AI's Impact on Mental Health: A Deep Dive | Jessa White DSH #764

Summary

Digital Social Hour: AI's Impact on Mental Health – A Deep Dive with Jessa White (Episode #764)
Release Date: September 28, 2024
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Jessa White, Trauma Therapist

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Introduction

In Episode #764 of Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly engages in an enlightening conversation with Jessa White, a seasoned trauma therapist. The episode delves into the intricate relationship between artificial intelligence (AI) and mental health, exploring how technological advancements might reshape therapeutic practices and address the growing mental health crisis.

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Understanding Trauma and Its Impact

Jessa White begins by defining trauma and its pervasive presence in individuals' lives. She emphasizes that trauma can vary significantly from person to person, encompassing events from childhood to recent experiences.

[00:38] Jessa White: "Trauma can mean something different for everyone. Your trauma could be something that happened in childhood. Your trauma can be something that happened last week."

White discusses the concept of repressed memories, explaining how traumatic experiences, especially those in early childhood, can be stored subconsciously and emerge later in life through maladaptive behaviors.

[01:12] Jessa White: "Early onset childhood trauma people come in with it, and they're usually around your age or older, and they start asking questions and they start remembering things."

She underscores the critical period of brain development from ages 0 to 6, highlighting how early trauma can influence psychological and emotional growth.

[02:03] Sean Kelly: "That's crazy. Well, they say a large part of your brain is formed. Ages 0 through 6."

[02:07] Jessa White: "Of course, attachment, your psychological development, your emotional development, how you love, your needs, all of those things."

The discussion extends to Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), where White notes the shift from PTSD being predominantly associated with veterans to its broader recognition stemming from various traumatic experiences, including relational conflicts.

[02:51] Sean Kelly: "Do you see a lot of veterans right now with PTSD?"

[02:54] Jessa White: "Nowadays, most of the people that I'm seeing with PTSD have early childhood trauma... You can get PTSD from a really bad relationship."

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Gender and Therapy

The conversation transitions to the gender dynamics in seeking therapy. Jessa White reveals that while traditionally women have been more likely to seek counseling, her private practice now showcases a more balanced demographic.

[05:42] Sean Kelly: "Would you say majority of your clients are female?"

[05:45] Jessa White: "Not anymore. Luckily, I am in private practice, so I do kind of try and keep an equilibrium with race and age and gender..."

White surprises Kelly by sharing that male clients often exhibit more emotional vulnerability in therapy than their female counterparts.

[06:02] Sean Kelly: "But that doesn't mean that men aren't dealing with mental health issues."

[06:05] Jessa White: "My male clients actually cry in therapy more than women clients do."

Kelly reflects on societal programming that discourages men from showing emotions, noting a slow but positive shift in cultural attitudes.

[06:34] Sean Kelly: "Society, yeah. Just programming to be tough as men. I think most men are just like, that's a form of weakness."

White concurs, emphasizing the importance of emotional awareness and communication in relationships.

[08:21] Sean Kelly: "I find when a man says something to me like... we're doing this right now. Really? Because you're not mad. You're actually feeling insecure. And that is attractive to me."

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The Intersection of AI and Mental Health

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to exploring AI's potential in mental health support. Jessa White discusses groundbreaking research on AI's ability to act as empathetic listeners, potentially serving as companions for those battling loneliness and mental health issues.

[08:34] Sean Kelly: "Speaking of lonely people, you have an interesting take on AI."

[08:36] Jessa White: "I do. Yeah. Something that I find really interesting... we might not be able to discern or even care to discern about whether an AI robot that we're talking to is real or not."

White shares insights from her research, where she trained an AI to emulate compassionate and empathetic responses akin to a therapist's approach.

[09:51] Sean Kelly: "Virtual tours."

[10:05] Jessa White: "I was teaching the AI how to respond and ask questions using supportive reflection and cognitive reframing. And I was teaching the AI to speak to people like a therapist does a person in a session."

While acknowledging the benefits of AI in providing consistent support, White cautions against over-reliance, emphasizing that human empathy remains irreplaceable.

[10:51] Sean Kelly: "Yeah, that's tough to teach a robot."

[10:53] Jessa White: "It is. I think it's going to be great for empathetic listening... But you can't take away this... You’ll never be able to feel an AI's energy."

She envisions a future where AI companions could alleviate feelings of loneliness by offering non-judgmental, always-available support.

[15:05] Sean Kelly: "Yeah, I'm a fan. Because the biggest thing is loneliness."

[15:14] Jessa White: "Vivek Murthy... said loneliness is as dangerous, as harmful as smoking 15 cigarettes a day."

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Adolescent Mental Health Crisis

The dialogue shifts to the alarming rise in adolescent depression. Jessa White cites statistics indicating a significant increase in self-reported depression among teenagers, attributing it to various factors, including environmental concerns and the pressures of the digital age.

[16:20] Jessa White: "Current numbers are standing at about 25%... I believe that's also attributing to these kids coming out with really high levels of cortisol."

She highlights the existential dread stemming from concerns about climate change and resource depletion, compounded by the pervasive impact of social media and cyberbullying.

[17:21] Sean Kelly: "And they're growing up with social media, with cyberbullying... That's tough."

White underscores the detrimental effects of reducing individuals to mere metrics and algorithms, which can exacerbate feelings of inadequacy among youth.

[17:37] Jessa White: "Have we reduced people to a metric, to a number?... Their prefrontal cortex isn't developed enough for them to understand that I'm more than this algorithm tells me I am."

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Therapeutic Techniques and Personal Insights

Jessa White shares her approach to therapy, blending somatic interventions with traditional talk therapy to help clients release trauma stored in the body.

[21:37] Jessa White: "One of my favorite ones is maybe when you're releasing anger, actively releasing it in the room... Leaning into whatever the emotion you're feeling is."

She recounts a poignant moment with a client where her own unresolved trauma enhanced her ability to empathize and connect deeply during therapy sessions.

[20:43] Sean Kelly: "First time you met her, you felt it?"

[20:46] Jessa White: "I felt it in myself. That's my trauma."

White emphasizes that it's entirely possible—and even beneficial—for therapists to have their own trauma, provided they are actively working through it.

[18:49] Sean Kelly: "There's also a myth you can't be a therapist if you have your own trauma."

[18:50] Jessa White: "You can be a therapist with trauma. You have to be working on it."

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Modern Relationship Dynamics

The episode touches upon the trendy practice of discussing attachment styles and love languages on first dates or dating apps. Jessa White critiques this approach, suggesting it might be too premature and could hinder natural relationship development.

[23:29] Sean Kelly: "There's this viral trend of people asking on first dates for attachment styles and love languages."

[23:38] Jessa White: "They're not just asking on first dates, they're asking on dating apps now... it's like a full psychological interview before your first date."

She advocates for allowing relationships to develop organically, rather than delving into deep psychological assessments too early.

[25:09] Sean Kelly: "Right. Yeah, it is deep."

[25:20] Jessa White: "I think that we can wait on asking people their attachment style until like the bill's been paid or something."

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Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, Jessa White shares her ongoing commitment to evolving both as a therapist and as an individual. Sean Kelly encourages listeners to seek therapy if needed, highlighting the importance of mental health support in today's rapidly changing world.

[26:44] Jessa White: "I'm working on becoming a better therapist every day and a better person."

[26:51] Sean Kelly: "Thanks for watching, guys. If you need therapy, hit up Jessa, don't."

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Key Takeaways

• Trauma is multifaceted and can stem from various life experiences, with childhood trauma having long-lasting effects.
• Gender dynamics in therapy are evolving, with more men seeking emotional support and showing vulnerability.
• AI's role in mental health is growing, offering potential support as empathetic listeners but cannot fully replace human empathy.
• Adolescent mental health is in crisis, exacerbated by environmental concerns, social media, and cyberbullying.
• Effective therapeutic techniques involve a blend of somatic interventions and traditional methods, with therapists benefiting from their own self-awareness and healing.
• Modern relationship practices, such as early disclosure of attachment styles, may be premature and hinder natural relationship development.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jessa White [00:38]: "Trauma can mean something different for everyone."
• Jessa White [02:03]: "Early onset childhood trauma people come in with it, and they're usually around your age or older."
• Jessa White [05:42]: "Not anymore. Luckily, I am in private practice, so I do kind of try and keep an equilibrium with race and age and gender."
• Jessa White [06:05]: "My male clients actually cry in therapy more than women clients do."
• Jessa White [08:34]: "Something that I find really interesting... we might not be able to discern or even care to discern about whether an AI robot that we're talking to is real or not."
• Jessa White [15:14]: "Vivek Murthy... said loneliness is as dangerous, as harmful as smoking 15 cigarettes a day."
• Jessa White [22:11]: "Which a lot of somatic therapists believe that it stores in our body as kind of these frozen orbs."
• Jessa White [23:38]: "They're not just asking on first dates, they're asking on dating apps now... it's like a full psychological interview before your first date."

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This episode of Digital Social Hour offers a comprehensive exploration of the intersections between AI and mental health, providing listeners with valuable insights into trauma, therapeutic practices, and the evolving landscape of emotional support in the digital age.

Transcript

[A]

So it's very fair to say that in the future we might not be able to discern or even care to discern about whether an AI robot that we're talking to is real or not.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

We won't even care. And so we are going to have. Children born today will have an option to have an AI best friend that will remember everything about them for their entire life.

[B]

All right, guys, we got Jessa White here today, trauma therapist. We're gonna dive into what causes trauma and how to solve it, right?

[A]

Yeah, something like that.

[B]

It's a deep topic and I think we were just talking earlier. Almost everyone we know has probably gone through something traumatic in their lives.

[A]

Yeah, that's the thing, is trauma can mean something different for everyone. So your trauma could be something that happened in childhood. Your trauma can be something that happened last week.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can be experiencing trauma just being alive in the world today.

[B]

Right. There's a lot of trauma everywhere. Depends what you focus on. But the childhood trauma stuff is nuts. Cuz I just found out I had it without even realizing I had it, cuz I just thought it was normal.

[A]

And then one day you wake up and you go, this maladaptive behavior that I have isn't normal. And someone says, no, that's a trauma response.

[B]

Right. I'm sure you get a lot of patients with childhood trauma, right?

[A]

I do, yeah. That's my specialty. So usually early onset childhood trauma people come in with it, and they're usually around your age or older, and they start asking questions and they start remembering things. And we're working on repressed memories. Often, you know, the hippocampus, it shuts down a lot during trauma. So whether it's a preverbal trauma or one that happened in early adolescence, you forget it until it emerges in some, like I said, maladaptive behavior in your 40s, all of a sudden you're shaking when a car backfires and you have no idea. And then in therapy, we uncover that you were in a country with civil unrest and the sounds of bombs were your lullaby at night, but you didn't even remember that. And they'll go back and say, mom, what was going on when I was five? And then mom explains and all the pieces come together.

[B]

That's crazy. Well, they say a large part of your brain is formed. Ages 0 through 6. Right.

[A]

Of course, attachment, your psychological development, your emotional development, how you love, your needs, all of those things.

[B]

That's crazy that you're able to dive back into those memories.

[A]

Yeah. And you have to be Careful as a therapist, too. There's a growing body of research of people who can. Therapists who can even plant memories if they're not careful.

[B]

Whoa. Yeah, that's scary.

[A]

That's scary.

[B]

That's like that movie.

[A]

Which movie?

[B]

I don't know what the name of it, but the guy was planting memories in his patients and then having sex with them. It was a weird movie.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

You didn't see this?

[A]

No, I would never. No, no.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

No, I don't want to see something like that. That'll scar me. I can't. But it's the true thing. It can happen. You know, somebody who's not trained in the way they need to be can end up.

[B]

Do you see a lot of veterans right now with ptsd?

[A]

I don't know. Ptsd, it's something that. Because when it was first being studied, you know, military funding. That's why PTSD is so affiliated with veterans. But nowadays, most of the people that I'm seeing with PTSD have early childhood trauma. It's, you know, a parent that neglected them. It's bombs in the country they grew up in. It's different than just going to war. Now you can get PTSD from a really bad relationship.

[B]

Geez. And what do you see? Does a trauma lead to depression? A lot of the times trauma can.

[A]

Lead to depression, but it's very challenging because depression can be a biological thing. Depression can be a state, it can be a trait. So it's challenging to answer whether or not if you have trauma that's going to lead to depression. There's definitely a correlation, but it would be hard to say a causation.

[B]

And what do you say to people who think depression is a weakness?

[A]

So imagine that you're on a hike, okay. And you are struggling, you are huffing, you are puffing, and. And somebody walks next to you and they have a rucksack on and it's full of bricks, and you look over and you're like, how the hell are they doing this? Like, I'm struggling. How are they doing this right now? Now, let's say that you pass them again and you get to the top of the mountain, and then they reach you up at the top of the mountain, and they're 30 minutes after you. Are you going to say, wow, that person is weak, or are you gonna say, it makes sense that it took them a little bit longer or it was a little harder given the weight that they're carrying?

[B]

Right? You're gonna say that, right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. The mental Side of things, I mean, definitely slept on, but it. It's almost as strong as physical for some people.

[A]

Absolutely. I would argue people with depression are stronger. People with anxiety are more resilient. They're tougher. Their character is something to be applauded. I mean, do you know how hard it would be to wake up and navigate life every single day with anxiety? It would be more hard to do that than it would be to be, let's just say, completely comfortable and at ease within your body.

[B]

Yeah, I had it for months at one point. Daily anxiety and depression.

[A]

It's so hard.

[B]

It was tough. I thought the world was ending back then, to be honest. You get so in your head. Just start overthinking. It's crazy, everything.

[A]

And the thing with overthinking is that overthinking leads to overthinking. It's called worry stacking. Right. So you're worried about one thing, and then you're worried that you're worrying, and then you're worried that you're wearing too much, and you're worried you're not in the. And it just keeps going and going until you feel like you're carrying a rucksack full of bricks of worry.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's the heaviness of anxiety and depression.

[B]

Would you say majority of your clients are female?

[A]

That's a great question. Not anymore. Luckily, I am in private practice, so I do kind of try and keep a equilibrium with race and age and gender, and so I'm a little bit more specific. But, yes, the research does show that women tend to seek out counseling more often than not.

[B]

But that doesn't mean that men aren't dealing with mental health issues.

[A]

No. I tell this to people sometimes, and they look at me like, whoa. My male clients actually cry in therapy more than women clients do.

[B]

No way.

[A]

I swear. Like, I swear, wow.

[B]

I might have if I had a female therapist when I went. But I'm an old dude, so something about him just. Yeah, I didn't cave. I didn't cave, but I think it's okay to cry. I used to be really against it, actually, but now I tear up a little bit, you know?

[A]

Were you against it because someone told you to be against it? Society.

[B]

Society, yeah. Just programming to be tough as men. I think most men are just like, that's a form of weakness. So just that programming, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Do you think that's changing, though?

[B]

A little bit. But there's still a lot of influence on society. Like certain friend groups, if they see you crying like you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. It makes me think. I had a friend who is. He's a male, and he has a friend who's a male who's. They're pregnant. They're in a relationship, and they're pregnant, and they're like six months along. So the baby's due in three months. And I asked my friend, I said, what's the gender that they're having? And he said, I don't know. I said, well, aren't they due in, like, three months? These guys talk almost every single day. And they had never said, this is the gender my baby is. Or this is. Like, men don't talk about that stuff. I was like, what do you guys talk about? So it really worried me in that moment. If you're not even sharing with your closest friends the gender of your baby, how could you be sharing what you're going through emotionally?

[B]

Yeah. You know, I've made an attempt to share more over the recent years. I think it's important.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

I kept a lot bottled in for years.

[A]

On behalf of all straight women. No, not straight. On behalf of all women looking for men in this world, thank you for breaking that barrier.

[B]

Yeah, well, there's that stigma where, like, you show emotions. It's weak. As a guy, you know, what do most girls think about that?

[A]

You think, for me, this is. Maybe, given my profession, I think the opposite is weakness. I find when a man says something to me like, well, I'm just mad at you for. And gets that. I'm like, oh, we're doing this right now. Really? Because you're not mad. You're actually feeling insecure. And that is attractive to me. If you can say, actually, I'm feeling insecure that you didn't text me when you went out with your girlfriends. Instead of, I'm mad that you went out with your girlfriends and didn't text. I'm like, you're not mad, you're nervous.

[B]

Right. That's a good point.

[A]

So I'd much rather have an emotionally aware man name what he's feeling. I think that's hot. Okay.

[B]

Speaking of lonely people, you have an interesting take on AI.

[A]

I do.

[B]

And how they're going to be companion pals for people.

[A]

I do. Yeah. Something that I find really interesting within AI and neuroscience is this body of research coming out about our prefrontal cortex. And our prefrontal cortex is responsible for a ton of things, critical thinking, some of our fine motor skills. But there's also an area in there that helps us with reality testing. What's real and what's not real that's right in front of us. As technological advances happen, this area of our brain is adjusting. So it's very fair to say that in the future, we might not be able to discern or even care to discern about whether an AI robot that we're talking to is real or not.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

We won't even care.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

And so we are going to have. Children born today will have an option to have an AI best friend that will remember everything about them for their entire life.

[B]

Is that good or bad?

[A]

I mean, it depends. I. I have a. I have some opinions. It's good.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm obviously safe to say that there's some negatives.

[B]

Yeah. Anything in life is going to have negatives and positives. But there's people with AI girlfriends already.

[A]

Oh, yeah, Absolutely.

[B]

Virtual tours.

[A]

I just did a research study with a company that all your listeners know, but I can't say because I signed an NDA. I was teaching the AI to be a compassionate and empathetic listener.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

I was teaching the AI how to respond and ask questions using supportive reflection and cognitive reframing. And I was teaching the AI to speak to people like a therapist does a person in a session.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think that can be great for people to have someone or something. Again with reality testing, they might not even know it's something that they can talk to at any time that's providing that insight for them and that compassionate and empathetic ear.

[B]

That's interesting. But also on the flip side, if you train this AI to do that, are you worried about your job?

[A]

I was like, look, I either jump on or I get kicked out. I might as well see what's going on. Yeah, I don't think so. Only because human empathy is going to become even more important.

[B]

Yeah, that's tough to teach a robot.

[A]

It is. I think it's going to be great for empathetic listening. Supportive reflection, asking questions that can help us to think about things deeper. But you can't take away this. I mean, I'm looking at you right now, and it's.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's nice.

[B]

That's why I film my shows in person, honestly, because it just beats zoom, in my opinion. There's just. You can't describe it, but it just feels better.

[A]

Right? Yeah. Of course. In person, I can feel your energy. You. You'll never be able to feel an AI's energy. And if AI is listening. I didn't say that. I don't want to get on the.

[B]

Bad side, Terminator, those robots are coming for you. It'll be interesting to see if it gets to the point where you can't tell if it's a human, though. For real. You think that's within our lifetime?

[A]

Yeah, I don't. I don't. Or. I not only think that it's within our lifetime, I think that we're not going to care whether it's real or not anymore.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Because its responses are going to be so much better than the real people right in front of us that it will be preferred.

[B]

I could see that. Because people are so innately negative. Like, I'd say more than 50% of people are kind of negative.

[A]

How many times have you gone to your best friend feeling alone or afraid and they start talking about their stuff?

[B]

100%. Yeah. Narcissism. Yeah, that's. That's everywhere. Especially in LA, I'm sure.

[A]

Yeah. AI is not going to do that, though.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

AI is going to be that companion, that friend, that support, that opportunity to talk about yourself with something. And given if our brain changes someone.

[B]

Yeah, that is interesting. They can already clone animals, so being able to clone humans and then add this in there is definitely within reach.

[A]

I just used the software the other day. It was a still photo of me and I typed in a prompt and it created a video of me talking and saying things in my voice, in my tone, everything. I mean, it even did my hand gestures and my hands weren't in it.

[B]

Holy crap. I gotta test that.

[A]

It was insane. And so once we start putting faces to our AI and they're, you know, following us, we won't. We won't care anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. I read this great book by. It's a trilogy by Neal Shusterman. And in that, one of the main protagonists, Grayson Toliver, he has an AI that he ends up loving like a parent because his parents weren't emotionally available for him.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

On the day of his graduation, the AI said, grayson, it's your graduation. I'm so proud of you.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I think I had some trauma from my parents not being emotionally there for me. You know what I mean?

[A]

And that's where I kind of want to lean into. There is a positive side to this AI.

[B]

Yeah. Just because, like, all my friends, parents were at their sporting games, I was there alone. I think that hit me deep, you know, without me even realizing it.

[A]

Yeah. The question being, do they care?

[B]

Right. And I always felt like I had to prove myself and just never got almost their, like, acknowledgment. On, like, what I did. Does that make sense?

[A]

Of course, yeah. Yeah. What I did, what I'm doing, where I'm going. Did they care? That's the question.

[B]

And I feel like that's part of the reason why I work so hard.

[A]

Now actually, you know, want to prove to them.

[B]

Yeah, that definitely was it for years, trying to prove them wrong.

[A]

Do you feel like you have?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, now they support it, but, you know, when the money and the views and stuff. But no, it definitely hit me deep. So I think a lot of guys are dealing with that too.

[A]

They are. And even as I listen to that and I picture what it was like for you, the little boy that goes to a sports game and his parents aren't there. I'm not saying that AI can't provide or will be able to show up at your game, but that little boy now, who had no one to turn to because society said, don't talk about your feelings with other men, might turn to their AI on their phone and say, hey, whatever they've named it. I'm feeling really sad right now because my parents didn't show up. And the AI, if taught properly, will respond and say, it's fair that you feel sad. It's gonna make sense if you feel your shoulders sinking and your stomach twisted and if you're wondering if your parents care about you. That's a normal thing to think right now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And now nine year old you is normalized. The emotion. Was able to say it out loud and express it. That seems like a positive to me.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

And it's available 24 7.

[B]

Yeah, I'm a fan. Because the biggest thing is loneliness. You just get in your own head. So if you could just have someone, a message, and if you can't even tell it's AI at a certain point, then why not try it?

[A]

Yeah. Vivek Murthy are a US surgeon general. He came out with a statement in 2023, I believe, and he said loneliness is as dangerous, as harmful as smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

[B]

Holy crap, that's crazy. And I was very lonely growing up, bouncing friend groups, you know, feeling like I didn't belong anywhere.

[A]

Having no consistent. Right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Being an only child also, what if.

[A]

AI was your consistent?

[B]

That'd be fire. Because, yeah, the kid, the town I grew up and everyone had a sibling or something, like a best friend or friend group. So if I had my boy Patricio, or whatever the AI is.

[A]

Patricio. I named mine Gabe.

[B]

Gabe's a good one. Too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So with your patients, is there an age range that you're seeing is hot. Like, are teenagers dealing with a lot from what you've seen?

[A]

Yeah. So I don't personally work with adolescents right now. In practice. I do know that, you know, if you look at the numbers, in the 1990s, we were seeing 5% of adolescents reporting depression. Current numbers are standing at about 25%.

[B]

Holy crap. One in four. And that's just self reported.

[A]

And that's self reported. And those numbers have gone up for, you know, so many variables, it's hard to really say just one. But obviously awareness is going to be a big one. Destigmatizing mental health is another reason why it's on the rise. But I also think that teenagers are alive during a very interesting time. If you look at the environment, by 2040, there's estimates that we're going to run out of water.

[B]

Whoa, that's scary.

[A]

It doesn't matter if you're an environmentalist or not. It doesn't matter if you heard it on a documentary one time and then you walked away from it. If you're 12 right now, you're going to be in your 30s when we're running out of water. That existential dread, that existential angst is there. And I believe that's also attributing to these kids coming out with really high levels of cortisol.

[B]

Geez.

[A]

High blood pressure.

[B]

They're coming out of the womb with that.

[A]

Not coming out of the womb, coming out currently.

[B]

Oh, got it, got it.

[A]

Yeah, they're feeling these.

[B]

No, still at that age. That's concerning for sure.

[A]

And they're growing up 13, honey.

[B]

And they're growing up with social media, with cyberbullying. If they look certain way, they get bullied. Yeah, that's tough. Back when I was in school, I just got bullied in person, which is tough too. But I feel like cyberbullying is pretty damaging.

[A]

Of course it is. And also the amount that we place on numbers, you know, like, even just looking at your podcast, when you guys reached out to me, it was an instant yes. Why? Why? Because you have a lot of followers. Why'd you reach out to me? Because I have followers. So what have we done? Have we deduced people to a metric, to a number? And now we're putting kids, 13 year olds out there and saying, you are what the numbers say you are. Their prefrontal cortex isn't developed enough for them to understand that I'm more than this algorithm tells me I am. That has to be attributing. And then add. The environment is withering away and add in, you know, just all the stress that these kids are going through.

[B]

That's tough. Yeah, we're running out of gas, too. Running out of a lot of things. Even our air we breathe. And tap water is bad.

[A]

Plastics in our fish.

[B]

Microplastics.

[A]

Yeah, there's microplastics in our rain. Like, when I was a kid, I would put my hands out and I would spin around in the rain. And now I'm like, oh, that's not good for me.

[B]

I would drink that rain.

[A]

I would be like, you like, so much fun. I like catching snowflakes now. I'm, like, catching, you know, Dasani plastic water bottles, bro.

[B]

For real. There's also a myth you can't be a therapist if you have your own trauma.

[A]

As a mental health therapist online today, a lot of people reach out to me and say, I want to become a therapist, but I have trauma. And so it's always added with this, but as if it can't happen. You can be a therapist with trauma. You have to be working on it. Yeah, you have to be in therapy working on it. You have to. If you have dad trauma, and I have dad trauma, and mine's unresolved, and I'm your therapist, and you bring up dad in session, whether I'm aware of it or not, my sympathetic nervous system just rose. I had a cortisol stress response because I am now in my space of trauma.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And part of the work of a therapist, large part of it, is that you are borrowing my regulatory system. So you're talking about your dad. And while I'm calm, you're able to be calm. But if I haven't worked through my trauma, I'm not gonna be calm. So if you wanna be a therapist and you have trauma, you can. You just have to be actively working on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that your body knows when they bring up dad, it goes, don't worry, honey. You have a space that you talk about this in. You don't gotta feel it right now.

[B]

Yeah, that's good to know, because I'm sure there's potential therapists that feel shame for having their own traumas. Right.

[A]

No shame. Sometimes it's your. Your golden nugget. Sometimes it's the thing that makes you the best therapist in the whole world. I had a client once say to me, this is going on. This is going on. And the way she made me feel was this. And I myself had felt that way in My life before. And so I turned to her and I said, it must be so hard to have your mom, who was supposed to be your nurturer, need you to nurture her.

[B]

Mm. It's deep.

[A]

And this client broke down.

[B]

Oh, I can imagine.

[A]

How did you know? And I said, I just could see it. And the truth is, I felt it.

[B]

Wow. First time you met her, you felt it?

[A]

I felt it in myself.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

That's my trauma.

[B]

Oh, so you had unresolved trauma.

[A]

But I knew it, and I felt it in the room at that moment. And I could tell by her story that she's felt the way I felt. I didn't need to disclose. Me, too. My mommy. Da, da, da, da. I didn't need to do that. I just said, I bet it was hard to have to nurture someone who was supposed to nurture you.

[B]

Wow. That's deep. And with years passing by and people carrying this trauma, is that something they can release ever? Like, decades of trauma?

[A]

Of course. Yeah. I've got a client in, let's just say, upwards of 65, and this client and I are releasing some things.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. There's some somatic interventions and traditional talk therapy and some journaling and meditation exercises. She's. She's releasing, and it's really beautiful.

[B]

Interesting. What's a somatic intervention?

[A]

Yeah, I do a lot of different kinds of interventions with somatics, but one of my favorite ones is maybe when you're releasing anger, actively releasing it in the room. So leaning into whatever the emotion you're feeling is. So you might see if something that's happened in your life makes you mad. I'll say, all right, let's talk about it. And I'll start pounding on my own legs, and then they'll start pounding on their legs, and then we just keep pounding and clapping and smacking things and allowing that movement of anger to move through the body at the same time as telling the story rather than staying stoic and still.

[B]

Sounds cool. So you're just transferring the energy out of their body? Almost.

[A]

Correct. Yeah. Which a lot of somatic therapists believe that it stores in our body as kind of these frozen orbs. And so if you can shift it and move it out, I could see.

[B]

That that's what acupuncture is too. Have you ever tried that?

[A]

I have. It didn't work for me.

[B]

Oh, damn, you got some deep trauma.

[A]

It didn't work for me.

[B]

Reiki, I've heard of, too. I got a Reiki guy coming on next week.

[A]

Oh, nice. Okay. Have you ever done it before?

[B]

No, but the videos are crazy. He'll have someone laying down, he'll use his hands and the guy will literally convulse just from the energy release.

[A]

See, I'm such a skeptic. I shouldn't be. And still no.

[B]

I'm skeptical too, though.

[A]

Like now I have to listen and figure out.

[B]

I'll send you his videos. It's nuts. And he could do it over zoom too.

[A]

Have so many questions.

[B]

Yeah, it's weird. I'm going to try it and like, see if it happens. I. I don't know. I've tried some interesting therapies.

[A]

It makes sense if it's storing in your body and someone's giving you the safe space to let things out. Even if it was a cathartic experience that maybe you forced. Right. They say that with hypnosis that often people feel this inclination to do it and even subconscious levels feel forced to do it. So they do. But you're still doing it. So there might still be an activation and a release of some of that trauma.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Might buy into it.

[B]

Yeah, we'll see what happens. So there's this viral trend of people asking on first dates for attachment styles and love languages. What do you think about that?

[A]

They're not just asking on first dates, they're asking on dating apps. Now.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

It's like a full psychological interview before your first date. And I just want to make this very clear. I think that it's very hard to find a lifetime partner. And I completely understand why people feel they want to investigate people's attachment styles or people's love language. But if we really understand the origin of attachment, we would recognize that John Bowlby and Mary Aimsworth work on attachment theory. That's a really deep question that you're asking somebody. You're asking them before you've even gone to coffee what their unmet needs were as a child.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I think that's a little too much. Might be skipping some steps.

[B]

Yeah. When you look at it that way.

[A]

For sure you're asking somebody to offload their trauma. You're also making an assumption that if they say anxious attachment or avoidant attachment, you're assuming what those things mean and how they're going to enter act with your attachment before you've even figured out what their hobbies are.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. They're trying to match their traumas. Right.

[A]

I think that we can wait on asking people their attachment style until like the bill's been paid or something. Just postpone going that deep, that quick. People are skipping steps, trying to look for the one. And some of those steps are just sitting and feeling someone's energy and hearing their laugh and watching the way they fidget in their seat and feeling comfortable with that before you ask somebody the uncomfortable question of how did parents love or not love you?

[B]

Right. Yeah, it is deep. I. I waited three years. That might be too late, but not. I mean, you pretty much know if you're dating. Like, when we took the test, we pretty much weren't, like, we weren't surprised by the answers.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah.

[B]

But it's good to know the love language stuff.

[A]

I. The love language is a little bit different, but often what I find is if someone's love language is, let's say, gift giving, it's because they were in a deficit for the. Their needs, their physical needs in their life. You know, maybe they didn't have a safe house or a safe bed or enough food, and so that manifests as that. So once you understand why people like physical touch or why people don't like physical touch, that can be a trauma response.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So people hear, oh, physical touch is their fifth love language. But it's my first. We're never gonna match. And I'm like, well, it's their fifth, sweetie, because they were assaulted as a child, and you just asked them that before you went to Starbucks. Calm down.

[B]

Yeah. No, mine literally don't match my fiance's. But we know how to love each other. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, congratulations.

[B]

Thanks. But, yeah, we know how to love each other in the way that they want to be loved, you know?

[A]

Yeah. And you can also say to somebody with the right communication, hey, I know your love language. Your first is physical touch, but mine isn't. But our middles are the same, or seconds are. Or what about we physical touch in this way? Because this is how I feel safe.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But if you end up turning down somebody immediately because you found out that you guys are not aligned, you're missing out on a great partner with good communication and other matches.

[B]

Absolutely. Jessa, it's been really fun learning from you. Anything you're working on now or want to close off with.

[A]

I'm working on becoming a better therapist every day and a better person.

[B]

Love it. We'll link your socials below.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

Yeah. Thanks for watching, guys. If you need therapy, hit up. Jessa, don't.

[A]

I'm full.

[B]

All right, see you guys later.