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Digital Disruption with Geoff Nielson
Unlocking the Brain: Tan Le on Neurotech, AI & Human Potential
01:02:28
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- [00:01]
Jeff
Hey everyone. I'm super excited to be sitting down with Thanh Lev. She's one of the world's leading experts and pioneers in brain computer interface. So connecting technology right to your brain. This is one of the craziest frontiers in tech right now. And what's cool about Thanh is she has actually developed the technology to make it happen. What I want to know is, once you cut through the hype, how advanced is this technology really? What can it do for us? And, and why the hell would I let a company plug a device into my brain? It should be an amazing conversation. Let's find out. Thanh, thanks so much for joining us today. Super excited to have you on the show. I wanted to just start by asking kind of the big question, which is what can you tell us about the state of brain computer interface, or BCI in 2025? Where are we right now?
- [00:49]
Thanh Lev
So it's a really exciting time to be working on brain computer interface technologies. Both in terms of the implantable space, we're seeing a lot of exciting progress there. And on the non invasive side, with the introduction of AI and the explosion of what's possible with AI, we're seeing a lot of interesting conversions now in the BCI space in terms of using some of these new frontier models to decode what was really complex sets of electrical signals. And so we're starting to see really interesting evolution both in the non invasive and as well as the invasive bci. And so at some point, I think we'll start to see more adoption in this, of this technology in the next few years.
- [01:35]
Jeff
So tell me a little bit more about that form factor. You know, you talk about non invasive as well as invasive. How is it changing and what are some of the innovations that have, you know, come to be in the last few years?
- [01:47]
Thanh Lev
Sure. So brain computer interface technology is something that's pretty exciting for, for a lot of people. It's intrinsically interesting, this idea that you can use your brain to control some sort of digital or physical experience. And so from the invasive side, which is not an area that we work on, we've seen really exciting developments with synchron neuralink, both very, very exciting technologies where you're putting some sort of like a neural lace or just a small implant into the brain that allows the implant to restore function where it's already been lost. And that's pretty amazing technology. I think on the non invasive side, which is where we're focused on, the form factor is a radical departure from what we've seen in the past. And I think this is where it's truly game changing because a lot of the non invasive technology has been anchored around electroencephalography, which is EEG for short. And this is essentially just changes in voltage fluctuations that you can observe from the surface of the scalp. Now when you're measuring non invasively, what you're typically using is a, an array of sensors placed on the surface of the head and it can look like a cap. If people have had sleep studies or if they think about something of the imagery they might have on of an EEG system, it's like a hair net with array of sensors and it tethers the user to a station, to some sort of stationary equipment. That was the kind of the standard conventional system. We have over the last decade or so seen a whole range of different types of devices that have made it more skeletal. But now we're starting to see devices like these, which is really very small and very much like what you're wearing in your ears now. But this is going to be the new form factor for everyday consumers. Right. You're going to be able to wear devices that are really small, true wireless, that are multifunction, that have this sort of utility of being a microphone, a headphone, but also can scan your brain at the same time. And I think the form factor allows us to imagine a world where millions of people will start to adopt and use this technology. And that's why BCI is so exciting to be talking about today.
- [04:16]
Jeff
It's so cool. And the form factor to me is so interesting. And I guess in some ways, at least in my mind is maybe one of the barriers that people have to adoption or has created some of the backlash around this. And I don't know if you've heard this kind of firsthand or secondhand, but certainly when you think about, you know, the invasive ones, things like neuralink, I mean, certainly there's no shortage of amazing things it can do. But there's this kind of, this kind of, you know, almost existential angst that we're going into this, you know, technology dystopia where, you know, we've got these devices in our brain and, you know, who wants Elon Musk in our brain?
- [04:54]
Thanh Lev
Right, right.
- [04:55]
Jeff
Do you see this new form factor as replacing invasive as, you know, coexisting and you know, what's your response to some of the, that the negativity or backlash around this kind of technology?
- [05:06]
Thanh Lev
Yeah, so I think that there will be a coexistence of this technology. I don't there's 7 billion people on the planet. Not everyone will subscribe to this notion that I want an implant in my brain, even if it's going to augment my abilities right at the moment, it's really about restoring function. And so depending on the cost, depending on the access, I can't really see a world where it will be universally available. What I do think will be possible is given the form factor of this device and the nature of the, the technology, the underlying technology being eeg, it's an electrical signal. You're not sending signals back into the brain. It's completely safe. That's something that I can see coexisting with the sort of, not a totally invasive technologies like implants. The nice thing about non invasive technologies is that allows us to start to chart a conversation, a dialogue around human augmentation. Right. What does brain augmentation mean to society? How do we navigate the questions around cognitive liberties? How do we think about data rights? How do we think about what level of augmentation are we comfortable with as individuals, as communities, as a part of society? And how do we regulate or how do we manage these technologies and steward them in a way that's safe and inclusive and accessible to people, while making sure that individual freedoms are actually safeguarded and protected? Right now, I think all of these things are. As technology moves faster and faster, it becomes more incumbent on the people who are inventing this field to have this really active conversation with the users of this technology around. How do we think about, you know, bringing this technology into the marketplace? And so this is one of the things that I'm that most excites me about the non invasive technology is that we get to have this conversation early. There's still a lot of agency in, in terms of how users can actually use this technology. Because it's not invasive. You can take the technology off very easily. Right? You can choose. You have a lot of freedom to say, hey, I want to track my brain to do X, Y, Z. And I'm not comfortable with tracking my brain for Y. Right. And I'm prepared to share my data for X, but not for these types of scenarios. And so you have a lot of choice and agency when it's a device that you choose to put on yourself and you can very easily remove the device. And that allows us all to think about, well, what does this look like? And then as we think about the space around invasive technology, if we were to start to implant more people with devices, what does this mean? But it's really hard to take this massive leap forward and think, wow, I'm going to jump right into this world where we're going to have implants in our brains and it's going to be managed by a corporation. And we really haven't had the opportunity to really think and grapple with some of these really philosophical concepts around what does it mean to be human, right. And at the same time we've got all of these advancements in artificial intelligence that's happening right now. And so what I often say is, you know, today the next, this evolution that we're experiencing is no longer just simply defined by technology. For the last few decades, we have seen technology really drive the revolution that we experience in our daily lives. But the next revolution isn't just simply about technology, it's about intelligence. And so we're moving into this decade or this whole chapter of human evolution where, you know, our, our existence is going to be about this sort of co evolution of digital and biological intelligence. And so we need this ability and this opportunity to think about what this co evolution looks like. Right. So I think it's a really, it gives us an opportunity to think about some very complex questions early.
- [09:20]
Jeff
Very big questions too. Right. And I was wondering if you could unpack a little bit more as we talk about intelligence and what that means and this kind of co development. What does that mean to you? And why should people, why should the average listener or anyone interested in this, why should they be excited about it and thinking about how it can benefit them in their life?
- [09:46]
Thanh Lev
So for the longest time, and I think even today, we believe that the human brain is the most complex system in the known universe that we know of today. Right. It's capable of incredible feats. It really is the seed of the self. It defines, you know, our entire sense of being. Right? Our, our, the world that we experience is not an objective one, it's a subjective one that's based on the mental model that our brain creates of the world. And so each of us and our own perception, our own experience is really shaped by this three pound organ that sits inside our heads at the same time. Over the last, you know, what's been breathtaking the last three years is this massive exploration and development and revolution in artificial intelligence. And this whole space around generative AI has been very, very exciting to see what we can do with large language models and now with multimodal usage of this technology so that you can start to see how image and videos can be and sound can be generated as well. Right. All alongside this, this, this domain so it's a very exciting kind of evolution and revolution in many ways. But you can, the way I think about it is you've got this digital intelligence, this artificial intelligence that we're creating, and at the same time you've got this natural biological intelligence that has existed and has been part of human evolution for millions of years, right? So we, when we think about our brain, it's nature's way of evolving, it's our way, it's our response to genetics, because genetics takes a very long time. And with modernization, the brain is our way of responding to this fast moving environment. We're going to get to a point now where our modernization, our world is even moving faster than it's ever moved before. Right. The last few years, the pace of change feels like it's exponentially moving faster and faster. It's really accelerating. And so this is how, the way I think about it is we are getting to a point where we need to see both of these types of intelligence evolving together. And so this notion of some sort of co pilot or now, you know, we're, now we've kind of leapfrogged beyond this notion of cognitive copilots, which was kind of what people had used early on when generative AI was introduced. And now we're starting to see this idea of agentic workflows, right? So but I, what I, the way I think about this notion of cognitive copilot is this idea that can we use AI in a way that's more like a humanistic intelligence, right? So that these two systems can actually work together as opposed to being separate entities. So if you think about some of the old original writing by Marvin Minsky, one of the early, you know, founders of, of artificial intelligence, this is the kind of world that he was talking about, this notion of humanistic intelligence, where, you know, artificial intelligence and our biological intelligence aren't just separate entities, but they can co evolve in a way that is quite symbiotic. And so I think this is the world that we're moving towards where you really have this notion of humanistic intelligence where yes, AI is really useful and helpful to augment parts of our work that's very toilsome. And you also have the unique parts that is intrinsically human that we can kind of use in combination of together to create something that's much more than the sum of its parts.
- [13:43]
Jeff
So I love that as a principle and it's really, really exciting to think about how these two components can start to work together and make us better as people or in some way enrich our lives. Can you share a little bit? And maybe some of the use cases or some of the scenarios that we're finding are already starting to emerge where we're able to see people actually adopting this sort of technology or at least a potential use case in the future for it.
- [14:13]
Thanh Lev
Yeah, so there's just so many use cases. So one of the things that started me down this route of working in brain computer interface technologies was the idea of being able to restore function where it has been lost. Right. And so we've worked with people who have limited mobility who maybe as a result of an injury or an accident, lost their ability to move or drive a car. And we've been able to have really exciting scenarios where a, and a person was able to after, you know, over 20 years of not being able to drive after due to a carjacking incident in Brazil, being the first person in the world to drive an F1 car around a racetrack using just our technology and you know, a, a car that had been rigged up, right? No steering wheel, no pedals, just his brain and senses around the car. And that's really quite incredible to see that someone can, can use a non invasive device, use the, you know, somewhat. I, I consider the brain computer interface detections that we have now still relatively early rudimentary implic, you know, starting points. Right. Just early proof of concepts of what is possible with bci. But you're already starting to see some really exciting ways that this technology can be used. And then we, we've seen in the same sort of environment a, the same sort of technology being used by a Twitch streamer to play a very complex video game, an RPG called Elden Ring and Re and beat the boss character, right? That's really, really hard. And she was able to play through the game, beat the boss, all using a 14 channel non invasive EEG. That is pretty incredible because I think all of these, you know, you think of gaming applications in this context, there's a lot of people excited about playing games. But you know, maybe mind control is one aspect of it, but then it's the, on one hand you've got this ability to move the digital world, the physical world with your mind, with some simple commands. But at the same time, the insight that you're getting into the, the user's brain activity during that time, that is the, the piece that I think is most interesting because for the first time we're getting a window into the actual living, evolving brain as it's responding to the real world. And that Is to me the biggest game changer because our brain is designed to evolve over the course of our life. And one of the biggest challenges with this system is that it's constantly changing. It's made and it's designed to evolve. And so if you have a system like we have today in healthcare, where we only study brains when there's something wrong with it, or we only scan your brain or even look at your brain when something's wrong with it, let's say you have a sleep challenge or you have an injury like a concussion or a traumatic brain injury, you might have your brain scanned. But if you are able body, healthy person, typically you won't have your brain scanned. That's where I think the use cases become really, really exciting because we're starting to get a window into how the brain evolves over the lifespan and it allows us to start to see the know one, how the brain changes. And that's fundamentally very interesting. But we're also able to identify as part of that potential markers for early cognitive decline. And these are, these markers are really interesting because cognitive performance starts to decline very subtly, very silently from our 30s. And so for most of the adult population, this is something that we should all care about. And now we have, you know, rings, watches that kind of help us track our cardiovascular health. But the most vital asset that we have, our brain, we haven't had the tools to track. So I think this is something that's really exciting and it opens up the potential for applications in the workplace. It has applications in industrial settings for safety, it has applications in learning and educational sectors. So there's a lot of potential in and use cases that it opens up downstream because of, as you said, Jeff, at the very beginning, the form factor. Right. The form factor itself has been a massive limitation. I've been working in this space for over 10 years and you know, I have, you know, 14 channel EEGs, five channel EEGs sitting in my office. But how often would I wear it? Probably once a week. You know, if there's this particular study that we're, that we're looking at. But with these, this new device, I'm collecting data on my brain several hours every day. So I think it's pretty game changing to be able to have a form factor that enables that.
- [19:43]
Jeff
It sounds super, super exciting. And it's really interesting to hear about the use cases in terms of how an individual can use the technology, but also how we can push science and medicine forward by potentially collecting more and more information about the brain that really excites me at a humanistic, humankind level. At the same time, there's. I can sense, maybe there's a bit of tension for people who say, okay, I'm really excited about, you know, the doors we unlock in research and medicine. But at the same time, I'm not comfortable with the idea that you're studying my brain and you're sending data away about my brain, right? Like, if I'm someone who's, like, in cognitive Decline in my 40s, in my 50s, maybe I'm still in the workforce. I don't want that revealed. Right. Maybe that threatens my livelihood. How do you. How do you see those kind of coexisting and how do you marry that? In a way, your data has to.
- [20:41]
Thanh Lev
Belong to you, right? You have to have agency over your data. Our job is to provide insights to you so that you can better look after your brain. You can protect your brain. You can keep its resilience. Our job is not to share it with your, you know, employer or your friends even. Right? That's. If you want to share it, it's incumbent on you to decide who and how you want to share it. It's not up to us to share it. Our job is to, you know, help you understand your brain and how it's changing and what activities you're participating in, how that's actually shaping your brain over the lifespan so that you can make better, more informed choices to look after your brain. Because that's the. That. That's the ultimate goal for us, is to make sure that, you know, we can solve the challenge that exists today at a macro level, that one in three people will have some sort of. Will experience some sort of neurological impairment in their lifetime. That's a really scary number. So in my family of three, so my husband, myself, my little girl, it's really terrifying to know that one out of the three of us will be impacted by some sort of neurological impairment in our lifetime. Right? That. That's a really sobering number when it comes down to that little, tiny little family unit. And that's the number of people that this affects. And so we've got to have better ways of looking after our brain. We need to have better tools. The technology is there now for us to do that. It's really about making sure that the players in this space act in a responsible manner so that trust and confidence is built up in the community. I think that's very, very important. Because at the end of the day, you're absolutely right, Jeff. You don't want this Data shared for the wrong reasons. Right. You don't want somebody who you have no intention of sharing that data with to know some very intimate details about your cognitive state. I certainly don't want, you know, even if I'm just navigating the Internet for someone to know, you know, that kind of piqued my interest. I really don't want them to know that level of intimate detail. It's fine for me to know and for me to have insight into myself, that's very. That's actually quite helpful for me to know, you know, what's emotionally charged, what. What things. Right. Really captivate my mind, share I will, which parts of the information that I'm reading gets caught my emotional interest and then it's going to be kind of locked into my memory faster and that's kind of be able to be recalled more effectively for me. That's interesting for me to know, especially when I'm trying to learn a language or let's say I'm doing duolingo and I'm not really focused. It's great if I can go back to those sessions and it just knows, right. This is. I can see these tools being really helpful for me, but not to be used against me. And so that's the key, right? So if I want to share that information with my mom or my sister or my husband, sure, fine. But I've got to have that choice. And I think that's the key is finding for all of us who are working in this space. That's what we're trying to design for, is this notion that, you know, the data belongs to the user. Our job is to make sure that we can provide the best service that we can, given the information that we're getting back from the user. But they need to be able to make the decision as to how they want to share that data. And we're very careful about how it's shared as well. Because. Because we don't want. Let's say, for example, you say, hey, I want to share my specific data so that I can play this game or I can take this meditation activity. Well, we only want to share that portion of data when you're doing the meditation activity or when you're playing that game and only the data sets that's necessary for that interaction and not everything else. Right. Because you don't want to inadvertently share all of the other things that you might not necessarily want to share. So you've got to kind of design in privacy by design as a part of the way you're thinking about these systems.
- [25:10]
Jeff
Got it. No, it makes complete sense. And I'm very happy in some ways to hear how front and center this is for you as you think about designing this type of interface. I did want to flip to the other side of this, which is you said something earlier which was that, if I heard you correctly, this is potentially an opportunity for 7 billion people. This is not just for people who have been through a traumatic injury. There's value here. There's something that every person on the planet can get out of a device like this. I mean, first of all, do you agree with that? Is that a statement you stand behind?
- [25:46]
Thanh Lev
Yeah, absolutely. This is why we created the technology and this is why we specifically chose EEG as the underlying technology. Because it's something that's safe. It's very similar to an ecg. Right. So an electrocardiogram. So it's still looking at an electrical signal. Instead of looking at the heart, it's looking at the brain. So it's a very safe type of measurement because we're not sending any signals in. And we chose that very specifically because we wanted to be able to use it, as many people to use it as possible.
- [26:19]
Jeff
Right. So with that in mind, I mean, do you have kind of an elevator pitch or like, what do you think is going to be the primary reason that people say, sign me up, I need one of those, I want to wear one of those. What's the top line benefit there?
- [26:38]
Thanh Lev
For us, it's really about safeguarding brain health and resilience over the lifespan. So this is the, the, at the heart of what we do when we're thinking about the consumer space, every single person wants to, should want to safeguard their brain because there's no point in living, you know, a lot of, there's a lot of effort to live longer. Yes, but what's the point if you can't recognize your loved ones, if you can't have a coherent conversation? And this, the brain is very much like a muscle that we need to exercise. We need to continue to challenge, we need to look after. And so what we want to do is give tools to everyday people so that you can actually know exactly how you're using your brain. Right. We're, we're giving people metrics around their stress balance. Right. Stress is one thing that's really, really cognitive stress. We're not talking about, you know, physiological stress, we're talking about cognitive stress. So stress can be positive, but it can also be negative. Right. So you can have positive stress. So let's say just before speak, a public speaking event, you're going to feel some sort of anxiety. That's actually good. It helps you focus, it helps you perform better. That's perfectly fine. The long sustained stress, that's bad. So we actually track this notion of stress balance so that you can see how often you are in this zone of positive stress versus going into this really negative stress. And if it's prolonged durations, you need to kind of start to look out for that because it can be an early indicator of cognitive decline. You know, we look at mental activity. So your brain, as I said, is like a muscle. To think of it like a tracker, a step tracker, but for your brain. How much of your brain do you actually use? Are you giving it enough challenge? Because it wants challenge? It's a very sophisticated learning system. So it wants to learn. It innately, intrinsically wants to and needs to learn and be challenged. Are you challenging it? Are you giving it sufficient challenge so we can track that for you? So you can see how. Oh yeah, I'm. You're at the 90th percentile for my age group or am I kind of fledgling in the 20s and 30s? What can I do better to kind of get it up there into the, the, the top end of the spectrum? And then we track cognitive fitness, which is essentially how does your brain, how does it recover? Right. Of course we're going to need to use your brain. Sometimes going to be a heavy day, sometimes going to be a little bit less and some recovery time. But how to, how does it perform over a, not in the, in bursts, but over a sort of a three week period so that you can start to see some trends emerging in terms of your cognitive fitness. And so there's a lot of activities that you can participate in as well. But the idea is that gives you a general way to understand how you're using your brain so that you can look after your brain better. And hopefully we can all maintain a cognitively resilient brain for as long as possible.
- [29:41]
Jeff
So with that in mind, do you see this in your mind as an extension of some of the existing fitness wearables that people have? There's different form factors, whether it's a ring or a band, or does something about the fact that it's your brain make it fundamentally different from those so.
- [29:59]
Thanh Lev
You can think about it like a wearable tracker. The only thing is no wearable tracker actually is able to give you insight into your brain. They can try to give analogs for how well you sleep. It can give you analogs for your readiness, which is based on your heart rate and your sleep patterns. But it's hard to be able to know in the moment how your brain is actually tuning in. Is it able to pay attention? Is it really cognitively stressed by this activity or not? Right. The, the actual measurement and the insight of what, how you're using your brain is very difficult to get an analog for using your heart or your temp, your skin temperature as a proxy. And so the, the biggest difference is that we're actually measuring your brain and the activity in your brain directly as opposed to using other analogs for that. And so I think it's, it's a, it's. But yes, it's. Think about it in the same way, except you're not measuring your heart or that organ, you're measuring your brain, which I think is the most important thing that we need to track. And it's a missing piece. Right. It's a missing part of the puzzle in terms of our overall well being.
- [31:19]
Jeff
Right. So this in some ways is kind of the next frontier or the final frontier of understanding ourselves and our own health.
- [31:27]
Thanh Lev
Absolutely right. Yeah. Think about that in that way, for the first time, we will have a window into our, our brain and we'll be able to look after our brain. We'll have unprecedented information about how our brain is changing and evolving based on the, the, the lived experience that we have every day.
- [31:46]
Jeff
It's. Yeah, it's so amazing. And there's, as you said, there's just so many things it can potentially unlock for us. I'm thinking more about use cases. I know there's a few more that have been on your mind. Some of the ones I'm thinking about are workplace wellness and safety. Can you talk a little bit more about some of the applications in those spaces?
- [32:05]
Thanh Lev
Yeah. So if you think about safety in the workplace or accidents in the workplace, there is, you know, you could get repeated, you know, stress injury, Right. From doing a task over long periods of time repeatedly. But most of the really bad accidents happen because you've lost your attention, whether you are distracted, whether you're task switching and you've lost focus on the primary task or you're fatigued. And so that is really, really critical. And the brain is the best place to actually measure that. Right. So yes, you could have repeated strain injury and things like that, and that can be quite debilitating. But I think one of the, the scariest types of injuries and accidents that happen in the workplace happen when you lose your attention. And in that sort of industrial setting, we're not talking about knowledge workers in particular in this case. Right. But that's really, really helpful to be able to have an indication so that you can stop equipment and prevent injury when people have lost their attention. And we've seen this with drivers, for example, where we are able to track drivers on the road and yes, they're paying attention, right, to the driving, but then they, they task switch and they might change the music channel or they might grab something from the back seat or. And every time you task switch, you lose the ability to kind of pay attention back to the primary task. And on a. When you're driving very quickly, that can, that can kill you, basically. And so really raising awareness, even on the roads, has been really, really, really effective with this technology in the past. And that's what we've done on the safety side in the workplace. For knowledge workers, it's really about understanding burnout. Right. So if you think about the, the work that we do and then the level of cognitive requirements that exist in today's modern workplaces, it's really, really important that we actually understand and take care of our burnout before it's too late. Un. It's unlike the scales where you can hop on and you can say, oh, wow, maybe I shouldn't have that cake, or maybe I won't have a glass of wine because I'm one or two pounds over what I want to be, right? You can modulate very easily if you just, you can. You, or you don't fit into your jeans or something like that, but with your brain, it's really, really difficult. We, we start to kind of get used to a certain type of work and the, just the relentless nature of what we're doing, and we try to push ourselves that much harder. And it's only when we take 10 days off. And in the US what's really amazing for me in North America in particular, because I'm from Australia, we actually have longer breaks. And what was really surprising to me when I moved to the US Is how uncommon it is for people to take long breaks. But when you take a long break, that's when you finally realize after say, five or six days of doing absolutely nothing, that you realize how highly strong you were because you realize, wow, it took me that much time to notice how hard I have been running right mentally. And so it's quite difficult for us to notice these metrics. And so one of the nice things about having this is I can actually see it. I can see it in my Statistics, which weeks are really grueling for me and the types of tasks. And I can really start to modulate when I take a break, even if I'm doing a pomodoro, I've just been cognizant of, okay, I'm going to do 52 minutes of really intense focus work and then I'm going to give myself, my brain a break, go for a walk around the block, right? Go up and down the stairs, do something that just gives my brain that mental break, and I come back more refreshed. That's so much more helpful than just trying to work through. And we've worked with organizations like Dell to actually study the potential of using breaks to prevent burnout. And what we found was very. Something quite intuitive, right? If everyone, if you keep working, there will be a point where you will experience cognitive fatigue. And if you keep trying to work through it, your cognitive performance will actually decline. Whether you try, try to work, keep working or not. If you take a break and you come back, you actually come back slightly lower than where you picked off, but you actually will do better than if you had kept working. But if you actually take breaks that is kind of powered by AI, where we actually understand and we are tuned into what kind of breaks best suit you, and you take the breaks when we recommend them to you based on when your brain needs it, you actually come back better than you were before you stopped, right? And so you're actually gaining a lot of productive time, not by working more, but actually by taking the necessary breaks. My 5 to 15 minute breaks throughout the day can do miracles for your productivity. But we kind of need the tools because you don't want to just take random breaks all over the day, especially want to take really thoughtful breaks that help you perform at your best. And what I found that's most amazing for me is just the, the time blocking. It's the ability to kind of block out time for deep work because we need that. Otherwise it's just so frenetic. You're kind of task switching all day long and you're. And doing a whole bunch of different things and responding to emails and doing that sort of thing. But I kind of like to do that in the chunk and then have really good focus time for deep work. And that's really, really important. I find that's when I can be most productive. So it's nice to be able to kind of see that and find the optimal time during the day to be able to do that for myself.
- [38:11]
Jeff
I love that. And it's so important and so overlooked. I was talking to someone, I think it was Daniel Pink or something who was talking about this mindset shift that a break is not an interruption to your productivity, it's actually a component of your productivity. Right. That it actually, it makes you more productive. And so it's so fascinating. That's actually being supported by the data researchers.
- [38:34]
Thanh Lev
Absolutely right. Because you know, so by taking those five to 15 minute breaks, you're actually gaining three hours of productive time out of a 40 hour work week. Right. So it's not by working more. And he's right. That it is a component and it's. Yeah, it's not actually taking time away from, from work. It's actually a necessary part. We're not a machine. We do need to, to, you know, look after our bodies and our minds and nurture that engine and that asset so, so that it can work optimally and perform.
- [39:07]
Jeff
So on that note, you know those last two use cases, there's one that's very employee focused. It's very us as people focused. As an individual, how can I be more productive? How can I know myself better? How can I take better care of my mental health? The safety one, I guess it's us focused, but a little bit of it is almost employer focused. How can we run a safer organization? In the use cases you've seen, do you see kind of an enterprise or a business connection here? What's the relationship between organizations and this technology? Are they going to be playing a big role here or is it purely kind of person to person?
- [39:45]
Thanh Lev
Oh, absolutely. There is a lot of enterprise use cases. So on the from the workplace well being standpoint. Absolutely right. You, a lot of organizations want to better understand how their employees can, how to create even better workplaces that support different types of work. So we've done collaborations with jll, for example, to really understand how do you actually design workplaces that kind of honor individuals that, that spend time in those environments? Can we create environments that are really far more collaborative, that kind of take down the stress in high intensity or high pressure conversations? Can you create environments that really support teamwork and collaboration? Can you create environments that really support deep work for when people come in, but they do need that potential that time to just cocoon themselves to do that, that deep work? And so being able to understand and design for that and, and recognize the brain signatures that are associated with those states really helps organizations design for the individuals that use that space. Right. So we've done a lot of work from that standpoint. We've also done work with enterprise, which is a completely different area outside of the workplace wellness area, but more around product intelligence. So think about the insights that you can get, right? Every single organization exists to create some sort of, to, to provide some sort of product. Whether it's a digital product, a physical product, or a service to end customer, it's still some sort of product that you're trying to provide for a user. And it's quite difficult to know what users feel about your product. A lot of the conventional methods we use around surveys, questionnaires, focus groups, kind of fall short of really understanding the true experience that the customer has about a product. And so we're able to help organizations get true insight through brain activity and brain measurement. Right? How someone is actually experiencing a product, you know, the friction points that exist, right? When does the frustration kick in? At what moment, you know, when are they most excited and can you sustain that? You know, if you're creating a, a movie or a show or a TV show, how do you actually create and create that journey through that narrative in a way that really appeals to the audience segments? And it's quite interesting. I remember sitting in one of the, the studies where, you know, we had brain scanners on and we also had a focus group session afterwards. And it was interesting how much more nuance we could get from brain, the brain information because we knew exactly which character, which individual, how individuals responded to when the, the character was murdered versus what they were saying in the focus group session, which kind of gravitated to one central theme, but kind of missed a lot of nuance that was revealed in the actual data. So I think there's a lot that enterprises can also glean from using this technology in a completely different way. More around product intelligence as opposed to for workplace wellness.
- [43:24]
Jeff
It's super, super cool. And as someone who has a background in product and in marketing, you know, my gears are turning because I'm thinking about like, oh yeah, like I would want to know that about my customers or my, you know, potential customers. I still find myself coming back to this central tension of people wanting people wanting these tools for themselves, but worried about, you know, organizations being invited into their brain. My thought tan, as you were talking about some of these stories is, is I have to imagine the day is coming soon or it's already here where an organization is going to say if you want to be employed with us or you want to be employed in this role, it is required that you have a brain computer interface, that you have a device that you wear for this. And I don't know if it's already here or not. But I mean, my mind, and I like, my mind immediately goes to like severance, which I know, like the, you know, which is, which is not. It's a great show, but that's, that's not what this is. But it's really easy, I think, for people to imagine that there's this nefarious. There's this nefarious use versus how do I keep people safe? The newspaper headlines write themselves. And so my question for you is, given that we're going to be approaching this and we believe that the benefits here favor the individual, how do we, how do we tell that story? How do we bring people on board without creating this backlash of get my company out of my brain?
- [45:00]
Thanh Lev
I think it has to start with the fact that the individuals need to kind of sign on for this first. Right. And I actually find that the distance now between a CEO and an individual in that organization is very short. That distance, that power distance is very short. And so organizations need to trade on trust and reputation and credibility and authenticity more and more so. And I find that the players that have true longevity in any domain need to have that in order to survive long term. And so I actually, I have a stronger faith in humanity and in our own innate sense of justice and what's right for the greater good. And so I don't think that organizations that will unless they're using it as a way to protect employees. So if, let's say, for example, you're operating heavy equipment and you need to wear a cap, you're driving on the roads and you're doing long stretches, let's say you're driving a truck across the country and we need to make sure that you're, you're actually not sleeping at the wheel for your own safety, but for the safety of others where there's really strong considerations for that, I think people will tolerate and accept that that is part of the role that I am participating in, a role that requires me to hold myself to certain standards. And that means that I want to be in my best peak, you know, at my peak cognitive state when I'm driving across the country or something like that, or if I'm operating heavy machinery. But for knowledge workers, I think if you go too far and you use it as a surveillance tool, I don't think that the company will last. I think the backlash as society will be too great. You won't. You know, there was a maybe the war on talent is not as Strong in some areas right now we might feel that way. But I actually think that there is always an innate war on the best talent. Right? There is always, no matter what the economic environment is, there is always going to be room for you if you are the best. And every company strives to attract and retain the best individuals for their organization. And so you need to hold yourself to a certain level and standard in order to attract that caliber of talent. And so I don't believe that we will kind of go down to, you know, the bottom of the barrel, like, okay, everyone's going to be tracked and monitored because we're just cogs in a wheel. I actually think that the trend now with the augmentation and the use of AI is, is that we will have less need for. We will have so much automation that the jobs that will be available will require people who have strong talent. And for those people to want to join organizations, they will need to be really treated really well. And so part of the equation is to say, hey, we care about your, your well being. We're going to give you the tools to support that, but it's really up to you, right? We'll give you the tools. And so I know a lot of organization offer, will offer tools and options for employees to, you know, go to the gym and do, you know, care for themselves. But it's not a, it's a choice that you have as as opposed to something that you, we're going to use to survey you. So I don't think that will actually happen. And maybe I'm too optimistic about humanity, but I think that the trends are such that we won't see that happen because we will need to have, we will need to preserve the best minds in the organization.
- [49:07]
Jeff
I do, I love that optimism. And you know, you've got a unique take on this and you put a lot of emphasis even for employees on the individual and what the individual brings here, which is really, really cool. And I've heard you say before tan that when you think about leadership, when you think about what people can bring to an organization, you think about the value that asking candid questions can bring. The value of being an outsider or having that kind of individualistic experience can actually drive. And to me that's refreshing because it's, you know, for anyone listening, it's kind of the opposite of being a cog in a machine, right? It's saying you as an individual bring something. And so I'm curious, you know, in your own life as a leader, how that's impacted you and how that's impacted the people you know, you work with and surround yourself with.
- [50:00]
Thanh Lev
I think we're all a product of our lived experience. And for me, I've always somehow found myself as an outsider in many cases. And I, most of the. Throughout my career and when I was younger, I saw it as a big impediment to my, my, you know, to my comfort. I never felt like I fit in. I always felt like I was an underdog. But I think as I spent more and more time kind of fitting into my own shoes and getting more comfortable within my own skin, I realized that I needed to embrace this much more. Because the diversity of perspectives, the difference in ideas that come from not being the expert in the room, the incumbent allows you to really, really see things differently, to challenge the status quo. And I often think when I think about my little girl, I want her to think that she can create the world that she wants. Right. Rather than to accept it for what it is. And so that that mindset that you can, you can make things better or you can do things on your own terms is really, really great. And so for us as an organization, we like a combination of institutional knowledge. That's really important. Right. The people that have been here for a while allows that continuity of thought, of vision, of purpose. But we do want to sprinkle that with fresh perspectives because that outside in view is so valuable. The first six months, when someone has just joined the organization, they have so many questions out of true, genuine curiosity. And that's what I love the most, the genuine curiosity that a newcomer has. Right, Right. Why do we do it like that? And it's such a great question because why do we do it like that? Maybe we've done it like that because someone, you know, five years ago thought that was a good idea then, or they just took a shortcut. And that, you know, just asking the question from, not from a place of, you know, of criticism, but really just out of genuine curiosity is what I love the most. And I think that's what the different perspectives and the diversity of ideas brings to the table. So we love that very much. And so the outside in perspective is something we want to cultivate as much as possible. And so you need that renewal in the organization. I find it quite challenging when there's too much new and not enough of a. So you need to find that balance. Right. I do love the institutional knowledge base as well, because it provides that foundation, that understanding and that continuity. But you do need to sprinkle it with some Fresh ideas. We seek it out as much as possible.
- [53:08]
Jeff
Right. Which is awesome. And you still want to have it sounds like a culture that still binds everyone, but they're invited to make sure that they're bringing themselves and they're being an individual within.
- [53:21]
Thanh Lev
One of the things that was really interesting for me is the, the. The key for me is when you hire a new person, once you've decided that they're the right person for your organization is to. How is to quickly establish such a rapport and such a trust and confidence that they can be their full selves. That's the most important thing that you can do for a. For someone that joins your organization is empower them to be themselves and to speak their mind. Right. And to show up fully as themselves. Because, you know, when someone's new, they will. They will want to please the people that they're around. Right. They want to fit in. That's a very natural human instinct, is to want to kind of fit in and be a part of the crew. But what's really key, at least for me, is to. To somehow surround that person with enough trust and support that they feel that they can just be themselves. And that's, I think, the hardest thing that a leader needs to kind of inspire and deliver in order to bring out the best performers in that team. And so if you can do that and you can have individuals that can be them full selves as quickly as possible, then you've won, right? When you haven't been able to do that, that's when you lose and you lose on that individual's ability to fully contribute to the organization. And so I think that's really important. One of my girlfriends ran a company that she called, that's called Sora, which is like sea turtles. And I think about that all the time. I love the analog. And if you think about the treacherous path of sea turtles as they go into the sea, right. They live such long lives. If you think about a life of a turtle, it is so, so rich and long. But that trip to the ocean is treacherous, right. And so you think about every new person as like a little sea turtle, right? They're your sea turtle. You have to nurture them so that they can get into the ocean, so that they can prosper and they can contribute. They can have long longevity in the organization. But that path is really hard. So how do you make that onboarding journey as successful as possible? You've got to invest some time in that. So I think that's really important. So they're all our little sea turtles when they first join.
- [55:48]
Jeff
Wow, I've never thought about that. That's really cool. I'm still just kind of processing and digesting that. I wanted to ask you a little bit about your journey, I guess, and I know it's a little bit personal, so forgive me for you. As you told your story a little bit and you talked about being an outsider, you know, you're, you know, if I may, like, you're an Australian Vietnamese woman working in California in a high tech. And to hear you describe it, it sounds like somewhere in your journey all of those things became a superpower for you versus, you know, being any sort of, you know, drag or any sort of handicap. So I wanted to ask you when and how did that come about? And what would you say to people who are still on that journey and maybe haven't gotten to that inflection point yet to help them experience that themselves?
- [56:44]
Thanh Lev
That's really interesting. And I don't know at what moment it happened for me either, but there was one. It did eventually become a realization that when you're very unusual, right? And I remember one of the very first, when I was a. I got into law school and I remember the very first lecture that we heard from when we were the incoming students. It was around the fact that there are way too many kids wanting to do law, and way too many you think you're that, you know, because you, you need high marks to get into law and, and yes, so you think you're great, but in fact, there's way too many of you and the profession has no space for lawyers. And then he said something that was really profound. There's always room at the top. And that really stuck with me. And I think that if you really, really hone your craft and you work really, really hard, it doesn't matter what area it is. You just have to be the best. And if you're the best at what you do, it doesn't matter what it is. It could be any field, but you will be able to. There is always room for you. If you are the best, and I think that's the only thing that matters, is that if you can find that sweet spot for you where you can show up and be your absolute best and people recognize that you are the best at that thing, then that's your sweet spot. And once you found that sweet spot, there is always a place for you, right? You can be whatever it is, it doesn't matter, but you'll have a seat at the table. And that's that's the only. That's the, that's the goal. The goal is to somehow get there. And then once you are, and then if you happen to be very different at that point with, you know, like an Asian woman with. From another place, you just have an unfair advantage because you're different at that point. So I think once you have had that opportunity, you have a. You have a distinct advantage at that point because you're so unusual. And so that's. I think that's a certainly different. You've kind of fork into a different place. But I think the first goal is just to be the best. Yeah, what you do.
- [59:08]
Jeff
That's awesome. Yeah, that's really, really interesting. I really like that. So as you look out about your path forward, your journey, where it takes you from here, as you keep trying to be the best, what's most exciting to you in terms of your own personal journey as well as with this technology and where are you and where the technology go next?
- [59:31]
Thanh Lev
So we are very early on this journey. It seems strange that we've been working on this for over a decade and we still feel that we are still early on in this journey. And this is because we're very intentional in the phases that we built this technology. The first phase was really to democratize access to neuroscience technology and put it into the hands of neuroscience researchers in over 140 countries at this point. That was the. That kind of underpins everything that we do is the discovery the science of what's possible, possible with this technology. And that's, that's our first phase. The second phase is really to unlock value to enterprises and corporations. And that's what we've been. This journey over the last three years has really focused on that and unlocking value for enterprises and organizations. We're now at this inflection point where we're moving into consumers and really trying to unlock value for everyone. And so this is the next stage for us which also will open the downstream opportunities around the clinical and medical applications for private individuals as well. Because at the end of the day, if you're tracking your brain and you are able to look after it, and you're the lucky two thirds that nothing goes wrong with your brain. That's fantastic. You're going to preserve your brain at the most optimal state that it can be in. But what if you're. You happen to be in the unlucky third that has some sort of trajectory that's not where you want it to go. What can we do for you then? Well, how can we. How can we intervene? What can we do? And can we have clinical interventions at that point? And so that's where. That's where we see the future is to kind of dovetail the consumer piece with also some clinical interventions as well. So a lot to do. We are still, you know, still working. It's a work in progress. But it's very exciting and I feel really energized by what we do. I'm. I feel very blessed and grateful that I found something that it to work on that I'm truly passionate about. And it doesn't feel like work. It feels really exciting and I love it. I enjoy. I enjoy the challenge and I enjoy the potential to make a positive impact. I feel grateful for the privilege of being able to work on something things so meaningful.
- [61:51]
Jeff
Well, and it's so amazing to be able to work on something that's so net new. Right. That there's additionality here and to be actually breaking down these barriers and creating this technology and these capabilities that have never existed before. So I'm really excited to see where it goes. I'm really excited to see where you go. And I just wanted to say a big thank you for sharing, you know, your thoughts and your insights with us on the show today.
- [62:18]
Thanh Lev
Thank you for having me here. Thank you.