Chance Kornuth: How He Lost a Quarter Million — And Rebuilt | DSH #1528

Summary

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Digital Social Hour | Chance Kornuth: How He Lost a Quarter Million — And Rebuilt | DSH #1528

Date: September 9, 2025
Host: Sean Kelly
Featured Guest: Chance Kornuth (poker pro and coach)
Special Guest/Commentator: Alex Foxen

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the world of high-stakes poker with Chance Kornuth, a three-time WSOP bracelet winner, renowned coach, and founder of Chip Leader Coaching. Kornuth shares candid stories about rebuilding after losing his bankroll, the nuances and evolution of poker strategy, the psychological demands and lifestyle of professional players, and his approach to teaching the next generation of stars. The conversation is rich with insights on game theory, mental resilience, the ethics and risks of private games, industry trends, and reflections on poker greats.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pattern Recognition, Bad Beats, and Bankroll Recovery

• Early Reference to Loss: Chance opens by sharing how his strong pattern recognition allowed him to spot suspicious play—but despite realizing he was being cheated in a private game, he still lost his rebuilt bankroll (“ran my roll back up to 250/4 million or something and lost it all in the game and had to rebuild again. Unfortunately.” [00:00])
• Rebuilding after Black Friday: Chance recounts the DOJ’s shutdown of online poker (“Black Friday”) and the emotional/financial strain of having most of his money frozen online [28:23-28:56]. Despite setbacks, he never seriously thought about quitting poker.

Quote:
“I had to rebuild my bankroll from nearly zero… after having hundreds of thousands. That was pretty hard.” – Chance Kornuth [28:35]

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2. World Series of Poker Life & Mindset

• Living in Vegas, Routine, and Mental Focus: Chance describes his routine during the WSOP—staying off-Strip for relaxation and recovery. High-stress tournament days require intentional rest and mental fortitude [01:16-01:34].
• The Reality of Card Dead Days: Being “card dead” (receiving bad hands) turns a 12-hour day into what feels like 20 hours [01:48-02:18].
• Mental and Physical Preparation: Chance emphasizes stamina, focus, and physical fitness—essential for a mentally strenuous schedule. He’s deliberate about breaks and managing his energy throughout the series [08:42-09:09].

Quote:
"If you really want to maximize your edge, you actually need to pay attention after you fold and look at your opponents. Gather live tells, information, bet sizing tells. That’s one of the things that separates me.” – Chance Kornuth [09:09]

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3. Coaching, Legacy, and Giving Back

• Transition to Coaching: Founding Chip Leader Coaching with a focus on giving back, training both elite and aspiring players. Chance, Alex Foxen, and Kristen Foxen recently launched an advanced “inner circle” for personalized coaching [02:22-02:50].
• Teaching vs. Playing: Chance discusses his motivation to teach, how seeing his students win (one recently took a mystery bounty for $1M) gives him goosebumps [02:56-03:26].
• Teaching Philosophy: He notes the importance of adapting to each student’s level and being able to clearly explain complex concepts [19:02-19:24].

Quote:
"We're not really giving anything back to the community. We’re just taking away. I always wanted to teach… I get goosebumps just like thinking about it." – Chance Kornuth [02:56]

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4. Old School vs. Modern Poker & Use of Solvers

• Solvers and GTO (Game Theory Optimal): Mainstream adoption of solvers changed the game—sometimes making players worse by discouraging original thought [05:00-05:38]. Kornuth still prizes human adaptability/exploitive play:
  “In reality, we’re playing against an individual human at all times… and so we should be adjusting… to exploit that person.” [05:00]
• Physical Reads: Strongest edge comes from live reads—an area he excels at, making him more effective live than online [06:03-06:12].
• Exposure to Tells: Discusses self-awareness: recognizing your own tells allows you to spot them in others [09:44-10:08].

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5. Highlights from Kornuth’s Career

• First WSOP Bracelet: Recounts his most memorable win in the 2010 $5k PLO (Pot-Limit Omaha)—calling it “the most surreal win. Nothing really compares to that” [13:31-14:02].
• Playing Poker Legends: Chance reflects on playing and befriending Phil Ivey (his poker “GOAT”), making a big call against him, and witnessing the long-term greatness of legends like Negreanu and Hellmuth [22:44-23:43].

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6. Poker Psychology & Mental Game

• Handling Tilt: Years of mental game work and coaching have helped Chance reduce tilt, but he acknowledges, “No one can be tiltless, but everyone can tilt less.” (quoting Tommy Angelo [17:23])
• Working with Performance Coaches: Not exclusive to sports; many top players invest in mindset coaching [17:55-18:15].

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7. The Economics and Variance of High Stakes Life

• Variability of Results: Describes the misconception of success: even after cashing for nearly $1M in a $500k buy-in event, multiple re-buys and losses can result in a losing trip overall [15:41-16:25].
• Ups and Downs: Poker is “absolute battle”—variance means even the best can go extended periods without results [16:34].

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8. Cheating, Ethics, and Private Games

• Personal Experiences with Cheating: Chance details being cheated in private games—once by a “nit” who played only premium hands and always seemed to know when to go big. A $250k loss followed this incident before he realized the cheating [39:32-40:26].
• Team Play Collusion: Another scam involved players sharing a bankroll to create an artificial “action” dynamic and exploit outsiders [43:03-43:48].
• Advice: Private games are more susceptible to cheating–tournaments and casinos are generally safer [44:51].

Quote:
“When you’re playing for a lot of money, there’s a big incentive to cheat. People will think of new ways to cheat…and people will figure out how to stop it. It’s a never ending circle.” – Chance Kornuth [41:49]

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9. Controversial Figures and Handling Psychological Games

• Martin Cabral’s Antics: Chance discusses playing against notorious table antagonizer Martin Cabral, who uses psychological warfare as a form of edge—not cheating, but disrupting. WSOP now gives Cabral a shortened shot clock to curb his delay tactics [31:50-34:40].
• Calling Clock: Chance politely warns players before calling time, seeing it as a respectful way to influence pace of play [36:16].

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10. Growth, Evolution, and the Future of Poker

• Rising Skill Levels: The game has evolved—pros and amateurs are both better. “You really do have to stay ahead of the curve. You have to work hard on your game.” [14:39]
• International Styles: Players from different nations bring unique flavors—Americans more passive, Europeans aggressive, Brazilians highly aggressive—"USA just has the best players, by a slight margin." [48:20-49:11]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Teaching:
  “If there’s one thing I want to do, it’s win the WSOP main event…I think I will win it eventually, it’s just…on my list of to-dos.” – Chance Kornuth [06:16]

• On Poker as a Sport:
  “If chess is a sport…so is poker…probably competitive video games, too…It would be considered a sport.” – Chance Kornuth [18:32]

• On Variance:
  “Losing 100k hurts more than winning 100k…you have to be very mentally and emotionally disconnected from the losses.” – Chance Kornuth [27:24]

• On the Luck Factor:
  “I think poker has too much luck for the Olympics…any given one hand could be 99% luck.” – Chance Kornuth [49:45]

• On Adaptability:
  “Being dynamic and making those adjustments in-game is one of my strongest attributes. Physically reading people is definitely one of my best as well.” – Chance Kornuth [05:50]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Rebuilding after Loss & Cheating in Private Games: [00:00], [39:32-44:51]
• WSOP Routine & Decompression: [01:16-02:18]
• Coaching Philosophy & Giving Back: [02:22], [02:56-03:26], [19:02-19:24]
• Solvers, Adapting Play & Live Reads: [05:00-06:12]
• Most Memorable Win: [13:31-14:10]
• Handling Tilt & Mental Coaching: [16:52-17:33], [17:55-18:15]
• Encounters with Notorious Players (Martin Cabral): [31:50-34:40]
• Team Collusion Story: [43:03-43:48]
• International Poker Styles: [48:20-49:11]
• On Momentum, Luck, and Winning Big Events: [50:16-51:19]

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Conclusion & Where to Find Chance

• Future Plans: Shifting focus toward coaching, spending more time with family, and building new businesses.
• Chip Leader Coaching: Offers training programs for all levels, alongside Alex and Kristen Foxen.
• Social: Instagram & X (Twitter): [@ChancesCards] [51:23]

Final Words:
“I think it’s the best place to learn how to be a better poker tournament player, whether you’re a beginner, intermediate, or advanced…” – Chance Kornuth [51:23]

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For listeners seeking real talk about poker’s triumphs, heartbreaks, and mind games, this episode delivers rare candor and invaluable wisdom from a true pro.

Transcript

[Chance Kornuth]

My pattern recognition is one of the skills that I'm pretty good at. And there's this like nit. Nit is like a really tight player. You would randomly play a hand and he was trying to get it to be the other player's idea to get action. So he would do something uncharacteristic, justify it and then put in money. I had ran my roll back up to 250/4 million or something and like lost it all in the game and had to rebuild again. Unfortunately.

[Alex Foxen]

Foreign.

[Interviewer]

Guys, we got chance here during the World Series in Vegas. He's already had a good start and hopefully it continues, right?

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean, come out here every year for six, seven weeks and it's time to shine.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And your family's in China while you're playing out here?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, wife and kid just made it there. They're exploring somewhere in mainland. Not sure, but yeah.

[Interviewer]

How's your Mandarin game?

[Chance Kornuth]

Oh, it's terrible. I speak like 50 words maybe and whenever I say something my wife tells me, I say it wrong. So.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, a lot of people say it's the toughest language to learn.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I've heard that like some of the Sanskrits are like a 5 on the scale, which is the highest and Mandarin is a 4, but I don't know, I think it's impossible.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I'm half Chinese and I can't speak it if it makes you feel better.

[Chance Kornuth]

Makes me feel a lot better.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's tough man. But what's your game plan for this World Series? Anything different from previous World Series?

[Chance Kornuth]

No, I mean the last three summers I've stayed at a friend's house off Strip in Summerlin. It's got a sauna, cold plunge, hot tub, pool. So it's like a pretty dreamy situation. And fortunately I get to stay there again, you know. Thanks, David. And yeah, just do the same thing I do every year.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's important to decompress after playing 14 hours straight, right?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I mean it's, it's grueling and like days where you are card dead, it's a lot harder I think because you're just sitting there and time just like crawls. But when you're in every pot and like battling with everyone, I think time goes a lot faster so it makes sense.

[Interviewer]

How common are those days where your card debt is that a common thing you experience?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yesterday was actually probably the most card dead I've been in a while. Like it was a full 12 hour day and it felt like it was 18, 20 hours.

[Interviewer]

Damn you Only played a couple good hands.

[Chance Kornuth]

No, I mean, I still play more than most people, but for me, my qualifier is much lower than the average poker player. I'm playing a lot more hands, so. In a lot more interesting spots and having to think my way through them. But yesterday it was just like, all right, 730-I- guess. Wonderful.

[Interviewer]

You're going all in.

[Alex Foxen]

You're.

[Interviewer]

You're more focused on coaching these days, right, than playing?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah. My family and I moved to Nashville about two and a half years ago, and I'm working on, you know, a lot of chip leader coaching stuff. And we just launched a. A really cool private inner circle group with myself, Alex Foxen and Kristen Foxen. And so we've been focused a lot on that and doing some other stuff inside of chip leader. And then I'll still travel out here for six weeks a year, and then probably about six weeks a year other than that, traveling. So three quarters of my years focused on family and company.

[Alex Foxen]

Wow.

[Interviewer]

Are you worried about giving out all your secrets? Like, do you feel like that could spread and bite you in the ass down the road?

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean, yes and no. Like, poker is a zero sum, some game. But, like, one of the issues I always have at poker is we're not really giving anything back to the community. We're just, like, taken away. And I always wanted to be a teacher. I had two math teachers in my life who were incredibly influential, one of which encouraged me to drop out of college my senior year and pursue poker. And, you know, I always wanted to teach. I enjoy it. Like, we just had a student win mystery bounty for a million dollars yesterday. Like, that feels good. You know, I get goosebumps just, like, thinking about it.

[Interviewer]

That's awesome.

[Chance Kornuth]

You know, so it allows me to give back to something that's given me so much. Like, I found my wife in poker. She used to deal. You know, I've made a career, I've traveled the world, and I'm enjoying seeing other people succeed at it.

[Interviewer]

Was.

[Chance Kornuth]

It.

[Interviewer]

Was there a lot of gatekeeping when you were up and coming, like, trying to find coaching and mentors and stuff?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I mean, it was much less common than it is now to have, like, coaching sites and stuff like that. But there was a lot of content out there, even from when I started.

[Interviewer]

Okay, that makes sense. Foxen was your first student, which is a crazy first student to have, huh?

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

We used to do a coaching for profit where, like, we would take a percentage of what people cash for.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

And I was looking for one more guy and I was playing with him at the table, and I played with him for, like, 15 minutes, and I was like, man, this guy has what it takes. And asked if you want to chat on break and kind of the rest is history. Mr. Miyagi story. Like, the student has become the master, and now him and I make the vast majority of the content together. That's insane. Yeah, it's fun.

[Interviewer]

He's one of the most fun players to watch.

[Chance Kornuth]

Oh, I couldn't agree more.

[Interviewer]

Like, he makes the game exciting.

[Chance Kornuth]

He does. Like, he just goes to absolute war. You never know what he's gonna do. It's. It's fantastic.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Now, you've seen so many hands. Does anything phase you or surprise you at this point?

[Chance Kornuth]

Not really. I would say, like, in general, I know, like, the options that are on the table. You know, sometimes something would be a low frequency, and you see it happen, but sometimes he finds certain bluffs or value bets that I wouldn't necessarily find different sizings. Right. But it's those, like, subtle intricacies, like, if you're expecting a bet and then they bet a slightly different size than you would expect, it's not super surprising.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

When the solvers became, I guess, mainstream, was that a big adaptation phase for you, or did you kind of adopt it quickly?

[Chance Kornuth]

I always kind of, like, mentally solve, is how I like to think about it. Where the solvers actually made people a lot worse for quite some time, where they don't, it's like an excuse for them to just do what the solver says and not think. You know, in reality, we're playing against an individual human at all times, and no one that we're playing against, maybe 1 out of 10,000 people play exactly like a solver or even close to it. And so we should be adjusting to the best of our ability to exploit that person that we're playing against. And so if you're thinking too much, like, what would the solver do here? And not thinking about, am I playing against? Then you're leaving a lot of meat on the bone.

[Interviewer]

I love that.

[Alex Foxen]

Yes. You.

[Interviewer]

You see, you kind of change your style depending on who you're playing against?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, absolutely. Sizings, buff, frequency, value bet, frequency, stuff like that.

[Interviewer]

Is that your main strength, you think, being able to read people?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I think, like, being dynamic and making those adjustments in game is one of my strongest attributes. And physical reading, physically reading people is definitely one of my best as well.

[Interviewer]

So you're better in person than online?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, definitely. And, like, people always ask me like, what's the difference? And I'm like, well there it's the same game. Live just offers the additional element of information, being able to look at your opponent.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Have you accomplished everything you wanted to in the game of poker?

[Chance Kornuth]

I would say yes. You know, I, I've traveled the world, I won poker tournaments on three continents and damn, life's been pretty darn good to me. I can't complain. And you know, if there's one thing I want to do, it's win the WSOP main event. The, you know, biggest, most coveted tournament ever. And I think I will win it eventually. It's just, you know, on my list of to DOS, I guess. But you know, it's a 10,000 person tournament, so I wouldn't say that it's something that like I need to accomplish in poker to make my career feel complete.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, you made a deep last year and then you got unlucky on that one hand, right?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, that was actually two years ago.

[Interviewer]

Oh, two years.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I, my last two deep runs in it I ran ace king into aces and like once I got 16 than once it was in like.

[Interviewer]

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[Chance Kornuth]

80Th or something.

[Interviewer]

So it makes you wonder how much luck is needed to win the main event these days.

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean a ton. You know, even if you're have a massive skill edge, you still have to beat 10,000 people. You know, if your individual entry is worth 10 and you're 100, you know, and your $10,000 is worth $100,000, you still only win at one in a TH000. And so it's, it's pretty difficult to, to take it down.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, when, when Hellmuth came on, there was a viral clip of him saying how he's not going to play in the main anymore because it's a stamina issue. I'm not sure if you've seen that.

[Chance Kornuth]

Oh yeah, I interviewed him for a podcast of mine. I don't know if we posted it yet.

[Alex Foxen]

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So I guess he's not playing the main anymore.

[Chance Kornuth]

He is.

[Interviewer]

Oh, he is.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah. So he recently did a Twitter poll where he said, I'll. I'll do with whatever the results say. To play or not to play. And someone actually went and created a bot or bots to go and vote the don't, and then called him a liar for not listening. But, like, obviously public wanted Phil to play. I understand what he did. Trying to get the structure adjusted. It's more favorable for the older crowd, and it didn't work. And he's still playing. And that was kind of my perception of the play.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Have you run into that issue yet of energy?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yes and no. I take anywhere between like, one and four days off during the summer. Kind of listen to my body and depending on how that goes. But I work really hard on mental focus, physical fitness, pre wsop to prepare for it.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

Something that's required, in my opinion.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

People don't realize, but that mental capacity, it's. It's tough. Like, I'm a chess player and playing eight hours of chess straight. Like, you're exhausted by the end.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Interviewer]

Even though you're just sitting there.

[Alex Foxen]

Huh.

[Chance Kornuth]

And even, like, there's. That's one of the biggest differences between me and other poker players is, like, a lot of poker players, you'll notice if you're walking around the casino, like, they'll fold their hand, they'll look at their phone, hold their hand, look at their phone. But, like, if you really want to be. To maximize your edge, you actually need to pay attention after you fold and look at your opponents. Gather live tells, information, bed sizing tells, stuff like that. And I think that that's one of the things that separates me from other players, is the desire to try hard and focus at all times.

[Interviewer]

I love that. Did you ever find out if you had a tell on yourself and you had to fix it or adjust it?

[Chance Kornuth]

Absolutely. Self awareness is one of the most important things for picking up tells on others. It's like, wow, I noticed that I was doing this when I was weak. It's like, I wonder if other people do that because most tells are like, subconscious physicalities, and then eventually you become aware of those things. And so if you notice things that you do when you're strong or weak, whether it's unintentional or intentional, once you notice, you can start looking for that in others.

[Interviewer]

Wow, that's so cool. That's the part of the game I like.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah, the.

[Interviewer]

The mind game.

[Chance Kornuth]

It's I mean, early in my career, I remember I, like, was playing some $1600 tournament in Blackhawk, Colorado. It's like 200k for first. And I4bet, shoved the queen 80 against this guy, and he asked me if I would fold if or if I would show if he fold. And I was like, man, I don't want to show this. And thinking to myself, and I'm like, no, I can't do that. And he calls the pocket tens, flops a boat, and I'm out. And so, like, instead of thinking about, like, why did I make such a big punt? Like, this isn't the right hand combo to do this with, I sat there, and when I would think about stuff, like, what could I have done to get him to fold? It's like, oh, I should have said, I'll show you on. You'll know what I have, or, like, something like that. And so a lot of poker players, like, would think about what the right hand to do something with is. And early in my career, I would always think about how could I have gotten him to make the decision I wanted him to.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

And it hurt me in some ways because I was naturally trying to, you know, try too hard, I guess you could say. And instead of waiting for the spots to come to me, I would force it sometimes. But I learned a lot about live tiles, and now I'm a little more harnessed in the area. And, yeah, it's a fun facet of the game.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that's a cool story. So I've heard you're never supposed to respond to questions.

[Alex Foxen]

Right.

[Interviewer]

When you're. When you're in the middle of a.

[Chance Kornuth]

Hand, I think most people should not respond. I do think that if you have a strong perception on a. Or a strong belief on how your opponent will perceive what you say, then you can. Can go for it.

[Interviewer]

I love that.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You're playing chess out here. You're thinking, like, what they're thinking.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean, I think that, like, live tells, or the fake live tells is effectively just like a big rock, paper, scissors match.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

Where it's like, if he thinks I do this, you know, it's.

[Interviewer]

Make yourself look nervous. Right.

[Chance Kornuth]

When you have a good hand or when you're bluffing. Because he knows that I wouldn't actually look this nervous. And, like, so it's like. Like a leveling war.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Who's like, your. Do you have any rivals you consider someone you go back and forth with all the time?

[Chance Kornuth]

I would say lately, probably. Artur, Marcher, Ocean. He just won the 25k. Heads up. I saw that he's bested me a handful of times recently. You know, fantastic player. But there was once where Jeremy Osmus actually stacked me three times in one tournament in one day in like a 3k6 max or something a summer or two ago. Uh, but in general, like, you know, it's just a small sample where something like that happens. Like in the long run, it's pretty unlikely for someone to hold over you for a long time.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

I'm sure at your skill level everyone's about the same. So it's just back and forth, right?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, absolutely. Like there was a while, maybe like a year, year and a half where I just ran so good against Alex Foxen, where I just won every all in. Had Kingsman, he had queens, like just absolutely destroyed him. Evened out a reasonable amount since then, you know, like it's in three or four all ins or, you know, something like that. Even in big spots, like someone's likely to hold.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

Or hold over the other one.

[Interviewer]

That makes sense. That must be interesting playing against someone you coach so intensely.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean, and now I would say that he probably coaches me as much as I coach him. Like, we discuss a lot of stuff together. If I have a question, I ask him. But whenever you have that much knowledge of the opponent's game, it really is just a leveling war of how much you know, you know about each other.

[Interviewer]

What's. What's the most memorable win you've had? Was it a World Series win?

[Chance Kornuth]

Probably my first bracelet. I would say to this day the 5k PLO 2010 was just like remembering that like turn card comes and like it was a coin flip all in on the flop. Turn card comes up 95. And like all my friends in rail were like getting, getting super close. I'm like holding them back and the river is a brick and I went and I just grabbed my bracelet and everyone lifts me up and like There was a ESPN360 camera and like you could go back and like watch it. I don't know where the tape is now, but that was definitely the most surreal win. And nothing really compares to that.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That was 2010, right.

[Alex Foxen]

Wow.

[Interviewer]

So you've been playing in the World Series for a long time.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I think that this might be my 18th or 19th.

[Alex Foxen]

Dang.

[Chance Kornuth]

Because I played a couple events when I was 21. Like, because I turned this month and I played main event satellite A1K to the 10K main event. I got an Aces Days King of spades. He flopped a flush turn, paired the board and it breaked. And so I still remember hands from like way back then and that was 20, 22,007, I guess.

[Alex Foxen]

Damn.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, lots changed this time.

[Chance Kornuth]

19 years.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

The skill, the skill level's probably gone up a lot, I'd imagine.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, absolutely. And that's the interesting thing about poker where like overall I would say that there's a higher ratio of pros to Rex. The wrecks are better, the pros are better. So you really do have to like stay ahead of the curve. You have to work hard on your game.

[Interviewer]

How much are you studying other people's game or are you just mainly analyzing your. I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.

[Chance Kornuth]

Your game, I do watch others as a form of learning, whether it's a training Triton final table or WSOP high roller type of stuff, whether it's reviewing final tables or students hands and stuff like that. Realizing where people are weak and strong. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, one of the best things I do for studying is just like teaching.

[Interviewer]

They say that's the quickest way to learn. Even more like when you teach it, when you verbally speak it.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, absolutely. And it solidifies the pieces of the game that I think are the most important and it kind of reminds me to focus on those.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What's the biggest game you've played in?

[Chance Kornuth]

Was it a Triton from a buy in perspective? Yeah, I played the 500k tournament in the Bahamas like this last year in the December and got to cash it fortunately. But like poker's a funny game where like I catch the 500k for like 900 or a million or something like that and then everyone's congratulating me the whole trip. But they didn't realize that I busted four bullets in the 100k after that, two or three bullets in the 50k and like a bunch of bullets in the 25k and like, had I not swapped with Foxen when he won the 100k, I would have actually had a losing trip. Everyone's sitting there like congratulating me and I'm like, thanks.

[Interviewer]

He barely made anything.

[Chance Kornuth]

It's like I'm down money and then he like wins the next day and I'm like, okay, I'm not funny again. You can congratulate me again.

[Interviewer]

That's poker though, right? Very up and down.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

And that's kind of like one of the interesting things about poker is, like, people don't see how hard it can be sometimes.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

You know, it's like absolute battle and like, you could go many bullets with rebuys, entries, buy ins without cashing and making money. And even if you are one of the better players in the field, like, there's still a lot of variance.

[Interviewer]

Do you still get tilted? Do you still feel like you can't control it sometimes?

[Chance Kornuth]

I wouldn't say can't control it. Like, the amount that I tilt has definitely decreased over the years. Like, I work hard on my mental game.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

I currently have a performance coach. You know, there's yes, things that upset me from time to time, but it's not. It's more about, like, mentally resetting, not letting those emotions control your play at the table, stuff like that. So, I mean, I would say that no one is. Tommy Angelo is like my first mindset coach, and he said that no one can be tiltless, but everyone can tilt less.

[Alex Foxen]

Wow.

[Chance Kornuth]

And I'm.

[Interviewer]

That's deep.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm deep into poker now and studying and, you know, all that jazz. So I would say I tilt less, but it's impossible to be absent of it.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

When I see photos of you at the table or videos, you're always smiling.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah. I'm lucky. I think that I enjoy my job. I like people, I like chatting with others at the table, and I'm pretty good at turning it off and putting on my poker face when it's time to. Time to play a hand.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Performance coach. Wow. Is that a new thing that players are doing, Hiring a mental performance coach?

[Chance Kornuth]

I wouldn't say new. Like, it's been around forever and, you know, whether you're. I don't necessarily consider poker a sport, but it has a lot of similar elements that sports have. And in anything competitive, where you have to play your best, you, A lot of the people at the highest levels do work on the mindset aspect of it.

[Interviewer]

Why don't you consider it a sport? I'm curious.

[Chance Kornuth]

I said, like, more that I'm not sure that it's a sport.

[Alex Foxen]

Okay.

[Chance Kornuth]

Like, I do think it has a lot of similarities, but for me, for some reason, sports are more active. Like, I'm.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I could see that argument. Would you. So you wouldn't consider chess a sport?

[Chance Kornuth]

Oh, slippery question here.

[Interviewer]

They got you in trouble here.

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean, honestly, I'm just, like, not sure. Like, I can see both being sports. Like, you're competing. Right. And so, like, if chess is a sport, then Naturally. So is poker. So is like probably competitive video games and stuff like that.

[Interviewer]

Esports, right?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah. So I guess, like it would be considered a sport.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Is there anything outside of poker you're elite. You would consider yourself elite in like top 1% or did you go all in on poker?

[Chance Kornuth]

Probably teaching.

[Interviewer]

Teaching, Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

I think that, like, when I first started coaching seven, eight years ago, I was really uncomfortable with like group calls and one on ones and stuff like that. But I've come a long way since then. I'm really good at figuring out what level my students on and using the correct vocabulary that they can understand the information that you're passing along.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, well, that makes sense. I've noticed a lot of the top poker players are introverts, so maybe that was part of it.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, maybe I'm like, I think in the ground you use the term extroverted.

[Interviewer]

He's an extrovert. Yeah, both, I guess.

[Alex Foxen]

Right?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, we're like. I do like people to a degree, like for the most part, but it's like draining for me to be around everyone, like at the end of the day, like, I thoroughly enjoy just like chilling in my bed, watching a movie, falling asleep, you know, maybe spending time with my like wife and kid.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

But like, big groups are not necessarily my thing, so it's draining for me to be at the poker table and do that. Smiley. Yeah.

[Alex Foxen]

Oh, yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

Like, I still enjoy it, but there's times where I'm like, okay, I'm ready for this conversation to be over.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, definitely been there before.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So it sounds like you lean more towards introvert then.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I'd say definitely, like have characteristics of each.

[Interviewer]

When you're coaching, is it all one on one or is it group or how does that work?

[Chance Kornuth]

I do both. Yeah, I do some one on ones, I do some group coaching and then we create some digital products.

[Interviewer]

And what have you seen in your top students? What similarities? Because you've probably coached hundreds of people by now. Maybe thousands.

[Alex Foxen]

Hmm.

[Chance Kornuth]

Work ethic is, is certainly one thing that stands out. I would say the ability to think outside the box and to kind of understand the concept of if someone does X, then there's a response to it. You know, if someone is too tight, I need to play more hands. If someone is too loose, I play tighter. That's like a very simple version. And there are some, a ton of intricacies, you know, surrounding that. And like I have a student who just won a tournament in San Diego, one of my one on one students, and the way that they ask questions like the, the students that I think really have a ton of potential or some that I'm not so sure about. Yeah, they just ask questions where you can tell they're thinking about the game, where it's like, yeah, but if they do this, I do this, right? And it's like, yes. You know, it's like, it does simplify it quite a bit.

[Interviewer]

What's, what's the learning curve like? If someone doesn't even know how to play poker, can they become good within five years or what have you seen?

[Chance Kornuth]

I guess historically, uh, yeah, I think they absolutely could. You know, I think that intelligence is a ceiling in poker. You know, I, I genuinely do believe that. But I think that anyone, whether they're smart, not don't have the right characteristics, can become pretty freaking good at poker in, in five years.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Alex Foxen]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, Yeah, I could see that, I guess because I didn't know how to play chess and now I'm top 1% within three years. So I'd imagine poker could be similar.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you immersed yourself in it, right?

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Eight hours a day, full time job, pretty much.

[Chance Kornuth]

Like, I remember when I was like grinding back in the day, I used to dream about poker hands.

[Alex Foxen]

Wow.

[Chance Kornuth]

And I literally, I woke up and I like called my, my best friend, like my founding partner for chip leader coaching, actually. And I was like, hey, let me ask you about this hand I played in my dreams. And he just like started laughing. He's like, all right, what is it? And like, it was just a silly PLO hand, but I used to like, eat dreams, you know, everything. You were locked in, constantly thinking about poker. Yeah. I close my eyes, I'm seeing board textures. And when you immerse yourself in something and you're doing it for 80 hours plus a week, like that's, you know, just how it was for me.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And now you're playing with the guys used to dream about. Must be a full 360 for you, right?

[Chance Kornuth]

For sure.

[Interviewer]

What's it like playing against Ivy?

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean, Ivy has always been my like, goat poker player.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

The one that I admired, the one that I've always wanted to play with. And then a couple summers ago, I made a big call down against him and was right. And like, that was a pretty surreal moment for me. And. But yeah, in general, him and I have become like pretty good friends over the past few years. And he's a great guy, you know, me and some other areas of my life, and I can't Say enough nice things about him.

[Interviewer]

I'm always impressed with the longevity of guys that could do it for 20 years like that.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean, to him and Granu and Hellmuth or. I don't care what some of the young egotistical pros say about them not being good. Like, they are impressive. Like these guys are getting up there in years and they are still competing at the highest levels for the most part. And I think it's incredibly.

[Interviewer]

Do you still, like. Do you feel like you're still getting better even with. With age and getting older?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, absolutely. I don't think I've peaked yet.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I wonder when that peak is for poker players.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, that's a good question.

[Interviewer]

Cuz Ivy's still pretty good. Maybe he peaked already, I'm not sure. But these guys are in their 40s now, right?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, definitely.

[Interviewer]

Interesting.

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean, how. It's like 57. I want to say.

[Interviewer]

What?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah. Could be wrong.

[Interviewer]

He does not act that age. I was just with him at F1. He told me to stop asking poker players if he's the goat. Cause no one says his name. He told me to stop doing that.

[Chance Kornuth]

I don't know. I think they're kind of crazy to think, like it just depends, like, what scale you're measuring on. If you're scaling on bracelets and tournament success. Like, it's pretty hard to not say that he is.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

He's got what, 16, maybe 17? 16 might be right. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

10 more than second place, I believe.

[Chance Kornuth]

Like Nagranu's probably done the most for poker of anyone. You know, I think that Ivy, if you look at like cash games and tournaments combined, would be the goat, you know, And I would expect that people pass them by eventually just like any other goats.

[Alex Foxen]

Right.

[Chance Kornuth]

You know, you're not going to be the greatest forever.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Where do you see poker going? Because I know the streaming stuff's hot right now. Do you see it more going towards that, like with the cash games and the big live streams or.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, to an extent. I. I'm. I'm really interested to see how wsop, like World Series of Poker fields pan out this year. I feel like the economy might be shifting slightly downward and I'm curious if that will show in the size of the fields and stuff like that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I'm curious now too, because the casinos have been struggling out here.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah. A lot.

[Interviewer]

That's usually the first sign of a recession.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So do you keep an eye on.

[Chance Kornuth]

Things like that when, you know, like, I think that to some degree my Income via poker is recession proof.

[Alex Foxen]

Wow.

[Chance Kornuth]

I think that like, yeah, games might be a little bit tougher, but there's still going to be tournaments. Like, I can still go and play things that I'm making money in in the long run.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you want to shift more towards the coaching or, or do you want to do a 50? 50? How do you see that playing out in the future?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I am working on shifting my primary source of income from playing to coaching. You know, I've had three fantastic years the last three years and I haven't really played a ton this year so far, you know, other than wsop. And I will play a lot more in the fall, but I have a kid that's four and a half now and I love being there for her and going to dance recitals and random stuff like that. And you know, I don't want to need to travel and play when I'm in my 50s.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

You know, I do want to start diversifying and starting other businesses and stuff like that.

[Interviewer]

What age are you going to teach her how to play poker?

[Chance Kornuth]

I don't know that I will. I don't, like, I just, I don't know, like, poker's still a very misogynistic sport and I, I think that like, that's something I think about for myself is like, if I were as successful at anything else as I am at poker, I would be considerably more successful than I am today. And I always wondered what my ceiling or path would be like if I had chosen something else. Don't get me wrong, like, life's not just about money, you know, like, I got to travel the world, I met my wife, I've done a lot of incredible things. But from a monetary perspective, I don't know that I want that for my daughter. You know, just being around men all the time.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Because what is it, like 95% dudes, probably. That's pretty nuts.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Plus it's a very up and down lifestyle that you, you need good mental resilience to have to, to make it in poker, especially over decades. I feel like.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, absolutely. And like losing 100k doesn't feel or like hurts more than winning 100k. And so like you have to be very mentally and emotionally disconnected from the losses.

[Alex Foxen]

Right.

[Interviewer]

I'm sure you've seen a lot of people come and go in your time.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, absolutely. People win a bunch of money, go broke.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

How common is that? Like the people you started playing with in your early college years and stuff, or how many of Them are still around, I guess.

[Chance Kornuth]

Doesn't sound like not many. I mean, I think Ben Lamb's still fantastic. Like, he was like my first real poker friend. I started playing with like a couple of other guys that don't really play much anymore to my knowledge. But I met Ben when I was 22 and fantastic poker player. Started a online casino recently called Yeet. And so I know that like he still plays a. A little bit, but not nearly as much as he used to.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Did you ever almost call it quits at any point? Did you almost quit?

[Chance Kornuth]

No, I never did, actually.

[Interviewer]

You never got close to quitting?

[Chance Kornuth]

No.

[Alex Foxen]

Wow. Like I.

[Chance Kornuth]

After Black Friday, which in poker world is when the Department of Justice froze full tail poker stars and whatever the other one was. Ultimate bet.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

And we had to find other ways of playing. Like, most of my money was frozen online. I didn't get it for a long time. I had to rebuild my Bankroll from nearly zero, you know, from like 10 or 20K after having hundreds of thousands. It's all frozen online. And that was pretty hard. And I guess it, I'm sure it entered my mind then at some point.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

But I was architectural engineering in college and I knew I didn't want to do that, so I either had to figure out something else to do or continue with poker.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You were one semester away.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You were right at the finish line for.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

And thank the Lord I didn't finish. Like, I just had no desire to do the options that that provided.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you were a good student, huh?

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean, it was, I was fortunate because in engineering, like my first math teacher in high school kind of pushed me to do engineering instead of business. And it was easy for me. Like, you know, it was all math based and pretty lucky at math or good at math rather. And then. But the, the engineering specialty that I chose just wasn't for me. I don't know if any other ones would be. But I really enjoy business. I really enjoy trying to grow chip leader coaching as well as some other businesses that my friends and I are working on in Nashville. And that optimization is, is something that really attracts me to business a lot more than engineering.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that makes sense. You're good at math, which is important in poker.

[Alex Foxen]

Right.

[Interviewer]

So you pretty much know the percentages on, on where you're at at all times.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

And like, that's kind of the interesting aspect of it. It's because, like, I know what I have, what the board is and what my opponent's range is. The collection of Hands that they could possibly be holding and then what my equity is vers that range, and that's kind of how you make decisions.

[Interviewer]

Wow, that's impressive. So you're doing a lot of calculating.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah. And it's like kind of subconscious now, keeping track of the size of the pot, seeing what they're betting, knowing the odds I'm getting is, you know, it's kind of to reference Matt Damon and rounders, it's like breathing for me. You know, it's like that part is not where I spend my mental ram. It's just like almost autonomous. And then my mental ram is trying to gather tells. Think about their turn, betting frequencies, the stage of the tournament I'm in, stuff like that.

[Interviewer]

I love it. Are you part of the camp that wants masks banned at the table?

[Chance Kornuth]

I don't really give a shit.

[Interviewer]

You don't think it affects the. The tells or whatever?

[Chance Kornuth]

No, not really. I mean, it does affect the tells in some way if people want to cover up. But like, wearing a mask for 12 hours a day, every day, like, can't be good for your house. So take the edge.

[Interviewer]

No, it definitely isn't.

[Chance Kornuth]

Enjoy it. Wear the mask.

[Interviewer]

What about sunglasses? You don't care about those?

[Chance Kornuth]

No, I mean, sunglasses have pros and cons. The pros of wearing sunglasses are your opponents can't see where you're looking. You kind of feel a little more invincible.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

More confident. The cons are you can't give off fake towels, you can't do stuff with your eyes. And try to check your opponents into doing what you want.

[Alex Foxen]

Right.

[Chance Kornuth]

And it's also like wearing dark sunglasses at the table for hours on end is actually terrible for your eyes. There are some, like, other brands of things that are, like, lighter and mirrored that won't hurt your eyes long term. If you are going to wear sunglasses at the table, definitely get those instead.

[Interviewer]

There's one player I want to ask you about. He's coming on next week. A very controversial player, Martin Cabral.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah. Nice.

[Interviewer]

What's it like playing against him? Because I know he gets under a lot of people's skin.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I mean, he used to get under my skin a ton. And honestly, when I thought he was cheap cheating at the final table of the 250k, he got the best of me because he got under my skin so much. But then once I realized, and this is my perception of the situation, I'm fairly certain that he was, again, just my opinion, trying to get people to cheat, to gain an edge. Right. Like, if you think I'm cheating and marking the cards. You're going to be afraid to bluff me. Well, if I know you're afraid to bluff me, then I can basically just fold rivers or like.

[Alex Foxen]

Right.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, that can three bet bluff, and you're never going to four bet bluff, like, stuff like that. And I think that it's a very slimy, shady way to try to get an edge.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

And it shouldn't be allowed, you know, And I think his antics have changed a lot, and when he notices that he's getting under people's skin, he takes it further and further and further. Now, I definitely have been getting the better of him in that mental exchange in the last couple of years since then, and it's. It's quite fun.

[Interviewer]

He was the first person I've seen really rage, bait people on purpose like that in poker.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, absolutely. And he's fantastic at it, you know, and, like, that's not a. A strength or an area of the game I want to excel at, you know, but to each his own. I don't know. Yeah. I don't want to talk bad about him. Just teach his own.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Very interesting guy.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, fascinated by someone like that.

[Chance Kornuth]

He's very polarizing.

[Interviewer]

Very. Yeah, I noticed a lot of pros do not like him.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

And I don't mind him now at all, now that I know he's not, like, cheating and, like, I'm just going to get under his skin instead of letting him get under mine and brings me, actually joy, probably because he got under my skin so bad in the past, but now that the shoes on the other foot, it feels pretty good.

[Interviewer]

I had Dan Smith on. He said he got under his skin, too.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

He's just good at that.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean, I think Dan might have been the only player at the table at that 250k that called him out. Right. Took it worse than me. Oh, no. He, like. Dan freaked out, you know, Like, I was pretty upset, too. But Dan took it to the next level, and understandably. So, like, like, he and I at the time thought we were being cheated in a $250,000 event.

[Alex Foxen]

Did they?

[Interviewer]

Any rule changes come from that? Because he was standing up and, like, staring at the cards. Right. That was the whole ordeal.

[Chance Kornuth]

I don't think a rule change. But, like, this year at the wsop, they are giving him, like, shortened clocks. Like, when everyone's aware of your antics and the amount of time that you effectively steal from your opponents by taking as long as he does, they're giving him, like, 10 seconds to act on his hands and stuff like that. And like, yeah, it's, it's honestly a good way of doing it. Like, think of it like, the optimal form of poker would be to have a chess clock where if I act immediately every decision and then I need eight minutes to think like, well, I kind of earned it. I haven't used any of my time yet.

[Alex Foxen]

Right, right.

[Chance Kornuth]

But when he uses 45, 60, 60, 75 seconds, every single decision, you're stealing the, the time from the rest of us. And that's what I think is upsetting. And the best solution is to give him 10 seconds every time. It's like, okay, you still enough time. It's not fair anymore. Everyone wants to play hands.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

And like, game, you know, poker is obviously a game of gathering information. And if, if you're going to use an exorbitant amount of time to gather information, it's not fair to your opponents who want to see hands 100%.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That was an interesting strategy to me because he was purposely waiting to piss people off.

[Alex Foxen]

Right.

[Chance Kornuth]

I think it's partially to piss people off. I think it's partially to get information. Like, say it's before the flop, everyone just has two cards and people are waiting and thinking about what to do. And he has a close spot where he's not sure if he wants to put in chips or not. And then he sits there for a minute and then the people behind him are fed up. They look at their hands, they start telegraphing whether they're going to fold or not.

[Alex Foxen]

Right.

[Chance Kornuth]

You know, he gains information, but like, is it fair to take that minute to do so? No, it's not. And like, you'll notice the high rollers have a 30 second shot clock. And this is kind of where it's annoying because he'll use the whole 30 seconds and there's not really anything you can do about it.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

But in a tournament without a shot clock, he's just going to take like 60 or 90 seconds. And that's when the tournament director has made good decisions to show certain amount of time he can have.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Because a lot of the players are afraid to talk call clock because they don't want to look weak.

[Alex Foxen]

Right?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I think they, like, that could be part of it. But I would say people are definitely not afraid to call clock on them anymore.

[Interviewer]

Have you ever called clock on someone?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, absolutely not a ton. And I do it in a much more. What I think is play way where like, hey, I'm going to call the Clock on you in 30 seconds.

[Interviewer]

Oh, so you'll give them a heads up.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah. Because you used to call the clock take a floor man a little while to get there. Get a minute countdown. Well, now the countdown's 30 seconds. And when someone calls clock on you and you're like in the middle of your, like, thought process, it can be very, like, alarming. You're like, oh, like. And I don't want it to be like a surprise to someone. Be like, hey, it's a big spot. I know, like, I'm gonna call clock in a minute.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

And I think it's like a really polite way to do it.

[Interviewer]

What's the most time you've taken on a decision? What's the deepest you've been in the tank before?

[Chance Kornuth]

It's hard to say because when you're the one thinking time kind of melts away, you don't realize how long you've taken. I used to smoke pot when I played. And so, like, while you played, I mean, on breaks and stuff.

[Interviewer]

Oh, I thought you meant at the table.

[Chance Kornuth]

No, no, no, never. I mean, in private games, maybe.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

But yeah, not at like a poker tournament table. And probably then, like, way too long. Yeah, I'm really not sure. I've probably made some 10 minute tanks.

[Alex Foxen]

Damn.

[Chance Kornuth]

Like, maybe, you know, in 20 years, maybe a couple 10 minute tanks, like in general, not. Not super long.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

Wow.

[Interviewer]

Did you play better when you were high?

[Chance Kornuth]

No, absolutely not. I think it's like this myth that, like, smokers, like, tell themselves they, like, play better. They're like, oh, I'm more patient. It's like, yeah, addicts can adjust. Addicts can justify anything, you know, and it's like when I was drinking and partying and stuff like that, like, I could justify my actions as well. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I remember there was one guy in the main event two years ago, he had a mushroom shirt on and he made it really far and people were like, is he microdosing? Like, does that give him an edge on mushrooms?

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean, I know I don't want to blow the person.

[Interviewer]

You don't have to call them out, but yeah, yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

I know like someone who plays high rollers, an older recreational player who's like a serious hobbyist. And they microdose and they have for a couple years now. And I think it's every other day part of their, like, regimen. I know other people who macro dose. I know a handful of people that do micro dose. I've never tried at the poker table. I could see life becoming More vivid and being able to get tells being more interesting. Like that's kind of one of the reasons I've wanted to try it, but I haven't.

[Interviewer]

I'd be curious.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Cuz I've microdosed and you're, you're definitely more focused. It's like a natural lateral people call it.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And I feel like you, you pick up on energies better. I don't know if you're spiritual at all, but I feel like you could just pick up on stuff.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I feel like some of that stuff is out there. I have a student who actually does talk about that type of stuff, like auras and like. Oh yeah, and stuff like that. And I haven't gotten that deep into it or don't think that I'm deeply aware of people's energies as well as others. You know, I've been thinking and talking about live tales so long that I'm able to articulate the little things that someone does that makes them weak or strong. And you know, other people are like, well, I just looked at him, I could tell he was weak. And I'm like, it's not very helpful to me. Like, I wish you could at least share the thought process a little bit better. But you know, it's something that I've been able to articulate.

[Interviewer]

You're more logical with it, right?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I mean, it's something I'm very experienced at.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Have you ever caught a cheater? Been cheated against?

[Chance Kornuth]

I have been cheated.

[Interviewer]

You know, home game or what was that?

[Chance Kornuth]

Uh, yeah, big private home game. And my pattern recognition is one of the skills that I'm pretty good at. And there's this like nit. Nit is like a really tight player and he would randomly play a hand, put in a ton of money before the flop, but he would always be like, do you want action? And he was trying to get it to be the other player's idea to get action. So he would do something uncharacteristic, justify it and put in money and just always make the best hand. And it's like we kind of figured it. Like I was pretty confident actually after session one, got convinced by my friends who were in the game that the game was on the up and up and there's no nothing to worry about. We found out a few sessions later, after we all lost piles, that unfortunately I was right.

[Interviewer]

Damn. You confronted him in person or like, how did that go down?

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean, it was actually after Black Friday and I had ran my roll back up to maybe like 250/4 million or something. And like lost it all in the game and had to rebuild again. Fortunately it went well for like six months. But I mean, it was unfortunate. Yeah, I mean I paid and lost and that was it.

[Interviewer]

He didn't pay you back ever?

[Chance Kornuth]

Oh, God.

[Alex Foxen]

No.

[Chance Kornuth]

Cheater pays you back. No, no, that's not.

[Interviewer]

Well, I know like poker players care about their reputations. Like that guy will never be able to play again, right?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I've never played tournaments with this person. It was just like a big private cash game that we were invited to and.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, the dealer was in on it then, right?

[Chance Kornuth]

Not necessarily. Like, it could just be a certain deck that relays the information to their phone that tells them which hand is the winner.

[Alex Foxen]

Damn.

[Chance Kornuth]

It could be one of the new common ones is like with a phone where there's like a little camera that like looks at the cards as they come out.

[Alex Foxen]

Wow.

[Chance Kornuth]

Points it at the dealer and like sees every card and like they have someone else like relaying the information about who has what. I mean, there's a myriad of different ways to cheat, you know, like, I really like how the European poker tour like kind of deals where's my hands on this thing? Face down. Like a blackjack dealer.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

And so they never get like lifted up and potentially exposed to a small camera like that.

[Interviewer]

Interesting.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah. So like, you know, cheat. When you're playing for a lot of money, there's a big incentive to cheat. And over time people will think of new ways to cheat. People will figure out how to stop it.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

And it's just kind of like a never ending circle. So I would say it happens somewhat rarely, even less so. Like very, very rarely in casinos. But yeah, whenever you're playing like big private games, you definitely have to be wary.

[Interviewer]

Do you stray away from those for that reason?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I used to play them quite a bit. I got cheated actually in this one in Tennessee not too long ago. This is a kind of a good story where it's like, hey, me and this group, we play like. I'm like, who is it? He's like, oh, we played on a stream recently. So he sends me a link to the stream. I'm like, oh, these guys seem like good action. I go to the game, I drive like four hours and I play and the game seems like insane. Great action and like they're just like battling, going to war, calling three bets with all kinds of hands. And I lost like 25k. Didn't really think twice. And then game was over, paid, whatever. Then A little bit later, Foxen played on stream with this, like, same group of guys.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

And the way they'd play against each other versus the way they'd play against you was just wildly different. And I figured out that they were sharing a bankroll. So, like, if you and I are on a team, it didn't matter if I bluffed it off with seven deuce against you and looked like an idiot or vice versa.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Chance Kornuth]

And in reality, it was beneficial because we're sharing money and they. The image gets kind of crazy and it's like, oh, this guy's a wild man. And then I play a pot. Like the random, like, other person would play a pot with them, but then they play like, very good poker. And so you look insane because of this image creation with each other. And then you're actually a good poker player. It's incredibly deceptive.

[Alex Foxen]

Wow.

[Chance Kornuth]

And so that was like, one of the ones that I've, you know, gotten got by.

[Interviewer]

That's a smart one. That's really clever, actually.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I would have never guessed that.

[Chance Kornuth]

I don't know. You can prove it either.

[Interviewer]

How did you find out?

[Chance Kornuth]

I just am confident, like, that that was the case.

[Alex Foxen]

Oh, okay. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Interesting.

[Chance Kornuth]

Can't even prove it.

[Interviewer]

So Foxen lost a ton of money too.

[Chance Kornuth]

I think he lost small, fortunately.

[Alex Foxen]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

But for him to lose to those guys that don't even aren't.

[Chance Kornuth]

Well, that was. The thing is, like, I noticed, like, in hindsight, like, when you're playing the game at like one in the morning, it's hard to realize it, but in hindsight, they used like, really good sizes, played like the right ranges, folded to three bets when I did it, but not when each other did it. Right. So, like, when I'm playing a pot for step, I'm thinking they just like call a three bet, call a re raise with like whatever hand that they opened with, because that's what they do against their friends. But then they actually have a completely different range when I'm the one that three bet them. And so it was a very deceptive way of playing. Very creative.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah. Wow.

[Interviewer]

Got to give it to them for at least coming up with that, huh?

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

Private games, you just gotta. Gotta be careful.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

Better to just play tournaments or casino games.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, Tournaments are your bread and butter.

[Alex Foxen]

Right.

[Interviewer]

That's your main strength.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I enjoy them. Like, I think that they're significantly more dynamic. You know, the stacks change so much more in a cash game. It's like everyone's super deep stacked. I don't think there's that much creativity in play. When stacks are a lot more shallow, it's a lot more intricacies, more dynamics that you need to uncover as you go. So I just find it more interesting.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You ever think about vlogging, like, Brad Owen and those content creators?

[Chance Kornuth]

Kind of. And I do put out some, like, content on Instagram and stuff, but as far as, like, vlogging, it's a little bit difficult for me, you know, like, those are the type of players who fold their hand and then they're on their phone creating content. And for me, I think it would take too much away from the type of poker I'm trying to play.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I guess maybe some commentary after the game, like, you're not doing anything live.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I think that that would be the best way for me to. To do something.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I like how Brad. I guess Brad is on his phone a lot, though.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

He has to film every hand. You probably see a lot of that these days, people coming up with their phones and.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I think they were more stringent on the people who could get, like, licenses and stuff. Like rampage.

[Interviewer]

The casinos.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

The World Series. There was that controversial thing with the solvers. Was that last year in the main event?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, it was.

[Interviewer]

What did they do about that?

[Chance Kornuth]

They outlawed it.

[Alex Foxen]

Okay. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

No solvers this year. Yeah, that was. What do you think of that debacle?

[Chance Kornuth]

I think that it was, like, really peculiar because it was very clear that what they were doing was against the rules.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

And there was the floor's responsibility to say something. The floor didn't say anything. So I guess just continue. You know, it's. They were doing something to gain an edge, to study, whatever, while playing. And if the floor didn't say anything, I guess that it's completely fine. Like, I think that it was the floor's responsibility to be the police in that situation.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That was an interesting one. I mean, they definitely noticed it.

[Alex Foxen]

Right?

[Interviewer]

They were right in front.

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean, couldn't have not.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

And that's like the biggest cash out of the whole tournament. $10 million.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

Crazy.

[Interviewer]

You would have been pissed if you were that. I got. I got second.

[Alex Foxen]

Right.

[Chance Kornuth]

See, that's like kind of the weird spot, because a recreational player doesn't realize that they can just, like, go to the floor, man, and be like, that's not allowed.

[Interviewer]

Oh, so you would have called it out.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah. So, like, there's so many things that, like, just like a weird example is, say you're playing a table from day one. And one player wins, like, all the chips and then gets moved. So then your table's left with, like, very few hundred and 500 chips to be able to play the binds. It slows down the game. You're making change every single hand. And I would just ask the floor be like, hey, we need a hundreds and five hundreds on this table. And they'll bring over chips, and you give them change, and then it speeds up the game significantly.

[Alex Foxen]

Oh, wow.

[Chance Kornuth]

But I'd done that a couple times at last year's World Series, and the players are like, wow, I had no idea we could do that. And so, like, just knowing what your powers are as a player and being able to ask the floor, knowing that when someone calls the clock on you, like, really fast, you can, like, get upset and get flustered, or you can be like, oh, sir, I have a. I haven't had a reasonable amount of time yet, you know, so, like, just knowing what the rules are is. Is pretty important.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that's a veteran move. Do you notice the style of play differs when you go to other countries?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, definitely. I would say Americans overall are, like, more passive and weak. Same with France, I guess. But most of Europe is, like, much more aggressive. Asia, a little bit more spazzy. Or they're, like, unpredictable. Moody, almost. Yeah, unpredictable. Brazilians, quite aggressive. Super high check race.

[Alex Foxen]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

If there was a Poker World cup, you took the best players from each country, where would America rank in that?

[Chance Kornuth]

I think number one.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah. I mean, there's some, like, fantastic. Like, any country, like, it is IA in the country I A. So Romania, Romania, Russia. Like, all of the I IA countries are, like, quite good, But I think overall, USA just has the best players, like, by a slight margin.

[Interviewer]

I'd love to see that. Someone should make that happen.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, that would be cool.

[Interviewer]

That'd be a Poker World Cup.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Or they should add it to the Olympics or something. That'd be sick.

[Chance Kornuth]

That'd be sweet.

[Interviewer]

Poker is getting a ton of views.

[Chance Kornuth]

I mean, if break dancing's in there.

[Interviewer]

Then is it actually in there?

[Chance Kornuth]

Break dancing was last year. Yeah. What? There was that Australian dance teacher or something that did something terrible, and it was like, memes forever. You had to have seen the.

[Interviewer]

I must have.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Well, there's so many random sports in there now.

[Chance Kornuth]

I know.

[Interviewer]

I can't keep track. I always watch the curling one. That one interested me.

[Chance Kornuth]

Curling's, like, my favorite. I don't know why.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

But I think poker has too much luck for the Olympics.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Chance Kornuth]

Well, any given one hand could be 99% luck, you know, over a lifetime or like, over a year or two years, whatever. Like, the luck diminishes way down. But, like, I don't think any other sports have the luck factor that poker has.

[Interviewer]

I think.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, even in golf, it can hit a tree and end up at the fairway or on the green, but it's like, such a smaller percentage of the game.

[Interviewer]

That's a very good point. Most actual sports don't have high luck percentages. I feel like maybe the luck would be like if your star player got injured or something.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you lose, but like the Celtics.

[Chance Kornuth]

But like, there's zero luck in chess. Right.

[Interviewer]

It's all skill.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I guess the only luck would be who goes first. White has a slight edge.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, of course.

[Interviewer]

But, like, no, it's mainly skill. If you lose in chess, it's your fault.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Which is crazy.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

In poker, if you lose, you could play amazing.

[Alex Foxen]

Right.

[Interviewer]

I'm sure that happens to you all the time.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And that must be frustrating.

[Chance Kornuth]

I feel like the better I play, the better I run. Just be like confirmation bias.

[Alex Foxen]

But.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Is there a lot of momentum in poker?

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah, I. I do think so, but I think the momentum is derived from making the little decisions that save you a few chips here and there that add up over time, and then you're still in the tournament because of it. And so it's just like playing better.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Chance Kornuth]

You know, is the momentum.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Because there's crazy stories in poker where they'll be down to the last big blind and they'll win the tournament.

[Chance Kornuth]

Yeah. And if you had made a mistake earlier and lost that big blind anyway, then you would have never had that opportunity. That's crazy. I do think that's where the momentum is. Thrive from hell.

[Alex Foxen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Old chance. Where could people learn from you and keep up with you?

[Chance Kornuth]

Check out Chip Leader. Coaching myself. Alex Foxen and Kristen Foxen do all of the content on there. We have a variety of offerings from low ticket to high ticket. I think it's the best place to learn how to be a better poker tournament player, whether you're a beginner or immediate or advanced. If you want to follow my poker journey, check out Instagram and X at Chances Cards.

[Interviewer]

I love it. I hope you get another bracelet this year, man. I'll be watching.

[Alex Foxen]

Have a good one.

[Interviewer]

Check them out, guys. See you next time.