Baran Dilaver: Why Your Biological Age Test Might Be Lying To You | DSH #1774

Summary

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Digital Social Hour — Episode Summary

Podcast: Digital Social Hour
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Baran Dilaver, Co-founder of Wonderfeel
Episode: Baran Dilaver: Why Your Biological Age Test Might Be Lying To You (DSH #1774)
Date: January 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the science—and the hype—around anti-aging supplements, with a focus on NAD (nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide) and biological age testing. Host Sean Kelly sits down with Baran Dilaver, founder of Wonderfeel, to discuss the limits of current longevity technology, common misconceptions about biological age, how supplements like NAD and NMN work, and why a healthy lifestyle remains at the core of living well, regardless of what the latest test or trend might market.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Myth of the “Magic Pill” and Importance of Lifestyle

• [00:00–00:12] Both host and guest emphasize there is no shortcut to health.
  • Quote: “People think there's a magic pill. The magic pill is exercise.” — Baran Dilaver [00:01]
  • Dilaver stresses that mindset, nutrition, and exercise are fundamentals that no supplement can replace.

2. Mindset, Community, and Self-Discovery at Burning Man

• [02:21–06:52] Dilaver shares his 19-year experience with Burning Man, recounting its role in fostering innovation, community, and even pivotal tech connections (e.g., Google’s hiring of Eric Schmidt).
  • Quote: “Burning Man, for a lot of people, is self-discovery and community.” — Baran Dilaver [06:50]
  • Also discusses the demanding process of building art installations and personal growth achieved through effort and adversity.

3. Understanding Biological Age: Tests, Challenges, and Confusion

• [01:28–02:21] Biological age tests yield different results—sometimes drastically so.
  • Quote: “Some of them are significantly different. ...When you're 60 and one result says 35, one says 50, that's a big difference.” — Baran Dilaver [02:12]
  • The best tests provide direction for major issues but can’t fully capture the complexity of aging.

4. The Science and Role of NAD in Aging and Longevity

• [08:11–11:10] Dilaver uses analogy to explain NAD’s function, likening it to a life-giving river for the body.
  • Quote: “NAD is something you produce... in billions every day. It’s so crucial that without NAD, you’d be dead in 10 seconds.” — Baran Dilaver [08:21]
  • NAD levels start declining in our 30s, affecting various functions/organs as if parts of the river-fed valley dry up.

5. How Wonderfeel Came to Be

• [10:09–11:14] Inspiration came from personal aging, meeting scientific experts, and leveraging research originally focused on genetic repair (e.g., BRCA gene).
• The guest admits it’s tough for him to isolate how much NAD supplements were responsible for improvements since lifestyle elements played a huge role too.

6. The NAD Hype: Celebrity Use and Age Recommendations

• [12:14–14:56] Celebrities like Jennifer Aniston and Kendall Jenner reportedly use NAD, but Dilaver cautions against supplement use too young.
  • Quote: “If I were 22, I wouldn’t take it. ...I’d start taking it maybe 29, 30.” — Baran Dilaver [13:52]
  • He references lack of studies for users under 25–30, recommending lifestyle optimizations first.

7. Scientific Evidence & Anecdotal Surprises

• [15:09–17:17] Recent clinical trials show promise across many fields—women’s health, inflammation, rare diseases—but much is still being learned.
  • Customer feedback includes reports of gray hair returning to color, eyelash and eyebrow regrowth, and improvements in gut microbiome.
  • Quote: “People’s gray hair starts turning back. ...We did not expect that at all.” — Baran Dilaver [16:18]

8. Diet, Nutrition Trends & the Role of Moderation

• [18:06–21:12] Dilaver advocates for moderate, mixed diets (favoring Mediterranean), warns against extremes like carnivore or vegan, and notes the importance of adjusting nutrition to the individual.
  • Discussion includes analysis of large-scale diet data (from Viome) suggesting vegetarian diets as the healthiest, yet Dilaver remains cautious about generalizing.

9. Mindset, Depression, and Physical Health

• [21:43–22:58] Cites scientific and anecdotal evidence connecting mindset to both disease outcomes and aging processes.
  • Quote: “If I cannot control their nutrition and mindset, I cannot heal them.” — Baran Dilaver [21:44]
  • References stories and studies showing that negative mindset or depression can lead to poor health behaviors and even death.

10. NAD, NMN, and How They Work

• [23:14–26:57] Explains the difference between NAD, its precursors NMN (nicotinamide mononucleotide), NR, and why direct NAD supplementation via pill or IV doesn’t work effectively.
  • Analogy: Adding NAD is like refilling a leaky cup—must both add and prevent loss (certain enzymes eat up NAD).
  • Some ingredients derived from olives, resveratrol, and mushrooms (ergothioneine for cognition and repair).

11. Measuring NAD and Creatine Advocacy

• [27:01–28:34] Measuring NAD directly is difficult and prohibitively expensive (tissue analysis needed), unlike other simple blood markers.
• Creatine is highlighted as a cheap, effective supplement for energy, cognition, and muscle performance, especially beneficial after age 40.
  • Quote: “Creatine is one of the least expensive supplements, most available. … It’s a supplement 101.” — Baran Dilaver [28:26]

12. The Future of Anti-Aging: Incremental vs. Radical Approaches

• [28:34–32:25] Real breakthroughs (living to 150+) will require radical inventions, not just incremental improvements.
  • Dilaver cites projects growing organs from one’s DNA (cloning), providing backup organs/stem cells compatible for transplants as game-changing.
  • Quote: “That’s a radical invention that will definitely add so many more years to that higher ceiling.” — Baran Dilaver [31:38]

13. Product Development, Safety, and Innovations at Wonderfeel

• [33:38–37:28] Discusses new supplement formats (e.g., healthy chocolate), safety standards (testing for heavy metals in chocolate), and future pharmaceutical/nutraceutical crossovers.
  • Plans to make pharmaceutical-grade versions accessible, aiming for products with minimal to no side effects.

14. Final Thoughts on Longevity, Moderation, and Making Changes

• [38:01–38:32] All current Wonderfeel products are reported as safe and well-tolerated, with the guest emphasizing the continued need for moderation—even with healthy substances.

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Notable Quotes

• On NAD as the "life force":
  “NAD is something you produce... in billions every day. It’s so crucial that without NAD, you’d be dead in 10 seconds.” — Baran Dilaver [08:21]

• On the biological age test confusion:
  “Some of them are significantly different. ...When you’re 60 and one result says 35, one says 50, that’s a big difference.” — Baran Dilaver [02:12]

• On radical future tech in anti-aging:
  “That’s a radical invention that will definitely add so many more years to that higher ceiling.” — Baran Dilaver [31:38]

• On the power of mindset:
  “If I cannot control their nutrition and mindset, I cannot heal them.” — Baran Dilaver [21:44]

• On moderate, sustainable health:
  “The magic pill is exercise.” — Baran Dilaver [00:01]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:00–00:12] Debunking the magic pill myth; central role of exercise and lifestyle
• [02:21–06:52] The real impact of Burning Man (innovation, self-discovery, resilience)
• [08:11–11:10] How NAD works, age-related decline, and origins of Wonderfeel
• [12:37–14:56] Celebrity endorsements, age for NAD supplementation, preference for lifestyle 25–30+
• [15:09–17:17] Surprising user feedback; evidence for effects like hair color return and gut health
• [18:06–21:12] Debate over diet effectiveness, importance of moderation
• [21:43–22:58] The crucial effect of mindset and optimism on health/longevity
• [23:14–26:57] How NAD and NMN supplements really work; issues with IV and oral NAD
• [27:01–28:34] Creatine's wider benefits for aging adults
• [28:34–32:25] Radical breakthroughs in longevity: cloning organs, stem cell potential
• [33:38–35:46] Wonderfeel’s future products: healthy chocolate supplements, safety testing
• [37:28–38:32] Business model: pharmaceuticals vs nutraceuticals, ensuring accessibility & safety

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Tone and Language

The episode is lively, accessible, and conversational with a balance of scientific explanation and anecdotal story-telling. Baran’s tone is candid, cautious, and evidence-based—often qualifying statements where scientific consensus is incomplete, while Sean Kelly interjects humor and curiosity.

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Conclusion

This episode offers an honest, wide-ranging look at the realities and limits of anti-aging science today. Dilaver underscores the primacy of lifestyle, the current gaps in age-testing and supplement research, and the need for moderation—while expressing cautious optimism about radical future interventions like organ cloning. It’s a must-listen for anyone interested in health trends, longevity science, and separating truth from hype in the quest for a longer, healthier life.

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Find more from Baran Dilaver:

• Website: getwonderfeel.com
• LinkedIn & Instagram: Search “Baran Dilaver”

Transcript

[A]

People think there's a magic pill.

[B]

The magic pill is exercise.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, I mean, this is great, but like, you know, if you don't exercise, if you don't eat well, if you drink a lot, we can't fix you with a pill.

[A]

Right. Yeah. You still need to put in the work.

[B]

Those years that, you know, we put so much effort are the ones I enjoy the most, I got the most. Because you learn so much about yourself, about your limits, about your potential. So, you know, that's what it is. But Burning man is, for a lot of people is self discovery and community. If I cannot control their mind state and their nutrition, I will not take it on. Because if I don't control their nutrition and mindset, I cannot heal them. There's so many, like, not just anecdotal, but real studies showing that the mindset is so important.

[A]

There's definitely a connection. When I was the most sick I've ever been in college, I was the most negative as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think it was definitely related.

[B]

If you're depressed, you don't, you don't work out. If you're depressed, you don't eat well. Right. Like there's direct correlation. So you have to break that cycle.

[A]

Okay, guys, exciting episode today. We got Baran from Wonderfield. Brought some lovely products. I'm gonna start trying them all about longevity. As you guys know from the podcast. Super interested in health. So thanks for joining us today, man.

[B]

Well, thanks for having me.

[A]

Yeah. I think what you're doing is very innovative and it's going to have a big impact on the world.

[B]

Right, thank you. We're trying.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's the age old question these days is, is reverse aging possible? Right. People are really questioning how it they could get younger.

[B]

So it's a good question to ask. I don't think we have the answer yet.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we were talking on the phone. You said it's more complex than just your biological and chronological age. These tests you could take. Right.

[B]

There are quite a few good tests, but the one challenge is they do come with different results. Some of them are significantly different. So the best scientists, actually they think they came together and they created a consortium trying to align the results. But I mean, the results still give you some indication if something is really wrong. For instance, you can see it through your biological age. But as you said, it's very complicated. Yeah, it is very complicated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we can get into it.

[A]

Yeah. Because I took the cheek one, the saliva test said I was like 22. But then I took a blood test and it was a different age, so I didn't know what to believe, you know?

[B]

Yeah. I mean a few years difference doesn't, doesn't move the needle that much. But when you're 60 and 1 results come at 35, 1 results come at 50. That's a big difference.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, that's a huge difference. So Burning man just passed. I was seeing a lot of social media posts about it. It's very interesting to see how people talk about it on social media. But you've been going to Burning man for a while now, right?

[B]

For 19 years, I think.

[A]

19 years. So you haven't missed a year?

[B]

I have skipped a few years, yeah.

[A]

That's impressive.

[B]

But I've gone at least like 16 to 18 times. Yeah.

[A]

Do you think it's something everyone should.

[B]

Experience at least once if they're interested? You know, Burning man could be very different depending on how, what you want to get out of it. Most people think that it's a big party or a big music festival. That's not what it is. You know, I try to sometimes give some sort of context. I think your audience is interested in their aspiring entrepreneurs. They're into tech. For instance, you know, the, the co founders of Google, when they get investment money from a vc, the VC said, you know what, you don't know what you're doing or what they said you need adult supervision. You need to hire a established CEO from the corporate world. They were not super happy about it, but you know, they had to follow the instructions and they interviewed a bunch of people and they just didn't know what to do. They were not feeling it. And their favorite candidate actually just showed up at Burning man at their camp unannounced and camp with them throughout the week or even a little longer. And that's where they connected. They stay, stay. So like, you know, they could really socialize with them or he will just put like, you know, the tears and the hard work and what needed to be done and he was hired. He was the CEO of Google for the next, I think 10 years or more.

[A]

Look what they built. That's crazy. Look what they built. It's one of the biggest companies in the world.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Wow. Met at Burning man too.

[B]

That's Burning man confirmed his this process.

[A]

That's cool. It doesn't seem like a bad spot to network and meet some interesting people. I do want to go and just talk to people there. Seems like all sorts of perspectives. Go to that event.

[B]

Yeah. And you know, so Since I've been going for so long, Burning man was not a thing. Like, nobody even, like, my friends in New York did not know what Burning man was. So my perception, the way I look at Burning man is probably very different than the younger people. Like, I don't think about networking when I go there, but that happens organically. You meet some of the most interesting, wonderful people from tech point of view, like, a lot of the innovators or people who founded companies that are there, and, you know, they sometimes try their news ideas, like the LED technology. They. They put the latest versions always, like, you know, in some. Some sort of an art form at Burning Man. And back in the day, like, you know, 18 years ago, the LED lights, you know, they were so primitive. They all catch fire.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You. You also make art there, right?

[B]

I work with some on some amazing art installations, and I was not lead artist. Peter Hudson, a good friend of mine, and we've done some other art installations, but, yeah, we worked on some of the largest art installations at Burning Man.

[A]

So art's a pretty passionate thing for you.

[B]

It's. You get a lot out of it. It's very weird and surprising that, you know, you put so much time and efforts. Put it this way. I've been to Burning man for a few years where I didn't do big projects. Those were easy years. And when we did the art projects, they were literally pain in the butt. Like, you'll spend the entire year, first of all, and back then, we'd never. A lot of money. So you'll spend a lot of money out of your pocket. You'll do fundraisers, but then you'll spend the weekends at the warehouse. You're working, you're working. And then you'll take time off from work, think about your vacation. And you go to desert, and you have to go, like, sometimes a week, sometimes even, like, longer before Burning man starts to build the project.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And you'll work 12 hours, 15 hours, 16 hours, trying to get it ready in the dust, in the heat, like 110 degrees or in the dust storms. And, like, the. The worst conditions. And you're the only ones there. Like, there's. There's. You're not taking showers. You're just, like, wiping yourself clean. You're working so hard. And my friends, like, again, like, the friends out of, like, who didn't know Burning Man's, like, are you crazy? Like, that's your vacation. Why would you do that? Like, why wouldn't you just go to, you know, a beach in Mexico or like, get on a boat trip in Mediterranean. And surprisingly, those years that, you know, we put so much efforts are the ones I enjoyed the most. I got the most. Because you learned so much about yourself, about your limits, about your potential. So, you know, that's, That's. That's what it is. But Burning man is, for a lot of people is self discovery and community.

[A]

Interesting. Dust storms sound pretty. Not fun to deal with. I've never been in one.

[B]

They're fun, actually.

[A]

Really?

[B]

They're. They're. They're hard to deal with. Yes.

[A]

What's the worst one you've seen? Have you been caught in one where you couldn't see anything?

[B]

Oh, my God, there's so many of them. And I've like, we've. We've been into the one dust storm I could not move for three hours.

[A]

Holy crap.

[B]

I was by myself in the middle of the desert. The dust storm did not stop. And you wouldn't. You can't know which direction to go, but you can't see more than maybe a feet.

[A]

Jeez, sorry.

[B]

Three feet at most.

[A]

That's still nothing.

[B]

So you can't see anything. So you don't want to get lost further and further away from wherever you're trying to go. So you have to stay put. Usually you try to find something before the dust storm to like, hide or like get inside and make friends with somebody. Somebody's camp in their structure. But no, I was out on the open Playa Playa as a desert where we call. But then, you know, by just hearing people's voices, like three of us came together and we just hang out talking and for three hours waiting the dust storm to go away.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

But, you know, there's been some other crazy ones where, like the trailers, the RVs will flip.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Such strong. Such strong winds.

[A]

Three hours is nuts. I would have started asking if this is it. I would have been like, damn, am I about to die here?

[B]

Always have some water with you.

[A]

That's crazy. Let's dive into Wonderfield now. I think we should start off with wonderful. What exactly NAD is because people. A lot of people have heard of it by now, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But some people don't know exactly what it is.

[B]

Yeah. And it's not that easy to explain with biochemistry. I mean, I can get into biochemistry happily, but one analogy works really well. So NAD is something you produce. Your body produces in billions every day. It's so crucial that without any idea, you'll be dead in 10 seconds. Wow. When people have heart attack Their NAD levels plummet. Actually, it also takes place in over 400 enzymatic processes. But the way I can try to make sense out of it is think about NAD as the life force, like a river that comes from the mountains and then feeds a valley. This water, the river it feeds, there's a town there, there are orchards, there are farms. So it's used for irrigation, it's used for transportation. People transport over it, they fish, they use it for drinking water. So, you know, it's essential to the life of the life. Life of the life in the valley. What happens, why it matters to us, to our conversation, is as you age, the NAD levels start declining. As early as in our 30s, it starts declining. So think about it. You know, there's less water coming all of a sudden. So, you know, one year that the strawberry field does not produce strawberries. That's like one of your organs not functioning well. Or like the apple orchard doesn't give as many apples. So again, one of your organs, your skin not being optimal anymore, or there's less drinking water, or there's less fish, or people are not able to, like, the transportation. Those are helping the enzymes. Maybe this will be the comparison. It's not that easy because part of the river is dry. So as you age, it gets worse and worse and worse.

[A]

So that's why you. Was that a big reason you started the company, was to sell NAD to people?

[B]

I guess the reason it was more like I started aging. You know, I've. I've been not super kind to my body. And then I met this genius of a scientist, doctor, professor, and he turned out to be one of the first who studied nad, who wrote about nad. But he didn't study NAD for longevity purposes. His discovery was he invented something that fixed a broken gene that causes breast cancer and ovarian cancer in women, the Broca gene. And while he invented that, NAD played a very important role in everything he touched in the cell. So that was his research on NAD for the purpose of NAD. So now it came, you know, 360, that he's able to work on an NAD product to help people without having to go through 10 years of clinical trials and, you know, skipping the pharmaceutical route.

[A]

Got it. So you started taking it based off of studies and you felt a lot better.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You started noticing things pretty quickly, or how long did it take?

[B]

Well, my story is a little, little funny because when I started taking our products, I was in. In Southern Mediterranean. I was swimming in the morning or paddle boarding. I was kite surfing in the afternoon I was getting plenty of sunshine and I was eating the perfect Mediterranean diet. So of course I was feeling much better. So I could not attribute how much better I felt to taking our product.

[A]

Got it. Okay.

[B]

But when I stopped doing that, usually if I don't work out for a month or a month and a half, I start breaking apart. My energy levels come down, I'm not as focused anymore. And, you know, just because of work and stuff, like after doing this for over a month, I took a break. Not on purpose, but then I was still riding that, that, that great energy levels and the health for another, like, few months.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is not advice. I mean, go back to working out.

[A]

No, I'm glad you said that. Because the lifestyle is so important. People think there's a magic pill.

[B]

The magic pill is exercise.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, I mean, this is great. But, like, you know, if you don't exercise, if you don't eat well, if you drink a lot, we can't fix you with a pill.

[A]

Right. Yeah. You still need to put in the work. There's some celebrities that have publicly stated they're taking this. Jennifer Aniston, I think Rogan, maybe Hailey Bieber. Kendall Jenner. Right. So it's, it's getting some traction though. Kendall Jenner started at age 25.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That's young, right?

[B]

In my opinion, that's young.

[A]

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[B]

Nobody has studied what happens if you take it at 20 or 22. So this is now opinion like I, if I were 22, I wouldn't take it. You know, your body is still so optimized. Exercise, you know, do you do all the good things? And I think you're gonna do great. 26, 25. I feel like that's a little bit too young, so I will start taking it like maybe 29, 30.

[A]

You feel like that's when the drop off starts. Getting.

[B]

It starts, Yeah. I mean, it starts maybe in your 20, 25, 26, everybody'. And I mean, this is a very safe thing because it's something your body produces in spike in billions. Yeah, but you know, still, like, if you're so young, there's no reason to take it until you're 25. 30 is. I mean, until we learn something else. I mean, maybe we're going to learn that. Oh, it's actually great to start at 25, but so far I don't think anybody has real interest to look into it at that age because we know that, you know, it's working well at the later ages. So we, that's where our focus is. But I think your audiences, I know they're younger, so, yeah, 25 to 30.

[A]

Yeah, 25 to 34 is our biggest range. But yeah, tell your parents about it too. I'm sure they could, they could look into it. Right. There's a lot of studies on it now and a lot of science. It's, it's not really like opinion anymore.

[B]

Science is. 10 years ago there was not a lot of science. But the amount of science coming out is impressive. There are more and more clinical trials. And because it touches so many things on the body, you know, there are many different angles that people are looking at and they all look incredibly promising. Yeah, you know, some people are looking at women's health, reproductive health, they look at inflammation, they look at rare diseases. So, yeah, the results are very promising. I think the next five years, 10 years, we're gonna see that all the premise that we've been seeing from animal studies and cell studies is going to be proven by human clinical trials.

[A]

Nice. That's exciting. Is this pretty accessible? Can you just buy this pretty easily? For the most part, yes. Yes.

[B]

Our product is available on our websites. We have, you know, thousands of thousands of people sending us great feedback and we are surprised by the feedback. Actually, every day we learn something that we didn't expect. You know, people's gray hair starts turning back to real color.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I didn't expect that.

[A]

Yeah, that's crazy.

[B]

Woman's eyelashes. So women in their 40s, they start losing their eyelashes and Eyebrows. I don't know if you've ever seen like, older women penciling their eyebrows.

[A]

No, I haven't.

[B]

Apparently they. Because they lose it. And so people's eyelashes start growing back. We did not expect that at all. And nobody studies eyelashes. It's not like a clinical area that people are studying. So this kind of feedback is amusing and very interesting. And Dr. Saltzman, or Chief medical officer, so when he gets this kind of feedback, he gets excited and he goes into literature. And he's so good at understanding how the biochemistry works, so he's able to connect the reasons. Like one of the other things not relevant to the eyelashes was the gut microbiome. So he. He turned out to be the pioneers in writing about gut microbiome back in late 80s and early 90s. But there was such a beautiful finding that our product helps with the gut microbiome.

[A]

Yeah, that's a big issue right now. People's gut health. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With all the diet.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. The American diet, man. It's not that healthy. Mediterranean is the way to go.

[B]

Yes, that's my view.

[A]

That's what I try to eat when I'm here. It's tough in the desert, but I try to eat like that sort of.

[B]

Diet, you know, I mean, these days you can get everything right. Like it gets delivered.

[A]

Yeah. I order. I order from Amish people too.

[B]

Oh, cool.

[A]

Amish farms. Have you done that?

[B]

I have not. But no sense. Yeah, they're probably purists. They don't even use electricity. Right.

[A]

No disease. Yeah. Trump just did a whole big announcement on it. Did you see that?

[B]

No.

[A]

You didn't see the Tylenol announcement? Yeah, yeah. But he was referencing Amish communities in that announcement.

[B]

Interesting. I did not catch that part.

[A]

Yeah, very interesting. Interesting to see what advice the government gives on health, huh?

[B]

It have dramatically changed in the last year too. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of good, like, I mean, look, pharmaceuticals, we don't like pharmaceuticals. Right. Because they all come with side effects. But you know, they save a lot of lives. So there's a time and place for it. It's just everything got so loop side of the pharmaceutical industry maximizing profits like the, the price and the way the lobby influences all the decisions. And same thing with the food lobby. You know, when you have, you know, thousands of burger joints, you know, they, they. People love burgers. So how do you go against something people love and all these people make money off? But eating a burger every day is not good for you.

[A]

You don't think, what if it's grass fed, though.

[B]

I still don't think it's good for.

[A]

You because the, the bread though, Right.

[B]

There's the bread, there's the cheese and the meat parts. There are different schools of thought. So some people think that you should eat just like meat products like Carnivore. Right. And then there's the opposite ends, the vegan diet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To me, they're both extreme. I think if you're eating grass fed, really healthy meats, that's, that's, that's good for you. But I think moderation is key. There just, you have to change, change it up. So I don't believe in carnivore diets because there's side effects. There is. There's a lot of things that come with such heavy meat consumption.

[A]

So you'll find this interesting. I had the founder of VOM on the podcast.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You're familiar with them, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I asked because they have so much data on people. I think they've done, I think he said over a million tests at this point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And people have to say what diet they're on on the test. So I was like, did you see any diet, like more healthy? Like, what was the healthiest diet? I think was the question I asked based off your data and results. And I was shocked by his answer.

[B]

What did he say?

[A]

He said vegetarian.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I thought it would have been like, I don't know, carnivore or something, you know, but it was a total opposite vegetarian.

[B]

Interesting. So I, that's, you know, I, I have seen quite a few people that really like, benefit from switching to vegetarian to consuming meats.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they're lacking a lot of nutritions. So that's why I question, like, you know, can you generalize? Vegetarian, Vegetarian being good for everyone, but, you know, like, Mediterranean diet is much more vegetarian and a lot of fish. And when you say fish, you got to be careful. You don't want to take too much mercury. So the smaller fish, like anchovies, sardines, like Arctic char, those are better for you. But I do think that, you know, your body needs protein, and I don't know if you can get enough by just consuming vegetables, Nuts.

[A]

I guess that was my thought process too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But now they're kind of saying the protein thing might be a myth, how you need a lot of protein to be healthy. They're looking into that now. Scientists.

[B]

Glad that they're looking into it. So the question is, how much do you need?

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, these things keep changing. That's what makes it really confusing for people? Again, like one. One camp says only eat meat products. One camp says only eat vegan. Just vegetables.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I can. I cannot see both of them being 100% accurate. Right. So something in between. And he became a friend of mine. We didn't work with him, but an incredible scientist from ucsf. Professor, doctor. He was specializing in cancer, but first he solved HIV problem. So when he went back to oncology, he said, baron. One thing I realized is I cannot do it. I won't even take a patient on if I don't control, number one, If I can do chemotherapy or operation. Because sometimes you have to.

[A]

Hmm.

[B]

And if I cannot control their mind state and their nutrition, I will not take it on, because if I don't control their nutrition and mindset, I cannot heal them.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And the mindset. Right.

[A]

So it's that important, huh? Mindset.

[B]

Mindset. Yeah. I think they're gonna die. They end up probably dying.

[A]

I'd imagine the odds are increased. Right. If they're negative.

[B]

I mean, there's so many mindset. Actually, clinical studies, like, I. I forgot the exact details to tell, but I think there was a lobster study. Like, the depressed lobster dies. There's a. Wow.

[A]

Lobsters can get depressed.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

That's crazy. I didn't know they were that smart.

[B]

They get isolated and they die. And there's. This was a story. There's a guy who was stuck at a. On a. On a train. On a. On a cargo train. The door was locked. And, you know, the weather never got super cold. Like maybe 60 or like higher 50s was the coldest. But when they discovered him, he was dead. And he. Dead. He died from shivering from. From. From cold. But this was not cold enough, so.

[A]

Holy crap.

[B]

He shipped himself thinking that he's. He's too cold.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

There. There's so many, like, not just anecdotal, but real studies showing that the mindset is so important.

[A]

There's definitely a connection. When I was the most sick I've ever been in college, I was the most negative as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think it was definitely related.

[B]

If you're depressed, you don't. You don't work out. If you're depressed, you don't eat well. Right. Like, there's direct correlation. So you have to break that cycle.

[A]

Yeah. 100. That is interesting. You. You also sell NMN on the site, which a lot of people, I think, have heard. Could you explain that? What that is too?

[B]

Yeah. So we talked about nad, but we didn't explain really like the products or how to take it. So you can't actually take nad.

[A]

You can't take it. So what is this?

[B]

That's an NAD precursor, is the building block to make nad. You can take nad. Sorry, let me take it. You can take nad, but it won't benefit you because it's a charged big molecule and it won't get inside the cell. NAD needs to be inside the cell. Put it this way. NAD is so precious to the cell that the cell membrane will not NAD out. The same membrane that doesn't let NAD out, doesn't let NAD in. So when these people take NAD through like IV or injections, they're flooding their system with nad. We have tons of studies on the NMN and nr, which are the precursors, but there hasn't been any study on what happens when you take the injection. But we know that NAD doesn't get inside the cell, as Dr. Saltzman, our chief medical officer, explains. He said, well, look, body is complex, so it finds ways to turn some of that NAD that is focused, flooding the system, the blood and turns it into NMN and are the precursors. And then it manages to get some of it probably in. But we don't know how much. We don't know how much strain it puts onto the system. Because when people do the NAD injections, you will hear like, a lot of, like, weird impacts. Like, people talk about, like chest. Chest pain or they might. There's a lot of different things that they report.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Same thing. Like, you know, because NAD became so popular, there will be there. There are some brands out there, they just slap NAD on it and they put NAD inside the cell. I mean, inside the capsule. But that doesn't work. The good companies know that NAD that you can't take nad. So NMN and another nicotinamide mononucleotides, also something your body produces in billions. Also nicotinamide riboside. And are those are the two key molecules that you can take that increases NAD production in the body.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

But ours is a bit more. Again, I'll explain with an analogy. So there's decreasing NAD production and then there's increased NAD consumption. So if you think about what we are trying to do is keep the top full with nad. So we are adding more NAD from top. But then there's a leak. So the leak happens because an enzyme called CD38 is just eating it up. Most of it comes from gut microbiome. As you age, that gets more active. So you need to slow down. That's the activity or the leak. So a couple of ingredients in there. They're derived from olive oil, the good olives in the Mediterranean, and resveratrol, which is known as another longevity molecule. So they help reducing the CD30 activity to have other benefits as well. So, yeah, it's a complex formula that's very specific. It's not like a whole bunch of different things. Very specific ingredients that help with NAD production, NAD depletion. And the ergothioneine is the magic one there. It's from the mushrooms. One of the most interesting ingredients from the mushrooms that helps with cognition. That is actually in mother's milk. Babies have receptors for it. And if you give it to somebody who's got dementia in their 80s, 90s, they actually, they do better. So it's a big range from, you know, a baby who's 1 year old to somebody who's 85 years old. Benefit from it. But we don't even know why we have that receptor.

[A]

Hmm. While we don't know about the body.

[B]

Right. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Are there ways to measure your NAD level? Like, does it show up on a blood test or anything?

[B]

It's very difficult because you have to take tissue. So you have to take tissue out and it's very expensive just to do that. And then you have to analyze the tissue. That's also very expensive. So only like very, like specific research labs.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

To do that. Everything else, like, you get in. Maybe some sort of an idea, but it's not easy. Yeah, like you're measuring your vitamin D level or your creatine level.

[A]

That makes sense.

[B]

Creatine level is not accurate. Actually.

[A]

That's a whole big industry right now. Creatine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, it's blowing up.

[B]

Creatine is one of the supplements. 101. It's really inexpensive and it's really good for many reasons. So it's something that, you know, especially like people. It's not just for athletes. Especially people like after 40, 50, they should take it. I mean.

[A]

Yeah, it's in my water right here. Helps with mental performance now, too.

[B]

Cognition.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People didn't know about it. They thought it was just only for bodybuilders.

[A]

That's what I thought. I thought it was just for lifting for a while, but we tried to.

[B]

Fit it in there. You can't fit in 4 grams of creatine and said small.

[A]

That would have been an old ultimate thing to take.

[B]

It's just like a, like 99 addition. It's not necessarily synergistic, but yeah. It also does similar things to help. So it's a great compliment.

[A]

Yeah, I feel way better. There's so many benefits. I feel like I'm lifting a little more. I'm more energetic. My brain feels better on it. And it's so cheap. Like you said, it's like 30 bucks for like the whole thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's one of the least expensive supplements, most available. Yeah. I think It's a supplement 101.

[A]

Yeah. You think at the rate where we're going right now, with all the new information we're learning, all these new supplements and new studies, that a human will live to 150 within our lifetime?

[B]

That's a great question. Short answer is yes, but I only see a few pathways. There's, you know, all these billionaires are investing in longevity companies, and it creates great amount of research. But it's confusing. Like, some people think that this is just a code thing. Right. Like once you are past the age of making children, you know, you're not needed anymore, so the code expires. That's. That's a good theory. But I don't think by just finding that one code and changing it, we're going to be able to change that because there's so many other things going on. But what I find very interesting is radical inventions. What we are trying to do is just slow down the process to your point. So in my lifetime, hopefully I can benefit from these radical inventions.

[A]

Yeah. So like reverse aging, right? You know, in a sense, reverse aging.

[B]

Is like a whole nother ambitious goal. Like slow down aging. Stop aging. But reversing.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I guess slowing aging. Because instead of aging at 1 per year, you're aging maybe 0.8, 0.9.

[B]

That I think, like little inventions are helping, starting with exercise and, you know, doing some. The right supplements. Not every supplements that will all help with slowing down aging compared to your average person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then the radical invention I'm talking about, I'll tell you about one company I just love. I mean, they're. They're still trying to keep under the radar, but that kind of invention will make a difference. So what they do is they take a piece of you. So basically they take your DNA and they clone you. Right. So cloning is getting better and better. You've heard about cloning?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

They clone you. So they have your embryo. So you, Sean, all of a sudden, you know, there's a little Sean embryo there, and they start growing that embryo. Well, guess what? Like if you need a new organ, if you need a new liver, kidney, you are most compatible with yourself. Right. So just being able to grab that organ and grow it in a petri dish in a lab environment, you're having a backup or stem cells. You need stem cells. We all need stem cells. So you can harvest stem cells from your, your, your own embryo. So they're working on this already. Wow. They have some of the brightest scientists from Stanford and one of the guys that they might, they might be like, you know, the next Nobel prize winners. Yeah, they're working on this. And they're not trying to frame it as long as they're looking at it as solutions to some specific medical problems, kidney failure or like liver transplantation. But the concept is much more than that. So if they can at least do one, two of them, the doors open up. So that's what I'm excited about. Like, that's a radical invention that will definitely add so many more years to that higher ceiling. Right. Like, Nobody lives past 120, and even that is very difficult to get to. So how do you break that ceiling? So this kind of radical invention, not, not just slowing down, exercising and taking like, you know, 50 pills, that's. That's not going to get you past 120. That's my opinion.

[A]

I agree. I think theoretically, if you can replace your organs and have brand new organs, that would increase your. Your lifespan.

[B]

Right. Especially if they're failing. That's. That's your weakest point. Or stem cells, like, your give your body ways to produce more younger cells.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, think about somebody who's a teenager or like young kids, like, their skin is glowing and they're producing. There's. There's a cut. That cut, like, goes away, you know, much faster than, you know, the old person having a cut.

[A]

Right. Yeah, that's true. Wow, that's exciting. I hope they can pull that off.

[B]

I hope so, too.

[A]

There's a lot of issues with organ transplants, actually. The bodies don't connect with the previous organ, you know, rejects, rejects, rejects it. Yeah. Do you think that's an energetic thing? What do you think is going on with that?

[B]

I mean, that's, that's a whole field.

[A]

As another podcast, I think it is, personally, because physically it just doesn't match the body, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There's a lot of reasons that it doesn't comply.

[A]

Yeah. You're still pretty active. You playing any water polo? I know you used to play professional, right?

[B]

I don't play water polo. Like, you have to practice every day to play water polo. So these days are a little bit More fun activities. Kite surfing, snowboarding. Still swim.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Bike run.

[A]

It's pretty intense, right?

[B]

Which one?

[A]

Kite surfing.

[B]

Kite surfing. It could get really intense.

[A]

Yeah, I haven't done it before, but that's the one where you're. The kite's in the air and you're on a board, right?

[B]

Yes, you're on a board. You're. You have like these, like, fishing lines almost these lines that are attached to kite. And it's very powerful. So you have to make sure you manage it. And then, you know, I get into trouble when I go into big waves with it.

[A]

That's fun, man. What else is the main focus? What are you trying to really push other than the products right now?

[B]

I don't know if I should talk about the next round of products. We are trying to keep everything around this core product, but then, like, trying to add stuff that complements it and, you know, I'll talk about it a little bit. Like, one thing that is exciting for me is a different form factor. So, you know, people have been taking gummies as. What do you call a gummy supplements. And, you know, gummies don't excite me like some people like gummies. But, you know, I'm not nine years old. I don't. I don't go buy gummies. But I really like dark chocolates.

[A]

I got some Dubai chocolate if you want some off.

[B]

Oh, great. Yeah, I'll have some. So we are working on this chocolate form of a supplements that is healthy for you. No sugar, alcohols, no sugar, stevia, which does taste bad. So we are. We have already made it tasty, so hopefully it comes out in the market soon.

[A]

See, that's exciting. Some chocolate that's healthy for you. Healthy because there's some mixed things on dark chocolate with the heavy metals. Have you seen that?

[B]

Of course. So we have to test to make sure there's no heavy metals.

[A]

Yeah, so that was when I saw that I was a little disheartened because I used to think dark chocolate was really good for you.

[B]

I mean, there's a lot of good things in dark chocolate. A lot of polyphenols and antioxidants. But there's a lot of metals that's not that good for you.

[A]

Yeah, the metals and the plastics are a big concern for me these days. I had to cut back on seafood again.

[B]

Tricky. You have to eat the right stuff.

[A]

Yeah, well, mainly sushi and like raw big tuna and stuff, you know.

[B]

Yeah. Mercury.

[A]

Even though it tastes so good, it's just, man, the microplastics and the mercury. Yeah, Tony Robbins had mercury poisoning.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah, he was eating too much sushi. It's something to look out for, I guess. Yeah. Just compiles in the body, right?

[B]

Yeah. So again, it goes into moderation. Right. So. But I mean, the chocolate. Yeah. We. We test our chocolate, make sure that, you know, we have become from the science background. So we test everything. Like every time something comes in and, you know, every level of production, we tested.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, you know, we're not just chocolate makers. So chocolate comes in and becomes something else in our world.

[A]

Were you doing a lot of science stuff before Wonderfeel? Where you at other companies?

[B]

A little bit. Not as much. You know, I got into science and trying to understand a few different things. That's where I met Dr. Sussman in one of the medical conferences. And then we have now two medical doctors, clinical pharmacologists on the staff. And, you know, they like to really get into science. And I'm still the business guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, okay, that's all great, but, you know, it's been a year. We've been trying like these five things. I can we. What can we do to make it a little bit more practical for our purposes? Yeah. But there's like. Yeah, the stuff we're working on is so exciting because we're able to parallel track the nutraceutical and pharmaceutical and the pharmaceuticals. Like, believe it or not, it's like the. Most of the doctors, the medical establishment still does not believe in nutraceuticals. They want to see the pharmaceutical version so they can prescribe. But, you know, while we are continuing the pharmaceutical route, we see incredible benefits for. I can't talk about it because, you know, we are still on the patent phases. It's not out yet, and it's going to be a minute. But, you know, I will tell you, as a company, our goal is with the pharmaceutical is not to maximize profits. You know, we are going to keep growing our business. There's enough business out there so pharmaceuticals will make them as accessible as possible. And having that pharmaceutical version makes it more accessible because now doctors can prescribe it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So that's how we look at it. And the products we are going to make, I don't think they're going to have side effects. I mean, whoa.

[A]

That's unheard of for pharmaceuticals.

[B]

Exactly. Because, you know, these are all natural. Like the natural ingredients, they don't make it to the pharmaceuticals. Pharmaceutical industry will take something and they tweak it so they can patent it. So that's why you don't have all these like. Like something like ergothioneine, like I talked about in the mushrooms. No pharmaceutical company is gonna spend money turning into a beneficial drug because there's no money in it. They cannot patent it.

[A]

So that is interesting. I was just gonna ask you if there are side effects to. To this, but it sounds like there aren't. You haven't seen any?

[B]

No. Seeing side effects and tens of thousands of people. Holy crap. Yeah, it's all natural. It's all natural. Your body produces it. But that we don't. We don't tell people who are like, you know, 20 years to take it. But with everything, like, you know, we're talking about foods. Like, sometimes too much olive oil might not sit well for somebody. Right. Olive oil is great for you, but should you drink a liter of olive oil? Some people consume a lot, so I think you have to listen to your body too.

[A]

100. Well, man, what's next? I think we got through everything here. Where can. Where can people buy this? Do we have a special link?

[B]

Oh, so good question. It's www getwonderfield.com.

[A]

Okay, we'll link that in the video for people watching. And where could people find you too?

[B]

They can find me on LinkedIn or Instagram.

[A]

LinkedIn.

[B]

First name, last name.

[A]

Cool. We'll link that in the video. Thanks for coming on, man.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

Yup. Check them out, guys.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank you. I'm gonna start taking this, documenting my journey on my Instagram, and I'll let you guys know how I feel. Thank you. I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.