Christian Conservative Admits He Regrets Voting For Trump Live On Air... | DSH #1979

Summary

Digital Social Hour - Episode Summary

Episode Title: Christian Conservative Admits He Regrets Voting For Trump Live On Air... | DSH #1979
Date: May 25, 2026
Host: Sean Kelly
Guests: Brian Shapiro, Jackson, Kai
Main Theme:
A fiery, multi-faceted debate on U.S. immigration policy—especially mass deportation—rule of law, moral philosophy, and broader questions of justice and privilege. The episode also explores how personal experience and political leadership shape opinions, and features Brian Shapiro’s candid admission of regret over voting Trump as a Christian conservative.

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Episode Overview

This episode features a vigorous two-on-one debate where Brian Shapiro, a progressive commentator, challenges Jackson and Kai—both self-described conservatives with complex views on Trump-era immigration policy and law enforcement. The conversation quickly moves beyond policy into probing discussions about morality, empathy, Christian values, and the obligations of government, ultimately culminating in a candid moment where Kai reconsiders his previous support for Trump.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Politics and Morality of Deportation

• Ground Rules for Debate: The guests agree on engaging respectfully, emphasizing point-by-point responses (01:00).

• Deportation Criteria:

  • Brian distinguishes between violent and non-violent undocumented offenders—expressing support for deporting violent felons, but not non-violent individuals, especially those with deep roots and family in the U.S. (02:10–05:00).
  • Jackson and Kai argue that principle, not individual circumstance, must guide the law—asserting that any illegal entry, not just violent offenses, justifies deportation for the sake of justice and deterrence (06:24, 09:31, 19:13).

• Case-By-Case vs. Blanket Approach:

  • Brian pushes for a humane, individualized review with meaningful pathways to citizenship, citing economic and social contributions from undocumented immigrants (05:00, 43:00).
  • Jackson repeatedly asks whether Brian can name any case—besides violent crime—where deportation is justified (08:51, 42:56). Brian consistently hesitates, emphasizing empathy and American privilege.

2. The Rule of Law and Its Purpose

• Law, Justice, and Empathy:

  • Kai adopts a deontological (duty-based) view: the law should serve citizens and be impartially enforced, regardless of circumstance (37:23, 44:53, 51:17, 76:14).
  • Brian argues that while the law is necessary, it must be applied with empathy, considering personal hardship and the sometimes arbitrary/unfair nature of the legal immigration process (39:10, 55:50, 69:06).

• Analogy and Counter-Examples:

  • The debate is peppered with analogies (e.g., the landlord/tenant for overstaying, theft for survival, murder for self-defense, etc.) to illustrate contradictions and the limits of rule-based morality (27:30, 67:01, 68:30, 96:24).

• Privilege and Perspective:

  • Brian repeatedly highlights the luck and privilege of being born in the U.S. and how without direct experience of hardship, harsh legalism betrays empathy (10:19, 69:25, 95:33).

3. Codification and Pathways to Citizenship

• On “Codification” (Legalization of Current Illegals):

  • Kai and Jackson define three immigration policy choices: do nothing, deport, or codify. They argue that “codifying” or granting citizenship to those who broke the law rewards the wrong behavior and is, by definition, immoral and unjust (51:44, 59:22).
  • Brian acknowledges the unfairness for those waiting legally, but insists that current legal pathways are impractically long and expensive, making illegal entry a rational choice for many (60:35, 61:45).

• Willingness to Compromise:

  • In a pivotal moment, Brian concedes he could support stricter deportation if legal immigration were easier and more fair—showing openness to reform if the system were fundamentally changed (60:35–61:45).

4. The Trump Factor & Moral Judgments

• Personal Transformation and Regret Over Trump:

  • Highlight moment: Kai states he’s undergone “a great transformation” since the 2024 election and now would “either not vote or probably vote for Kamala Harris.” (00:24, 105:41)
  • Brian presses both guests on how Christian ethics align with voting for Trump, given his record—eliciting candid admissions of moral discomfort from the conservatives present (28:49–29:53, 105:32).

• Debate over Consistency and Double Standards:

  • The discussion alternates between personal misdeeds (e.g., Trump’s legal issues and sexual impropriety), policy hypocrisy (e.g., white South Africans’ asylum), and partisan responses to law-breaking, with all participants accusing each other, and their parties, of inconsistency (45:51, 77:20, 120:00).

5. Broadening Out: Morality, Law, and the Scope of Judgment

• Why Apply Laws at All?:

  • The group debates whether hardship justifies law-breaking, both in immigration and in moral hypotheticals (theft, murder, etc.). Kai holds that "the ends do not justify the means" (72:03), while Brian insists empathy is crucial and personal background alters the moral lens (69:54, 101:21).

• Limits of Legislation on Morality:

  • Closing sections turn to discussions of pornography and drugs as analogs for immigration policy—probing what society should and shouldn’t legislate, and the moral basis for limiting vices (109:02–115:41).

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Notable Quotes & Key Segments

Opening Exchange: Motives Behind MAGA (00:00)

• Brian Shapiro: “It was never about make America great again. It was make America white again.”

On Deportation Policy (02:11–05:00)

• Brian Shapiro: “Violent criminals, yes. Nonviolent criminals… there has to be a way of doing it that is different than the way the Trump administration is doing it.”
• Jackson: “Isn’t deportation the perfect and moral response to a crime which concerns illegally entering a place?” (07:24)

Moral Shift and Trump Regret (00:24, 105:41)

• Kai: “I have actually undergone a great transformation in my ideology since the 2024 election… Right now, I would either not vote or probably vote for Kamala Harris.” (00:24, 105:54)

Privilege and Perspective (10:19, 69:25, 95:33)

• Brian Shapiro: “We were born in the United States of America … We both happen to be white, and we're very lucky … These are people that are not as privileged as us.”

Justice and Moral Absolutes (72:03, 76:14)

• Kai: “I’m a deontologist… The outcome is irrelevant to the goodness of the action. We have a duty to do things a certain way.”

On Inconsistency/Hypocrisy (77:20, 120:23)

• Brian Shapiro: “If you want consistency … maybe the leader of your party … shouldn’t be there.”
• Jackson: “If you base your entire political framework off a president rather than off policies, it becomes super difficult to talk about issues because issues transcend presidencies.” (124:48)

Closing Moments on the Point of Law and Empathy (126:06)

• Brian Shapiro: “You said you want good people to live good lives. I think good people can be defined as not just American citizens… If you deport every single person in this country that’s undocumented, you’re making their lives far worse… That doesn’t only include American citizens.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – Brian’s provocative “make America white again” claim; episode kickoff
• 02:11–05:00 – Nuanced breakdown of deportation policy and process
• 08:51–09:31 – Debate on asylum seekers and right to claim asylum in the US
• 27:30 – Landlord/rent analogy for “overstaying” immigrants
• 45:51 – Accusation that Trump’s immigration actions are “attacks on brown people”
• 60:35–61:45 – Brian’s conditional willingness to support stricter deportation if citizenship were easier to obtain
• 69:25–69:54 – Empathy, privilege, and understanding the immigrant perspective
• 72:03 – “Ends justify the means” philosophy and its rebuttal
• 77:20 – Consistency, hypocrisy, and student loan comparisons
• 96:24–97:43 – Hypotheticals on justice, crime, and moral boundaries
• 105:41–105:54 – Kai admits he now regrets past support for Trump as a Christian conservative
• 109:02–115:41 – Parallels between vice legislation and immigration control
• 124:48–126:06 – Closing arguments; law, empathy, and societal priorities

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Memorable Moments

• Kai’s public shift away from Trump (00:24, 105:41), marking a dramatic contrast to the episode’s title and a moment of rare candor among conservative guests.
• Philosophy Clash: The extended series of analogies—shoplifting, murder, landlord/tenant, even food and pornography—used (sometimes contentiously) by all to probe and test claims about justice and empathy.
• Brian pressing on privilege: His repeated reminders about privilege and the limitations of legalistic perspectives among the young conservative guests.
• Persistent hypotheticals: Jackson and Kai’s often Socratic attempts to pin Brian down on “yes/no” answers regarding deporting non-violent immigrants, and Brian’s discomfort with abstract hypotheticals, favoring lived experience.
• Role of empathy: The heated exchange about judging others’ actions without living in their circumstances (69:25–69:54, 95:33–96:08).
• Meta-debate about what truly matters: Brian remarks that there are “far more serious and prevalent topics…than undocumented immigrants,” wanting the show to focus on current political crises.

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Tone & Style

The episode is lively, provocative, and often confrontational but makes space for genuine moments of empathy, learning, and even regret. The language is direct, passionate, and at times raw—true to the show’s “unfiltered” promise, yet with notable efforts by all guests to moderate each other and stay on topic.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers an extensive, honest, and challenging debate on one of America’s most contentious social issues. Listeners will walk away with a deep sense of the complexities underlying immigration, the tension between law and empathy, and the difficulty in bridging moral, philosophical, and lived-experience divides—capped by a rare, on-the-record transformation of a Christian conservative’s stance on Trump.

Transcript

[Brian Shapiro]

It was never about make America great again. It was make America white again.

[Jackson]

I think that to the extent that we already have a legal justification for removing illegal immigrants, every single crime that they could ever commit is automatically one that we could avoid by simply enforcing the first law that they break, then the name of Trump in the Epstein files. But what you did is lied with statistics.

[Brian Shapiro]

Didn't lie. I made a statement that said something

[Jackson]

that is literally true. So there is a reality.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's funny. How can you call yourself a Christian and vote for this?

[Kai]

Brian? I can say I have actually undergone a great transformation in my ideology since the 2024 election.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay.

[Kai]

the time, based off of what I knew, felt very, very confident that Donald Trump would be the correct. Right now.

[Brian Shapiro]

Who would you vote for? Kamala Harris or Donald Trump?

[Kai]

I would either not vote or probably vote for Kamala Harris. Okay, guys, we're live.

[Brian Shapiro]

We're gonna do a two on one debate here today. First time on the channel doing a two on one.

[Kai]

We got Brian Shapiro back on and got some newcomers today, Jackson and Kai.

[Jackson]

Thanks for joining us, fellas.

[Brian Shapiro]

Debate will be immigration.

[Kai]

If you guys feel like it gets

[Brian Shapiro]

out of hand at any point, just raise your hand.

[Kai]

I'll step in or say appeal to moderator. Otherwise, let's get it going, man.

[Brian Shapiro]

Immigration. Who wants to start off?

[Jackson]

I'll start. Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

By the way, I don't think this is going to get out of hand. I don't think these are lunatics like some of the people that you've hooked up with me debating, just for the record, I don't. I think this is going to go fine.

[Jackson]

Let's do it.

[Brian Shapiro]

I just go ahead.

[Jackson]

Okay.

[Kai]

Makes my job easier.

[Jackson]

Okay. Sounds good.

[Kai]

Yeah.

[Jackson]

I'm a pretty nice guy. I'll say. I'm so nice that in order to create a thumbnail where I look angry, you had to use generative Al. So you know, it's a good. Ed says something good to me at least. Yeah. I think the way we'll split this up just so the audience understands as well, because it's a two on one situation, we don't want you to feel bombarded. We don't want it to be that one of us can tackle some fact or look it up while the other is debating. So we'll kind of address it point by point.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay.

[Jackson]

I think one of the major issues that presents itself, I want to give you some time to frame. I'm very interested in because I'm not sure what your position is where you stand on deportation. I'M sure we differ. We both disagree with Trump to some extent. My disagreement is that I don't think he's doing enough. Your disagreement, I'm sure, is that he's doing too much or it's being done wrong or maybe it shouldn't happen at all. Where do you stand on the issue of deportation?

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, first of all, in basic sense, I want violent criminals out of the country, and I think most of America agrees on that.

[Jackson]

Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

But I want it done the right way. What is the wrong way? And yes, you're right. I think he's going about it the wrong way. First of all, in our Constitution, it says any person has the right to due process. It doesn't say any citizen. When you're deporting people that have lived in this country for decades and sending them to El Salvador prisons, most of those people nonviolent criminals, I have a serious problem with that. If not for Donald Trump, Renee Goode and Alex Preddy would still be alive today. What took place in Minneapolis is a joke. It's sick. It's sad. He. He's taking away our First Amendment rights, our Third Amendment rights, and our Fourth Amendment rights. You can't be going up to people and asking them for paperwork with no reasonable or articulable suspicion that they've committed a crime.

[Jackson]

So then to kind of hone in on your position, all felons we should deport who are undocumented immigrants, I think

[Brian Shapiro]

I would probably be comfortable with that. I think if you're a felon, proven obviously right, and you're undocumented, yes, I don't have a problem with that. But that's not what Donald Trump is doing. There's a lot of nonviolent criminals in this country, some, like I said, who have been, you know, sent to El Salvador prisons. We have citizens that are being detained, American citizens. I think the way he's gone about this is a joke and despicable. I want secure borders.

[Jackson]

Okay, sounds good. And, yeah, I understand there's, you know, certainly these kind of branches, the ice shootings. I'm really interested in figuring out kind of what your policy solution would be. Are you in favor of deporting unlawful entries or undocumented immigrants? Do you agree with anybody who is not a felon being deported, who has entered the country illegally?

[Brian Shapiro]

I think it depends on circumstance. I would prefer to do what Donald Trump promised he was going to do, which was prioritize the violent criminals, which

[Jackson]

we know he's not doing then under that term, and again, not to interrupt You. But I really want to hone down your position. You said prioritize. That means you do believe in the deportation of non felons who have entered the country illegally.

[Brian Shapiro]

Not necessarily. So here's my issue with this, okay? And it's a little complex, but there is one party in this country that wants to make it more difficult for people to become naturalized citizens. That's called the Republican party. It takes 10 to 15 years in some cases for somebody to become a legal citizen. In some cases. I had a guy call into my show today, said, you know, $30,000 it cost him. So I, I want everyone to have the opportunity to come to this country as long as they're vetted, as long as they have good intentions, so long as they're not violent criminals. For the people that are already in this country illegally that are not violent, my best answer would be this. It has to be a case by case basis. There has to be some sort of penalty that I think they would need to pay, especially if they have families here.

[Jackson]

There is a penalty.

[Brian Shapiro]

Right. But, but, but I believe a lot of these people, not all of them, but a lot of these people are important for our economy. They're important for our society. And I think there has to be a way of doing it that is different than the way the Trump administration is doing it. Violent criminals. Yes. Nonviolent criminals. Let's work out a way where Republicans and Democrats could come together, which Donald Trump is not capable of doing. But let's try to figure out a way where Republicans and Democrats come here and say, okay, we're going to get rid of the violent criminals. We agree on that. We disagree with the nonviolent criminals, what's the proposal? And sit at the table and try to iron something out. But deporting some of these people that are nonviolent, that have lived in this country for 20 or 30 years, stories that we've heard of a father who has three sons that serve in the military, and the guy's never committed a violent crime. You can't be okay with that. Somebody like that that's being deported and separated from their families. And then the excuse I hear, well, just follow the law. And these are the same people who have no problem voting for a 34 count felon.

[Jackson]

So I think you're, I want to let you monologue because I, because I

[Brian Shapiro]

know this is like, well, do you understand my position?

[Jackson]

100%. 100%. But I think that that position can exist independent of, you know, particular case studies that make for good clips now that I understand that you do at least believe in some sense, and I think you're actually not being super clear. Do you believe that the part of U.S. code in Title 8 of the U.S. code which specifically enumerates the penalties for illegal entry.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes.

[Jackson]

Do you think we should get rid of those penalties?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I don't think we should get rid of those penalties. Do you think.

[Jackson]

Do you think that the penalty, or rather the consequence which is being placed in removal proceedings ought not be the consequence of illegal entry?

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, my retort to that or my, my answer to that would be the overwhelming majority of people that are in this country illegally don't cross the border illegally.

[Jackson]

They overstay their visas either. Either way, yeah. The penalty is being placed in removal proceedings.

[Brian Shapiro]

I understand that.

[Jackson]

Do you think that should change?

[Brian Shapiro]

I think I would be okay with it changing to another sort of penalty other than deportation. If we're not talking about violent criminals. Maybe it could be a financial penalty then. Then maybe it could be something other than that.

[Jackson]

Well, there currently is a $250 financial penalty. I think it might even be a little bit more. That is the penalty for.

[Brian Shapiro]

You should have to go through the process, maybe take some English courses, maybe, maybe learn the history of this country a little bit, maybe. I think there are other ways that we can handle this situation other than just let's just deport everybody that's undocumented.

[Jackson]

Isn't deportation the perfect and moral response to a crime which concerns illegally entering a place?

[Brian Shapiro]

Say that one more time.

[Jackson]

Isn't removal. Isn't deportation the perfect calculated response to if somebody enters a place illegally?

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't think it's a calculated response. When you have families and children, you're going again, family members. I think it's a case by case basis.

[Jackson]

Okay. Okay. So in a case where somebody has illegally entered the country.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes.

[Jackson]

And let's say we find him in the first year, is it okay for the government to deport that individual because they've entered illegally?

[Brian Shapiro]

Are we talking about somebody who's nonviolent?

[Jackson]

Are we talking about somebody who is nonviolent, who has committed.

[Brian Shapiro]

How do they deport that person? How do they go about that process?

[Jackson]

They are. They are sent. Well, it depends if they've been here.

[Brian Shapiro]

Right.

[Jackson]

For not.

[Brian Shapiro]

What if they filed two years? What if they're seeking asylum and they filled out proper paperwork?

[Jackson]

One of the things we're going to get into, because you've already lighted into a lot of it, is that I think there are huge problems with the way that Asylum claims are being made. I think there is huge corruption in the process of asylum claims. And one of the big issues. Right. Is that people tend to believe that they have a unique right to claim asylum in the United States of America. There are immigrants that come from countries other than Mexico, which means that as those immigrants, if they are not, you know, immigrating by plane and overstaying a visa, if they immigrate northward through a variety of Central American countries, they ought to claim asylum in the first possible country where they are not being threatened.

[Brian Shapiro]

My question, though, is, do you think

[Jackson]

that they ought to do that, or do you think that they have a right to come to the United States and declare asylum here?

[Brian Shapiro]

It depends what country.

[Jackson]

Okay, so let's say they come from Bolivia.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay.

[Jackson]

Where should they claim asylum if they're

[Brian Shapiro]

doing it legally in our Constitution, There are countries. Well, hold on a second. This is important because the Trump administration, what you're talking about right now, in some cases, are breaking the law. Somebody's seeking asylum from Mexico. Yeah. And they're filling out the property.

[Jackson]

Well, we're not talking about Mexico. We're saying, what if they come from Bolivia?

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. Well, there are different laws. There are different laws, Bolivia, than they are for Mexico. For people that are seeking asylum, you have to abide by those laws.

[Jackson]

You're correct. What I'm asking is where do you believe that they should claim asylum? Do you think it has to be in the United States?

[Brian Shapiro]

No.

[Jackson]

You think it could be in any number of countries that they would find.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't think it has to be the United States.

[Jackson]

No.

[Brian Shapiro]

I never would say that.

[Jackson]

The problem is, I think that the way we talk about immigration and certainly asylum claims.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Jackson]

It seems like the United States has this unique responsibility, and it's almost as if people feel privileged that they have the right to claim asylum in the United States.

[Brian Shapiro]

Let's talk about that.

[Jackson]

If they're persecuted by a government, by their own government, there are plenty of states next to the states where they are coming from, where they ought to be claiming asylum, because the threat disappears

[Brian Shapiro]

as they cross the Kai. We're going to get into this, but you use the word privilege, and this is my problem with this, and I would ask you this question, but I would also say we are both privileged. We were born in the United States of America. We both happen to be white, and we're very lucky we hit the lottery, because I still love this country, even though I am. I am very, very upset with where this country's headed because of Donald Trump and the Republican Party. But. But we're very privileged, right?

[Jackson]

Absolutely.

[Brian Shapiro]

These are people that are not as privileged as us, 100%. So why do you see these people as a threat to the United States of America? You know, the people that I see as a threat to the United States.

[Jackson]

Have I said that?

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, why is this a big issue for you? I respect the fact that you're willing to have this conversation, but I think

[Jackson]

the application of the laws is the duty of the American government. So long as 1325 of Title 8 of US Code exists. In order to be a moral and a just country, we have to enforce the laws. And you've actually relied on that as the metric. The metric for the debate that you have applied is the Trump government is doing something wrong because it is defying the law.

[Brian Shapiro]

They are.

[Jackson]

So to the extent. So to the extent that we are using the law as the benchmark by which we are, you know, discussing the morality or the righteousness of the debate and the issue of immigration, it would be wrong for a government to not enforce current immigration law.

[Brian Shapiro]

To an extent, I agree with you. Barack Obama did it the right way. Yeah. And I'll give you a couple of reasons.

[Jackson]

Why do you think Bush did it the right way?

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't have enough knowledge of Bush. That's policy. So I'm not going to give you an answer if I don't know. That's right. But when we talk about Barack Obama, he didn't have Dr. Phil out there with a microphone gleeful over people that are being deported. He wasn't sending people to El Salvador prisons, wasn't taking away their first, Third, or Fourth Amendment rights, to my knowledge. Can I caveat that to an extent, there are. There are some situations, except there are

[Jackson]

some right within 100 miles of the border within the first two years.

[Brian Shapiro]

There are some specific exceptions. Exceptions. You are right about that. But I feel like with the Trump administration and the Laura Loomers of the world, and I'm not putting you in that category because I do not think you are like that. But deport all. Everybody. You know, denaturalize and deport. Ill. I'm not an Ilhan Omar fan, but deport and denaturalize. Mehdi Hasan. Deport. I feel like this is a tax on brown people. See, I don't like those statements because I think it's. It's racist.

[Jackson]

Well, I think if.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think it's horrible if we're applying

[Jackson]

the law, the penalty for illegal immigration from Ukraine is the same as the penalty for illegal immigration from, from Mexico. I mean, the penalty is the same. The issue is that it seems like you are creating an arbitrarity in the application of the laws. And I'm willing to admit that there is a lot of arbitrarity in the way that we, you know, apply. Many we can start with, but I think impartiality is the best thing we could do.

[Brian Shapiro]

We can start with most extreme circumstance. I hope, I hope, I hope you would agree with me that violent felons go first. What's happened in Minneapolis is a travesty. And which, which part.

[Jackson]

There's a lot.

[Brian Shapiro]

Renee Good and Alex Preddy, for two specific examples, barging down the door as ICE agents when you don't have a warrant to go into a home is against the law. I would also say I, I, I

[Jackson]

would caveat that there, there's, there's significant judicial consideration of that question right now. And it's being debated in such a way where the Trump Admin is actually currently seeking to amend the process of investigation for ICE agents. If you've been keeping up at all with the current.

[Brian Shapiro]

But there are multiple examples with video that show ICE agents doing something wrong, breaking the law.

[Jackson]

You could cite every single one of those cases. And every single time I will tell you, including in the cases of Renee, go to Alex Preddy, that an investigation should occur. And to the extent that something is done unlawful. Well, hold on. That's a separate issue. What I'm telling you is my response. What I'm telling you is what I think ought to occur. What ought to occur is that it should be investigated. And to the extent that a law is being egregiously broken, it ought to certainly be prosecuted. The officer ought not to be an officer. And I would say the exact same thing about any law enforcement officer.

[Brian Shapiro]

But this is Donald Trump's immigration policy. 47 hours of training for a bunch of goons wearing masks that are not properly trained.

[Jackson]

I want to say I've seen, it's been very difficult for me to find substantiation of that claim.

[Brian Shapiro]

What the 47.

[Jackson]

Donald Trump has said that the 47 hours.

[Brian Shapiro]

47 days.

[Jackson]

47 days, yeah. See this, this is not the, that has not been the standard for DHS historically. And although, and although there have been amendments in recent months, I have not seen a ton of substantiation other than a couple reports that claim that there is a training that is as Limited as 47 days.

[Brian Shapiro]

What I believe even Bavano agreed or spoke about this publicly.

[Jackson]

What I Think often is probably the more applicable case is you have circumstances of cross training.

[Brian Shapiro]

Right.

[Jackson]

Or cross deputization. So you could have a law enforcement officer who's being cross deputized to become.

[Brian Shapiro]

There are some examples of that. But there are also examples of people that were looking for the $50,000 cash bonus and you know, they are not properly trained and qualified to be in those very high stress and difficult positions that they were in.

[Jackson]

I could maybe even grant you that. But again, what I think we're going to get to, and this is why I don't like maybe the minutia, you and I will probably overlap a lot in all the ways that I think deportation and ICE operations could be done better. But none of that matters if you and your heart of hearts don't believe with enforcing the current immigration law. And you have been very hesitant to even say that the penalty for illegal entry ought to be being placed in removal.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think there are better ways that our government can handle these people, many of whom I think are decent people.

[Jackson]

That I think is our debate.

[Brian Shapiro]

There are better ways to go about it. And the point that I'm making is that I would assume the party that you're in, the Republican Party and MAGA Republicans seem to make an emphasis on how horrible these people are. They're gonna rape your kids, they're gonna kidnap you. And we see specific anecdotal evidence of some horrible crimes.

[Jackson]

Well, you've given me the exact same thing, but for law enforcement officers. Well, like I could say the exact same thing. You've given me specific examples. Very horrible things that law enforcement officers have done.

[Brian Shapiro]

Sure. But here's the difference.

[Jackson]

They're not all bad.

[Brian Shapiro]

Here's the difference. I never said. Never said they're all bad.

[Jackson]

I know, but that's kind of what

[Brian Shapiro]

a lot of these ICE agents in Minneapolis did not protect anybody. So I completely disagree with you on that side. What they were doing and their behavior and what they've.

[Jackson]

Because the police ought to be the ones that have the confrontation in ice.

[Brian Shapiro]

Hi. They're supposed to be professionals. Okay, When I talk about.

[Jackson]

Hold on. Do you disagree that there was a lack of cooperation with the police and ICE in order to remove protesters from interfering with ICE agents. Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

So first of all, they wouldn't even allow local law enforcement there. If we're talking about the jails, ICE wouldn't. Yes, if you're talking about the jails. So if you're going to.

[Jackson]

I'm not talking about the jails. I'm talking about street confrontations.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, first of all, when it comes to ICE agents and what was going on there in Minneapolis, the reason why there wasn't a lot of communication, according to Tim Walsh in the mayor, their fray is because there wasn't cooperation with them. They wanted to help and they wanted to make sure that things didn't escalate in those cities. And I don't think tear gas.

[Jackson]

I disagree that they wanted to cooperate. Their calls were to get ICE out of the city like they were against deportations occurring at all.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why are border patrol agents 1500 miles from the border in Minneapolis? Can you please explain to me why they're there?

[Jackson]

Absolutely. Because what ICE does is interior removals.

[Brian Shapiro]

So border.

[Jackson]

Hold on, hold on. That is literally the job of ice. So Border patrol, like ICE wouldn't exist if we weren't deporting people from the interior of the country.

[Brian Shapiro]

Then why weren't these things happening under the Obama administration?

[Kai]

Why?

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, then we have this kind of violence.

[Jackson]

So when you have the creation of ICE in the early 2000s, that's when you have a renewed or rather a focus in on the issue of interior removals. So while you're right that, okay, Obama was deporting a lot of people, the deportations were at the border. Trump doesn't have as many at the border. Deportations.

[Brian Shapiro]

They're interesting. Border Patrol and ice, you're right, absolutely.

[Jackson]

Can you explain to me the difference, what is the difference between Border Patrol and ice?

[Brian Shapiro]

First of all, the ICE agents, many of whom, like for example, what happened to Alex Predd, we're border patrol agents. What happened to Renee? Good. My understanding, we're ICE agents. Usually. Usually, not all the time. It is the responsibility of Border patrol agents to protect the border at the border. That's your general, for the most part. That, okay, why they are 1500 miles from the border to me is insane and in my personal opinion, not appropriate.

[Jackson]

I'd have to look into the specific specifics of that because I don't know about the issue of jurisdiction. And I think there's a very reasonable possibility that again, this is an issue of cross deputization.

[Brian Shapiro]

Five year old kids should not be getting deported though. It's just, it just.

[Jackson]

Well, this is like. That's a total like.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, we're talking about. But. We're talking about.

[Jackson]

You're right, but, but you have not yet explained to me what is the difference between ICE and dhs. What is the difference in their functions?

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, obviously the function is protecting the border. Obviously the Border Patrol. Yeah, well, obviously, to an extent it's protecting the border. But the point that I was trying.

[Jackson]

Well, but hold on. The job of ice, though, is not necessarily in the same way protecting the border.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, the majority of ICE agents are supposed to be detaining, deporting and undocumented immigrants, criminals. From where? Well, from the United States of America, of.

[Jackson]

Yes, but in which specific region? That's typically not at the border. ICE agents are.

[Brian Shapiro]

More. Border agents are typically at the border.

[Jackson]

100%. Yes, that's 100%. ICE agents go into the interior of the country hundreds of miles away from the US Mexico border, and they go through the process of removal of people who have gotten already into the interior. That's the reason we have ICE is because there are people that get past the US Mexico border. They leave Texas, they leave California, and they go up north to a state like Minnesota. But it sounds like you're not even in favor of deporting people from the interior of the country. And what I.

[Brian Shapiro]

Depends on the circumstance.

[Jackson]

And this will maybe frame my argument. I think what that does is it perpetuates lawlessness. It tells people as long as you can avoid detection for a year or maybe two years, then it will just appear so bad optically that you will have gotten away with the crime of illegal entry and we will no longer deport you. And what does that do? It actually incentivizes more and more illegal entries. And what I think what you have kind of been arguing for is a United States that simply does not police entry into the country illegally.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I didn't say that. I didn't say it shouldn't be police.

[Jackson]

But what, but what would.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm arguing.

[Jackson]

What would be the point if you're granting amnesty to all of the people who get past the border?

[Brian Shapiro]

What I'm. What I'm arguing is the way the Trump administration is doing it. And you said perpetuate lawlessness. Yes, and I do find that extremely hypocritical. Now, you told me off the air that you did not vote for Donald Trump, but you probably maybe would have if you, if you had the opportunity

[Jackson]

to in 2020, would have in 2024. I don't know.

[Brian Shapiro]

Does it perpetuate lawlessness when the leader of the free world is ripping apart. No, this is important. You're laughing.

[Jackson]

Is it going to.

[Brian Shapiro]

Do you believe in our Constitution?

[Jackson]

Yes, I do. Yes. Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

Does it perpetuate lawlessness when you're not giving people the right to due process? Does it perpetuate lawlessness when these ICE agents and many of these Thugs are trying to cover up murder. Does it perpetuate lawlessness after a shooting? Let's talk about Alex Preddy for a moment. When Kristi Noem calls Alex Preddy a domestic terrorist. When Stephen Miller calls Alex Preddy, I'm trying to remember the word, the terminology that he used. I think you want to talk about getting, you know, getting off or getting away with a crime. What about, we can disagree with Renee Goode. There is not going to be an invented investigation. And guess what? Jonathan Ross is now a millionaire because of right wing idiots and assholes. I'm sorry, I'm just going to call it for what it is that have donated money to this guy without an independent investigation. So if you want to preach to me about, if you want to preach to me about people getting away with crimes, you should start with your leader, Donald Trump, who is getting away with crimes every day.

[Jackson]

So I think the signing of these particular cases, specifically, you know, the ability of people to raise money for people on GoFundMe.

[Brian Shapiro]

Did Jonathan Ross get, maybe get away with a crime without an independent investigation?

[Jackson]

I think, I think there absolutely should be an investigation.

[Brian Shapiro]

So he could have gotten away with a crime.

[Jackson]

Well, so hold on, hold on. What I was pointing out is the fact that, you know, the rhetorical framing. You have to just obviously admit that this can come both ways. You know, there was hundreds of thousands of dollars given to a black teen who stabbed Austin Metcalfe in the neck.

[Brian Shapiro]

Let's talk about Texas. Let's talk about that.

[Jackson]

Hold on.

[Brian Shapiro]

Happy to.

[Jackson]

Happy to.

[Brian Shapiro]

I've heard this argument and it's ridiculous

[Jackson]

that first of all, wait, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. It's which part of the claim? The fact that thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars were raised prior to an investigation or conviction?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, the reason why it's completely different is because of this. There is an investigation there and he will have the opportunity to defend himself in a courtroom. If he was found guilty of murder and people were still sending him money, I would agree with you.

[Jackson]

Well, hold on.

[Brian Shapiro]

Jonathan Ross, there's no investigation.

[Jackson]

Has he been found guilty of murder?

[Brian Shapiro]

The point. Has he been found?

[Jackson]

Okay, perfect.

[Brian Shapiro]

There's no independent investigation.

[Jackson]

Brian, Brian, Brian, Brian. But in neither case had there been an investigation into the crime. You're arguing in either case, in either

[Brian Shapiro]

course that was invest. It's being investigated. Charges that were filed.

[Jackson]

Being and was are two different tenses. You're speaking in the present tense.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you think there's going to be an independent. They've already said The Trump administration.

[Jackson]

For a second. Just listen to me for a second. We're comparing two cases in which neither case at the moment of the donations was there an investigation.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's not true. There was an ongoing investigation when those donations. He was arrested. He was charged with a crime.

[Jackson]

The murderer of Austin Metcalfe.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes.

[Jackson]

Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

By the way, we don't know if it was murder. He was charged. We don't know.

[Jackson]

That proves my point.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay.

[Jackson]

Prior, there was. Hold on, hold on, Brian. But prior to an investigation and conviction, people were spending and sending hundreds of thousands of dollars to the murder. Potential alleged murderer of Austin Mattcat.

[Brian Shapiro]

Right, right.

[Jackson]

That proves my point.

[Brian Shapiro]

If people were sending money in investigation,

[Jackson]

people are sending money to both sides

[Brian Shapiro]

of the political line. People were sending money to Jonathan Ross after he had been charged. But he has crime because there's no independent investigation.

[Jackson]

Yes, yes, Brian, but. But you're not understanding that in either case. Look, I, I agree with you that there should be an investigation, but what we're comparing are two situations in which different circumstances. What we're comparing are two situations in which neither has had a thorough investigation which has resulted in a conviction, which. Hold on. Which means in. In both cases, we do not know if either individual is a murderer. We know that it has.

[Brian Shapiro]

He was indicted by a grand jury. I don't know what you're saying. The prosecutors put forth evidence already upon indictment.

[Jackson]

Is an individual a convicted murderer?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, but that's not my argument.

[Jackson]

What is the purpose of an indictment?

[Brian Shapiro]

My argument, number one, is that first of all, there is no video, okay. Of what this kid did. There was eyewitness testimony. He was charged, and I don't know whether he'd be found guilty or not.

[Jackson]

But you think sending money to him was fine.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think they're two completely different circumstances.

[Jackson]

Then we can scrap them both. I think I've made my case sufficiently, which is that this cuts both ways on the political side.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I don't think it does. And I'll give you another example. Do you remember the white woman who. The white woman who that said the N word. Who called a five year old the N word. Yes. And all the people give me. Give me an example on the left of donations made for something very similar to that.

[Jackson]

I'm sure if I had more time, I could give you another example. But then what? It is what it is.

[Kai]

I do want to let Jackson speak in a second example of that. I mean, you look at Slay, the GOP who celebrated Charlie Kirk's death. She had a large GoFundMe that supported her.

[Brian Shapiro]

Wait, who celebrated Charlie Kirk's death? Slave.

[Kai]

The gop.

[Brian Shapiro]

Who is that?

[Kai]

Influencer. Who was that for? Counter examples.

[Brian Shapiro]

A left wing influencer, Leftist influencer. And people sent her money. I don't know.

[Kai]

She was sent money to support her because she was fired for supporting Charlie Kirk's death.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, okay, well, I disagree with that.

[Kai]

Okay, but that's an example. So just.

[Brian Shapiro]

I, I disagree with that. Will you. Why the same.

[Jackson]

I just said there should be an independent investigation.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, no, but hold on. The lady who donated money to.

[Jackson]

Yeah, People shouldn't send her money.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's wrong. Right. Okay.

[Jackson]

Yeah, that'. I don't think you should go. I don't think you should call 5 year olds the N word.

[Brian Shapiro]

Like, I don't know, I wish you

[Jackson]

expected me to say to that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, to be honest with you, I've debated people on Piers Morgan, like idiots like Jack Bosobic, who would not call it out.

[Jackson]

Well, Jack's not in this room.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, he's not, but I just, I didn't know what your opinion was on that. I'm glad to hear you say that. I absolutely love call out bad people that send people.

[Jackson]

I don't like money, let's say swear words. You know, I'm not, I'm not in favor of people calling 5 year olds the N word. Like, I, I don't know, I'm surprised to hear that. That was a ridiculous idea. But I mean, he's proved the point, which is that you can cut both ways with these anecdotes, but all you're doing is throwing darts at a board when we talk about the larger issue. And this will maybe be my closing so we can pass it over and maybe you'll tackle something different. Maybe you'd like to continue. But the framing is that, look, as it stands, if we are using the metric of a law in order to determine the justness of what we're doing, it is just. It is reasonable to deport people who have illegally entered the country regardless of how much time there is. And the example I'd like to use is this. If you have people, let's say you, you are renting a property. You're renting a property and there's some time where the landlord simply is not really on your case and you can get away with not paying the rent for several months. So let's say the first month you pay the rent anyway. Let's say next month, you know, he doesn't remind you and you realize that you forgot to pay. Third month goes by, you just stop paying. Let's say four years go by, you haven't paid the rent, but you signed initially a contract, and the condition stipulated in the contract is that you would pay a certain amount each month. Now, if the landlord changes, that contract is then assumed by a different landlord, and the landlord comes to you the next month and says, hey, I need you to start paying the rent. You have no grounds upon which to complain about needing to pay the rent. And in this case, the rent is the consequence of a legal entry when you enter the country. And if you want to talk about being subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, you're also subject to its laws. The law concerning illegal entry is that you should be placed in removal proceedings. And it seems like you are hesitant to apply that law if the individual is not a violent felon. But I don't believe in a reactive or a reactionary way of enforcing our laws. I think that to the extent that we already have a legal justification for removing illegal immigrants, every single crime that they could ever commit is automatically one that we could avoid by simply enforcing the first law that they break.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. So my response to that would be, number one, I think that's a very poor analogy. First of all, not paying the rent, I think is very different than some of these individuals that are seeking asylum and, and, and their lives are in jeopardy, either themselves or their families. So I think that's an extremely poor analogy to make that compared to somebody who's irresponsible, who, who's not paying their rent or what have you, that. I would say, number one. And I would say, number two, I want consistency. If you're very adamant about people, you know, the standards of our laws and people abiding by law, then maybe the leader of your party, you know, maybe. Maybe he shouldn't be there. Maybe. Maybe the Republican Party and people in the party shouldn't support a felon, a liable sexual abuser. I want consistency. If you think that committing a misdemeanor,

[Jackson]

what do you think? I think about Trump's sexual promiscuity and impropriety.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't know what you think about it.

[Jackson]

I'm absolutely against it.

[Brian Shapiro]

So your entire. They look at this guy like a messiah. Why won't more people like you called

[Jackson]

out, are they in the room?

[Brian Shapiro]

What do you think?

[Jackson]

Referring to individuals who are not debating, who are not in the room.

[Brian Shapiro]

All right, I'll ask you flat out, is Donald Trump a really bad guy?

[Jackson]

I don't make heart judgments.

[Brian Shapiro]

You don't somebody that goes into a girl's locker room without their permission and looks at them, yeah, that's not a bad guy.

[Jackson]

I think there, I think there are so many ways and moments of an individual's life that you could point out and say, don't you think for this thing that that person is a bad guy? I just don't judge people's hearts well, I think I can judge their actions.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, guess what? I do. And when somebody goes there, when somebody goes into a girl's locker room and brags about it in a sexual manner and brags about grabbing women by the genitals, when somebody attacks black people and says, I don't want black people counting my money in my casinos, I want Jews counting my money when somebody associates themselves, See, But I don't think, honestly, I don't think that's funny. When the leader of the free world says things like that, I think it's bigotry, I think it's racism. And yes, I think he's an atrocious human being, as you know, who has 25 women have accused him of sexual abuse. Or his own ex wife, are you aware, accused him of in a deposition under oath and then he paid her off.

[Jackson]

I, I believe in a nation of laws. And for that reason, I don't think

[Brian Shapiro]

you think a felon should be the president.

[Jackson]

I don't think an accusation alone is actually enough to convict an individual for crime.

[Brian Shapiro]

What about liable for sexual abuse? What about, you know, you're a religious guy, right?

[Kai]

Yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files more than Jesus Christ's name is in the Bible. Are you aware that. Oh, it's not.

[Kai]

I've heard that.

[Brian Shapiro]

On how many talk.

[Jackson]

Dude, that is just literally.

[Brian Shapiro]

How many times is he in the Epstein files and how many times is Jesus Christ named in the Bible? You know how many pages are in

[Jackson]

the Bible and how many pages.

[Brian Shapiro]

I didn't talk about pages.

[Jackson]

Well, hold on, hold on. You wanted to cite something, so let's analyze it from an accurate statistical framework. Do you understand how proportions work?

[Brian Shapiro]

I do, but it doesn't mean my statement isn't true.

[Jackson]

Hold on, hold on. Proportionally, your statement is incorrect.

[Brian Shapiro]

Jesus Christ's name is in the proportionately. Yeah, that's not what I said. Well, that's not what I said.

[Jackson]

Well, then we're getting into the weeds.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's not what I said.

[Jackson]

No, no, Brian, we're not getting into the weeds. What I'm doing is calling you out for lying with statistics. What you said may be factually true.

[Brian Shapiro]

It is.

[Jackson]

But the reason it's factually true is because there's 3 million Epstein files that have been released and there are not even a million pages in the Bible. So that means that as a proportion, the name of Jesus obviously occurs more in the Bible than the name of Trump in the Epstein. But what you did is lied with statistics.

[Brian Shapiro]

Didn't lie. I made a statement. That's true.

[Jackson]

You framed it and said something that is literally true. But it lies a reality.

[Brian Shapiro]

There's plenty less pages in the Bible. If you'd like me to clarify. But the leader of your party.

[Jackson]

Would you agree that as a proportion Jesus's name is mentioned more in the Bible?

[Brian Shapiro]

As a proportion. I didn't think I would have to do that. How do you feel about the leader of your party? This is the leader of your party. He's the leader of the free world. Jeffrey Epstein was his best friend for over a decade. How do you feel about that thousands of times.

[Jackson]

How do you feel about Noam Chomsky hanging out with. Do you know Noam Chomsky?

[Brian Shapiro]

Why are you doing what about ism?

[Jackson]

Because you do that with Donald Trump. Donald Trump's the president's impossible moment.

[Brian Shapiro]

Trump's the president.

[Jackson]

Noam Chomsky is a leftist scholar who is one of the most foundational thinkers of linguistics of the last decades.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, so what? I'm talking about the leader of the freedom.

[Jackson]

And I'm talking about a leftist intellectual.

[Brian Shapiro]

Is he a politician? Is he a policymaker?

[Jackson]

Yes. Okay, then you're trading an arbitrarity.

[Brian Shapiro]

What's the difference between what about ism?

[Jackson]

What's between an intellectual and a policymaker? Why is one more important than the other?

[Brian Shapiro]

Because he does.

[Jackson]

Policymakers get their ideas because he doesn't

[Brian Shapiro]

write law and he can't get us into ill advised wars. That's why. Oh, yeah, I'm talking about the leader of the free war.

[Jackson]

We're getting. By the way, this is the point. But I think I'm showing what, What?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I think you're showing what about ism. And you're defending the indefensible. Let's go back to Donald Trump for a moment because we're talking about immigration.

[Jackson]

I think he never. I think he never should have had extramarital or premarital sex.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, I didn't. I didn't.

[Jackson]

It's one of the worst things.

[Brian Shapiro]

You think he's a liable. Are all these women lying?

[Jackson]

No, no, I'm saying he never should have had premarital or extra?

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm not talking about that. I'm not talking about that.

[Jackson]

Well, I am, because I think that's wrong.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, well, I would tend to agree with you on that. And he's done a lot.

[Jackson]

You're against premarital sex.

[Brian Shapiro]

I know. Not premarital sex, but cheating. You know, cheating on women.

[Jackson]

Okay, good. Wait, why is cheating bad?

[Brian Shapiro]

Lying to your spouse? I don't like that. Is that a serious question?

[Jackson]

No, no, I. I think you can deduce it. But I think that cheating is actually, you know, it has a significant Christian moral implication. But we're way off the plot of immigration. I want to give my. My, My duo here, so I just.

[Brian Shapiro]

Give me 20 seconds here.

[Jackson]

Okay, I'll let you finish. I interrupted.

[Brian Shapiro]

You know, I want consistency. And you're so adamant about somebody who commits a misdemeanor being deported. Because it does say legally that if you're undocumented, you know, if you're not filling out the property, you should be. But then why doesn't the same rule apply to the President of the United States? Why isn't the same rule apply when we talk about fraud and MAGA Republicans and the Nick Shirley's of the world, who I think is an imbecile when we talk about fraud, but yet Donald Trump. You said what?

[Jackson]

I think he's cool. I think Nick's cool.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think he's cool.

[Jackson]

Yeah. He's a buddy. He's a friend.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. I think he's awesome.

[Kai]

Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you think going to Ukraine and making satire videos about a war when women and children are dying, do you think that's cool?

[Jackson]

I'm gonna be honest. It's the first time I've heard.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, that's really sad if he's your friend.

[Jackson]

Well, you haven't let me finish.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay.

[Jackson]

I think that's the first time I've heard somebody mention the Ukraine video when Nick Shirley has been brought up. I haven't seen the video, so I can't speak to it. Okay, okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'll educate you on it. So, Nick.

[Jackson]

Well, I'd rather you finish up your statement just because I won't be able to corroborate or agree with.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, you can cooperate by putting on your phone right now. So Nick Shirley did an interview about that and he was challenged on that and he admitted it was sa. Satire. In fact, those were his words. He made a joke about a war. He went over there.

[Jackson]

I think you can make jokes about wars. I don't have a problem.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think. I think when women and children are dying, I don't think there's anything funny about that. And I wouldn't take my money from my YouTubers and go to another country and make jokes about a war. By the way, Nick is a idiot. Okay? He's an idiot.

[Jackson]

Not say the F word.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, Well, I mean, listen, he's a. He's an idiot.

[Jackson]

Well, I don't think you have a

[Brian Shapiro]

problem with the F word. Yes, you do.

[Jackson]

Yeah. With most swear words.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, you do. You have a problem with swear words.

[Jackson]

Yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

How about when Trump talks about grabbing women by the genitals?

[Jackson]

Yeah. I think that his, his verbiage was very crass.

[Brian Shapiro]

Good.

[Jackson]

Not a fan.

[Brian Shapiro]

At least you're consistent, so I respect that.

[Jackson]

Like I said, I wish he hadn't had premarital sex or grabbed anybody by anything.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm glad to hear that. I met Nick Shirley in Phoenix. Your friend.

[Kai]

Me too.

[Brian Shapiro]

And I met his mom.

[Jackson]

Awesome.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think he's an extremely ignorant person. I think he's a grifter. I think. By the way, let me ask you a question. If he exposed all this fraud, can you name me any new investigations or any arrests that have been made because of his videos? Can you name me one?

[Jackson]

I haven't taken this.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because there aren't any. Because there aren't any. He didn't expose anything.

[Jackson]

Well, and to the, to the extent that that's the case, I think it's probably because a lot of the consequence of his investigation in Minnesota just led to an inefficient use of Department of Homeland Security resources. And I think because of the, you know, blatant insurrection occurring in the state, it was very difficult actually to process.

[Brian Shapiro]

You care about wasteful spending and you care about fraud? Is that a fair characterization?

[Jackson]

Yes. But is this going to wrap up?

[Kai]

Up?

[Jackson]

Let's bring in the statement.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. We can, we can, we can continue that.

[Jackson]

I'm sorry. We'll table that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Kai]

Well, so we were talking a lot about, you know, illegal immigration. I guess I thought. There's some stuff I want to clarify, but I want to talk about sort of the moral injustice implications of not doing mass deportations. So firstly, do you believe that we should have mass deportations for any non criminals?

[Brian Shapiro]

Should we have mass deportations for non criminals? Well, it's a crime coming here.

[Kai]

You know what I mean? But like non post illegal immigration criminals,

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't necessarily agree with. With mass deportation for non violent criminals. Yes. I think there are better ways to go about it. Like I told Kai, I agree. I Don't agree with the way the Trump administration is handling it.

[Kai]

I agree.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't like what they're prioritizing.

[Kai]

I agree.

[Brian Shapiro]

And I have a serious problem with the way ICE in general are handling things. For the most part. I don't think they were violent protesters. I mean, there were some. And by the way, even if it's not against the law, just to be clear, I don't want people following ice. I don't think you're going to get anywhere by doing that. I wish Renee Goode got out of the car. Doesn't mean she deserves to be shot in the face. I wish she got out of the car and complied. And I don't want people throwing things at ICE officers. I don't. Listen, you're allowed to scream. You're allowed to yell. You're allowed to blow your whistle. And if that gets ICE agents that angry that they. They'll tear gas somebody for doing that, then they shouldn't have the job. But I. Yeah, I don't want people put in dangerous situations. I want people to be alive. And so I want to be clear on that. I've called out violence on both sides. I think following ICE officers is very stupid. It might not be illegal, but it's very stupid. And what are you trying to accomplish by doing that? Peacefully protest. Right. Peacefully protest. Everybody has the right to peacefully protest. I believe Alex Preddy was doing that. What was Renee Good doing? Maybe a misdemeanor. Let's just say, worst case scenario, she was blocking traffic. Didn't deserve to die. But anyway, we're getting a little off. Absolutely.

[Kai]

We can get into Renegade later. It's a separate topic. I would say almost all those descriptors about ICE behavior I can agree with. I think the Trump administration has failed in many, if not most ways in regards to mass deportations. But my big discrepancy with your position is a pure ideological standard. I believe that it's extremely important to have deportations of illegal immigrants, regardless of violent criminal offense or not. And I can go through the reasons, but first, I want to ask a couple of questions. Okay, so I guess, what do you think the purpose of government action or law should be like, in a broad sense,

[Brian Shapiro]

the purpose of law in general? I think the purpose of laws in general are to protect people in a general term. You know, I. I don't. I don't agree with every law that's put on the books, obviously, but I think in a general term, they're. They're put on the books to. To to protect individuals, to protect people.

[Kai]

In a lot of senses that's accurate. I always go for the terms good and just. But I think these things are both very similar scenarios. And I guess we have to say like, you know, who should our laws be serving? If we're a nation making laws by people who were. If people in our nation are making laws and they're liable to the electorate of American citizens, then who should our laws primarily be serving?

[Brian Shapiro]

I think the people. I know what you're trying to get me to say. Americans.

[Kai]

Yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

But in some instances the laws in our country do not just protect American citizens, they're also meant to protect, protect everybody. Example, if you have undocumented immigrant that was robbed and somebody calls the police, the police aren't going to come out and they shouldn't come out and say I'm not going to get your information and I'm not going to try the, try to find the perpetrator because you're not an American citizen. That's not the way all the laws work. So I think that's important to note. Law enforcement, they're not only here to protect, protect the United States citizens. But in general terms they're all just like a hospital, right? If somebody shows up at a hospital and they don't have health care insurance and maybe they're undocumented and they need life saving care, we're still going to give them life saving care, Right? So I think the same thing applies to, to, to laws. In a sense, we're all human beings, right? And you know, if an undocumented immigrant is the victim of a crime, we're still going to investigate that crime. We're still going to try to find the people who committed the crime. Time. Does that make sense?

[Kai]

Yeah, maybe a better question is what should our laws be prioritizing? U.S. citizens or illegal immigrants, what should

[Brian Shapiro]

our laws be prioritizing? I think it depends on the law. I think it depends.

[Kai]

There are some laws that should be advertising.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think, I think in general terms, yeah, you should probably prioritize American citizens.

[Kai]

I think every single term. You should prioritize American citizens.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think, I think for the most part I would agree, but I think it depends there are some exceptions to the rule.

[Kai]

That's what the purpose of democracy, right. The laws should be made, you know, liable to the people to serve the people. I would say so at least.

[Brian Shapiro]

I just, I, I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, but I just want consistency. I want the laws to be applied and what it says in our Constitution to people that are undocumented as well, people that are not getting due process. I agree with you that, yeah, as a whole, Americans should be prioritized. Sure. I don't have a problem with that. That's not what this administration is doing. They're prioritizing Israel. They're prioritizing Vladimir Putin.

[Kai]

Let's slow down a little bit, I

[Brian Shapiro]

guess I want consistency, though. I agree.

[Kai]

Well, we're moving on to prescriptors, but I want to focus the descriptors. Like, is it a problem? Should it be done? If it could be done and we can talk about how. Because I have an answer to both. So talking about should it be done. So obviously, if we're talking about illegal immigration and we've just said law should be doing good and just, and laws should be prioritizing US Citizens, I believe that gives sufficient grounds for mass deportations. And it's because mass deportations is not a binary on and off switch. It's a set of three options where you have to pick one. Option one is to keep them here and do nothing. Option two is to deport them, and option three is to codify them, you know, making them a US Citizen. I believe that both keeping them here and doing nothing and codifying them are immensely more immoral and unethical than deportation.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but what about, what about any example of somebody that's been here illegal, that has children that were born here? Do you think they should be deported?

[Kai]

This is on the topic of just nonviolent effects offenders. If we're talking about, like, younger people.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, that's what I'm talking about.

[Kai]

There's area of nuance. Well, but no, you're not, because you believe that even nonviolent offenders who are older shouldn't be deported. So let's say, let's just, let's let's isolate.

[Brian Shapiro]

I didn't necessarily say that. That's not necessarily my characterization. I don't like the way that, again, I'll repeat, kind of like my stance on this. I don't like the way the Trump administration is going about this. What I said was I wish there was a better way. I don't like the way they're going about it.

[Kai]

I have the better way forward. You. And I guess, but focusing on the descriptor, do you agree that a man, if you're, if you were a man who has no kids and you're here illegally and you've not committed a violent crime, if you can be deported, should you be deported?

[Brian Shapiro]

What if they're A benefit to the economy.

[Kai]

Doesn't matter.

[Brian Shapiro]

Doesn't matter.

[Kai]

And they're not. We can talk about that.

[Brian Shapiro]

There's a. There are a lot of undocumented immigrants that are benefiting the economy, a lot of people that are working jobs that Americans won't take. There's a lot of examples that I can give you of how undocumented immigrants are actually helping.

[Kai]

We can go into that, but I have a cat counter for that. Sorry. But I guess moving on, just focusing on the main point. If a guy's here who has no kids, came in illegally, and is a nonviolent offender, if possible, should he be deported?

[Brian Shapiro]

Is the Trump administration targeting them? Are they targeting them? Are they. Are they prioritizing them? How. How is he getting deported? I guess that's my question.

[Kai]

If you have a button right in the middle of the table, it says deport all nonviolent, single, no kid having.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, I just. I don't. I don't agree with that.

[Kai]

Okay, well, let's express why.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't.

[Kai]

So I guess moving into it, why do you believe. Actually, let's go through the three options, because obviously, we can criticize mass deportations endlessly. They're not optically pleasing. They cause damage, they cause suffering. But we have to, obviously, with all policy decisions, weigh them with our counter options.

[Brian Shapiro]

Wait, say that again. Who causes damage and suffering?

[Kai]

Who causes damage?

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes. I'm sorry, repeat that one more time.

[Jackson]

He means mass deportation.

[Kai]

Mass deportations, like almost any policy implemented by the US Government, will damage and hurt some people. Well, yeah, of course, but it's comparative. Comparative policy choice. So our options are to keep them here and do nothing. To deport them or to codify them.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. So I don't think we should do nothing. I never said that. As I've said before, and I'll say again, my personal opinion is I think there is a better pathway for these people if they're good people that have not committed a crime in their life other than coming to this country and not having the right proper documentation. I, number one, do not see these people as a threat that both of you see them as. Per capita in this country, you have a better chance of being the victim of a crime from an American citizen than you do an undocumented immigrant. Number two, they're working jobs that I think a lot of Americans are not willing to work. Number three, I would tell you that a lot of these people, not all of them, but a lot of these people have families here. A lot of these people, you're breaking their families. A lot of these people have children. Maybe they have wives, maybe they have husbands.

[Kai]

Can I. I have a problem with that. The families is a very complicated issue, and by some studies, it may not even affect most illegals here. So for now, I want to focus just strictly on the policy decision of, as I said, our token illegal immigrant who's here with no wife, no kids, no one knows him, he lives in a ghost town, you know. But if we're talking about the issues here, I think when you talk about, you know, obviously they have low crime rates to work non American jobs, you don't see the threat. The threat for me is not the illegal itself. I understand the logistical reality that they may not demonstrate a direct threat to me as a person, but there's a lot more that policy problems can arise from than just like high crime rates. Right. I'd say one of the biggest, most important parts of US Policy decision making is rule of law. When you look at nations that are about to collapse, one of the best anthropological indicators for a nation's collapse is decay of rule of law. You agree with this, Brian? You criticize Trump endlessly. I criticize Trump endlessly. We share this commonality. I'm simply asking that we can express this and move this into mass deportations. Because, as you'll see with the arguments for not doing mass deportations any area we subvert rule of law. Law inherently builds in injustice and sows in immorality to the United States justice system. I don't believe we should have selective nullification for some people and not others. I call that injustice and selective punishment, which is extremely immoral to me and

[Brian Shapiro]

I believe to you as well, selective. Okay, let's talk a little bit about that. So Donald Trump gave a pathway to citizenship for. I think it was somewhere around 40 or 50 South Africans that are 100% white. White who came into this country. This was about eight or nine months ago.

[Kai]

I'm confused why we're talking about Donald Trump.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because we're talking about immigration policy in 2026, and Donald Trump is the President of the United States. That's why. Why is it that he gives full citizenship and grants asylum to 100 white people from South Africa? I don't know.

[Kai]

You guys should have him on the show. But I'm right here. At the end of the day, we're

[Brian Shapiro]

talking about immigration policy.

[Kai]

What does that have to do with Donald Trump?

[Brian Shapiro]

Because I believe a lot of this is the color of their skin. Our policies right now, the President of

[Kai]

the United States uk If we were in Russia, my policy position would be exactly identical. Cuz it's based on political.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why won't you address that though? Why won't you answer that?

[Kai]

I'll answer right now. I think it's wrong. I think Donald Trump generally when it comes to immigration policy has made a lot of blunders and mistakes.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think it's attacks on people for being brown. I think a part of Trump's policy. I'm not saying you believe in this. Trump's policy is attacking brown people and treating them very different than white people. I repeat, 50 people from South Africa he granted asylum to, they're 100%.

[Kai]

One reason. I see no reason to engage with Trump hypotheticals when I'm not a Trump.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's not a hypothetical. It happened.

[Kai]

Okay, well, I see no reason to engage with Trump based moral dilemmas when I'm not a Trump supporter.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. I didn't say you were a Trump supporter. We're talking because this is immigration policy in 2026.

[Kai]

Is invading Ukraine right now. Is that good or bad?

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, he started a war. Of course it's bad.

[Kai]

See how it's inside, right? It doesn't matter.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's irrelevant. You're comparing somebody who starts a war and kills people.

[Kai]

Let's focus on the policy.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but you're, you're, you're, you're making an analogy to somebody that they're responsible for killing a bunch of innocent people. Most immigrants. Would you agree with me? Most. Can we at least agree on this?

[Kai]

Making an analogy to the fact that Trump is completely unrelated to this conversation,

[Brian Shapiro]

but he, he creates immigration policy right now. Okay. What's going on in this country?

[Kai]

Am I Donald Trump?

[Brian Shapiro]

I didn't say. I can't ask you any questions about Donald Trump.

[Kai]

You can, but I'm not going to answer him.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why?

[Kai]

Because it doesn't matter. Because I'm not a Trump supporter.

[Brian Shapiro]

I didn't say you were a Trump supporter.

[Kai]

Then what is the point? Point?

[Brian Shapiro]

Because we're talking about immigration. We're living under Donald Trump's regime.

[Kai]

About political theory. I'm talking about policy.

[Brian Shapiro]

All right, well, let's focus on policy. I like to focus on what's going on in the country right now. I bet that if right now that

[Kai]

we could sit down for an hour, I'd be happy to do it. And we would say I mean bad. I agree.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm here to talk about what's going on in the country right now.

[Kai]

Exactly. But what.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because that's what I do for a living.

[Kai]

Should be going on is mass deportations. I won't talk about that. And they're not going on because as you've said, Trump has been failing in many, many ways. So when we talk about the problems, rule of law is extremely integral rule. When rule of law degrades, nations degrade. It is one of, if not the best indicator for things like the fall of Rome, the fall of civilizations. It is an amazing indicator. And the thing is, when you're looking at mass deportations, obviously we're juxtaposing that to codification. What does codification do?

[Brian Shapiro]

Can I just. I'm sorry to interrupt you.

[Kai]

Of course you can interrupt.

[Brian Shapiro]

And then I, I. You have the floor. Okay. We're talking about immigration. I understand you. You are for mass deportation. Okay, fine. I'm happy to have that conversation with you. I really am, because I think you're coming from the right place. I think both of you are. But my job and what I do for a living, besides having these debates, which I enjoy, is talking about the news of the last 24 hours, the news of the last week, the last month, who is making immigration policy. That's what we're talking about. My disagreements on the policies right now in general. I understand what you're saying. You're talking year four mass deportation. Okay, fine. We could have, like I said, we could have a conversation about that. Trump is the reason why Renee Goode and Alex Preddy are dead. Trump is the reason why we have a bunch of goons that are. That when it comes to immigration and ICE agents that are not qualified to be in those positions. Trump is the reason why there are immigrants everywhere, all over this country, even legal immigrants, that are scared, that are afraid. The intimidation by this administration. Again, I understand you want mass deportation. You know what I want? I want people treated in this country as human beings. I don't see these people as bad people. I see the majority of them as very good people. That's why I don't want mass deportations. That's why I don't want one of the whitest regimes in American history. And I'm going back to Trump. And I know both of you are not Trump supporters. I get that. I'm not saying you are. But this goes to immigration, his saying, or whatever you would like to call it, Make America great again. That's not what makes America great.

[Kai]

Great.

[Brian Shapiro]

We were founded on immigrants. What makes America great are diversity. People from all sorts of different backgrounds, every color in the crayon box. Diversity. It was never about make America great. Again, it was Make America white again. That's why I'm against mass deportations. The overwhelming majority of these people, brown people that are treated differently in this country by the Trump administration than people that look like you and me. I have a problem with his policy. I know you want to talk about, in general terms, immigration, but I am extremely anti Donald Trump. I hate what happened in Minneapolis. I hate what's going on in this country right now and the attacks on immigrants. So in general terms, that's why I disagree with you when it comes to mass deportation in general.

[Kai]

Wait, hold on. First off, Donald Trump's still not in the room. He can't hear us.

[Brian Shapiro]

That doesn't mean we can't talk about him just because he's not in the room. I don't understand that, though.

[Kai]

We're debating my mass immigration, which.

[Brian Shapiro]

And Donald Trump is the president of the United States and he makes immigration policy here.

[Kai]

He would also be on the opposite side of me. I wouldn't be agreeing with him. So I don't know why we're talking about him at all.

[Jackson]

Can I, can I jump in?

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Kai]

But, but, but on top of that, I want to say also the strategy. I, I know the strategy. We throw out a bunch of points a, in rapid succession with hopes that I'll disagree with one of them, and then we'll go into a nuanced debate about Trump, which is what you really want to talk about. I'm not going to entertain that. And we're not going to talk about Trump. I want to talk about the policy of why I agree and, or disagree

[Brian Shapiro]

with policies of what are just in general, our policies. When it comes to create a policy,

[Kai]

as in, like, how a government should be behaving in relation to a problem.

[Jackson]

And what I just wanted to jump in and say, it's like, we're not trying to obfuscate. We're not trying to lead you down like a dialogue tree. What we're coming at this from is, look, if tomorrow JD Vance or Marco Rubio was president and they supported mass deportations, I mean, we believe you would still be against mass deportations regardless of who the president is. Your immigration prescription would probably be the same.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think there's, there's certainly a better way to go about than just deport every single person in this country that's undocumented. I don't think. I'm not perfect. With respect, I'm not sure you guys understand. Let's get back how negative that would be to our economy.

[Kai]

But I Want to keep talking about the rule of law degradation. Yeah, I agree, Brian. Flat out on the board, every single person who's committed a crime, treated equally, all people treated equally. I'm a big believer in that. But if we're talking about mass deportations, the problem is that we're not in evacuate. We're not in a vacuum of deport or do nothing. We're in a vacuum of, as we said, we're not going to do nothing. That's wrong. So we have to codify them, make them legal or deport them. Making them legal is extremely immoral by both of our standards, I would assume. And I can talk about why.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why is making somebody a legal citizen immoral?

[Kai]

Well, there's multiple reasons, but I can go through them all. So initially, when you talk about codification, we talk about the benefits. Earlier you mentioned how they're working jobs that Americans won't work. They're helping the economy. Firstly, I want to alienate this problem. We have a very, very long, extensive wait list for immigrants to the United States. Every single problem that is solved by illegal immigrants, aside from the ones that are solved because they operate as a slave class, would be equally, if not greater solved, actually fully, I can just say greater solved by legal immigrants. So if we're talking about this button of deporting people, that's irrelevant. If we need the 20 million people, we can let 20 million in legally, which are vetted and it will solve all economic problems. So I want to alienate the economic issues.

[Brian Shapiro]

You.

[Kai]

They don't help us economically in relation to legal immigrants, which we have an excess of.

[Brian Shapiro]

There's a lot of studies that could tell you that undocumented. And I could, I could source those, that undocumented. Undocumented immigrants in this country do actually benefit us and benefit the economy more so than you would. You would know that.

[Kai]

Do you know why, though?

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, there's a lot of different reasons for that. Sometimes they're working for very low wages. Sometimes they're working. Sometimes they're willing to do jobs that the average American citizen is not willing to do. There's a lot. There's a lot of different reasons.

[Kai]

Because I can tell you why.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's because it saves people money, because

[Kai]

they're a slave point class.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't want people.

[Kai]

They pay into Social Security and they can't get it back.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't want people treat jobs below the minimum wage.

[Kai]

So it's unethical.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't want people treated as slaves. I don't want people taken Advantage of. Okay. I'm just giving you reasons why it does benefit the economy. Oh, it does?

[Kai]

Slaves benefit the economy, too.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well, yeah, obviously I'm not pro slavery, but why not?

[Kai]

Why?

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't like people being taken advantage

[Jackson]

of, but it's incredibly economically efficient in some cases.

[Brian Shapiro]

Undocumented immigrants are efficient in certain areas where they're not being treated as slaves or being used. You know, is it underneath the table? Sure. I know you don't want to talk about Trump, but he has employed a lot of people in his lifetime that have been undocumented at Mar a Lago, and that's good.

[Jackson]

It's labor abuse.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes. It depends on the circumstance. If you're paying someone a really good salary, but you're paying them under the table, I wouldn't necessarily call that abuse.

[Kai]

I would always call abuse.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well, I would hang in Social Security.

[Kai]

They can't get it back out. That's abuse. We agree that as a city, there

[Brian Shapiro]

are some undocumented immigrants that do pay taxes. Blood it or not, they do.

[Jackson]

That's what he's talking about.

[Brian Shapiro]

They pay him.

[Kai]

They get no benefits.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's like a slave.

[Kai]

Like a slave.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't want. But it goes back in a circular motion to what I said. I believe there is a better pathway. Let's talk about it when you just. You just want to. Doc, you just want to. You just want. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you just want everybody that's undocumented to be deported. Right now, we are everybody.

[Kai]

Right now we are focusing on the young adult male who has came here, doesn't have kids, doesn't have a wife.

[Brian Shapiro]

Do you want everybody undocumented in this country to be deported? If you can snap the finger and do it tomorrow, leave their children here, leave their families here.

[Jackson]

Because you don't.

[Brian Shapiro]

What do you. What's your feeling about anchor baby?

[Kai]

So there's variability in it. I think that some of the solutions offered by DACA were preferable to just deporting people. Blanket. But in general, that's a policy area that I think has a lot of gray area and would be better solved by specific experts in the field of immigration. But I can say I'm not for blanket deportation of every single child who's here or every single parent who is here. However, I think the greater problem, what I'd like to reach is the common ground on. Because we can agree at levels like this maybe should be an exception. This maybe should be an exception. I don't want to focus on that. I want to focus on the issue of should we deport what most people are, which is just people here illegally? And I think we should. And I want to talk about why. So codification, obviously, we've agreed that keeping them all and doing nothing will not help. We've agreed that illegal immigrants, they can help the economy. They do. The only ways they can help it is through being either a slave or through being a legal immigrant who doesn't get benefits back. So it's pointless all of the problems.

[Brian Shapiro]

You agree with me, though, that if you're born in this country and one of your parents is an undocumented immigrant, you should still be considered a legal citizen.

[Kai]

I'm waiting for the Supreme Court ruling on that, but currently it seems as though it will probably rule in your favor.

[Jackson]

What's your.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but regardless of the Supreme Court, what's your opinion on that?

[Kai]

My opinion on statutes. It should be interpreted by the United States Supreme Court.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you don't have an opinion. Just let the Supreme Court off of morality of it.

[Kai]

Because you talk about the morality of birthright citizenship. It's a really complex topic. I don't want to go, too.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you're not sure whether Barron Trump is a legal citizen.

[Jackson]

Well, hold on.

[Kai]

What does that do with anything?

[Brian Shapiro]

We're talking about anchor babies.

[Jackson]

Sure.

[Kai]

If he's legal, it's that you aren't sure either.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because I'm. I'm asking you your opinion. No, I'm very clear on this. Yes, I think. Yes. I'm answering my own question immediately.

[Kai]

Sure. Because it hasn't been ruled on the spot.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. I don't care. I'm not giving you my opinion on the Supreme Court.

[Kai]

You talk about legality.

[Brian Shapiro]

Supreme Court also overturned Roe versus Wade. I think it's a joke. Okay.

[Kai]

That's unrelevant. Okay. You talk about legality.

[Brian Shapiro]

No.

[Kai]

You're talking about Baron Trope here. Legally, that has nothing. Is Baron Trump here? Legally, that has nothing to do with. With.

[Brian Shapiro]

I personally believe that if you're born in this country and one of your parents is undocumented, you are a legal US American citizen.

[Jackson]

Hold on.

[Brian Shapiro]

You can believe.

[Jackson]

Hold on. Do you believe. Do you believe that it should be or that you are. Because, you know, both of us will agree. Of course you are. Given the current law.

[Kai]

Yeah.

[Jackson]

Do you believe that it should stay that way? Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes.

[Kai]

Before we get into the weeds, I want to go back to the issue of the illegal immigration, because I feel like we're. We're constantly getting dragged away, and I think it's a very straightforward problem. The problem is what I consider to be unjust or immoral is something that rewards bad behavior and punishes good behavior. A system where it makes it to where people who should be here are here instead, and also they're placed in the position through immoral means. So, you know, talking like, you know, we have a duty to do things a certain way. That's why I agree with you about the methods of deportation being wrong. No amount of good results can justify evil or bad behavior. I agree that we're seeing some level of bad behavior through our current deportation procedures, but we have to say is the direction we're moving in. Correct. And I think it is. And the reason why is because if you talk about codification, codification, first off, it hurts the rule of law, which we talked about, has very negligible or not negligible, very intense effects on a government. And it's a large subversion of rule of law because it would be upwards of 20 million people who are codified. That's a very large amount of rule of law violation that we only have a country of like, 380 million people. So it's a significant portion of our population is only here because of a rule of law violation. But in addition, we talk about hurting people who are good and helping people who do wrong. If you look towards codification, codification. If you are a immigrant in Mexico, you're a person in Mexico and you want to come to America.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Kai]

There's two immigrants. We cannot let in every immigrant from Mexico. I think we can agree on this.

[Brian Shapiro]

Right. Can I just ask you something of what you just said, just to respond to something? You really think we're headed in the right direction?

[Kai]

I mean, like, as a policy, we're heading the right direction. But no, not. I don't believe I'm saying deportation. Better than not deportation, but actually bad, bad deportation.

[Brian Shapiro]

I know you don't like. I know you don't like talking in general terms about Trump.

[Kai]

I'm saying that deciding to.

[Brian Shapiro]

Let me be very clear.

[Kai]

Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm just going to make a very clear statement here on everything that's going on in this country right now.

[Kai]

Yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

I believe for the most part, everything, including what you're talking about right now, now I feel like we're heading in the wrong direction.

[Kai]

I actually agree on most of that. Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

We could talk about the economy. We could talk about immigration.

[Kai]

Ryan, what does the economy have to do with this?

[Brian Shapiro]

Brian, we're talking about the economy has a lot to do with immigration.

[Kai]

Okay, okay. Well, we. We've just talked about that issue, and I just nullified the point.

[Brian Shapiro]

I just. I just disagree with you. When you said you think we're heading in the right direction, I couldn't disagree with you.

[Kai]

Allow me to clarify.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay.

[Kai]

When I say head in the right direction, I believe that the universal position that mass deportations are not good is worse than the universal position that nasty rotations are good. That's what I'm saying. But back to the issue. It rewards the unjust and hurts the just. There's two people. As we agree, we cannot take all immigrants from Mexico, or at least we won't. Right. So there's two people in Mexico. One person waits in the immigration waiting list for 10 years. They sit there and they try and get in, and they don't get in. Unfortunately, that happens. And even if they did get in, they had to wait 10 years. Another immigrant hops the border illegally or flies in, overstays his visas with most people, and that immigrant is rewarded with codification down the road due to your ideal policy. Decision. Decision. What that does is it means that the good man in Mexico who waited is hurt and the bad man in Mexico who came over the border illegally is helped.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Kai]

Is that not the textbook definition of unjustice and immorality?

[Brian Shapiro]

I. I think you can make that argument. I think there's a lot of immoral, you know, stuff going that you could. You can go around it. We just fundamentally disagree. I do agree with what you're saying to an extent that, you know, there should be rewards for people that have been in this country undocumented. But, you know, maybe some sort of pathway if you haven't committed a, you know, a violent crime, you have a family here. I really, truly believe it should be a case by case basis.

[Kai]

There's a pathway decision.

[Brian Shapiro]

I understand that, but here's the problem. And again, I know you don't like general terms here, but here's where I go with this. There's. And by the way, I'm not even a registered Democrat, but I will tell you this. There is one party that is making it as difficult as possible for people to come to this country legally. And you hear MAGA Republicans particularly, maybe not Republicans, maga, Republicans, Republicans say in general terms, we want people coming in here the right way. We don't care what you look like. Oh, really? Then why is it when Democrats put bills forth in Congress to try to make the pathway to citizenship a little bit easier, like not 10 to 15 years, Republicans always vote against It. So I think many of these Republicans in D.C. are liars. Make. Here's where I would agree with both of you. Are you ready for this?

[Kai]

I'm ready.

[Brian Shapiro]

I would be okay with mass deportation to an extent, if becoming a legal citizen was much easier. It didn't take 10 or 15 years.

[Kai]

Okay. Why?

[Brian Shapiro]

You think you're okay with 10 or 15 years?

[Kai]

No, no, that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking, why would that change your position on the immoral policy of codification?

[Brian Shapiro]

Because the reason. Hold on. Because the reason why so many people are seeking asylum and so many people come to this country and they're not documented is because it's almost virtually impossible for them to come to this country legally. Those that are trying to seek asylum, those that are coming to other countries, in many cases, not all, they have no choice. Or at least they feel like they have no choice.

[Jackson]

Yeah.

[Kai]

Well, these are unrelated points, though, because we're talking about mass deportation.

[Brian Shapiro]

But I'm telling you, if in any aspect I could agree with mass deportation, then I would need both parties to come together and say, you know what? It shouldn't take 15 years for a nonviolent criminal, somebody who's educated, a decent human being, to come to this country legally. They shouldn't have to wait 10 or 15 years if they're seeking asylum and they followed the law, which you guys want people to follow. Okay, great. Let's be consistent. They followed the law from Mexico and they're seeking asylum, and grandmothers are getting tackled outside of courtrooms.

[Kai]

These positions are fundamentally unrelated, but it's

[Brian Shapiro]

immigration we're talking about, and we're talking about mass deportation. And I'm telling you why. I could agree with you if this stuff wasn't happening in this country right now. A lot of my opinions tied to Donald Trump.

[Kai]

Brian, I have a question.

[Jackson]

Yes? Yeah.

[Kai]

If it was easier. Do you believe that cocaine should only be illegal if it was easier for people to rise up through tax brackets?

[Brian Shapiro]

You're comparing taking an illegal drug that kills people?

[Kai]

No, no, no. Okay. You're not. I'm not comparing that. I'm comparing the fact that because people are incentivized to break the law, that absolutely changes no amount of how they should be treated for breaking the law. So it's irrelevant.

[Jackson]

And even that.

[Kai]

So I don't want to talk about illegal drugs.

[Brian Shapiro]

To me, it's not irrelevant. And I would say that. That again, I know you didn't mean it this way, but comparing a drug that is illegal, that kills People is very different than talking about many of these people. Undocumented immigrants that are good human beings that don't want to harm you. Don't want to harm me. So I think that's a very poor analogy. With respect, I agree that the illegals

[Kai]

are not the bad people in this area. I mean, they're making them.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, they needed to talk to a lot of MAGA Republicans in this country.

[Kai]

Where is maga's not in the room. We need to have like, Maggie in the corner tonight. Yes or no?

[Brian Shapiro]

If you're talking about.

[Kai]

Is he. I can't find him.

[Brian Shapiro]

If you're talking about immigration, you have to be able to talk about the Trump administration.

[Jackson]

Brian, is your opinion of immigration going to change after Trump's out of office?

[Brian Shapiro]

I think the policies will change.

[Jackson]

Is your opinion about what the policy should be going to change when Trump is out of office?

[Brian Shapiro]

Depends who takes over. Depends who takes over and what their position.

[Jackson]

So your opinions about what a policy should be depends entirely on Trump's president.

[Brian Shapiro]

If Trump's policies. If we're specifically talking about the way he's handling.

[Jackson]

No, no, we're talking about what the immigration law be.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. By the way, I understand you already

[Jackson]

in this debate have made a normative claim about what law should be. You did this about birthright citizenship. You were able to say, well, right now it's legal. Well, hold on. That's, that's. Again, we're talking about normative claims. We're not talking about a descript, a descriptive claim of what the law is. You said you believe that birthright citizenship should be the law. We all agree that it is the law.

[Brian Shapiro]

It is the law right now. I don't think it should change. Perfect.

[Jackson]

That is the claim. You don't believe it should change.

[Kai]

Yeah.

[Jackson]

If there was a different president, your opinion on that issue shouldn't change. As long as your opinions are heartfelt.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why does it change? I don't understand what you're.

[Jackson]

It shouldn't.

[Kai]

That's the point.

[Jackson]

We're, we're saying that your immigration opinions should not depend solely on who is the president. They should be universal, which means that you should be able to respond to

[Brian Shapiro]

the questions that he's asking, which I am. But the policies would change under a different president.

[Kai]

That's true. We all know that's true.

[Brian Shapiro]

But. Yeah.

[Kai]

So I want to go back into the issues here. So talking about codification, you agreed that codification is immortal moral a minute ago.

[Brian Shapiro]

It depends on the circumstance. Give me an example, and then let's Talk about it.

[Kai]

Example, there's a man in Mexico who wants to come in legally. He's doing all the precautions. He's now violating our sovereignty. He gets denied or he gets accepted. Let's say we accept everyone from Mexico. He gets accepted, but it takes him even two years. Even if we reduced it, like you were saying, that's two years of waiting time.

[Brian Shapiro]

Where he's in Mexico, two years is better than 15. So he's not seeking asylum or he is unrelated.

[Kai]

He's trying to immigrate.

[Brian Shapiro]

Did he fill out the necessary paperwork that the government asked you?

[Kai]

Yeah, he just filled out the paperwork.

[Brian Shapiro]

Took him two years to get through.

[Jackson]

Okay, so it's.

[Kai]

Then we're saying okay, but. So then there's another man who flies in illegally, overstays his visa, violates our sovereignty. Whether he's an evil man, I don't hate the guy, but obviously that's not the right thing to do. And now he's rewarded. So what we've done is we've created a system that rewards bad behavior and punishes good behavior. And there's many more examples where immigration codification policies are extremely immoral.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, you could also make the argument that there are laws in the United States of America sometimes that are immoral as well. But going back to what you just said, if you're seeking asylum from Mexico and you filled out the proper paperwork, the law says not asylum.

[Kai]

You want to immigrate.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but. But I use the term asylum, and I thought that's what we were referring to. It is illegal for us to deport somebody like that if they filled out the proper paperwork and they're seeking asylum. That was why I was bringing up Donald Trump. Because they're breaking the law.

[Kai]

Yeah. I want to focus. I want to avoid asylum. Obviously, there's tricky issues with the asylum system, wherein, like, you can claim economic

[Brian Shapiro]

asylum, but what I just said is not tricky. Can we just agree on that?

[Kai]

Wait, what was your statement?

[Brian Shapiro]

If you're seeking asylum and you filled out the proper paperwork, it is illegal for our government to deport you.

[Kai]

I think that's the statute.

[Brian Shapiro]

I mean, either way, doesn't that bother you?

[Kai]

What does what bother me?

[Brian Shapiro]

That they're ripping up parts of our Constitution and they're arresting people outside of.

[Kai]

I mean, yeah, my argument's rule of law based. Any rule of law violation.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, so. So it bothers you that the Trump administration is breaking the law?

[Kai]

Yeah, I haven't looked in that specific scenario, but if that's illegal, yeah, that

[Brian Shapiro]

would bother Me, I'm surprised you don't know that.

[Kai]

Well, I mean, for me at least, I don't focus on.

[Brian Shapiro]

This is a very important issue for

[Kai]

you focus on every single thing that Trump does. Because generally I look at his policy positions, I disagree with his actions here. I don't need to look for every single thing I disagree with.

[Brian Shapiro]

But this is immigration specifically. I understand what you're saying. You're not going to know every policy or agree or disagree. I understand that.

[Kai]

Yeah.

[Jackson]

But specifically you are.

[Kai]

It seemed to be correct, that statement. But either. Anyway, moving on to the morality of it, as we're saying laws should be moral, laws should be just. They should be good and just.

[Brian Shapiro]

We agree on that in general. Yes, of course.

[Kai]

You serve the American citizens. Absolutely, yes. So then why is it that we're having a law which makes it to where people get rewarded for doing bad and hurt for doing good?

[Brian Shapiro]

I, I don't agree with being rewarded from quote unquote doing something bad. At the same time, you'd have to define bad. You know, I can define that. Okay. Well, there are certain situations where technically it might be against the law to do something, but I wouldn't necessarily. Let me give you an example. American citizen can't put food on the table, doesn't have food stamps, kids are starving. I don't condone people that shoplift. It's against the law. But I understand, I understand why somebody who's basically homeless, who needs to put food on the table for his kids, might go into a supermarket, might steal a sandwich. I'm not condoning it. I'm not going to give that person a high five. But I understand moral. Would you say good?

[Jackson]

Hold on.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's against the law.

[Kai]

Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

Is it bad?

[Kai]

Wait, yeah. The law doesn't mean bad. But would you call that moral?

[Brian Shapiro]

I think when you have no other option, and there are some people in this country that are in that position where they have no other option, they don't even have a food pantry and they need to provide a meal for their kids and they might steal $10 worth of food. Would I call that immoral? Not necessarily, no.

[Kai]

So the ends justify the means.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't think it's immoral.

[Kai]

You said they do that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. There are certain things that people do are bad.

[Kai]

So maybe this is where the immigration discrepancy comes from. Because as with the ends justify the means, which I see to be immoral. I believe that we have a duty based ethics. Things have to be done a certain way. It's not right for the poor man to steal just because he really, really needs to. He needs to do things the proper way. Way. Same way.

[Brian Shapiro]

Have you ever been in a situation like that?

[Kai]

Me personally, I mean, where I'm have to do something?

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm sorry if I'm being personal.

[Kai]

That would be irrelevant to my moral.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, it's very relevant and I'll explain why. And I'm sorry if I'm being personal. Do you come from a family of means? Do you have money?

[Kai]

Oh, yeah, I do.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. Okay, so you come from a wealthy family.

[Kai]

Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you have no idea what it's like to be starving.

[Kai]

No, but that's irrelevant.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, it's extreme. No, it's extremely relevant. No, with respect, it's extremely relevant when people shoulds.

[Kai]

Ought, claims and want claims are opposite. They're not identical.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, with respect, you don't know what it's like to not know where your next meal is coming from.

[Kai]

What does not knowing where my next

[Brian Shapiro]

meal come from because you haven't been in. This is my whole argument here. You don't know what it's like to be in their shoes.

[Kai]

That doesn't mean what. Okay, this is like a philosophy disagreement. I don't believe that you can say that a moral statement is founded entirely based off of. In their shoes, moral statements are across the board for everyone because.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but hold on a second. You don't. You're saying it's immoral for somebody that is starving and their family is starving for a man of the household to steal food. Now, I admit it is illegal, but you are making a case for that. And the point that I am trying to make to you is you've never been in that situation before. You don't have any life experience. As far as struggling, you've admitted self. Admitted that you come from a family of means and you will probably never know what it's like to be in that position. It's called. But it's called empathy.

[Kai]

No, it's not. It's called immorality. Brian, I have a question.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's immorality.

[Kai]

Have you ever murdered someone?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I've never, not to my knowledge,

[Kai]

ever really, really wanted to murder someone.

[Brian Shapiro]

No. Maybe in debates. Maybe in debates then.

[Kai]

You don't understand what it's like, Brian. It's like no morality.

[Brian Shapiro]

So hold on, hold on, hold on. Stop, stop, stop. You're comparing somebody ending somebody's life. You're, you're, you're. With respect. No, but your, your, your analogies are insane, Brian.

[Kai]

No, it's not Brian, Insane. Brian, have you ever had a philosophy like. You ever had a moral dilemma? Brian, if I offered you.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm having a moral dilemma right now.

[Kai]

Brian, if I offered you. Brian, if I offered you the trolley problem, would you say you're comparing my choice to do this to hitting people with a train?

[Brian Shapiro]

Listen, listen. You're comparing.

[Kai]

It's a dilemma for the purpose of how psycho.

[Brian Shapiro]

But I have more respect for people that have been in that dilemma. You've never experienced this. I know you don't care. And I get the sense that you don't care about people that are struggling in this country. Well, that's because I'm getting the sense that you don't, quite frankly.

[Kai]

I care, Brian. I care about you. And that's why I want your country to have just laws so it doesn't collapse.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's not my country. It's our country. That's number one. And number two, first of all, comparing murder to somebody that needs to steal a loaf of bread to put food on the table for their family is saying, you know, hold on.

[Kai]

The point is you use hyperbole and ethical dilemmas in order to illustrate the fact that a point.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, you did. You said it was bad. That's where this.

[Kai]

As an individual in search of ethical.

[Brian Shapiro]

You are defining what is bad. Okay? Just because you break the law and you, you make a mistake. There are some circumstances where somebody might break the law. For example, if somebody is caught speeding because they're with someone in the car that is dying. I wouldn't necessarily call that bad.

[Kai]

Yeah, Brian, obviously, obviously, morality and the law are separate. Like, obviously, obviously. Okay, In Nazi Germany.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why do you think it's bad? Why do you think it's immoral and bad for somebody who is struggling in this country, who has no money, who has children and needs to put food on the table, and they have no other option but to steal 20 worth of food. I admit it's illegal. I wish they wouldn't do it. But why is that so immoral and bad when you've never been in a situation like that before and you don't know what that situation is?

[Kai]

Brian, I'm what you call a deontologist. I believe that when we talk about ethics, we have a duty to do things a certain way. The outcome, while we should be striving for a better outcome, is irrelevant to the goodness of the action. Well, it has relevancy, but it's not the decider of the goodness of the action. So a good example is if you talk about, like Mass genocide or mass murder. Obviously this is a hyperbole example. I'm not trying to, you know, trap you in a false, like, portrayal of your ideas, but this is where I see problems with the end justify the means. A lot of people, when they're debating people who believe in mass genocide, the argument comes down to, well, it wouldn't have fixed your problems. I don't choose to go there. I always say, well, regardless of what you are doing, if an action is wrong, even if it has the greatest of outcomes, it is still wrong. Which is why I can say that we have a duty to do things a certain way. The poor man, yes, it would be nice for him to have food. It would be good. And I think that actually, as an American, I have a duty to give him my money if I see him and he needs food. However, duty to give is far different from privilege to take. Just because someone has a. Just because we have a duty to help someone.

[Brian Shapiro]

Someone.

[Kai]

If I have a duty. So if you're homeless and I feel that I have a Christian or atheist or whatever moral system we have, I feel that I have a moral duty to bring you to my house, let you sleep on my couch. However, that does not mean that you have the privilege to enter my house and sleep on my couch.

[Brian Shapiro]

I would never say that somebody, because they're undocumented or homeless, that you have to have them in your home. I would never make that statement.

[Kai]

I would say that you should help people.

[Jackson]

I'm not in their home.

[Brian Shapiro]

But this is funny.

[Kai]

If there was the duty.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but I know you're religious as well.

[Kai]

Yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. And Kai. Yes, sir? Do you agree with me that when somebody has no money, they have a family and they have no other option, okay. Than to go into a supermarket or. And steal 10, $15 while it is illegal, obviously I wouldn't attack that person or call them bad or immoral. Yeah.

[Jackson]

So I 100% get what you're saying. The problem is that's not the case that either of us have made this entire debate.

[Brian Shapiro]

Debate.

[Jackson]

The entire time we have been talking about whether or not the system that you believe in or the system that we believe in, deportation, or just codifying or naturalizing everybody, whether that is moral or just.

[Kai]

Right.

[Jackson]

We have never said all of these illegal immigrants are, you know, evil people and they're coming here for all the wrong reasons. Most of them are here because they think they could make more money here. And I appreciate their families and improve.

[Brian Shapiro]

I appreciate the fact that you said that. Yes.

[Kai]

Nonetheless.

[Jackson]

Nonetheless, Even, even if they have the best of motives, that doesn't justify, you know, doing a bunch of things that would be destructive to the morality of the country. Just like, you know, codifying all of them, naturalizing all of them.

[Brian Shapiro]

And then.

[Jackson]

Okay, so I'm a priority to evil.

[Brian Shapiro]

I disagree with you when you say you think it's destructive for the morality of the country.

[Jackson]

Well, that, that's what you two were talking about.

[Kai]

Yeah. Well, because you agreed. Well, firstly, you agree that codification is an immoral policy, correct?

[Brian Shapiro]

I guess so, yeah.

[Kai]

Okay. Do you. So then, I mean, if that's an immoral policy, wouldn't immoral policy implementation be bad? Because the purpose of policy, as you outlined earlier, is to be moral.

[Brian Shapiro]

And just, just so I want our laws to be moral, obviously. I want our leadership people to be moral. I want people to have character. I want people to have empathy. Of course, the whole nine yards there.

[Jackson]

And we agree on all that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, but, but, but the problem I have, and again, I keep up using the word consistency and I believe that what is going on in this country right now, and this is a problem. I think we both could agree way before you guys were born, I'm old. God, I'm old. I'm like, add your, your, both your ages. I'm still probably older than you guys. That's really sad. But I'm an old man. But the point I'm trying to make is for decades we've had this issue, right? I think we both could agree on that. We've had immigration issues for decades. George W. Bush did a woefully terrible job dealing with immigration. I'll be the first one to admit Joe Biden did not do a good job either. They failed from an immigration standpoint. I'm not going to sit here like some people on the left do, and, and, and defend Joe Biden when it comes to immigration policy. No, they did not do a good job, period. I don't think Trump's doing a good job either. Sure, they've deported a lot of people, but what good is it, in my opinion, when they're going about it the wrong way? Thought Obama did a pretty damn good job considering the circumstances.

[Kai]

Can we focus on the descriptor of if we should do it before we talk about how we should do it? Because I believe that I have a solution to that problem as well.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, like I said, I don't necessarily believe in mass deportation. We obviously fund. We fundamentally disagree on that.

[Kai]

But let's hammer it in on that because it's not opinions don't come out of the ether, and they live in your heart. They're in our brain. So let's talk about why you agree to me that codification is immoral. That's the only option other than mass deportation, which isn't doing nothing, which you also agreed is immoral. So in that scenario, why I don't

[Brian Shapiro]

think we should do nothing.

[Kai]

Under what circumstance should we implement a policy which is immoral? Can you name any circumstances?

[Brian Shapiro]

What if I said we should implement a policy that's immoral?

[Kai]

You said you don't believe in doing a nothing. You believe in codification.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, I think we should help people. Why would I say we should do nothing?

[Kai]

Because you believe the codification is immoral. As we talked about earlier, under what circumstance, in any legal precedent, should we do something that is legally. Should we implement a law that we agree is immoral?

[Brian Shapiro]

I think, first of all, when we talk about law in general, it doesn't mean I agree with every judge, doesn't mean I agree with every law. Do I want people to abide by the laws in general terms? Yeah, of course I do. But I also think there are exceptions to the rule, and I also think that there are people, regardless of whether they are breaking the law or not. We have to go to motive, we have to go to why they're doing this. We have to go to how they got here. So should.

[Kai]

Why should. Because this is a legal measure. In the scenario, it's nothing. It's amending the law. You're making a positive claim. In this scenario, I'm not making a positive claim. So in this scenario, I'm trying to argue against codification. So if we're talking about codification in

[Brian Shapiro]

what, why are you against it? Tell me.

[Kai]

I'm against it because I think it's immoral, as I said before.

[Brian Shapiro]

Tell me why.

[Kai]

I think it rewards injustice and hurts people who are just. There's a lot more reasons that we haven't even gotten into yet. In addition, I believe that all of.

[Brian Shapiro]

How is it unjust?

[Kai]

Tell me it's unjust because people in Mexico who wanted to come here legally and then people in America who wanted to, or people in Mexico who came here illegally, the person who came here illegally gets the reward, and the person who came here legally or tried to come here legally gets the negative side of that going.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, obviously, it's the definition of justice.

[Jackson]

Things.

[Brian Shapiro]

So. So things are right again. And that goes to my opinions on why things need to change a little bit. And, and. And if you I understand the argument that if you come to this country the legal way and you had to wait 10 or 15 years, there's probably a lot of people that would say, well, wait a second, why did I have to wait 10 or 15 years? And why are you rewarding people that have come to this country illegally? I understand that argument, but it goes to another argument. You know, I remember when Joe Biden want to do student debt forgiveness and I heard a lot of people complaining about it that had gone to college that had, you know, paid off their student debt or continuing to pay it off. And they said, well, why should I have to suffer when they don't have to suffer? In my personal opinion, laws change, things change for the better of the people.

[Kai]

Wait, I have a question. Do you think that policy was moral or immoral?

[Brian Shapiro]

I think it was absolutely moral. Absolutely moral.

[Kai]

10 of people get their loans for forgive.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. I think it's moral. And I think, I think, I think, I think, I think here's why. Okay, first of all, I'll give another example. How about during COVID during the PPE loans, you had a bunch of Republicans and Democrats that got all these loans from private business. Guess what? They didn't have to pay those loans back. But that was totally okay for them to not have to pay off their loans to the government. But these are some of the same people and I've talked to some of these people that argue you about student loan debt forgiveness. So why is it that it was okay for you, who owns a private business during COVID to not have to pay back your loans to the government, but if you're somebody going to school, somebody in their 20s that's struggling to get a job, no, you should have to suffer. It is hypocrisy. Again, I think most people on the right are hypocrites.

[Kai]

How is it that we are able to. Whenever I'm evaluating policy.

[Brian Shapiro]

Do you agree with what I just said or.

[Kai]

That would be hypocritical. I think in some ways that'd be hypocritical. Yeah. But if we're evaluating, if we're evaluating, PPE loans are a little bit different because obviously you're trying to stimulate the economy while student loan forgiveness has a

[Brian Shapiro]

different incentive if you go to college.

[Kai]

I argue that regardless of incentives, if

[Brian Shapiro]

you go to college, if you go to college to get your degree, you would think that would stimulate the economy as well because you're going to probably get a job and you're going to be paying taxes so you can make the absolutely same argument would be helping

[Kai]

people who've been to the past.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why is it immoral to help people that are struggling? I don't understand.

[Kai]

So I believe that whenever you're evaluating policy, you're making a big mistake. Pretty readily where you evaluate policy comparatively, you say, well this thing happens, so it should be like this. I don't think think that way. I have what's called first principles. So I believe that some things are good, some things are bad. And there's a lot of reasons that we can probably both find for that reason. So. And I'm talking about student loan forgiveness. I don't think student loan forgiveness is bad because we shouldn't be forgiving student loans. In fact, actually I think there's good arguments for broad student loan forgiveness. However, if only 10% of the society had their loans forgive, and if it's not arbitrary, then I actually retract from what I understand, it was arbitrary.

[Brian Shapiro]

Do you know why only 10%?

[Kai]

Why?

[Brian Shapiro]

Take a guess. Republicans fought it. They fought it to high end. What Joe Biden was trying to do was try to make it universal. He spoke about this in his speeches. He talked about student loan.

[Kai]

But even then they shouldn't have implemented

[Brian Shapiro]

10% even if they it was either 10% or nothing.

[Kai]

Don't get all loans forgiven. Say that we agree that there won't be economic downsides to student loan forgiveness. That's a pretty complicated issue. But if we talk about so say that we agree on that. Even then I think that it's always wrong to help some people and not other people for arbitrary standards.

[Brian Shapiro]

So in a perfect world, I wish that it was 100.

[Kai]

Policy is designed to create the best world. Okay, so if it's better that way, then we should do it that way.

[Brian Shapiro]

Not with certain politicians.

[Kai]

Codification, that doesn't matter because they're not here. I'm right here. So we're all about. But you're making if codification is immoral,

[Brian Shapiro]

but what good is it? If politicians aren't doing that, what good is it?

[Kai]

What good is it? So people right here like me and you can make the points and change their mind. So let's ask the question.

[Brian Shapiro]

We're not going to complicate, but okay, codification is immortal.

[Kai]

Immoral and deportation, which I think we can agree is just if it could be done.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't know if it's necessarily immoral. I think it depends on a case by case basis, as I've told you.

[Kai]

Is it in any case immoral?

[Brian Shapiro]

Depends on the case. You'd have to talk to me about it. I think every single everyone.

[Kai]

And there's one case where it's immoral, then it's immoral inherently. We're talking about blanket codification. So if you're arguing for a codification like exclusion metric, where some people, you

[Brian Shapiro]

think welfare is immoral, what does that

[Kai]

have to do with anything?

[Brian Shapiro]

Because you're making the case if one person does it, then it's immoral. Here's why I'm bringing that up. Food stamps, welfare, government programs in general. There's always going to be a small percentage of people that are going to take advantage of the system. So just because a small percentage of people when it comes to this specific situation are taking advantage of it, that means just wipe everything out. I disagree with that.

[Kai]

Hold on. The difference is that I don't believe that anyone ought be codified. I think it's. I think we hear the, the morality of it. Every single person is taking advantage of the system because every single person subverted the law by hopping the border. And the people who we agree should be here as valid refugees in this scenario would not be deported into my ideal deportation scenario. And we're arguing in pure hypotheticals here, so you have to entertain that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, everything's hypothetical, of course.

[Kai]

What's the policy?

[Brian Shapiro]

Again, my opinion is, I think it should be a case by case basis. I've been pretty clear on that.

[Kai]

So do you agree now after this conversation, that in the case of the single man who came here and has no kids and is not a violent criminal, he should be deported?

[Brian Shapiro]

Explain to me again how long he's been here.

[Kai]

How long he's been here?

[Brian Shapiro]

He's not seeking asylum.

[Kai]

What point for you would that make him moral?

[Jackson]

He's.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, because you'd have a history. You'd have to be able to ask him, what have you done? How long have you been here? You're saying he doesn't have a family? You're saying he doesn't have a family?

[Kai]

Let's say he's been here for one day. Good. Okay, he's good.

[Brian Shapiro]

He's been here for one day. He came here illegally?

[Kai]

Yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

He doesn't have a family here. Okay, I'll answer your question this way. I'll be much more.

[Jackson]

I don't know if we can make it easier.

[Kai]

These are yes or no questions answered.

[Brian Shapiro]

I would be much more comfortable with deporting that individual than somebody that would be here with a family that has history.

[Kai]

Can I rephrase it? Do you believe yes or no Question. It's pretty simple that if that guy was here for literally one day, we should deport him.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's a difficult question for me to answer.

[Kai]

How is that difficult?

[Brian Shapiro]

The reason why. It's a difficult question for me to answer because in general terms, I don't think these are bad people. For America. I think it's for America.

[Jackson]

Okay, but.

[Kai]

But the policy.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't know why that's funny.

[Kai]

It's because. Okay, first off, we can get in this later. But the policy.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't know why that's funny.

[Jackson]

Hold on.

[Kai]

Why is it funny? Because it's absurdity.

[Jackson]

It's absurdity. If El Chapo.

[Brian Shapiro]

We're talking about.

[Jackson]

El Chapo came here, he would produce such economic.

[Brian Shapiro]

El Chapo to somebody that has. No, no, no, no, no.

[Jackson]

I'm not doing any comparison. What I'm doing is demonstrating the principle that economic growth is a sufficient justification for a person's illegal entry to the country.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, but we're not talking about El Chapo. We're not talking about a convicted criminal.

[Jackson]

We're not.

[Kai]

Even then. Even if we're not just the guy who came over.

[Brian Shapiro]

We're not. We're not talking.

[Kai]

The guy's over. This is a moral absurdity.

[Brian Shapiro]

I disagree. I think what you're doing is a moral absurdity.

[Jackson]

It's not a moral absurdity.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think what you guys are doing is a moral absurd.

[Kai]

Let's. So let's. After I explain this point, I will allow you to express why my position.

[Brian Shapiro]

Wait, hold on a second. Let's rewind a second. You're comparing. I almost. I almost said the F word. I'm trying to. I'm trying to. I'm trying to show you respect because I almost said the F word. But I'm showing you respect. Okay, I appreciate it. Okay, because you're being respectful and I appreciate that as well. You're comparing El Chapo to somebody who has no criminal history, who comes into this country.

[Jackson]

No, and the fact.

[Brian Shapiro]

Don't do that.

[Jackson]

And the fact that you think I've done that shows that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, why would you bring up El Cha. Chapo there?

[Jackson]

Well, if you would have allowed me to finish, I would have very.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, go ahead.

[Jackson]

I would have.

[Kai]

Go ahead.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm listening.

[Jackson]

And I'm. I'm sorry, man. I know we're way off. Right after this, I'm going to stick you to what he just said, which is I want you to define what is morally absurd about our position. Yeah, but the El Chapo example, you have used multiple Times during this debate, the amount of economic stimulus an individual adds to the United States as a reason for keeping them here despite their illegal entry. You just did that in the hypothetical case of this, you know, know, family less individual who's been here for one day.

[Kai]

He hasn't helped yet.

[Jackson]

Yeah, he has not helped. Yeah, he hasn't done a thing. But you qualified, you know, in order to say, well, we shouldn't deport him. The first question you asked was, well, what has he produced for the United States? My argument is there are people who could come to this country and produce so much economic stimulus, but it would still be wrong to have them in the country because fundamentally, like we've said so many times before, you would be rewarding the unjust and you would be punishing or, you know, the poor side of the equation would be suffered by the just, people who have gone and followed the laws, people who have done things properly. So that argument, and it's totally arbitrary, you could say any number of things. You could say, well, how much love has this individual produced in the United States? Love is a good thing. Well, we shouldn't deport them because of love. You're just choosing to focus on economic stimulus. But we've also already defeated the economic.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's one aspect.

[Jackson]

Well, exactly. It is one aspect.

[Brian Shapiro]

There are many aspects of why I don't have a problem with a lot of these people being here. One aspect.

[Jackson]

Here's the, the thing. You, you, you cannot agree with, or you have not yet agreed with deporting anybody.

[Brian Shapiro]

And in every. That's not true.

[Kai]

Well, he agreed. Violent offenders.

[Jackson]

True, true violent offenders.

[Brian Shapiro]

One of the first thing I said.

[Jackson]

Hold on, hold on. What if somebody, what if the violent offender, the violent undocumented immigrant, murdered somebody

[Brian Shapiro]

and they were good for the economy?

[Jackson]

No, no, no. They were convicted of murder, but they did so in a way that we could find morally justifiable. So let's say they went out of their way and they killed somebody who they thought was posing a threat to their family. Should they still be deported, reported?

[Brian Shapiro]

You just said they were a convicted murderer. If it was justifiable, then they wouldn't have been convicted.

[Jackson]

No, no, no, no, no. I said morally justifiable things could be illegal, but really justifiable. Like ceiling.

[Kai]

Right.

[Brian Shapiro]

They're a convicted felon.

[Jackson]

No, no, they're a convicted murderer.

[Brian Shapiro]

But we could felony. Yeah, okay.

[Jackson]

Yeah. Convicted felon. Perfect. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. I was thinking, I got confused.

[Brian Shapiro]

That'd be very clear.

[Jackson]

Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'll repeat it. Yes. If you are a convicted felon.

[Jackson]

Yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

I believe you should be deported no matter what that crime is. I'm being very clear.

[Jackson]

Perfect.

[Brian Shapiro]

Very clear on that.

[Jackson]

Yes. Yes. The problem is all of that's arbitrary. So can you agree that you do not believe in the deportation of anybody who is not a felon? Can you just agree to that? That's what you've been proving time and time again, every single hypothetical we've given you. So time and time again, you have been hearing why even deporting anybody who is not a.

[Brian Shapiro]

Here's why I feel that way because.

[Jackson]

Well, can you just say yes or no on that? I don't want to stick you to a yes or no, but please just answer the question.

[Kai]

I want to stick him to a

[Brian Shapiro]

yes or no right now. Now, in the climate that we are in right now, I would say no. However, there's a caveat to that. Okay. If there was an easier pathway to citizenship and there was a way that if they are deported. Okay, if they are deported. Let's just say every single undocumented immigrant today is deported, I would be somewhat okay with it. If we had laws put in place and a process that expedited them becoming naturalized citizens so they wouldn't have to wait 10 or 15 years to be reunited with their families. That's a very logical approach that I'm giving you, and I've tried to become very consistent on this approach. If you want all these people deported, if they. I completely disagree with you. I can't even bring up Donald Trump in this conversation because he's not in the room. But you talk. Just. But you just brought up El Chapo. But I can't bring up Donald Trump. You're an entire party. First of all, I can't even bring up Trump. He's the President of the United States. You're bringing up El Chapo.

[Jackson]

No, no, no. What we're saying, what we're saying.

[Brian Shapiro]

What is immoral about what I just said?

[Jackson]

Brian, Brian. I'll tell you why we're saying you shouldn't bring up Trump. It's because you are asking us to answer for something we don't agree with. You could say, well, well, the show.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why are you a Republican?

[Jackson]

Because I don't. Okay, hold on. First of all, my best identifier, I'm curious, is that I'm a child of God. Second of all, all I stand more to be a conservative, but what I align myself with are values rather than people. I'm not a Republican because of John Republic, who founded Republicanism. Or whatever.

[Brian Shapiro]

Values. Let's talk about values. I would love to do this.

[Jackson]

Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

And I was gonna bring up.

[Jackson]

I let it go too far.

[Brian Shapiro]

I wasn't gonna bring up Trump.

[Kai]

You.

[Jackson]

You've been.

[Brian Shapiro]

But I want to talk.

[Jackson]

I did not believe for a second, Brian, that you were not going to

[Brian Shapiro]

bring up Trump values of the Republican Party way before. Bring up Trump way. If, if we can. Because we've talked about immigration for like 90 minutes. 20, 30 minutes. Okay. And I know you wanted to bring up. We wanted to talk about a little bit. Okay, but, but you said you're. I wanted. Okay, let's talk about Republican values. Okay, sorry. Without me even bringing up Donald Trump. Why is it that Republicans consistently vote.

[Jackson]

Can you define Republicanism before we engage

[Brian Shapiro]

in the conservative values as I hear. Okay, okay. Christianity, which I assume you are.

[Jackson]

Does somebody have to be a Christian to be conservative?

[Brian Shapiro]

No. But you're a Christian, right?

[Jackson]

I am.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, thank you. What do you think about being gay?

[Jackson]

Perfect. This is a question directed at me. This is the way you do this discussion. We've gotten so far from immigration. I just want to acknowledge for everybody,

[Brian Shapiro]

we've done this for 90 minutes, but

[Jackson]

I think every, every single individual who has same sex attraction is a child of God. And I believe that they should not act on those sexual impulses.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, you believe that? Okay, fine. Yeah.

[Jackson]

You.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's fine.

[Jackson]

Correct, Correct.

[Brian Shapiro]

But how do you feel about The Republican Party 90?

[Jackson]

I think they, I think there are way too accepting of homosexuality in the Republican Party.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you think that. So what would be not accepting. What do you think they should do about that?

[Jackson]

I. I think that we should not have legalized gay marriage. I, I don't think that that should have been a part. So you're okay with the Republican Party?

[Brian Shapiro]

You're okay. What does it, what does Jesus say about judging people? I'm just curious.

[Jackson]

What did he says? That we should judge with righteous judgment.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. And you think that's righteous to judge other people that are not like you?

[Jackson]

No, hold on, hold on. Well, I'm actually, actually I haven't judged people.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes, you are.

[Jackson]

No.

[Brian Shapiro]

You're saying they shouldn't get marry each other. Why?

[Jackson]

I've made. Hold on. No, no. I've made a judgment of an action. You're right. I've judged whether or not they should do something. It's not a judgment of a person's heart.

[Brian Shapiro]

I didn't judge other sinners.

[Jackson]

Well, we're all sinners. Absolutely.

[Brian Shapiro]

So being gay is a sin.

[Jackson]

Hold on, hold on, hold On.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why can't you answer that?

[Jackson]

We're all sinners? I don't know. I. I did answer your question. I said that.

[Brian Shapiro]

So it's a sin.

[Jackson]

Well, let me, Let me be clear. Same sex attraction in and of itself is not sinful.

[Kai]

Sinful?

[Jackson]

My attraction to a woman is not sinful. It is the way that I act on those impulses, which is what I said. I said I do not believe that same sexual attractive people should act on those impulses. That's all I said. That is not a character judgment. That is not a judgment of an individual.

[Brian Shapiro]

What's an impulse? Sex. Having sexual. Attract.

[Jackson]

Sexual attraction. Yeah, okay, certainly.

[Brian Shapiro]

What about a man having sex with a woman?

[Jackson]

I've been sexually attracted to plenty of women and it would have been totally wrong for me to have engaged in sexual intercourse with them.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, there's obviously you're entitled to your beliefs on that and your behavior. And I would never tell you what you should or shouldn't do when it comes to sexual attraction.

[Jackson]

But you would certainly make a judgment as to whether or not what I am doing is good or bad based on your moral framework.

[Brian Shapiro]

Certainly when it comes to being attracted to somebody. No, it's not my business. Why do you care who people are attracted to?

[Kai]

Because.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because why do you care? Why do you give a crap?

[Jackson]

Well, I just want to be clear. I completely reject the framework that you can divorce culture, civilization and a nation from the actions of every individual in the privacy of our home. So being gay is a choice of their own home?

[Brian Shapiro]

You think it's a choice?

[Jackson]

A choice acting on same sex impulses? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so that is, I mean, well, action is a choice, so. Absolutely.

[Brian Shapiro]

So Richard Simmons was born straight, Is that what you're saying?

[Jackson]

Well, I'm not familiar.

[Brian Shapiro]

You think a man just wakes up or a 10 year old or a 15 year old just wakes.

[Jackson]

Hold on.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, it's. This is important.

[Jackson]

Brian, can you, can you repeat to me what I said five seconds ago?

[Brian Shapiro]

You said being gay, you believe it's a sin, right? Repeat what you said.

[Jackson]

I didn't actually.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, okay. I thought that's what you said because it sounded like you said you are against gay marriage. Correct? Right. And you think that conservatives are too accepting of gay people, which I think.

[Jackson]

No, no, no, no, no. I, I think they are too accepting of homosexuality in the conservative movement. And I specified specifically that. That is borne out in the fact that we have adopted legalized gay marriage as a party platform. I don't.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why are you against gay marriage?

[Jackson]

Okay. I'd like you again. I'm going to stick you to it. And then I do want to get to what's absurd about our moral position, because you're not going to make me forget about that.

[Brian Shapiro]

That.

[Jackson]

What did I say when you asked me? So you think gay people are sinners?

[Brian Shapiro]

I think you were judging their behavior.

[Jackson]

No, no. What did I say? I said we're all sinners. And then you asked me, you think being gay is a sin. What did I say?

[Brian Shapiro]

Did you say no?

[Jackson]

Correct.

[Brian Shapiro]

You don't believe it's a sin?

[Jackson]

Yeah, I said that. Sexual attraction in and of itself is not a sin.

[Brian Shapiro]

But acting on it is.

[Jackson]

Exactly.

[Brian Shapiro]

So why is it when a man acts on and has sex with a woman, that's morally okay with you?

[Jackson]

Well, it's actually not always morally okay.

[Kai]

Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's not.

[Jackson]

No, certainly not.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay.

[Jackson]

Like I talked about Trump.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why?

[Jackson]

Because extramarital and premarital sex is also immoral.

[Brian Shapiro]

What about my general.

[Jackson]

Sex in general is not immoral?

[Kai]

Of course not.

[Brian Shapiro]

So. So why would it be immoral for.

[Jackson]

Because there are contexts within which certain actions are inappropriate and appropriate. It is appropriate for me to have sex with my wife if I had one. It is not appropriate for me to have sex with another woman while I married with my wife, despite the fact that the attraction.

[Brian Shapiro]

Most people would morally agree with that. But why. But why do you believe in the separation between church and state?

[Jackson]

State them to an extent, but I think it's been misunderstood. That's a whole different issue. I'd like to stick you to the point of the moral absurd. But what is morally absurd about the position that we present?

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but hold on.

[Jackson]

What about it is morally absurd?

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, I want to answer that. But. But I just. I'm sure you do. I want to go to one more. Okay, we can talk about that.

[Kai]

Okay, wait, so I guess I don't.

[Brian Shapiro]

Let me answer his question. I'll answer his question and you're not going to like my answer.

[Jackson]

Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

You both have been very respectful to me, which I appreciate, and like. And like questions.

[Jackson]

I know we get heated, but.

[Brian Shapiro]

And. And I think you guys, I've talked to you off the air and let me be very clear, I don't put you in the same category as some people on the far right that I have debated. You guys are young, but I appreciate the fact that you're both engaged in politics. I think that's great.

[Kai]

Thank you.

[Brian Shapiro]

However, you both are privileged. Certainly you both were born into money. We were all born. No, no, no, no.

[Jackson]

No, no, no. We were all born. That is a privilege.

[Brian Shapiro]

Hold on a second. We were born in the United States of America. I agree.

[Jackson]

° no, we were. We were born at all.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes, yes.

[Kai]

I'd love to unpack this, but being

[Brian Shapiro]

born in the United States of America and looking the way we look, we're very lucky. Okay. I don't think. And I think this is where both of you struggle. You don't see life through the lens of other people that haven't had the opportunities that both of you had or have had. And I find that extremely problematic.

[Jackson]

You know how many judgments you've made of our lives?

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, so I asked. I didn't ask you.

[Jackson]

I didn't ask you. Well, but you're talking to me too. So you've made a lot of judgments.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't mind your background, but I apologize for saying that.

[Jackson]

But you've judged it.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, I made a mistake there. I misworded. I was. Specifically, I asked him. I did not ask you.

[Jackson]

Just.

[Kai]

He is privileged.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, I'm just giving my general sense of this conversation.

[Jackson]

I think all I'm trying to point out is that you're making lots of assumptions and it's assumption and it's ironic given the fact that what you are actually condemning us for is the fact that we assume and speak from a position of not knowing other people's difficulties. And then you proceeded to do exactly the same thing with us.

[Kai]

I'd like to say one thing.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but. Okay, I was gonna finish. Go ahead, go ahead.

[Kai]

Okay. So talking about the idea that, you know, the position you're in can change the morality of your action, I fundamentally reject this. I have a question. Do you believe that there are certain actions that are always bad regardless of circumstances?

[Brian Shapiro]

Absolutely.

[Kai]

Okay, so a good example is.

[Brian Shapiro]

Absolutely.

[Kai]

Let's talk about, like, let's talk about. This is a moral hypothetical. People use questions quite a lot. So say there is a judge, and a judge knows that a man committed some kind of crime, but the evidence was involved, so he couldn't use the evidence for that crime. So he knows this guy's like a murderer maybe, and he couldn't get him on that tri. On that crime. So then he decides, okay, I'm going to try him for like treason or crime he didn't commit and then convict him for that. Would that to you be a moral action?

[Brian Shapiro]

Do me a favor and repeat that one more time.

[Kai]

So can you basically, if there's a judge.

[Jackson]

Judge who?

[Kai]

I'm a judge. I know this guy committed a crime right but the evidence is thrown out.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because I believe in our justice system. Doesn't always get it right, but I believe in our pain illegally.

[Kai]

Do you believe that it'd be moral for that judge?

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, evidence. If evidence was obtained illegally, then that person would not be convicted, and there would be a hung jury or not hung jury. I'm sorry, it would be. It wouldn't go through the doors.

[Kai]

This is a moral ethical system. This is a trial by judge country.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Kai]

Would it be moral for the judge, then, to falsely convict the guy for, like, another crime that he committed with similar punishment in order to get the. The outcome that is more moral or just in your system?

[Brian Shapiro]

That's a really weird hypothetical. So, first of all, if there's evidence that's inadmissible. That's inadmissible.

[Kai]

Can you subvert the process Morally, not legally. Can you morally subvert the process of justice?

[Brian Shapiro]

You're talking about a different case, though. I mean, like.

[Kai]

No, no. But the point is, it's a logical. It's a direct syllogism. It's a direct.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, well, look, it's morally identical. I'm going again. I'm going to give you a general answer here. Our courts sometimes get it wrong, sometimes not intentional. Right. I think we could agree the courts aren't perfect, but for the most part, I believe in our system, which I do believe is targeted at sometimes for and helps people that are wealthy, people that are rich, people that look like you and me, rather than people that are brown, or people that are minorities, or people that can't afford good legal representation.

[Kai]

You just will refine it more. Say you're a judge and you can make all the decisions you want. There's no penalty. You are shown a video that is deemed later inadmissible, which shows a man murdering his wife. This video is now inadmissible.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why would it be inadmissible?

[Kai]

I don't know. This is a hypothetical. Okay, so the idea is, you know, someone committed.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why would the video be in the idea?

[Kai]

It's to decide whether or not duty.

[Brian Shapiro]

Give an example. Okay, well, what you're talking about, how would you have felt, Kyle Rittenhouse.

[Jackson]

How would you have felt if you did not eat breakfast this morning?

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, hold on a second. Gonna go to Kyle Rittenhouse for a moment.

[Jackson]

Wait, can you leave?

[Kai]

How would you have fell?

[Brian Shapiro]

I didn't today, actually. Okay, but. But can we finish hypothetical. Okay, but what you're talking about, I'm gonna direct it to Kyle Rittenhouse.

[Kai]

Can we say in the realm of the abstract. So we don't have to talk about Kyle Rittenhouse. I want to just finish.

[Brian Shapiro]

Sometimes judges make mistakes.

[Kai]

Okay. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay.

[Kai]

But if you're the judge, Brian, and you know someone did something wrong, obviously we agree it would be better if someone was in jail for doing something wrong.

[Brian Shapiro]

You have a duty.

[Kai]

Do you have a duty?

[Brian Shapiro]

A judge.

[Kai]

Do you have a duty?

[Brian Shapiro]

The judge doesn't decide whether someone's guilty or not.

[Kai]

Hypothetical, Brian.

[Brian Shapiro]

I know, but it's a. Brian, you're in a room.

[Kai]

You have a gun. Someone killed somebody. You're not. He's testing a logic, Brian. The logic is, can you use immoral means to get a moral outcome?

[Brian Shapiro]

So, again, your question doesn't make any sense to me. Hypothetical. You keep your question. Doesn't make any sense to me. Well, first of all, if you see someone on a tape murdering somebody, there's no way that that would be not admissible in a murder case if it was. Number two. Number two, a judge doesn't decide. A jury decides.

[Jackson]

I've got. Okay, I've got.

[Brian Shapiro]

You got to give me a better analogy. I've got it.

[Kai]

We'll fix it.

[Jackson]

We'll fix it. The evidence was submitted to later like, it is a perfect. It is a.

[Brian Shapiro]

That happened in the Bill Cosby case, and that's why he's out right now.

[Kai]

Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

Would it have been moral if it

[Kai]

have been moral if he frames Bill Cosby to get him in jail?

[Brian Shapiro]

No.

[Jackson]

No. He just gave the answer. You said it is wrong for Bill Cosby to be out of jail.

[Brian Shapiro]

But. But the prosecutors effed up. See how I said effed up there? I appreciate that the prosecutors effed up. And we should be angry at the prosecutors for not going by the standards at the courtroom.

[Jackson]

I agree.

[Kai]

But if the judge decided to frame him instead.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, obviously, that would be wrong. Yes, that would.

[Jackson]

Wrong.

[Kai]

Yes. We're here. So now we agree it is wrong to do immoral things to achieve a moral end.

[Brian Shapiro]

Your definition of immoral is very different than mine.

[Kai]

Okay. Our definition of immoral, we've made that very clear. Do you believe that justice is moral?

[Brian Shapiro]

Do I believe that justice is moral? In most cases? Sure. Of course.

[Kai]

Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

Absolutely. Depends what you define. What situation would be justice or not justice. Your definitions of words are very different than mine.

[Kai]

Loaded term justice means things in the right place. That's inherently subjective.

[Brian Shapiro]

Did Renee get justice?

[Kai]

What does that have to do with anything?

[Brian Shapiro]

Because your definitions of words are very different than my definition of what a word Is we don't agree in what. What justice is for certain people. We don't agree what moralities are for certain people. No, I don't think. No, I don't think we agree on the.

[Kai]

I don't think we're assumption of what justice is, which is that things should be here, should be there. Can we say that there's a system by which. That we should go through to get something done and the system has to be upheld and you can't.

[Brian Shapiro]

The problem, guys, just because the outcome is. More problem with this conversation is it's extremely subjective what you are doing.

[Kai]

Engage with an objective.

[Brian Shapiro]

I am up. I am engaging and I answered your question. But. But the problem I have is I think there are too many people in society that are very judgmental on others that haven't walked in their shoes.

[Kai]

Brian.

[Brian Shapiro]

I have to say that's the problem.

[Kai]

Have you ever killed somebody?

[Brian Shapiro]

Not that I know of.

[Kai]

Then why is it. And then how can you in your heart say that it's right for that man over there who killed someone, he really felt like he needed to do it. How can you say that that guy should be locked up. You haven't lived in his shoes. It's a direct syllogism. You haven't lived in his shoes.

[Brian Shapiro]

You don't know what it's like. Again, your analogies are crazy. You are trying to compare. No, it's not.

[Kai]

Hyperbole is a tool. There is philosophical discernment in analogy.

[Brian Shapiro]

Always. There is. It works. There is nothing comparable.

[Kai]

Identical.

[Brian Shapiro]

Identical, comparable. Whichever word you want to use. There is nothing identical or logical with a man or woman. Who, who needs to. Who needs to. Hold on a second, let me just finish my sentence. Who needs to put food on the table for their kids? Who steals $20 worth of food? And somebody that intentionally murders somebody. How can you try to compare the

[Kai]

dude you were saying is the exact same Fallacy. And the fallacy is that because I haven't been in dire situations or I haven't done a crime, that I can't say that the crime should be illegal. For example, legislating murder. Should it be the case that we cannot make murder illegal because everyone who's making that law has not committed murder?

[Brian Shapiro]

Like that's ridiculous.

[Kai]

It's a direct analogy. Do you know what analogy means? Yes, analogous.

[Brian Shapiro]

I know what a lot of the words you're using means. We just have very different definitions of what those words. Bizarre.

[Kai]

This is unfortunately philosophical. Direct comparison. Can you say that because you have not done a crime, you cannot Say that that crime is immoral. I feel as though we can both say that we've not done many crimes we've not lived in.

[Brian Shapiro]

So I'll answer that. I'll answer that. Hold on. I'll answer that. I'll answer that. And I'll go back to what I said earlier, and I'll answer that. The reason why I bring up you not being in that person's shoes, that person that is starving, that has to put food on the table for his family, is because you don't understand what that feels like and the position that that person is in now. We're not. Hold on, hold on, hold on. We're not talking about murder, okay? We're talking about shoplifting. Okay? People, store. I'm not. I'm not saying everybody should shoplift if they're hungry, but stores do have insurance. Nobody's dying. It's not a violent crime, and I'm not condoning it. But I'm also not going to say you are an immoral person because your family. I don't know. I mean, what I'm saying here is. I think most people would say it's pretty logical what I'm saying. I'm not condoning. Okay, well, you can call everybody immoral that shoplifts. Okay? Yes, you can do that if you would like to. Yes, I disagree with you.

[Kai]

Okay. Okay, let's talk about that.

[Brian Shapiro]

I disagree with you.

[Kai]

This is where I want to go to the. We're here. We agree that we disagree. So my question is, if we agree that we can't do. We can't use immoral means to reach moral outcomes.

[Brian Shapiro]

Depends on what it is.

[Kai]

Okay, so sometimes we do.

[Brian Shapiro]

Depends on what it is.

[Kai]

Okay, so here's the question. Question. How do you draw that lie?

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm just. I just told you. At what point.

[Kai]

No, no, you didn't. Yes, at what point, ideologically, you say that someone is in a situation where they deserve the privilege or the right, I guess, to do an immoral act.

[Brian Shapiro]

I didn't say they had the right.

[Jackson]

And whatever yet.

[Brian Shapiro]

Better yet, I never said that. What I did say. Wait, better yet, I'm understanding of it. And I wouldn't call that person an immoral person. Wait, hold on.

[Kai]

Just because you understand something, you can't say something. Okay, I understand people. People, for example, the Christian thing. I totally understand people who have premarital sex. I don't think it's moral. I totally understand people. I. I've been in a car, you know, before and had someone cut me off. I could understand someone.

[Brian Shapiro]

How old are you, by the way? I don't know how old you are.

[Kai]

I'm 19 years old.

[Brian Shapiro]

You're 19. So you voted in the last election?

[Kai]

No, I didn't.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why? Why not?

[Kai]

Was 17.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, so you weren't able to vote.

[Kai]

Okay, I wasn't.

[Brian Shapiro]

Who would you have voted for?

[Kai]

I don't know how this is related, but you know what?

[Brian Shapiro]

We can. It's very related.

[Jackson]

I would have related.

[Kai]

I would have voted for Donald Trump, however.

[Brian Shapiro]

And you want to.

[Kai]

Us.

[Brian Shapiro]

Wants preach to me about morals.

[Kai]

Okay, well, let's talk.

[Brian Shapiro]

You're laughing, but you guys can't defend this. Let's talk about this. How can both of you guys. How can you call yourself a Christian and vote for this?

[Kai]

Brian, I can say I have actually undergone a great transformation in my ideology since the 2024 election.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay.

[Kai]

the time, based off of what I knew, I felt very, very confident that Donald Trump would be the correct.

[Brian Shapiro]

Right now, who would you vote for, Kamala Harris or Donald Trump? Right now?

[Kai]

I would either not vote or probably

[Jackson]

vote for Kamala Harris.

[Brian Shapiro]

Harris. You would vote for Kamala Harris or I'd not vote.

[Kai]

I probably just wouldn't vote.

[Jackson]

Did you vote for Obama?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I did not.

[Kai]

Okay, I could say I probably.

[Brian Shapiro]

And I'll tell you why, since we're talking about morals, because I'm glad you brought that up.

[Kai]

He's escaping.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I'm not escaping anything. I think if anything, you're escaping.

[Kai]

I just told you. I just told you that I know most based on what I know.

[Brian Shapiro]

Now you're saying you wouldn't vote.

[Kai]

I'm saying that's escaping. No, no, it's not. Okay. Under Catholicism, harm reduction is. Is mixed over.

[Brian Shapiro]

When you came, why wouldn't you vote for Kamala Harris?

[Jackson]

Harris.

[Kai]

I wouldn't have voted for Kamala Harris.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kai]

Based off of what I know right now, it's hard to go back in hindsight, because in hindsight, a lot of Trump's promises were a lot better.

[Brian Shapiro]

Forget about Trump. Forget about Trump. What policies about Kamala Harris were you against?

[Kai]

What policies about Kamala Harris was against? I was mainly against the. She had a lack of economic policy descriptions. So I agree with some of. Yes, I agree with some of your.

[Brian Shapiro]

You know what she wanted to do with the tax bracket? Do you know what she wanted to do with. With the policies that she wanted to put in place when it comes to the economy? Under 400,000. Under $400,000 a year, householding income. She wanted to lower the tax bracket to 26%. She wouldn't have given the biggest tax breaks to the top 1%. I can tell you that right now. She wouldn't have done tariffs here.

[Kai]

Can we make it more clear? So going back, my only mixes up with Kamala Harris campaign. If we're talking about Joe Biden's economic strategy as opposed to some of Trump's economics. I can pick and choose and find points that I agree with more on Biden's side and more on Trump's side. And assuming that Kamala Harris would have been a continuation of that, I can say that it would have been tolerable to have our economic strategy and not have the war in Iran. Assuming that wouldn't have happened. Happened and not have what I see as a failure of mass deportations that has galvanized people like you against the idea of mass deportation in a way that I think is frankly immoral.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, I don't. I don't think that undocumented immigrants are. Are the threat to this country that you guys think they're a big threat

[Kai]

to rule of law, because rule of law collapse is one of the number one things that ruins empires and destroys civilizations.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't. I want to bring Kai back in

[Jackson]

for the last 10 minutes because you've been patient. Thank you.

[Brian Shapiro]

I wanted to talk about that, but I don't know. Know. Yeah, you know? Yeah, yeah.

[Jackson]

Why in the last 10 minutes I

[Brian Shapiro]

you want to do that? We could just clip form the last 10 minutes. I'm.

[Jackson]

I'm surprised to hear that that anybody is. Is like super in favor of illegal.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm in favor of people that are not breaking the law having the right to do what they want to do and not taking those rights away from them.

[Jackson]

Okay. So, you know, if heroin was legal, would you be in favor of that?

[Brian Shapiro]

Give me evidence. Is horrible for society.

[Jackson]

So it is one of the most addictive substances, particularly due to the age at which people are exposed, which is. No, no. The age of first exposure is on average.

[Brian Shapiro]

So that would be illegal. So that would be illegal. Well, hold on. I didn't say I support illegal.

[Jackson]

No, no, no.

[Brian Shapiro]

The League.

[Jackson]

Hold on. The itself is not illegal. What we're talking about is the way that policy influences accessibility. Right. So legalization of influences the availability of fee, which obviously is going to affect the amount and the rates at which fee is accessed by people who are underage.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, understood. Kai, I'm with you.

[Jackson]

Yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

If you're underage, you shouldn't get absolutely perfect.

[Jackson]

Awesome. Here.

[Brian Shapiro]

Here's let's talk about.

[Jackson]

Hold on, hold on. Here's the issue. We don't exist in a society where simply saying that you should not do something is going to stop people from

[Brian Shapiro]

doing people under the age of 16 that drive cars too. I can't control. Control that. You're right.

[Jackson]

But would you legalize. Would you legalize or make the driver's license age 12?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, you wouldn't.

[Jackson]

Of course not. So why would you legalize and make more accessible.

[Brian Shapiro]

We agree that. No, no.

[Jackson]

Can you answer that like that's it. That is another great analogy. If you, if you believe, if you

[Brian Shapiro]

want to talk about accessibility. Yeah, I would, I would agree with you on that.

[Jackson]

If you think it should be less accessible. Hold on.

[Brian Shapiro]

If you want higher standards to prove that you're of age, I would be okay with that. Perfect. I'm okay with a good start. So let's focus on the legal age. Now why is bad for legal?

[Jackson]

Well, I think is always bad. I, I think, I think destroys marriages. It increases perceptions of violence or rather the, the morality or, or the, I think, I think acceptance of violence.

[Brian Shapiro]

You can make the argument that sometimes can help a marriage that's struggling. So I would disagree with you on that.

[Jackson]

I think you can make every single

[Brian Shapiro]

take in the book.

[Jackson]

But I don't think that that would

[Brian Shapiro]

be so if a woman wants to show off her body and be an only fans model, which clearly you're against, which I find bizarre, sort of certainly

[Jackson]

just because you care about the consistency. I'm against men doing it too.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, that's fine. If a woman wants to do that and it's not against the law and she wants to show off her body and make money in doing so, why are you so against that? I just, I don't understand.

[Jackson]

Because the metric by which I oppose or agree with something is not simply based on whether or not the person wants to do it. Like I don't think hedonism should be our overarching moral philosophy.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why should you? But okay, if you don't want to watch, I completely. I would never force you. You have the right to be anti.

[Jackson]

Glad you would not want. I'm glad you would not force me to watch.

[Brian Shapiro]

But the point I'm trying to make is live your life and if you're anti. No problem. Now I'm going to be the first one to admit I'm not really into. I do go to the AVN Expo because I have a few people that are friends that are in the industry. I've never paid for in my life, people. Interesting caveat. Well, I'm just saying I'm not, I'm not coming from the aspect of. Of, oh my God, Brian loves. He's obsessed with it. I'm not.

[Jackson]

No, it doesn't.

[Brian Shapiro]

But what I am telling you is I don't like the government getting involved in other people's lives. We could be talking about abortion, which obviously I'm sure you're against.

[Jackson]

Do you believe there should be that. That any drug should be illegal?

[Brian Shapiro]

If, if there. First of all, it has been proven that there are certain substances and drugs that are extremely harmful. My sister died of a drug overdose.

[Jackson]

You're correct.

[Brian Shapiro]

So obviously there needs to be certain parameters put in place and there are certain drugs. Listen, I think doctors in general over prescribe people that are suffering from depression.

[Jackson]

Right. Specifically the drugs that are currently illegal. If I just really wanted to do heroin, and I'm not forcing that on anybody. It's like I want to take it because it makes me feel great. Why is the government, you know, comparing drugs with. Sir. Yes, that is a drug.

[Brian Shapiro]

Literally. Really? So can you give me an instance where somebody was watching. Watch pornography and they died because of it?

[Jackson]

Actually, yes. Actually, yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, I'd love to hear that.

[Kai]

It's.

[Jackson]

It's typically related in auto erotic asphyxiation, which is an offspring of sexual deviancy and obsession, which springs, by the way, graffy, because what it does is desensitize people to natural stimuli. So there's your example because you asked for it. But again, let's.

[Brian Shapiro]

Let's go back to drug. I just think that's.

[Jackson]

No, no, it is. It is a drug. It is a drug.

[Brian Shapiro]

There are a lot.

[Jackson]

Fee is a dick. Addictive is a drug.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think food is addictive. So should we ban food too?

[Jackson]

Well, this is actually a perfect example. Yeah, you should absolutely place limits. You should place limits on food. Yeah, we do it actually all the time. Are you, are you in favor of some of the restrictions. Let me finish. Yeah, actually, yes, but are you. Are you in favor of getting rid of the limits that we place on the production of food that the department of. What is it? Yeah, the fda. Yeah, the Food and Drug Administration. The Food and Drug Administration places limits and places specific boundaries on how food can be produced, what kind of nutrients it has to have. We put excess labels. They do that all over Europe and in Argentina. Do you think we should get rid of all of those?

[Brian Shapiro]

I think it's good to have certain standards when it comes to certain products that are. That are Exceptionally horrible for you.

[Jackson]

Perfectly.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes. But I don't think we should also stop people from buying chocolate, which we know in general. Chocolate's not good for you. Sodas in general.

[Jackson]

What about cigarettes?

[Brian Shapiro]

There's a lot of things in life.

[Jackson]

Should we stop people from buying cigarettes? Cigarettes. If they really want to smoke.

[Brian Shapiro]

Cigarettes. I certainly don't think cigarettes are very good for society. But if you're going to ban cigarettes, then weed has to be illegal. Perfect. So you think all that stuff should be illegal? Absolutely. Everything.

[Jackson]

Absolutely.

[Brian Shapiro]

So. So alcohol.

[Jackson]

I'm actually. Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

No alcohol.

[Jackson]

Yep.

[Brian Shapiro]

Wow. I mean, that would. I mean, I mean, life would be okay.

[Jackson]

It would be a dream. In fact, you know, far fewer, far few.

[Brian Shapiro]

Far fewer people.

[Jackson]

There'd be less domestic violence. You would have far fewer people who would be destroying property.

[Brian Shapiro]

Public involved in every. Everything. All right, so in Kai's life, I.

[Jackson]

I just think that it should be easier for good people to live good lives.

[Brian Shapiro]

So on a. Kai's life, I think

[Jackson]

right now we push vices onto people and we expect them to get out Scotch free. But in this day and age, there's not a single child who is going to get out of his teenage years without having seen likely.

[Brian Shapiro]

So. So respectfully, I'm at. Are you married?

[Jackson]

No, not yet.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. Do you believe in sex before marriage?

[Jackson]

Do I believe it exists or do I believe people should do it? I think I've. I've answered that, I think three times.

[Brian Shapiro]

Are you a virgin? Yes, I am. Okay, so in Kai's life, nobody should have sex until they're married. Hold on, hold on. Yes, hold on. Let's just, let's just backtrack a little bit. In Kai's life. Hold on.

[Jackson]

I just answered.

[Brian Shapiro]

In Kai's life, no sex until marriage based. No sugar products or anything that are proven to. To be bad for you.

[Jackson]

I'm rage baiting you a little bit. Hold on, hold on. But I finish. I'm clarifying, I'm clarifying.

[Brian Shapiro]

Life seems to be extremely exciting in the, in the eyes through Kai. No sex. Well, actually no drugs. Listen, if you want to.

[Jackson]

I do think life can be exciting without sex and drugs.

[Brian Shapiro]

If you want to live that. In my opinion, if you want to live. Live that life, which I find to be extremely boring, then you have the

[Kai]

right to do that.

[Jackson]

You know, I think it's unfortunate.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think your life. I think that's sad.

[Jackson]

You think it's sad that I don't have sex or do drugs or drink alcohol? You think that's sad?

[Brian Shapiro]

I think it's sad that you want to tell other people and make judgments about other people what you think they should. If you want to live that life, that's fine. But I'm making judgments now because you're making judgments about people that want.

[Jackson]

No, I haven't done that, Brian. I haven't done that. What I've done this entire time, as I've said, not judging the content of these people's character.

[Brian Shapiro]

No drinking, no sex, no weed, no anything.

[Jackson]

Yes, yes. But, Brian, do you think I look at somebody who is, you know, who is a drug addict, and do you think I look at them and say, what a terrible person. Hold on, hold on. Do you think I look at that person and say, what a terrible person? No, I look at a person who is a victim of a system that has pushed drugs into their lives. This happens with opiates, and it also happens with illegal drugs.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's a different thing.

[Jackson]

Yeah, I understand, but in every drugs that. Obviously, in every single case, I look at the people who are addicted to vices, and I wish we could have done something to make those vices less accessible.

[Brian Shapiro]

A lot of people. There's a lot of people that would say they don't have a sex vice. They're not addicted.

[Jackson]

There's a lot of people who would

[Brian Shapiro]

say that, and they're lying. Okay, so everybody that watches is not

[Jackson]

what I said, but I. I think there are way more people who watch porn that are addicted to porn than people who are.

[Brian Shapiro]

What about the people that aren't? You want to take it away from them?

[Kai]

I have a question, though. What about people who aren't addicted to cocaine and use it occasionally?

[Brian Shapiro]

Again, you're comparing a product that is proven to kill people, which I think is a very similar analogy.

[Kai]

So the. What makes. What makes cocaine like. Like, we're talking about, like, immorality. And I. I actually am a little bit less radical on the View than Kai. But, like, even then, if you're talking about Kai's statement of morality, the morality of them is the same because it's a action that is deemed bad. Just because you're not killed doesn't mean it's bad. Like, if there was a drug that disfigured you or made you weirder or made you lose brain cells, that's bad, too.

[Brian Shapiro]

There are certain drugs that are obviously more harmful than others. We can certainly agree. And cocaine is a drug that is an extremely harmful drug that has killed millions of people.

[Kai]

Where do you draw the line, though? On.

[Brian Shapiro]

Here's where I draw the Line when harm's okay. Sure, sure, sure. So there are some people that would make the argument that marijuana is very bad for you and it is a gateway drug to other drugs. There are other doctors with. And people that are in this industry that have far more medical.

[Jackson]

You know who they're paid off?

[Brian Shapiro]

Me and you.

[Jackson]

You know who they're paid off?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, no, sir. No, sir. I know.

[Jackson]

Paid off by the wheel.

[Brian Shapiro]

Not true, not true. Because I know people. Again, this comes to life experience. I have friends of mine and people that are in this industry that are no longer in it, that are retired, that aren't getting paid from anybody that would tell you that marijuana has a lot of. Of things that help people, help people with different diseases, helping people with pain. There's. Listen, it's. Again, it's a case by case basis, but nobody can compare marijuana to cocaine, which. Cocaine is a far more serious drug.

[Jackson]

Yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's done far more harm for people.

[Jackson]

So, Brian, you and I don't disagree. I'm being a little hyperbolic. But what Jackson's saying, this is absolutely true, is that you have things that are worse and things that are maybe not as bad, but that doesn't mean that you can't limit, limit access to those things. And I would add, you know, on this issue, and this is what I think is incredibly predatory, you have a society now where young women who are in their teens are groomed with this idea and the availability, Right. Of a life of luxury, of all of these things that they would want, and the only thing they have to do is sell their bodies as a commodity. First of all, I think there's a bit of an issue with that. But second of all, you have case after case where women are groomed before they are 18 to start doing that the moment they turn 18. There are Disney actors, Disney actresses.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's all uncut.

[Kai]

That's wrong.

[Jackson]

Hold on, hold on. But what it recognizes is that this industry affects people far before the age that they should legally be accessing it. And I think it is a completely, and this is the operative word here, it is a coercive force. We should limit coercive forces so that agency, the ability to choose between right and wrong is maximized in our society.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, so if somebody is groomed into something.

[Jackson]

Yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

Then obviously I disagree with that. Yeah, but hold on, hold on. Kai, how many strippers have you ever talked to in your life?

[Jackson]

A couple, actually.

[Kai]

A couple.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, so have you asked them and you've gotten into questions about why they got into the industry? Or were they all groomed or was it their personal decision?

[Jackson]

A lot of them, a lot of them claim it was because of, you know, it was going to provide them financial independence. I think financial independence is one of the best ways to groom people. It is to tell them, I'm going to give you a lot of money.

[Brian Shapiro]

If you do that.

[Jackson]

Well, especially if you're young and impressionable, you're say a lot of money.

[Brian Shapiro]

Absolutely. While it's a case by case basis, I also know some people in this industry.

[Jackson]

You think Trump is that. By the way, you do think that

[Brian Shapiro]

you just brought up Trump now.

[Jackson]

Yeah, yeah. Correct.

[Kai]

Because his eyes lit up.

[Jackson]

This is the argument that you made.

[Brian Shapiro]

What was the argument about Trump?

[Jackson]

That Trump would groom women who were young into, you know, this?

[Brian Shapiro]

I never said that. Okay. Do you not believe, here's, do you

[Jackson]

not believe that Trump was grooming younger women?

[Brian Shapiro]

Here's what I will say about Trump and women. Again, we got to close off soon, so. Yeah, I mean, you know, we know his sexcapades. We know. I'm against all of what he said. Well, I mean, you know, the entire party that you're in voted him in. Well, I, 6 out of 10 Republicans still think he won the 20 election.

[Jackson]

I also, I also don't believe that you vote on an individual because you agree with their moral character entirely.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you're.

[Jackson]

I don't think there's probably a single president in the last four decades that is entirely of exonerable moral character.

[Brian Shapiro]

Never said that. But.

[Jackson]

No, no, you're right.

[Brian Shapiro]

But income, terrible. The man that is Donald Trump.

[Jackson]

So I think, I think that, give me some examples in Libya are like, just as comparable, if not possibly worse. Worse than impropriety in sexual relations.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. So people would say, I think killing

[Jackson]

people in foreign wars. Yeah, I think, well, that's what Trump

[Brian Shapiro]

is doing right now.

[Jackson]

Well, he's doing that right now. But Obama did that 10 years ago.

[Brian Shapiro]

Right. So what war did Barack Obama get us in?

[Jackson]

No, no, I'm talking about the extrajudicial bombings in Libya. I think those were absolutely wrong and I think those are actually worse than impropriety.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, so, so you, you disagree with, with what Barack Obama did.

[Jackson]

Yes, but, but I don't believe that a Democrat has to absolutely abstain from voting for Obama because they don't believe that every part of his life. Life is completely.

[Brian Shapiro]

We're not talking about every part of his life.

[Jackson]

I think you are.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, here's what we are talking about.

[Jackson]

You're drawing an arbitrary line of which things make one disqualifiable and which ones don't. But then you're putting it in a framework of a two party system.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes.

[Jackson]

Wherein you have to compete between options.

[Brian Shapiro]

So. So you do that. You did have two options. And if you're making the argument that, well, I like some of Donald Trump's policies and I'll forget about his ties to the Epstein files and the sexual abuse and the felonies and the fact of the discrimination lawsuit and Trump. That's what people do with Obama attacking. Really? Did Barack Obama ever attack a POW and say I don't respect him because he was captured? Is Barack Obama in the Epstein files? Was he hanging out with child predators? You tell me. Is Barack Obama a felon? You tell me. Is Barack Obama the guy that cheated on every woman he's ever.

[Jackson]

Mr. Morrill, did Barack Obama hang out with Bill. Hold on. Did Barack Obama hang out with Bill Clinton?

[Brian Shapiro]

Did Barack Obama hang out with Bill Clinton?

[Jackson]

Bill Clinton is in Epstein files. Bill Clinton is by proxy by the transitive property a sexual predator. Obama hangs out with sexual predators. You've made your own case.

[Brian Shapiro]

So first.

[Jackson]

How ridiculous.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, no, no, hold on, hold on. Bill Clinton is a sexual predator.

[Jackson]

Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

Was it was ever proven in a court. Was he ever found liable?

[Jackson]

I think.

[Brian Shapiro]

Hold on, I'll spare you.

[Jackson]

I'll spare you.

[Brian Shapiro]

By the way, the answer is no.

[Jackson]

I'll spare you the minutiae about this. I think that you're a Christian man. I think that almost every single politician is. Is liable for some kind of sexual.

[Brian Shapiro]

Compare Donald Trump. Oh, really? Yeah. What was Barack Obama sexual impropriety? Hold on.

[Jackson]

Again, this is Joe Biden.

[Brian Shapiro]

This isn't a statement.

[Jackson]

Let's be clear. This isn't a statement. I'm basing on convictions. I think the majority.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, no, no, no. I'm talking about accusations. What. Where's Barack Obama been accused of sexual impropriety?

[Jackson]

Hold on, hold on. I could probably pull up a list of them when I pulled up as the example with Bill Clinton, but that doesn't.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't defend. I think he's a scumbag. I would never vote for him. Would you say the same about Donald Trump? I think was a scumbag?

[Jackson]

Well, yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

Your entire party.

[Jackson]

I think, I think within moral character. Yeah, absolutely. He's a piece of garbage.

[Brian Shapiro]

You would with agree degree?

[Jackson]

No, I don't make moral character judgments.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, okay. What about a child predator or a pedophile in general? Was, was heart. Was, was. Is Harvey Weinstein a. A piece of human garbage. No, Jeffrey Epstein.

[Jackson]

I don't call anybody a piece of human garbage.

[Brian Shapiro]

So Jeffrey Epstein isn't.

[Jackson]

I think that is a despicable.

[Brian Shapiro]

Raping a child is not.

[Jackson]

I don't make you a piece.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't.

[Jackson]

I don't make. And you're like being specific about it because you think.

[Brian Shapiro]

Very specific.

[Jackson]

Yes, I know, because you're trying to generate a clip, but.

[Brian Shapiro]

Trying to generate any clip.

[Jackson]

No, absolutely.

[Brian Shapiro]

You are. All I've been doing, I don't edit my own videos. I don't generate content.

[Jackson]

All I've been doing this entire time is affirming the same Christian ethic that I've applied consistently throughout. Whether it's with both of us, whether it's with.

[Brian Shapiro]

Does Donald Trump have ethics?

[Jackson]

I'm telling you mine.

[Kai]

You're going with Trump. Can we please have Donald Trump and

[Jackson]

debate you if somebody. Yeah, if somebody took a shot, sure. He would debate. You know, speaking of this whole alcohol issue, speaking of the whole issue of substances, I hope nobody's doing a drinking game. And it's based on the number of

[Brian Shapiro]

times I'm like you. I don't want to tell people what they should or shouldn't do or what I think is morally wrong as far as drinking.

[Jackson]

I'll do it. I'll do it right now. I think people.

[Brian Shapiro]

People.

[Kai]

Yeah, you do.

[Jackson]

I think people, I think, should go to the gym. I think people should not do illegal drugs. I don't think people should abuse opiates. I don't think people. People should view fee. And I think if every single person abided by every single thing I just said, the society would be far off. Better for it.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think life would be very boring. We'd be living a very boring life. No sex before marriage. We'd have a lot of people that are backed up. Kai. I think you're backed up.

[Jackson]

Ryan. I think it is incredibly sad that we've gotten to a point in our society where you do not believe an individual can have fun without having sex.

[Brian Shapiro]

Obviously, I'm being a little bit facetious. And by the way, I don't do drugs, so I'm being. I'm being extremely facetious.

[Jackson]

No nicotine.

[Brian Shapiro]

I've never been a drug person. I smoke a cigar once in a while. I go to a cigar bar once in a while. But you don't inhale. I've done marijuana a few times in my life. Doesn't. I don't react well to it.

[Jackson]

I don't enjoy it.

[Brian Shapiro]

No. I don't do any of that.

[Jackson]

Okay, good.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't do any of that stuff. I enjoy music. I enjoy sports. That was my drug growing up, playing sports. I'm also not from that cloth. I'm not a druggie. I don't. I don't do drugs. I'm not a big porn person. Yes. I've gone to a few strip clubs here and there. I'm not gonna lie to you. I have friends that are only fans.

[Jackson]

Models pushed you on it, depressed you.

[Brian Shapiro]

But. But I don't. The difference between you and me is I don't like to tell other people, you shouldn't be doing this, this or this.

[Jackson]

I think the. The difference between.

[Brian Shapiro]

If you want to be a version at the age of 50, I'm not gonna. I'll be like, hey, that's your.

[Jackson]

Well, I don't want to be a virgin at the age of 50.

[Brian Shapiro]

I know, but my point is, in a normal conversation, I'm not looking at you and saying. Saying, oh, well, Kai's a virgin. You know, I want you to be able to.

[Jackson]

Because, you know, I want you to

[Brian Shapiro]

be able to live your life.

[Jackson]

It would be. Yeah, you know what?

[Brian Shapiro]

But I disagree.

[Jackson]

I'd be like you any day of the week, but you can never be

[Brian Shapiro]

like, but you know what? I think God. I think God gave us the parts that we have. Yeah. And to be able to enjoy each

[Jackson]

other in a proper context.

[Brian Shapiro]

And you admit.

[Jackson]

In a proper context.

[Brian Shapiro]

And I don't see anything wrong like that. Like, it's consensual and, you know, let's close it off.

[Jackson]

Final point.

[Brian Shapiro]

Final point.

[Kai]

Point.

[Jackson]

Okay. Yeah. Anyway, so, you know, we. We went way off the immigration issue.

[Brian Shapiro]

We did a little bit.

[Jackson]

I think. Yeah. I think the problem is we just A little bit. Yeah. As when. When we can't engage in hypotheticals, it really is difficult to. To arrive at kind of a substantive moral argument. And I think if you base your entire political framework off of a president rather than off of policies, it becomes super difficult to, you know, talk about issues because issues transcend presidencies. As for the last part that we were talking about, I am interested in making this a country where it is easier for good people to live good lives. And there are plenty of ways in which we apply limits to people's abilities to do what they want to do, because we think that it would be better for them, and we think it would be better for the society at large. And I do not think it is at all unreasonable to limit the production of. Including make illegal the production of things like which are a coercive force that make people addicted. They cause. They create addicts. Well, I mean, this is borne out as well in the evidence. But what I think is. Is most important is that it limits their agency. I want a society that does have freedom, but it's freedom to pursue moral acts free of coercion. And the problem is right now we live in a coercive society. We live in a. In a society where drugs, alcohol are super easy to get. Can I just give. That's a huge problem.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Kai]

And it'll.

[Brian Shapiro]

Two minute. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. First of all, thank you guys both for being here. This has been a lively debate, that's for sure.

[Kai]

Thank you.

[Brian Shapiro]

You said you want good people to live good lives. I think good people can be fined as not just American citizens. I think there are good people all over the world. There are people in this country that are undocumented, that are good people. I want them to live good lives and I want it to be easier for them. And if you deport every single person in this country, country that is undocumented, you're making their lives far worse. These are good people and you're making them lives worse. It's also, I feel an unfair judgment to say it's bad for everybody. There are studies that I can show you that is bad. Well, I can also tell you that there are some men that maybe might not have luck with women. Some women that might not have luck with men. And they enjoy it and they're not addicted to it. Now, there are always going to be cases and exceptions where people that do have addiction. Addictions. I agree with you. But there are also plenty of people who have been married for 20, 30, 40 years, and maybe they take their wife to a strip club. I don't know. Maybe they do other extracurricular activities and they could. I would tell you, because I've talked to some of these people, that their marriages are stronger because of it. So what I. That the fundamental difference is I don't want to tell what other people what to do. If you don't want to have sex until marriage, I totally support you in doing that. You have the right to do that. Whether it's your religion. I don't care. Care. You have the right to make that decision for yourself. But I don't want to judge you on that. Okay. I made a joke earlier about boring. I was being facetious, but. But you have that right. And I wouldn't. Attack is the wrong word. I wouldn't judge you for that. Okay? He's a religious guy. He. This is what he believes in. Great. Just like I wouldn't judge somebody if they slept with a lot of people before marriage. It's their right to do so, so long as it's consensual. This is the problem. I have a religion. Religion and going back to good. You want good people living good lives. I think you genuinely believe that, but you're not applying it to everybody, just American citizens. And I find that extremely problematic. And the last thing I will say, you know, I agreed to doing this debate, and I certainly don't regret it. Because you guys wanted to talk about immigration. I tried to do the best I could in staying on topic, but I think there are far. My opinion, far more serious and prevalent, Prevalent topics to be discussing now than undocumented immigrants, the war in Iran, our economy, gas prices. There are so many things that we could discuss right now. If you really care about money and saving money in this country, then maybe we should be talking about $2 billion that we're spending every day. Imagine what that money could. Could be used to help Americans in this country that are struggling. So I know you guys aren't pro maga. That's cool. I appreciate that. That. But, yeah, I mean, I want. I agree with you in general. I want good people to. To. To live good lives, but to me, that doesn't only include American citizens. So I appreciate the conversation. I can be honest with you, and this is knocking on me and complimenting. You know, when I was in my early 20s, I couldn't even tie my shoe, so I didn't know what political party I was in. I was getting my career started in radio. I didn't know if I was a liberal. I think it's great that you guys are active. I see some of your videos on social media. Media. We are in the same circles. We know some of the same people. And, and, you know, the people. I wouldn't have done this if I didn't hear from certain people that said a lot of nice things about you. They said you were a good guy. And. And it'll be a, you know, respectful debate, which, Which I appreciate. As, you know, sometimes in my videos, I get very heated with people. Very heated. It's part of my. I don't know, aura, I guess. I don't know. So hopefully I. I gave you guys respect, too.

[Kai]

Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

And I appreciate the conversation. And. And I would love to have a debate about Donald Trump. Of course.

[Jackson]

Absolutely.

[Brian Shapiro]

Braxton. Thanks.

[Kai]

You want to say anything, Jackson?

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

[Kai]

I guess just to sum it up, I think Kai covered almost all of it. I think the core of my argument is that if we have mass deportations we have a lot of illegal immigrants that are here. There's three options. There's to keep them, there's to deport them, there's to codify them. And we agreed that keep and codify were both immoral in this scenario. I say what should laws do? Well, we agreed that laws should be good and just and prioritizing citizens citizens. So therefore I think it follows that mass deportations are the moral correct decision for the American justice system to go through.

[Brian Shapiro]

Perfect. We'll link all your socials below. Thanks for coming on guys.

[Jackson]

Hey thank you very much.

[Brian Shapiro]

Thanks Sean.

[Kai]

Thanks for watching to the end guys. Please comment below your thoughts on the

[Jackson]

episode if you agree. If you disagree, I'd love to hear it. I read every single comment. Means a lot to me.

[Brian Shapiro]

Thank you so much.