Bek Lover Vs. Michael Jones: Was It All a Lie? Hidden Truth About Faith and History | DSH #1573

Summary

Digital Social Hour – Episode Summary

Podcast: Digital Social Hour
Host: Sean Kelly
Episode: Bek Lover Vs. Michael Jones: Was It All a Lie? Hidden Truth About Faith and History | DSH #1573
Date: October 16, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth and emotionally charged debate between Bek Lover (Muslim apologist) and Michael Jones (Christian apologist), moderated by Sean Kelly. The discussion delves into centuries-old tensions and misconceptions between Christianity and Islam, questioning the roots of religious violence, scriptural authenticity, moral exemplars, and whether the two faiths can truly coexist in peace. Both guests passionately defend their respective traditions while also acknowledging historical grievances and modern challenges.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Intentions and Misconceptions [00:50–06:24]

• Bek Lover advocates for dialogue instead of conflict, emphasizing mainstream misconceptions and media narratives that pit Christians and Muslims as enemies.
  • Quote (Bek Lover, 01:10): “Nowhere in the Quran does it say that Christians are infidels… it actually is the opposite. It gives them a protected class known as People of the Book.”
• Emphasizes common ground—both religions revere Jesus as Messiah, share prophetic traditions, and await the return of Christ.
• Argues patience and compassion are central virtues taught by prophets in both traditions.
• Michael Jones agrees dialogue is positive but argues that in practice, Christians often face hostility from Muslims, citing data and online threats.

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2. Scriptural Interpretations & Textual Tensions [06:24–13:32]

• Michael Jones raises Surah 98:6 and Surah 9:29, which describe “disbelievers among the People of the Book” as “the worst of creatures” and command fighting those who do not believe in Allah.
  • Quote (Michael Jones, 07:23): “This is one of the worst. Surah 9:29—Muhammad says, I have been commanded to fight those who do not believe in Allah.”
• Bek Lover counters with context, saying such verses refer to hostile tribes, treason, and wartime betrayals.
  • Highlights Quranic verses like “There is no compulsion in religion” (approx. 10:29) and condemns forced conversion.
• Both guests point out violence in their opposing scriptures but disagree on scale, context, and doctrine.

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3. Historical Accountability: Violence, Colonialism, and Persecution [13:32–25:48]

• Bek Lover points to the violence of Christian empires—colonialism, forced conversion in the Americas, and sectarian wars in Europe.
• Michael Jones disputes causality, citing historians (Tom Holland, Robert Woodberry) who say Protestant missionaries sometimes alleviated violence.
  • Asserts that empirical data shows more systematic discrimination and violence in Islamic contexts, especially against religious minorities.
• The guests repeatedly challenge each other to “look in the mirror” and not generalize faiths by the misconduct of followers.

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4. Tradition, Doctrine, and Social Morality [25:48–53:31]

• Discussion pivots to apostasy and punishment in Islam:
  • Michael Jones: “Should apostates in Islam be killed? Because according to Sahih al-Bukhari, yes, that’s violent.”
  • Bek Lover: “I don’t agree with it in today’s day and age, but maybe at that time, because of treachery… I don’t think it’s necessarily needed in today’s world.” [26:44]
• They debate whether religious texts can be interpreted to justify violence and agree much depends on historical, political, and cultural context.
• Bek stresses: “I blame people, not the doctrine.”

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5. Hot-Button Issues: Child Marriage, Clergy Scandals, and Social Reform [39:31–52:12]

• Bek Lover strongly condemns child marriage and abuse, stating: “Anyone that marries anyone under the age of 18 should be executed.” [40:11]
• Defends Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha by contextualizing pre-modern marriage customs and uncertainties over her actual age.
• Michael Jones counters with academic studies, asserting that even in ancient times, child marriage was less common than presumed and not exemplary behavior.
  • Quote (Michael Jones, 51:27): “We don’t go around saying people that committed child marriage are excellent moral examples for the whole world… But the Quran says Muhammad is an excellent moral example. That is wrong. He is not an excellent moral example. What he did was wrong.”

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6. The ‘Islamic Dilemma’: Reliability of Scriptures [53:31–60:50]

• Michael Jones presents the “Islamic Dilemma”—if the Bible is corrupted, Islam is false (since the Quran affirms its authority); if it’s not corrupted, Islam is still false (due to doctrinal contradiction).
  • Quote (Michael Jones, 54:42): “If the Bible has been corrupted, Islam is false. If the Bible has not been corrupted, Islam is false. We call this the Islamic dilemma.”
• Bek responds that Quran acknowledges previous revelations but also their alleged corruption and explains differences as loss in translation and human tampering.
• Jones insists there are no explicit verses stating the Christian scriptures are corrupted, citing Quranic verses which command Muslims to “believe in what has been revealed to you.”

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7. Jesus’ Life, Language, and Ritual Practice [65:40–77:33]

• Bek Lover argues for religious authenticity via emulating Jesus’ Jewish customs: kosher diet, circumcision, style of prayer.
• Argues Christianity is less uniform, more syncretistic, and more prone to doctrinal drift (e.g., Christmas linked to paganism, translation loss, multiple denominations).
• Michael Jones rebuts Christmas-paganism links, affirms early Christian belief in the Trinity, and defends Paul’s apostleship and doctrinal authority.
• Extended debate over the mechanics and meaning of ritual uniformity, worship, and scriptural translation.

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8. First Miracle: Child Jesus Speaking (Islam) vs. Water to Wine (Christianity) [85:44–90:56]

• Bek presents an Islamic tradition: Jesus’ first miracle was speaking in defense of his mother as an infant.
• Michael traces this narrative to apocryphal Christian texts (“Infancy Gospel of Thomas”), asserting the Quran borrows from non-canonical sources, undermining its reliability.

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9. Taxation, Minorities, and Historical Treatment [94:34–99:43]

• Spirited argument on the historical treatment of Jews and Christians under Islamic and Christian rule.
• Both cite historians and ChatGPT summaries, disagreeing sharply over whose record was better.
• Bek: “The general consensus is that the majority of Muslim subjects paid 5% or less of their total income [as jizya].”
• Michael: “Sometimes jizya was as high as 50%. This was not some peaceful loving thing.”

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10. Concluding Appeals and Common Ground [103:00–end]

• Both agree that neither doctrine, at its best, commands hatred or violence against the other. They call for individuals to do their own research, be wary of historical oversimplification, and strive for peaceful coexistence.
  • Quote (Bek Lover, 103:12): “I wish more were like you. I hope we can get peace… There’s no reason to be enemies.”
  • Quote (Michael Jones, 103:06): “I appreciate you being here. I wish more Muslims were like you… I wish we could work together, but we cannot until Islam reforms or transforms into something that is not going to treat us like the house of War.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Bek Lover (12:28): “Anyone that disseminates, I believe from a cosmic perspective, from God’s perspective, to pass inaccurate information… you are responsible for what you pass on to every person you affect.”
• Michael Jones (31:11): “I wish more Muslims thought like you. Unfortunately, the people in your own house are not.”
• Bek Lover (40:11): “I do not condone child marriage. Anyone that marries anyone under 18 should be executed.”
• Michael Jones (54:42): “If the Bible has been corrupted, Islam is false. If the Bible has not been corrupted, Islam is false. We call this the Islamic dilemma.”
• Bek Lover (93:53): “But I think we can agree… Christians and Muslims should not be enemies, should not kill each other, should not go to war, especially because politicians say so and that we can coexist on this planet and let God or even Jesus when he returns, decide who was wrong or right.”
• Michael Jones (93:26): “[Jesus is] a God who says come and follow me, do as I do and together we’ll change this world… That is what is the beauty of the Creator. He leads by example.”

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening & Debate Setup: 00:35–01:00
• Bek’s Opening Statement (Reconciliation): 00:58–06:24
• Scripture and “People of the Book” Context: 07:16–09:59
• Historical Atrocities & Colonialism: 13:00–21:05
• Apostasy and Punishments in Islam: 25:59–27:53
• Statistical and Modern-Day Persecution: 30:18–31:11
• Child Marriage & Gender Norms: 39:31–52:12
• Reliability of Bible vs. Quran – “Islamic Dilemma”: 53:31–60:50
• Language, Liturgical Practice, and Doctrinal Disputes: 65:40–77:33
• First Miracles of Jesus – Competing Narratives: 85:44–90:56
• Minority Treatment, Taxes, and Toleration: 94:34–99:43
• Final Reflections & Calls for Peace: 103:00–end

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Tone and Style

The debate is intense, passionate, and sometimes combative, but generally respectful. Both Bek and Michael use historical references, scriptural citations, and personal conviction to make their points. The moderator periodically intervenes to redirect or clarify points. The tone fluctuates between scholarly, personal, critical, and conciliatory, with both men at times expressing admiration for the other’s willingness to engage.

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Main Takeaways

• Common Humanity: Both debaters ultimately stress that their faiths do not mandate violence and should not be judged solely by the worst actions of their followers.
• Doctrinal Disagreement: Fundamental theological disputes—Jesus’ divinity, authenticity and integrity of scriptures, and approaches to violence—remain unresolved and passionately defended.
• Responsibility and Research: Both urge listeners to study history and scripture for themselves and to apply fair standards to both traditions.
• Possibility for Coexistence: Despite deep disagreements, both acknowledge the need for mutual respect and peaceful coexistence.
  • Quote (Bek Lover, 103:12): “There is no side. If you find your truth, God will judge you as a human being… Neither of us has the right to end your life because you don’t believe what I want to believe.”

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This episode serves as a robust forum for both challenging and building bridges, painting an honest picture of how faith, history, and modern identity interlock—and how dialogue, even if heated, is the only path forward.

Transcript

[Muslim Apologist]

Of mass destruction. Right. One million people died. I hated Saddam Hussein. He oppressed the Kurds. He gassed them with nerve gas. He was horrific. Who put these people in power?

[Christian Apologist]

Totally agree. Because you said you want Christians and Muslims to work together. The problem is, is when we go into the data, it is not the Christians fault. 99% of the time, overwhelmingly this is coming from Islam and they get death threats all the time from Muslims. How can we work together when people in your camp say they want to join my camp and then people in your camp say they should be killed?

[Moderator]

Okay, guys, we got friendly little debate here today. Conversation, debate. We got Beck Lover returning guest and a new guest to the show, Michael Jones. Thank you both of you for coming. Especially you, Michael. It's your anniversary, so appreciate the time, man.

[Christian Apologist]

Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me.

[Muslim Apologist]

Happy anniversary, brother. Thanks for coming.

[Moderator]

Yeah. And I think the core of this will be just talking about how Christians and know Muslims can work together. Right? That's where we should start this thing.

[Muslim Apologist]

First and foremost, I want to start the debate. I even want to use the word discussion to clarify, I think a lot of things that are perpetrated in the media, okay, that want to convince the world that Christians and Muslims are enemies and they should kill each other. And I believe there is an agenda to create a lot of hatred between the two faiths. And the word infidel is thrown around all the time in the media, is thrown around all the time in the news. And I want to, on behalf of the Muslim world, clarify that. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that Christians are infidels. It's actually the opposite. It gives them a protected class known as the people of the book. Anyone that received revelation before the Prophet Muhammad, whether it was through Moses, Psalms of David, the spoken gospel of Jesus Christ, because he did not leave a written book during his lifetime and he did not leave it compiled during his time. But his word, which is the gospel, the Injeel as Muslims call it, that it is the opposite of what is propagated throughout a lot of history and in recent history. So in the context of the Holy Quran, infidels are specifically being mentioned as the pagan Arabs that were attacking the Prophet Muhammad. And in the essence of the book, which says to speak softly to the Christian, for they are the closest to you in faith. Speak kindly to them, for they are the closest to you in faith. And amongst them you will find men of knowledge. So in that essence, I don't want this to be as I've seen you guys have been Mentioning some of these debates and the way people go back and forth, want to speak kindly to one another. I know we're not going to agree on everything, specifically topics of divinity, which book might be more authentic and things of that nature. But my faith does not command me to hate Christians. My religion does not command me to be aggressive towards Christians. My prophet, the final prophet we believe the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, did not command us to have animosity towards Christians. Actually, on the contrary, he commanded his first followers to seek refuge as they were being oppressed by the infidels during his time, which were the pagan Arabs, which were his tribesmen, which was his own family. And they were persecuted for a decade. And at that time, when he became very hostile in Mecca, he commanded his followers to go to the ancient kingdom of Abyssinia and they were saved by a Christian kingdom. How can our founder of our faith send us to seek refuge to Christians and then the world wants to classify them as infidels on our behalf? That is 100% historically inaccurate and it's not true. We are not enemies. And my philosophy is we both believe Jesus Christ is the anointed one. That's what the word Messiah means, doesn't mean divine. He's the Messiah, Jesus chosen by God for a specific mission. And we both believe, depending what denomination, because there's many denominations, but throughout all of Islam and the majority of Christianity, they believe that there will be an Antichrist, Jesus Christ will come back with all his glory and defeat him. And that and my philosophy, if we both believe he's coming back, let the Master tell us who was right or wrong. Let him tell us. You guys were wrong here, you're wrong here. Now I understand that might be the difference between eternal salvation, whether you accept him as your Lord and Savior or as the Son of God, as the Catholics call him, or a prophet of God, as the Muslims call him. I understand that. I understand that I am risking my eternal soul based on your doctrines if I do not accept him as my Lord and Savior. I don't come from a religious family. I was actually my family was against me when I initially became, you know, religious. So I just think that for the betterment of humanity we can all wait and be patient. Because I think patience is the greatest virtue, especially for people of faith. We learned this from all the prophets of God. Greatest example is Joseph. Peace and blessings be upon him. What a story of patience. Someone that did nothing wrong, thrown down a well by his own brothers. And we all know the story because it's the same in both. So my philosophy is let's celebrate what we have in common. And we don't need to kill and hate each other and allow instigators to take two of the largest fates on earth, which I think benefits no one except the godless, except those that want chaos on the earth to go at it. So I think we can wait for the Master to return because he is a master sent by God, right? A man of knowledge of a perfect human being. He can tell us who was right or wrong. We don't need to wipe each other out with swords and guns and bullets. And we all saw what happened to Charlie Kirk. And even though I received a lot of animosity for showing my condolences and all he did for the last couple of months was bash my faith and I showed compassion, even at my own detriment, even from so called Muslims. That's the Islam that I practice and I believe. And I also believe that the Prophet Muhammad taught us. So I want to extend peace and blessings upon you and all Christians worldwide.

[Christian Apologist]

Yeah, I appreciate that. Let me just say my piece here. I wish more Muslims were like you, I truly do. Unfortunately, that's just not what we get online from the Christian side, just in general. And like if this was what we were seeing with Islam most of the time, I probably would not be doing a lot of stuff now on Islam. But this is unfortunately not what we're getting. I mean, just look at the numbers, what we see coming. You may not see it coming from you because you're on that side, but we on the Christian side are getting an entirely different story. And you said you speak for the Muslim world. I wish you did, man. I really. Because I've seen your stuff, I've seen your shorts. You're a good man. But there's so much more there that needs to be discussed. You mentioned the Quran. Surah 98 says Christians are the worst of creatures. Surah 99.

[Muslim Apologist]

Where does that. Pull it up please.

[Christian Apologist]

Surah 98.

[Moderator]

How do I spell that?

[Christian Apologist]

Surah S U R. It says they're.

[Muslim Apologist]

The worst of What?

[Moderator]

S u r. 98.

[Christian Apologist]

S u r a h. Ah. 98 at least is 6. This is one of the worst. Surah 9 29. Muhammad says, I have been commanded to fight those who do not believe in Allah.

[Muslim Apologist]

And the messenger is talking about Christians.

[Moderator]

It has eight verses. You said verse six. Verse six.

[Muslim Apologist]

Yeah.

[Moderator]

And what does it pulled up right here. Indeed. Those who disbelieved among the people of the book, they are the worst of creatures. They are the worst of creatures. Yeah.

[Muslim Apologist]

And what context is that?

[Christian Apologist]

It's talking about the people of the book and Christians.

[Muslim Apologist]

Yeah. People that may have altered it. People that are not following the original teachings.

[Christian Apologist]

Know what it says.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay, let me try to pull up a full verse.

[Christian Apologist]

Let's just talk about this a little.

[Muslim Apologist]

Bit more though, because there was tribes that were very hostile towards him.

[Christian Apologist]

Yeah.

[Muslim Apologist]

They like to mention the, the battle of Khyber.

[Christian Apologist]

Mm.

[Muslim Apologist]

And how he wiped out a tribe. Right. He wiped out the entire tribe.

[Christian Apologist]

He did a lot of that stuff. Yeah.

[Moderator]

Okay, this is the full verse right here.

[Christian Apologist]

So I can't see that.

[Moderator]

Oh, you can't see that?

[Christian Apologist]

No, it's too small.

[Moderator]

I'm trying to zoom in. There's that.

[Christian Apologist]

I mean, there's issues here, but let's just look at the way things manifest in reality here. I mean, there's been studies done on this. There was a great study done by Davis Brown, I've cited numerous times. He looked at three religions, Buddhism, Islam and Christianity. Buddhism was non significant, didn't correlate with war and conflict at all. Christianity negatively associated. Islam was positively associated. And this was after controlling for variables like influence from outside. So we can cite anecdotal evidence all day, but when we look at the raw data, we're seeing two different pictures emerge. Again, I wish more Muslims were like you, but there's a lot of cleaning of house that needs to happen on both sides. But also when the data comes out, there's definitely more positive benefits coming out of the Christian world and we have reasons to be alarmed.

[Muslim Apologist]

I mean, and what, in what way though, when you say, you know, your book says judge a a a a tree by its fruits, how are you neglecting Christian history?

[Christian Apologist]

Well, I don't.

[Muslim Apologist]

I mean, throughout history. If we pull up on chat GBT right now and we take into account the way you guys want to look at Muslims, in my opinion, what certain leaders did or this did or that did you have instances in the Old Testament, Moses was commanded to wipe out the Israelites for worshiping the calf. He was a prophet of God. He was commanded by the Lord to take those who broke the commandment committed idolatry. Now in this context, I gotta admit, I don't know 100% the full context right now, just off the top of my head, but to my knowledge, God also says in the Holy Quran, there's no sin upon the Christian or the, or the Sabian if they follow that which was revealed to them.

[Moderator]

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[Muslim Apologist]

22:56 says there is no compulsion in religion. Anyone that forces someone to become a Muslim has violated the Quran itself.

[Christian Apologist]

So I want to comment on that.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay. And that goes for the Ottoman Empire which attacked my people, conquered my nation. For 600 years we were under them. They broke the tenements of Islam. I'll call them out here in front of the whole world.

[Christian Apologist]

They sure did.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay. They changed the Hagi Sophia into a mosque. That should have never been done.

[Christian Apologist]

That's true.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay, so I don't think it's the way you're taking it in this context. I believe it's if you're a hostile and you're in a state of war and they're attacking you. To give the example to the tribe which I believe was the, I can't pronounce it correctly, the Cornish they had, not the Quraysh that he was a part of the Quran, I think you pull up the Jewish.

[Moderator]

How do I spell that?

[Muslim Apologist]

Just say which tribe? Did Muhammad have a military tribe? Did Muhammad have a military alliance with?

[Christian Apologist]

It's in the life of Ibn Asak I believe.

[Muslim Apologist]

Yeah, but let's to finish the point. So in that capacity he's being attacked by his own people. Okay, and where's the name? Just pull it up, brother. I'm not a SC on his level. And again, please double check everything I say. You have a responsibility as anyone that disseminates, I believe from a cosmic perspective, from God's perspective, to pass inaccurate information. You're responsible for what you pass on to every person you affect. So please question everything, whether you're a Muslim or a Christian that you hear from me or you or anybody.

[Moderator]

It's saying he had three alliance, all three major Jew tribes.

[Muslim Apologist]

And what happened was even in the middle. So we have an alliance, the pagan Arabs are attacking. Okay. We come to you and say hey, we're not going to fight. No, we're not going to fight. As a matter of fact, if you get attacked, we're going to defend you. We're going to defend you. Mid battle, they betray and turn on the early Muslims and try to wipe them out. What is the punishment for treason even in America today? Sean Kelly, what is the punishment for treason? Treason, what is it?

[Moderator]

Is it life in prison?

[Muslim Apologist]

It's execution. Up to execution, really? That's even in American law. So if me and you are in war, even in the streets, even in the code of the criminal, we're two gangs. We team up. If I violate and help an enemy gang attack, guess what? Now we're enemies. I mean, that's it is what it is. The punishment for treason is death, Period. God commanded, like I said earlier, he made Moses take out the Israelites that were worshiping the calf. Why did he do that for?

[Christian Apologist]

So let's talk about that.

[Muslim Apologist]

Did he show them mercy or did they violate a core fundamental ten commandments?

[Christian Apologist]

I got you. Let's go back to a lot of this. There's a huge difference here in terms of the way this is set up. For example, there's a concept of abrogation in Islam. So you take the verse you mentioned. There's no compulsion in religion. Ibn Kathir, one of the early Islamic scholars said that. Many scholars have said that's been abrogated by what we see in Surah 9 about continual fighting against the people of the book until they willingly submit and pay the jizya. That's a problem right there because the Quran is. There's an order to it, a chronological order that's actually not in currently. But there are places where we see abrogation happening. And then what has the last one that the early scholars said it was Suriname, one of the most violent chapters in the Quran. And Muhammad. Yeah, he did a lot of things we can read about him in the life of Ibn Asaq. But this is not all good. He tortured a guy, had fire on his chest because he wanted to know where the treasure was. And then he went and took his wife and turned him into his own wife. I believe her name was. I forget her name. Exactly. But also there he had people executed for speaking out against Islam. There was an old man who wrote a poem against Islam mentioned in the life of Ibn Asaq, had him killed. Then a woman also wrote a poem telling people to stand up against Islam. He told her to get killed. And when his companion came back, he said, two goats won't butt heads about her. This is not the same as what we see in the Bible with Jesus saying, father, forgive them. They know know not what they do on the cross and him laying his life down.

[Muslim Apologist]

And why didn't his followers get the message loud and clear? No one has lost more life. His early followers wiped out more people.

[Christian Apologist]

Yeah, yeah.

[Muslim Apologist]

No. No single religion, when you take into account the Roman Empire, modern history has lost more life than from quote unquote, Christians period. What's the evidence of colonialism? All of the New World.

[Christian Apologist]

But like, what's the actual data?

[Muslim Apologist]

But the actual data is that they came to the New World, for example, we can use America as an example. Wiped out the natives, forced them into Christianity.

[Christian Apologist]

So this is. This is a huge mis.

[Muslim Apologist]

All of South America.

[Christian Apologist]

Huge misconception.

[Muslim Apologist]

All of South America.

[Christian Apologist]

Pull it up now. Here's the.

[Muslim Apologist]

All of South America.

[Christian Apologist]

Tom Holland talks about this in his opinion. So, for example, he notes that when the colonizers were going there, they were quoting Aristotle's or justification. Nothing remained of them in De las Casas. De las Casas. Bartolome de las Casas, I believe his name, started quoting the Bible to get them to stop the idea that colonialism was the result of Christianity. Robert Woodberry has published research on this.

[Muslim Apologist]

It.

[Christian Apologist]

It was Protestant missionaries creating colonial reform, pushing back against this stuff. I would not say something bad happens in the Middle east, therefore necessarily as.

[Muslim Apologist]

Large branch of Christianity.

[Christian Apologist]

Hold on, let me finish. You can't say something bad happens in the European or Christian world, therefore it's Christianity's fault. We need actual data to connect the dots here so I can go through the data of colonialism. It's Protestant missionaries, Catholic missionaries pushing back against colonialism.

[Muslim Apologist]

Catholicism is the mother of Christianity.

[Christian Apologist]

Exactly.

[Muslim Apologist]

And the author of Christianity is the Roman Catholic Church. It's the one that spreads your faith throughout the world. It's the one that put the books together and then other books came from it. The Protestant book took out six books that the Catholics still have today. Those are not translations anymore. Those are completely different versions. So for you to even attack the Catholic Church is the same way you're trying to attack. I wasn't attacking. Well, you don't agree with what they did, right?

[Christian Apologist]

Agree with which? What.

[Muslim Apologist]

What are you saying to say that the religion wasn't spread at all through violence? I never said that is a complete inaccuracy.

[Christian Apologist]

I'm talking about variable.

[Muslim Apologist]

Hundreds of millions of people lost their lives.

[Christian Apologist]

You just brought up the Ottoman Empire and you said, hey, they were going against Islam because they were doing that thing.

[Muslim Apologist]

And I'm calling them out.

[Christian Apologist]

But now when you're talking about the Catholic Church, Catholic Church is just responsible. It's Christians.

[Muslim Apologist]

They're the mother colonialism. They're the mother of Christianity.

[Christian Apologist]

I could say Abbas said or the Umid Caliphate spreading through violence. I mean, Robert Hoyland talks about that is in his book did they massacre.

[Muslim Apologist]

When they took Jerusalem?

[Christian Apologist]

Yes.

[Muslim Apologist]

When Robert Hoyland talks about when did they massacre.

[Christian Apologist]

A thousand Christians were massacred.

[Muslim Apologist]

When?

[Christian Apologist]

When they took Jerusalem.

[Muslim Apologist]

When Omar took Jerusalem? Yes, 4000. I don't read that anywhere in the history.

[Christian Apologist]

Read it in. In God's.

[Muslim Apologist]

I know that they negotiated. No, I know that he got it. I know that Omar didn't pray in the Holy Church of the Sepulcher. He made sure the Muslims didn't change it into a mosque.

[Christian Apologist]

They took the commander of the Ar named Sergius and they put him in a dead camel and he suffocated to death. Then they massacred Christians throughout the Palestinian war.

[Muslim Apologist]

Who was the one that handed the keys to him? That's not the person I read in history. Pull up. Who handed over Jerusalem to Omar Al Khattab?

[Christian Apologist]

Listen, this is all in Robert Hoyland's book In God's Path. He documents this, his bookstore.

[Muslim Apologist]

So all the greatest historians say something different. But this guy writes a book and.

[Christian Apologist]

It'S not just him. I could also quote Tom Holland in the Shadow of the Sword, for example. I could quote Clifford Backman in Medieval Worlds in his book. That's his book, the Medieval Worlds. So this is. I could talk about numerous historians I could go bring to Sean Anthony, Patricia Crone. This is what historians talk about.

[Muslim Apologist]

Why is it that wherever Christians went, no one remained of the natives? Whether it was their names, like all of Latin America, even their names, their language was wiped out. They were forced into Christianity. This is a fact through taxes. It's all here, brother. This is common history, simple history. You can get into complicated books and people. God didn't make religion that you need to be a master to even understand it. He made it simple so that anyone can understand it.

[Christian Apologist]

So I just want to remind so.

[Muslim Apologist]

Those same way you try to hold Islam in this light, if you look in the mirror, you have nothing left to talk about. You really don't. So once again, I'm sorry. Even as African Americans in America, a lot of them were actually brought here. They weren't brought. A lot of them were Muslim. We can't go watch the movie. You know Roots. Don't you pray to know Allah? The master don't want you. You guys can't agree on his language, you can't agree on his skin. Color. If I've got five Christians together, they would say he's white, he's black, he's brown. I'm talking core fundamentals. You want to talk about other things. I'm talking about which religion is more authentic, which book is historically more accurate or preserved in a better fashion. You yourself are. I don't know what you call the term. What's the term that you say you are?

[Christian Apologist]

Christian.

[Muslim Apologist]

Christian. Christian, post millennial. You were saying to me outside.

[Christian Apologist]

Yeah, that's my eschatology.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay. And a lot of what you were telling me is not what the majority of Christians believe, that you don't believe the Antichrist. I don't know what you were explaining. What I'm saying is that these are differences of opinion. Okay. But if we look at core fundamentals, what I thought we're going to discuss today is who is Jesus Christ? Is he what the Christians believe he was or do Muslims believe? Which book is preserved more authentically in and out of context? I can play that game all day with the Bible. Okay, do you believe in incest?

[Christian Apologist]

Let me get. No.

[Muslim Apologist]

God. Does the Bible say a lot Committed incest, Does that mean Christianity, they believe in incest?

[Christian Apologist]

No.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay, but.

[Christian Apologist]

Okay, hold on. We don't getting way off topic, but I'm just going to give me enough. So I would like to Go ahead.

[Muslim Apologist]

I'm sorry, I apologize.

[Christian Apologist]

You said that wherever Christianity spread, the native populations were destroyed.

[Muslim Apologist]

They were.

[Christian Apologist]

That was completely false.

[Muslim Apologist]

There it is.

[Christian Apologist]

Modern historians. Modern historians now point out one of the main problems in the Americas was the introduction of diseases that wiped out 80 to 90% of the natives because they just didn't have the immunity. The Europeans didn't know what was going on.

[Muslim Apologist]

So there was no, There was no violence. Hold on.

[Christian Apologist]

There you go. Let me finish my point here. Okay. When the Puritans came over, they created the written language of Algonquian so that they could learn to read. They made more written. Christians have made more written languages for people around the world than any other faith. They were not wiping out people. Meanwhile, when Islam spread, that's exactly what happened in the early Umid Caliphate. Entire people groups were wiped out or were slowly assimilated into becoming Arab and specifically into that position. So this is a problem. So we can look at the actual historians. And I want to remind people. What I'm doing is, I'm saying here is what the historians say. And unfortunately, you're historians. No, what the historians say. Well, then you quote some.

[Muslim Apologist]

Well, it's real simple. Anyone can go and do the research. We've all heard the history. Two to 300 million people lost their lives, whether it was through disease or war. And they didn't come peacefully. The Spanish and the Europeans and everywhere they went, they didn't come peacefully. Okay? And everyone, not a single person, didn't remain that became Christian from the natives. That's a fact. Muslims controlled Spain for how many years? Over four or five hundred years. Today they're the most Catholic country in the world.

[Christian Apologist]

That's because of the reconnaissance. When they were in control of Spain, they were using coercive tactics, as Richard Bachman points out.

[Muslim Apologist]

Richard.

[Christian Apologist]

Sorry. Clifford Backman points out in his book the Worlds of Medieval Europe. They were trying to Islamicize the region, and they were going into the Christian regions and pillaging and taking slaves.

[Muslim Apologist]

And I don't think.

[Christian Apologist]

And that launched the Reconquista because the Christians were sick and tired of being oppressed and treated horribly. Richard Backman even says in his book the Worlds of Medieval Europe, Muslims started fleeing north because they thought they were going to get a better life up there than how they're being treated by the. The Almohads, for example, or the Amor. What is the Amorvid Caliphate or something like that. So this is. We cannot whitewash this history here and pretend like it's always good. Meanwhile, when Christianity spread, it's always bad. History is telling a completely different story. So you mentioned incest in the Bible. I want to go back to that descriptive version.

[Muslim Apologist]

I don't believe that happened, by the way.

[Christian Apologist]

That's fine.

[Muslim Apologist]

If you mentioned when they're talking about the prophet Lot, that he was made drunk by them and slept with his daughters to save humanity.

[Christian Apologist]

Can we point out in the Bible that I don't think that happened? And I'm not saying you don't. I'm saying you brought it up as an attack here just because it's an attack. I'm showing our Bible documents sin so that we learn not to be like that. Lot is an example for us to learn by. We don't have to sit here and defend all the immoral actions of the Old Testament. And you know why? Because the Old Testament is constantly saying, look how this man was set up, then he failed. Look how this man set up and then he failed. It's pointing towards the future.

[Muslim Apologist]

Do you? Towards the Old Testament as a book.

[Christian Apologist]

Of God, towards the perfect man, Jesus, who's going to come. Because Romans 3:23 says, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So yes, Lot sinned He did horrible things. When Muslims bring this, I don't believe it. Just shows they don't understand what's in our Bible and what it means and how we apply it. So we cannot be uncharitable in how we understand.

[Muslim Apologist]

Do you accept the Old Testament as a book of God?

[Christian Apologist]

Yes.

[Muslim Apologist]

Is it a book of God?

[Christian Apologist]

Yes.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay. When we talk about. So I don't. I want to shift. Okay. So we're more violent. You're more violent. I don't. I think anyone can do simple research and see even on chat gbt, if you pull it up, how many people lost their lives, whether through Christianity or Christian states or kingdoms compared to Muslims. And I would remind you, I guarantee you.

[Christian Apologist]

Please look at the research.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay. Or research let the world. I'm going to say my point. You're going to say your point. The audience can go do their research real simple. We don't have to spend hours on this. Okay. Nothing has remained of their languages. Nothing has remained of even their own names. Cortez, Hernandez. These are not the names they had in the native lands.

[Moderator]

Chachu Bati said. Depends on the time period and region you're studying. Most scholars conclude that religion itself is not the root cause. Power, land, resources and politics are usually the drivers, with religion used as justification.

[Christian Apologist]

Probably getting that information from a great book written by William Kavanaugh, you would probably enjoy. It's called the Myth of Religious Violence. And he goes through and focuses mainly on European conflicts and notes. We cannot really say that religion is the main driving force between all this harm and violence. However, other historians.

[Muslim Apologist]

I don't think Christianity teaches that. So I want to clarify. So I want to make a point here. I don't think any of these doctrines teach that. Even Hinduism, which I don't believe in the caste system, but there's this essence of treating human beings the right way and blah, blah, blah. I don't think any of these faiths teach you to oppress people, kill people and massacre people. There's evidence of this throughout all religions. But I don't blame the doctrine. And I feel like when it comes from your end, I'll sit there and defend Christianity in the sense saying, I don't believe that's what Christ taught. I know human beings are make mistakes, leaders, kings, 100%. I think anytime the prophet had a conflict, it was justified.

[Christian Apologist]

So do you.

[Muslim Apologist]

And I think when people do their homework, they'll see that that is the case.

[Christian Apologist]

So let's.

[Muslim Apologist]

I don't think it's in Islam's doctrine to Force conversion? When the book. Yes. Was there instances here and there? Absolutely. But not on the scale of Christianity. So then whether you say it was political or not political, that's a whole nother argument. And that's opinion. We look at what the fruits that are bared. How many people became Christian? Why did they become Christian? What was the economic situation? What was the military involved? How many people lost their lives? Whether it was through the smallpox or not, it was a direct correlation to those Christian invaders conquering territories all over the world, period. Let me finish. And let me finish. You didn't let me. And there's instances of that in Islam also.

[Christian Apologist]

I have a question.

[Muslim Apologist]

So it's not. You guys are like this. And then you ignore the fact that estimates say between 200 and 400 million people lost their lives since 1492 because of Christians.

[Christian Apologist]

I have a question.

[Muslim Apologist]

Did the Muslims start World War I? I have a position. How would Jews.

[Christian Apologist]

You are generalizing.

[Muslim Apologist]

You guys do.

[Christian Apologist]

You are generalizing and you're saying, hey, hey, World War I do. No, I'm citing actual studies here and actual historians on books here. Now let me ask you a question. Should apostates in Islam be killed? Because according to Sahih al Baqari, yes, that's violent. You can't just leave Islam. According to the main hadith collection in Islam, Sahih Al Baqari is very clear. There are numerous hadiths where Muhammad said, apostates of Alam should be killed. Do you agree that Islam should be killed?

[Muslim Apologist]

There's no forcing to go into the faith. Faith. Right. There is no compulsion in religion. If you go in and then defect, it's almost like treason.

[Christian Apologist]

So apostate should be killed.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay, I don't. I don't agree with it in today's day and age, but maybe at that time, because of treachery, there was hypocrites. People got, you know, like. Like that tribe. They had an alliance with them. They broke the alliance. So I think it was to prevent that type of treachery. I don't think it's necessarily needed in today's world.

[Christian Apologist]

Where is the hadith that says it was just because of that reason and it's not a universal ruling.

[Muslim Apologist]

I'm not saying it's not a universal ruling either.

[Christian Apologist]

That's violent, though. That leads to violence, that leads to oppression and discrimination in Islam because of that doctrine that apostates of Islam should be killed. How can you say Islam is not violent when that is in an integral. That's an integral part of Islam.

[Muslim Apologist]

Both Your Lord, the God that you believe in and the God that I believe in, Old Testament, you can't deny that book came from him. He ordered blood. He ordered the killing of the Israelites because they broke the commandment. So you can't say that that book came from God and that was okay. But then all of a sudden he changed his mind. Like you guys, like back and forth, back and forth. There's his rulings. It is what it is. If that's what Islam says and that's what the Prophet said, then that's what it is. And the reason people can dig in deeper to it, but no one's forcing you to. And if they did force you, they broke the book, they broke the commandment.

[Christian Apologist]

So this is.

[Muslim Apologist]

But as far as shedding blood, that exists throughout the Bible. Yes. In the Quran, war is a reality of life. My family was massacred in the Coast Civil War, 1998, by Orthodox Christians. I never once in my entire life, and even on this discussion we're having ever blamed Christianity.

[Christian Apologist]

Hold up, hold up. You have said a lot of things that are implying Christianity is responsible.

[Muslim Apologist]

What I'm saying is I don't blame. I don't blame Christianity for what the Serbians did to my people. You guys want to blanket everything people do and say it's because of Islam and his doctrine. That's not true.

[Christian Apologist]

So I specifically said earlier that I'm not going to just point to a conflict in the Middle east and say therefore Islam's fault. Meanwhile, you're looking at colonialism and saying Christianity. You're looking at things the Catholic Church said and saying Christianity. So you are generalizing and trying to blame. Meanwhile, I'm. Let me finish. Because you've interrupted me so many times at this point.

[Muslim Apologist]

Calm down. Okay, I'm cool.

[Christian Apologist]

Okay, you know, let me finish now.

[Muslim Apologist]

Yes, sir, Go ahead.

[Christian Apologist]

All right.

[Muslim Apologist]

I have a little ADHD too, so forgive me.

[Christian Apologist]

So meanwhile, meanwhile I'm looking at what specific studies say, what specific books have pointed out. I'm not saying everything that bad happens in the Middle east or in the Islamic world is Islam's fault. However, that doesn't change that it is a contributing factor. There are violent things in Islam like murder for apostates, like Surah 9:29, which calls for perpetual war against the non Muslim world. Islam. The early scholars divided all of Islam into two houses, the House of Islam and the House of War. There's a reason the non Muslim world is called the House of War. Again, I'm not saying you are a problem. I'M saying if you go back to your house, you turn around and you see all the Muslims on your side. There is a lot of violence. There's a lot of call for issues that we Christians see that you may not be seeing. What I want you back to see is I want you to wake up to what's going on on your side. Cuz I don't think you see it. I think you're thinking like a Christian and I think that's great. But turn around and get all your other Muslims to think like Christians because we want less violence. We do pray for our enemies. We are called to be persecuted for his name's sake. But however. Hold on, you said you'd let me finish. Okay. However, when we turn a look at the Muslim world past 25 years, over 60,000 Nigerian Christians have been slaughtered by Islamicist groups. The 2024 Global Terrorism Index, all the major terrorist groups are Islamists. They're constantly targeting Christians, persecuting them in the Middle East.

[Muslim Apologist]

Who prop.

[Christian Apologist]

I have one more thing to say, then you can go.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay, Go ahead.

[Christian Apologist]

Grim and Finke have done a study. Okay. Their book is called the Price of Freedom Denied. They have found in their research that in the Islamic world, Shia or Sunni, very low, very low persecution people of the book, apostates from Islam over four times the level of discrimination and persecution coming from Muslims. This is a real problem here. I'd love to sit here and say with you, yes, Christians and Muslims can work together. We should be on the same page. And I wish that was the case and I wish more Muslims were like you. Unfortunately, the people in your own house are not. And they're constantly attacking us, persecuting us, slaughtering us. There was just a guy in France named Asher who just had a machete in his throat the other day in France. He was a refugee from Iraq. They just killed him for preaching Christianity. How am I supposed to say we can work together when this is what happens at Day to Day?

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay, So I think, you know, you simplify it a lot in my opinion. You know, you got to look at the last hundred years since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, who installed these leaders in the quote, unquote Muslim countries, which I believe many of them don't even operate by true Sharia law. Okay, who put Bashar Al Assad in power, who wasn't even a mainstream Muslim. He was an Alawite, which is a sect of Shia and a sect of that. Right? This is the guy that controlled Syria. Syria fell again. Who did the west allow to walk in there and take control of the country. A former ISIS member. You explain to me how that makes sense. Leave religion out of it. Just as an American. We have propped up Saddam Hussein. We propped up all these people where for the most part throughout Muslim history there wasn't this persecution the way you guys try to paint it today. And when we look, and we look at your way, my friend, we compare your history to ours. I don't care what you say. People can go do the homework themselves. The bottom line is I condemn all of them. The west is the reason they're in power. One million people are dead in Iraq. For what? Weapons of mass destruction, Right? Did they find them? One million people died. I hated Saddam Hussein. He oppressed the Kurds. He gassed them with nerve gas. He was horrific. Donald Romes felt like they're shaking his hand. Who put these people in power? So called Christian nations, I don't think they're operating by Christianity. 24 years of war, brother. Millions and millions of people dead. These new leaders that are running these customs, these countries are definitely more Muslims have died from ISIS than anybody else. That's a fact. Can Google it? Search it. Fact. Any Muslim that persecutes a Christian should burn in hell, bro. Simple. I'll say it right here in front of the whole world, okay? But it's not as easy. And again, I'm not pointing out things to pick on you guys, but I believe there is this like, oh, this is the way you guys are and you really don't look at your own house. If we look at European history, leave Islam out of it. Approximately 4 million Christians, whether you call them Protestant or Catholic, took each other out. Two supposed followers of Jesus Christ, Sunni and Shia, did the same thing. I'm not going to deny that. But were they following Christianity? If they both believe in Jesus, why are they wiped? 4 million people died because of that. Approximately. Can double check my facts. Sunni and Shia killed each other too. Iraq versus Iran. None of them are following Islam or Christianity in my opinion. And that's been my message to the whole world. That is my message to the whole world. So it depends. If you're going to use this filter, use it yourselves. You know, use it yourselves. Look in the mirror too. I blame the people, not the doctrine. I've never blamed Christianity for what's happened. I don't blame it for colonialism. But I believe the same way you're using that metric with my faith. You're not being fair. And that's my honest opinion. So that's what I'm saying, if you're going to use that metric to measure the faith and what we did and what we didn't do, if we look into the mirror, if we do the research, hundreds of millions of people lost their lives and were coerced into Christianity the same way you're trying to claim Islam was. So the Greeks were under the Turks for how long? 500 years. They're still Orthodox.

[Christian Apologist]

Okay.

[Muslim Apologist]

The Serbs. I can go on and on. Many nations that were under Muslim rule that are still Christian today.

[Christian Apologist]

Okay, can I respond now?

[Muslim Apologist]

Yes, you can.

[Christian Apologist]

Okay, I totally agree. Oftentimes there are other variables that are causing war. Again, I will reiterate my point. I'm not looking at something in the Middle east and going Islam's fault. I'm looking at specific connecting factors. That's important because again, we can go to issues in the life of Muhammad. The way he acted, the way he was a caravan robber, in the way he oppressed and the way that he treated women and the way he treated his. We can go to places in the Quran, like I mentioned, Surah 98. Christians are the worst of creatures. We go to Surah 37. Hold on. I let you speak for a good five minutes and then I let. And I didn't say anything. Please allow me the appreciate that. Okay. We can make connections here which are alarming to us Christians. The only reason I'm bringing all this up is because you said you want Christians and Muslims to work together and.

[Muslim Apologist]

I kill each other. Simple.

[Christian Apologist]

Exactly. I completely agree. The problem is, is when we go into the data, when we run the numbers, it is not the Christian's fault. 99% of the time, overwhelmingly this is coming from Islam. And the reason it's coming from Islam is because of we conceive the specific doctrines in the Hadith. You've just admitted to me apostates should be killed in Islam. That is alarming on so many levels. That's that you're saying you don't want violence, but your religion is demanding it. If, if somebody. I have friends that are ex Muslim or Christian and they get death threats all the time from Muslims. Now you said we should work together.

[Muslim Apologist]

How can we.

[Christian Apologist]

Let me ask questions. Muslims and let me ask a question. How can we work together when people in your camp say they want to join my camp and then people in your camp say they should be killed. This is not us working together. This is one side trying to oppress, humiliate, subjugate us and wipe us out. There's even A hadith that says the end will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and they overcome the Jews and they hide behind rocks and trees, except this one tree that's post.

[Muslim Apologist]

Antichrist, but still that is calling for.

[Christian Apologist]

Violence that's supposed to come. This is a religion that says we need to keep pushing violence. The house of Islam needs to fight the house of war until the world is subjugated. I wish we could work together. But again, when I look into the world, when I look at who all the martyrs are, who are the terrorist groups, it tells a different story, different than what you're telling. And I'm saying, clean up your house so that we can work together. And then I would be with you on that.

[Muslim Apologist]

Do you guys ever use the same fairness? For example, like the guy in the New Zealand church. I mean, the New Zealand mosque massacre, Christ Church.

[Christian Apologist]

He was prosecuted.

[Muslim Apologist]

He was never called a Christian terrorist, though. Even they had crosses all over his gun. Playing Serbian nationalist songs with like, why is the same fairness not shown in the media when fellow Christians don't call it out? I mean, the guy literally walked into Hamas and said, peace, brother, welcome. Open fire. 100 Muslims dead. That was ideological. It was Christian fanaticism. Never once called a Christian terrorist, even though I don't believe he was a Christian.

[Christian Apologist]

I agree.

[Muslim Apologist]

You can't be a Christian and take life unjustly. It's only to defend yourself. And I agree Christians have a right to defend themselves if they're being attacked or even oppressed, and so does Islam. What people did and how they did, that's on them, brother. They're going to face God one day. But you cannot force people to become Muslim. I believe the context of apostatism is because of how dangerous it was back then, because of the alliances and treachery that was going on. There was what are known as the munafikun hypocrites who pretended to be Muslim only to try to destroy Islam. I guess it was once you're in the faith and you come out of the faith. That's why there's that, because basically you're committing treason at that point. I don't think it's something that needs to be done in today's world. I don't think anybody would convert to the faith, you know, to simply leave it now, can people leave if they don't believe it? I think they should have that right. But I think it was more in the context of that time, the wars that were going on and the treachery that was committed by Certain tribes.

[Christian Apologist]

I appreciate you saying that. I wish more Muslims thought like you. I really do. But again, I had a debate with a Muslim because he wanted to defend child marriage. And if you go through the comments, all the Muslims are on his side. You're the exception back. You're not the rule. And that's why we Christians are standing against Lamb and fighting and saying we can't work with this side. Please clean up your own house. We do. That Christian terrorist you mentioned? Yeah. Horrible guy thrown in prison. But when, when like things like happen in the Middle east, like Christians are attacked, I see the Islamic world celebrating. I don't see the Christian world celebrating. When that guy went into that mosque and shot it up, people were mortified. The Christian nation threw him in prison and treat him as a terrorist. He was. Meanwhile, when things like October 7th happen or bad things happen where Christians are being persecuted, they're celebrating. This is what I want. More Muslims to be like you back.

[Muslim Apologist]

You're going to sit here and act. I am a public influencer that talks about these topics. Right. Not a scholar of your caliber. I'm not a scholar, but you're very well read and I respect that because I think that's why people like us can sit at the table and talk. I think ignorance is the biggest enemy of all faiths, humanity, period. When you talk about, you know, cleaning up the house, I think that's what needs to be done. Muslims need to look at what's going on. Christians need to look at what's going on. But we need to be fair. You guys always want to call us pee fowls. I should use that word, right? And you talk about cleaning up your house yet. And we can get into child marriage if you want. I do not condone child marriage.

[Moderator]

Good.

[Muslim Apologist]

We can put things into context. I think anyone that marries anyone under the age of 18 should be executed. Okay. And I'll say that public. I'm just saying, like if I had a daughter, bro, if I had a daughter and she was 14 and somebody wanted to marry her, I'd have a problem with that. I would probably be in prison.

[Christian Apologist]

How do you make sense of Muhammad marrying Aisha?

[Muslim Apologist]

Marriage and narrating to that in two seconds. Just let me finish my point when we're going to talk about cleaning up our houses. You guys shouldn't be worrying about the Muslims right now. Your Christians by Association have 700 up to 700,000 open cases of sexual abuse with children. First from the Catholic Church, now the Anglican Church in the uk, the head bishop had to resign. I don't agree with what's going on in the uk. If there are Muslim gangs that they want, you cannot be a Muslim and a woman. The punishment is death. I don't think you can women and be a Christian. I think the punishment would be the same thing. We know from the Old Testament, the punishment for adultery is death. That's not even someone right. So yeah, I will call them out. I hope the UK rounds up those grooming gangs and I would love to see them executed publicly for harming children and women. And that is what our religion teaches us. But I don't hear the outcry as much, not from you, I know you do. But from the Christian world, if we're going to talk about cleaning up our houses, let's start with the Catholic Church, let's start with the Anglican Church. Let's start with the school teachers throughout our schools, that is. We have a big problem right here in America. Let's worry about who I think we can see is it's happening a lot more on your side when it comes to touching children within the very institutions of different denominations of Christianity. At the highest level, clergy. Start there and then worry about the Muslims. Now as far as the marriage of Aisha, is it normal for someone to get. You think if an adult has sex with a 12 year old, is that a crime?

[Christian Apologist]

Yes.

[Muslim Apologist]

14 year old?

[Christian Apologist]

Yes.

[Muslim Apologist]

Then why did the father get the Virgin mary pregnant at 12 to 14 years old? That's all I want. That's number one. All right. No, no, no, I gotta finish my point. You've made your point.

[Christian Apologist]

I'm gonna write that down because we gotta answer that.

[Muslim Apologist]

The Hadith are third person narrations similar to the Testament. We have people heard this, people heard that. That's how those testaments are compiled. They're not directly the book of God. The ancient pre Islamic Arabs were one of the most ignorant people on the face of the planet. Before Amen they used to bury their daughters alive. In their tradition it was called the age of ignorance. If you as a pre Islamic Arab had a daughter before you had a son, you would go to the desert, dig a hole and bury her alive. Before Islam, women were objects, they were treated like garbage. Now her age, they did not keep accurate records, they did not celebrate birthdays. She would not have known her own age, her own self. And many scholars believe she might have been somewhere between 15 and 18 based on battles that she led. And she wrote a lot of the hadith herself. She was written and very well spoken. The Prophet Muhammad was married to his first wife. She was 20 years older than him. In many cultures throughout the world, including the Christian world, more than anybody. And we can Google all this. The age of marriage or the age of consummation was when a woman was biologically ready to have a child. That's not just in the Arab world. That is throughout the entire earth. Christian history, Asian history, African history.

[Christian Apologist]

Even.

[Muslim Apologist]

To this day still have bar mitzvahs. Age of 13 to show the world my son is of age. He is now a man. He is now ready to be quartered and married. By today's standards, 13 years old. If somebody tried to marry my daughter 13 years old, I would want them executed. That's the law of the Old Testament. Did God forget? I guess they forgot. Jesus came down and lived as a. He kept kosher. He followed the commandments of the Old Testament of which we're supposed to follow his example, right? We should emulate the king, right? He's Jesus Christ. He was circumcised. He followed all the commandments. In that world, 13 years old was normal. I'm not saying it is. In today's world, arranging marriages was the way of the world. Throughout the entire world, there's people where I come from that were engaged, whether Christian or Muslim before they were even born. Islam was the first religion that said women cannot be forced. That still happens today. People still arrange marriages and force their daughters to marry people that they don't even want. The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, made that against. Islam is the first religion, unlike Christianity, unlike long before them. Google search. Which religion gave women the most rights up front or chatgpt? Women were not allowed to own land. They were not allowed, you know, and they, they could be forced into marriage. Does this happen in the Muslim world? These are cultural differences. It's not the doctrine. You cannot be forced to marry someone against your wall in Islam. And anyone that does that is in direct violation of the faith. And it's not. Do we think or not think? Like clear as day. As far as her age, there's no proof she was one or the other. She wouldn't have known her own age anyway. How are you going to know your age if no one's celebrating your birthday? There's no records. You start keeping time in your mind, okay? No one ever attacked him for being. She was engaged before him. So it was normal that she was engaged already in her hand in marriage. There is no 100% she was. That she wouldn't have even known her own age. My Own grandmother, who died in the early 2000s, didn't even know her own age. Why? She came from rural Albania, Kosovo, to be exact. They had no records. The state didn't keep records. She didn't even know how old she was. She knew she was somewhere in her 80s. But in the teens, two or three years makes a big difference in today's world and in the ancient world. But if this was only something that was on the Muslim side. You got something to say? Explain to me as an American, leave religion out of it and I condemn it 100%. Why was the age of consent in Delaware, Joe Biden's home state, 7 years old consent and then 10 years old? You could get married in New York at 13. Is this normal today? People go to jail today if they do these things. You're worried about ancient Arabia that followed the practices and the customs of the entire world. Yet we can go only a hundred years ago in our own country and you tell me why a Christian nation founded on Christian principles. That was the age of marriage and consent in modern history.

[Christian Apologist]

Can I respond on your points now?

[Muslim Apologist]

Last point. That's hypocrisy. And yes, the mother of Christianity, Catholicism and their encyclopedias, the spreaders of Christianity, said the Virgin Mary was no more than 14. Most scholars believe 12 years old. If that's normal and you can defend that, then come talk over here. Otherwise you can't. So go ahead.

[Christian Apologist]

All right.

[Muslim Apologist]

And everyone can Google search it themselves.

[Moderator]

Fingers crossed.

[Christian Apologist]

Let's talk about the father impregnating Mary at 14, talks in 14. Am I going to be able to speak?

[Muslim Apologist]

Yes, you can.

[Christian Apologist]

All right.

[Muslim Apologist]

12 is the general consensus.

[Christian Apologist]

That's a bunch of BS that comes from a work called the Proto Evangelium of James, a late 2nd century work which the Catholic Encyclopedia says is unreliable. Scholars today, like Michael Sattlow, Amram Troper, will tell you that girls in Palestine in the time period of Mary were not being married until late teens to early 20s. Same for the wider Roman world. Keith Hopkins, Brent Shaw. Note this. It was not normal for girls in Palestine to be married that young. That is a huge cultural myth that is being spread around that I have debunked time and time again. The father did not do anything. It was the Holy Spirit in the Bible who came upon her. She was a virgin. There was no sex involved.

[Muslim Apologist]

I agree. There was no.

[Christian Apologist]

I'm still going. Good, Let you talk. So this is a huge myth. She was probably in her late teens to early 20s. Based on the cultural understanding. You can check up the scholars I noted again. Michael Satlow, Amram Trouper, Brent Shaw, Keith Hopkins. Okay, with regards to Aisha's age, they did keep accurate records. Sahih al Baqari, Sahih Muslim after Islam. Tu Every Tufseer from the earliest periods of Islam say she was married to the prophet Muhammad when she was 6 or 7, because some differ on that. But they all agree he consummated the Arage when she was 9. And the idea that she was biologically ready, absurd. There's a great study called Evolution Development in the Timing of puberty published in 2006. They note due to lack of nutrition in the medieval period when girls were maturing slower, no girl would have reached the age of menarche before the age of 11. And that would have been 1% of girls. Most were not getting their period till 14 or 15. In the modern world, it has started to go down. Younger ages, better nutrition, better health. But in that period, there is no way to think she would have been biologically ready. And the hip development of girls not even complete to the ages of 15 to 17. That's also important. 13 was not normal, as I've said, and has this idea about which religion gives more rights. We don't need to go to ChatGPT. ChatGPT has 50% wrong answers, according to some studies. We can go to Historians like Tom Holland wrote a great book called Dominion. He notes that you know where the idea of witnesses comes from in marriages. That's a Christian invention in the medieval period. The reason why is because the church said, okay, Paul said, there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, free nor slave. We're all one in Christ. Women are the image of God. According to Genesis 1. They have rights. Therefore they get to choose who they want to marry. And Tom Holland says they were stepping on the toes of patriarchs everywhere. They were saying, these girls have a right to choose who they want to marry. So they were marrying these couples in secret. And they invited witnesses in to do that. They started to destroy these old norms from the ancient world where women were property more than any other religion. Tom Holland also notes in his book, when the abolitionists showed up in Morocco, they were told, you can't come here because banning slavery would be against our religion. This idea, I mean, there's just so much this. You talk about Delaware being the average age again, that was, that was a. That was a cultural thing that allowed for early arranging of marriages. If you read historians like Kim Phillips, she notes that often in times when these early arranged marriages throughout the European world and their expansion, when those were put into practice, it was about saying, hey, you can arrange this marriage early, sometimes between elites. However, they would often include clauses that consummation could not happen. She notes in her book Medieval Maidens, for example, that when the King of Aragon was giving his daughter away at a young age, there was a clause, you cannot consummate this marriage until much later. She notes that consummation of marriages again was not happening till late teens to early 20s.

[Muslim Apologist]

So it didn't happen at all is what you're saying.

[Christian Apologist]

I didn't say at all. I'm not saying it didn't happen at all.

[Muslim Apologist]

So it didn't happen.

[Christian Apologist]

I'm not. But here's the difference between these issues. We don't go around saying people that committed child marriage are excellent moral examples the whole world. But the Quran says Muhammad is an excellent moral example. No, the Quran says Muhammad is an excellent moral example. That is wrong. He is not an excellent moral example. What he did was wrong. It was a product of his time and culture. Perhaps, or perhaps he was an exception in the culture around him was better. But either way, it was wrong. And when you bring up people in Christian history doing it, we'll just go, yeah, that was evil. We condemn it. They're not, they're not a good moral example. But in Islam you have to say is a good example. This is why I get Muslims all the time trying to justify his marriage when it should not be. It should be condemned because it was wrong and evil. There is no justification for what Muhammad did.

[Muslim Apologist]

That's your opinion. I believe she was past the age of consent. You know, as far as like, not age of consent, what do you call it? The age of maturity. In the whole world, once a woman had her period, she was ready to give birth. That's when she was given away, period. People can go do their research, they can see for themselves. And again, most of these books you're quoting are people that I guarantee you are more pro Christian in. In essence, all I'm saying to people is that's your opinion. This is our opinion. Go do your homework. And yes, you shouldn't just take anything. Chad. GBT says at face value, ask for the sources, which is we're limited, so it's okay. Ask for the sources. If you actually care for the truth, go in, check everything he's saying. I'm saying you owe that to yourselves. But my friend, you guys have no stone to throw at. And I guess a lot of Christians didn't get the message because we're living in modern history and this seems to be plaguing your community.

[Christian Apologist]

So this is also, again, a big misconception. You're more likely to have a problem in a school than you would in a church according to Run the Numbers. But you talk about truth. I totally believe in truth. But that's why I have to reject the Quran. Because the Quran has in itself a dilemma, which means Islam must be false. And this is a huge problem. So let's just move off from the sociological stuff for a reason. Because I really wanted to get to this to you today because I want your opinion on this issue.

[Muslim Apologist]

Sure.

[Christian Apologist]

So here's the problem. If the Bible has been corrupted, Islam is false. The Bible has not been corrupted. Islam is false. We call this the Islamic dilemma. Have you heard of this?

[Muslim Apologist]

I've heard it loosely.

[Christian Apologist]

Okay, so let's go to places like Surah 447. It says it's the Quran, says it's confirming our scriptures, what we have with us. Go to places like Surah 5:47, tells people, tells the people of the gospel to judge by the gospel. Surah 568. Oh, people of the book. You have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord. Okay, here's the problem. The Quran is talking to us and it says judge by the gospel, judged by the Christian scriptures. Fine, but there's contradictions. Jesus is not crucified in the Quran. He is and he resurrects in the Bible. He's the Son of God. The Bible contradicts the Quran. The Gospel contradicts the Quran. So if I'm judging by the gospel, I have to judge the Quran. False. But if the Christian scriptures have been corrupted, then Islam is also false. Because the Quran affirms the inspiration, preservation and reliability and authority of our scriptures. Therefore, Islam is false. Why should we be Muslim when this is a huge problem within your own scriptures?

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay, can I answer?

[Christian Apologist]

Yeah, sure.

[Muslim Apologist]

And I'll try the best of my ability. First and foremost, when the Quran refers to the previous scriptures, it also mentions how they were corrupted. There are verses that say, and woe to those who.

[Christian Apologist]

Can you give me some?

[Muslim Apologist]

Yeah, give me one second. Let me see if I can find it here, because I know the ones.

[Christian Apologist]

You could go to and I normally work.

[Muslim Apologist]

We do believe that, you know, God sent previous revelation before us. We also do believe that these books have been tampered with. I think the evidence is pretty clear. The Muslim, to my knowledge, doesn't look at the Bible like it's not a word of God, but it looks like a, a, a word of God. As if we have these two bottles of water and certain contaminants were placed in it that were not the words of Christ and not the teachings of God. So to my understanding, first of all, we're reading the Quran in English. I'm not an Arab. We all pray in Arabic to preserve its authenticity. Something that was not done with the Bible. And we can get into that after this. We believe that there was certain sects, certain people that changed the word of God. We know that the Israelites definitely changed the word of Moses in our opinion. How could Moses have written the book of Moses? Peace be upon him when he's writing about his own death. Moses was 120 when he died. Did Moses write that? Some scholars try to say Joshua did it, maybe, but that still wasn't Moses writing it. He couldn't have written about his own death. So clearly the entire book of Moses wasn't written by Moses. So what I believe the Quran is alluding to and there are people that are, you know, way more capable than I am, is that yes, some of these messages, some of these transmissions were corrupted and that whatever is the good from it, use whatever is manipulated. You can see when you use the filter, especially things like the ten Commandments, you know, that's always been where I hold my moral compass as a believer in God. I think that's somewhere where Christianity dropped the ball completely. So yes, when I look at a verse like you know, Matthew 26, verse 36 and Jesus fell on the face, fell on his face on the ground and prayed. I believe that to be authentic. I believe that's how he prayed. That's how Moses prayed. Moses prayed with his face on the ground. Right. Most Christians don't. There's some Assyrian sects that do and stuff like that. But I don't see the Christians emulating him in prayer. Right. So these to me are contradictions where I'm like okay, we pray like he prayed, our women dressed the way he dressed. So yes. Do I believe that the Gospel of Christ is a book of God? Yes. I don't believe we have his gospel in its authentic form. The Bible wasn't compiled into 40 to over really 325 years they were debating whether he was God or not God. They almost killed each other back then at the Council of Nicaea. This is a fact of history. Fact of history.

[Christian Apologist]

That is not a fact.

[Muslim Apologist]

So it is. Anyone can look it up Reader J. Lenhart's book. They couldn't figure out for 325 years whether he was God or not God. It almost tore Christianity apart.

[Christian Apologist]

That is false.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay, well, a lot of what you say is false too. But what I know also is that you know, you know, leaving Christianity and Islam on the side, how do you justify a lot of Christian denominations that in my opinion are performing idolatry? That's indirect. Forget the new Gospel. Forget the gospel. Forget the Quran. Go back to God's 10 rules. Don't make images. Don't pray to anybody but God. This was from Christianity's inception. You can say whatever denomination you are. Now again we go back to the mother of Christianity. We go back to Catholicism. Statues, saints, praying to everybody but God himself. In Exodus 33, God told Moses, Moses wanted to see God in his glory. God, how come I can't see you? Because no one can see the face of God and live. No one in human form can see God in this life, in this world, in this material world. No one can withstand the glory of God and live. Then you're telling me this same God decided not only are you going to see me, I'm going to come down myself, you're going to see me in the flesh. I guess God forgot. I guess God just, I guess he just forgot. Either the Bible has these inconsistencies and Jesus is God, or we can see the tampering, the changing of these verses, the way it was compiled. You can sit here and say it was his disciples. Most historical people that are being fair to history will tell you There is no 100% proof that these were his disciples. And the person that wrote 25% of the Bible, Paul definitely never met Jesus Christ. He saw an apparition of him as he's wiping out the first Christians of by which the Ebionites are the most famous ones who never said they were early Christians who consider themselves Israelites that believed he was the Messiah. But he was not divine. And again, throughout Christian history, it took them 325 years to get on the same page to the point that there was civil unrest, there was blood spilling. Pull up the history of the council Nicene. Ask if there was violence and blood letting. Were people actually about to kill each other over this because they couldn't agree on his divinity?

[Christian Apologist]

No one was killed at the council.

[Muslim Apologist]

No, I just looked not at the council meeting up to. That's why they had the council. There was about to be a civil war within Christianity in its early. It took you guys. 325 years, brother. Go ahead.

[Christian Apologist]

Covered a lot of stuff there. I'm addressing.

[Muslim Apologist]

I'm going to shut up now.

[Christian Apologist]

I wrote notes.

[Muslim Apologist]

Do your thing.

[Christian Apologist]

Let's go back to the Islamic dilemma. Even if you're right, there are places where the Quran says the Bible's been corrupted. Islam is false because the Quran says for us to judge by the gospel in those corrupted scriptures. That's crazy, man. That's crazy. You got to actually address the verses. Super 2946 says, oh, say to the people of the book, we believe in what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to you. So you're commanded to believe in our scriptures.

[Muslim Apologist]

Believe that God sent these books doesn't mean believe them in their form now that he sent them.

[Christian Apologist]

Okay, that's not what it says. It says believe in them. Not in the current form. That's a qualifier. Let's not add to the words of Allah. That sounds like we're committing shirk. Because you're going to become a partner with Allah. That's a problem. So either way, however, the verse you're going to is Surah 279, which just says that some people write the book with their own hand, but that also implies that they have the scriptures with them. Because just six verses later, Allah tells the Jews believe in the whole book that I sent you. So it's clearly talking about other things they're writing, not that they're actually corrupting the actual Torah itself. And by the way, that's just to the Jews, it never mentions Christians doing this stuff. So according to the Quran, the Christians still have the preserved and authoritative words of Allah that we are supposed to judge by. And if I'm going to do that, I have to judge. Islam is false. This is the Islamic dilemma. This is why we know Islam is false. You brought up Matthew, you said, but Jesus prayed with his face down. But what did he say in Matthew 26:39, Father, remove this cup from me. He can't be a Muslim because he called Allah Father 10 verses earlier.

[Muslim Apologist]

What else did he say there? What else did he say there, though?

[Christian Apologist]

Ten verses earlier, he instituted the Lord's Supper where he gave alcohol. You were talking before the show. We got to reject alcohol. Jesus said, you have to drink alcohol if you're going to be a Christian. We have to partake of the Eucharist, which involves wine. Let's talk about Nicaea. Totally blown out of proportion. Even scholars like every Muslim's favorite scholar, Bart Ehrman, notes this at The Council of Nicaea. It was a dispute over the Arian heresy. Arius believed Jesus was a God, but not the God. He was a created God. Most of the overwhelming majority of the 250 bishops present there sided against him. This was not a huge civil issue. This was a minor sect that was rejected by them. And they, of course, the overwhelming majority sided with what the Church had always taught, that Jesus is God, he is the most high, with the Father and the Holy Spirit. You brought up graven images in the Old Testament. Okay, the thing about graven images, this is actually a misconception. They never were banning just images. This is something Islam gets wrong. They were banning idols in the ancient world. This is a cool thing. You might find this interesting. They would make an image of the gods in the surrounding cultures around Israel and then they'd go through a ritual practice. It often involved a mouthwashing ritual for some weird reason. And then they said that the deity would be imbued into the idol. His essence would be there. God says, you can't contain me in an idol. You can't make a graven image because I am the Creator. You're not going to contain me in a little idol, therefore no graven images. That was not banning images generally, or just pictures. It was banning graven images. That's something different. You brought up the Ebionites. Ebionites didn't come about till late first century, maybe second century. They did believe Jesus was a man. They were now Muslim man. They also believed they could become Christs. They believed that Christ was a heavenly spirit that descended upon Jesus at his baptism and, and left him at the crucifixion. And they believe Jesus died and resurrected. They were more similar to Gnostic groups, but different in some ways. Some of them even rejected the virgin birth. They're not your friends in this, I'm telling you. And they were a late heretical group. They came much later. And again, that is just complete and total misconceptions. We can actually argue that the Bible is one of the most reliable documents from the ancient world. The Gospels go back to eyewitnesses. Studies have just been done on this that we can actually argue there are reliable accounts there. If you want to get into that.

[Muslim Apologist]

I think the viewers can do their own research on that. And you brought up all the sources you have. And I think, you know, again, these are differences in opinion. I don't care what you say. Making pictures, images. Look at the way they mock Jesus Christ. They're making movies about him. Nicholas Cage is about to play Jesus Christ in a film. It's horrible playing, which I condemn 100% as a Muslim. And this is where Muslims and Christians can unite because they are desecrating and disrespecting this very important, you know, person to both of us. But why are they able to do that? Because you're making pictures, because you're making images of your supposed God. And I think that's your interpretation. I think the Ten Commandments are extremely clear. I am one God. I am a jealous God. Don't pray to anyone but me. Orthodoxy, Catholicism, saints, this, that everyone but God. I know you're not of those denominations, but those go way back, brother. So, again, these are opinions. There's different Christian scholars, Muslim scholars. I like to go back to fundamentals. I say to the Christian, the Muslim, you can't get it right. Look at the Ten Commandments. That's what you should be following, period.

[Christian Apologist]

I totally agree with you that we should get it.

[Muslim Apologist]

And if we all live by those 10 rules, not a single one of us on the earth, I think, would have problems even in today's world. And I think that's why they're so important. I do believe that the way the Bible was compiled, the amount of time it took, how long did it take to get the final version? Final version of how many times after his alleged crucifixion?

[Christian Apologist]

You're asking two different questions here, though.

[Muslim Apologist]

How long before we got the Bible we have today?

[Christian Apologist]

You're asking two different questions, just canonized.

[Muslim Apologist]

How long?

[Christian Apologist]

Okay, so let me answer both questions. How long did it take the Bible to be written? The New Testament was written in the first century. Completely written and done. All the books in what language? It was written in Greek.

[Muslim Apologist]

All Greek, right?

[Christian Apologist]

Yeah.

[Muslim Apologist]

What was Jesus primary language?

[Christian Apologist]

Greek and Aramaic.

[Muslim Apologist]

Greek was his primary language?

[Christian Apologist]

No, it's probably Aramaic. But he spoke.

[Muslim Apologist]

It was probably. How do you not know? You're a Christian. You don't know the language that God spoke.

[Christian Apologist]

What are you talking about?

[Muslim Apologist]

What was his primary language?

[Christian Apologist]

Aramaic and Greek. He was bilingual.

[Muslim Apologist]

So it wasn't Greek.

[Christian Apologist]

I just said Greek.

[Muslim Apologist]

So you're going to say he's definitely bilingual. Then you spoke both languages at the same time?

[Christian Apologist]

According to modern scholarship, yes, he spoke both languages. In fact, Peter J. Williams, not what I've studied. Peter J. Williams notes that the Sermon on the Mount was probably given in Greek.

[Muslim Apologist]

Can you type in what was the Jesus primary language? Primary language?

[Christian Apologist]

It will be Aramaic. But most scholars like Stanley Porter, Peter J. Williams, Maurice Casey will say he was bilingual.

[Muslim Apologist]

Because they were there.

[Christian Apologist]

No, we can know from the actual research done on the New Testament in the culture.

[Muslim Apologist]

What was Jesus? You guys say he was a Jew.

[Christian Apologist]

He was a Jew. Of course he was.

[Muslim Apologist]

So why don't you follow Judaism?

[Christian Apologist]

Because he's the Christ.

[Muslim Apologist]

He kept kosher. Yeah, he was circumcised.

[Christian Apologist]

What did he tell you?

[Muslim Apologist]

He didn't come down and say pray like this. That came after him. He literally did come after. You're following the example of the master of God himself. Why are you not keeping kosher? Why do Christians eat pork? Why do you not get circumcised? Why do you not practice what God did in front of all of us? Okay, literally, if he's God, he did this in front. Why are you not following the example he even left in your own book? So there's no uniformity of prayer anywhere in your religion except our Father's prayer motions and this and that. You guys all have different versions. There is absolutely no uniform. Let me finish. You got to give Islam one thing. Sunni and Shia, there are some differences. But there's still only one version of the Quran. And for the most part, except the exceptions of leaving their hands to the side, the motions of worship are uniform. And everyone knows that you can only pray in the Arabic language. He's saying a man that spoke Aramaic brought us a book in Greek, which is what the word Bible means. Biblos. Any language scholar will tell you you lose up to 20 to 30% just in translation. I, as a Muslim, can say, when we're looking at these verses in Christian, I mean, I'm sorry, when we're looking at the verses of the Quran. I am not an Arabic scholar. I do not speak Arabic. I can pray in Arabic. I don't know in what context the way they do. I don't. I know that there's 20 to 30% lost. I know I can't read that book the way an Arab can that understands Arabic because there's certain things that just don't cross over when you translate. Any scholar will tell you that. So you're sitting here telling me a book that took at least a minimum 100 years, up to 325, depending on which scholar he wants to quote or not quote. These can all be debated. They will debate amongst themselves one language to another language to another language. 20%. 20%. 20%. 20% easily provable. No uniformity in prayer, not in the motions, not in what you should be saying. Some people believe you can go in tongues and jump around. Some can believe you have a full band. Baptist. No uniformity whatsoever at all throughout the entire faith. I say go back to the Ten Commandments. No pictures, no images. Anything that violates those ten Commandments clearly corruptible. Like I said, the Roman Catholic Church spread this faith throughout the earth. The majority of it came from them. They're the ones that held the Council of Nicaea. People can do their research. Many early Christians didn't believe he was God. That came later. I believe most of this corruption 100% came from Paul. Jesus birthday is on. What day? What day is Jesus birthday on?

[Christian Apologist]

Are you seriously about to see what I think you're about to do?

[Muslim Apologist]

What am I going to do? The correlations to Mithraism.

[Christian Apologist]

Yes, you're about to.

[Muslim Apologist]

December 20th. I don't know. Coincidence? I don't know. The people that spread the religion believed in a sun God born on December 25th who sacrificed himself. The people that spread the religion are the same people that Jesus said he didn't come for. I didn't come for the Romans. He came for who? The lost sheep of Israel who spread his message and word. Pagans. Pagan Romans spread his word. Okay, back 325 years after this whole.

[Christian Apologist]

Conversation has been misconception. I have to correct after misconception after correct. Okay, so let me go through these points. Go ahead and talk for five minutes. I'm going to go backwards. Let's start with Christmas. I sell T shirts. You know what they say on them? Christmas is not pagan. Because every year for the past 10 years I have to debunk this myth yet again. There is no source whatsoever that says Mithra was born on December 25. That is a lie. Christmas is a Christian holiday. It has no paganism involved. I have done countless videos debunking this time and time again. There is absolutely no evidence that Christmas came from Mithraism or any of that nonsense. Please stop spreading that nonsense. It has been debunked by myself and historians like Thomas Schmidt, Philip Nothap and many others for a long time now. Pure nonsense. You said Paul corrupted Christianity. Pure and utter nonsense. Your own sources say Paul was an apostle. It's in tabarity, it's in Life of Ibn Asaq that that he mentions this around like page 652, 653 in Life of Muhammad that Paul and Peter went to Rome to preach for Jesus and Allah and that I can even argue from the Quran. Surah 355 and Surah 61:14 say that talking about the disciples and the Christians of The first century. Allah is going to make them uppermost. This is in Surah 61 14. Who was made uppermost? It was the Trinitarian Christians, the people that believed Paul was an apostle of God. Why is Allah supporting someone you say corrupted the message? That's insane. You say we're not following what Jesus taught. Jesus taught we can pray to him. You go to John 14, he says, John 14:11. He says, Believe me that I am in my Father and that I and the Father is in me also. Or else believe on account of the works themselves. Truly, truly I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do. And greater works than these he will do. Because I'm going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. He's going to the Father and he says we can ask him. That's prayer. He's saying that we can pray to him. We are following exactly what Jesus taught in that. Now you are upset that we don't do certain motions. I mean, Jesus never said that kind of thing. We can pray standing, we can pray with our heads down. It happens in the Orthodox and Catholic church, for example. But you also brought up the Bible being corrupted. I want to talk about that briefly. I don't need to argue with a Muslim that the Bible has not been corrupted because I can go to the Quran. As I said, the Quran confirms the preservation inspiration of our scriptures. For example, it says things like Christians judged by the gospel, Surah 5:47, stand on our scripture, Surah 5:68, Surah 4 or Surah 3:3 to 4 says Allah revealed the Torah and the Gospel. And then the Quran says none can change his words. So I can. If I want to argue with a Muslim, I wouldn't do this. I was arguing with an atheist. But I. And I wouldn't do. When I do my series on the reliability of the Gospels, I go over tons of data showing reliability. But when I'm talking specifically to a Muslim, I don't need to do anything other than appeal to your book, which says my scriptures have not been corrupted, which says they are inspired scriptures, none can change his words and I can go to them. And if that's the case, again, Islam has to be false. Because if we have the inspired scriptures, they contradict the Quran. If we're to judge by those inspired scriptures, we have to judge Islam as false. This is why everyone should convert to Christianity, because we. If. Because Islam is cooked at this point.

[Muslim Apologist]

So I showed you earlier that there's verses that also say that the books were manipulated in the Quran. The Quran doesn't say that they weren't. There's verses that show that it was corrupted. Okay. We do believe that God sent them. I believe in the context through English translation. Maybe someone can clarify me in the comments from the Muslim side. Again, there's people way more qualified. We're reading in English. They won't even admit we admit it as Muslims. We say from Arabic to English, we're losing something. They won't say that. I'll say that. We can all agree, Michael, that there's.

[Moderator]

Been some lost meaning with the translation.

[Muslim Apologist]

When you go from one language.

[Christian Apologist]

For sure. Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah. This is why I constantly encourage people to get it. To get a lexicon, get an interlinear Bible and read what those words.

[Muslim Apologist]

So we believe that, you know. Yeah. So basically there's something lost in translation. The way I understand it in the context, and again, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, is yes, God is telling us I sent these books. And then in other passages, they were also corrupted. We believe the reason the Israelites were pushed out of Israel, ancient Israel, holy Israel, was they killed John the Baptist, peace and blessings be upon him. And then they tried to do the same to Jesus Christ. Their rabbis altered the books. And, you know, and so actually before they were, you know, conquered by the Babylonians, from the Muslim perspective, we believe the rabbis changed some of the books and God punished them for that. They were sent to Babylon. 100 years that made, from what I understand, under Egypt look like a vacation. Then the second temple was built. After the Persians conquered, the Babylonians sent them back to the Holy Land. They're all waiting for the Messiah. And this is where Christians and Muslims agree. We believe that Messiah came back. His name wasn't Jesus, by the way, J didn't come out. The letter J. I mean, what is his name? Is it Jesus or Yeshua?

[Christian Apologist]

Jesus is a transliteration.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay, so what is the name? Because creation. I don't hear them. They all use different names. So which one is it?

[Christian Apologist]

The original name would probably have been Yeshua or Yeshu.

[Muslim Apologist]

Probably.

[Christian Apologist]

Yeah. Because we're talking about the Galilean dialect. And so they pronounce things. Yeah, they would pronounce Greek. These are names, but not Greek, though.

[Muslim Apologist]

Yeah, a name is a simple thing to convert.

[Christian Apologist]

I mean, you translate right names all the time. We do it.

[Muslim Apologist]

But the J didn't Exist for how many years later?

[Christian Apologist]

I don't know. I don't know. But it doesn't matter. These are just transliterations.

[Muslim Apologist]

The letter J didn't even exist.

[Christian Apologist]

Not a big deal.

[Muslim Apologist]

I mean, it is. I mean, we're saying he's God, we're betting eternity on it.

[Christian Apologist]

He never says you have to call him by a specific name.

[Muslim Apologist]

But as far as you know, I think the same way you're trying to go this way or that way, it's the same thing you do with your faith. Take a couple sentences out of context, put it here. I think people can search for themselves, look into these things deeply. The overall theme is we're not enemies, we don't have to be enemies. And I don't think our doctrine teaches that. And I've already shown, I think throughout this conversation that both sides have guilty culprits in both sides of the faith that have done things in the name of Jesus in the name of God that they didn't have the right to do, Period. But what I do want to clarify is when we're talking about uniformity, Christianity can't even hold a candle to Islam. From prayer to worship across the globe, it is the largest body of people on earth that worship God the same way. There is a difference between supplication and worship. There is no uniform act of worship to the Creator. It's a free for all when it comes to Christianity. Yet Islam does mimic a lot of what the Israelites did. Also as defined in the Bible as Jesus Christ himself. Why was God praying in Matthew 26? A God gets prayed too. A God doesn't pray, especially if he's equal. Why does he need to call for backup? Matthew 26. Because he quoted the verse here earlier. Oh, my Father, if this cup can pass me not as I will, but as thou will. Meaning he had no power in that time. If he's the Father, he's the, you know, I'm sorry, the Alpha and the Omega. He knows the future, which he didn't know the hour. I don't know how he could be God if he didn't know the hour. Only the Father knows the hour. These are contradictions. He can't be the God if he doesn't know the hour. Only the Father knows the hour. Yet why is God praying to teach us. But you guys are not following his example. Your women are not covered the way his mother was. You do nothing for. Leave Islam completely. Eliminate Islam if you want. You're still not following your example. You're still not Praying the way he prayed. I agree. When they say you can pray any way you want. Yes. When you're asking God for something. God, please, Muslims do it. We call it supplication. God, please help me. God forgive us. God, please end these wars. God guide us if we're wrong. That's supplication worship. There is no uniform worship in the entire faith of Christianity.

[Christian Apologist]

All right, so let me talk about some of this stuff. So good. So you've again, you're going back, you're saying there are verses in the Quran that say it's corrupted. Again, if you're right, this is a major contradiction in the Quran. A major contradiction because again, it says in Surah 2946, say to the people of the Book, we believe in what has been revealed to us. In what has been revealed to you, our God. And your God is one. So your God is telling you to believe in corrupted scriptures.

[Muslim Apologist]

Now what does that mean? Brother, walk there for a second.

[Christian Apologist]

It's important.

[Muslim Apologist]

Walk there for a second.

[Christian Apologist]

Second. I'll do this one time.

[Muslim Apologist]

That verse doesn't justify exactly what you say. Yes, we as Muslims believe God sent the Torah, gave the ten Commandments. Don't worship one, worship only one. God don't make we believe that. We believe Jesus brought the same message. That doesn't prove. Yes, God's saying you should believe what I, I sent. When you read the first chapter, the, the cow, the, you know, the.

[Christian Apologist]

No, you gotta let me finish. He's interrocking now.

[Muslim Apologist]

We're going on another monologue.

[Christian Apologist]

You're going on another monologue here?

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay, all I'm saying is, I know it doesn't prove. We're saying, yes, we do believe. The ten Commandments came down, the Psalms of David came down, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, his spoken word, but he did not leave finished during his lifetime.

[Christian Apologist]

Okay?

[Muslim Apologist]

People inserted what they wanted to and they did. And then once again, he's talking to them specifically, not all of Christians, them.

[Christian Apologist]

He's talking to people in the past.

[Muslim Apologist]

The people that corrupted the book. Yes, people in the past corrupted Christ teachings.

[Christian Apologist]

Okay, so Muhammad is going in sewer five to graves and saying, oh, dead people of the book believe in the gospel. And judge by that, that doesn't make any sense. He's talking to Christians in his day and he's telling them to believe in scriptures you say have been corrupted. And then he says in Surah 2946, oh, by the way, Muslims, you should also believe in these books that have apparently been corrupted. This doesn't make Any sense, Islam is cooked. It has this major contradiction where it's confirming our Scriptures. But then Muslims come along and say it's been corrupted. And by the way, there is no explicit verse in the Quran that says the Christian Scriptures have been corrupted. All Muslims can do is run to Surah 9:27, which says that some write the book with their own hand when speaking of the Jew. But then right after that it tells the to believe in their whole book, not in parts, not in the parts that have not been corrupted. The whole book telling us that Allah through Muhammad believed that the books were there and uncorrupted and everyone should believe in them. This is a major contradiction. If rabbis corrupted it as you're saying it, Allah is confirming corrupted scriptures, therefore Islam is false. This is why we have to reject this. And again, you asked the question, let's go to this issue. Why does God pray to Himself? Okay, this is modalism. That's a saying we have in the church. It's called. That's modalism, Patrick. Okay. The reason why we say it is because it's a meme that goes around.

[Muslim Apologist]

But what does that mean? I'm sorry.

[Christian Apologist]

Modalism is the idea that God is not three distinct persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It's that he presents himself in three modes. Sometimes as a Father, sometimes as a Son, sometimes as a spirit. That was taught by heretics like Noetus and Sibelius. They were condemned by the Church. We reject that. So when people say, why is God praying to himself? I don't know. Ask the heretics. No Christian believes that we believe in three distinct persons. And by the way, the Father prays to the Son in the Bible. If you go to Hebrews chapter one, he quotes books of the Psalms. Psalms is a prayer book. The father quotes Psalm 45 and Psalm 102 when speaking of the Son. Prayer is just how communication happens in the Catholic and Orthodox Church. They can pray to saints, but it's just communication. When the Father, when the Son is on the earth and he wants to communicate with the Father, that's just prayer. And when the Father talks to the Son, that's also prayer. It happens in Hebrews1, for example. This has never been a problem. You say, why are we not following Jesus? Because we don't pray in a certain direction or cover our women. We follow what Jesus taught us to do. He said, partake of the Eucharist, baptize, spread the Great Commission, pray our Father who art in heaven. Muslims don't follow Jesus because you Follow superficial things, not what he actually commanded. Nowhere did he command it. We have to pray in a certain direction, let alone facing Mecca.

[Muslim Apologist]

Command women to cover.

[Christian Apologist]

He never once said women have to be modest. Jesus never.

[Muslim Apologist]

It's not in the Bible.

[Christian Apologist]

Jesus never said women have to cover.

[Muslim Apologist]

Does the Bible command women to be modest?

[Christian Apologist]

In First Timothy, there is a verse about saying women need to dress modestly. However, if you read the historical context, Paul is talking about not wearing excessive wealth. That's mainly what he's focusing on because he was saying, like, don't have these rich women showing up wearing all their jewels and jewelry. It's disrespectful to the people that don't. Can't afford that kind of stuff, man. So, no, there's no. There's no place where Jesus says you have to wear a head covering for.

[Moderator]

Check that. Yeah. Can you pull this out, Kyla?

[Muslim Apologist]

That's more the Old Testament, I guess.

[Moderator]

Jesus never said that woman must cover head covering. Teaching in the New Testament comes from Paul.

[Christian Apologist]

It comes in 1 Corinthians 11. Now here's the thing about 1 Corinthians 11. It's one of the hardest places in the Bible to interpret and translate because in that same chapter, Paul says women have long hair and that's their head covering. It comes, I believe, in verse 11. So we have this concept in the church that also happened really much in the Reformation, which is women can wear a head covering, but it's not a necessary teaching because they have that natural head covering of long hair. So this is a debated passage, I'll admit that. But again, it's not a universal teaching. It doesn't go back to Jesus. We are following what Jesus taught. He said, pray to him. He said, get baptized. He said, spread the Gospel. Spread the gospel, which is that he died, resurrected and atoned for sins. If you Muslims want to follow Jesus, why are you not doing that?

[Muslim Apologist]

I believe we are following what he brought.

[Christian Apologist]

What did he bring them?

[Muslim Apologist]

More than you guys. How? We follow his example. We don't eat pork. We get circumcised.

[Christian Apologist]

Where do you say to do that?

[Muslim Apologist]

We pray to no one but God.

[Christian Apologist]

Where do you say to do that?

[Muslim Apologist]

We don't give anyone power but God.

[Christian Apologist]

What do you say to do?

[Muslim Apologist]

We don't make. I guess God forgot. Is it the same God as the Old Testament or it's not.

[Christian Apologist]

It's the same God.

[Muslim Apologist]

God gave us 10 rules. Don't make pictures. We don't announce statutes. We don't. We don't pray to Every Tom, Dick and Harry, we pray to him directly. No one gave authority on earth to make anyone an intermediary between God and them. Now, you could argue for Jesus. I get it. He's a part of your God system. But from the two biggest denominations of Christianity, Catholicism and Orthodoxy, they have the authority to say people they're judging for God. When they make people saints, I know he's going to heaven. No, you don't. You don't know what was in their heart. God will judge them on judgment Day whether they were a saint or not. So again, the biggest denominations of Christianity of I know you don't agree with. We're talking about the large.

[Christian Apologist]

I don't say my denomination. I just want to be clear.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay, I know you don't private. But the majority are Catholic.

[Christian Apologist]

That's true.

[Muslim Apologist]

They're the ones that spread the faith, canonized it, held the councils, spread the message. A people Jesus did not come for. He came for the Israelites. They're the ones that spread it. Paul was working with them to wipe them out. This is what we believe. I'm not saying it to attack you. And I think the correlations show it. We pray the way Jesus prayed. We bow in prayer. We put. That's worship, not supplication. Are women just like his mother? We keep Halal is very similar to kosher. The animal has rights, can't be just killed. Not the way they kill meat in these countries is line them up. We're consuming negative energy because of the way they're slaughtered. So again, these are things that you know, people can decide for themselves. You mentioned that our book. Because I forgot this point. Because I haven't taken notes at all. I don't know why I asked for the pay attention. But you know that we are programmed to hate Christians. Or like I mentioned from the beginning of this, that they're infidels. Well then why would the Quran say that we should look at their book? Use the book. You can't be an infidel if the book itself is saying I sent them revelation before you. Right. So that what the news uses, the media uses. Clearly even him has supported that. That this is not the view of Muslims and what our doctrine teaches us. It just doesn't. Period. Now, did everyone get the message? Maybe not. But neither did a lot of Christians, brother. And that's what I'm saying. If we want to judge any doctrine by its followers, there's not a single faith left on earth. But again, I will also say that's not the religion's fault, that's the so called followers fault for not doing what's the right thing. And again the simplest way to break it all down is the Ten Commandments. If you're in violation of those, I don't believe you're following what Moses, Jesus or Muhammad brought. And that's literally my argument.

[Christian Apologist]

You said you follow Jesus by his example. Where do you get his example from?

[Muslim Apologist]

So we have our own narrations of him.

[Christian Apologist]

Not a lot of them, most of it comes from the Bible, so.

[Muslim Apologist]

But we have some very beautiful ones. So my first question I guess to answer that is what was based on Christian doctrine? And again I am learning from you things I didn't know about certain denominations and you know, certain practices or thoughts and I, you know, thank you, appreciate sharing that. And again I'm not sitting here judging and saying you're going like I'm not God, you know. But what is the general consensus in Christianity as Jesus Christ's first miracle?

[Christian Apologist]

He turned water into wine.

[Muslim Apologist]

So he turned water into alcohol.

[Christian Apologist]

Yes.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay. This is one of the main reasons why I will always believe what I believe about Jesus Christ. I think the Islamic tradition has something that's very easily verifiable and not some story that Muhammad would pull out of thin air. And that miracle, we believe his first miracle and I know, you know, it is that he spoke from the minute he was born. That sounds more godlike to me. That doesn't really exist in the Christian general consensus. There was a couple of non, you know, canonized books that may have mentioned it, but it's not really the general consensus of Christianity or their books. So let me finish the story because it's important. We believe that because the Virgin Mary, peace be upon her, which has her own, her own chapter in the Holy Quran, she is the most important woman in the religion of Islam, period. She has her own chapter. We believe and it makes perfect sense because the punishment for adultery in the Old Testament because Jesus came as a Jew, he was born to the Jews. The punishment for adultery is to be stoned to death. He's even one of his famous quotes with thee who has not sinned, cast the first stone, right? Because that's what they do is stone you to death, right, for committing adultery. We believe from our tradition the Virgin Mary was the way the Christian says it, the most beloved woman of God on earth. She was chosen to carry Jesus Christ, the Messiah. She was without sin and for her own protection while she was pregnant with Jesus because she was not married and no man had touched her. If The Israelites would have seen her pregnant, they would have killed her, they would have stoned her for death. In the Talmud we know what they think about her and what they think about Jesus Christ, which I, I can agree, you can agree was not received revelation from God that came while they were under occupation from the Babylonians. But getting back to the main point, their first miracle of the most important human being that ever lived, you know, or God as they say it is. He comes down, he's being breastfed, takes him a couple decades, he's building tables, he's a carpenter. And then his first miracle is to make alcohol, which I think has destroyed the earth. I've lost so many family and friends to alcohol. I don't think it's alcohol in the way they think. I think it was some type of grape juice in my opinion. But again, lost in translation in my opinion. What's the first miracle in the Holy Quran of Jesus Christ which I think proves that this book came from God and clarifies what Jesus, who Jesus was. His first miracle was when Mary delivered him. She goes back to the town and the Israelites get out. How do you have a kid? You're not married. She's holding baby Jesus. God commanded her in the Quran, do not speak when they attack you point to the child. They build up this mob. They start calling her every name you can because they're calling her the names you would call a woman who is out of wedlock and having a baby. They want to stone her to death. His first miracle in the tradition of Islam was to defend the honor and the dignity of his mother. Because the minute they started attacking, he spoke. Do not attack her or me, for I am the Messiah that you wait for. When they heard him speak, not even a couple days old, no more than a couple weeks, an infant, they parted like the Red Sea. His first miracle was from the moment he was born, does not even exist in the Christian tradition. And it was to defend the honor of the Virgin Mary, which all of us can agree based on Israelite law. If she would have been holding that baby and everyone knew she was a daughter of Jacob, the tribe of Jacob, they would have stoned her to death. It doesn't even exist in the Christian tradition. So that is false peace and blessings. Well, and the main Christianity doesn't so clarify.

[Christian Apologist]

Then let's talk about that. So this is the problem with the Quran. In Surah in Surina, Muhammad is called the ear by his opponents and the Quran addresses that because he's hearing stories and just Believing them. The story of Jesus speaking from the cradle, turning clay birds, turning clay birds into real birds. This comes from a Christian fictional work called the Infancy Gospel of Thomas that everyone knows and modern scholars are pretty much in agreement. This is where the Quran is getting this from. It's ripping off these fictional stories about Jesus and passing them off if they were real ones. You said earlier that Paul never met Jesus. How should we trust him? Well, I mean that's exactly why we should reject Muhammad. He was just hearing these crazy stories and believing them and putting them in the Quran. If we should reject Paul because he never met Jesus, all the more is we should reject Muhammad because he didn't ever met Jesus and he wrote hundreds of years later, that's a problem. And so this whole idea about the first miracle issue, this doesn't help Islam and make it look better. This helps it make, make it look more ahistorical. We know it's getting their stories from these apocrypha pseudo pigrapha works that Christians wrote as fictional accounts.

[Muslim Apologist]

I'm an illiterate man that couldn't read or write. Yes, he couldn't read or write.

[Christian Apologist]

He was called the Ear for a reason.

[Muslim Apologist]

He was mostly Arabs couldn't read and write.

[Christian Apologist]

He was getting all his stuff from.

[Muslim Apologist]

These illiterate culture before him. Illiterate.

[Christian Apologist]

That's proving my point, sir.

[Muslim Apologist]

No, it is proving my point. Are you going to copy if you can't read and write?

[Christian Apologist]

I'm not saying he's copying, he's hearing. Because it's not a direct copy in the Quran of the Infancy Gospel Thomas. It sounds like an oral tradition he heard that was in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas that various sects may have been using. And then he said, and he puts it in the Quran hypothesis. It's the best explanation.

[Muslim Apologist]

Historians that are going to favor your faith giving their opinion, but it doesn't matter.

[Christian Apologist]

At the end of the day it does matter.

[Muslim Apologist]

That's not a fact, that's your opinion.

[Christian Apologist]

You keep interrupting me. Let me finish. It doesn't matter because the Quran still affirms my scriptures and says to judge by them. And the book of John is very clear. Jesus's first miracle in John chapter two was turning water into wine. Therefore those miracles the Quran mentioned could not have happened because according to the Quran, my book is inspired inspiration scripture. Even in the life of Ibn ASAQ on page 102 to 104 he says the Gospel of John contains the Injeel. This is in the life of Ibn Asaq, one of the Sources, The Sira. Okay, so they're saying that this is a reliable source in the Muslim tradition. If that's the case, again you just created contradictions in Islam. Because the Gospel of John, which is supposed to be inspired scripture according to Allah, says his first miracle is turning water into wine, not speaking from the cradle. Therefore again we've created more contradictions in Islam. Islam is false.

[Muslim Apologist]

So God came down in 20 years. He does nothing, builds tables, hangs around. I mean he's just chilling. He's being breastfed by Mary. I mean that's God.

[Christian Apologist]

Yes.

[Muslim Apologist]

He's drinking, eating.

[Christian Apologist]

What's wrong with that? He lives.

[Muslim Apologist]

This is the beauty of Christianity. Eat, drinks, pray.

[Christian Apologist]

This is the.

[Muslim Apologist]

Does not have the qualities of the Creator.

[Christian Apologist]

This is the beauty.

[Muslim Apologist]

It is a beautiful.

[Christian Apologist]

Let me explain.

[Muslim Apologist]

I will admit it's so beautiful. Can I explain why I came down? He's merciful. Beautiful.

[Christian Apologist]

Let me explain why.

[Muslim Apologist]

I don't think it's the same God of the Old Testament.

[Christian Apologist]

Let me explain why. Okay, because you have. Okay. Christ is not a God who says do as I say or else. But a God who says come and follow me, do as I do and together we'll change this world. Washing one sinner at a time. At the last supper he put on servants clothes and got down and washed the disciples feet. Because the Son of Man came to serve, not to be served. You want to change the world? You live like Jesus. You serve, you surrender yourself, you die to yourself. That is what is the beauty of the Creator. He leads by example. He comes down in the flesh, lives the life we should have lived, dies the death we all deserve and then leads humanity into a better world. That's lacking in Islam. Islam butchers that and takes that away. It ruins this beautiful message that has.

[Muslim Apologist]

Changed the world and contradicts himself on the books he sent before.

[Christian Apologist]

Where does he do that?

[Muslim Apologist]

You can't see me in human form. Exodus 30:3. Don't make images, don't make pictures. Don't pray to anybody but me. You can say whatever you want. The audience will decide.

[Christian Apologist]

So when? When.

[Muslim Apologist]

But I think we can agree the fact you keep saying that we respect your books and we have to use them. So going back to the initial theme of this entire conversation, I think you've proven and I've proven why Christians and Muslims should not be enemies, should not kill each other, should not go to war, especially because politicians say so and that we can coexist on this planet and let God or even Jesus when he returns, decide who was wrong or right. Until then, I bear you peace and blessings.

[Christian Apologist]

Thank you.

[Muslim Apologist]

And I say to you and all Christians, and that's also how Jesus said it.

[Christian Apologist]

And I say peace and blessings to you. We pray for you. We pray for our enemies, those who persecute us. I wish we could work together, but I mean again, this is.

[Muslim Apologist]

We are right now.

[Christian Apologist]

Hold on, let me finish. We're talking about these contradictions. You said that he can't see his face. Actually this scholars have noted that's an idiom in the Old testament because Deuteronomy 4 says when he spoke to Moses, he spoke to him out of the pillar of fire bush. So they were face to face, but Moses wasn't seeing the face based on the historical context.

[Muslim Apologist]

Yeah, so I don't want to point that out. I know, but yeah, I agree.

[Christian Apologist]

Again, let me say what I said at the beginning. I wish more Muslims were like you back. But again, that is not what myself. That is not what the other Christian apologists and Christians around the world experience every day. We experience countless accounts of persecution, martyrdom, hate. It's always coming against us. And I'm just saying I wish we could work together, but we cannot until Islam reforms or transforms into something that is not going to treat us like the house of War, which it calls us and declares war on us constantly and wants to persecute us, turn us into dimmies, make us pay a humiliating tax called the Jizya. This is not going to work out the way.

[Muslim Apologist]

What about the tax? This is in Europe, brother.

[Christian Apologist]

This is not.

[Muslim Apologist]

What about the taxes throughout Christian kingdoms used to take 70, 80%. Their people starved. People would have wished they could have been under the Jizya tax. It was 2.5%. People in America, people in America today would take a 2.5% flat tax, you know it would you take a 2.5% flat Tax? You're a Jew or Christian, you don't have to fight, you don't have to serve in the military, the Muslims have to protect you. The fact that Christians have remained in those lands to this day when we could have wiped them out is proof to what Islam really stands for.

[Christian Apologist]

In other nonsense.

[Muslim Apologist]

With that said, brother, it is what it is. I do have.

[Moderator]

Let him answer before.

[Christian Apologist]

Abu Bakr put a Jizya on certain Jews Arabia at 50%.

[Muslim Apologist]

Where? Which certain where in the south. General consensus is 2.5%.

[Christian Apologist]

That was not always the case.

[Muslim Apologist]

OK? That's what everyone staff quoted and documented sometimes. It was always the general consensus.

[Christian Apologist]

It's general conception varied from culture to culture.

[Muslim Apologist]

Everyone can chat gbt.

[Christian Apologist]

Please also check the Hadith on this. What Abu Bakr did, for example, to the. In Arabia. So there's a problem there. The other problem.

[Muslim Apologist]

There wouldn't be any on earth if it wasn't for Muslims. Your people, the ones that wiped them out. Throughout history, even up and down modern.

[Christian Apologist]

Times, Moses Maimonides said, these people have not. There's no people that have treated us.

[Muslim Apologist]

Worth worse than worse commodities was like.

[Christian Apologist]

The best he was. And he said the Muslims.

[Muslim Apologist]

Is that why he left Christian Europe to go live with the Muslims?

[Christian Apologist]

No, he left Muslim Europe to go to. To go to Egypt. People living under the Almohads, my friend.

[Muslim Apologist]

You guys wiped them out wherever you could. They went wherever you guys could. You wiped them out. Even the First Crusade. You guys came with the Knights of Templar.

[Christian Apologist]

All right, if you didn't keep interrupting me.

[Muslim Apologist]

I'm not. We're finishing.

[Moderator]

Let him finish.

[Christian Apologist]

There are 1% Jews in the Middle East. Where'd they all go? They went to Europe, man. Moses Mahonides said the Ishmaelites. No one is treated as worse than these people. He had to. He had to pretend to convert to Islam for a couple years before he fled to some other place.

[Muslim Apologist]

Where are you getting this information from?

[Christian Apologist]

From historians.

[Muslim Apologist]

Historians or himself?

[Christian Apologist]

Mozambnadis wrote in an old letter, you.

[Muslim Apologist]

Can study how Jews were treated in Christian Europe compared to the Muslims.

[Christian Apologist]

They were not.

[Muslim Apologist]

Would you say that the Muslims do treat them better, though?

[Christian Apologist]

No, not all the time.

[Muslim Apologist]

No, not all the time. But in general, when it came to Christian lands. No.

[Christian Apologist]

No.

[Muslim Apologist]

Pull it up, please.

[Christian Apologist]

No. Why are there more Jews in Europe now than there are in the Middle east now? Because they keep getting persecuted and fleeing.

[Muslim Apologist]

No, actually there's a lot more Jews in the Middle east now. Because they were being massacred in the Holocaust by Christian countries. No, that's why they ended up going back to.

[Christian Apologist]

They went to Israel, not Syria.

[Muslim Apologist]

Yeah.

[Christian Apologist]

This is a big misconception, man.

[Muslim Apologist]

Put them in power in Syria, brother.

[Christian Apologist]

Who put who in power in Syria?

[Muslim Apologist]

Western nations have had control of the Middle east for over 100 years now. Who put these dictators in power?

[Christian Apologist]

Who put them in power, man? They're fighting among themselves. Western nations support various groups. I'm not saying that's reflective on Christianity.

[Muslim Apologist]

What does it say?

[Moderator]

I look this up.

[Muslim Apologist]

He just said on record that they treated them.

[Moderator]

Obviously, people. Do your own research. This is ch.

[Muslim Apologist]

Yeah, do your research. It's. I guess everything's a lie. Everything.

[Christian Apologist]

Historians.

[Muslim Apologist]

There's plenty of Historians who treated people.

[Moderator]

Better throughout history, Christians or Muslims. And this is chat GPT guys so don't take it out.

[Muslim Apologist]

Do your homework. I'm. That's what I'm saying here today. Go do your homework.

[Moderator]

The summary is in medieval and early modern history generally live more securely under Muslim rule than under Christian rule.

[Christian Apologist]

Okay then why did Moses under Christianity.

[Moderator]

Often faced pogroms, expulsions and systemic anti Semitism under Islam they had to pay extra taxes and accept second class status but often prospered culturally and economically especially compared to their treatment in Christian.

[Muslim Apologist]

They had their own courts, they had their own rulers.

[Christian Apologist]

Let me go back.

[Muslim Apologist]

They had autonomy within the Muslim empire. They were treated like dogs throughout Europe. That's again throughout history.

[Christian Apologist]

I have never said. You're putting words in my mouth. I never said that were treated perfectly in Christianity. But to pretend that they were living on sunshine rainbows under the Islamic world compared to pure nonsense. There are more throughout the Christian world now because of persecutions, because of discrimination, because them fleeing. Why did Jonathan Fox find that or I'm sorry Grim and Finky find that in in the Muslim world and Christian face four times the level of persecution and discrimination than what Muslim minority groups face. There's a reason for that in their own conclusions. This is a modern phenomenon. There is own conclusions. And is this comes from Islamic doctrines.

[Muslim Apologist]

I'm talking throughout history.

[Christian Apologist]

I can go to the Alma modern.

[Muslim Apologist]

Times it's become very hot.

[Christian Apologist]

Let's just talk about the Almohads. It severely persecuted Christians and people were fleeing north to the Christian kingdoms in Spain. There's a lot of.

[Muslim Apologist]

Yeah, there was a. And I agree there was a couple and he's not wrong about some of these rulers he's talking about but I'm talking about general consensus. The overwhelming majority of that time and most hostility between Muslims and has been in the last hundred years.

[Christian Apologist]

Then let's go to what historians say.

[Muslim Apologist]

Has there been some theology of persecution. You mentioned Omar right earlier.

[Christian Apologist]

Yeah.

[Muslim Apologist]

What happened when one of the governors of Omar the Jew was persecuted by the governor.

[Christian Apologist]

Which hadith are you talking about?

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay, this is not even Hadith. This is written in just history. He had a subject. The governor humiliated him in public, hit him with a stick. Omar summoned the governor second in command after the Prophet died. Peace be upon him. Then Abu Bakr, then Omar. Right.

[Christian Apologist]

Why did Muhammad expel all the Christians from Iranians?

[Muslim Apologist]

Omar, he didn't expel all the Jews.

[Christian Apologist]

It's in Hasahi al Baqari.

[Muslim Apologist]

Pull up again. Hadith are testaments the way your book is preserved, I don't know which one we're quoting exactly. They were preserved similar to the Bible. I heard this. I heard that there could be some discrepancies in there. Definitely with dates and human memory, but I forgot I was even going to say. Look, the point is this overall they can say whatever they want. People can go do this homework all day. As far as tolerance of faiths, why didn't we wipe you out when Salahuddin retook Jerusalem? You guys had massacred every Almost.

[Christian Apologist]

Don't bring that up. No, Salahuddin sold so many Christians into Salah slavery. Okay, for example, the, the. The Bish. The bishop better than being massive. Let me finish. Tried to ransom himself to get the Christians out. The way it's portrayed in that stupid movie Kingdom of Heaven is absurd.

[Muslim Apologist]

But I can agree it might not be the most historical.

[Christian Apologist]

Sold so many Christians into slavery. And again I'm going back to the Hadith. Muhammad said that he is commanded to expel all the Christians from Arabia. Clifford Bachman, in the worlds of medieval Europe said thousands died because of this. Okay. Jizya tax was imposed at high as high as 50%. Sometimes this is not this peaceful loving, sometimes not. In general, this is the earliest followers supposed to be the best.

[Muslim Apologist]

It was the taxes in the Christian kingdom. People starved to death giving paying taxes.

[Christian Apologist]

But they paid equal taxes. They did not give in a special tax.

[Muslim Apologist]

The general consensus is that the majority of Muslim subjects was 5% or less of their total income. I think most Americans would sign up. I today am paying 40% tolls income tax state I buy something like. Are you kidding me? The general consensus now was there a couple rotten rulers? Absolutely.

[Christian Apologist]

Well then you can say the same about Europe.

[Muslim Apologist]

Yes, but overall, okay. And as far as rules concerned, I'm pretty sure if someone would have rather had a chance at life than being massacred. You guys left no one there. You didn't leave it or a Muslim there.

[Christian Apologist]

That's a lie.

[Muslim Apologist]

That's.

[Christian Apologist]

That is a lie.

[Muslim Apologist]

Okay, I guess only the historians you quote are the ones that are telling.

[Christian Apologist]

You you need to quote something back at say.

[Muslim Apologist]

Listen, I. I've given you way more I think compromise on certain subjects than you.

[Christian Apologist]

I've quoted your sources, the Hadith and the Quran more than you have.

[Muslim Apologist]

But in any event, I do need to get to prayer. All right, if it's okay. We said 1 o'. Clock. Stop 101.

[Christian Apologist]

Let me just say I appreciate you being here. I appreciate the conversation. I wish more Muslims like were like.

[Muslim Apologist]

You, and I wish were like you. I don't think the Middle east would have been on fire for the last 75 years. And I hope we can get peace on this earth and everyone should have a right to go to the Holy Land, pray, worship God in their own way, and there's no reason to be enemies. And I think that's the most important thing today. People are going to decide what they want anyway. People are going to comment this, that take your side. Take my side. There is no side. If you find your truth, God will judge you and you as a human being. And I know you think this way, I think this way, whether it's a Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist. I don't have the right to end your life because you don't believe what I want to believe. And neither do you. And I think both of our faiths, at their core, that's what they believe. Respect.

[Moderator]

Thanks for your time, gentlemen.

[Muslim Apologist]

I want to say it was a pleasure and they did learn a lot of different perspectives from you, and I really appreciate it.

[Christian Apologist]

You too, man.

[Moderator]

We'll link their socials below. Guys, check them out. I'll see you on the next debate. Peace. I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm.

[Muslim Apologist]

Thank you.