to recalibrate the dials just a little bit. A little less kind of strategy and analysis and a little bit more just kind of acting. Because I think that when you, when you act, you learn faster.

[Audience Member 1]

Right, right.

[Jeff]

And I love that in your presentation as well. About, you know, we're in this period of great sorting. We need to act.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Jeff]

That needs to be the priorities. Is that, you know, as we think about new technologies in the changing world, does that become the new normal? Is that okay? Well, you know, give it 18 months and then we go back.

[Dan Pink]

I don't know. That's a good question. I think there's a chance we could go back to a little bit less of the acting our way into knowing.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

But on the other hand, if you just look at this, the relentlessness business of stuff changing.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

Even in the last 20 years, you realize, like, smartphones are not 20 years old yet. Kind of amazing.

[Audience Member 1]

Wow.

[Dan Pink]

You know, there are, you know, many of these people in that. Many of the people in this room went to university without using the Internet.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

And. And so now we have, in the space of this preposterously short amount of time, you know, in the last thing, about the last 20, since 2004, we have these smartphones and the Cascade of things that. That gave us. We have social media and the cascade of mostly terrible things that. That, that. That gave us. We have essentially eliminated the barriers to entry for creating stuff. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty amazing. Like, 20 years ago you might have needed a video. I mean, you guys have a nice video from here, but 20 years ago that would have been mandatory.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

And now you got people generating millions and millions of views in their videos from their phone. So, so, so we have, you know, we have smartphones and social media and essentially zero barriers to entry for. For creating stuff. Again, that's pretty crazy. Oh, and by the way, AI suddenly comes along, Right. And throws everything up in the air. So I would like for things to be a little bit more mellow, but if I had a.

[Jeff]

Maybe not.

[Dan Pink]

If we're here, we're. We're here. We're here in Vegas.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

If I had to, like, put my chips on. Staying mellow.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

Or remaining tumultuous. I think I'm going to put my chips on remaining tumultuous.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Jeff]

Or at least not going back to the level of mellowness maybe of, you know, years past. If there's anything now that you think we're going to look back on in a few years, either as, like, individuals or as organizations, and say, no, what now do we have wrong that we have an opportunity to fix?

[Dan Pink]

I mean, I think a lot of those are at the level of. Not so much the level of organizations, but just at the level of society. I think that our. Maybe our grandchildren, certainly our great grandchildren, will be shocked and appalled that we let human beings drive cars.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

When there are, you know, tens of thousands of deaths every year because of this. I mean, it's lots of benefits, too, just to be clear. That's part of it. I think some of it is that the idea that in the States and other places, we let. We. We have people who live in poverty. A mystic, this incredible. This is an incredible wealth. One of the great things that's happened in the world is you have literally, in the last 50 years, you've had billions of people leave poverty.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

And yet still in these. In wealthy countries like the United States, we still have people living in. We still have people living in. We still have people living in poverty. I think that we will look back, our grandchildren will look back and say, wait a second, you made people go to this office? Or we open the house every single day. Not just some days. What did you do there? Oh, we just sat around and did our work by Ourselves. Why? I think that. So I think it's a great way. I think your question is a great question. I think it's a great thinking people.

[Jeff]

Sure.

[Dan Pink]

You know, I think it's a great subject for a breakout or an offset or something like that. Like what, 50 years from now are we going to look back on and.

[Jeff]

Say, right, how was going on here?

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Pink]

What do you think we'll look back on?

[Jeff]

You know, I mean, I think, I think you covered a bunch of it around like, like the office stuff, what we expect from people and just the pace. To me, a lot of these topics we're having around burnout and the more is more, as you said, we're sorting it all out now, but I think at some point the pressure has to come down a little bit.

[Audience Member 1]

Right?

[Jeff]

Yeah, I don't know. I like to think so. And I was going to ask you along those lines.

[Dan Pink]

I think there's another thing here. I think one of the things we'll realize in the same way that we're, we look back on say the jobs of 100 years ago or 150 years ago, it was like nasty and brutish and I'm sure, I think we're going to look back on some white collar jobs.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Dan Pink]

Like some white collar jobs are really not that fun. Yeah, they're kind of.

[Jeff]

Why would you make a person do that?

[Dan Pink]

Exactly.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jeff]

So, you know, along those lines with AI, with the advent of kind of technology and how it's, you know, shaping society, are you, would you say you're an optimist in that sense about where we're going, a pessimist or somewhere in the middle?

[Dan Pink]

If optimism is a 10 and pessimism and human annihilation is a 1. So let's see if an AI utopia is 10 and human annihilation is a 1. I'm probably, I'm pretty high up there. I'm probably 7.

[Jeff]

Okay.

[Dan Pink]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

Okay.

[Dan Pink]

Yeah, I'm pretty optimistic about it.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

In the same way that if you think about how transformative the Internet has been or just simply being connected all the time, the idea that people are, it has all kinds of downsides, but the idea that people are able to find stuff and find communities and find information at know with a few wipes of their fingers, that's kind of amazing. Yeah, the. I, I think there's a, a leveling of the playing field big time that it can, it can have with people within terms of access to information, in terms of access to creative tools. So I'm you know, I, I, you know, here's the thing. My, my view is that I, I, I steer toward optimism, more optimism than pessimism, but future, not because I'm an innately sunny person, but because that's been the pattern.

[Audience Member 1]

Right, right.

[Dan Pink]

You know, and so I did this thing years ago when I was looking at, I ordered on ebay, which wouldn't exist, didn't exist 20, 30 years ago, ordered on ebay, a bunch of books and reports that forecast what life was going to be like in the year 2000. So these are things from like 50s and 60s. What are things going to be like in the year 2000? I ended up not writing about it. And but one of the things that was interesting is that they, they grouped. Basically 50% were probably wild eyed utopians.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Dan Pink]

Like no more pollution, no more environmental problems.

[Jeff]

Poverty is gone.

[Dan Pink]

Poverty's gone. People are going to be working three hours a week, living lives of leisure.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah, right.

[Dan Pink]

The other one is like, oh, we're gonna, we're gonna have this ravaged planet with people walking around in these small tribes battling each other for survival. And that's about 40 and 10 were like, that's probably gonna be a little better.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

About 20% better than it is right now.

[Dan Pink]

It's gonna be a little better than it was. And it's like, okay, I'm with that. It's like, yeah, I think if you were to, if we were to do a repeat on this, this conversation in five years, I would say, I think we would say, yeah, it's a little better. Yeah, it's a little bit not perfect, but it's a little better.

[Audience Member 1]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

Wonderful. Daniel, it was so great speaking with you. I love the presentation. Thanks so much for a fascinating conversation.

[Dan Pink]

Thanks for having me.

[Jeff]

Awesome.