← Digital Disruption with Geoff Nielson
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- [00:01]
Jeff
Hey, everyone. I'm super excited to be sitting down with Kathy Hackl. She has a reputation as the godmother of the Metaverse and for being a leading thinker anywhere technology is coming out of traditional devices like phones and entering our physical reality, or even creating a whole new one. What's cool about Kathy is that she has a behind the curtain view of some of the most cutting edge tech being developed around the world. Look, I'll be honest, I'm a big metaverse skeptic myself and I've actually gotten on stage to tell thousands of leaders that I think the whole thing is bs. I have to get this off my chest. I think that the metaverse is bullshit. I want to ask her if I'm getting something wrong or I'm just looking in the wrong place. I want to know when and how emerging technologies are going to enter our lives and our workplaces and what we need to do to be ready. Let's find out. Hey, Kathy, thanks so much for joining today. I wanted to jump right in and ask a little bit about, you know, this area of space that we traditionally call spatial computing, the Metaverse. Extended reality. It feels like it's kind of growing and changing these days, and there's been certainly some exciting announcements in this space in the last handful of days and weeks. Has the way you think about it changed and you know what's kind of most exciting to you right now?
- [01:19]
Kathy Hackl
Yeah, I think it's an ever evolving space. It's interesting because a lot of people come to me and say the Metaverse is dead. Right? As someone known in tech circles as the godmother of the Metaverse, I get that all the time. And I'm like, well, the metaverse wasn't really here yet. People are building towards it, so you can't kill something that doesn't exist. It's more the hype, right? The hype that really died off. What has changed for me, I think, is some things haven't changed. I think a lot of what, A lot of what I've learned throughout the years working at companies like HTC Vive, which did VR headsets, and Magic Leap, which did, you know, one of the earliest spatial computing computers out there, and I've got one right behind me for anyone watching on, on video, what I learned in those companies has not changed, which is the convergence of physical and virtual that we're kind of gearing towards, that has not changed. I think maybe it's the way it's being created or developed, or the, the importance of AI in enabling that future, I think that has definitely been accelerated or. Or it was something that I thought about, but obviously over the last two years has become the number one topic. So I think that's evolved. I will say the term metaverse, even for me, has changed in the sense that I feel like some people are maybe moving away from the term metaverse in some ways to spatial web, more of that spatialized web, a web, you know, that expands into the physical world. And I know we're going to talk more about this. I think I'm seeing more people, not more people, but more people starting to say, okay, maybe, maybe the term isn't metaverse and maybe it's spatial web. Just like the information superhighway wasn't the right word. Right. We use Internet or web now. So I think that there is that kind of, maybe those changes happening and kind of how we talk about this potential future state.
- [03:03]
Jeff
Cool. So let's maybe talk about some of the emerging technologies that have been announced recently. I'm thinking about things like Google Beam, like xr, Like, I don't know if it's actually pronounced IO or eo. I guess I should have read up on that. But what are those? Like, can you maybe quickly just walk us through what each of those technologies is and your excitement level and kind of outlook for each of them?
- [03:29]
Kathy Hackl
So with Google Beam, which used to be called Google's Project Starlight, I actually got a demo of it a couple years ago and to explain to people, and I'm going to try to explain to folks in words what it is. Right. It is pretty much a system where you're able to kind of have a communications with someone that's not with you in the same place, but you see them in 3D and in volumetric form. But there's no headset, right? There's no headset. It's. It's through AI and through cameras. So my experience was I walked into a room and I sat behind a table, and in front of me is this like this screen of sorts. And I guess there's multiple cameras and everything, but all of a sudden someone else sits across from me in this virtual screen of sorts of. But it's not a flat screen in the sense that I'm actually able to see depth. I'm actually able to see them in 3D which, which takes your brain and your eyes a second to kind of, whoa, okay, I'm not wearing a headset. I'm seeing this person in 3D. And there is an AI component of how they're doing this, but you have this experience. And I think the biggest thing for me is it felt like Star Trek. Like something like from Star Trek, right? It felt kind of like, wow, we're really enabling this type of communication. What impressed me the most, Jeff, was that when I had that Google Beam now, I guess, demo is how, how, how realistic things looked, right? I could almost see their pores, which was impressive to me. Like, it was really great definition. And then they had an apple and I remember them extending the apple towards me in. My initial reaction as a human is I would want to grab the apple. Of course, I can't because it's virtual. But that kind of, that kind of was the moment for me that I said, this is powerful technology. And whether it, whether, whether it's something that, you know, we have in our homes or whether it's something that's enabled through different devices or you might have people using a Google Beam and headsets at the same time, I don't know what it's going to look like. It looked to me like the, one of the ways that we're going to communicate as humans in the future. So that's for Google Beam. You asked me also, do you want to talk about some of the headsets and some of the other things?
- [05:39]
Jeff
Well, let's just while we're on Google Beam, because I don't want to lose track of it. How much, in your mind, is this kind of a tech demo and it'll stay a tech demo versus. Do you think there's actually commercial applications here? Is, I guess, the hardware infrastructure going to be viable for people to have these things in their homes or in their offices?
- [05:59]
Kathy Hackl
Well, maybe potentially, if it's smaller. It is still. I mean, the demo that I got is still a pretty big setup, right? So I don't think it's small. It could be very useful, I think, for like, fashion brands, for example. This is where my mind went when I saw it was, you know, the Apple. But then I was like, my gosh, if I am buying jewelry or I'm buying something where I want to see the texture, I want to see it up close. And maybe, let's say, let's say I'm in Hong Kong and the jewel I want to buy is in, you know, in Mexico, let's say, hypothetically, this is going to be a way to kind of have that communication in a better way. Or if I am a designer and I am dressing a star and I want to show them some of these, you know, dresses in a much more 3D, immersive way. So I think that we might have these devices in certain places. I don't know if it's going to be in every home, at least for the time being, but we might have them in different places. I could even see people setting up. And this is my mind going to a lot of the current research I'm doing on AI technology and the future of human relationships. I could even imagine people setting up, maybe like, dating salons, where they have some of these. And you might be able to meet people and meet them in 3D in that virtual form before you actually meet them in person, because they might not be there or, you know, so I don't know. It was very. To me, it was very powerful to see someone in 3D in that form, in such a. In such a clear form in front of me without a headset on.
- [07:18]
Jeff
That's. That's so cool. And I love it. Sounds promising in the sense that you can just rattle off potential use cases. And that's always an interesting barrier, an interesting kind of pressure test for a new technology. Is it something where you can say, okay, you could use it for XYZ and I'll dunk on the metaverse for a minute, But I feel like there was a time with the metaverse where it's just like, no, trust us, it's going to be good, but we can't exactly explain how you're going to use it.
- [07:45]
Kathy Hackl
Yeah. You know, at the end of the day, I think as humans, we are. We live in a 3D world. Right. We do not live in a flat world. It's all 3D and we're volumetric. So my premise has always been like, for example, with the dating example, it's like, we date in 3D. Like, a lot of it is text and a lot of. But like, at the end of the day, you date a human, at least for now, and they're in 3D, so why not date in 3D? Those sorts of things. So I'm really, really interested in kind of looking at that. Um, my mind also went to, like, job interviews because, you know, so many decisions are made on a flat zoom video of whether you hire someone or not, if you're not meeting them in person. I feel like this could add a level of. Of potential to see someone's personality come through or see how do they. You know, there was a part of me that thought, okay, this could be really interesting for job interviews as well, and making a better decision about who someone is, you know, in a more 3D form than just a 2D Zoom call, so.
- [08:42]
Jeff
Right. Well, and it, it strikes me as the type of thing where if we're anywhere near being able to send any number of these out, it starts with, okay, there's special salons or there's special, you know, places you go that have them and people get a feel for them. And as the economics change, they, you know, first enter the enterprise, then maybe the enter, they enter the home, and there's a whole, you know, kind of 5 to 10 year, maybe even more timeline of how we integrate these into our lives.
- [09:10]
Kathy Hackl
Yeah. And I don't think it will be just one device. I think we'll have multiple devices that we go in between, depending on what we want to do. Right. But I think that this, this, whatever this is laying the seeds for is part of that future, future human to human communication state.
- [09:25]
Jeff
Right. And you know, I have to ask you, because you used this face to face, was there any part of you that experienced it and thought, like, well, why would I ever take another call on my phone again? Like, why would I ever go back to the like, Is there a world, if the technology enables it, where it actually, you know, almost fully replaces what we're doing now?
- [09:44]
Kathy Hackl
Yes. And especially when it comes to emotion and family and people you care about, that's one of the moments where I said, okay, this has potential in that sense. And I think that's where a device like Google Beam or devices like some of these newer headsets that are coming could really be important. Right. Which is memory preservation or the idea and the concept of presence of being with someone in kind of the same place, even if you can't be in the same place. I thought that was very powerful. There's a lot of thinking I'm doing right now and a talk I'm working on which is called the Future of the Family Photo. Right. So anyone listening here, I want you to think about 10 years in the future, 2035. What does your family portrait or your family photo look like? Right. Does it include potentially a hologram of a deceased loved one that might not be with us? Is that possible? Is the technology's already here? Right. Does it include a robot? Right. I think of the Jetsons. The Jetsons always had Rosie in any picture of the family. Rosie was always there. So my mind extends and pushes into that of like, memory preservation. And this comes, I guess, from that Google Beam experience, but also from Apple Vision Pro and some of the devices I've used where you're able to relive Memories. Like I shoot a lot of like let's say spatial video, which is video that has 3D and depth on my iPhone and then I am able to watch it in my Apple Vision Pro. So like I've watched my kids or I've done videos with my dad who's 80, for example, and I relive them and there's an emotion that comes through that is very special. So I think that there is something there. And I think products eventually do take off not for technology's sake, but because they allow us to feel something in. The example I give everyone is Facebook. Like my parents and a bigger part of the market didn't enter Facebook until they weren't like going there because they needed to see pictures of their grandkids. Right. So I think that there is something here that has to pull at our heartstrings to make some of this technology fully mass market.
- [11:49]
Jeff
That's, that's really, really interesting. And I hadn't really thought about it, but. And I'm, I'm by no means like a big like AR or VR guy, but in my own experience, the, the time I messed with it the most was I had years and years ago. I don't remember it's called like Google Cardboard or something, but there was, you know. Yeah, yeah. And I remember the thing that the memory is emotional that I remember I could take pictures of like my parents house and put it on and like you're there, right? And it captures that moment. And so it's really interesting that you bring that up as kind of like the use case because I totally buy that and I see that being the way that we, you know, again the stress test for where this technology will work or not work.
- [12:33]
Kathy Hackl
And I think especially with AI becoming, coming more at the forefront and everyone talk about humanoid robots and dating AIs and all that stuff. I think human will have a premium human and I think some of these technologies will allow us to have that, you know, that human experience that we all so crave or most of us do. So. So yeah, I think that there is two different forces happening at the same time here.
- [12:54]
Jeff
You mentioned briefly Vision Pro and Vision Pro. I don't know if this is just my feed or my sphere, but I feel like there's been backlash is probably too strong a word, but I feel like I've heard some, some news stories or some propagated stories of just all people are asking for refunds or it hasn't really panned out the way people thought. You know, where are we in the life cycle of Vision Pro was it, you know, always just meant to be a tech demo and it, you know, it's gotten as far as it's going to go. Where does that product go from here?
- [13:25]
Kathy Hackl
Well, I think it goes further. But I will tell you this. I do believe that as a product, this was not a consumer product. This was a developer's kit. Let's be very clear. Granted, they made a huge, you know, splash from a consumer standpoint, but, you know, was it a consumer product? No, not really. I mean, I'm a developer. I use the device to create things. It's. There's still friction in be able to create things for the Vision Pro. It's not something everyone's going to be doing, at least not right now. So, so definitely would say that. And I don't think that they, you know, I don't think they, they had like, I don't think they expected to sell billion, like billions of these. I think that they, you know, it was just kind of a very, very Apple marketing push to prime the market. I think personally that's what they were trying to do, prime the market, test the market, bring something innovative out. Because, you know, what else can we do to our phones? What other cameras can we add to it? So I do think as we look towards the future and potentially newer products that Apple might bring to the market, we're going to see different versions. I'm not saying it'll be the Apple Vision Pro 2 or something, but I think we will see different versions. At the end of the day, what all these devices are trying to do is replace the mobile phone or give us an option that might be more immersive than the mobile phone. Right. So, yeah, so it's, I don't think Apple Vision Pro 1 is it. Right. But it seeded the market, it seeded the narrative and it started kind of that path, that path towards this newer 3D spatial video, spatial audio format.
- [14:54]
Jeff
Right. So speaking of new devices, what is OpenAI up to right now? You know, they've got this partnership that they announced. I'll be honest, I don't think fully get it. Like, I get, I get that they want to expand into hardware or into the physical world, but I don't, I don't really get it. Like, can you shed some light on, on what's going on over there and how you see it kind of playing out?
- [15:16]
Kathy Hackl
Yeah, so I don't have any insider information. So first of all. But I'll tell you what I've noticed, so I've been Tracking this for almost two years. So one of the first times I heard Sam Altman talk about the future of the smartphone or hardware, really a hardware conversation, was Wall Street Tech Live 2023. That's as early as I heard him talk about hardware. And it stuck with me. And I was like, let me, let me hear this. So then earlier, earlier in 2025, there was news that they had filed patents for smart jewelry, for smart glasses, VR headsets, a whole bunch of different things, right? And I wrote a lot of articles in Forbes and also for the World Economic Forum about how the hardware is critical for the development of the newer models. And whoever owns the hardware owns the data that is going to train the newer models. What I mean by that is that this is a strategic play. This is not just about hardware, right? Right now what you have are, is generative AI, large language models that are trained on language, right? Whether it's video, whether it's audio, whatever it is, right? But it's mostly creating on. It's mostly trained on audio and things that already exist that have already been created, right? In order for us to go from generative AI into agentic AI and then into physical AI, which is kind of the, the curb that Jensen Huang from Nvidia shows us every time he does a keynote, in order for us to get there, you are going to need new architectures and new models. And some of those new models are, for example, vision, action models. So models that are scanning the world, the physical world, constantly, in real time, creating a virtual version of the world, like a mesh of the virtual world, that is going to allow these devices to understand the world, put content in front of us. There's going to allow more robots to navigate the world, more autonomous vehicles. There's this whole other component. So whoever owns the hardware is going to be able to kind of own the data or have access to the data to train these newer models. So this is a vision towards the future. And the only way that OpenAI can eventually compete with an Apple or a Meta or any of these is, is if they have a hardware play. And I think a lot of people miss that. Like, they don't understand that this is a hardware play in that sense. And the moat, the mode around the software, the mode around the LLM per se that we use today is getting smaller by the day, right? So where, where are the bigger opportunities? Where are going to be the larger modes? We'll be in hardware because hardware is hard. That's the saying of anyone that works in hardware. We all know that the hardware is going to determine how some of these newer models go, how they're trained, the data they have access to, and then who gets to put content in front of you? All these sorts of things. Right. So whoever owns the hardware is going to have an upper hand. That's why Meta, for example, is in their hardware era. So I hope that, I hope, Jeff, I hope that made sense. I know it makes sense to you.
- [17:58]
Jeff
No, it does. But I want to dig into it a little bit more because you answered half of the question, which is the half of like, what's in it for OpenAI? What's in it for Sam? I get what's in it for Sam. I get what's in it for OpenAI. I get the competitive part, but what's in it for me? What's in it for you? Like, I understand why they want to be in hardware. Why should I get their device? Why as consumers, should we be excited about this?
- [18:24]
Kathy Hackl
I don't know if we should be excited about this or not. I don't know what's in it for us. What was in it for us with social connection. But, you know, obviously that turned out to be a totally different thing. Our data, you know, we became the product kind of thing. So I don't know, I don't know what's in it for us. The only thing I can imagine here is a couple things. I would say the fact that we're starting to all use AI so much on a constant basis that maybe that human, that human technology collaboration that we're building becomes something that we have to, that we do every day, and then it's going to be easier to do it in some other type of hardware. Right. I don't always want to be talking to my, my phone or to my computer. It's some other device that I can talk to that can give me more information in real time about the physical world. So what could be in it for us would be faster access to AI. AI that understands and sees the world and becomes a lot more useful to us. That's potentially what could be, you know, an incentive to consumers. There's a whole question about privacy, right? Is there even privacy? Like, I'm a guinea pig for all these devices. I've got my iris scanned by, I don't know how many devices, like, to me, like I. Or my hand, like my face scanned by so much facial recognition. Like, there's a part of me that feels like, I mean, I've given in my perspective, because I am a guinea pig and I Try all these devices. I feel like maybe I've given up a lot of my privacy already. It doesn't mean everyone should. Right. But there is that question, like, what is in it for the consumer? I'm not sure yet. I'm not sure what exactly, other than potentially being able to. Being able to do certain things. I do think that if Alexa, and this is the joke, if robots, you know, if Alexa can do my laundry and Alexa can, you know, do my dishes, then maybe it is something that I want in my house.
- [20:09]
Jeff
Yeah, well, and it's such. And I swear I didn't plan this, but it's such an interesting, you know, it's such an interesting comparison with, you know, Google Beam, which we just talked about, because this is a technology where there's an emotional reaction and it's so present and we're rattling off use cases and then, you know, we switch to, to. We switched to OpenAI and we're like, I don't know, I don't know. It's like, it's good for Sam, but I don't know what we'll use it for. So it's very interesting to have these completely different ends of the spectrum here.
- [20:39]
Kathy Hackl
I'll give you a comment here that I think is very important and very relevant. The data that has been coming out is that a lot of people are using LLMs, like ChatGPT, for example, for advice, maybe companionship. Lot of people are using it to get advice for dating. Some people are dating the AI, you know, but what people forget here is that you, at the end of the day, especially if you're seeking it for therapy, which is concerning to me, you are talking to a corporation. You are not talking to a friend. Right? This is a corporation that owns the LLM. And the LLM is programmed to agree with you unless you ask it not to. You know, unless you like per set the parameter that you want it to be, you know, contradictory and all that stuff. And that's what I think people forget. It's like you're not talking to a friend here. What you're talking to here is a corporation, a general purpose, large language model. Right? And I, people, I think people lose that. So your question is, I think, very relevant at this moment in time where so many people are going to it for advice.
- [21:40]
Jeff
I was actually talking to a friend about this over dinner the other day, which is, you know, first of all, I'm a huge advocate of mental health. I'm a huge advocate of people getting therapy and getting support. And what my friend Said is when she talks to a therapist, it's confidential, but it's not a completely closed system because the therapist has notes on their computer in a notebook. But that's the extent of it, right? Like, someone could break into their office or into their system and hack that. When you start moving that to like, okay, now I'm talking now Google has access to that now OpenAI has access to that. And they're like, almost explicitly, I would say, using that to train their systems. Like, what does that mean? And what is the potential downside for you as an individual there?
- [22:28]
Kathy Hackl
All of this is data, right? It's data. It's the data you're putting in there. If the LLM knows that you have broken up with John and you're really sad, it starts to be like, okay, maybe you'll start Getting ads for match.com? i mean, this is all about selling data, right? And what information are they going to get from you? And then when you add AI agents into it, that's the next level. I mean, if your agent knows that you're sad because you broke up or you, you know, or something like that, like, is it going to start. Is it going to start shopping for things to make you feel better that you might not need, like wallies, wall E type of situation? Right? I don't need the Slurpee, but it makes me feel good. So. So I think that there is this other layer that worries me when we're putting so much information, personal information, into these devices, well, not devices, into these LLMs, right? When there is no HIPAA, there's no, like, there's nothing regulating this, right? And I went to Esther, Esther Perel's sessions live, and there was a big conversation around AI and it was mostly therapists and coaches. And that was the big. The big question is like, our, our patients are all going to ChatGPT for advice. We don't get to see it. We don't necessarily think that everything it's saying is the right course of action. They're finding value in it. How do you merge those? How do you com, how do you. How do you marry those two? So that there is ethics and privacy in some ways when it comes to mental health, but also that people get access to something, you know, when they might not be able to afford a therapist. So it's, it's kind of like a. I mean, someone's got to come up with a really good solution here at some point that allows for both.
- [24:01]
Jeff
Well, and, you know, not. Not to try and get the silver bullet answer. But I mean, do you have some overarching guidance that you give to people around how they should and shouldn't be using generative AI?
- [24:14]
Kathy Hackl
Yeah. When it comes to, when it comes to that personal advice part, like if it's for business, you, every corporation should have, you know, should have their own bylines on how to use it, et cetera, what you can and can't input. Right. I think for a personal perspective, it's just like what I tell my kids is that when you're doing social and when you're doing photos, nothing gets erased. Just because you think someone deleted it. No, this is going to live on forever if you, you know, potentially. Right. Just because it snap disappears, doesn't really disappear. So the same concept you are talking to a corporation, what you are sharing, you know, you have to be very mindful of what it is that you're sharing. It has memory. If you don't want it to remember, this is something you have to change. Right. Because it'll continue remembering. So thinking through that, I think my biggest advice for some people, at least the one that I'm using personally, and this I'm just going to get personal here, is, is as someone that is recently divorced and dating is I ask the men that I'm seeing to not use AI in our conversations. So the AI pledge, what I call an AI pledge because a lot of people out there in the dating world are using AI to craft these really romantic, you know, like, talk about love bombing to the love bombing 3.0 using AI. So I feel like that's something a lot of people are starting to talk about, is not offloading your difficult conversations to an AI. Yeah, you can use an AI to kind of help you try to decipher how to say something, but don't give me only generated things. And I found already friends, for example, that were reaching out to me for advice. I'm like, oh my gosh, Johnny sent me this. What do you think he said? And I literally said, look, it's got EM dashes everywhere. What human uses an EM dash to text your boo? I'm like, this is my big hunch here, is that they use ChatGPT. And then they went back and looked at the other text like messages. And I was like, hate to break it to you, but if it does feel to me that they're using ChatGPT because I don't know anyone that knows where to find the EM dash on their phone when they're texting, that's by.
- [26:07]
Jeff
The way, I Love the EM dash text. I was just a test, rather, I was just laughing at that. And it's interesting because it can do, as you were saying with your friend, it can do a pretty good job at creating that content. But at some point, you're going to meet the guy, and they're not going to be able to hold up their end of the bargain. Right. And you're like, oh, I actually just.
- [26:25]
Kathy Hackl
It was just the Shakespeare. Yeah. Your pros and how you talk in real life are definitely not the same. You know, And I'm already seeing this. I'll give you. Jeff, I know we're going on a different tangent, but this was interesting to me. Very, very concerning. I was talking to my teenage daughter, and she was talking about her friends who were meeting, you know, their. Their kids are dating in Roblox, and kids are, you know, instead of passing a note in the hallway, those things are done on Snapchat now. Right. So there's all these things. And she was telling me about her friend who was dating someone, and turns out the kid was younger than he said he was. So she was in high school, he was in middle school. She found out she was. He was in middle school. But then she was like, but I don't want to break up with him because he writes me these really beautiful messages.
- [27:09]
Jeff
Oh, my gosh.
- [27:10]
Kathy Hackl
And then she shows my daughter the messages. And of course, being my daughter, she's like, I think that might be AI. So then my daughter shows it to me, and I'm, like, deciphering it. I'm like, no, there's no way, you know, a middle school boy, no matter how good he is, is writing this level of prose on a constant basis. And. Yeah. And if, in fact, this kid was using ChatGPT, so, I mean, there's already a lot happening with teenage girls being manipulated. I'm concerned.
- [27:36]
Jeff
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. That's like equal parts funny and terrifying there. Yeah, yeah. And sad as well. You know, let's maybe zoom out in terms of just technology in general. And we talked about a few particular use cases, but, you know, just in general, when we think about how some of these technologies are starting to intersect, we're thinking about AI, we're thinking of Internet of things, we're talking about extended reality, robotics, all. All that good stuff. Where are kind of the pockets right now that are most exciting to you, or do you see the most promise?
- [28:06]
Kathy Hackl
There's several, I would say, when it comes to emerging technologies, I would say there's four for me that I'M really interested in and I'm actually doing some work with Nokia as their futurist in residence. So there's four things that I'm really interested in. Obviously on the component of AI is the concept of expanding AI into the physical world that we talked about. I actually just spent about a week, a little over a week in Japan and I actually got to spend a lot of time with some of the, some of the nations in Japan. Some of the, Japan's leading roboticists, like Professor Ishiguro, which a lot of people know. He has like a, a humanoid robot that looks just like him. He's at the forefront of humanoid robots and kind of having conversations with, with him of why people would adopt these. Where is this going? I spent time with another brilliant roboticist who's working on creating extra fingers and limbs for humans, right. Which sounds weird, but once he shows you what he's doing, you're like, wow, okay, this could be really interesting for the future of work. So really trying to think through like what is the purpose of a humanoid robot, right. Especially in a country like Japan where you have an aging population, right. Eventually they're not going to have enough young people to kind of help. Like there's a whole bunch of things, there's a lot of loneliness as well. So thinking through, through that and seeing kind of the good and the bad there. Especially I think culturally though in Japan, from a religious standpoint, I would say from a spirituality, spirituality standpoint, they do. There are concepts that they have about inanimate beings having a soul where we, when we might call a soul in English, you know, whether it is a statue of Buddha or whether it's an object or a puppet, like that for them is very, very, very ingrained in the, in the culturally. So, so for them, robots have always been around and they've already accepted robots not necessarily as a soul, but as beings that might have maybe not sentience, but there's a different perspective. Whereas we in the western world see robots and we think Terminator most of the time, I think in parts like Japan, the perspective is different. So I would say definitely humanoid robots and find that fascinating.
- [30:14]
Jeff
Sorry, just before we leave humanoid robots, you said, I just want to zoom into something because you used the phrase. When we think about the purpose of humanoid robots, can we unpack that for a second? In your mind, what is the purpose of humanity, humanoid robots? Like what are the, you know, the best emerging use cases?
- [30:30]
Kathy Hackl
Well, I think there's several right there. There's several short term ones which could be long term care for the elderly when there is a need, when there is a, you know, a. When there's not enough people to maybe come and help. So that was something that was obviously talked about. Definitely. There's also conversations about humanoid robots for. At work. I don't know if humanoid robot is the right form for certain work. You know, if it's a factory, it doesn't have to be a humanoid robot. Why does it have to be in two legs? There's a whole conversation there on that. So yeah, I think that there's uses. There are some uses that are kind of more edgy. I don't necessarily want to go there, but those are definitely being explored in Japan. Read into that while you may. You know, so. So there are different uses. There was an interesting part of what Professor Ishiguro was presenting at the Expo. So I was there at the World Expo and he curated a whole pavilion called the Future of Life. And in it there was like thinking maybe a hundred years into the future and how you might be able to kind of offload your consciousness eventually into humanoid robot. That's obviously not something we can do right now, but there are plenty of startups or companies thinking through how that might be possible in the future. So, you know, I don't necessarily want to be offload my, you know, my consciousness into a humanoid robot, but it could be a potential future, it's ahead of us. So. So I would say those are some of the things that, that I'm. That definitely I'm seeing. Right. And then there's also that idea and the concept of labor at home. Like, you know, help, house, help, all those sorts of things.
- [32:04]
Jeff
Rosie from the.
- [32:05]
Kathy Hackl
Rosie pretty much Rosie from the Jetsons. So. Which I wouldn't mind having a Rosie from the Texans at all, to be honest, but.
- [32:11]
Jeff
Cool. So sorry, I interrupted you there. What are the last two cases?
- [32:16]
Kathy Hackl
No, I think that that's kind of it for humanoid robots for right now. What I.
- [32:19]
Jeff
Right, sorry. Beyond the humanoid robot.
- [32:21]
Kathy Hackl
Beyond that, I would say I'm really interested as well. Well, spatial computing, that's kind of my background. That's where I come from. I'm excited to see that convergence of physical and virtual, of being able to. And when I say that, I mean being able to see digital content, content in front of you. So making that virtual layer that we engage with on our phones kind of visible in front of you. Right. So eventually being able to navigate the world with some type of wearable or device or whatever it becomes that allows me to See this digital content in front of me. So annotations, wayfinding, you know, holograms, all these sorts of things in front of me. I find that really interesting. So it's when the world becomes the canvas, the physical world becomes a canvas, but it also becomes real estate, which is very scary. There's someone asked me the other day what keeps you up at night from a work perspective? And I said it does not keep anyone else up at night or very few people in the world. But it's the concept of virtual air rights. Who owns the air around you? Who owns what's in front of you, what you can see? And with an earshot, because with these devices come again. Once again you're like, why would we use these? Right? There's going to be things that are going to be put in front of you with an eyesight, you're going to hear things. So who owns that? Who regulates that? Right. I'm talking to governments right now about that concept of virtual air rights. Once we have these, you know, once AI is in the world, you have to start to create these sanctuaries where nothing is allowed to be put in front of you. So, so that is a, that's a promising in one way because I think there's going to be a lot of things that get unlocked, like virtual fashion, like ways to express ourselves, being able to, you know, be present in different places at the same time. Like, I think there's going to be a lot of stuff that's unlocked there. But also there's this other component of like potential things that could go really wrong that we need to get ahead of really soon. So that's, I would say. And then I'm really interested in space technology. That's where I've been kind of spending a little bit of time over the last couple of years, doing some really interesting projects in that space. But thinking through, you know, how does space commerce take off? What does it mean? You know, just, just thinking through that. Those are areas that I'm focused on as well, where, where I'm learning, where I'm kind of becoming more knowledgeable. And I think a lot of people should be is quantum. Not just quantum computing, but quantum sensing and quantum communications, which Nokia is actually doing really interesting work in. So, you know, I'm not an expert by any means, I do not claim to be, but it's a place where I'm spending more and more time educating myself on what it means. So. So don't ask me for any expert advice on this one.
- [34:50]
Jeff
You.
- [34:51]
Kathy Hackl
Because I'm still very much a pupil.
- [34:53]
Jeff
Got it, got it. We'll steer clear of Quantum for today. So maybe coming back to spatial computing though, because this is one Kathy that's been to me, there's been a pattern which is we've had. And I apologize because I'm about to use a baseball analogy and I hate baseball analogies, but it feels like we've had an awful lot of at bats for spatial computing every year. Some, you know, whether it's Google or Snapchat or Microsoft, there's a new VR, there's a new AR and oh, this is the one that, you know, there's a press tour. It's so exciting. The form factor is different. Something's different and you know, swing and a miss. Right. Or maybe that's unfair, but it hasn't taken off in any sort of like consumer good way. Why is that? Like what are these organizations getting wrong and has anything changed in the past few years where you expect the trajectory to actually, you know, tighten, where we're actually going to, you know, we're going to make contact there and something's going to take off? Or do you expect to see in the next five to 10 years just, you know, another dozen of these devices that are interesting but, but don't hit the mark?
- [36:01]
Kathy Hackl
I think there's so much money now invested in what is going to replace the mobile phone that it's not up to us. It's whatever Silicon Valley decides to bring us, which is good and bad in some ways, you know, so I don't know if we have a. I don't know. I do agree with you. I think there's been so much hype and so many hits and misses of this is the year. This is the year. I feel like every year is the year of XR and every year I hear like VR is dead. Like I feel like I hear that every single. And I've been in this industry almost a decade, like more than a decade now. So every year is the same thing. I would say those are some of the things. I think it's a form factor issue. I think it's the optics are not there yet. Um, you know what, what the meta glasses do, do they bend light so you can actually eventually have real holograms in front of you? That's really hard to do. Very few people can do that with optics right now. So those true holographic glasses that we, that are promised, like that's further into the future right now the cost is going to be expensive. The form factor is not there. It's got to look really stylish for us to eventually want to wear this on our faces or, you know, wear a device on us all the time. So I would think, I think that, I think one of the biggest issues here, that is, there's two issues here, I would say, is the fact that in order for a lot of these devices to be out there in the wild, running at the same time, you have to have connectivity that currently does not exist, right? 5G is not going to cut it, it's going to be 6G, 6G plus or you're going to need something else. So I think that that is something that most people are not thinking about. It's like if you really are going to have whatever device we end up using, millions of them, people wearing them on the edge. Like we're talking about edge, we talk about computing. You're talking about connectivity in levels we've never seen. So, yeah, that's an issue. If you don't have enough connectivity, you're not going to be able to power all these devices at the same time. We all have our phones and we're able to navigate the world because there's 5G bases and there's all these sorts of things. So I think that there's really interesting work there being done with what's called radio access Networks and putting AI compute in 5G basis to try to bring that closer to the user. But it's early days, right? So I don't think we're going to see that connectivity till, you know, maybe five years from now. So that's one. And I would say the other question, and one that I pose myself is the data centers, right? Everyone talk about data centers, data centers. When it comes to AI, if you are truly going into agentic AI and then physical AI, what these data centers are going to be able to do is power that future state, empower these devices, right? And at the end of the day, we are going to need a lot of data, which requires a lot of data centers and that requires a lot of energy. So there is that push pull of like, do we really want this? Right? So, so I would say those are some of the things I would say. But yeah, it's, it's a form factor issue. It's a fact that, you know, the devices, you have to have a problem that you need to solve, right? Instead of like, oh, I'm finding, I'm trying, yeah, like, what is the problem this solves for me at this point, nothing.
- [38:59]
Jeff
Well, that's. And that's, that, that's exactly what I'm caught up on. Because you know, you asked this question which I think is what a lot of the Silicon Valley firms are asking, which is what's going to replace the mobile phone. And to me like that is such a non like consumer facing question. That's such like a business question. It's like, how do we make more money? Like how do, like how do we. Yeah, solution in search of a problem. And to me, I'm going to rant here for a second and maybe I'm totally wrong. This is interesting to me. Steve Jobs never approached it like I need something to replace the imac, therefore I'm going to create the iPhone. It's more about what could we unlock by people having all the power of a computer in the palm of their hands? Because you have to start thinking about the use case, the killer app. And I just to me, so much of what we've seen is missing that and coming back to it again. That's why I'm sort of excited about the Google Beam stuff. But I don't know, that's the test I use when I look at some of these things is like, why should I as a consumer be excited versus just like. And I work with an awful lot of tech geeks and they're like, the tech is exciting to them. But come on, are you ever going to get to scale just because the tech itself is exciting?
- [40:15]
Kathy Hackl
Yeah. And I fall into those groups. Right. I speak in a silo. Like I'm surrounded by tech people and we usually are speaking in silos of like oh my gosh, the field of view. Who cares? I don't think the consumer cares about the field of view. Right. What's the problem? There's, it's solving for them. So I will say that I do think there is a level of hope because it is Jony I've who's being brought into OpenAI with his startup company and building something. So I think there is some level of hope of like, oh, it might be a great UX and a great experience. Right. So we'll have to see. I mean I have no insider information. I don't know what he's building. Right. So we'll have to see, we'll have to see there. We've got, you know, obviously companies like Humane and Rabid that presented ideas and concepts on what could replace the mobile phone and they failed. Right. So I'm not sure, I will say from anthropological perspective, let's say this in a technologically technological History, perspective. There is a documentary that I think should be required watching for anyone in tech. It's called General Magic. I'm not sure if you watched it. General Magic. So right. It came. Okay. This, this documentary came out right around the time that Magic Leap had their massive layoff. I was one of the people at Magic Leap that got laid off. And this, this documentary called General Magic comes out that has nothing to do with Magic Lip, Magic Leap, but it is about a company that had the idea and the concept of the smartphone before anyone else did. And it failed. It raised a lot of money. It ended up failing. But a lot of the people that worked at General Magic went on to Apple and they were part of the core team that created the smartphone. Right. So it is that early beginning of something that was not solving a problem for anyone. But eventually the basis of what was created did become the smartphone. So I recommend it to anyone. General Magic. It is a fantastic watch when it comes to tech.
- [42:02]
Jeff
Cool. No, I'll check that out. I wanted to ask you. I sense you're kind of an optimist when it comes to this stuff. You're always excited about the next thing. Tech is exciting to you. I want to flip that on its head a little bit. Is there anything right now that you're seeing in tech that you think is BS or that you think is way overhyped?
- [42:22]
Kathy Hackl
That is way overhyped. Gosh, what am I a skeptic on? That's the good question. I remain so positive. I feel like I need to remain positive for my kids. In some ways, I'm like all a tech optimist. I'm not a tech. I'm not utopian. Okay, I'm not utopian in that sense. It's not all popcorn and unicorns. I'm more protopian, which is like, you know, technology in society, working together for the betterment of society. So what am I? I don't know. I. I mean, maybe this is. What I'll say is I do think that in the current state of general large language models and generative AI, it is incredible technology. AI will disrupt the world. I don't know if just LLMs are going to disrupt the world. I think it's a bigger conversation about computer vision, a lot of different parts of AI, not just LLMs. So I do see some of the valuations that baffle me that make me feel like, is, how is this sustainable in the long term? So that's one I think that people are raising towards data center construction at a really fast Speed without thinking about the, you know, the, the climate aspect of it, of you can't just continue building all these data centers, find other solutions on the way to power these things. So I would say those things. I am concerned about some of the things that I'm seeing with replacing human connection with robots or AI. That worries me immensely. You know, I still. Yeah, like there, there's actually a survey that was done recently, it said that a lot of Gen Z would marry an AI, you know, sample data, whatever. Like, there's bias there, like force. Like, I don't think all of Gen Z would say that or like half of them would say that, but. But still, like, things like that concern me, concern me when it comes to, like, if we lose what truly makes us human, like, what does this mean at the end of the day, there's also a race, I think, to, you know, using AI agents on a constant basis. I'll give you. And I'll go back to the dating example because it's obviously where I'm spending a lot of the time thinking through how to disrupt the sector is like, if my AI agent is dating your AI agent and we actually meet in the physical world, but there's no connection. Like, you know, or I don't like something like that. Right. If it's a biometric thing and I meet you, my agent says you're perfect for me. But then I meet you and it's just like, I think there's something that we still, we still to this day cannot offload to 10 technology. Right. We might one day. Right. But I think right now there's still an element to humanity. So maybe, maybe there is a premium to being human. Right. I heard Gary Vaynerchuk the other day saying that in the future we're going to pay people to walk with us, like to go take a walk with us. And that stuck with me. It stung to think about that that's something we're going to do in the future, but potentially because there is going to be a premium on human connection.
- [45:09]
Jeff
Interesting.
- [45:10]
Kathy Hackl
Yeah.
- [45:10]
Jeff
Well, no, the dating piece is really interesting and I'll come back to it for a second. I mean, and look, I've. I was fortunate enough, I'll use the word fortunate to have found a partner before like the age of like the dating apps. But I feel like anyone I talk to right now, like, has only negative things to say about like online dating and even the same apps. And I'm. Yeah, we all know what the apps are, but even the Same apps that 10 years ago I feel like had a better reputation. I don't know if they've changed or expectations have changed, but you know, it, it feels ripe for disrupt, disruption, doesn't it? Like, is that your experience?
- [45:49]
Kathy Hackl
Absolutely. So as a, you know, as a student of life and as someone that wants to disrupt that sector, I'm spending an insane amount of time looking at it, right? What works? You know, this is the thing. And I go back to this, like, if we as humans date in 3D, why are we still dating in 2D in these apps? Like, I'm making a judgment on a picture. Like, is that what really happens? I mean, you make a judgment in person, but there, at least there's a volumetric component of it and it's all your senses involved in me, you know, be judging the person in front of you. Right. I'm seeing several things. I'm seeing a revival of in person. So a lot more speed dating, a lot more social happy hours for signal singles. Like, I'm seeing a lot of that. Running clubs are hot, right? For meeting people. There's kind of this resurgence in that in person, which I think is great because that's how people used to meet. But on the other side, I see my kids who are Gen Alpha starting to date. You know, they're starting, they're starting their dating journeys at the same time as I'm going back into the, into the, you know, into the field. So. So it's interesting to watch how they're dating and how they're dating in gaming spaces, right? How they're using social media like Snapchat and things to date, all these sorts of things. I personally believe that the solution to solving, you know, the swipe fatigue is not more swipes. I think it's about interactivity and presence. Because when you're able to do an activity like a joint experience with someone, you learn something about them, right. And you can make a better judgment as to is this the right partner for me or no. So one of the things that I was proposing is creating more gaming and dating startups, especially when you talk about Gen Alpha growing up and starting to date. If they can go into these apps and yes, see the profile and stuff like that, but maybe go and do a virtual bowling date before they meet in the physical world. Virtual cooking, a virtual escape room, kind of having that experience where they're actually engaging with someone in a 3D form and kind of doing an experience together. I think that will give you a more informed decision than five pictures. Right. And a profile that was created with AI.
- [47:44]
Jeff
And I really like that. And the idea of gaming, dating I really like, I like the idea that dating doesn't have to take center stage, that it's connected to something else. And in some ways, like that's like the original form. Like, you know, the old fashioned form of dating is, you know, you meet people when you're, you know, going out with friends or dancing or whatever. But I guess that like the part that concerns me, and I know I'm not alone here, is that, you know, if you're, if you're Tinder and I'll pick on Tinder, it can be any of them. It feels like you have a perverse incentive to actually keep people on your platform and not help them find a partner and get off of it. Right. And so if it only exists and it has a financial incentive to keep you in this swiping pattern, like, isn't that less healthy than, oh, we happened to meet because we were playing Minecraft or whatever and we have this shared hobby where I was able to meet someone like minded.
- [48:38]
Kathy Hackl
There's the missed opportunity is that, let's say you match with someone in this app through the gaming aspect, right? Why not? After you match and you start creating a relationship, can you start creating kind of like almost like an album of your relationship, A virtual, like a virtual timeline of your relationship? I think there's ways to be able to use this technology for good and for increasing intimacy. So one thing that I'm launching is called the Tech Intimacy scale on how to use technology to make your relationships better. I'm starting with dating, but then eventually it's going to be parenting and eventually it's going to be at work. Right? Because I do think that right now you cannot divorce technology from your day to day, right. And yes, you can use it to make your relationships better or you can make it down to level one where it's like isolation or you're like completely, you know, using technology instead of engaging with humans. So I think that there's going to be a variation. I think what a lot of these app companies and the ones that I'm talking to, I'm like, it's not about adding more AI, it's not about that. At the end of the day, what people are craving is connection and presence and being seen. And if you add more AI and have your AI agent than my agent, I don't feel seen. Right. So I think that there needs to be a level of gaming. Let's be honest, everyone's playing games on these apps, right? So why don't we play the right type of game and add these types of experiences and then why don't you transition when a couple meets, starting to create that kind of like, virtual, you know, virtual photo album of sorts. Let's call it that. I'm still working through what that means, but ways to kind of incentivize that relationship. But it doesn't have to be like, meet someone on the app and get off the app. It could be meet someone on the app and then how do you grow that, you know, and use the tools the technology allows you to have to make your relationship better? So. So, yeah, it's something that I'm spending a lot of time thinking through and something that I'm going to be kind of like, launching pretty soon because I feel strongly about this, because I'm living through it and because I'm seeing my kids starting to go into this world.
- [50:32]
Jeff
I love that. And to me, it ties together so much of what we've talked about today, which is that human connection and intimacy, like, these are the reasons that technology is there at all at the end of the day. And it feels like if you get that right, there's so much to be gained for, you know, for individuals, for people. And if you get that wrong, then, you know, who care. You know, we either end up in a, you know, in a state of apathy or, you know, worse off than we were before. So I love that message for, you know, individuals or even for, you know, technology leaders. Listening to this. Kathy, I wanted to say thank you so much for joining today. This has been super insightful and I really appreciated our conversation.
- [51:12]
Kathy Hackl
Thank you. I love being here and, yeah, I'm glad we took some turns that we weren't expecting, but I think it's going to be useful to folks out there.
- [51:19]
Jeff
Absolutely.